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Lord of Rapture
2008-05-19, 08:01 AM
The arena is the city of New York in our world. Their goal is to find and capture their opponent. Artemis has access to any captured fairy technology he has and Butler, and Lelouch has C.C. and his Geass before it becomes permanently active. Who will win?

Adumbration
2008-05-19, 08:35 AM
My money's on Artemis, after reading wikipedia entry on Lelouch. Although he may have the "Geass", he or his companions are simply no match to Butler with fairy technology.

thubby
2008-05-19, 10:09 AM
assuming geass works on fae, I'd go with lelouche. with it he can easily gain access to any technology he needs. indeed it could end as simply as lelouche walking up to arty and geassing him to death.

for reference, does artemis know lulu is zero?

Adumbration
2008-05-19, 11:02 AM
The main reason I'm putting my money on Artemis (well, the second reason), are the restrictions given on Geass by wikipedia. Are we going by it?


* Commands must be verbally issued.
* The issuing of commands may occur so long as eye contact is made with the victim within a radius of 270 meters. Line of sight via a reflective surface is sufficient for the effect to occur.
* Commands may be issued only once to any given individual, but any number of commands may be issued at initial application so long as eye contact is unbroken.
* The victim will not perform any action disallowed by their physical or mental capabilities. For example, asking a question the victim doesn't know the answer to will produce no effect.
* An action will be carried out for as long as dictated in its command, or upon the indicated conditional circumstance. Eye contact does not need to be maintained for command execution to occur.
* The victim will retain no memories from the duration of command issue and execution.
* As demonstrated in Princess Euphemia's response to the command that she kill the Japanese, a victim may resist a commanded action to some degree if it is utterly repugnant to them.
* So long as the above conditions are met, commands may be issued to anybody besides C.C. and to any number of individuals. The user himself may also be commanded.


Especially that. On your given example, I would say "dying" would be utterly repugnant to Artemis, and any order given to Butler to go against Artemis would meet great resistance. I would also say that it would be utterly repugnant for a fae to give out their technology, not to discount their own formidable powers - including mesmer, which is not so unlike Geass.

thubby
2008-05-19, 01:08 PM
The main reason I'm putting my money on Artemis (well, the second reason), are the restrictions given on Geass by wikipedia. Are we going by it?



Especially that. On your given example, I would say "dying" would be utterly repugnant to Artemis, and any order given to Butler to go against Artemis would meet great resistance. I would also say that it would be utterly repugnant for a fae to give out their technology, not to discount their own formidable powers - including mesmer, which is not so unlike Geass.

euphie lost within seconds, lulu has ordered men to kill themselves and one another, going so far as to order one persons second in command to kill them, which he did without hesitation.

Xefas
2008-05-19, 01:38 PM
Especially that. On your given example, I would say "dying" would be utterly repugnant to Artemis, and any order given to Butler to go against Artemis would meet great resistance. I would also say that it would be utterly repugnant for a fae to give out their technology, not to discount their own formidable powers - including mesmer, which is not so unlike Geass.

I feel I should point out that this was one of the most hypocritical points in the entire show. On multiple occasions, Lelouch tells people to "Die" and they happily shoot themselves in the head without a second thought. However, the show seems to think that Euphemia would be more against killing others than any human is against their own death. That's bull****, in my opinion.

However, while that is still canon, I will add that '"resistance", in this case, is that Euphemia yelled "Oh Nooooes" for about 10 seconds before picking up a gun and wantonly slaughtering all the Japanese like she was told to do- even so far as ignoring her own wounds to do so, and risking all life and limb.

So, if Artemis doesn't know how the Geass works, all Lelouch has to do is walk up to him and say "Die" and it's over.

If Artemis *does* know how the Geass works, then he'll win hands-down, because he's just flat-out smarter, and the Geass is pretty easy to avoid if you can prepare beforehand.

In a C.C. to Butler faceoff....well, C.C. is immortal, so I'm thinking a tie.

Rutee
2008-05-19, 02:30 PM
My money's on Artemis, after reading wikipedia entry on Lelouch. Although he may have the "Geass", he or his companions are simply no match to Butler with fairy technology.

Really? Not that I know either universe very well, but I'm told the Season 2 Knightmares are basically Super Robots.


That's bull****, it my opinion.
Mooks don't have heroic willpower, you silly boy. :smallwink:

Attilargh
2008-05-19, 02:41 PM
In a C.C. to Butler faceoff....well, C.C. is immortal, so I'm thinking a tie.
Also note that she can Mind Rape him with a touch. Butler's screwed.

Lulu is much larger a ham, and that can be used against him. However, in the end Lulu's more proficient at pulling stuff (including Xanatos Gambits) seemingly out of his ass, while Arty has to actually work to set them up. :smalltongue:

Xefas
2008-05-19, 02:46 PM
Mooks don't have heroic willpower, you silly boy. :smallwink:

I'm a little embarrassed that you caught a spelling error of mine; forever immortalized in quoted text for all the world to see.

Aside from that, however, I think the point still stands. Artemis could probably make his saving throw for a round or two, but he's gonna snuff it eventually no matter how much he doesn't want to die.

Revlid
2008-05-19, 03:32 PM
Also note that she can Mind Rape him with a touch. Butler's screwed.

Butler managed to resist the Fairy Mind Rape for a goodly number of seconds - if he had been able to see said fairy at the time (and he will be able to see Lelouch, that's a requirement) he could have killed her in that time.

Remember, this is a man who broke through a futuristic armoured door designed to withstand futuristic tank rounds with his shoulder and a run-up. He has a gun that fires bullets so large they blast holes in the walls the size of melons, and he fires it with one hand, perfect aim.
Butler is not to be trifled with - if his overwhelmingly instinctual and basic need to protect Artemis is enough to overcome the Geass for even three seconds (which, by all evidence, it will be) then Lelouch is a fine red paste.

And if Artemis knows about the Geass (and he'll likely find out somehow) then Lelouch insta-loses - he's just that much smarter. I wouldn't be surprised if he'd appropriated it for himself by the end of the battle, somehow.

GoC
2008-05-19, 08:47 PM
Especially that. On your given example, I would say "dying" would be utterly repugnant to Artemis, and any order given to Butler to go against Artemis would meet great resistance. I would also say that it would be utterly repugnant for a fae to give out their technology, not to discount their own formidable powers - including mesmer, which is not so unlike Geass.
A. She was the shows incarnation of purity and goodness and was ordered to perform a massacre.
B. She lasted about 5 seconds.
C. It's the only known occasion of his power being resisted.

thubby
2008-05-19, 09:55 PM
i feel i should also mention his geass works independent of him after use. once he gives the word he can run like a ninny if need be, and it never stops. if Mr.turbo butler were to resist long enough to kill lelouche, he would still turn around and kill artemis eventually. also keep in mind, euphie's resistance was spent i the fedal position crying

EDIT: even assuming he could resist a direct death command, lelouche could use something more innocuous. "do pushups" simple enough command, but in practice would kill him from eventual exhaustion.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-20, 07:55 AM
A. She was the shows incarnation of purity and goodness and was ordered to perform a massacre.
B. She lasted about 5 seconds.
C. It's the only known occasion of his power being resisted.

Try shooting a Wizard or high level D&D cleric with a Dominate Monster. The same thing happens when you hit a Xanatos Gambiteer. The willpower is ginormous.

Rutee
2008-05-20, 08:02 AM
Try shooting a Wizard or high level D&D cleric with a Dominate Monster. The same thing happens when you hit a Xanatos Gambiteer. The willpower is ginormous.

I don't think you quite understood. There's no save, you just obey. IIRC, Euphy is a Messiah-like figure.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-20, 08:27 AM
I don't think you quite understood. There's no save, you just obey. IIRC, Euphy is a Messiah-like figure.

As said, we're talking about Masterminds. If anything, I'm placing a bet Artemis would last long enough to create a schizo personality that never surfaces and which is the one that got the order, while he continues doing his gambits. Butler wouldn't, though he'd stand up for a few seconds.

Yes, it makes no sense, but it is precisely the kind of thing a mastermind would do.

Artemician
2008-05-20, 08:45 AM
As said, we're talking about Masterminds. If anything, I'm placing a bet Artemis would last long enough to create a schizo personality that never surfaces and which is the one that got the order, while he continues doing his gambits. Butler wouldn't, though he'd stand up for a few seconds.

Yes, it makes no sense, but it is precisely the kind of thing a mastermind would do.

Narm. Artemis is an incredibly smart human. He's not a super genius in the likes of a Q or a Marvel/DC genius.

Regular human, even if they are incredibly smart have no way to resists a Geass. If Lelouch gets one off it's game set and match.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-20, 08:46 AM
Narm. Artemis is an incredibly smart human. He's not a super genius in the likes of a Q or a Marvel/DC genius.

Regular human, even if they are incredibly smart have no way to resists a Geass. If Lelouch gets one off it's game set and match.

Considering the EXTREMELY useful things he invents, I'd say he's orders of magnitude more intelligent. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ReedRichardsIsUseless)

Zeful
2008-05-20, 08:50 AM
Artemis & Butler would wear sunglasses, breaking eye contact (the fae mesmir worked the same exact way), tada, instant immunity. Butler starts beating things to death or shooting them, which ever is more speedy/useful.

Artemician
2008-05-20, 08:50 AM
Considering the EXTREMELY useful things he invents, I'd say he's orders of magnitude more intelligent. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ReedRichardsIsUseless)

He's a human with more street smarts. He doesn't have the capability to consciously create splinter personalities to contain unbreakable mind control commands that work by physically rewiring your brain.

A paragon of Mindliness or WillPower, like a high level D&D character, a Demon Lord, or a Superhero might be able to resist the Geas. Artemis is not of that kind of power.


Artemis & Butler would wear sunglasses, breaking eye contact (the fae mesmir worked the same exact way), tada, instant immunity. Butler starts beating things to death or shooting them, which ever is more speedy/useful.

Eye contact is indeed required for Lelouch's Geas to work. That's why he keeps his head sealed all the time. A much more relevant question to this thread is under what circumstances would Artemis place himself in a position to be Geassed.

Rutee
2008-05-20, 08:58 AM
Considering the EXTREMELY useful things he invents, I'd say he's orders of magnitude more intelligent. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ReedRichardsIsUseless)

Reed Richards is Useless is a specific choice taken for reasons that don't reflect on the character; The reasoning being "Marvel wants the world to be recognizable". If Reed fixes everything, we stop looking at our world. This arguably makes it a more immersive experience, but most American companies don't like to change the status quo much, to keep it as easy as possible for a new customer to jump into the product.

It's kinda like how getting beaten by Squirrel Girl doesn't count.

Verruckt
2008-05-20, 08:59 AM
seeing as how Artemis is usually wearing mirrored contacts at all times, is eye contact even strictly possible? Can the Gaess stop Lulu from getting a Sig Sauer round in the brain pan from 100 feet off? Or a tranq dart in the neck from further? Can Lulu see invisibility? Because all it takes is Holly putting that neutrino to the base of his spine and he is out.

Also note that artemis was able to calculate fluctuations in a literally shattered time stream to reverse events that happened seconds earlier while injured, and being shot at, feet from an active volcano, whilst priming a bomb, in his head. And had the presence of mind to steal the use magic itself from the fairy race shortly afterward.


Butler managed to resist the Fairy Mind Rape for a goodly number of seconds - if he had been able to see said fairy at the time (and he will be able to see Lelouch, that's a requirement) he could have killed her in that time.

Remember, this is a man who broke through a futuristic armoured door designed to withstand futuristic tank rounds with his shoulder and a run-up. He has a gun that fires bullets so large they blast holes in the walls the size of melons, and he fires it with one hand, perfect aim.
Butler is not to be trifled with - if his overwhelmingly instinctual and basic need to protect Artemis is enough to overcome the Geass for even three seconds (which, by all evidence, it will be) then Lelouch is a fine red paste.


ooh ooh, don't forget the bit where he killed a bull male troll with a mace and his hands. 12 feet of talons, tusks and teeth, and he killed it with gauntleted fists... while gored through the lungs, and bleeding to death. The kind of thing that LEP recon calls out whole strike teams for, with his hands...

Adumbration
2008-05-20, 09:05 AM
Artemis & Butler would wear sunglasses, breaking eye contact (the fae mesmir worked the same exact way), tada, instant immunity. Butler starts beating things to death or shooting them, which ever is more speedy/useful.

Actually, they wouldn't. They would be wearing glasses modified to work like the fairy helmet, and they would be blasting away with fairy cannons.

... In any case, I think we need to establish how much they know of each other in the beginning. I think Artemis' connections - the fae, the criminals, heck, even the police - would win the day. And let's not forget about gagdets. One of those sound grenades would do wonders.


seeing as how Artemis is usually wearing mirrored contacts at all times, is eye contact even strictly possible? Can the Gaess stop Lulu from getting a Sig Sauer round in the brain pan from 100 feet off? Or a tranq dart in the neck from further? Can Lulu see invisibility? Because all it takes is Holly putting that neutrino to the base of his spine and he is out.

Also note that artemis was able to calculate fluctuations in a literally shattered time stream to reverse events that happened seconds earlier while injured, and being shot at, feet from an active volcano, whilst priming a bomb, in his head. And had the presence of mind to steal the use magic itself from the fairy race shortly afterward.

Ah, yes, that too. I had all but forgotten the details of the last book*.

*last book I read.

Zeful
2008-05-20, 09:12 AM
Actually, they wouldn't. They would be wearing glasses modified to work like the fairy helmet, and they would be blasting away with fairy cannons.

... In any case, I think we need to establish how much they know of each other in the beginning. I think Artemis' connections - the fae, the criminals, heck, even the police - would win the day. And let's not forget about gagdets. One of those sound grenades would do wonders.



Ah, yes, that too. I had all but forgotten the details of the last book*.

*last book I read.

What I referenced was from the first book alone (is Atremis Fowl the first book?). Atre is ridiculously smart. With his connections, knowledge and willingness to believe most things, he won't underestimate anyone.

Also the goal is to capture, NOT kill. So Art just keeps restarting until he wins.

AslanCross
2008-05-20, 09:37 AM
Apparently the forum ate my post.

For all the above reasons, it would have to boil down to who finds out about the other first.

If they know about each other---they're likely to team up, in the loosest sense of the world, likely constantly trying to one-up the other.

"Artemis Fowl. I have a proposition for you."
"Interesting. I have one for you as well."

Aidan305
2008-05-20, 09:53 AM
I'm going to go with Artemis on this.

To start with, Artemis is intellegent, yes, but he's also extremely cautious. (The Spiro incident being one of the few exeptions.) Depending on what circumstances caused this Artemis would most likely have time to make whatever preperations he requires as well as take the time to learn as much as he can about Lelouch. Reconaissance is a certainty, and given Artemis's technology, he would be able to easily track Lelouch while Lelouch would have a much more difficult time discovering the whereabouts of Artemis.

Having discovered the likely whereabouts of Lelouch, Artemis will create a number of plans, each of which can be adapted to another if necessary, few of which will require going anywhere near Lelouch. While mirrored contacts are unlikely, mirrored sunglasses are entirely possible and can be worn in case he does have to come into close range. Using himself as bait for example.

The end result is, that Butler will be able to put a tranq dart in the back of Lerouche's neck from several hundred feet away.

Game: Artemis

Xefas
2008-05-20, 12:05 PM
I'm going to go with Artemis on this.

To start with, Artemis is intellegent, yes, but he's also extremely cautious. (The Spiro incident being one of the few exeptions.) Depending on what circumstances caused this Artemis would most likely have time to make whatever preperations he requires as well as take the time to learn as much as he can about Lelouch. Reconaissance is a certainty, and given Artemis's technology, he would be able to easily track Lelouch while Lelouch would have a much more difficult time discovering the whereabouts of Artemis.

Having discovered the likely whereabouts of Lelouch, Artemis will create a number of plans, each of which can be adapted to another if necessary, few of which will require going anywhere near Lelouch. While mirrored contacts are unlikely, mirrored sunglasses are entirely possible and can be worn in case he does have to come into close range. Using himself as bait for example.

The end result is, that Butler will be able to put a tranq dart in the back of Lerouche's neck from several hundred feet away.

Game: Artemis

To start with, Lelouch is intelligent, yes, but he's also extremely cautious. Depending on what circumstances caused this, Lelouch would most likely have time to make whatever preparations he requires as well as take the time to learn as much as he can about Artemis. Reconnaissance is a certainty, and given the ability to enslave the entire population of New York and have them work against his enemies, he would be able to easily track Artemis while Artemis would have a much more difficult time discovering the whereabouts of Lelouch.

Having discovered the likely whereabouts of Artemis, Lelouch will create a number of plans, each of which can be adapted to another if necessary, few of which will require going anywhere near Artemis. While mirrored contacts are unlikely, mirrored sunglasses are entirely possible and can be worn in case he does have to come into close range. Using himself as bait for example.

The end result is, that a few thousand citizens armed with tranquilizer guns will be able to put a tranq dart in the back of Artemis's neck from several hundred feet away while Lelouch sips scotch in his secret base miles away from harm.

Adumbration
2008-05-20, 12:27 PM
New York City, population 8,2 millions. Even to get a few thousand of them under extremely elaborate Geass effect would take an enormous amount of time, and to what avail? The probability of any of them knowing a squat approaches 0% from the other side, and to arm them with tranq guns and send running around is worse than stupidity. (And what would say, the police force, do about a guy running a mass of mind-controlled people?)

While one boy and man easily hide in the masses, almost no one or nothing can hide from the fae technology - trust me on this. And if they get Foaly or other fae on their side, perhaps becouse they wonder how on earth a human has managed to get powerful mesmer, it would be even easier.

Really, Artemis has dealt with people - the fae - with abilities much like Lelouch for years on a daily basis, and has outsmarted them on more than one occasion. Lelouch should be a piece of cake.

warty goblin
2008-05-20, 01:45 PM
Going back to the spoken Geass thing, and Butler's hand cannon, let's have some fun with math.

The range of the Geass is what, 270 meters, correct? Since the Geass is spoken, it would seem to require the subject to hear it, is that correct?

Now the speed of sound in room temperature air is about 343 meters/second, meaning that from maximum range the Geass will take .8 seconds to reach target.

Now on to Butler's hand cannon. I'm not sure what sort of ammo it uses, but it blows big holes in things, suggesting a rather powerful cartridge. For puposes of this I'm going to use the .50 BMG round for all of my calculations, since it also tends to blow very large holes in things, and also has excellent ballistic properties, making it just the sort of thing Butler would use. It has a velocity of something like 900m/s, meaning that it would travel the maximum Geass range in about .3 seconds. Hence if both saw each other as a threat and acted at exactly the same time at maximum range, Lelouch would suddenly find himself with a fist sized hole through his torso a full half second before his attack had any effect whatsoever.

Even if the effect of the Geass is instantanious and not dependant on the subject actually hearing the words, it can, as shown, be resisted at least temporarily. All Butler has to do is to resist it long enough to fire once. Standing, I can draw and aim a weapon in around a second, and I'm not trained, so I'll bet Butler can do it even faster.

Adumbration
2008-05-20, 01:51 PM
It also requires eye-contact and is apparently nulled by ordinary sunglasses. At least so I've gathered?

Blue Paladin
2008-05-20, 02:10 PM
A lot of Artemis' magitechnical advantage is negated by the choice of arena: New York in our world. He has whatever tech he has on him at the time, and there's no guarantee it'll even work in our sadly mundane world. It's probably why the OP included Butler, who is basically Touhou Fuuhai from G Gundam (or more specifically, Taisa from KimiAru :P) with guns, and C.C. who is clearly outmatched (yet unkillable). Compared to Butler, she's a speed bump, not an obstacle. So it comes down to Lelouch getting Artemis into Geass position before Butler gets to Lelouch.

And of course, this depends on them knowing who their target is in the first place. If all they're given is a name, that makes things nearly impossible in a city like New York. I'm sure Artemis could hide and never be found if he chose, but he doesn't strike me as the type to do so. Lelouch is arrogant enough to keep his first name the same even when hiding from his world's most aggressive militant government; his "low-profile" isn't much of one. That said, he doesn't do anything flashy; that's what his Zero persona is for. Since Lelouch has no need of a symbol to rally people around, he doesn't need to be Zero.

Given the setting, I think that Artemis sticks out and attracts more attention from the authorities than Lelouch. Artemis would likely be overwhelmed by the 8 million people in one city (compare to Haven City, the bustling metropolis of ten thousand). Granted, I'm only thinking along these lines because someone mentioned schizophrenia, and I think sudden displacement into agoraphobic conditions would be far more intense :P If someone sets off Butler (it is New York; someone's going to do it eventually...), it just gets worse. That's a seven-star situation just waiting to happen.

I imagine Lelouch spending days in the library, reading how Caesar succeeded 2000 years prior, the "mythical" status of the philosopher's stone, and the curious notion of nuclear power.

Now that I think of it, all Lelouch has to do is Geass everyone he comes across into capturing Artemis for him. That turns it from a two-on-two situation to a two-on-eight-million. I don't think even Artemis and Butler can get out of those odds...


New York City, population 8,2 millions. Even to get a few thousand of them under extremely elaborate Geass effect would take an enormous amount of time, and to what avail? The probability of any of them knowing a squat approaches 0% from the other side, and to arm them with tranq guns and send running around is worse than stupidity. (And what would say, the police force, do about a guy running a mass of mind-controlled people?)Why would he need anything more elaborate than "Capture this boy, Artemis Fowl, and bring him to me. So Lelouch Vi Britannia commands"? They're pretty much autonomous at that point. And why would he need to arm them? They're just fodder anyway. Against Butler's unmatchable skill, victory can only come through sheer weight of numbers.

I would think the police force would be the first Geass targets anyway. Along with the military, fire department, coast guard... Anyone in a uniform, really. As a bonus, most of them come pre-armed. For select groups, he can throw in more elaborate orders if he really wants, although I don't see what else would help.

And 8.2 million is the whole point. Artemis hasn't had to deal with this kind of population scale before. He's probably going to be floored by the very idea of that many people in that little space. For an idea, try this (http://www.kokogiak.com/megapenny/) page and apply it to people. Haven City is 1/5 of this (http://www.kokogiak.com/megapenny/four.asp). NYC is this (http://www.kokogiak.com/megapenny/seven.asp). It's significant.


The range of the Geass is what, 270 meters, correct? Since the Geass is spoken, it would seem to require the subject to hear it, is that correct?The range is correct, but that's just for the little red symbol to fly out and "hit" the target. Once eye contact is made, the little red tinge appears around the iris. The subject waits patiently for the command.


Even if the effect of the Geass is instantanious and not dependant on the subject actually hearing the words, it can, as shown, be resisted at least temporarily. All Butler has to do is to resist it long enough to fire once. Standing, I can draw and aim a weapon in around a second, and I'm not trained, so I'll bet Butler can do it even faster.Butler is not sainted like Euphie :P And if he's gunning down random dark haired schoolchildren with .50s, it really will be 8 million on two, with no intervention from Lelouch at all.


It also requires eye-contact and is apparently nulled by ordinary sunglasses. At least so I've gathered?Requires eye contact, yes. Ordinary glasses are not a barrier. It requires a special eyeband (Mao) or special contact lens (manufactured to C.C.'s spec, probably by the Chinese Federation) to block; specifics on the "special" part are unknown.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-20, 02:46 PM
So you strip 'im of his resources?

*Slow clap*

Artemis' big advantages are: Fairy tech, contacts, money, and being as brilliant as David Xanatos, if not more. You take three of his advantages out, which is not exactly what I'd call fair.

If you go and do that, then Lelouch is stripped of the Geass. Just to even things out.

AslanCross
2008-05-20, 05:46 PM
Lelouch has been shown to Geass several people at a time. He's done this in the train twice. It's also clearly shown in Ep 6 of the second season
when he infiltrates the battleship Nunnally is on. He Geasses two men simultaneously to kill themselves.

Also, the animation they use over and over again happens instantaneously in real time. It's just one of those dramatic anime slow-downs. In ep 7 of the second season, he issues commands in rapid succession. http://youtube.com/watch?v=RAcaQe4Tgd4&feature=related

If he is indeed faced with a heavily-armed opponent whom he knows is as good at tactics and planning as he is, he's likely to get the police under his control first. Furthermore, he is not absolutely reliant on the Geass. The only member of the Black Knights he's Geassed is Kallen. All the rest follow him (well, Zero) more loyally than not (some still have reservations). He might have been thinking ahead about this---it would be totally stupid to surround himself with people he could no longer use the Geass on at a later time.

Lelouch has proven to be resourceful enough to build up a resistance force against an aggressive superpower in only a few months' time. Of course, the Black Knights are totally useless without Zero, but the threat level they pose is much more than a Redshirt squad.

Lelouch has at many times been shown to use limited resources to beat overwhelming force. Most recently, in the second season: He sank an entire Britannian fleet by blowing up a methane plant on the sea floor underneath them. All he had was a map, a radio, and a submarine armed with six torpedoes. He wasn't even in the submarine. Again, this was against an entire Britannian battle group.

Seraph
2008-05-20, 07:53 PM
Lelouch. all he needs is a gun.

1) go to a largely populated area.

2) get on elevated point.

3) fire gun into the air.

4) when everyone looks at him in shock, use geass to command them all to capture Artemis.

5) repeat as neccesary, geass any authorities that come calling.

GoC
2008-05-20, 07:55 PM
Try shooting a Wizard or high level D&D cleric with a Dominate Monster. The same thing happens when you hit a Xanatos Gambiteer. The willpower is ginormous.

It's not about willpower but about how much against their nature the command is.
For example telling a solar to massacre children will be resisted for several seconds but telling a 100th level wizard with a +200 will save will result in a resistance time of 0 seconds.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-20, 08:09 PM
It's not about willpower but about how much against their nature the command is.
For example telling a solar to massacre children will be resisted for several seconds but telling a 100th level wizard with a +200 will save will result in a resistance time of 0 seconds.

Not so much. Willpower is a MUCH bigger factor in the equation, considering the Fowlverse even has the mesmer as it's own version and it can be resisted with sufficent willpower. In your example, that wizard could possibly go for days on end before yielding.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-20, 08:20 PM
It's not about willpower but about how much against their nature the command is.
For example telling a solar to massacre children will be resisted for several seconds but telling a 100th level wizard with a +200 will save will result in a resistance time of 0 seconds.

Commanding Artemis not to do exactly what he wants to do is just about as against his nature as something can possibly be. Commanding Butler to act against Artemis is likewise just about as against his nature as something can possibly be.

Not to mention that both regularly wear mirrored contacts and/or glasses, which makes eye contact impossible.

Rutee
2008-05-20, 08:56 PM
Commanding Artemis not to do exactly what he wants to do is just about as against his nature as something can possibly be. Commanding Butler to act against Artemis is likewise just about as against his nature as something can possibly be.

The show's messiah lasts a grand total of 5 seconds in resisting an order to begin an organized slaughter.


It's not about willpower but about how much against their nature the command is.
For example telling a solar to massacre children will be resisted for several seconds but telling a 100th level wizard with a +200 will save will result in a resistance time of 0 seconds.
Well, the Solar Perfects it away, the Wizard Mindblanks, but that's not the point.


Not so much. Willpower is a MUCH bigger factor in the equation, considering the Fowlverse even has the mesmer as it's own version and it can be resisted with sufficent willpower. In your example, that wizard could possibly go for days on end before yielding.
You're drawing a conclusion that doesn't really follow; That the people of the Fowlverse have more willpower then in Code Geass. This might work for Fairies, but it seems improbable for the Humans.

I still thought it was funnier that they'd just set up an interesting deal.

Blue Paladin
2008-05-21, 10:54 AM
So you strip 'im of his resources?

*Slow clap*

Artemis' big advantages are: Fairy tech, contacts, money, and being as brilliant as David Xanatos, if not more. You take three of his advantages out, which is not exactly what I'd call fair.

If you go and do that, then Lelouch is stripped of the Geass. Just to even things out.I'm doing nothing of the sort. The OP has taken those advantages out by moving the confrontation to a neutral location (New York). You are also for some reason ignoring the fact that he has Domovoi freaking Butler.

And guess what? Lelouch is simultaneously stripped of many of his own advantages: tech (Knightmare frames), allies/contacts (Japan Liberation Front, Ashford Foundation), money (won from chess gambling), not to mention his own personal army (Black Knights) and combat aces (Kallen, Toudou). Instead of Butler, Lelouch gets C.C. the Easily Dispatchable (she'll come back to life so you can easily kill her again!). And now you want to take away his Geass?

No, I'm not the one setting arbitrary rules here.

Read the OP. Artemis has whatever fairy tech he has on him. He's not Batman with the Batcave; he's just Batman with the utility belt.


Willpower is a MUCH bigger factor in the equation, considering the Fowlverse even has the mesmer as it's own version and it can be resisted with sufficent willpower. In your example, that wizard could possibly go for days on end before yielding.Why do you assume mesmer is anything like Geass? Mesmer is more like a charm/dominate person. Lelouch's Geass reaches into the brain and physically re-wires it into compliance.


Commanding Artemis not to do exactly what he wants to do is just about as against his nature as something can possibly be. Commanding Butler to act against Artemis is likewise just about as against his nature as something can possibly be.And what if the Geass for Butler is "Serve me as you would Artemis"?


Well, the Solar Perfects it awayDamn Dodge Charms!

SITB
2008-05-21, 12:17 PM
Ehh, they would probably engage in an elaborate espionage and counter espionage operations 'till they come to the conclusion that if they would directly clash a lot of people would be harmed; therefore they will decide to settle this in the one true way of teen geniuses.

An Epic Chess battle.

The winner gets a try versus Lord Vetinari.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-21, 12:23 PM
I'm doing nothing of the sort. The OP has taken those advantages out by moving the confrontation to a neutral location (New York). You are also for some reason ignoring the fact that he has Domovoi freaking Butler.

And guess what? Lelouch is simultaneously stripped of many of his own advantages: tech (Knightmare frames), allies/contacts (Japan Liberation Front, Ashford Foundation), money (won from chess gambling), not to mention his own personal army (Black Knights) and combat aces (Kallen, Toudou). Instead of Butler, Lelouch gets C.C. the Easily Dispatchable (she'll come back to life so you can easily kill her again!). And now you want to take away his Geass?

No, I'm not the one setting arbitrary rules here.

Read the OP. Artemis has whatever fairy tech he has on him. He's not Batman with the Batcave; he's just Batman with the utility belt.

Why do you assume mesmer is anything like Geass? Mesmer is more like a charm/dominate person. Lelouch's Geass reaches into the brain and physically re-wires it into compliance.

And what if the Geass for Butler is "Serve me as you would Artemis"?

Damn Dodge Charms!


Pshaw, so it's merely Mindrape?

That doesn't work without Gate to do Tippy's Gaterape, so it really is a nonissue.

Not to mention, Artemis wouldn't have ANY fairy tech, because he is not stupid enough to lug it around when he's it's not expressely needed. Thus, no tech. Which hurts his case considerably, since L still gets his big trick, while Artemis loses all of his (No money? Check. No contacts? Check. No tech? Check). The OP unwittingly set a one-sided scenario. Thus, we're forced to either rewrite it or admit it IS skewered and thus not even worth the time.

TheElfLord
2008-05-21, 12:28 PM
Read the OP. Artemis has whatever fairy tech he has on him. He's not Batman with the Batcave; he's just Batman with the utility belt.


Okay, lets read the OP:


Artemis has access to any captured fairy technology he has and Butler,

This doesn't say Artemis just has the fairy tech he is carrying. He can have all the things he has gained in the series. Note the use of the word ANY in the OP. So he really is Batman with the Batcave. You can't just make up words and add them to the OP then demand people follow your altered version.

GoC
2008-05-21, 05:00 PM
Not so much. Willpower is a MUCH bigger factor in the equation, considering the Fowlverse even has the mesmer as it's own version and it can be resisted with sufficent willpower. In your example, that wizard could possibly go for days on end before yielding.
The Fowlverse has another version that can be resisted with willpower? Is that relevant?


Commanding Artemis not to do exactly what he wants to do is just about as against his nature as something can possibly be. Commanding Butler to act against Artemis is likewise just about as against his nature as something can possibly be.
They lack the simple nature for that to be feasible and there's no way it can be as much against their nature as Euphie's command (maybe telling him to kill himself could be resisted for a second or so but nothing else would). Many people who are very strong willed yield instantly to the Geass.


Not to mention that both regularly wear mirrored contacts and/or glasses, which makes eye contact impossible.
Ah, then I suppose it gets rather difficult.

Rutee
2008-05-21, 05:13 PM
An Epic Chess battle.

The match must be made of win and wtf (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WhatDoYouMeanItsNotAwesome), clearly.

hylian chozo
2008-05-22, 10:11 AM
The OP specified that the goal is to capture the opponent. If Lelouch orders Artemis to kill himself, Artemis will tell him that he loses by a technicality before pulling the trigger. It's just the kind of thing he would do.

Artemician
2008-05-22, 10:29 AM
Okay, lets read the OP:

This doesn't say Artemis just has the fairy tech he is carrying. He can have all the things he has gained in the series. Note the use of the word ANY in the OP. So he really is Batman with the Batcave. You can't just make up words and add them to the OP then demand people follow your altered version.

To be fair to Blue Paladin, the statement is pretty vague; what about technology that can't be carried by Artemis? Where would he put it? How much of it does he have? etc.


The OP specified that the goal is to capture the opponent. If Lelouch orders Artemis to kill himself, Artemis will tell him that he loses by a technicality before pulling the trigger. It's just the kind of thing he would do.

Then Lelouch orders Artemis to stand down and surrender. Or to go to sleep. Or whatever. Ordering someone to kill himself is only of the myriad applications of the Geas.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-22, 10:30 AM
To be fair to Blue Paladin, the statement is pretty vague; what about technology that can't be carried by Artemis? Where would he put it? How much of it does he have? etc.



Then Lelouch orders Artemis to stand down and surrender. Or to go to sleep. Or whatever. Ordering someone to kill himself is only of the myriad applications of the Geas.

Does the Geass work on nonsapient creatures? Does it need a language in common?

Artemician
2008-05-22, 10:35 AM
Does the Geass work on nonsapient creatures? Does it need a language in common?


* Commands must be verbally issued.
* The issuing of commands may occur so long as eye contact is made with the victim within a radius of 270 meters. Line of sight via a reflective surface is sufficient for the effect to occur.
* Commands may be issued only once to any given individual, but any number of commands may be issued at initial application so long as eye contact is unbroken.
* The victim will not perform any action disallowed by their physical or mental capabilities. For example, asking a question the victim doesn't know the answer to will produce no effect.
* An action will be carried out for as long as dictated in its command, or upon the indicated conditional circumstance. Eye contact does not need to be maintained for command execution to occur.
* The victim will retain no memories from the duration of command issue and execution.
* As demonstrated in Princess Euphemia's response to the command that she kill the Japanese, a victim may resist a commanded action to some degree if it is utterly repugnant to them.
* So long as the above conditions are met, commands may be issued to anybody besides C.C. and to any number of individuals. The user himself may also be commanded.


Sorry, that's all I can find at the moment. Judging from this.. I would say yes - I've never seen Lelouch order around people in any language other than English or Japanese, and I don't think he has ordered any animals around as far as I know. I haven't watched Season 2 tho, so take this with a pinch of salt.

Blue Paladin
2008-05-22, 02:02 PM
Not to mention, Artemis wouldn't have ANY fairy tech, because he is not stupid enough to lug it around when he's it's not expressely needed. Thus, no tech.Riiiight. Now who's accusing whom of skewing the situation?


[Artemis] can have all the things he has gained in the series. Note the use of the word ANY in the OP.Yes, I'll note the word is any, not all. And I'll also note the words access to.

Batman has access to sonic weaponry, a kryptonite ring, a giant penny, three or more powered suits, and a robot dinosaur. Fat lot of good any of that does him when he's running around Addis Ababa.

Unless he brought it with him.

So [Artemis] really is Batman with the Batcave.No, he's Batman with whatever he might have taken with him to New York. Still, this is not an insignificant amount.

Gods. The lot of you are acting like Lelouch's victory is a foregone conclusion; why the hell are you giving up on Artemis freaking Fowl so easily!?


If Lelouch orders Artemis to kill himself, Artemis will tell him that he loses by a technicality before pulling the trigger. It's just the kind of thing he would do.Actually I had imagined this exact scenario reversed, with Butler closing in inexorably on Lelouch. Lelouch smirks and puts a gun to his head: "You lose."

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-22, 03:04 PM
In any case, this does not matter, because I've just found how Artemis manages to win.

Xanatos Gambit, of course. First, nab a few tigers and set 'em free amongst Lelouch's zombie horde. In the chaos, sneak in with one of those small bubblemaking hoops and find Lelouch's room. Then, make bubbles enter the room through a ventilation system. Since the bubbles will have been conveniently made with some substance that causes sleep, it's then just a matter of capturing the geass guy.

And it didn't require any fairy tech, just knowledge of The Crimson Circle!

GoC
2008-05-22, 04:00 PM
Xanatos Gambit, of course. First, nab a few tigers and set 'em free amongst Lelouch's zombie horde.
They're nowhere near a "zombie horde". They maintain all their intelligence and knowledge while under geass.


And it didn't require any fairy tech, just knowledge of The Crimson Circle!
And knowledge of who Lelouch is.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-22, 04:16 PM
They're nowhere near a "zombie horde". They maintain all their intelligence and knowledge while under geass.


And knowledge of who Lelouch is.

Sorry, but if you have to keep repeating something until death, you go under zombie.

Indeed, it doesn't require it, because you can follow a trail of thousands upon thousands upon etc. of zombies to reach the man behind 'em.

AslanCross
2008-05-22, 04:50 PM
Sorry, but if you have to keep repeating something until death, you go under zombie.

Indeed, it doesn't require it, because you can follow a trail of thousands upon thousands upon etc. of zombies to reach the man behind 'em.

Sorry, that's not how several of the (named) characters that got Geassed acted. They still do retain their capabilities, and although to a lesser extent, their personalities.
Okay:

-Viletta, apart from her assent to Lelouch using her Knightmare, was still lucid enough to toss her key in a fancy manner at Lelouch. She was not going "Have my Knightmare. Have my Knightmare. Have my Knightmare."
-Most notably, Jeremiah. Apart from his blatant treason, he still managed his arrogant air, and was screaming at his subordinates when they refused to obey his command to let Suzaku go.
-Clovis said everything he knew. Granted he was a lot less frightened in his Geassed state.
-Cornelia also said everything she knew. She was badly injured in that scene and must have been weak, but was otherwise not brain dead.
-Euphemia, despite the command being totally against her personality, went out and JOYFULLY slaughtered the Elevens. Doesn't sound like a zombie to me.

The only people who really froze up when they were Geassed were the people on the train, presumably because Lelouch just told them to sit down and leave him alone. The guys in the video I posted earlier were only doing exactly as they were told. If Lelouch told them to tell him everything they knew, they would.

Anyway, Lelouch has never used the Geass on nonsapient creatures. The only animal shown repeatedly in the anime is a stray cat.
Lelouch's Geass in particular requires a language in common, as he's never used it without a command.
Other Geasses do not.
-Rolo's Mass Hold Person Geass is nonverbal and requires no eye contact.
-Mao's Detect Thoughts Geass requires no eye contact and it bothered Mao to the point that he had to wear earphones playing C.C.'s voice clips over and over again to shut out the psychic noise.
-The Emperor's Greater Mindrape Geass seems to be a stronger version of Lelouch's, and has only been shown to require a verbal command and direct eye contact.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-22, 05:00 PM
Wait, language in common?

:belkar:

"Commander, deploy the tigers!"