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View Full Version : Raistlin v.s Tzeentch



DarthArminius
2008-05-18, 08:36 PM
http://www.electricferret.com/battle/cbub_matches/518-18437.php

Raistlin Majere, and Tzeentch.

Both extremely intelligent and powerful sorcerers. Daresay equals in my eyes.

Tzeentch has more in his grip of power than just magic, but Raistlin is extreme in both his power of sorcery and his wit as an opponent.

puppyavenger
2008-05-18, 08:55 PM
http://www.electricferret.com/battle/cbub_matches/518-18437.php

Raistlin Majere, and Tzeentch.

Both extremely intelligent and powerful sorcerers. Daresay equals in my eyes.

Tzeentch has more in his grip of power than just magic, but Raistlin is extreme in both his power of sorcery and his wit as an opponent.

some points to remember
1. Tzeetch is imortal aslong as there is asapient being that feels ambition or hope, or who plans or usesmagic.
2. Tzeetch has no physical body
3. Tzeetch has a servant with perfect oruculer abilities( the oracle of Tzeetch)
4. Tzeetch has a literaly numberless army of world destroying demons to call on.

Kyeudo
2008-05-18, 09:13 PM
some points to remember
1. Tzeetch is imortal aslong as there is asapient being that feels ambition or hope, or who plans or usesmagic.


This right here means Raistlin loses. Raistlin is nothing if not ambitious.

DarthArminius
2008-05-18, 09:36 PM
I disagree on the grounds that Raistlin's being the omnipotent god of his universe means not only did he defeat typical D&D deities, but also the High God and Chaos as well..

Chaos probably loses to some gods in Wh40,000, but High God could probably oppose them.

warty goblin
2008-05-18, 10:00 PM
The annoying thing about Raistlin in vs. threads is that it's never clear exactly what he can do- and not just because the books are vague on the subject either. Rather it's his disturbing ability to do the impossible which makes quantifying his powers something of an exercise in frustration.

Also note that Raistlin is capable of wiping the life from an entire planet simply because it gets caught in the crossfire. If he needed to kill every living thing in the universe in order to accomplish his ends, I'm fairly certain he would do it, seeing as planicide is something of an acceptable byproduct of his goals already.

Rutee
2008-05-18, 10:23 PM
HIs schtick is supplanting deities, right? Theoretically, can't he just supplant Tzeentch?

DarthArminius
2008-05-18, 10:41 PM
Raistlin is not exactly the Karsus of Krynn.

Yes, he could hypothetically supplant Tzeentch, but if Raistlin is at fully power, he may already be at least as powerful as Khorne.

LBO
2008-05-19, 01:28 AM
Raistlin wins. Tzeentch's response? Just as planned...

Revlid
2008-05-19, 03:42 AM
Agreed. Tzeentch can out-Xanatos Xanatos.

The Changer of Ways wins.

Thangorodrim
2008-05-19, 04:15 AM
HIs schtick is supplanting deities, right? Theoretically, can't he just supplant Tzeentch?

How ? He's certainly not an entity that operates on remotely the same scale, even at his most powerful, most D&D deities aren't either, and have relatively tiny worshipper bases.

The mechanism isn't there for Raistlin either, i.e to lure Tzeentch out onto the mortal plain, forcing it into a vastly inferior "avatar" form is basically impossible, all you'd get is the Daemonic equivalent of a finger puppet at the most.

If Raistlin wants to play on Tzeentch's homeground, he better have the mojo to wipe out planets simply by speaking, because thats the level of power Tzeentch gets to play at in there.

Raistlins best offering is a world laid waste as far as the eye can see, which isn't particularly far, and theres no time scale or mechanism put on it, and this is also a result of a two way battle.


but if Raistlin is at fully power, he may already be at least as powerful as Khorne.

Very unlikely.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-19, 04:49 AM
How ? He's certainly not an entity that operates on remotely the same scale, even at his most powerful, most D&D deities aren't either, and have relatively tiny worshipper bases.

The mechanism isn't there for Raistlin either, i.e to lure Tzeentch out onto the mortal plain, forcing it into a vastly inferior "avatar" form is basically impossible, all you'd get is the Daemonic equivalent of a finger puppet at the most.

If Raistlin wants to play on Tzeentch's homeground, he better have the mojo to wipe out planets simply by speaking, because thats the level of power Tzeentch gets to play at in there.
Raistlin has Epic Spell Casting. He can create Solar Systems on a whim. Wiping out planets is a free action that takes no effort.


Raistlins best offering is a world laid waste as far as the eye can see, which isn't particularly far, and theres no time scale or mechanism put on it, and this is also a result of a two way battle.
Again, if it has Epic Casting it wins. D&D epic casting becomes unbounded, it has no upper limit and no learning curve.


Very unlikely.
Does Korn shoot stars at his enemies? And can he survive taking a star to the face? Because with epic magic Raistlin sure can.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-19, 05:05 AM
Raistlin has Epic Spell Casting. He can create Solar Systems on a whim. Wiping out planets is a free action that takes no effort.


Again, if it has Epic Casting it wins. D&D epic casting becomes unbounded, it has no upper limit and no learning curve.


Does Korn shoot stars at his enemies? And can he survive taking a star to the face? Because with epic magic Raistlin sure can.

Just as planned.

Thangorodrim
2008-05-19, 05:37 AM
Raistlin has Epic Spell Casting. He can create Solar Systems on a whim. Wiping out planets is a free action that takes no effort.

Man, thats funny. :smallbiggrin:


Again, if it has Epic Casting it wins. D&D epic casting becomes unbounded, it has no upper limit and no learning curve.

With an idiotic and frankly dishonest approach to things, sure. Given that we don't have any evidence for Raistlin managing this, its bollocks, as I'm sure you must be perfectly aware.


Does Korn shoot stars at his enemies? And can he survive taking a star to the face? Because with epic magic Raistlin sure can.

Taking you seriously for the moment, Khaine, who was the pre War in Heaven eldar aspect of Khorne, fought the Nightbringer one on one. The C'tan could use black holes as anti-solar system weapons at the height of their power, drain stars of energy in a matter of days etc.

Actually challenging a chaos god on its own turf means it has essentially unlimited power, so the Stars raistlin slings at Khorne or Nurgle dissolve into pretty flowers :smallwink:

Heck, even in the Eye of Terror, which is partially realspace, Greater Daemons can rearrange planets into pretty roses, then rearrange the stars and solar systems of a cluster into a pretty rose shape as well.

Just because

There, and mines not even a load of crap derived from game mechanics either, it all actually happens :smallwink:

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-19, 05:49 AM
Man, thats funny. :smallbiggrin:

With an idiotic and frankly dishonest approach to things, sure. Given that we don't have any evidence for Raistlin managing this, its bollocks, as I'm sure you must be perfectly aware.
No. You don't get it. If Raistlin has epic spell casting he can do this stuff.


Taking you seriously for the moment, Khaine, who was the pre War in Heaven eldar aspect of Khorne, fought the Nightbringer one on one. The C'tan could use black holes as anti-solar system weapons at the height of their power, drain stars of energy in a matter of days etc.
And with epic magic I can create a Sol sized star as a standard action (roughly 1 every 4 seconds). Creating a black hole takes 4,000 seconds (for smallish ones), or roughly 66 minutes. If you felt like it you could add in "moves black holes with his mind" as an ability as well.


Actually challenging a chaos god on its own turf means it has essentially unlimited power, so the Stars raistlin slings at Khorne or Nurgle dissolve into pretty flowers :smallwink:
Really. And when Raistlin has a perfectly loyal army that doubles in size every round and with every solider being just as powerful as him the Chaos god can stop them?


Heck, even in the Eye of Terror, which is partially realspace, Greater Daemons can rearrange planets into pretty roses, then rearrange the stars and solar systems of a cluster into a pretty rose shape as well.
And with epic spell casting you don't need to rearrange, you can if you want, as you just make new solar systems.


Just because

There, and mines not even a load of crap derived from game mechanics either, it all actually happens :smallwink:
Yes and what I am talking about actually happens. You ever notice how the fictitious epic wizards in D&D can do whatever they feel like on a whim? It's the same thing.

Raistlin has never had a reason to throw a star at any body, or create a black hole, but that doesn't mean he can't.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-19, 06:01 AM
Tippy, your points are true, but while you can use D&D stuff, we can use WH40K stuff.

I can rather envisage Raistlin trying to pull the 'supplanting a god' trick, succeeding, but then ending up becoming Tzeentch again himself, a la Lucius the Eternal, whose ability to turn his slayers into him always struck me as more Tzeentchian than Slaaneshi.

Thangorodrim
2008-05-19, 06:05 AM
No. You don't get it. If Raistlin has epic spell casting he can do this stuff.

Prove it


Really. And when Raistlin has a perfectly loyal army that doubles in size every round and with every solider being just as powerful as him the Chaos god can stop them?

Yeah, it snaps its fingers and they all die. :smallsmile:


And with epic spell casting you don't need to rearrange, you can if you want, as you just make new solar systems.

Given that God's in D&D have actual defined limits to their capabilities, and Raistlins capabilities are spelled (heh) out in the novels, as well as other "epic" wizards in the various D&D settings, you are lying and trolling.


You ever notice how the fictitious epic wizards in D&D can do whatever they feel like on a whim?

When one creates a solar system, or operates on such a scale, you might have a point.



Raistlin has never had a reason to throw a star at any body, or create a black hole, but that doesn't mean he can't.

Sadly this is whats known as a no-limits fallacy.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-19, 06:10 AM
Prove it

Yeah, it snaps its fingers and they all die. :smallsmile:

Given that God's in D&D have actual defined limits to their capabilities, and Raistlins capabilities are spelled (heh) out in the novels, as well as other "epic" wizards in the various D&D settings, you are lying and trolling.

When one creates a solar system, or operates on such a scale, you might have a point.

Sadly this is whats known as a no-limits fallacy.

To all this stuff: O HAI (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/epicSpells.htm).

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-19, 07:24 AM
Prove it

I don't have time to write up the epic spells buts its easily doable.


Yeah, it snaps its fingers and they all die. :smallsmile:
Unless Tzeentch is God in the big G version then he doesn't have that kind of power. And since the God Emperor is above him and doesn't have said power, its hard to beleive Tz does.


Given that God's in D&D have actual defined limits to their capabilities, and Raistlins capabilities are spelled (heh) out in the novels, as well as other "epic" wizards in the various D&D settings, you are lying and trolling.
Um no I'm not. I've posted some of the spells on here before and any spell can be given to a creature created with Origin of the Species as an at will, free action, ex ability. Including such things as "Create Sun".


When one creates a solar system, or operates on such a scale, you might have a point.
None has ever had a reason to create a solar system. It doesn't mean they can't. And as far as I know the Chaos gods don't create Solar Systems either.


Sadly this is whats known as a no-limits fallacy.
Yes, epic spell casting has no limits. At all. So is Raistilin a level 21+ wizard? Yes. Does he have the Epic Spell Casting feat? Yes. So long as those 2 points are true, all of this other stuff is trivial. And even if either fact isn't true, there are ways to get Epic Spell Casting by proxy at level 7+

Thangorodrim
2008-05-19, 07:26 AM
To all this stuff: O HAI (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/epicSpells.htm).

Sorry, I don't see any of the spells in there, or even the potential for throwing a star at someone, or creating a solar system, never mind surviving in the warp/space/whatever while he does this. I also note the requirement for a tremendous exertion of effort and materials for even the most basic "epic" spell.

Regardless of this, its pretty much all useless against Tzeentch anyway.

Its cute you think Raistlin can do any good though :smallamused:

Verruckt
2008-05-19, 07:36 AM
Sorry, I don't see any of the spells in there, or even the potential for throwing a star at someone, or creating a solar system, never mind surviving in the warp/space/whatever while he does this. I also note the requirement for a tremendous exertion of effort and materials for even the most basic "epic" spell.

Regardless of this, its pretty much all useless against Tzeentch anyway.

Its cute you think Raistlin can do any good though :smallamused:

Then you haven't looked at epic spell seeds :smallamused:

Not that I think Raistlen can do crap at all, it is somewhat difficult to throw a sun at something that is much a concept as a being. Trying to kill Tzeentch is like trying to punch hope. This and Raistlen's thing has always sortof been about people underestimating his abilities. Tzeentch does not underestimate.

Thangorodrim
2008-05-19, 08:33 AM
Then you haven't looked at epic spell seeds :smallamused:

Not that I think Raistlen can do crap at all, it is somewhat difficult to throw a sun at something that is much a concept as a being. Trying to kill Tzeentch is like trying to punch hope. This and Raistlen's thing has always sortof been about people underestimating his abilities. Tzeentch does not underestimate.

Actually I have, care to tell me how you would build a spell that would allow creation, transportation and guidance of a star or black hole ?

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-19, 08:36 AM
Sorry, I don't see any of the spells in there, or even the potential for throwing a star at someone, or creating a solar system, never mind surviving in the warp/space/whatever while he does this. I also note the requirement for a tremendous exertion of effort and materials for even the most basic "epic" spell.

Regardless of this, its pretty much all useless against Tzeentch anyway.

Its cute you think Raistlin can do any good though :smallamused:

Someone doesn't understand epic magic at all. See this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71642) thread for a primer on it.

Thangorodrim
2008-05-19, 08:51 AM
Someone doesn't understand epic magic at all. See this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71642) thread for a primer on it.

I understand quite clearly, the concept being you can build spells to perform specific tasks from a set of basics.

However it doesn't mean you get to wiggle your fingers and Raistlin nukes the universe without proving it. I suggest you look up the term "burden of proof".

But rolling with the concept of just bull****ting away, Tzeentch is master and source of all magics and related skills, Raistlin enters the warp and is dissolved instantly with a wave of Tzeentch's appendage (metaphorically).

Oh, and that Eidolon spell you referenced contradicts your claim of an army of blokes equal to his power and utterly loyal being something effortless.

I also saw the laughable spell you designed for creating a star,


Star Creation
Conjuration (Creation)
Spellcraft DC: 0 (pre-mitigation 4.98713723x10^29)
[b]Components:[b] V, S
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: 5 ft.
Effect: One Sol like star
Duration: Permanent
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

As a theoretical exercise its pretty funny, but as a serious spell its silly, never mind requiring that Raistlin has a prep-time of e29 magnitude, as well as having this event occur 5 feet away.

In other words, its an exercise in intellectual dishonesty.

puppyavenger
2008-05-19, 09:04 AM
lets remember a few things
1. Rastlin can't kill him. why? well, for one, Rastlin is ambitios, so he literaly can't kill Tzeetch. second of all, Tzeetch ignores the sun you throw at him. HE HAS NO PHYSICAL FORM.
2. Rastlin doesn't sound like the a guy with a very high wisdom score. Demon are atracted to magical power. You do the math.
3. Tzeetch has infinite power in the warp, literaly infinate, and he doesn't need a few months to get a new power, if someones wishes they had it, he has.
4. Tzeetch=personification of fate.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-19, 09:43 AM
I understand quite clearly, the concept being you can build spells to perform specific tasks from a set of basics.
Yes. And you add them on to an Origin of the Species spell so that the created creature has everything as Ex abilities.


However it doesn't mean you get to wiggle your fingers and Raistlin nukes the universe without proving it. I suggest you look up the term "burden of proof".
You can summon an infinite amount of Solars. With Arcane Genesis you can create a plane with an infinite amount of time dilation. With an infinite amount of Solars you can mitigate an infinitely high Spell Craft DC. With an infinitely high Spell Craft DC you can do anything. Anything you can create a spell to do you can give to an Origin of the Species creation as an at will, free action, Ex ability (and hence not magical).


But rolling with the concept of just bull****ting away, Tzeentch is master and source of all magics and related skills, Raistlin enters the warp and is dissolved instantly with a wave of Tzeentch's appendage (metaphorically).
Yes, and Tz along with all the other Chaos gods were almost destroyed by 1 full power blast from the God Emperor. Tz isn't God in the big G sense of the word.


Oh, and that Eidolon spell you referenced contradicts your claim of an army of blokes equal to his power and utterly loyal being something effortless.
Thats not the spell I referenced. custom OoS spell.


I also saw the laughable spell you designed for creating a star,



As a theoretical exercise its pretty funny, but as a serious spell its silly, never mind requiring that Raistlin has a prep-time of e29 magnitude, as well as having this event occur 5 feet away.
Again, the prep time is a non issue as it can be given to an OoS as an at will free action Ex ability and the range can be increased to an arbitrarily large distance.


In other words, its an exercise in intellectual dishonesty.
No, its an exercise in the minimum DC to make Sol.

You can make a spell that will disintegrate everything within a hundred light years if you want to.

LBO
2008-05-19, 10:07 AM
Yes, and Tz along with all the other Chaos gods were almost destroyed by 1 full power blast from the God Emperor.
What the crap are you talking about?

Solo
2008-05-19, 10:10 AM
What the crap are you talking about?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_of_Mankind_(Warhammer_40,000)#The_Horus_He resy

Even as Horus' armies laid siege to Terra, the Emperor still believed that Horus could be redeemed due to his love for his son, and he maintained this belief even as he faced Horus in single combat. Due to his unwillingness to use his full power against his surrogate son, the Emperor suffered grievous injuries at Horus's hands. As Horus stood over the Emperor's shattered body, a single guard of the Adeptus Custodes entered the room. Horus tore him apart with a single look. The guard's death galvanized the Emperor. He saw how far Horus had fallen and that there was only one way to defeat Chaos: to kill its ultimate pawn, his beloved son. The Emperor mustered a psychic lance of unparalleled power and unleashed it upon Horus. To preserve themselves the Chaos gods deserted their pawn. Though, the Emperor sensed the return of Horus's sanity, he knew Chaos might attempt to possess Horus again, and he would not be present to stop it a second time. Driving all compassion from his mind, the Emperor called on his inner reserves and destroyed Horus' soul utterly. The account of this titanic combat is written in the short story "Clash of Gods". It was written by William King, and originally published in WHITE DWARF #131 dated November 1990.

Win.

LBO
2008-05-19, 10:14 AM
I'm not seeing an "almost destroyed" there. To avoid damage from the psychic... shockwave wedgie? Sure, it screwed every daemon for light-years around. "Totally destroyed"? Er, no.

Also, WD131? 1990? Rogue Trader? lol, that's totally canon.

SmartAlec
2008-05-19, 10:23 AM
Raistlin vs. Tzeentch. Dearie me.

Ok. First of all, props to Raistlin for becoming the benchmark for all-powerful spellcasters. Against almost anything, I'm sure he could be victorious. But not here.

A Chaos God isn't like, say, a DnD God, a powerful form of Planar that personifies a concept. A Chaos God is literally the sum total of that concept; therefore, if you take on something like Tzeentch, you're literally fighting the universe's combined deception, destiny and magic all at once, given a will. That's not going to be easy.

Firstly because finding Tzeentch is going to be hard. Raistlin would have to journey into the Realm of Chaos - and by this we don't mean the Eye of Terror, or the nasty bit north of the Warhammer World. No, those are just examples of what happens when the Realm of Chaos encroaches on real-space. He's going to have to go to a place where the laws of the universe don't apply. Up, down, gravity, a place where water is sometimes lighter than air (or would do, if such a concept as weight existed there). Not only is he going to have to avoid mutation and corruption - not easy - he's going to have to keep his sanity intact.

Let's say he does all that, though, and manages to make his way through the giant daemon-haunted labyrinth of doom that surrounds Tzeentch's palace. What, exactly, is he going to do?

1 - Cast spells. Now, this isn't going to work, no matter how powerful the spell. Yes, the Chaos Gods were hurled back by the God-Emperor, but that confrontation took place in realspace, which makes all the difference. Here, there's almost no point. Tzeentch IS magic, and the Realm of Chaos is the source of all Warhammer magic. It's like trying to kill a fire elemental with napalm while fighting in molten lava. Not to mention that Tzeentch could probably simply suck the spells out of Raistlin's head, or something equally unpleasant; after all, spells are simply a fragment of Tzeentch, and if your brain suddenly turns into a pineapple, for example, your spellcasting ability will likely be significantly impaired.

2 - Try some kind of cunning plan. There's a similar problem here, in that Tzeentch is Cunning Plans. He knows what you're going to do as soon as you do; and possibly before. He knows every secret thought, and every little lie, and... everything above that, too. If a plan actually succeeds against him, then it is because he allowed it so. A victory will be no victory at all.

3 - The most awkward point is that Raistlin practically IS a disciple of Tzeentch! In fighting Tzeentch, he's fighting against the very things that made him who he is today; ambition, deceit, cunning and magic. Raistlin's strength is, in reality, Tzeentch's strength, and he has only succeeded because he has apparently had Tzeentch's favour so far. And that favour can be removed if he incurs Tzeentch's displeasure.

The confrontation I imagine is this:

Raistlin comes before Tzeentch.

Raistlin casts the most powerful spell he can possibly devise,

Tzeentch notices Raistlin.

Raistlin turns into Chaos Spawn.

... the end, sadly.

Mortals really can't fight Chaos Gods on their own turf. Not even Chaos Gods can fight Chaos Gods on their own turf, and win; every Chaos God exists as long as their 'concept' exists, so to destroy the Chaos Gods you'd have to annihilate all life with feelings and desires, everywhere. And, as we've already pointed out, because Raistlin is practically all about the deceit, cunning and magic, that's not going to work out well for him.

Solo
2008-05-19, 10:39 AM
In the account I read of the Endgame, which was a few months ago, the Emperor has pwned Horus, forcing the Chaos Gods possessing him to flee out of fear of being destroyed, while crippled and dying.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-19, 10:48 AM
Raistlin vs. Tzeentch. Dearie me.

Ok. First of all, props to Raistlin for becoming the benchmark for all-powerful spellcasters. Against almost anything, I'm sure he could be victorious. But not here.

A Chaos God isn't like, say, a DnD God, a powerful form of Planar that personifies a concept. A Chaos God is literally the sum total of that concept; therefore, if you take on something like Tzeentch, you're literally fighting the universe's combined deception, destiny and magic all at once, given a will. That's not going to be easy.
Just destroy the universe. Tz is now quite weak as the concept of Chaos doesn't exist except in Raistilin.


Firstly because finding Tzeentch is going to be hard. Raistlin would have to journey into the Realm of Chaos - and by this we don't mean the Eye of Terror, or the nasty bit north of the Warhammer World. No, those are just examples of what happens when the Realm of Chaos encroaches on real-space. He's going to have to go to a place where the laws of the universe don't apply. Up, down, gravity, a place where water is sometimes lighter than air (or would do, if such a concept as weight existed there). Not only is he going to have to avoid mutation and corruption - not easy - he's going to have to keep his sanity intact.
Or he just calls Tz into real space.


Let's say he does all that, though, and manages to make his way through the giant daemon-haunted labyrinth of doom that surrounds Tzeentch's palace. What, exactly, is he going to do?

1 - Cast spells. Now, this isn't going to work, no matter how powerful the spell. Yes, the Chaos Gods were hurled back by the God-Emperor, but that confrontation took place in realspace, which makes all the difference. Here, there's almost no point. Tzeentch IS magic, and the Realm of Chaos is the source of all Warhammer magic. It's like trying to kill a fire elemental with napalm while fighting in molten lava. Not to mention that Tzeentch could probably simply suck the spells out of Raistlin's head, or something equally unpleasant; after all, spells are simply a fragment of Tzeentch, and if your brain suddenly turns into a pineapple, for example, your spellcasting ability will likely be significantly impaired.
Raistlin isn't using any spells. They are all Ex abilities, no magic involved what so ever. And see above, it takes place in real space.


2 - Try some kind of cunning plan. There's a similar problem here, in that Tzeentch is Cunning Plans. He knows what you're going to do as soon as you do; and possibly before. He knows every secret thought, and every little lie, and... everything above that, too. If a plan actually succeeds against him, then it is because he allowed it so. A victory will be no victory at all.
Actually no. Raistlin has an amped up Mind Blank as part of his OoS. One good enough that even over deities can't get through it.


3 - The most awkward point is that Raistlin practically IS a disciple of Tzeentch! In fighting Tzeentch, he's fighting against the very things that made him who he is today; ambition, deceit, cunning and magic. Raistlin's strength is, in reality, Tzeentch's strength, and he has only succeeded because he has apparently had Tzeentch's favour so far. And that favour can be removed if he incurs Tzeentch's displeasure.
In which case Raistlin would use other ways to achieve his objective.


The confrontation I imagine is this:

Raistlin comes before Tzeentch.

Raistlin casts the most powerful spell he can possibly devise,

Tzeentch notices Raistlin.

Raistlin turns into Chaos Spawn.

... the end, sadly.

Mortals really can't fight Chaos Gods on their own turf. Not even Chaos Gods can fight Chaos Gods on their own turf, and win; every Chaos God exists as long as their 'concept' exists, so to destroy the Chaos Gods you'd have to annihilate all life with feelings and desires, everywhere. And, as we've already pointed out, because Raistlin is practically all about the deceit, cunning and magic, that's not going to work out well for him.

He doesn't use magic or cast any spells. He is not being deceitful. As for cunning, he's not even being that. Killing every thing with the concept of Chaos except himself is very direct.

SmartAlec
2008-05-19, 11:17 AM
In the account I read of the Endgame, which was a few months ago, the Emperor has pwned Horus, forcing the Chaos Gods possessing him to flee out of fear of being destroyed, while crippled and dying.

To be fair, though, the Horus Heresy is in the process of being rewritten; and many of the things we thought we all knew are being stood on their head, with the classic versions of the tale being preserved as the myth that's merely told 10,000 years later.

Massive Legion spoilers - and i'm not kidding, don't go on unless you want the revelation of Legion totally... uh, revealed:

It is claimed in Legion that had Horus won, he would have engaged on a bloody war of destruction whilst consumed with self-loathing, and would have wiped out Humanity - leading on a path of the future which would end with the closing of the Eye of Terror and the defeat of Chaos.

On the other hand, if the Emperor won, then the Galaxy would be faced with an Imperium lasting 10,000, maybe 20,000 years, that would eventually be corrupted from within, and would crumble, leading to the victory of Chaos. Thus, it is possible that Tzeentch planned things this way all along.

Even more serious New Warhammer 40K fluff spoilers, connected to the above:

In the new edition of Warhammer 40K, it will be revealed that the Adeptus Mechanicus made a worrying discovery 14 years ago: the Golden Throne is breaking down, and they don't know - indeed, no-one knows - how to fix it. And soon, it will fail completely; and the Emperor will die. and with him, the Imperium.


Raistlin isn't using any spells. They are all Ex abilities, no magic involved what so ever. And see above, it takes place in real space.

Actually no. Raistlin has an amped up Mind Blank as part of his OoS. One good enough that even over deities can't get through it.

He doesn't use magic or cast any spells. He is not being deceitful. As for cunning, he's not even being that. Killing every thing with the concept of Chaos except himself is very direct.

I think the point I was trying to make was that you really shouldn't think of a Chaos God as anything as petty as a 'deity'. That's not what they are. They are far more metaphysical than that.

And, well, in order to destroy Tzeentch, Raisltin would have to kill himself too. That's kind of what I was hinting at. Destroying the universe isn't really an option, as we'd have to leave somewhere for Raistilin to exist in and the confrontation to take part in - not that it COULD happen in realspace, because you can't simply pull the embodiment of all deceit, magic, deception etc into realspace, any more than you can serve someone a glass of love or wear clothes made of grief.

Raistlin: "I summon you, Tzeentch, using this Absolutely Impossible To Resist Summoning Power!"

Tzeentch: "I'm a Chaos God, in the Realm of Chaos, and I don't have to do anything your petty powers say I should."

Worse, the disctinction between 'spell' and 'ex ability' won't save Raistlin, unfortunately. Tzeentch is the God of Magic because Magic is an agent of Change, which he is also the God of. Hence, any supernatural power which causes a change in something, somewhere, is tied to his concept. This means that the incredible scope of such a plan, the enormous power it would involve and the enormous amount of change would nourish Tzeentch as much as the deaths would starve him.

Which could, concievably, be the point. Perhaps Tzeentch would want him to do that...


In which case Raistlin would use other ways to achieve his objective.

That is, in itself, a cunning plan. Which would mean it would either succeed or fail according to Tzeentch's whims.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-19, 11:53 AM
I do fully agree with Tippy, in that you probably could make an epic spell that could kill Tzeentch's form. The problem is, by doing that, you just recreate Tzeentch, because you did so via magic. So in other words, Tzeentch wins.

1. Raistlin casts his doomspell on Tzeentch.

Does Tzeentch survive?

Yes? Tzeentch wins. Through any number of different 'just as planned' ways.

No? Tzeentch dies, and Raistlin supplants him as god of magic. Raistlin defeated him by magic, plans, and trickery, thus recreating Tzeentch, possibly in his own head. Who knows, possibly millions of epic mages have killed Tzeentch over the years - but to destroy him, they must become him.

Also, if we're going strictly by RAW, then if Tzeentch gets off a single blood boil, as described in the =][= Rulebook, then, due to an odd rules quirk, it is literally impossible for any living being to survive.

Lastly, sauce on those rumours, SmartAlec? I can't believe that they're going to throw away the cause of about half of the Inquisition's internal strife just like that (LOL THORIANS).

Destro_Yersul
2008-05-19, 12:09 PM
Ok, so say Raistlin does manage to destroy Tzeentch. Through epic cheesery, he has done the impossible.

Right up till Tzeentch re-appears, says "I expected that" and Raistlin suddenly suffers from spontaneous existence failure.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-19, 12:14 PM
Ok, so say Raistlin does manage to destroy Tzeentch. Through epic cheesery, he has done the impossible.

Right up till Tzeentch re-appears, says "I expected that" and Raistlin suddenly suffers from spontaneous existence failure.

Pretty much. Except Tzeentch only says 'just as planned'. It sounds cooler.

Ganurath
2008-05-19, 12:41 PM
Pretty much. Except Tzeentch only says 'just as planned'. It sounds cooler.And he says it after the existence failure. He knows the Evil Overlord list, after all.

Destro_Yersul
2008-05-19, 12:45 PM
Knowing Tzeentch, he wrote the Evil Overlord List. Then he planted fragments of it in the minds of susceptible mortals and watched as they wrote it out as well, piece by piece, just because he could.

LBO
2008-05-19, 12:47 PM
In every account I've ever read of the Endgame, the Emperor has pwned Horus, forcing the Chaos Gods possessing him to flee out of fear of being destroyed, while crippled and dying.
"Investing significant power in" =\= "possessing". At no point was Horus ever fully "possessed" (unlike that poor bastard Fulgrim), and at no point ever has a Chaos God put the entirety of its self or power into a mortal. Chaos gods do not work that way.

That they didn't want to be damaged by the Emperor's Limit Break is a given. That they could be destroyed by it is ridiculous.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-19, 03:02 PM
"Investing significant power in" =\= "possessing". At no point was Horus ever fully "possessed" (unlike that poor bastard Fulgrim), and at no point ever has a Chaos God put the entirety of its self or power into a mortal. Chaos gods do not work that way.

That they didn't want to be damaged by the Emperor's Limit Break is a given. That they could be destroyed by it is ridiculous.

I don't know; the latest Chaos Daemons books give the suggestion that the four exchange, to varying degrees, their universe-spanning status as being embodiments of principles, for a certain immanence and nature in the real world (with the current incarnations being firmly in the latter camp); same way as Daemon Princes, who are 'of this world', have more intelligence and individuality even than many of the mightiest Great Daemons. If they were to, even to a small extent, make themselves incarnate in Horus, then it is eminently possible that he could hurt them in a very real sense.

You've also got to remember that the Emperor is, by this point, a being very close in stature to the Chaos gods themselves, and may indeed have had some warp support of his own - there's certainly a Chaos god who does actively go about trying to kill the other four (Malal!), and some fairly weird stuff happened in that throne room (such as the Emperor suddenly going berserk and 'inhuman' when he saw Horus flay that one guy, and proceeded to kill Horus on the spot).

Also, lol at Destro.

puppyavenger
2008-05-19, 03:22 PM
I don't know; the latest Chaos Daemons books give the suggestion that the four exchange, to varying degrees, their universe-spanning status as being embodiments of principles, for a certain immanence and nature in the real world (with the current incarnations being firmly in the latter camp); same way as Daemon Princes, who are 'of this world', have more intelligence and individuality even than many of the mightiest Great Daemons. If they were to, even to a small extent, make themselves incarnate in Horus, then it is eminently possible that he could hurt them in a very real sense.

You've also got to remember that the Emperor is, by this point, a being very close in stature to the Chaos gods themselves, and may indeed have had some warp support of his own - there's certainly a Chaos god who does actively go about trying to kill the other four (Malal!), and some fairly weird stuff happened in that throne room (such as the Emperor suddenly going berserk and 'inhuman' when he saw Horus flay that one guy, and proceeded to kill Horus on the spot).

Also, lol at Destro.

wasn't Malal retconned out with the stumps?

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-19, 03:37 PM
wasn't Malal retconned out with the stumps?

Bel'akor (let out by 'a dark power that hates Chaos), Sons of Malice, etc. Quite clearly Malal, just they could no longer use the name for copyright reasons.

LBO
2008-05-19, 04:08 PM
*snip*
I'm not disputing any of that. I'm disagreeing with the idea that the Emperor's psychic blast in that situation could have outright destroyed Tzeentch, or any of the Chaos Gods, because it's stupid and unfounded.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-19, 04:27 PM
Eh ... if he might be Malal, he could certainly hurt another Chaos god; while he couldn't kill anything (how do you kill an idea?), the impression that I get is that you can certainly become powerful enough to outright dominate anything underneath you, or subjugate its will and essence until it is basically a part of you.

You basically have to be a warp power already to do that, and, if my Emperor=warp power of hatred theory is correct, he's one of the big ones already.

konfeta
2008-05-19, 05:10 PM
Tippy, unless a DnD Epic Mage can destroy the DM, he can't kill Tzeentch. Tzeentch is pretty much the physical manifestation of plot device. He will know exactly what the hell is Raistlin doing as soon as he appears and will have a plot gifted power to disrupt it before Raistlin can literally do anything.

The only way to kill Tzeentch is probably to wipe out all life in the universe, then the possibility of life in the universe without him noticing or somehow furthering his plans. (I.E. wipe out the universe that the DM overlooks)

The only way to kill Tzeentch mechanically it to out-Tzeentch him by introducing a power that can literally control the WH40k universe from the outside. Going with the DM analogy, you need to introduce a guy with a bat to beat down the jackass DM.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-19, 05:13 PM
Technically, if Raistlin wipes out everything except for himself, and then just revels in joy at everything going to pot, couldn't he get Nurgle to shield him?

DarthArminius
2008-05-19, 05:42 PM
The problem with this is that Raistlin is omnipotent in the Creation of the Dragon Lance books. Thus, he is outside the rules and laws of Warhammer 40,000.

I foresee a likely stalemate between the two.

Foeofthelance
2008-05-19, 05:44 PM
Not for nothing, but I think there seems to be a slight miscalculation on how Raistlin would approach the problem.

Raistlin isn't the type of guy who would just start throwing stars around trying to hit a god in the face. Raistlin would be more likely to do the following:

1) Decide to supplant the various WH40K gods.
2) Research the hell out of them to try and determine what their strengths and weaknesses are. (If the Emperor can beat them, then Raistlin will know he can beat them.)
3) Plan the hell out of this. There are way too many factions and personas in the WH40K universe for Raistlin to just stand up and start boasting. Besides, post Twins he knows his weaknesses. He was brought down once by his caring for Bupu, and his emotional attachments. He's not going to make the same mistake in the universe.
4) Using the magic at his disposal, slip back in time and replace the Emperor before the Emperor can reach the height of his powers*. After all, it worked against Fistandantilus...
5) Proceed to build up an epic sized army, and begin crushing the universe, one planet at a time, until the only survivors are his own dedicated worshippers.
6) Once victorious, have his blindly loyal troops sacrifice themselves. Those who disobey, he will personally track down and execute in his moment of glory.
7) Having destroyed all life and secured his position as the most supreme being in the galaxy, he simply announces, "I win." And then takes a nap.
8) With no ambition left in existance, Tzeentch implodes.

That is how Raistlin would defeat Tzeentch. Sure there are funny ways of making big booms, but those are hardly the style of either combatant. I'd expect some more treachery out of them both.



*Think this could never happen? Then explain the Emperor's suddenly-yet-never-quite-enough fading health. That story about feeding off the energy of all those psychics? Partly true. Really their life essence is being channeled by Raistlin in a manner similar to how Takhisis channeled the spirits of the dead in the War of Souls. He uses the energy to maintain the vast web of illusions and deceptions necessary for his gambit.**

** Yes, this does mean that everything that has ever happened since the rise of the Emperor is really a Xanatos Gambit being enacted as a result of a GitP forum debate.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-19, 06:01 PM
Not for nothing, but I think there seems to be a slight miscalculation on how Raistlin would approach the problem.

Raistlin isn't the type of guy who would just start throwing stars around trying to hit a god in the face. Raistlin would be more likely to do the following:

1) Decide to supplant the various WH40K gods.
2) Research the hell out of them to try and determine what their strengths and weaknesses are. (If the Emperor can beat them, then Raistlin will know he can beat them.)
3) Plan the hell out of this. There are way too many factions and personas in the WH40K universe for Raistlin to just stand up and start boasting. Besides, post Twins he knows his weaknesses. He was brought down once by his caring for Bupu, and his emotional attachments. He's not going to make the same mistake in the universe.
4) Using the magic at his disposal, slip back in time and replace the Emperor before the Emperor can reach the height of his powers*. After all, it worked against Fistandantilus...
5) Proceed to build up an epic sized army, and begin crushing the universe, one planet at a time, until the only survivors are his own dedicated worshippers.
6) Once victorious, have his blindly loyal troops sacrifice themselves. Those who disobey, he will personally track down and execute in his moment of glory.
7) Having destroyed all life and secured his position as the most supreme being in the galaxy, he simply announces, "I win." And then takes a nap.
8) With no ambition left in existance, Tzeentch implodes.

That is how Raistlin would defeat Tzeentch. Sure there are funny ways of making big booms, but those are hardly the style of either combatant. I'd expect some more treachery out of them both.



*Think this could never happen? Then explain the Emperor's suddenly-yet-never-quite-enough fading health. That story about feeding off the energy of all those psychics? Partly true. Really their life essence is being channeled by Raistlin in a manner similar to how Takhisis channeled the spirits of the dead in the War of Souls. He uses the energy to maintain the vast web of illusions and deceptions necessary for his gambit.**

** Yes, this does mean that everything that has ever happened since the rise of the Emperor is really a Xanatos Gambit being enacted as a result of a GitP forum debate.

Just as planned.

DarthArminius
2008-05-19, 08:39 PM
::Cuts off Palpatine's testicles:: "Just as I have foreseen."

Solo
2008-05-19, 08:44 PM
In the new edition of Warhammer 40K, it will be revealed that the Adeptus Mechanicus made a worrying discovery 14 years ago: the Golden Throne is breaking down, and they don't know - indeed, no-one knows - how to fix it. And soon, it will fail completely; and the Emperor will die. and with him, the Imperium.
Have they tried opening the back panel and spraying the insides with compressed air in order to remove dust and debris?

DarthArminius
2008-05-19, 08:48 PM
You know, I have just considered that perhaps all they needed to do was cast Contingency : Ressurection.

warty goblin
2008-05-19, 10:07 PM
Foeofthelance, that is freaking hilarious.

One other note when people say that Raistlin can't beat Tzeencth because it is impossible- this goes back to what I said earlier that Raistlin can do the impossible simply through force of will.

"He was strong then, stronger than any of us can begin to imagine. He held the magical field together by his force of will and his strength alone" (Astinus, Test of the Twins p64 of my trade paperback edition).

In short Raistlin doesn't neccesarily need magic to bend reality, since he holds the portal opening spell together with his will in spite of the disruption and so changes time, which is impossible for a human being. It seems like a reasonable, albeit unprovable, supposition that he could similarly exile himself from feeding Tzeentch's existance through use of magic through force of will, then simply kill everything with ambition or that uses magic, leaving him with his own personal necron army to boot.

SmartAlec
2008-05-19, 11:03 PM
In short Raistlin doesn't neccesarily need magic to bend reality, since he holds the portal opening spell together with his will in spite of the disruption and so changes time, which is impossible for a human being.

That is change, man. Tzeentch is the God of Change.

Anyhow... so it seems that in order for Raistlin to take down Tzeentch, what he needs to do is destroy vast sections of the many thousands of universes out there.

I can't even begin to imagine how many vs. threads it would take for us to begin to figure this out. Raistlin's going to be doing a heck of a lot of fighting.


It seems like a reasonable, albeit unprovable, supposition that he could similarly exile himself from feeding Tzeentch's existance through use of magic through force of will.

It's probably wrong to think of it this way. You need to think of it in more metaphysical terms; not only is Tzeentch all magic, but all magic is Tzeentch. Likewise all deceit is Tzeentch, all cunning plans are Tzeentch, all change is Tzeentch. They all flow from him as much as they flow to him.

There's a reason the Warhammer world considers Chaos unbeatable, and this is it. Chaos is in everything.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-20, 04:44 AM
There's a reason the Warhammer world considers Chaos unbeatable, and this is it. Chaos is in everything.

Well, the Warp is in everything. It's arguable that a non-Chaos warp power (Eldar deity, Gork, Mork, or the Emperor are the only ones I can think of now) could usurp Chaos through sheer awesome.

Smeik
2008-05-20, 06:32 AM
Well, the Warp is in everything. It's arguable that a non-Chaos warp power (Eldar deity, Gork, Mork, or the Emperor are the only ones I can think of now) could usurp Chaos through sheer awesome.

So, there we have it. The only thing Raistlin has to do is become a warp power more awesome the Tzeentch, then beat the crap out of him and steal his portfolio. Shouldn't be that hard.:smalltongue:

@Illiterate Scribe: You forgot the Tyranid Hivemind, which is also a warp power, perhaps even the biggest.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-20, 06:50 AM
So, there we have it. The only thing Raistlin has to do is become a warp power more awesome the Tzeentch, then beat the crap out of him and steal his portfolio. Shouldn't be that hard.:smalltongue:

But to do that, he'd basically have to become Tzeentch.

[QUOTE]@Illiterate Scribe: You forgot the Tyranid Hivemind, which is also a warp power, perhaps even the biggest.

Good point. Probably too unfocused, though, and whereas the others all represent an emotion/ideal, the Hivemind is only a ton of psykers all in one place.

Zenthar
2008-05-20, 08:21 AM
That is change, man. Tzeentch is the God of Change.

Anyhow... so it seems that in order for Raistlin to take down Tzeentch, what he needs to do is destroy vast sections of the many thousands of universes out there.

I can't even begin to imagine how many vs. threads it would take for us to begin to figure this out. Raistlin's going to be doing a heck of a lot of fighting.



It's probably wrong to think of it this way. You need to think of it in more metaphysical terms; not only is Tzeentch all magic, but all magic is Tzeentch. Likewise all deceit is Tzeentch, all cunning plans are Tzeentch, all change is Tzeentch. They all flow from him as much as they flow to him.

There's a reason the Warhammer world considers Chaos unbeatable, and this is it. Chaos is in everything.

Raistlin would easily take out any of the universes in Wh40k.. he's omnipotent..

Raistlin is the God of Magic too, just like Tzeentch - so neither would gain the advantage there.

Eldan
2008-05-20, 01:19 PM
Raistlin just needs to research "Summon Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann."
Tzeentch says: "What? That's impossible! No one can-" and explodes because there is too much ambition for him to absorb. End of story.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-20, 03:01 PM
Raistlin would easily take out any of the universes in Wh40k.. he's omnipotent..

Raistlin is the God of Magic too, just like Tzeentch - so neither would gain the advantage there.

Warning:in the grim darkness of the far future, omnipotence may be hazardous to your health.

SmartAlec
2008-05-20, 08:26 PM
Raistlin is the God of Magic too, just like Tzeentch - so neither would gain the advantage there.

It's... a little different, because the DnD concept of 'god' and the Warhammer concept of 'chaos god' are very different.

Raistlin has ascended to his position, but Gods in DnD are not indestructible. They have limits, they have stats, they can be defeated, they can be stripped of Godhood or even killed. Even Raistlin has an upper limit to his power, I would assume, simply because he was originally a mortal and therefore there are magnitudes of power which he is simply unable to concieve. DnD Gods are, essentially, just very very powerful Outsiders who represent a concept. As an example, Paladine is not Goodness embodied. He's a very powerful being who is so good as to be able to represent Goodness.

Tzeentch is different. He's not a God of Magic in the DnD sense. He's got no portfolio to steal. He is magic, and by that I don't mean he's made of Magic, but rather that he is every piece of magic ever thought of or performed everywhere, everywhen; as well as being every cunning thought, every transitional change and every speck of destiny and fate. He's not a being that represents a concept, he literally is that concept. In the Realm of Chaos, he has no limits. The only things keeping him in check are the other three major Chaos Gods, who also have no limits.

So it's difficult to fight something like that, in a conventional sense - and even in an unconventional sense. How do you destroy all magic, all traces of ambition and cunning in the psyches of all sentient creatures, remove the concept of destiny from the universe and hold the entirety of creation in stasis to prevent it changing, all at once? You can't - because in doing so you're enacting a colossal change in the universe and acting out a very unique destiny of your own.

DarthArminius
2008-05-20, 11:09 PM
So it's difficult to fight something like that, in a conventional sense - and even in an unconventional sense. How do you destroy all magic, all traces of ambition and cunning in the psyches of all sentient creatures, remove the concept of destiny from the universe and hold the entirety of creation in stasis to prevent it changing, all at once? You can't - because in doing so you're enacting a colossal change in the universe and acting out a very unique destiny of your own.

But see, on the other hand, Raistlin comes from a universe with something completely different. In that world, Raistlin BECAME existence.

Zenthar
2008-05-21, 07:51 AM
It's... a little different, because the DnD concept of 'god' and the Warhammer concept of 'chaos god' are very different.

Raistlin has ascended to his position, but Gods in DnD are not indestructible. They have limits, they have stats, they can be defeated, they can be stripped of Godhood or even killed. Even Raistlin has an upper limit to his power, I would assume, simply because he was originally a mortal and therefore there are magnitudes of power which he is simply unable to concieve. DnD Gods are, essentially, just very very powerful Outsiders who represent a concept. As an example, Paladine is not Goodness embodied. He's a very powerful being who is so good as to be able to represent Goodness.

Tzeentch is different. He's not a God of Magic in the DnD sense. He's got no portfolio to steal. He is magic, and by that I don't mean he's made of Magic, but rather that he is every piece of magic ever thought of or performed everywhere, everywhen; as well as being every cunning thought, every transitional change and every speck of destiny and fate. He's not a being that represents a concept, he literally is that concept. In the Realm of Chaos, he has no limits. The only things keeping him in check are the other three major Chaos Gods, who also have no limits.

So it's difficult to fight something like that, in a conventional sense - and even in an unconventional sense. How do you destroy all magic, all traces of ambition and cunning in the psyches of all sentient creatures, remove the concept of destiny from the universe and hold the entirety of creation in stasis to prevent it changing, all at once? You can't - because in doing so you're enacting a colossal change in the universe and acting out a very unique destiny of your own.

Raistlin has been called omnipotent when he was at his height by the authors, therefore having no upper limit. He is nowhere near DnD gods in power - he beat the overgod, Ao, since Raistlin was the only thing in existence. Ao doesn't have stats, he's practically omnipotent.

I'm pretty sure that Raistlin is magic, too.

Hmm - Raistlin can't be totally omnipotent, though, since he couldn't create new life, but that seems to be some kind of a rule in the universe, that only Good can create life.

puppyavenger
2008-05-21, 08:01 AM
Raistlin has been called omnipotent when he was at his height by the authors, therefore having no upper limit. He is nowhere near DnD gods in power - he beat the overgod, Ao, since Raistlin was the only thing in existence. Ao doesn't have stats, he's practically omnipotent.

I'm pretty sure that Raistlin is magic, too.

Hmm - Raistlin can't be totally omnipotent, though, since he couldn't create new life, but that seems to be some kind of a rule in the universe, that only Good can create life.

but orgin of speicis is right in the epic SRD. WAit, he can't create life? wow all of tippies straagies just fell on their face.

Krrth
2008-05-21, 08:08 AM
but orgin of speicis is right in the epic SRD. WAit, he can't create life? wow all of tippies straagies just fell on their face.

Remember, Rasit was 2.0 when most of the books were written. And the stories (time of the Twins) specifically mention that he cannot create life, even as a god.

puppyavenger
2008-05-21, 08:34 AM
Remember, Rasit was 2.0 when most of the books were written. And the stories (time of the Twins) specifically mention that he cannot create life, even as a god.

So, he'snot omnpotent.

13_CBS
2008-05-21, 09:43 AM
So, he'snot omnpotent.

Eh, he'll probably come up with an epic spell that will let him do that anyway.

Revlid
2008-05-21, 10:29 AM
Eh, he'll probably come up with an epic spell that will let him do that anyway.

I do so love that the main (indeed, only) argument Raistlin's supporters have is that he can use epic spells.

This is rather like trying to defeat the ocean by throwing buckets of water at it.

Krrth
2008-05-21, 10:34 AM
I do so love that the main (indeed, only) argument Raistlin's supporters have is that he can use epic spells.

This is rather like trying to defeat the ocean by throwing buckets of water at it.
I agree. IF we let Raistlin case epic level spells (which is something he could not do in the books), then it simply becomes epic level caster vs epic level caster deity.

Zenthar
2008-05-21, 10:41 AM
I agree. IF we let Raistlin case epic level spells (which is something he could not do in the books), then it simply becomes epic level caster vs epic level caster deity.

He could use epic magic in the books.

Krrth
2008-05-21, 11:04 AM
He could use epic magic in the books.

How? Unless there have been some recent books that I missed, the books where he took over the universe were written before 3.0 ever came out. That means he cannot cast epic level spells, if there were no epic spells for him to cast.

puppyavenger
2008-05-21, 11:21 AM
You know, this really depenfds on what universe its in. In 40k, he dies, since in 40k any and all magic/reality changing carries a chance of having your head explode. In D&D he dies, because Tzeetch can do everything he can, plus a number of ranks in spell carft and any other applicable skills equel to everyone elses combined, plus all the ranks everyone wishes they had.

Elidyr
2008-05-21, 11:26 AM
Raistlin has been called omnipotent when he was at his height by the authors, therefore having no upper limit. He is nowhere near DnD gods in power - he beat the overgod, Ao, since Raistlin was the only thing in existence. Ao doesn't have stats, he's practically omnipotent.

I'm pretty sure that Raistlin is magic, too.

Hmm - Raistlin can't be totally omnipotent, though, since he couldn't create new life, but that seems to be some kind of a rule in the universe, that only Good can create life.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but isnt Ao specific to Forgotten realms.

All this talk of omnipotent wizards... and they call FR munchkin paradise :P

Elidyr
2008-05-21, 11:40 AM
Raistlin has been called omnipotent when he was at his height by the authors, therefore having no upper limit. He is nowhere near DnD gods in power - he beat the overgod, Ao, since Raistlin was the only thing in existence. Ao doesn't have stats, he's practically omnipotent.

I'm pretty sure that Raistlin is magic, too.

Hmm - Raistlin can't be totally omnipotent, though, since he couldn't create new life, but that seems to be some kind of a rule in the universe, that only Good can create life.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but isnt Ao specific to Forgotten realms.

All this talk of omnipotent wizards... and they call FR munchkin paradise :P

DarthArminius
2008-05-21, 12:24 PM
How? Unless there have been some recent books that I missed, the books where he took over the universe were written before 3.0 ever came out. That means he cannot cast epic level spells, if there were no epic spells for him to cast.

Pretty easily. He obviously used something pretty strong to get rid of most of Takhisis'es entire stash of demons in the Abyss.

Krrth
2008-05-21, 12:29 PM
Pretty easily. He obviously used something pretty strong to get rid of most of Takhisis'es entire stash of demons in the Abyss.
As I recall, he used several artifacts, as well as the powers of good (in the form of the cleric crysania). The demons couldn't get close because of her. He only won when he lured takhisis into the "real" world, and the setting specific result was she lost her divine protection (and became an equivilent level caster)

Foeofthelance
2008-05-21, 12:45 PM
Actually, if I remember correctly, Ao was supposed to be a Gary Gygax figure, in that he was responsible for the creation of all of the D&D universes (Krynn, Faerun, Greyhawk, etc.), leaving it up to the patron deities to run each established world in their own way.

As for Raistlin, when the heck did he defeat Ao and take over the universe? The last it is ever described is his battle against Paladine. Its assumed that he won, and it sort of stuck, even after Caramon and Tasslehoff retconned it. That was why he was able to manage twisting Palin's test into freeing him, and how he managed to find Krynn after Takhisis moved it.

As for Raistlin "needing" epic magic to win, I've already pointed out that he's already doing it with Space Marines. Not sure they count as 'epic' magic though. (And it should be noted that the reason Raistlin could never actually successfully produce life wasn't that he couldn't; rather it was more 'intent shapes the spell'. As a rather twisted individual, Raislin managed to create life several times, and the unfortunate results lived in the bottom of the tower. What he never succeeeded in was creating perfect life, which is why he sought to become a god, thinking that would allow him to do so.)

Also, if Tzeentch is really magic itself, then Raistlin wins. Raistlin is meant to be the lord and master of all magic; that basically makes Tzeentch a sentient force to be broken to Raistlin's will. Considering his track record with such attempts so far, I'd give it to Raistlin. Tzeentch may know what you're going to do as soon as you do it, but Raistlin doesn't know what he's going to do. He knows what his opponent is going to do, and reacts accordingly.

Destro_Yersul
2008-05-21, 12:54 PM
Maybe Raistlin is meant to be the lord and master of all magic. Tzeentch already is. As someone said before, trying to use magic against Tzeentch is like trying to fight the ocean by tossing water at it. He already knows what you're going to do, when you're going to do it, and how this all fits into his plan. Also, I'm pretty sure Chaos Gods would be something like Lovecraftian Cosmic Horrors, and looking at one directly would shatter your mind. The warp already does that, for one thing, so why wouldn't it apply to the beings who preside over it?

At any rate, it all boils down to this:

If you are a caster, Tzeentch can do anything you can do, but better.

If you are not a caster, don't even bother trying. You lost already.

LBO
2008-05-21, 01:44 PM
Unless you're Khorne.

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u320/LBO_photos/khornenosykers.jpg

puppyavenger
2008-05-21, 02:09 PM
Unless you're Khorne.

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u320/LBO_photos/khornenosykers.jpg

thread won.

Zenthar
2008-05-21, 03:02 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isnt Ao specific to Forgotten realms.

All this talk of omnipotent wizards... and they call FR munchkin paradise :P

Yeah, but FR and Krynn are supposedly connected, and it's possible to access FR from Krynn and vice versa according to some sources

Zenthar
2008-05-21, 03:06 PM
Maybe Raistlin is meant to be the lord and master of all magic. Tzeentch already is. As someone said before, trying to use magic against Tzeentch is like trying to fight the ocean by tossing water at it. He already knows what you're going to do, when you're going to do it, and how this all fits into his plan. Also, I'm pretty sure Chaos Gods would be something like Lovecraftian Cosmic Horrors, and looking at one directly would shatter your mind. The warp already does that, for one thing, so why wouldn't it apply to the beings who preside over it?

At any rate, it all boils down to this:

If you are a caster, Tzeentch can do anything you can do, but better.

If you are not a caster, don't even bother trying. You lost already.

How come Tzeentch isn't controlling the realspace? This is a genuine question. What stops the Chaos Gods from controlling the realspace if they are so powerful?

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-21, 03:07 PM
Unless you're Khorne.

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u320/LBO_photos/khornenosykers.jpg

Is dat sum original content?


How come Tzeentch isn't controlling the realspace? This is a genuine question. What stops the Chaos Gods from controlling the realspace if they are so powerful?

I am sure that I speak for Indrick Boreale of the Blood Ravens when I say

THE EMPRAH PROTECTS!

Krrth
2008-05-21, 03:09 PM
Yeah, but FR and Krynn are supposedly connected, and it's possible to access FR from Krynn and vice versa according to some sources

Which sources are these? The only connection Krynn has with any other setting is ravenloft, and that was with Lord Soth. Krynn was created specifically to get away from the other realms, so why would it be connected?

LBO
2008-05-21, 03:20 PM
Is dat sum original content?
Not mine, but some of my favourite drawfa-... er, /tg/ art. I'll post some more if there's cause to make Khorne cry.


I am sure that I speak for Indrick Boreale of the Blood Ravens when I say

THE EMPRAH PROTECTS!
Steel Rehn!
Some steh dry and others feel the pehn.
Steel Rehn!
Landing drop pods makehs infernahl din.

Steel Rehn!
Our eterhnel fureh strikes the hearts of mehn.
Steel Rehn!
Deep strikeh is our vehry own bent.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-21, 03:21 PM
Which sources are these? The only connection Krynn has with any other setting is ravenloft, and that was with Lord Soth. Krynn was created specifically to get away from the other realms, so why would it be connected?

Plane of Shadow links all the planes, I think.


Not mine, but some of my favourite drawfa-... er, /tg/ art. I'll post some more if there's cause to make Khorne cry.

Ah well, I just hadn't seen if before. I've also yoinked the tyra-chan and biovore-chan from your photobucket.


Steel Rehn!
Some steh dry and others feel the pehn.
Steel Rehn!
Landing drop pods makehs infernahl din.

Steel Rehn!
Our eterhnel fureh strikes the hearts of mehn.
Steel Rehn!
Deep strikeh is our vehry own bent.

SPESS MEHREENS!

Krrth
2008-05-21, 04:57 PM
Plane of Shadow links all the planes, I think.



Alright, I pulled out my old 2ed Dragonlance Book. Raistlin, as listed on pg 108 as a 20th lvl wizard. Unless they changed that in a later edition, he's not epic. You get kicked out of Krynn at 18th level, and can't go back. If someone from another realm gets in, they have a small but cumulative chance of getting stuck. (note: I'm AD&D stats because that was when the books were written)

Zenthar
2008-05-21, 05:40 PM
Alright, I pulled out my old 2ed Dragonlance Book. Raistlin, as listed on pg 108 as a 20th lvl wizard. Unless they changed that in a later edition, he's not epic. You get kicked out of Krynn at 18th level, and can't go back. If someone from another realm gets in, they have a small but cumulative chance of getting stuck. (note: I'm AD&D stats because that was when the books were written)

That's not Raistlin when he's a god, though.

And the Empire or Emperor stops the all-powerful Tzeentch..? :smallconfused:

chiasaur11
2008-05-21, 07:29 PM
That's not Raistlin when he's a god, though.

And the Empire or Emperor stops the all-powerful Tzeentch..? :smallconfused:

Well, him and
CIAPHAS CAIN, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM!

Foeofthelance
2008-05-21, 07:33 PM
Which sources are these? The only connection Krynn has with any other setting is ravenloft, and that was with Lord Soth. Krynn was created specifically to get away from the other realms, so why would it be connected?

Spelljammer also connected the two, with Krynn and Toriel being in seperate 'crystal spheres'. Basically they were alternate planets, and ships could and did pass between them. With the Dragonlance books published around 3rd edition, Krynn got moved to what is basically an interdimensional crossroads and left there even after the gods came back. Granted, I'm working with the novels, not game source materials, and I'm not entirely sure which.

On the other hand, if its considered canon, several Solamnic Knights showed up in Amn in Baldur's Gate II, so it is possible to travel between the two, and now it is even easier than ever.

nothingclever
2008-05-21, 07:36 PM
Well, him and
CIAPHAS CAIN, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM!
Just as planned.
http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/6996/swim1xv0.th.jpg (http://img395.imageshack.us/my.php?image=swim1xv0.jpg)

Destro_Yersul
2008-05-21, 09:13 PM
Mostly it's because Tzeentch is a manipulator. Everything that happens happens because he wants it to. It's all part of his plan. The other thing is, of course, that Realspace only draws close to the warp in a few locations. The Chaos gods can do anything they want in the Eye of Terror, for example, but not so much where the Warp doesn't connect to realspace. It would be rather like trying to bash a hole in a concrete wall using only your head.

This is what Chaos Space marines are for, and Daemons if you can find a Psyker or Icon to let them free at.

To summarize: Chaos Gods are almighty in the warp, which is the only place they can exist so don't say Raistlin would just make them leave the warp because if they did it would just have to go with them.

DarthArminius
2008-05-21, 11:53 PM
Raistlin is listed in a Dragon Lance Campaign Setting as a level 28 wizard.

He's much more powerful, however, than Elminster ever was. Furthermore, he's a force that is powerful enough to act as advisor to the very gods of Krynn.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-22, 03:46 AM
That's not Raistlin when he's a god, though.

And the Empire or Emperor stops the all-powerful Tzeentch..? :smallconfused:

The Emperor being warp-deity level power (possibly two, see earlier in the thread) in his own way.

Also, 28th level wizard, advisor to gods?

Doesn't seem like the 'lol, omnipotent' of earlier.

Solo
2008-05-22, 04:16 AM
Raistlin is listed in a Dragon Lance Campaign Setting as a level 28 wizard.

He's much more powerful, however, than Elminster ever was. Furthermore, he's a force that is powerful enough to act as advisor to the very gods of Krynn.

Ah, but Raistlin has slept with far fewer goddesses than Elminster.

Victory: Elminster.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-22, 04:46 AM
Ah, but Raistlin has slept with far fewer goddesses than Elminster.

Victory: Elminster.

Slaanesh has slept with far more wizards than Elminster has slept with goddesses.

Victory: Slaanesh.

Destro_Yersul
2008-05-22, 08:01 AM
Slaanesh has slept with more beings than actually exist.

Zenthar
2008-05-22, 08:09 AM
The Emperor being warp-deity level power (possibly two, see earlier in the thread) in his own way.

Also, 28th level wizard, advisor to gods?

Doesn't seem like the 'lol, omnipotent' of earlier.

Uhhh... he acted as the advisor when he was ripped of his powers. They allowed him to advise them because of his intelligence. He also never reached his potential in the advisor scenario.

Basically, for those who haven't read it, Raistlin became the ominpotent god in the future. Caramon and Tas travelled in time, and saw this, and also saw that the whole world was destroyed and Raistlin was all-alone after he had killed all the other gods. So, they travelled back in time, just in time to tell Raistlin this before he would win Takhisis. So then Raistlin sacrificed himself and bla bla bla, Takhisis tortured him for a lot of time until he was saven, and then when he died his powers got taken away by the other gods as a punishment, and so he acted as their advisor, when Krynn got stolen by Takhisis. Uh.

Anyways, if Chaos Gods are that weak in realspace, why couldn't Raistlin just be there and do his thang? He'd have infinite amount of time, there.

Inhuman Bot
2008-05-22, 08:22 AM
Remember people: As A chaos god myself, I know that tzeentch has the feat "pun-pun, but plus 1". The benifit: Tzeentch ALWAYS rolls +1 to what he needs and his enemys roll -1 that they need on T's homeplane. That was essentially what some fluff was saying.
Rastlin can: Use epic spells. Use broken spells. Some other neat tricks.
Tzeentch can. Really. The more hope and ambition that exists means more power for him. And also he can summon about 666 demons as a free actions, use every spell, unlimated times a day (I would assume as the wh 4k and DL universes have A fair amount of both hope and ambiton). If this isn't full coherent, then I appoligize.

P.S. Is raistlin immortal:smallconfused:? didnt think so. And yes, victory me.

Destro_Yersul
2008-05-22, 10:43 AM
Anyways, if Chaos Gods are that weak in realspace, why couldn't Raistlin just be there and do his thang? He'd have infinite amount of time, there.

Because if he did he would find legions of demons, chaos space marines and doom descending on him, to the point where reality fractures, Tzeentch looks down, says 'Just as planned' and proceeds to win the universe.

DarthArminius
2008-05-22, 11:41 AM
I just don't see why Raistlin won't just slam his universe into WH40K! :)

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-22, 12:16 PM
How come Raistlin gets to use his mechanics over ours?

Zenthar
2008-05-22, 01:07 PM
Because if he did he would find legions of demons, chaos space marines and doom descending on him, to the point where reality fractures, Tzeentch looks down, says 'Just as planned' and proceeds to win the universe.

I don't see how anyone expect Tzeentch himself could pose a threat to near-omnipotent Raistlin.

SmartAlec
2008-05-22, 03:55 PM
Lastly, sauce on those rumours, SmartAlec? I can't believe that they're going to throw away the cause of about half of the Inquisition's internal strife just like that (LOL THORIANS).

Well, a few things.

Mostly, they already threw most of that stuff out with Legion. Monodominants think Humanity is destined to rule the Galaxy? Wrong, or at least right, but not in the way they think. Amalathians think that the Imperium is proceeding according to the Emperor's great plan? No, as it turns out. Horusians and Istvaanians think agitating unrest helps the Imperium grow stronger? Not in any appreciable way.

Secondly that the only game that all this factionalism background is important for is Inquisitor. Heck, even the books about the Inquisition are spotty with this sort of thing - Eisenhorn mentions the various Inquisitorial factions briefly but attaches little importance to them, and the Ravenor trilogy gets through without even mentioning them. The most important distinction concerning an Inquisitor, as far as almost everyone is concerned, is: Puritan or Radical.

chiasaur11
2008-05-22, 04:50 PM
Remember people: As A chaos god myself, I know that tzeentch has the feat "pun-pun, but plus 1". The benifit: Tzeentch ALWAYS rolls +1 to what he needs and his enemys roll -1 that they need on T's homeplane. That was essentially what some fluff was saying.
Rastlin can: Use epic spells. Use broken spells. Some other neat tricks.
Tzeentch can. Really. The more hope and ambition that exists means more power for him. And also he can summon about 666 demons as a free actions, use every spell, unlimated times a day (I would assume as the wh 4k and DL universes have A fair amount of both hope and ambiton). If this isn't full coherent, then I appoligize.

P.S. Is raistlin immortal:smallconfused:? didnt think so. And yes, victory me.

Which makes one wonder, COULD Pun-Pun beat Tzeentch, short of manipulate forming himself up a "Defeat Tzeentch forever" special ability?
I mean, he IS Pun-Pun...

Destro_Yersul
2008-05-22, 06:07 PM
I don't see how anyone expect Tzeentch himself could pose a threat to near-omnipotent Raistlin.

Because Raistlin is a wizard, so Tzeentch does everything he can do, only better.

nothingclever
2008-05-22, 06:16 PM
Because Raistlin is a wizard, so Tzeentch does everything he can do, only better.
The point he was making is that chaos marines and daemons in realspace shouldn't be able to hurt Raistlin at all since he's so powerful meaning he'd have infinite time to plan safely unless Tzeentch came to him in realspace.

puppyavenger
2008-05-22, 06:21 PM
For some reason I'm imaginign a banner saying
"Tzeetch, you, only better"

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-22, 06:21 PM
I'd like to point out Raistlin defeated the god of magic with magic. Yes, he DID defeat the ocean by throwing water at it. If he could do that, I'm placing my bets on him just becoming so ambitious he takes the title and power out of Tzeentch's hands, or something.

puppyavenger
2008-05-22, 06:24 PM
I'd like to point out Raistlin defeated the god of magic with magic. Yes, he DID defeat the ocean by throwing water at it. If he could do that, I'm placing my bets on him just becoming so ambitious he takes the title and power out of Tzeentch's hands, or something.

no your making a mistake. Tzeetch isn't the god of magic, He IS magic. you aren't throughing water at the ocean, you scooping it up and throwing it back in.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-22, 06:46 PM
no your making a mistake. Tzeetch isn't the god of magic, He IS magic. you aren't throughing water at the ocean, you scooping it up and throwing it back in.

Your point? Raistlin still did something that is not only impossible, but he was even plussing his foe. And he STILL came out on top.

Zenthar
2008-05-22, 08:31 PM
Because Raistlin is a wizard, so Tzeentch does everything he can do, only better.

Raistlin isn't any more wizard than Tzeentch, if they're both at their maximum strength. Raistlin is a near-omnipotent god, who couldn't be stopped by anyone. Tzeentch, however, hasn't conquered or destroyed the world yet, even though he's supposedly better than Raistlin?

SmartAlec
2008-05-22, 10:14 PM
Well, two reasons why not.

1) He doesn't need to. Chaos will win in the end, it's generally recognised as being inevitable! Metaphysics knows it, Philosophy knows it, Thermodynamics knows it. He can afford to play the long game - the millenia-long game.

2) He doesn't want to. The physical universe is fascinating! All those independent minds doubly trapped in their emotions and perspectives, and in their worlds with thise curious physical laws. It's like a gigantic gameboard for the ultimate player.

Plus, we simply can't rule out the possibility that Tzeentch has been responsible for the death of multiple realities so far.

Anyhow. Tzeentch may have conquered/destroyed fewer worlds on paper than Raistlin has, but he still has the upper hand because of his very nature. In DnD, Gods are defeatable. Everything is defeatable, everything has limits. Even at his most powerful, Raistlin's powers can still be defined and measured. A Chaos God, on the other hand, is unknowable, immortal and eternal - it's not something that can be measured on any kind of scale.

Thus, no matter what Raistlin does, no matter how much effort he puts forth and no matter how much power he kicks out, Tzeentch can match it and overpower it without effort because he is free from any kind of limit. At best, for Raistlin that is, a straightforward duel will result in deadlock. It'd be like fighting the DM.

Zenthar
2008-05-23, 12:37 AM
1) Uhh. Then why is he trying to do it all the time? He has all these cults in WH Fantasy dedicated to make the Empire fall, the Chaos Marines in 40k, possessed Horus along other chaos gods to make the Empire fall.. why?

2) See above. Strange behaviour from someone who doesn't want to. I bet he's seeing all this trouble just because he doesn't want to conquer/destroy/whatever the Empire and the world?

Obviously Tzeentch and his fellow chaos gods have limits too. As I said before, if they didn't they would have destroyed or conquered the whole world before. And they have failed to do so before. Whereas Raistlin could have conquered the whole world in one day.

Destro_Yersul
2008-05-23, 05:10 AM
One world, sure. They can do that in less than a day quite frequently. Thing is, they've got a whole galaxy to conquer and, whatever happens, one planet will not be missed much. Unless it's a very important planet, like Cadia.

as for the two points:

1) All part of the plan. Horus was a pawn, used from the beginning to mortally wound the Emperor at the critical moment so his power could no longer be wielded. Tzeentch knows that a push here, a shove there, a cult on that planet at this time will all work to bring about the end of his plan for the universe. What that plan is, only Tzeentch can say, and he won't tell.

2) Actually, that about sums it up. Tzeentch's methods may take time, but they will turn out a result that is completely favourable to him eventually.

Not to say, of course, that Tzeentch can't do things instantly. That's how a lot of oddities and mutations come about on worlds he is currently interested in. Things like cobblestones inexplicably turning into puddles of sentient goo because Tzeentch said so.

SmartAlec
2008-05-23, 08:03 AM
Thing is, Raistlin may have ended up as an omnipotent being but he began as a human. We can at least understand his motivations, the things that drive him. We can get into his head. You could say the same for the majority of DnD deities. The Chaos Gods, though, are real Gods, beings not just on another level of power but on another level of existence - and thus (going a bit agnostic here) they seem incomprehensible. We can't explain why they do what they do because we just can't get into a mind that's so alien to us.

So when you ask, 'Why has Tzeentch done this/not done this', the best answer anyone can give is 'I don't know' - the only things we can say with any certainty is that there is a reason for it, and that we don't know what that reason is.

Zenthar
2008-05-23, 11:28 AM
One world, sure. They can do that in less than a day quite frequently. Thing is, they've got a whole galaxy to conquer and, whatever happens, one planet will not be missed much. Unless it's a very important planet, like Cadia.

as for the two points:

1) All part of the plan. Horus was a pawn, used from the beginning to mortally wound the Emperor at the critical moment so his power could no longer be wielded. Tzeentch knows that a push here, a shove there, a cult on that planet at this time will all work to bring about the end of his plan for the universe. What that plan is, only Tzeentch can say, and he won't tell.

2) Actually, that about sums it up. Tzeentch's methods may take time, but they will turn out a result that is completely favourable to him eventually.

Not to say, of course, that Tzeentch can't do things instantly. That's how a lot of oddities and mutations come about on worlds he is currently interested in. Things like cobblestones inexplicably turning into puddles of sentient goo because Tzeentch said so.

There was just one planet in Warhammer Fantasy that all the races were in.

1) Why didn't he wound the Emperor himself, or kill him?

2) Maybe, still, if he was so powerful he could acheive them immediately.

And things like that are the pinnacle of Tzeentch's power, when he's interested about a planet?

SmartAlec
2008-05-23, 11:36 AM
I already posted on the impossibility of giving an answer, but both 1) and 2) can be answered with a simple "Because it's much more interesting this way."

Zenthar
2008-05-23, 12:08 PM
I already posted on the impossibility of giving an answer, but both 1) and 2) can be answered with a simple "Because it's much more interesting this way."

Because "I don't know" is a sure winner in a debate. "Because it's much more interesting this way"... right

Inhuman Bot
2008-05-23, 12:30 PM
Okay, first off look at it this way. When you read a book or play a video game, do you want to know the ending? whats more fun, knowing who the killer was, or guessing and making theories? That's what the world is like to Tzeentch. My points are:
1 really, what is rasitlin stats? he has some, so he can be killed.
2 Can raistlin stop having any feelings forever? no anger or pleasure or hope or ambition or anything? if so he MAY have a chance of killing T. He would die after though, as the 40k universe would collpse with no gods and only raistlin.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-23, 12:37 PM
Can raistlin stop having any feelings forever? no anger or pleasure or hope or ambition or anything? if so he MAY have a chance of killing T. He would die after though, as the 40k universe would collpse with no gods and only raistlin.

Well, sorta.

He wouldn't have to feel no emotion to defeat Tzeentch, as he could pledge himself to another Chaos deity, and become a powerful avatar of said cause. Nurgle, for example, riles up Tzeentch a great deal by making all of his 'just as planned's fail.

However, becoming a mindless slave to elemental decay isn't exactly what I'd call a 'victory' for Raistlin.

Whoracle
2008-05-23, 01:16 PM
However, becoming a mindless slave to elemental decay isn't exactly what I'd call a 'victory' for Raistlin.

Definately, but it brings us some interesting philosophical implications. Wouldn't Raistlin at least consider nurgle as patron? Given Raists mode of view with his Hourglass-eyes, he might even find it conforting.

Zenthar
2008-05-23, 01:24 PM
Okay, first off look at it this way. When you read a book or play a video game, do you want to know the ending? whats more fun, knowing who the killer was, or guessing and making theories? That's what the world is like to Tzeentch. My points are:
1 really, what is rasitlin stats? he has some, so he can be killed.
2 Can raistlin stop having any feelings forever? no anger or pleasure or hope or ambition or anything? if so he MAY have a chance of killing T. He would die after though, as the 40k universe would collpse with no gods and only raistlin.

Where does it say that about Tzeentch? Does it say that he just enjoys playing his own little games, and isn't really trying to achieve what he seemingly is? What about the other Chaos Gods? If they're just as powerful as Tzeentch, why don't they destroy the world? Some of them seem to want that.
1. Raistlin, when he's a god, does not have stats.
2. Why does it have to be in the 40k universe? And even if the fight is there, he could teleport back to Krynn. Why would Raistlin need to stop having any emotions forever? He doesn't necessarily have to kill Tzeentch to win.

DarthArminius
2008-05-23, 04:52 PM
I'd like to point out Raistlin defeated the god of magic with magic. Yes, he DID defeat the ocean by throwing water at it. If he could do that, I'm placing my bets on him just becoming so ambitious he takes the title and power out of Tzeentch's hands, or something.

Not to mention the gods themselves have no idea what Raistlin even is.

Even in Raistlin's less powerful form at the moment as a spirit, he is a god, kind of.

Revlid
2008-05-23, 05:52 PM
I'd like to point out Raistlin defeated the god of magic with magic. Yes, he DID defeat the ocean by throwing water at it. If he could do that, I'm placing my bets on him just becoming so ambitious he takes the title and power out of Tzeentch's hands, or something.

You really, really, don't understand what you're talking about. At all.
The D&D God of Magic is an extremely powerful entity who has been entrusted with or has taken it upon him/herself to represent the aspect of the universe named 'Magic'. A more powerful entity can potentially wrest this title from him.

Tzeentch is magic. He is not a being seperate from his title, or power. He is the title, he is the power, and he is very possibly the universe. True, Tzeentch sits, cogitating at the heart of his Impossible Fortress, sat on a chair carved from a single perfect diamond, scrying the inscrutable Well of Eternity. However, he is also the Well, for all that he does not understand it. He is also the diamond chair. And the Impossible Fortress. And the minor imp that scurries forth on an errand. And the fireball that bursts from a wizard's hands. And the treacherous thoughts that scurry through all mens heads. He is not a representative of growth - he is growth, and change, and hope, and magic.

A better analogy:
When Raistlin defeated the D&D god, it was like a warrior defeating a king and taking his crown, thus becoming the king and increasing his power.
If Raistlin were to try to defeat Tzeentch, it would be like a warrior attempting to increase his power by defeating and becoming the country. I don't just mean its army, or its king, or even its people. Or the animals that live there, or the grass that grows there, or the sun that shines on it, or the water that flows there. A warrior cannot, with mighty blade in hand, defeat a country, much less become it. Tzeentch is on an entirely different scale.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-23, 06:03 PM
...So, the reason that Tzeentch hasn't taken over is that he enjoys watching us struggle, which means he's as big a moron as any D&D balor?

And no, your analogy is flawed. What Raistlin did is akin to killing the Avatar of Blades with a sword, or the Lady of Pain with omnipotence.

puppyavenger
2008-05-23, 07:10 PM
You know, when I think of it, Rastlin is basicly an avatar of Tzeetch.
Sooo, anyone no how the poll turned out?

SmartAlec
2008-05-23, 08:28 PM
Not to mention the gods themselves have no idea what Raistlin even is.

But Tzeentch does. Because he literally knows everything.


...So, the reason that Tzeentch hasn't taken over is that he enjoys watching us struggle, which means he's as big a moron as any D&D balor?

There's important differences; a Balor isn't assured of being around until the end of existence, and is not necessarily in control of what is happening. Tzeentch is, and is.

I'm not sure where this 'Tzeentch hasn't destroyed all of creation, therefore he is less than Raistlin' thing came from. Not only are the Chaos Gods too busy with their eternal war against each other to really bother about annihilating physical worlds - they'll leave that to their pawns - but even if they didn't have any pawns, that wouldn't matter. They all embody destructive concepts found in every sentient being, and simply by existing, they are the eventual doom of everything.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is that if you're thinking of the Chaos Gods as something that can be 'defeated' or 'beaten', you just don't get it. I can't put it any other way. :smallconfused:

DarthArminius
2008-05-23, 10:09 PM
I guess what I'm trying to say here is that if you're thinking of the Chaos Gods as something that can be 'defeated' or 'beaten', you just don't get it. I can't put it any other way.

The Emperor of Man seems to be able to be capable of it even as a dying corpse. Should he become Star Child, he could actually give them a run for their money. Tzeentch said that.

If Tzeentch actually knew everything, he would doubtless get rid of Khorne. No reason to have something with more power than you if you are smarter than it like Einstein is smarter than an apt dolphin.

ChocolateChtulu
2008-05-24, 12:52 PM
Tzeentch is magic. He is not a being seperate from his title, or power. He is the title, he is the power, and he is very possibly the universe. True, Tzeentch sits, cogitating at the heart of his Impossible Fortress, sat on a chair carved from a single perfect diamond, scrying the inscrutable Well of Eternity. However, he is also the Well, for all that he does not understand it. He is also the diamond chair. And the Impossible Fortress. And the minor imp that scurries forth on an errand. And the fireball that bursts from a wizard's hands. And the treacherous thoughts that scurry through all mens heads. He is not a representative of growth - he is growth, and change, and hope, and magic.


Actually, I do not think that this is the case.

If I am not mistaken, the WH40k chaos "gods" are nothing more than fluctuations in the warp, caused by the accumulated emotions of the warp-sensitive races, which somehow achieved sentience.

So no, this Tzeentch dude is not magic - there was magic even before him, just like there was lust before Slaanesh, desperation before Nurgle, or wrath before Khorne; he is a being created *by* accumulated sorcery, treachery and ambitions, but he is not these things themselves - and, therefore, he could be defeated by an exceptionally powerful and manipulative wizard, at least in theory.

puppyavenger
2008-05-24, 01:02 PM
Actually, I do not think that this is the case.

If I am not mistaken, the WH40k chaos "gods" are nothing more than fluctuations in the warp, caused by the accumulated emotions of the warp-sensitive races, which somehow achieved sentience.

So no, this Tzeentch dude is not magic - there was magic even before him, just like there was lust before Slaanesh, desperation before Nurgle, or wrath before Khorne; he is a being created *by* accumulated sorcery, treachery and ambitions, but he is not these things themselves - and, therefore, he could be defeated by an exceptionally powerful and manipulative wizard, at least in theory.

Umm, yes, he's those things, he's the aculated amount of them. When there was enough ambition/smartness/magic, he was born from all of it put together.

LBO
2008-05-24, 02:20 PM
He hasn't taken over because that's not what Tzeentch is. He doesn't dominate, he manipulates. He likes watching people struggle because that's what Tzeentch does.

The Chaos Gods don't have specific "dominate the galaxy" aims like you think; they don't want so much to straight invade the universe. They're playing the long game and they are, fundamentally, in it for the lulz. Slaanesh just wants one galactic orgy, Nurgle wants everything to fall into despair and decay, Khorne just wants blood shed and skulls taken, Tzeentch wants to see change and ambition and effort and tentacles.

If specific actions will further those things, they'll take a hand, give a chap some power. It's not that their power is limited, it's that the universe is going to hell in a handbasket regardless, and they just want to make it their kind of hell.

Also, the Chaos gods will use mortals and daemons as their pawns, but the pawns failing doesn't mean the gods are weak, or even that they lost. It's usually not even Tzeentch saying "Abaddon, lad, get out there and do some damage", it's Abaddon going "my lord, I really want to teach the galaxy a lesson... for you, of course <3" and the chaos gods going "sounds like a laugh, have some power."

freerangetroll
2008-05-24, 02:30 PM
He hasn't taken over because that's not what Tzeentch is. He doesn't dominate, he manipulates. He likes watching people struggle because that's what Tzeentch does.

The Chaos Gods don't have specific "dominate the galaxy" aims like you think; they don't want so much to straight invade the universe. They're playing the long game and they are, fundamentally, in it for the lulz. Slaanesh just wants one galactic orgy, Nurgle wants everything to fall into despair and decay, Khorne just wants blood shed and skulls taken, Tzeentch wants to see change and ambition and effort and tentacles.

If specific actions will further those things, they'll take a hand, give a chap some power. It's not that their power is limited, it's that the universe is going to hell in a handbasket regardless, and they just want to make it their kind of hell.

Also, the Chaos gods will use mortals and daemons as their pawns, but the pawns failing doesn't mean the gods are weak, or even that they lost. It's usually not even Tzeentch saying "Abaddon, lad, get out there and do some damage", it's Abaddon going "my lord, I really want to teach the galaxy a lesson... for you, of course <3" and the chaos gods going "sounds like a laugh, have some power."

That's actually the best Chaos God explanation I have ever read. Kudos.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-24, 02:33 PM
That's a much better explanation. LBO, I call this thread a tie because of that.

Now, only for the sake of argument, I say Raistlin makes a spell that Creates Hope and Epic Goodness. What would that do for the Chaos gods, if it means things are NOT going to go to hell?

Zenthar
2008-05-24, 02:47 PM
Azerian, it'd probably make Tzeentch stronger. He's the god of hope too.

LBO, can you provide fluff proof for that? To me it seems like Tzeentch has tried to destroy the galaxy, though I don't claim to be right, and I've never said Raistlin would win. I'm not sure yet, because I don't know enough about Tzeentch. The thing is, Khorne and Nurgle especially would gain just that by invading the galaxy and destroying it. Why won't they? Khorne is said to be the most powerful of the Chaos Gods, even if Tzeentch is the one usually pulling the strings. If I was Tzeentch, I'd play the galaxy like a game rather than invade it and destroy it, just like you've described. But he's been driven back before, and his cults and such seem to indicate that he does wish for the destruction of the galaxy.

So, if you provide canon proof of what you've said, then I give it to Tzeentch.

"The Emperor of Man seems to be able to be capable of it even as a dying corpse. Should he become Star Child, he could actually give them a run for their money. Tzeentch said that."

What about this, also? Emperor as a Star Child could beat Tzeentch and the other CG's? Their power obviously isn't nearly that omnipotent, then.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-24, 02:50 PM
Azerian, it'd probably make Tzeentch stronger. He's the god of hope too.

LBO, can you provide fluff proof for that? To me it seems like Tzeentch has tried to destroy the galaxy, though I don't claim to be right, and I've never said Raistlin would win. I'm not sure yet, because I don't know enough about Tzeentch. The thing is, Khorne and Nurgle especially would gain just that by invading the galaxy and destroying it. Why won't they? Khorne is said to be the most powerful of the Chaos Gods, even if Tzeentch is the one usually pulling the strings. If I was Tzeentch, I'd play the galaxy like a game rather than invade it and destroy it, just like you've described. But he's been driven back before, and his cults and such seem to indicate that he does wish for the destruction of the galaxy.

So, if you provide canon proof of what you've said, then I give it to Tzeentch.

"The Emperor of Man seems to be able to be capable of it even as a dying corpse. Should he become Star Child, he could actually give them a run for their money. Tzeentch said that."

What about this, also? Emperor as a Star Child could beat Tzeentch and the other CG's? Their power obviously isn't nearly that omnipotent, then.

What about Good? If he's not the god of Good (Which I doubt, yanno. I doubt anyone is the anything of Good in GRIMDARK), he's screwed, especially if the spell is Create Epic Good that will always Win both in short term and Long term.

PlasticSoldier
2008-05-24, 03:05 PM
Well first Raistlin would have to cast it and Tzeentch would probably just go Rubric_of_Ahriman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thousand_Sons#The_Rubric_of_Ahriman) on his butt.


I think that a surge of Hope & Goodness might make the Slaanesh, Tzeentch, & Khorne less evil, but Tzeentch will have still planned on it happening. Although it might be possible that the Good would form into another Warp Entity.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-24, 03:10 PM
Something I've just realised, given Tippy and AK's reliance on epic spells ...

... isn't Tzeentch basically the GM (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/developingEpicSpells.htm)? :smallamused:

Revlid
2008-05-24, 03:32 PM
Actually, I do not think that this is the case.

If I am not mistaken, the WH40k chaos "gods" are nothing more than fluctuations in the warp, caused by the accumulated emotions of the warp-sensitive races, which somehow achieved sentience.

So no, this Tzeentch dude is not magic - there was magic even before him, just like there was lust before Slaanesh, desperation before Nurgle, or wrath before Khorne; he is a being created *by* accumulated sorcery, treachery and ambitions, but he is not these things themselves - and, therefore, he could be defeated by an exceptionally powerful and manipulative wizard, at least in theory.

Not really. There was magic, and there was Tzeentch. Both have been around just as long as each other, and given the optional nature of time in the Realm of Chaos, what created what is something of a chicken-egg scenario. Even if Tzeentch hadn't been around as long as magic, the moment he existed, he would have been.

Did the universe come into being billions of years ago, or five minutes ago, completely intact as it is now? Does it matter? It's the same with Tzeentch.

The moment a sentient being first lowered his head to watch the blood of the first victim dribble onto the ground, there was Khorne. Or was Khorne always there, dormant?
The moment a sentient being weathered the first winter, through guts and determination, Nurgle was born. Or had he always been there, in the snow and in the hearts of the desperate primitives, or earlier still, when the heart of the universe opened to expand forever into space?
The moment a sentient being first desired something more, first cried out in ecstasy, first coveted a neighbour's beast, Slaanesh's whispers echoed across the realities. Or perhaps s/he had simply been waiting, like an actoress tensed for hir cue.

Or perhaps, just perhaps, the realm of the gods, true gods, not jumped-up mortals by another name, is beyond the understanding of lesser beings, even as their hopes and fears and desires and hatreds create and shift it.

Perhaps we simply cannot understand it, our minds incapable of bending that far with breaking.

Perhaps... it is Just As Planned.

Zenthar
2008-05-24, 03:39 PM
Not really. There was magic, and there was Tzeentch. Both have been around just as long as each other, and given the optional nature of time in the Realm of Chaos, what created what is something of a chicken-egg scenario. Even if Tzeentch hadn't been around as long as magic, the moment he existed, he would have been.

Did the universe come into being billions of years ago, or five minutes ago, completely intact as it is now? Does it matter? It's the same with Tzeentch.

The moment a sentient being first lowered his head to watch the blood of the first victim dribble onto the ground, there was Khorne. Or was Khorne always there, dormant?
The moment a sentient being weathered the first winter, through guts and determination, Nurgle was born. Or had he always been there, in the snow and in the hearts of the desperate primitives, or earlier still, when the heart of the universe opened to expand forever into space?
The moment a sentient being first desired something more, first cried out in ecstasy, first coveted a neighbour's beast, Slaanesh's whispers echoed across the realities. Or perhaps s/he had simply been waiting, like an actoress tensed for hir cue.

Or perhaps, just perhaps, the realm of the gods, true gods, not jumped-up mortals by another name, is beyond the understanding of lesser beings, even as their hopes and fears and desires and hatreds create and shift it.

Perhaps we simply cannot understand it, our minds incapable of bending that far with breaking.

Perhaps... it is Just As Planned.

I must admit that the WH40k gods are far more interesting and "better" than the D&D or gods of many other setting. In D&D they're just super-powered humans/elves/whatever, and thus not really "gods." A lot of worlds have the same thing. If it was any D&D god, Tzeentch would win immediately no matter what, just his demons and marines could most probably overpower them. But Raistlin is above the others a lot.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-24, 06:13 PM
Something I've just realised, given Tippy and AK's reliance on epic spells ...

... isn't Tzeentch basically the GM (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/developingEpicSpells.htm)? :smallamused:

Trust me, it could be worse. Gimme a shaped AMF, Null psionics field, and a prismatic sphere, and there's no need for epic spells if you have a sufficiently enhanced crossbow.

puppyavenger
2008-05-25, 08:09 AM
Trust me, it could be worse. Gimme a shaped AMF, Null psionics field, and a prismatic sphere, and there's no need for epic spells if you have a sufficiently enhanced crossbow.

Did you hear about the ork weopon that sends a gretchin flying through hell into the targets chest cavity? Just saying, 40k has plenty of things to avoid physical barriers, besides magic, Rastlin doesn't

Dallas-Dakota
2008-05-25, 08:22 AM
I thought Raistlin, the GitP forum member.:smalltongue:

Revlid
2008-05-25, 08:37 AM
Trust me, it could be worse. Gimme a shaped AMF, Null psionics field, and a prismatic sphere, and there's no need for epic spells if you have a sufficiently enhanced crossbow.

Goddammit...

TZEENTCH DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY.

Spaceships the size of countries regularly use the Realm of Chaos as a short-cut across realspace - a sufficiently enhanced crossbow isn't going to do anything.

It would be like trying to kill Love with a spoon.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-25, 09:19 AM
The thing is, you can't kill the Chaos Gods because they ARE concepts and emotions, and you can't kill a concept. I mean, even if you could "kill" Tzeentch, he wouldn't DIE. I mean, so long as people continue to hope and to plan and to deceive and to use magic, Tzeentch will exist. And really, bringing a Chaos God into realspace is a BAD idea. Greater Daemons, creatures who, though mighty in the eyes of a mortal, are like trying to compare a tiny plastic figurine of Superman to the real thing, warp reality by their mere PRESENCE. Whats stopping the Chaos Gods from coming over to realspace (besides a lack of want, though I'm sure Khorne would love start tearin' things up) are twofold:

1. The Emperor
and
2. The Pylons created by the Necron, which block the warp off from realspace (partially)

If a Chaos God DID get into realspace, it would become akin to the Eye of Terror, a breach between realspace, and the Warp, and you'd be screwed anyway.

Destro_Yersul
2008-05-25, 09:27 AM
Yeah, Tzeentch just operates on a whole different scale. It's like that scene from Crocodile Dundee, when the guy is trying to mug them with a pocketknife, and Dundee says 'that's not a knife, THIS is a knife', and pulls out his 6 inch hunting knife. Except it's a cosmic-horror level warp entity instead of an Australian, and the hunting knife is a fifty-foot broadsword made of terror and pain.

Not to mention the fact that if it Threatens Tzeentch, it threatens the others as well, and he knows this. Fighting one Chaos God would be impossible enough already. Try fighting four at once.

DarthArminius
2008-05-25, 11:00 AM
The thing is, you can't kill the Chaos Gods because they ARE concepts and emotions, and you can't kill a concept. I mean, even if you could "kill" Tzeentch, he wouldn't DIE. I mean, so long as people continue to hope and to plan and to deceive and to use magic, Tzeentch will exist. And really, bringing a Chaos God into realspace is a BAD idea. Greater Daemons, creatures who, though mighty in the eyes of a mortal, are like trying to compare a tiny plastic figurine of Superman to the real thing, warp reality by their mere PRESENCE. Whats stopping the Chaos Gods from coming over to realspace (besides a lack of want, though I'm sure Khorne would love start tearin' things up) are twofold:

1. The Emperor
and
2. The Pylons created by the Necron, which block the warp off from realspace (partially)

If a Chaos God DID get into realspace, it would become akin to the Eye of Terror, a breach between realspace, and the Warp, and you'd be screwed anyway.

Actually, now that you mention it, Raistlin would probably only have trouble with Tzeentch.

Everyone else shouldn't be a problem.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-25, 11:06 AM
Actually, now that you mention it, Raistlin would probably only have trouble with Tzeentch.

Everyone else shouldn't be a problem.

... No... not really. I'd like to see him try and kill Khorne, seriously it would be hilarious. Khorne HATES magic, he sees it as cowardly, plus he's the most powerful of the four brothers (though Tzeentch is the oldest, his power comes from all his plots and his magic) Khornes brute strength and immunity to magic will be more than enough to tear Raistlin a new face.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-25, 11:50 AM
Did you hear about the ork weopon that sends a gretchin flying through hell into the targets chest cavity? Just saying, 40k has plenty of things to avoid physical barriers, besides magic, Rastlin doesn't

You apparently missed the part where the gretchin is burnt, shocked, petrified, launched into the warp, etc.

Asmodeus: Big. Brother. 'Nuff said.

Zenthar
2008-05-25, 11:51 AM
Asmodeus, so a human is stopping the chaos gods from entering. An emperor.

Destro, this is Raistlin against Tzeentch, don't bring the others in.

Asmodeus, nothing is "immune" to magic. He might be immune to direct magical attacks, but that doesn't mean Raistlin doesn't have million other ways to screw him up.

Destro_Yersul
2008-05-25, 12:13 PM
The point was that Tzeentch probably would, if he actually felt threatened. Whenever the four gods fight together against something, it's always Tzeentch that suggests it. You want to fight Tzeentch, you got it. And everything that goes with it.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-25, 12:34 PM
Asmodeus: Big. Brother. 'Nuff said.

Not. Really. Elaborate.


Asmodeus, so a human is stopping the chaos gods from entering. An emperor.
Asmodeus, nothing is "immune" to magic. He might be immune to direct magical attacks, but that doesn't mean Raistlin doesn't have million other ways to screw him up.


1. And the Emperor is the most powerful being currently known in 40k existence, born from the combined souls of the Earths most powerful primitive psykers (back when being a powerful psyker was much safer, because the Chaos Gods haven't formed yet. This is WAAAY back)
2. Many a powerful sorcerer or Psyker no doubt thought the same. They're dead.

Edit: As to 1, its worth noting that humans have the potential to be the most powerful psykers of all, far more powerful than the Eldar (its just that the Eldar are all psykers, and are alot better at controlling it than most humans)

Revlid
2008-05-25, 03:56 PM
Asmodeus, so a human is stopping the chaos gods from entering. An emperor.

Oh goody, someone who knows nothing about the 40k setting.

The Emperor is, technically, a human. He is also, however, Jesus to the power of thirteen, crossed with Merlin and Conan, with a good dose of genetic engineering.

He is also currently a warp entity, a god bound to his Golden Throne, who requires the sacrifice of millions of psykers every day just to prevent all Hell literally breaking loose across the galaxy.


Asmodeus, nothing is "immune" to magic. He might be immune to direct magical attacks, but that doesn't mean Raistlin doesn't have million other ways to screw him up.

GARHBLEFLARGHMEHLB.

Okay. Let me spell this out for you.

Khorne, Tzeentch, Slaanesh, and Nurgle are not physical beings. They cannot be 'screwed up'. They cannot be set on fire. They cannot be thrown into the sun. They cannot be defeated by magic swords, enhanced crossbows, or spells, epic or otherwise.

Khorne, to use the current example (since we seem to have established that Tzeentch would win) is the primordial embodiment of rage, hatred, etc. In his realm, both where he resides and which he is, an infinitely large battlefield filled with infinitely many soldiers of infinite capabilities wage a war against each other, for an infinite amount of time. Creating, sustaining, and becoming this impossible battle is basically what Khorne does in his leisure time.

The D&D 'Gods'? The ones Raistlin beat? They're about on par with the nastier servants of the Chaos Gods. So, yeah, he could beat a Lord of Change, or a Bloodthirster, probably quite easily. But Chaos Gods are on a whole different goddamn scale.

Even if it were possible that he could destroy them (and it's not, for him or anyone else) to do so would be to destroy the universe.

Zenthar
2008-05-25, 04:49 PM
Asmodeus,

Yet, he was/is a human. And that already proves that Tzeentch's power is not limitless, or anywhere near that. And some people have said there have been Chaos Gods as long as there have been humans or any other thinking race.

Revlid,

Yes, I do know quite a bit about 40k setting.
Raistlin, too, is technically a human, but Jesus to the power of thirteen, crossed with Merlin and Gandalf with a good dose of power granted to him by Godhood.

Okay, if they're not physical beings, so what?

Yes, the D&D gods are not all that impressive. Repeating that they're on a different scale won't change anything. Provide some proof.

Why would it destroy the universe?

DarthArminius
2008-05-25, 06:28 PM
Asmodeus,

Yet, he was/is a human. And that already proves that Tzeentch's power is not limitless, or anywhere near that. And some people have said there have been Chaos Gods as long as there have been humans or any other thinking race.

Revlid,

Yes, I do know quite a bit about 40k setting.
Raistlin, too, is technically a human, but Jesus to the power of thirteen, crossed with Merlin and Gandalf with a good dose of power granted to him by Godhood.

Okay, if they're not physical beings, so what?

Yes, the D&D gods are not all that impressive. Repeating that they're on a different scale won't change anything. Provide some proof.

Why would it destroy the universe?


Furthermore, as I have been saying the whole time, the Overgods of D&D aren't really "D&D gods" They are omnipotent, much like Chaos gods themselves. Raistlin may have actually beaten TWO of them when he conquered Krynn.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-25, 06:39 PM
Yet, he was/is a human. And that already proves that Tzeentch's power is not limitless, or anywhere near that. And some people have said there have been Chaos Gods as long as there have been humans or any other thinking race.

So... because he was human, Tzeentch is somehow less powerful? That makes no sense, all it means is that the Emperor is MORE powerful in the warp, not that Tzeentch is LESS. And I never said his power is limitless, I just said he can never truly die. And while thats untrue according to our timeline, it might as well be true in the Warp. the order from oldest to youngest is Tzeentch, Khorne, Nurgle, and Slaanesh. Tzeentch Khorne and Nergal were there from when the Old Ones seeded a great number of psyker races, but Slaanesh was born when during the Fall of the Eldar due to the massive build of self-indulgent, and highly psychic beings. However, time is irrelevant in the Warp, where no such concept exists, and the only reason the Chaos Gods didn't exist back in the time of the old ones, is because they were basically the only psyker race around, and even if there were other primitives who could tap into the warp, the Old Ones no doubt went to lengths to make sure their minds didn't cause undo turbulence in the Sea of Souls.

DarthArminius
2008-05-25, 06:41 PM
So what is Asmodeus'es answer to the fact that Raistlin can already beat monsters more powerful than any of Chaos'es servants? Face it, the GEOM, is probably only DvR 21.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-25, 06:44 PM
So what is Asmodeus'es answer to the fact that Raistlin can already beat monsters more powerful than any of Chaos'es servants? Face it, the GEOM, is probably only DvR 21.

Oooh you can beat a Greater Daemon, thats SO CUTE. What next, are you going to step on a pewter statue of a tank, and suddenly think you can beat a real tank? Because its pretty much the same thing. Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes =! Chaos Gods, anymore than a chicken is a T-Rex. Different ball parks my friend.

And no, you can't measure his power by D&D standards (anymore than you can measure Comic Book heroes to 40k tabletop stats.)

And whats more, how powerful is a DvR 21 god, what can they do?

DarthArminius
2008-05-25, 06:47 PM
Oooh you can beat a Greater Daemon, thats SO CUTE. What next, are you going to step on a pewter statue of a tank, and suddenly think you can beat a real tank?

And no, you can't measure his power by D&D standards (anymore than you can measure Comic Book heroes to 40k tabletop stats.)

And whats more, how powerful is a DvR 21 god, what can they do?

DvR 21 gods are as powerful to greater gods than the greater gods are to mortals.

They have absolute power over their dimensions. Ao, is possibly only DvR 21. For instance, if all the gods of Forgotten Realms attacked AO, they would be utterly curbstomped by him.

He isn't necessarily as great as a creature in Marvel such as the Pheonix, but he's probably at least as powerful as Galactus.

SmartAlec
2008-05-25, 06:50 PM
Yes, the D&D gods are not all that impressive. Repeating that they're on a different scale won't change anything. Provide some proof.

Why would it destroy the universe?

Because Chaos is in everything that is/was, to a greater or lesser extent. Removing that would undermine the whole of creation!

Anyhow, I'm not sure what you mean by 'proof'. As far as I can see it, those who know about Raistlin have said he is capable of near-limitless power, and those who know about Chaos have said, 'that's not going to cut it', and have given reasons why. Not sure what you want here. In the Realm of Chaos, only the Chaos Gods' whim is law, so computing power levels is pretty meaningless.

The matter of scale comes up a lot, because Chaos, really, is meant to be the ultimate answer to hope, and every big question. It's very much a big part of the bleakness of the Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 mythos (mythoses? mythes?) and the ultimate slapdown to any powerful figure in that universe (even the Emperor) because it doesn't matter how god-damned powerful you are, or how high you climb, or how great you become, you're still infinitesimally meaningless in the grand scheme of things because Chaos will win in the end and nothing can stop that. Only delay it.

So that's the issue with scale. In trying to say, 'a being sufficiently powerful can defeat Chaos', you've missed the point of Chaos. :smallconfused: If there's a similar concept in Dragonlance mythos - that Raistlin is eternal and metaphysically invincible, then fair enough, neither side can defeat the other. But if not, he's gonna lose.

DarthArminius
2008-05-25, 06:52 PM
So that's the issue with scale. In trying to say, 'a being sufficiently powerful can defeat Chaos', you've missed the point of Chaos. If there's a similar concept in Dragonlance mythos - that Raistlin is eternal and metaphysically invincible, then fair enough, neither side can defeat the other. But if not, he's gonna lose.

Raistlin is Fantasy's Doctor Doom. If you will.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-25, 06:52 PM
The matter of scale comes up a lot, because Chaos, really, is meant to be the ultimate answer to hope, and every big question. It's very much a big part of the bleakness of the Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 mythos (mythoses? mythes?) and the ultimate slapdown to any powerful figure in that universe (even the Emperor) because it doesn't matter how god-damned powerful you are, or how high you climb, or how great you become, you're still infinitesimally meaningless in the grand scheme of things because Chaos will win in the end and nothing can stop that. Only delay it.


μυθος -> μυθοι.
Mythos - Mythoi, I would think.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-25, 06:53 PM
Raistlin is Fantasy's Doctor Doom. If you will.

So.. He's a smart evil guy who routinely gets his ass beat by the good guys, despite being really awesome?

DarthArminius
2008-05-25, 06:54 PM
So.. He's a smart evil guy who routinely gets his ass beat by the good guys, despite being really awesome?

Actually Dr. Doom has been known to conquer things just as if not more powerful than a Chaos God.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-25, 06:55 PM
Actually Dr. Doom has been known to conquer things just as if not more powerful than a Chaos God.

Any proof of this statement?

DarthArminius
2008-05-25, 06:56 PM
In addition to Dr. Doom beating Odin, in Marvel Ultimate Alliance(non-canon, probably) and getting his power, I believe he's gotten The Beyonder's power before.

SmartAlec
2008-05-25, 06:56 PM
Raistlin is Fantasy's Doctor Doom. If you will.

Stretching this further, we are looking at something akin to Doctor Doom vs. The Heat Death of the Universe.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-25, 06:58 PM
In addition to Dr. Doom beating Odin, in Marvel Ultimate Alliance(non-canon, probably) and getting his power, I believe he's gotten The Beyonder's power before.

And Odin is comparable in power to beings who's mere presence in the material universe would no doubt cause all semblance of universal law (I.E. physics and the like) to roll over and die, how?

DarthArminius
2008-05-25, 06:59 PM
Conquering All Reality
But history repeated itself, and Doom became a villain on this Earth as well. When the heroes regained their memories, Doom helped them return to their own Earth via the Negative Zone, but when he attempted to abscond with Franklin, Doom was assaulted by Thor and cast back to Counter-Earth. With no super heroes to oppose him, Doom soon became ruler of Counter-Earth. He recruited Divinity, Dorma, Lancer, Shakti and Technarx as lieutenants, and won a decisive victory over the powerful Dreaming Celestial, which had attempted to claim Counter-Earth for itself. For a while, Doom ruled both Counter-Earth and Latveria simultaneously by projecting holograms back to Earth, but he ultimately found that Counter-Earth could never equal the utopia of his Latveria, so he returned to Earth to resume his duties in Latveria, leaving Lancer to rule Counter-Earth in his stead. Doom has also shown an infatuation with the X-Men's Storm (Ororo Munroe). Via the powers of a defective Cosmic Cube, Doom once merged two realities, creating one in which he ruled Earth as emperor, with Storm as his queen. Like all of such efforts to achieve supreme power, however, the power was eventually usurped from him, and normal reality restored.


Unleashing Terrax against the Fantastic Four, Doom was disintegrated when Terrax exploded in a blast of cosmic energy. Using the Ovoid technique, Doom transferred his mind into the body of an onlooker, Norman McArthur, an instant before his death. He eventually regained his original body from the Beyonder, who sent him back a short distance in time to participate in the “Secret Wars” on his artificially created Battleworld. There Doom briefly usurped the immense power of not only Galactus, but the Beyonder himself, though he eventually lost all of his stolen power. Back on Earth, Doom once more achieved world domination, using the Purple Man's mind control powers to subjugate the global population. Although Doom was able to solve most of the world's problems by using his work in Latveria as a model, he found the mindless obedience of humanity unsatisfying, and ultimately allowed the Purple Man to slip from his grasp during a conflict with the Avengers and Namor. [edit]

DarthArminius
2008-05-25, 07:00 PM
And Odin is comparable in power to beings who's mere presence in the material universe would no doubt cause all semblance of universal law (I.E. physics and the like) to roll over and die, how?


Quite simply, Odin cast a cantrip spell called "blow up Galaxy" out of his 0 level spell slot and had it work.

Zenthar
2008-05-25, 07:02 PM
Asmodeus, it means that other humans can be as/more powerful than Tzeentch too, then. And it was someone else who said that the Chaos god's powers are limitless.

SmartAlec, I mean quotes proving what you say isn't just made up by you. Quotes from the WH40k books. You don't win by saying "that's not going to cut it." I could say that Raistlin could simply wish Tzeentch to die, and that's that. It doesn't mean I'm right.

Raistlin still doesn't need to kill Tzeentch, only control.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-25, 07:04 PM
Quite simply, Odin cast a cantrip spell called "blow up Galaxy" out of his 0 level spell slot and had it work.

If the might of the Chaos Gods could be dragged into realspace, their very presence would rip a hole between the Warp and the Universe, and reality as mankind, and indeed all sentient races of the galaxy, know it, would cease to be, The galaxy would be the home of the gods, to do as they pleased, their insatiable thirst for power growing, they would no doubt set their sights on the galaxies nearby. I.E. if they were in realspace, they could probably do the same, by virtue of making reality in this galaxy their bitch.


Asmodeus, it means that other humans can be as/more powerful than Tzeentch too, then. And it was someone else who said that the Chaos god's powers are limitless.

Ima put it like this, beings of the warp, in the warp, operate like if they were fish in an eternal sea. Beings either of the warp, or with an innate connection to the warp, have certain levels of power. So, a regular daemon is like a shark, Greater Daemons are like those massive megaladons or w/e those ancient sharks were called, and the Chaos Gods are like mythical primordial beasts who live in the deep crags, powerful beyond the measure of mortal man. The Emperor is like a massive beast of the deeps, of which terror and hatred are felt for all the other beings of the sea. The souls of man and all other psychic races are as fish in the sea, mere food for the sharks, though some have power greater than that of the sharks, marking them out as powerful food to be coveted, but dangerous and ultimately needing to be tricked. However, physical creatures in the warp have no power, what makes these creatures as they are is their innate connection to the warp. In short, the only reason the Emperor CAN be more powerful, is because he has a warp presence, and his soul is powerful in the warp. Raistlin isn't and doesn't.


Raistlin still doesn't need to kill Tzeentch, only control.

You can't control change.

Zenthar
2008-05-25, 07:05 PM
If the might of the Chaos Gods could be dragged into realspace, their very presence would rip a hole between the Warp and the Universe, and reality as mankind, and indeed all sentient races of the galaxy, know it, would cease to be, The galaxy would be the home of the gods, to do as they pleased, their insatiable thirst for power growing, they would no doubt set their sights on the galaxies nearby. I.E. if they were in realspace, they could probably do the same, by virtue of making reality in this galaxy their bitch.

But The Emperor was about as powerful as the Chaos gods are? Why didn't he rip a hole, then?

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-25, 07:07 PM
But The Emperor was about as powerful as the Chaos gods are? Why didn't he rip a hole, then?

I think he did, to stop Goge Vandire.

Zenthar
2008-05-25, 07:14 PM
If the might of the Chaos Gods could be dragged into realspace, their very presence would rip a hole between the Warp and the Universe, and reality as mankind, and indeed all sentient races of the galaxy, know it, would cease to be, The galaxy would be the home of the gods, to do as they pleased, their insatiable thirst for power growing, they would no doubt set their sights on the galaxies nearby. I.E. if they were in realspace, they could probably do the same, by virtue of making reality in this galaxy their bitch.



Ima put it like this, beings of the warp, in the warp, operate like if they were fish in an eternal sea. Beings either of the warp, or with an innate connection to the warp, have certain levels of power. So, a regular daemon is like a shark, Greater Daemons are like those massive megaladons or w/e those ancient sharks were called, and the Chaos Gods are like mythical primordial beasts who live in the deep crags, powerful beyond the measure of mortal man. The Emperor is like a massive beast of the deeps, of which terror and hatred are felt for all the other beings of the sea. The souls of man and all other psychic races are as fish in the sea, mere food for the sharks, though some have power greater than that of the sharks, marking them out as powerful food to be coveted, but dangerous and ultimately needing to be tricked. However, physical creatures in the warp have no power, what makes these creatures as they are is their innate connection to the warp. In short, the only reason the Emperor CAN be more powerful, is because he has a warp presence, and his soul is powerful in the warp. Raistlin isn't and doesn't.



You can't control change.

But you can control Tzeentch.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-25, 07:15 PM
But The Emperor was about as powerful as the Chaos gods are? Why didn't he rip a hole, then?

He probably could have if he wanted to. He didn't. He couldn't protect humanity if they were in the Chaos Gods playground, so he kept it in check. the Chaos Gods don't. Besides, the whole point is his power was in the warp, and by virtue of being a psyker he could manipulate the energy of the warp in realspace. No doubt he was far more powerful in the warp than in realspace. The Chaos Gods don't work like this, they are beings OF the Warp, their whole being is warpstuff, whereas the Emperor is a physical shell, of this world, which uses the power of the warp to effect realspace, they are beings made of the energy of the warp. If you could somehow pull the Emperors soul out of the warp and put it in realspace, it probably would.


But you can control Tzeentch.

No, you can't, because he IS change.

DarthArminius
2008-05-25, 07:15 PM
If the might of the Chaos Gods could be dragged into realspace, their very presence would rip a hole between the Warp and the Universe, and reality as mankind, and indeed all sentient races of the galaxy, know it, would cease to be, The galaxy would be the home of the gods, to do as they pleased, their insatiable thirst for power growing, they would no doubt set their sights on the galaxies nearby. I.E. if they were in realspace, they could probably do the same, by virtue of making reality in this galaxy their bitch.



Ima put it like this, beings of the warp, in the warp, operate like if they were fish in an eternal sea. Beings either of the warp, or with an innate connection to the warp, have certain levels of power. So, a regular daemon is like a shark, Greater Daemons are like those massive megaladons or w/e those ancient sharks were called, and the Chaos Gods are like mythical primordial beasts who live in the deep crags, powerful beyond the measure of mortal man. The Emperor is like a massive beast of the deeps, of which terror and hatred are felt for all the other beings of the sea. The souls of man and all other psychic races are as fish in the sea, mere food for the sharks, though some have power greater than that of the sharks, marking them out as powerful food to be coveted, but dangerous and ultimately needing to be tricked. However, physical creatures in the warp have no power, what makes these creatures as they are is their innate connection to the warp. In short, the only reason the Emperor CAN be more powerful, is because he has a warp presence, and his soul is powerful in the warp. Raistlin isn't and doesn't.


You can't control change.

I really think that this is a draw, Asmodeus. A character as powerful as Odin isn't something to be scoffed at. Not only that, but the High God of Krynn is actually supposed to be a creature that makes that "greater than a god" enemy, Chaos, look like a mortal in comparison to him, and Raistlin STILL beat him.

Zenthar
2008-05-25, 07:18 PM
He probably could have if he wanted to. He didn't. He couldn't protect humanity if they were in the Chaos Gods playground, so he kept it in check. the Chaos Gods don't. Besides, the whole point is his power was in the warp, and by virtue of being a psyker he could manipulate the energy of the warp in realspace. No doubt he was far more powerful in the warp than in realspace. The Chaos Gods don't work like this, they are beings OF the Warp, their whole being is warpstuff, whereas the Emperor is a physical shell, of this world, which uses the power of the warp to effect realspace, they are beings made of the energy of the warp. If you could somehow pull the Emperors soul out of the warp and put it in realspace, it probably would.



No, you can't, because he IS change.


Tzeentch has his own personality, and he's more than the sum of his parts.

SmartAlec
2008-05-25, 07:23 PM
Tzeentch has his own personality, and he's more than the sum of his parts.

Well... yes and no. It's not even possible to pin Tzeentch down like that, really. Looked at one way, he does have a personality and a will of his own. Looked at another, he's simply the distilled essence of his parts and behaves accordingly. The proper answer would be that he's both.

As for the quotes, you're going to have to wait until I can scare up a friend's copy of Slaves to Darkness or one of the more recent Chaos books. In the interim, some quotes that indicate Raistlin is capable of attacking metaphysical concepts on a metauniversal level whilst in a level of reality in which no physical laws exist would be handy.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-25, 07:31 PM
Tzeentch has his own personality, and he's more than the sum of his parts.

He is change, given sentience by way of the Warp and its intimate interaction with the emotions of mortal beings with an innate connection with the warp. So yea he's more than the sum of his parts, but this just makes it all the more impossible to control him.

Zenthar
2008-05-25, 07:35 PM
Well... yes and no. It's not even possible to pin Tzeentch down like that, really. Looked at one way, he does have a personality and a will of his own. Looked at another, he's simply the distilled essence of his parts and behaves accordingly. The proper answer would be that he's both.

As for the quotes, you're going to have to wait until I can scare up a friend's copy of Slaves to Darkness or one of the more recent Chaos books. In the interim, some quotes that indicate Raistlin is capable of attacking metaphysical concepts on a metauniversal level whilst in a level of reality in which no physical laws exist would be handy.

I'll wait. Oh, and I want quotes that say "Tzeentch can attack Raistlin Majere." Or otherwise, he obviously can't. I want a quote that says Tzeentch can even see beings that come from Krynn. :smallamused:

Of course there are no quotes that say such thing about Raistlin ... he had no need to do such thing before. If Tzeentch is merely a concept - how can he do anything?

And why are you assuming that Raistlin would go to wherever Tzeentch is? And obviously Tzeentch can be attacked, destroyed or captured, since the Chaos Gods are practically keeping each other in check. You can't keep concepts in check.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-25, 07:39 PM
I'll wait. Oh, and I want quotes that say "Tzeentch can attack Raistlin Majere." Or otherwise, he obviously can't. I want a quote that says Tzeentch can even see beings that come from Krynn. :smallamused:

Of course there are no quotes that say such thing about Raistlin ... he had no need to do such thing before. If Tzeentch is merely a concept - how can he do anything?

And why are you assuming that Raistlin would go to wherever Tzeentch is? And obviously Tzeentch can be attacked, destroyed or captured, since the Chaos Gods are practically keeping each other in check. You can't keep concepts in check.

Because they're concepts given "form" (i use the term loosely, as they don't really have "forms" not in the physical sense anyway) and sentience, and born in a realm of pure energy. The reason they can do things and keep eachother in check is because of the relationship between the physical universe, and the Warp. Its hard to explain to someone who doesn't seem to know a hell of a lot about 40k.

Zenthar
2008-05-25, 07:41 PM
Because they're concepts given "form" (i use the term loosely, as they don't really have "forms" not in the physical sense anyway) and sentience, and born in a realm of pure energy. The reason they can do things and keep eachother in check is because of the relationship between the physical universe, and the Warp. Its hard to explain to someone who doesn't seem to know a hell of a lot about 40k.

Yeah, it's also hard to explain how Raistlin just would totally destroy Tzeentch to someone who doesn't know anything about Dragonlance. If you knew something, it'd be obvious. But, too bad :smallfrown:

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-25, 07:45 PM
Yeah, it's also hard to explain how Raistlin just would totally destroy Tzeentch to someone who doesn't know anything about Dragonlance. If you knew something, it'd be obvious. But, too bad :smallfrown:

Rare has the time been when I wanted to hit someone else over something as trivial as a forum, but the sheer perceived smugness of this response makes this one of those times...

(I say perceived because if you aren't being smug... it really sounds like it. If you are being smug, the above statement is true, if not, sorry for the above statement, but this sounds really smug)

Zenthar
2008-05-25, 07:46 PM
Rare has the time been when I wanted to hit someone else over something as trivial as a forum, but the sheer perceived smugness of this response makes this one of those times...

(I say perceived because if you aren't being smug... it really sounds like it. If you are being smug, the above statement is true, if not, sorry for the above statement, but this sounds really smug)

Well argued.

Shadrin
2008-05-25, 11:00 PM
I'll wait. Oh, and I want quotes that say "Tzeentch can attack Raistlin Majere." Or otherwise, he obviously can't. I want a quote that says Tzeentch can even see beings that come from Krynn. :smallamused:

Of course there are no quotes that say such thing about Raistlin ... he had no need to do such thing before. If Tzeentch is merely a concept - how can he do anything?

And why are you assuming that Raistlin would go to wherever Tzeentch is? And obviously Tzeentch can be attacked, destroyed or captured, since the Chaos Gods are practically keeping each other in check. You can't keep concepts in check.

How I see it, is that, essentially, it would be a draw. If Raistlin would ever enter into Tzeentch's domain, he'd be completely incapable of stopping Tzeentch. However, for that reason, Raistlin would be highly unlikely to do that, and since Tzeentch isn't capable of leaving the warp, Raistlin is pretty much immune to Tzeentch also.

Thus, you end up at a stalemate.

Revlid
2008-05-26, 06:19 AM
Well argued.

Dear lord, your use of total fallacious arguments and denial of any sources outside of your own makes me want to smack you one.

Let us assume, then, that there are two areas this battle can be fought in: The Realm of Chaos/Magic, and the Material Universe.

In The Realm of Chaos, Tzeentch wins. That's pretty much the only law of the place.

In the Material Universe, without the power of the Emperor (and the Webway gate, and the Pylons, and the Chaos Gods) to keep the Chaos Gods from having a big party in the material world, the Material Universe becomes part of the Realm of Chaos, and Tzeentch wins.

If we assume that the power of the Emperor etc. is still in the universe, then Raistlin has Epic Magic, while Tzeentch has an infinite legion of servants that can perform the equivalent of Epic Magic. Tzeentch wins through numbers.

EDIT: I've had a more in depth look at Raistlin, and I have to wonder where you're getting your claims of omnipotence from. As far as I can see, he's essentially just a mortal who, through a series of clever manipulations, managed to trick a god into being defeated (he couldn't defeat her on her plane). He then, with the power of aforesaid god, killed all the other gods, and was left the only living thing in existence, unable to create life.

This is basically Doctor Doom with the Odinforce in Marvel: Ultimate Alliance. A jumped-up mortal who gets his hands on too much power for him to properly handle, and ends up failing miserably to control it.

Omnipotent? He's about on the same level as a Greater Daemon in the Realm of Chaos.

Zenthar
2008-05-26, 08:43 AM
Dear lord, your use of total fallacious arguments and denial of any sources outside of your own makes me want to smack you one.

Let us assume, then, that there are two areas this battle can be fought in: The Realm of Chaos/Magic, and the Material Universe.

In The Realm of Chaos, Tzeentch wins. That's pretty much the only law of the place.

In the Material Universe, without the power of the Emperor (and the Webway gate, and the Pylons, and the Chaos Gods) to keep the Chaos Gods from having a big party in the material world, the Material Universe becomes part of the Realm of Chaos, and Tzeentch wins.

If we assume that the power of the Emperor etc. is still in the universe, then Raistlin has Epic Magic, while Tzeentch has an infinite legion of servants that can perform the equivalent of Epic Magic. Tzeentch wins through numbers.

EDIT: I've had a more in depth look at Raistlin, and I have to wonder where you're getting your claims of omnipotence from. As far as I can see, he's essentially just a mortal who, through a series of clever manipulations, managed to trick a god into being defeated (he couldn't defeat her on her plane). He then, with the power of aforesaid god, killed all the other gods, and was left the only living thing in existence, unable to create life.

This is basically Doctor Doom with the Odinforce in Marvel: Ultimate Alliance. A jumped-up mortal who gets his hands on too much power for him to properly handle, and ends up failing miserably to control it.

Omnipotent? He's about on the same level as a Greater Daemon in the Realm of Chaos.

Sigh, I am not denying any sources, I'm asking for them.

Yes, he did that. He, also, killed the High God and supposedly Ao, since he was the only being left in the universe.

Also, Tzeentch obviously does not have infinite legions of servants that can do epic magic. If he did have such, then nothing could stop him, and he's been stopped plenty o' times. Even one epic caster could probably ensure victory for Tzeentch in the material universe. These guys create solar systems and wipe out planets as a free action, as Tippy said. Can you provide some proof that Tzeentch has even one guy that can do those, and more?

Destro_Yersul
2008-05-26, 08:54 AM
One second, let me get my chaos codex. Here we go.

"Tzeentch is known by many titles, including the Changer of the Ways, Master of Fortune, Great Conspirator and Architect of Fate. He is the Great Sorceror, the god of magic and master of the mutable stream of destiny and time."

And another bit, on the Thousand Sons Legion, one of Tzeentch's many assets:

"In battle, the Sorcerors enchant their weapons and those of their unliving bodyguards. The bolts fired by the Thousand Sons Marines blaze with magical flame and explode with sorcerous blasts that burn the souls of their targets as much as they do physical damage."

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-26, 08:58 AM
Sigh, I am not denying any sources, I'm asking for them.

Yes, he did that. He, also, killed the High God and supposedly Ao, since he was the only being left in the universe.

Also, Tzeentch obviously does not have infinite legions of servants that can do epic magic. If he did have such, then nothing could stop him, and he's been stopped plenty o' times. Even one epic caster could probably ensure victory for Tzeentch in the material universe. These guys create solar systems and wipe out planets as a free action, as Tippy said. Can you provide some proof that Tzeentch has even one guy that can do those, and more?

Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes do that sort of stuff all the time in the Eye of Terror, where realspace and the Warp intersect. If a Chaos God were allowed into realspace, it would become as the Eye of Terror, and many of his servants COULD do those things with casual ease (let alone Tzeentch himself)

And whats to say the overgod didn't just pack up and leave. I mean, his world was destroyed and there was an insane, murderous mortal/god on the loose, isn't it likely he just said "**** this" and left? I mean its plausible.

Zenthar
2008-05-26, 09:48 AM
One second, let me get my chaos codex. Here we go.

"Tzeentch is known by many titles, including the Changer of the Ways, Master of Fortune, Great Conspirator and Architect of Fate. He is the Great Sorceror, the god of magic and master of the mutable stream of destiny and time."

And another bit, on the Thousand Sons Legion, one of Tzeentch's many assets:

"In battle, the Sorcerors enchant their weapons and those of their unliving bodyguards. The bolts fired by the Thousand Sons Marines blaze with magical flame and explode with sorcerous blasts that burn the souls of their targets as much as they do physical damage."


If that's a response to me.. that's nowhere near epic.

And also, everything I read contradicts what I'm being told here.

"Tzeentch does not want to conquer the material universe"

Well, that's not what it says here.

" The four great gods are often used as antagonists in their respective settings, frequently sparking great wars against other factions with the aim of gaining total domination over the entire setting "

From the Realm of Chaos sourcebook:

" These Chaos Gods were described as being enormously powerful, and were constantly seeking to extend their power into the real world, the realm of mortals. "

Shadrin
2008-05-26, 09:52 AM
If that's a response to me.. that's nowhere near epic.

And also, everything I read contradicts what I'm being told here.

"Tzeentch does not want to conquer the material universe"

Well, that's not what it says here.

" The four great gods are often used as antagonists in their respective settings, frequently sparking great wars against other factions with the aim of gaining total domination over the entire setting "

From the Realm of Chaos sourcebook:

" These Chaos Gods were described as being enormously powerful, and were constantly seeking to extend their power into the real world, the realm of mortals. "

First, Tzeentchs motivations are little relevant. Second, he does and doesn't want to conquer the world. It is, like LBO put it.



The Chaos Gods don't have specific "dominate the galaxy" aims like you think; they don't want so much to straight invade the universe. They're playing the long game and they are, fundamentally, in it for the lulz. Slaanesh just wants one galactic orgy, Nurgle wants everything to fall into despair and decay, Khorne just wants blood shed and skulls taken, Tzeentch wants to see change and ambition and effort and tentacles.

Zenthar
2008-05-26, 10:05 AM
First, Tzeentchs motivations are little relevant. Second, he does and doesn't want to conquer the world. It is, like LBO put it.

Tzeentchs motivations are relevant, since if he wants something but cannot get it, he's lacking. Yes, I know how LBO put it, but he didn't provide any quotes from official sources, while the official sources that I've seen seem to contradict what he says.

Shadrin
2008-05-26, 10:16 AM
The argument is, he has infinite power in the warp. It doesn't matter what Tzeentch is and isn't capable of outside of it.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-26, 10:20 AM
Tzeentchs motivations are relevant, since if he wants something but cannot get it, he's lacking. Yes, I know how LBO put it, but he didn't provide any quotes from official sources, while the official sources that I've seen seem to contradict what he says.

That might be true if we were talking about someone else, but this is TZEENTCH, he's all about infinitely complicated plans and plots, he doesn't care if it takes billions of years for him to accomplish his goals, the fact is they get accomplished. And then there's the fact that its basically been stated that, due to his nature, even if he DID accomplish all his goals and rule everything, he'd still be striving for constant change, so its really moot in the end.

DarthArminius
2008-05-26, 10:31 AM
And whats to say the overgod didn't just pack up and leave. I mean, his world was destroyed and there was an insane, murderous mortal/god on the loose, isn't it likely he just said "**** this" and left? I mean its plausible.

Not actually plausible. An Overgod of the lowest divine rank can take out entire pantheons, and the hecatoncheires'es ALL at once with a single action. DvR 21s are basically Q.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-26, 10:33 AM
Not actually plausible. An Overgod of the lowest divine rank can take out entire pantheons, and the hecatoncheires'es ALL at once with a single action. DvR 21s are basically Q.

So a being of such monumental power deciding sticking around when his world was destroyed and only one jumped up mortal is left isn't really worth his time isn't plausible? Because given how apathetic they seem, it seems like if they didn't really feel like it was worth the effort, they'd just leave and make a new world.

Revlid
2008-05-26, 10:37 AM
Tzeentchs motivations are relevant, since if he wants something but cannot get it, he's lacking. Yes, I know how LBO put it, but he didn't provide any quotes from official sources, while the official sources that I've seen seem to contradict what he says.

Warhammer Armies: Daemons of Chaos:
In Tzeentch's eyes, mortal creatures are immeasurably steeped in deceit and ambiguity, yet somehow live their brief and daily lives unaware of the countless contradictions and blemishes in their souls. To the Great Conspirator, such a playground presents an irresistible lure and challenge. Unsurprisingly, Tzeentch cannot help but dabble in the mortal realm, sometimes as part of the Great Game against his brother gods, but more often to satisfy his own instinctive urge to meddle, manipulate and control. It is quite possible that the Changer of Ways is completely and utterly mad, conjuring schemes that are deliberately self-defeating in worlds and dreamscapes only he can perceive. This is the most horrifying truth of all, for if Tzeentch is mad, then what is the mortal world save for an expression of his insanity!

So, yeah. Tzeentch 'dabbles' (in this case meaning routinely sending forth armies that would grind the combined armies of Lord of the Rings into a paste with a glance) in the mortal world for fun, and the mortal world may in fact simply be something he's dreaming.

So his motivation has, and is, being acheived. His own amusement.

DarthArminius
2008-05-26, 10:42 AM
So a being of such monumental power deciding sticking around when his world was destroyed and only one jumped up mortal is left isn't really worth his time isn't plausible? Because given how apathetic they seem, it seems like if they didn't really feel like it was worth the effort, they'd just leave and make a new world.

Actually, the High God is a god of good alignment. An allegory, actually, of the real life God.(he seems to not be here sometimes)

So... as long as the High God has a plan for Krynn, he wouldn't really leave.

Destro_Yersul
2008-05-26, 12:17 PM
Tzeentchs motivations are relevant, since if he wants something but cannot get it, he's lacking. Yes, I know how LBO put it, but he didn't provide any quotes from official sources, while the official sources that I've seen seem to contradict what he says.

Oh, so that's what you wanted quotes of, is it? Alright, here you go. This is also from the Chaos Codex:

"No man could fully comprehend the full nature of the intricately woven, multi-layered plots of Tzeentch, and even to attempt to do so is to court insanity. In fact, Tzeentch does not have a grand plan, an ineffable goal to fulfill. For Tzeentch the mere act of plotting and endlessly entwining the brief fates of mortals is fulfillment enough. There is no end to his scheming for he desires no end."

How's that?

Deadmeat.GW
2008-05-27, 01:05 AM
Hum, Ao was not actually said to be destroyed now was he?
Given that Ao is kinda not really a living creature in the same manner as the other beings in his multiverse.

He could have simply arranged for Tass and co to go back and stop the destruction unleashed by Raistlin, after all Ao never directly interferes.

Sliver_Slave
2008-05-27, 08:24 AM
I may be a Tzeentch fanboy, but I'm pretty sure Rasitlin could get a hand hold once that new eldar god kills slaanesh.

Also, to be comparative, when slaanesh went into realspace, it caused the death of trillions, millions more to go insane, and caused about an 8th of the galaxy to overlap with hell.

Revlid
2008-05-28, 06:57 AM
I may be a Tzeentch fanboy, but I'm pretty sure Rasitlin could get a hand hold once that new eldar god kills slaanesh.

Also, to be comparative, when slaanesh went into realspace, it caused the death of trillions, millions more to go insane, and caused about an 8th of the galaxy to overlap with hell.


Hell, that wasn’t even Slaanesh entering Realspace. That was the ripples caused by the Slaanesh entering Warpspace.