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Muz
2008-05-19, 09:09 PM
I haven't seen a thread for Indy 4 around here yet, so I figured I'd start one for pre-speculation and post-viewing reviews once people have seen it. (Don't forget spoiler tags!)

I've been avoiding reading much about it, myself. Partially I want to go in fresh, partially I'm just afraid of reading something bad. Indy isn't as big a Star Wars or LOTR, but still, it's a darned fun franchise (stupid dinner scene notwithstanding). I've already blogged about my own pre-movie thoughts (http://michaelgmunz.blogspot.com/2008/05/regarding-indy-4.html), so for the moment here I'll just say I'm looking forward to it but trying not to hype myself up...and hoping it doesn't suck. :smalleek:

So what's everyone else think? :smallsmile:

http://www.yellowstonemotorhed.com/catalog/images/crystal%20skull.jpg

blakyoshi7
2008-05-19, 10:45 PM
Just in case you didn't know, crystal skulls are real-life artifacts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_skull) of dubious origin.

Serpentine
2008-05-20, 06:08 AM
I'm really looking forward to it. I'm intending to wait 'til a couple of days after it comes out, though, to let the crowds bugger off. I'm thinking of having some people around to watch the first three, and then go see it :smallsmile:

On crystal skulls, they've gotta be one of the lamer sorts of "mysterious objects", really. There's one single example that could be somehow "genuine" and mysterious, but even it has, as blak says, a dubious origin. It does look cool, though.

Muz
2008-05-20, 10:49 AM
I figure I'll have to see it this weekend or risk losing my will to avoid reviews. Plus I'm just darned curious and impatient. :smallsmile:

I knew the crystal skulls were real, though I hadn't read about their suspected 19th-century manufacture. (I suppose that's what I get for only being exposed to them through Ripleys Believe It or Not and Stargate, huh?)

Still, better Indy fodder than sending him to the Bermuda Triangle or Loch Ness.

Coming summer 2011: Indiana Jones and the Secret of Al Capone's Vault! :smalleek:

Don Beegles
2008-05-20, 12:59 PM
I'm looking forward to the movie. I figure that it has potential to be awesome or completely suck, with little or no middleground. Indications for awesomeness are that Spielberg is directing it and John Williams is doing the music, and Shia LaBouef is generally a good actor. Of course, Last Crusade came out in '89, and 19 years is a long time to make a viable fourth movie, especially since Ford hasn't been in anything very good for a while. It's a crap shoot, I think, but I'm more than willing to roll the dice.

Helanna
2008-05-20, 04:33 PM
Wow . . . '89? Longer than I thought.

I'm pretty excited about the movie . . . to tell the truth, though, I only just saw the first 3 for the first time this month. I thought they were really, really good though, and I'm going to see the new movie this Friday. (Guess who has off of school!!) Thank God for Memorial Day weekend. :smallbiggrin:

Tirian
2008-05-20, 05:23 PM
Still, better Indy fodder than sending him to the Bermuda Triangle or Loch Ness.

Coming summer 2011: Indiana Jones and the Secret of Al Capone's Vault! :smalleek:

Hey, stick an undersea Lovecraftian temple in the middle of the Triangle and I'm in. :smallbiggrin:

Seriously, a significant theme of the IJ movies has been the validation of the supernatural power inherent in the world's major religions (Judiasm, Hinduism, and Christianity respectively ). Taking on the Mayans is even a significant downgrade; it's a pity because there was apparently some psuedomysticism in the mid 20'th century bringing together the notions of ley lines and feng shui and the notion that building sites in ancient China were chosen to be centers of earth-based power. What better targets for kooky Soviet expansionists? But anyway.

Yeah, I'm scared of this film too. The Fugitive is the last role that Harrison Ford didn't phone in, and that was fifteen years ago. Is returning to his roots going to reinvigorate him or drive him deeper into his rut? Spielberg is more than capable of making great films, but is this going to be a movie or a nostalgic reminiscence of how great the action movies were in the eighties were?

Muz
2008-05-20, 06:06 PM
I do remember reading (in what I think was a Variety article) about how Spielburg wasn't wanting to use any of the more recent editing styles. I believe he was mostly referencing the quick cuts and shakey-cams that, while are theoretically designed to give a sense of urgency and action, just wind up being disorienting--if not downright irritating. I don't know if that would make it a nostalgic reminiscence, but I do look forward to seeing an action movie that allows the audience some sense of what's going on. :smallsmile:

As for phoning it in since The Fugitive, you didn't like Clear and Present Danger or Air Force One?

JadedDM
2008-05-20, 06:56 PM
I have a really bad feeling this whole movie will be a jumping point for a new movie series, "Son of Indiana Jones" staring Shia Labouf. I hate that kid. :smallmad:

TheThan
2008-05-20, 07:41 PM
I love a good adventure movie, and since they are few and far between nowadays this has really got me stoked. I like a good surprise, and I like going in with no expectations, so I havenít watched any movie trailers.

Yes an undersea Lovecraftian temple in the middle of the Bermuda Triangle would kick so much ass. Aside from that, I think in one of the Indiana Jones PC games they made many (Secret of Monkey island age here) moons ago he discovered the lost city of Atlantis.

Muz
2008-05-20, 08:11 PM
I have a really bad feeling this whole movie will be a jumping point for a new movie series, "Son of Indiana Jones" staring Shia Labouf. I hate that kid. :smallmad:

Wait until the Son of Indy/Transformers crossover! :smallwink:

Seriously, though, I think Lucas has said he's leaning in that direction. I...really don't like that idea, though I suppose I can ignore those movies if they do come out. They won't be Indiana Jones movies, though; you CAN'T do Indy without Ford. Just doesn't work.

Tirian
2008-05-20, 08:50 PM
As for phoning it in since The Fugitive, you didn't like Clear and Present Danger or Air Force One?

I thought that Danger was a real drop-off from Hunt for Red October and Patriot Games, and honestly I didn't bother with Air Force One. He had a very long string of movies where he played Joe Everyman having to run an incredible gantlet for great justice, and to me he looked just a little bit less surprised or outraged every time it happened even when he was playing a new guy. That might be just me; I might have been getting frustrated that he was being consistent and I felt like I should be paying for something that he hasn't shown me before.

On the other hand, I DID see Hollywood Homicide on opening night and I still haven't gotten over the cruel theft of those two hours from my life. Afterwards, I recall seeing interviews that he gave in which he was unbelievably disengaged. At that point, I vowed to no longer be more excited about his movies than he was.


They won't be Indiana Jones movies, though; you CAN'T do Indy without Ford. Just doesn't work.

Well, The Young Indiana Jones Chronicles wasn't a phenomenon, but neither was it an embarrassment. It's probably like the James Bond movies after Sean Connery: you can make them and when they do it can be difficult to argue that they shouldn't have bothered even if you think the first guy was better.

purple gelatinous cube o' Doom
2008-05-20, 09:02 PM
I for one am very excited about the movie. I love Indy movies, and Raiders of the Lost Ark is my favorite movie. The film was shown at Cannes yesterday to overwhelmingly positive reactions ( a lengthy standing o). I also read that Lucas may have plans for a 5th installment in the works, but has yet to run anything by Spielberg and Ford yet. I'll likely see it on Friday. I'd really like to go see it on opening night, which is Thursday, but having to be at work at 7AM isn't conducive to that.

poleboy
2008-05-21, 01:16 AM
I'm definitely looking forward to it. I'm also worried of how LaBoeuf will affect the movie. I really hate wisecracking teens in my movies, so I'm hoping there won't be too much of that. If he takes a backseat to Indy and maybe pops in with a bit of heroics here and there that'll be fine with me. I sure hope they're not going to let him take over the movie just because he's a better cash cow than Ford.

Serpentine
2008-05-21, 01:39 AM
I heard that Harrison Ford's being keeping in shape for the last 20 years just on the off-chance that they might do another Indy movie. Dedication much?

Don Beegles
2008-05-21, 07:49 AM
Heheh, if that's true, I'd almost call it falsee hope instead of dedication. Of course, they did make another Indy movie, but it still smells like Ford wishing he could go back to his glory days.


And why all the Shia hate, JadedDM? My friend doesn't like him either, but as far as I can see, he's a pretty good actor. I admit, I wouldn't want to see him as the new Indy, but I don't dislike him.

Actually, that raises a good question. Noone could be as good as Harrison, but if they continued to make Indiana Jones movies who should be the new "Indy"?

Dristin
2008-05-21, 08:00 AM
Saw it last night. It was not bad. I think it was probably a little better than Temple of Doom but it would be hard to be better than Last Crusade or Raiders. Overall it was good and I will not go into any details until later. It was worth seeing and was just a fun action movie. Do not go into this thinking it will reinvent the seiries.

Darken Rahl
2008-05-21, 01:39 PM
I wish River Phoenix hadn't caused his own untimely demise. I likely would have enjoyed him as Indy.

JadedDM
2008-05-21, 03:39 PM
And why all the Shia hate, JadedDM? My friend doesn't like him either, but as far as I can see, he's a pretty good actor. I admit, I wouldn't want to see him as the new Indy, but I don't dislike him.

Why? Because of THIS (http://www.celebrific.com/daily-dose-of-zen-shia-labeouf-takes-harrison-ford-for-a-ride/).

Nobody makes Harrison Ford ride bitch. Nobody! :smallfurious:

Don Beegles
2008-05-21, 05:00 PM
Oh, I see. Yes, that makes it all so clear. That's almost a crime.

On another note; Ford looks ancient in that picture. It's probably just because he's making a stereotypical "Oh, I'm terrified by this whipper-snapper's speed." It makes him look jowly and not his macho self, and I don't like it.

Muz
2008-05-21, 05:49 PM
The film was shown at Cannes yesterday to overwhelmingly positive reactions ( a lengthy standing o).

Are you sure about this? I heard there was a lot of cheering when the movie started, but less cheering when it ended, and that it was rated as "just okay" at Cannes.

Then again, my source was a radio station morning show, so it's not exactly infallible.

Don Beegles
2008-05-21, 05:53 PM
My girlfriend (who feels about the film the same way I do, and will probably see it with me) said that it got five out of five stars somewhere that she'd read, but I can't for the life of me recall where.

Mauve Shirt
2008-05-21, 09:57 PM
My friend sheckells saw a premiere of it at his school, he said it was awesome. Apparently there's something at the end that will leave you sort of WTF?!?

kpenguin
2008-05-21, 10:09 PM
77% on Rotten Tomatoes isn't too bad.

Muz
2008-05-21, 10:35 PM
My friend sheckells saw a premiere of it at his school, he said it was awesome. Apparently there's something at the end that will leave you sort of WTF?!?

Before or after the credits? (Actually, if anyone who's seen it could mention if anything IS after the credits, that'd be cool. Don't spoil us of course, but I wouldn't mind hearing if I should wait or not. That doesn't really seem to be a Spielburg thing to do, though.) :smallsmile:

Deth Muncher
2008-05-22, 02:01 AM
Right, so I just saw the movie. What. The. Bloody. Hell. I'm not going to give away anything, other than the fact that if you can think of a movie cliche, it's probbably in there. and the fact that you can spot things miles in advance. MILES, I tell you. Also, I'm joining the Shia-hate Train: He sucks.


Edit: I will say this for the positive side though. The movie starts out looking like Jones is old enough to have a foot in the grave, but as the movie goes on, they strip the age away little by little until you'd swear if it wasn't for the hair, he was as old as he was in '89.

Inyssius Tor
2008-05-22, 02:01 AM
There's nothing after the credits, but the WTF parts aren't that bad. The action parts are totally in the style of every one of the previous movies, and as for the... other bits: anyone who thinks they're ridiculously over-the-top might look again at the ghost-women from Raiders of the Lost Ark, or all that nonsense in Temple of Doom...

Excellent movie. I believe with utter certainty (don't even try to argue with me, haters!) that it is as good as the first and third movies, and no one with any sense at all can say it has anywhere near the level of antiquality displayed in the second movie. It's done in pretty much exactly the same style as the previous three, if amped up a bit. Someone here wanted a Cohen the Barbarian vibe, and it looks like they got just what they wished for. I hope they milk this merchandising opportunity for all it's worth, because I don't have the other three on DVD and I would love a good boxed set of all four.

Deth Muncher
2008-05-22, 02:06 AM
There's nothing after the credits, but the WTF parts aren't that bad. The action parts are totally in the style of every one of the previous movies, and as for the... other bits: anyone who thinks they're ridiculously over-the-top might look again at the ghost-women from Raiders of the Lost Ark, or all that nonsense in Temple of Doom...

Excellent movie. I believe with utter certainty (don't even try to argue with me, haters!) that it is as good as the first and third movies, and no one with any sense at all can say it has anywhere near the level of antiquality displayed in the second movie. It's done in pretty much exactly the same style as the previous three, if amped up a bit. Someone here wanted a Cohen the Barbarian vibe, and it looks like they got just what they wished for. I hope they milk this merchandising opportunity for all it's worth, because I don't have the other three on DVD and I would love a good boxed set of all four.


Come now.
Soviets, mummies, aliens, Mayans, the giant pictographs, CGI animals...?! It was as if they tried to take EVERY loose end in history and tie it all up. To that extent, I say good job. But I mean, honestly, cmon. Aliens? Really.

Inyssius Tor
2008-05-22, 02:26 AM
Okay, I will grant you the monkeys. The ants were totally fine and only a mild cinematic exaggeration of the real thing. The aliens weren't that much worse than the previous movies' paranormal things, though I admit I would have liked them much less had they actually been from another planet instead of another universe.

...mummies? What mummies? Are you talking about the stuff in the aliens' loot chamber, or the webbing-covered Spaniards, or that one passing reference to the "mummified remains" the government found? And how is the Soviet Union a loose end in history?

Don Beegles
2008-05-22, 10:37 AM
Not quite on topic, but what is with all of the Temple of Doom hate?

I'm watching it right now, and it's not terrible. It is cheesier than the other ones, but not in so bad that I actually don't like it.

Serpentine
2008-05-22, 10:40 AM
I just saw it this afternoon. I think it was easily on par with the others :smallcool: Lots of cool Indy moments, some great lines... The... what have been dubbed "wtf moments" were... out there, didn't quite fit with the rest, but they weren't that far out considering, and they made up for it by looking damn cool.

I thought Shia was fine. And I did so like that milk bar scene :smallbiggrin:

edit: I liked Temple of Doom too. Raiders of the Lost Ark I haven't seen as many times...
The friend Goff and I saw it with... Has never seen any Indiana Jones movies :eek:
...well, 'cept this one.

Muz
2008-05-22, 11:24 AM
I've never really had a problem with Temple of Doom either, though I know someone who pretty much has to be drunk or otherwise coerced into watching it.

The dinner scene is rather pointless and stupid, I suppose, and Willie Scott frankly gets on my nerves a little. (To paraphrase Indy, "Does she ever shut up?") I assume a lot of people also have a problem with Short Round just because he's a kid, though he's never bothered me that much, as kids-in-movies go.

ToD has always seemed somewhat...short, though. Maybe it's the fact that most of the movie is all in one place, unlike Raiders and Last Crusade. Still, it's more entertaining than a lot of stuff out there, just not quite up to par with the other two.

Plus no Sallah. We likes Sallah, we does. :smallsmile:

Deth Muncher
2008-05-22, 01:30 PM
ok, no, the Soviets aren't a loose history thread. But everything else though! It's like, "Oh, the Mayans? Yeah, aliens did it. Egypt too. They're basically responsible for civilization. Remember that scene with the chamber 'o' goodies? Yeah. They're responsible for EVERYTHING. You can't just go and say blooming ALIENS are the answer to everything!

Jibar
2008-05-22, 01:52 PM
HENRYYYYYYYYYY!

...

Senior

They killed my Sean Connery! I loved him so and now he is dead.
:smallfrown:

Apart from that I loved every second of it.
The plot was a little out there, though to be honest, which Indie didn't have an outrageous plot?
Though please, please, I know you're a skeptic. But you recovered the Ark of the Covenant, those magic rocks whose name I can't remember, the friggin Holy Grail, ACKNOWLEDGE THIS.

Also, please say there is a sequel or something. That ending part with the hat and the brief apperance of the Ark. It's dying for something.

JadedDM
2008-05-22, 02:05 PM
Though please, please, I know you're a skeptic. But you recovered the Ark of the Covenant, those magic rocks whose name I can't remember, the friggin Holy Grail, ACKNOWLEDGE THIS.

The magic rocks were called the Sankara Stones.

Deth Muncher
2008-05-22, 03:16 PM
I can't remember, the friggin Holy Grail, ACKNOWLEDGE THIS.

Also, please say there is a sequel or something. That ending part with the hat and the brief apperance of the Ark. It's dying for something.

Nope, sorry. Years back, Harrison Ford said he'd do one more IJ movie, and that's it. Lucas must have been waiting until the DVD sales on the previous IJ movies weren't making as much as he wanted.

Dervag
2008-05-22, 07:26 PM
I'm definitely looking forward to it. I'm also worried of how LaBoeuf will affect the movie. I really hate wisecracking teens in my movies, so I'm hoping there won't be too much of that. If he takes a backseat to Indy and maybe pops in with a bit of heroics here and there that'll be fine with me. I sure hope they're not going to let him take over the movie just because he's a better cash cow than Ford.The way you hoped it would be is exactly how it is. LaBoeuf as "Mutt" is essentially holding Indy's coat during much of the movie, though he comes into his own at a few dramatic moments. So he's competent; he certainly contributes more to Indy's success than, say, Short Round. But he's not written into the movie to the point where he upstages Harrison Ford.

Were you really worried that was going to happen?
______________________



Why? Because of THIS (http://www.celebrific.com/daily-dose-of-zen-shia-labeouf-takes-harrison-ford-for-a-ride/).

Nobody makes Harrison Ford ride bitch. Nobody! :smallfurious:I understand, but they weren't exactly going to change drivers in mid-scene. Besides, if Indy were driving the motorcycle he wouldn't be able to fend off attacking Communists as efficiently.

Besides, two scenes before that Indy rides a rocket sled out of a secret military base and survives a nuclear explosion. In context, the motorcycle scene detracts nothing from his awesomeness.
________________________________


HENRYYYYYYYYYY!
...
Senior
They killed my Sean Connery! I loved him so and now he is dead.
:smallfrown:Well, Connery is retired, so they couldn't feature him in the movie. And the character was born in 1872, which would make him 85 years old (Indy is 57) at the time of the movie. So the most logical thing to do was to establish that Dr. Jones, Sr. was dead. Can't blame them.

He was an awesome character, though.


Though please, please, I know you're a skeptic. But you recovered the Ark of the Covenant, those magic rocks whose name I can't remember, the friggin Holy Grail, ACKNOWLEDGE THIS.Had the same thought.

On the other hand, Indy has probably investigated dozens of legends around the world that were nothing but myths. And twenty years is a long time to rationalize things away in one's mind.

purple gelatinous cube o' Doom
2008-05-22, 08:14 PM
HENRYYYYYYYYYY!

...

Senior

They killed my Sean Connery! I loved him so and now he is dead.
:smallfrown:


Well, they actually wanted Connery to come back and reprise his role for this movie, but he refused, saying that he wouldn't come out of retirement, even for that.

Charles Phipps
2008-05-22, 08:21 PM
Oh, I'd like to recommend Indiana Jones and The Crystal Skull.

(Potential Spoilers---I'll avoid the major plot points)


Indiana Jones holds the position as the 2nd best of the Indiana Jones movies, replacing the Indiana Jones and The Last Crusade as the holder of 2nd best after Raiders of the Lost Ark. I went to see it today and I have nothing but high praise for the movie and some piddling complaints.

The obvious question of "Is Harrison Ford too old to be Indiana Jones?" The answer is, unfortunately, yes. Harrison shows his age in the movie and it does make several of the fight scenes unconvincing even with the help of Shia Labeouf to carry out some of the legwork.

However, the stunts are still elaborately presented and the fact that Harrison Ford is 62 (my mother's age where she can barely walk) and yet is able to sell the Area 51 Fight Sequence plus all the dramatic work, makes the fight sequences that do fail seem to be just small potatoes.

Shia Labeouf manages to convincingly play the role of Indiana's sidekick and actually does what none of the other sidekicks but Sallah was able to do in that I actually want to see more of him in the future (and almost certainly will see him given what we learn about "Mutt" Williams). Mutt William's character actually manages two genuinely entertaining stunt fights in the film up with traditional Indiana Jones fair; a motorcyle ride/chase sequence through Marshall College (which I attend) and a sword fight where he holds his own against the Stalinist Colonel Spalko.

The movie, unfortunately, moves away from Judeo-Christian mysticism like the Temple of Doom and instead does 1950s Science Fiction with the theories about the Crystal Skull/The Pyramids/Aztec connection/Aliens/Roswell. This isn't much of a spoiler since its revealed in the first part of the film but manages to make it convincing enough that I don't feel incredibly cheated.

Cate Blanchett plays the role of Colonel Spalko well enough that we don't really notice the substitution of Russians for Nazis without difficulty. George is smart enough to put lip service to the Red Scare and thus the complex role of US-Soviet relations is not made a simple case of Good-Bad even as the villains are suitably cartoon-evil. She manages to be sexy and yet kid-friendly horrible at the same time.

I'm pleased to say that while the movie can't match Raiders of the Lost Ark (which was totally unexpected and new at the time), the film manages to stay at an entertainment level to the other Indiana Jones pastiches of our time in the Mummy films. It's rather shocking that while Jacen Solo is committing atrocities and Revenge of the Sith is slaughtering younglings while engaging in spouse abuse, George actually hasn't lost the ability to tell a family-friendly kids drama. Likewise, I'd thought Stephen Spielberg had forgotten how to do family movies.

The movie genuinely manages to surprise you in several places with at least a few action sequences actually throwing me for a loop (Indiana Jones vs. the Atomic Bomb will go down in my most remembered sequences for his solution). The violence is cartoonish at times as its clear our heroes are as indestructible as Wily Coyote towards the end, but I don't think that's a bad thing by any stretch of the imagination.

So, Bravo George, you've regained your lost credibility with me.

8/10

Talyn
2008-05-22, 08:37 PM
I agree about the unkillable protagonists, but hey, most of them are high enough level that it doesn't bother me in the slightest! The flying saucer at the end was a little much, and I thought that some of the dialogue was a little wooden... but not too badly! I'm sure as heck going to go see it again.

Besides - Karen Allen is back as Marian Ravenwood! JOY JOY JOY JOY JOY! (I love this woman, even though she, like Harrison has, erm, matured. I will be crushing on her even more ridiculously after this movie.)

8/10!

kentma57
2008-05-22, 08:53 PM
Just watched the movie, it was great. But since the movie is out the thread should probably have "Spoilers" in the title.

Muz
2008-05-22, 09:34 PM
That's why when i started it I mentioned putting things IN spoiler tags. (I thought if you put "spoiler" in the title, that meant the whole thread is a spoiler. I haven't seen it yet, myself, and I want to be able to participate in the anticipatory side of the discussion.) :smallsmile:

Serpentine
2008-05-22, 11:30 PM
ok, no, the Soviets aren't a loose history thread. But everything else though! It's like, "Oh, the Mayans? Yeah, aliens did it. Egypt too. They're basically responsible for civilization. Remember that scene with the chamber 'o' goodies? Yeah. They're responsible for EVERYTHING. You can't just go and say blooming ALIENS are the answer to everything!I hate responding to a spoiler with nothing but a spoiler and no context, but oh well... I got the impression that the chamber thingy (and I was a bit worried about that too) wasn't that they were involved with those places, but that, as Indy put it, "They're archaeologists" - they were studying those cultures, not creating them.

The obvious question of "Is Harrison Ford too old to be Indiana Jones?" The answer is, unfortunately, yes. Harrison shows his age in the movie and it does make several of the fight scenes unconvincing even with the help of Shia Labeouf to carry out some of the legwork.I think they handled the age thing very well. They didn't pretend that Ford/Jones was any younger than he actually is/was, they got across quite well that he isn't as quick, tough or strong as he used to be, and they did all that without many/any "I'm too old for this sort of thing" moments.
I would also suggest that the majority of your post was involved enough to be spoiler-worthy. In case you don't know, you do spoilers like this: "Luke, I am your father.""Luke, I am your father."

Tirian
2008-05-23, 01:11 AM
Well, Connery is retired, so they couldn't feature him in the movie. And the character was born in 1872, which would make him 85 years old (Indy is 57) at the time of the movie. So the most logical thing to do was to establish that Dr. Jones, Sr. was dead. Can't blame them.

A little. Henry drank from the Holy Grail, the implication at the time being that he would have an unnaturally long life. Sure, he isn't immune to getting hit by a bus or assassinated by vengeful Nazis, but he certainly could have been alive in 1957.

(Okay, after reading a few dozen websites, apparently now nobody ever believed that the Grail would extend ones life now that it turns out that they don't need the loophole. However, from what I read Henry only died two years ago, so again it wouldn't be at all unnatural to say that he's alive but just not here.)

Moreover, he didn't have to be dead just to not be in the movie, ya know? The only reason to not make him off on some way-remote dig living large at 85 is that they wanted to bring him down to the depths of having no family and no friends and no job in the packing scene. I thought that was a bit ham-handed, particularly since one of the major themes of the movie was that being 58 years old doesn't have to sideline Indy.

Turcano
2008-05-23, 02:13 AM
Not quite on topic, but what is with all of the Temple of Doom hate?

I'm watching it right now, and it's not terrible. It is cheesier than the other ones, but not in so bad that I actually don't like it.

As someone who has a full hate-on for Temple of Doom, I would say that ToD reaches the level of self-parody. Indy loses his skepticism* and a good deal of his intelligence, the Thugs are unintentionally hilarious and are apparently based in a high-school haunted house, and his sidekick and love interest both needed to die in a fire (which almost happened... so close, and yet so far). And the writing was terrible. "Prepare to meet Kali... in Hell!" What the hell does that mean?

It was a gas to give the MST3K treatment, though. I'll give it that.

*This makes a lot less sense due to the film's status as a prequel. "Hindu mysticism has been vindicated in my eyes, but Jewish mysticism? That's a crock."

poleboy
2008-05-23, 02:36 AM
I'm seeing it tomorrow. Giddy! :smallbiggrin: I haven't felt like this since the last Star Wars movie came out.

Serpentine
2008-05-23, 02:47 AM
Meh, I liked it, and I liked Short Round fine. I would suggest that the response of my friend could be a good guide, as this was the first and only Indy movies she's seen. This response being: "It was awesome!"

Turcano
2008-05-23, 05:20 AM
Meh, I liked it, and I liked Short Round fine. I would suggest that the response of my friend could be a good guide, as this was the first and only Indy movies she's seen. This response being: "It was awesome!"

Hey, I ain't telling anyone not to like it, just that I don't (with the exception of the aforementioned MSTing). However, I will submit that Short Round was Gen X's Jar Jar Binks. (Seriously. If you told me that Short Round was created by George Lucas, I wouldn't bat an eye.)

Destro_Yersul
2008-05-23, 05:33 AM
Just saw it. It lived up to the legacy, in my opinion. The legacy being 1 and 3, didn't like ToD all that much. I'm so getting that image of Indy silhouetted against a mushroom cloud as my desktop.

Project_Mayhem
2008-05-23, 05:51 AM
Watched it yesterday instead of my lecture.

I actually really liked it. It pushed believability, especially that bit with the fridge, but it still kicked arse.

Phae Nymna
2008-05-23, 07:44 AM
I ranted my guts out last night. There are some witty lines and cool scenes, but this film has lost its sense of ancient mystery and wondrous belief for me.
Who am I kidding? I hated this movie. It's a desecration to the Trilogy. THey could have done good things, but they didn't.

Saithis Bladewing
2008-05-23, 08:31 AM
I didn't think it was so bad, however, I did have a beef with it...

I didn't like one bit the fact that Indy et al never really felt in danger. There were no moments where Indy barely escapes by the skin of his teeth, the kinds of moments that were so epic and dramatic in the original (see: Indy pulling his hat out from under the closing door just before it slams shut). The closest it came in my mind to a dangerous Indy-esque situation was with the ants, and the skull kind of ruined the danger of that situation in my mind. I mean, there were plenty of times where he survived dangerous situations in the movie (a decent-sized company of soviets shooting at him, going over waterfalls, etc.) but I never FELT like Indy was in danger. Also, I think they could have used perhaps used one or two moments where his age got the better of him, not just the one - the only time we really saw it was when he missed jumping onto the back of the truck. Even just a subtle line like failing to do some athletic stunt and then muttering something to the effect of 'I'd swear I used to be able to do that...' I sort of imagined old Indy as the kind of character who doesn't realise he's gotten old, but is still impaired by it - instead it just felt like he didn't realise he had gotten old and wasn't impaired by it much at all.

That said, I found it highly enjoyable. I think I can agree with the assessment of 2nd best.

Muz
2008-05-23, 11:07 AM
I actually really liked it. It pushed believability, especially that bit with the fridge, but it still kicked arse.

I still haven't seen it yet (so non-spoilered answer, if possible), but is the bit with the fridge more or less believable than:

-Indy hanging onto a periscope for 300 miles or so
-Indy & co. dropping out of a plane on a raft, hitting a mountain, sliding down into a river through a forest, and surviving
-Indy Phoenix teleporting from a magic box to the outside of a train

Edit: I just realized my question probably sounds a bit snarky; it's not intended snark, I'm just genuinely curious how it fits in with some of the other stuff in the series. (No offense meant.) :smallsmile:

factotum
2008-05-23, 12:57 PM
-Indy hanging onto a periscope for 300 miles or so


I don't know why everybody always brings that one up, because to my mind it's plain wrong. This is pre-Second World War--submarines of that era had a maximum submerged speed of about 4 knots and couldn't even hold that for more than a few hours! Not to mention that the air inside would become almost unbreathably bad in about 24 hours. Therefore submarines spent almost all of their time on the surface, generally only submerging in order to attack. It's therefore entirely probable that Indy just sat on the deck for the whole trip to the island.

Now, if people were complaining that the U-Boat is unquestionably of a type that didn't enter service until several years after the film is set, I'd understand it... :smallwink:

As for the relative rating of the films, I'm going to buck the trend and say that I thought Last Crusade was the worst of the original trilogy, if only because of the outright character assassination that the writers inflicted on Marcus Brody and Sallah. This fourth one? Not as good as the first, obviously, but definitely worth a couple of hours of anyone's time.

Muz
2008-05-23, 02:28 PM
If that's the case, wouldn't you think someone would have gone up above for some fresh air and spotted him? :smallsmile:

Saithis Bladewing
2008-05-23, 03:00 PM
I still haven't seen it yet (so non-spoilered answer, if possible), but is the bit with the fridge more or less believable than:

-Indy hanging onto a periscope for 300 miles or so
-Indy & co. dropping out of a plane on a raft, hitting a mountain, sliding down into a river through a forest, and surviving
-Indy Phoenix teleporting from a magic box to the outside of a train

Edit: I just realized my question probably sounds a bit snarky; it's not intended snark, I'm just genuinely curious how it fits in with some of the other stuff in the series. (No offense meant.) :smallsmile:

I'd say less believable than the first one, on the same level as the second one. The third one isn't really comparable, too different...

Tirian
2008-05-23, 03:15 PM
As for the relative rating of the films, I'm going to buck the trend and say that I thought Last Crusade was the worst of the original trilogy, if only because of the outright character assassination that the writers inflicted on Marcus Brody and Sallah. This fourth one? Not as good as the first, obviously, but definitely worth a couple of hours of anyone's time.

True, what happened to Brody in Last Crusade shouldn't have happened. Honestly, inept "comic relief" sidekicks are a crutch that writers should learn to live without because they weigh down far more movies than they help (in the sense that a large number is far more than zero). But Sallah got off okay in my opinion; I even liked the "substory" of Indy demanding that Sallah not collect camels from the Nazis and Sallah refusing to obey. So I'll stay with the crowd and say that LC was the second-best movie of the lot: failing only for Brody and the fact that several shots screamed "MY CGI IZ PASTEDE ON YAY" and the general flaw that, through no fault of its own, it wasn't Raiders of The Lost Ark, the greatest action movie of all time.

Indiana Jones and the Legend of the Quest of the Temple of the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull was nearly as good as Last Crusade. It had more eye-rolling stunts (there is a line between OMG and "Oh, come on!" and it was regularly crossed); it's a pity about the refrigerator because it was a really good idea but then they turned the WOW dial up to 14 and it became cheap slapstick. And in the same way that Garfield cartoons are funnier without Garfield, I'd love to see a cut of this movie where Ray Winstone is erased, because I think that he did nothing but follow a tired old formulaic character. I don't think that Irina Spalko worked for me; normally they have the morally conflicted enemy scientist who wants Indy to retrieve the artifact and the enemy army leader who wants Indy dead even if it's only a third of the way into the movie, and having one character pull double duty is hard to justify.

All of those complaints, of course, are not why the movie is bad. There is no shame at all at being nearly tied for second out of a field of four when you are talking about Indiana Jones movies. Crystal Skull is a great trip.

Mauve Shirt
2008-05-23, 11:45 PM
I just saw it. ^_^ Nowhere near as good as the first three, well, 1 and 3 anyway, I never liked Temple of Doom. But a fun film!

Though I reeeeeeally wish they'd skipped the flying saucer ending.
The marriage at the end seemed to be a little bit "Well the audience liked the first girl best, let's bring her back and have them get married!" But I liked it when he dropped his hat and The Beef tried to put it on and Indy was like "No way, that's my hat, and will always be my hat! Screw this "younger generation" ****!"

factotum
2008-05-24, 12:22 AM
I don't think that Irina Spalko worked for me; normally they have the morally conflicted enemy scientist who wants Indy to retrieve the artifact and the enemy army leader who wants Indy dead even if it's only a third of the way into the movie, and having one character pull double duty is hard to justify.


Well, they kind of still DID have that dichotomy--she was mostly OK in getting Indy to help them out, it was the Colonel who was pretty much out to kill him all the way through.

I'd have to agree about Mac, though. His only purpose in the film appeared to be to leave a trail for the bad guys to follow...

Dervag
2008-05-24, 12:49 AM
A little. Henry drank from the Holy Grail, the implication at the time being that he would have an unnaturally long life. Sure, he isn't immune to getting hit by a bus or assassinated by vengeful Nazis, but he certainly could have been alive in 1957.They could have kept him alive, with or without the Grail. There are and have been plenty of 85 year old men. Reasonably prosperous men with no obvious personal vices who kept in good shape in their youth (like Henry Jones, Sr.) have a small but credible chance of making it that far.

On the other hand, if they couldn't put Connery in the movie, and they couldn't, there wasn't much point in having Henry Sr. be alive from a plot standpoint. Yes, it would be cool, but it would also be hard to explain his complete absence from the plot without saying he was dead. The first two movies didn't introduce him at all, so that worked- plus Indy was involved in foreign adventures anyway. But now that he's in the canon, it's hard to take him out for another story.

If Connery were still acting, they might very well have decided to keep Henry Sr. alive for a brief appearance. However, the plot of the movie did not have a place for him, and at 85 it is not really believable that he could participate effectively as an active character. But without Connery, and without a logical place to fit Henry Sr. into the movie, the most reasonable thing to do from a plot standpoint was to say that he died of old age some time in the 1940s or 1950s.


Moreover, he didn't have to be dead just to not be in the movie, ya know? The only reason to not make him off on some way-remote dig living large at 85 is that they wanted to bring him down to the depths of having no family and no friends and no job in the packing scene. I thought that was a bit ham-handed, particularly since one of the major themes of the movie was that being 58 years old doesn't have to sideline Indy.It may have been a bit overdone, but not much. I think it was an entirely reasonable plot decision. People die of old age. It happens. You can stay fit, you can stay active, but at some point something like congestive heart failure or cancer kicks in and carries you off. And that was a even more likely to happen fifty years ago than it is today.

If they said that Henry, Sr. is canonically alive in the movie, they would have almost had to bring him in somehow. I mean, can we seriously believe he wouldn't attend the wedding?


I didn't think it was so bad, however, I did have a beef with it...

I didn't like one bit the fact that Indy et al never really felt in danger. There were no moments where Indy barely escapes by the skin of his teeth, the kinds of moments that were so epic and dramatic in the original (see: Indy pulling his hat out from under the closing door just before it slams shut).You are KIDDING me.

The bit where he survives one of the Plumbbob shoots? How is that not danger? If he had come any closer to dying, he would have been dead.


I sort of imagined old Indy as the kind of character who doesn't realise he's gotten old, but is still impaired by it - instead it just felt like he didn't realise he had gotten old and wasn't impaired by it much at all.Indy's too smart to lie to himself about his physical abilities, I think. He knows his limits. You'll notice he doesn't do quite as much of the heroic whip-swinging stuff. Some, yes, but not quite as much. At least, that was my impression.

JadedDM
2008-05-24, 01:26 AM
A little. Henry drank from the Holy Grail, the implication at the time being that he would have an unnaturally long life. Sure, he isn't immune to getting hit by a bus or assassinated by vengeful Nazis, but he certainly could have been alive in 1957.

The Holy Grail didn't extend life, it made you immortal. However, anyone who crossed the crest in the temple would lose that immortality. That's what the knight explained--you could live forever, but you could never leave. Not a great blessing, really.

Fri
2008-05-24, 09:27 AM
The Holy Grail didn't extend life, it made you immortal. However, anyone who crossed the crest in the temple would lose that immortality. That's what the knight explained--you could live forever, but you could never leave. Not a great blessing, really.

Not really. Cheers for Internet and Delivery Service!

And holy ****, I'm an orc! Graah!

Glawackus
2008-05-24, 09:30 AM
I greatly enjoyed it.

Thoughts:

I actually didn't mind Shia not-even-going-to-try-that-last-name's character all that much. There were some eye-rolly moments, but not bad. The "family argument" in the truck was hilarious. A few people around me were cheering when the Russian guy finally started putting on the gags.

The Ark showing up in Area 51? I have never used this term before, but I think the word here is "squee".

As far as the whole ALIEN ASTRONAUTS thing, I thought it was handled pretty well. Don't forget the movie's in the '50s now--where the first three were supposed to be recreations of the whole old-style action movie, I think that this one was supposed to mix in some of that sci-fi creature feature type stuff, too.

I was kind of disappointed, though, when the spaceship didn't turn out to be the huge black one from Close Encounters of the Third Kind. :smalltongue:

Tirian
2008-05-24, 12:12 PM
The Holy Grail didn't extend life, it made you immortal. However, anyone who crossed the crest in the temple would lose that immortality. That's what the knight explained--you could live forever, but you could never leave. Not a great blessing, really.

I know what the movie says, but the studio's FAQ at the time answered "So, are they immortal now or what?" by saying no but they were rejuvenated and their life expectancy was extended even though they didn't stay around. Without doubt, it's the explanation they would have dusted off had Sean Connery decided to participate in the adventure this time around.

Upon reflection, I think it would have been infinitely better had Henry decided that his destiny was to safeguard the Grail for the next umpteen hundred years and so he returned alone to the Canyon of the Crescent Moon. He's not dead, he's continuing the work of his lifetime, he's not wussing out on that poor knight they left back there, and yet he's not available to appear in even the last scenes of future movies.

Vaynor
2008-05-24, 12:12 PM
It was good, but I was disappointed when Sammy didn't show up at the end in Nick Fury guise. That would have made the movie so much better...


Also, aliens? A little too sci-fi for my tastes (when it comes to Indiana Jones, I mean).

Mc. Lovin'
2008-05-24, 02:52 PM
I loved that film!

Sure, they went over the top sometimes
Swining through trees, driving onto a tree, the FRIDGE bit etc
but the rest of it was so amazing that I completely forgive it. And the graphics at the end left me in awe.

One thing you need to do before going to watch it is try to forget most basic rules of how science works though :smalltongue:

Tragic_Comedian
2008-05-24, 06:20 PM
I really liked the movie, it really captured the feel of the old one's well. I could have done without the aliens, but it really wasn't that big of a deal. It's a real shame that Sean Connery didn't have at least a cameo... The only major complaint I have isn't even about the movie, it's about the guy behind me who READ EVERY WORD THAT APPEARED ON THE SCREEN ALOUD! I wanted to turn around and tell him, "Thank you, sir, but I believe everyone in this theater can read." :smallbiggrin:

Don Julio Anejo
2008-05-24, 07:56 PM
Spoiler:

The crystal skull looked like it was made from cheap plastic stuffed with crumpled saran wrap (the stuff you use to wrap up sandwiches).
/Spoiler.

Real spoiler:
Props to the Russian guy with the gag, he will always be the real hero in my heart.

Other stuff - typical Indiana Jones action movie. Nothing special about the plot or action... Weird stunts like the refrigerator - come on, even terminator would die from a fall like that, either from whiplash or his/her neck breaking. Not even a scratch on Indy..

And I can see Shia take over as the next Indiana Jones, not because it would make a good movie but because it'll make sense from a marketing standpoint...

Flabbicus
2008-05-24, 09:32 PM
I really didn't like this movie. Shia was hamming it up and there were a few scenes where the acting was near-painful.

And there's no way he survived

an atomic explosion by climbing into a lead-lined refrigerator when he was at ground zero. Come on, he would be ground into paste. I guess this way they can have Indian Jones and the Battle with Lymphoma.

And what's not to love about Shorty? (http://youtube.com/watch?v=5iRge0CwNCw)

Fri
2008-05-25, 01:25 AM
In the same way he can't possibly survive falling 20 thousand feet with a raft.

Come on, this is Indiana Jones.

I like this movie, though somehow it wasn't seatgripping enough for me. But now I'm just sad, because there won't be any more Indiana Jones Movie. Except for some crappy "Son of Indiana Jones" or whatnot. Might be good, but it's still won't be Indiana Jones.

Amotis
2008-05-25, 01:38 AM
Oh God, the last hat scene. It...left me speechless. It was like Spielberg breaking down the fourth wall and laughing at the people following the Indy Hat Metaphor/Son of Indy. Basically, "Bitch! I'm Harrison Ford. I am Indiana Jones. No one else will ever be me." Totally worth the ticket. That and the new Dark Knight trailer and Hellboy II. Oh God yes.

Jibar
2008-05-25, 01:51 AM
Those are the trailers you got? Dammit. Lucky.
I got one for Kung Fu Panda, and then two, count them, two trailers for movies staring Shia LeBoof.
Boy needs to have a break.

Vikingkingq
2008-05-25, 02:10 AM
I liked it overall. Not as good as Raiders, not quite as good as Crusaders (didn't feel the father-son thing worked as well to give it emotional heft), but a lot better than Temple.

I wasn't a huge fan of the alien thing, but I thought they limited the damage it did by keeping it until the end. Still not sure why the alien decided to fry Irena.

As far as the action sequences went, I really liked the warehouse sequence...although the nuclear blast thing was loopy, although the visual of Indiana Jones personally confronting the nuclear age was pretty cool. (Sidenote: the Janitor! as a CIA agent! Hilarious!) Thought they could have done a better job working Jones into the post-war world: I wouldn't have picked him a strong anti-communist (considering that he participated in the Bolshevik Revolution in 1918, fought the fascists in Spain over some Crusader relics, worked with the Russians in '41 to recover Genghis Khan's sword, etc.) or an "I Like Ike" man. The University of Chicago chase scene was very amusing, especially the bit about "getting out of the library."

Some bits did strain credulity: the bit where the one jeep actually runs completely over the other one without squashing anyone inside, the three waterfalls lacked a certain tension, etc.

I thought the different ruins worked really really well, especially all the traps and secret doors and mechanisms, and whatnot. One plot hole that bugged me: why didn't anyone ever mention the strange natives attacking them at the graveyard and at the hidden city? Everyone just sort of went with it without saying anything.

I thought Cate Blanchett really nailed her character, a very credible villain. My one bug was that all the other Russians were personality-less mooks. Personally, I would have liked a by-the-book, athiest/secular Commissar who's half-convinced that all of this is nonseness and that Irena's in need of re-education to balance out the Russians and give them some conflict

Similar to Raiders of the Lost Ark, where I thought the combination of Toht (the SS guy with the medallion burn on his hand), Belloq (possibly the best and most meaningful Indy villain), and Col. Dietrich (the fussy German officer with the fear of "Jewish ritual") really worked: Toht gave you some sneaky sadism, Belloq got really psychological and could come close to Jones in the archeology department, and Dietrich gave the villains some conflict of interest. Heck, even the Mooks could be colorful - everyone remembers the Big German Mechanic who pummels the hell out of Indy.

kpenguin
2008-05-25, 02:51 AM
Saw it, I thought it was pretty good. Not as good as Raiders or Last Crusade, but better than Temple of Doom.

Things that were awesome:


The villain. A lot personality in that one.
Mutt was considerably less annoying than I thought he would be. The moments on the motercycle, the swordfight with Spalko, and the fact that half the time he's in awe of Indy and the other half he thinks he's just some old coot is cool.
The aliens. It was a departure from the mysticism of old, but not so much that it didn't feel like Indy and it pretty well handled.
The return of Marian Ravenwood: the best love interest in the Indy movies.
Harrison Ford competently playing an aged Indy. Can anyone say Retired Badass (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RetiredBadass)?
The fire ants. Anyone can do a wave of acid/lava/generic-dangerous-liquid. The ants provided the same thing, only with more flavor.
The moment at the end where it looks like Mutt is going to put on the hat and Indy grabs it from his hand. No one replaces Harrison Ford as the Indiana Jones.



Things that weren't as good:


The British guy (the greedy but sane one). The movie could have gone without him in it and he didn't really add to the humor. (Other than the whole "I'm gonna break your nose" thing)
Indy surviving the nuke. No, just... no.
SUPER MONKEY STRIKE FORCE GO GO GO!
Not enough whipping. I'm not sure he even uses the whip again after he busts it out when escaping the Russians in Area 51.
Speaking of Area 51... the place is supposed to contain more paranormal artifacts than you can shake a whip at. It annoyed me that it was poorly guarded and that the Russians didn't decide to take some stuff other than the alien. Though, it would have been funny to have a random group of Russians open the Ark. A pity Indy didn't try luring them to that box.

Muz
2008-05-25, 03:00 AM
Speaking of Area 51... the place is supposed to contain more paranormal artifacts than you can shake a whip at. It annoyed me that it was poorly guarded and that the Russians didn't decide to take some stuff other than the alien. Though, it would have been funny to have a random group of Russians open the Ark. A pity Indy didn't try luring them to that box.


I decided that given the sheer size of the place, it'd be crazy to think that EVERY crate contained something of mystic power or strange technology. Given the lack of, well, ANYthing that went flying when the truck crashed THROUGH a bunch of crates at the end of that sequence, I realized that the majority of the boxes were decoys to make it harder for intruders to find anything of value quickly. (At least that's what I figured, and what I choose to believe.) So rooting around for more useful stuff would've been time-consuming and risking being caught. :smallsmile:

factotum
2008-05-25, 04:49 AM
He wouldn't have been able to anyway:


He says he's never been there before, so he wouldn't know where the Ark is, or even that it's in there; he had to use the strange "magnetic" attraction of the alien to find it.

Dervag
2008-05-25, 05:32 AM
Upon reflection, I think it would have been infinitely better had Henry decided that his destiny was to safeguard the Grail for the next umpteen hundred years and so he returned alone to the Canyon of the Crescent Moon. He's not dead, he's continuing the work of his lifetime, he's not wussing out on that poor knight they left back there, and yet he's not available to appear in even the last scenes of future movies.Wow, that would totally have made sense. That is a good one. I like it.

On the other hand, it would also have taken quite some time to explain in the fourth movie. It would really have been better with its own scene- requiring Connery to put in an appearance.

I suspect that Lucas and Spielberg never even thought of that angle...


It was good, but I was disappointed when Sammy didn't show up at the end in Nick Fury guise. That would have made the movie so much better...It's not Marvel continuity so they don't have license to use Marvel characters. But yes, that would have been quite cool. Of course, in the 1950s it would have strained belief that SHIELD be led by a "negro." The 'original' Nick Fury was in fact a (white) WWII vet.


And there's no way he survived...He was actually quite some distance away from the blast, not "ground zero." Look at the shot that shows the bomb in perspective to the dummy suburb where Indy is. The thing that really strains credulity is that he got thrown so far, not that he survived the blast. What should have happened is that soldiers marching into the suburb to look at the aftermath find him stuck in a refrigerator buried under the wreckage of a house. Yes, soldiers did march into the dummy suburbs in tests like this.


I wasn't a huge fan of the alien thing, but I thought they limited the damage it did by keeping it until the end. Still not sure why the alien decided to fry Irena.It's a very common theme in literature and mythology. You don't want to know everything. You really don't. And if you do, it will very likely kill you. Personally, I think the alien looked at Irena, saw exactly what she was, decided she didn't deserve any special mercy, and then gave her exactly what she asked for.


(Sidenote: the Janitor! as a CIA agent! Hilarious!) Thought they could have done a better job working Jones into the post-war world: I wouldn't have picked him a strong anti-communist (considering that he participated in the Bolshevik Revolution in 1918, fought the fascists in Spain over some Crusader relics, worked with the Russians in '41 to recover Genghis Khan's sword, etc.) or an "I Like Ike" man.Well, he may have just said "I Like Ike" as defiant last words. As for the anti-communism, I suspect that like a lot of Westerners, he didn't have much against socialism or communism before World War Two, but then found himself disgusted by the way the Soviets acted in Eastern Europe after the war. He doesn't seem to be an ideological anti-communist any more than he was an ideological anti-fascist. He just, y'know, hates Nazis. And KGB agents.


I thought Cate Blanchett really nailed her character, a very credible villain. My one bug was that all the other Russians were personality-less mooks. Personally, I would have liked a by-the-book, athiest/secular Commissar who's half-convinced that all of this is nonseness and that Irena's in need of re-education to balance out the Russians and give them some conflictThat would have been clever.


Heck, even the Mooks could be colorful - everyone remembers the Big German Mechanic who pummels the hell out of Indy.Here we have "the officer," I think. He's quite a bit like the Big German Mechanic.

It's a pity the guy who played the Big German Mechanic passed away a few years back. It would have been awesome to see him again- he was in all three of the original pictures. And I bet he would totally have gone for an appearance in this one as the Big Russian... ?

kpenguin
2008-05-25, 01:52 PM
I decided that given the sheer size of the place, it'd be crazy to think that EVERY crate contained something of mystic power or strange technology. Given the lack of, well, ANYthing that went flying when the truck crashed THROUGH a bunch of crates at the end of that sequence, I realized that the majority of the boxes were decoys to make it harder for intruders to find anything of value quickly. (At least that's what I figured, and what I choose to believe.) So rooting around for more useful stuff would've been time-consuming and risking being caught. :smallsmile:


Still doesn't explain how poorly guarded the place was.

Silent Hunter
2008-05-25, 02:09 PM
Still doesn't explain how poorly guarded the place was.

You don't want to draw attention to the place.

Pretty good movie. Just don't analyse it too closely. There was literal Fridge Logic

TigerHunter
2008-05-25, 08:02 PM
Thought they could have done a better job working Jones into the post-war world: I wouldn't have picked him a strong anti-communist (considering that he participated in the Bolshevik Revolution in 1918, fought the fascists in Spain over some Crusader relics, worked with the Russians in '41 to recover Genghis Khan's sword, etc.) or an "I Like Ike" man.
I'm pretty sure any pro-communist thoughts took a backseat in his mind when they knocked him out and stuffed him in the trunk of a car.

BRC
2008-05-25, 11:50 PM
Just saw it, my thoughts



The Scene: George Lucas and his writing staff sitting in a room, they have laptops, coffee and a basic plot outline written up on a large piece of paper tacked to the wall.

Writer 1: Alright, so george, iv'e been looking over these ideas you have and some of them are-
George Lucas: Listen Phil, we are already succsessful filmakers. Also, you wern't here, but a couple years ago we ended a movie by using the power of god to melt nazi faces. I say "Screw Making sense", let's do what's fun.
Phil:...
Writer 2 (Tom): So.... this jungle chase scene, I'm thinking it needs monkeys.
GL: I like it, write that down.



And thus the film was written.

Was it a contribution to cinema history: Hell Naw!

Was it over the top and ridiculous: You Bet!

Was it Fun: As a Barrel of Monkeys!

poleboy
2008-05-26, 01:28 AM
Well, I finally got around to seeing it. I was pretty excited about everything except the ending, but then I realized it ties in pretty well with the whole 50's feel of the movie. And the very last shot? With the hat? Awesome. And I can't believe Shia LaB.. that guy... didn't suck. I think he played his role perfectly and did exactly what he was supposed to: Make Indy look cool and kinda old at the same time.
Russian guy caught in family feud? Priceless.

North
2008-05-26, 01:33 AM
I liked it. The CGIcritters bugged me a bit though. Did we really need CGI prairie dogs? :smallconfused:

Rappy
2008-05-26, 03:17 AM
I saw the movie, and while I liked it overall, there was the smattering of good, bad, and ugly.

The good:
-The "I like Ike" last words. Very fitting, and Harrison Ford can still pull off being a smart-aleck quite well after all these years.

-The dart-blow. Amazing no one ever thinks to just ram the blowgun dart down the guy's throat when he is too preoccupied looking all evil. On par with the "never bring a scimitar to a gunfight" moment.

-Turning the real world legends of the crystal skulls being from "sky gods" into a valid ancient astronaut plot.

-Psionic brain-fry on the Communatrix. That's why you take Battle Mind, suckers.

-Fire ant swarm. After being bit up a lot as a kid, I have a never-ending phobia of these nasty little monsters, so it got a proper cringe from me.

-The ending scene. The "It's my hat, and I'll bullwhip your hide if you touch it again" moment was a good touch compared to all the Son of Indy quips.

-The Area 51 Ark and "I rode with Poncho Villa". References to the older films and Young Indy are a good thing in my opinion.

The bad:
-The fridge scene. Ugh, the fridge scene...I cannot state on how many levels I hated watching that lead-liner fly through the air unharmed.

-Shia LeTarzan. The brown capuchin swinging scene made me want to crawl out of my theater seat.

-The Thirteenth Body. Okay, so the skeletons are one surviving pseudo-Gray that was torn asunder....wait, what?

The ugly:
-Prairie dogs, prairie dogs, prairie dogs! :smallyuk: Is it really that hard to go dig up a few trained doggies somewhere in Hollywood?

All in all, I'll give it a solid "good" in its existence as part of Indiana Jones canon.

Hawriel
2008-05-26, 05:11 AM
Well I saw an afternoon showing opening day. Honestly it was a little better then meh. I didnt hate it nor did I love it. I just when about my day and didnt really think of it. Exept for afew points.


Indiana never repeat never fired a gun. All character deaths where due to sercomstance rather than a direct intended result by actions of the protagonists. oh wait there was the blowgun gag.

Marian did not hit Indy. Im sorry but thats somthing that was totaly expected. Im willing to bet my next pay check that Im not the only one who thought thats what should have happened when thoughs two characters met again.

To much CGI. maybe this was to much for me to hope for. I guess I was expecting a little more old school film work with CGI for a small polish. I hate CGI. Its been used so much over the past ten years that I truely hate it.

sci fi vs faith. Indiana Jones was always about mystisism, faith and spirituality. For this it was more like an alfter thought. As some one said in another thread about this movie. The Indiana movies have alwasy centered around a religion. Jewdesim, Hinduism (kinda sorta) and Christianity. It would have been nice for them to do a story invalving Islam. Centering the story around an aberisional american culter is just as good. I just didnt feal the mystisism about the Mayan, Incan, aztech (?) culture that it was based on. Hell I cant even remember witch they where trying to use.

Did John Williams do the music for this movie? I couldnt tell. Other than the Indiana Jones score I didnt really notice the music all that much.

Well ok I guess I'll stop befor I really start picking appart a movie that I said I didnt hate. I do like the cast. I thought every one was perfect for the roles they had. I was very sceptical of Shia because I was never Impressed with his work. Tranzformers made me want to slap him and take his riddlen away. I do think he did a very good job for Indian Jones. I was hoping that Josh Hartnet would play that charcter but, hes to old now and Shia won me over.

Ok some one was crabbing about not acknowledging the other movies. First yest they did. When talking to Mutt about the skulls he compared them to the ark and the shankara stones. The ark was shown right befor the characters left the warhouse. It was very obviose seeing as it took up 20% of the screen and was all shiny and gold. Honestly where you expecting a monolog recaping the other movies? In Crusade they gave the nod to Raiders with a dry one liner and to Temple in the same seen with a chalk drawing of a shankara stone on the tunnel wall. The ark was also just a chalk drawing wich promped the dry one liner. Hot blond: what is that? Indy: the ark of the covonent. Hot blond: how do you know? Indy: I know. If you want to look for it. Its the seen whare Indy and the chick are walking in the tunnel ware they find the knights toom under the library.

Silent Hunter
2008-05-26, 05:33 AM
I'm pretty sure any pro-communist thoughts took a backseat in his mind when they knocked him out and stuffed him in the trunk of a car.

A lot of communists would have also been considerably put off the Soviet Union following the "Secret Speech" of 1956.

The Spanish Civil War even got people who were strongly against Communism involved fighting the Fascists- George Orwell for example.

poleboy
2008-05-26, 05:46 AM
What's up with all the fridge hating?
I personally found it hilarious that a fridge would survive a nuclear blast simply because it's Lead Lined (patent pending). I think it goes great with the retro-50's feel of most of the movie.
Besides, isn't walking away from certain death with a slightly dusty leather jacket and a few dents in his hat basically what Indy does? The fridge scene took that to the extreme, that's all.

Turcano
2008-05-26, 06:04 AM
Oh, my local film critic tends to give somewhat playful captions to promo pictures. Here's his for this movie:


http://www.indianajones.com/site/media/photos/large/991130-photo-53.jpg

"Old age. Why did it have to be old age?"

Tom_Violence
2008-05-26, 06:25 AM
I saw it yesterday, and I have to say that I came out of the cinema thinking it was okay. Not great, but passable.

Then on the way home I got to thinking about it and chatting with friends about it, and realised that no, it wasn't okay. It was crap. It had some good bits, but overall it was just bad. I think that Fridge Logic (no pun intended) is the term used to describe the phenomenon.

My greatest fears were realised - Shia LeBeouf (surely a contende r for stupidest name ever, by the way) was dreadful, just dreadful. Acting of that quality would get a frigging school play booed at. And don't even get me started on the monkeys bit. Oddly enough though, he wasn't the worst thing about it. The worst thing, I wouldn't have guessed at in a millions years, just cos it seems like the sort of thing that any sensible person would veto as a suggestion immediately. They put frigging aliens in the film!! Why god, why?! And can anyone explain to me what the hell that ending was about? It made no sense at all. Rock fall, everyone dies?

Back to the subject of actors, Ford was the only decent one there, which is frankly shocking given that it had two major award-winning actors in it! Blanchett did perhaps the most hammed-up phony Russian accent I may have ever heard. "Da, I am Russian. Vat? Vy don't you believe me?" I half expected her to throw on a black cape and start muttering about "ze children of ze night". And John Hurt? A legend! Reduced to playing a bloke who just mumbles and rants and quotes Milton (go on, get a cheesy choice of poet next time why don't you!). Dear, oh dear.

Ray Winstone was hilarious in terms of being a rubbish character too. "Doop de doop, I is a cockerney ain't I? Apples and pears, lovely jubbly." I was amused by his double-crossing though, if only cos it was obvious enough to be seen from space, and hilariously badly done. "I've gone and double-crossed you, lordy! Guess I'm just a bastard!"

I'm sure there's plenty more wrong with this film, but I can't remember it right now. I can forgive most of it, but the plot and script really just let the whole thing down. And can anyone tell me why exactly Spielberg felt that most of the film needed to be shot in soft focus? Was it just a cheap way of reminding us that we're watching a film set in the 50s, or was it necessarily to occasionally mask the fact that Ford is about a billion years old?

Oh, and "Part-time!" may rank as the worst line in a film ever. Poor Indy.


Those are the trailers you got? Dammit. Lucky.
I got one for Kung Fu Panda, and then two, count them, two trailers for movies staring Shia LeBoof.
Boy needs to have a break.

Yeah, Enemy Of The State 2 or whatever its called really looks like a turd too far.

Talya
2008-05-26, 07:11 AM
Good Indy flick.



Far better than the crap called Temple of Doom.

Plot-wise, it was better than Last Crusade, but KotCS suffered from not having Sallah, Henry Jones Sr., or Marcus Brody (not that they could have done anything about the last of those), so I'd still rank Last Crusade as a little more fun.

Of course, none of them were as good as Raiders.

George, George, George....why did you stop getting Lawrence Kasdan to stop rewriting your storylines and making your scripts? It worked so well for Raiders of the Lost Ark, Empire Strikes Back, and Return of the Jedi...

Tirian
2008-05-26, 01:17 PM
Besides, isn't walking away from certain death with a slightly dusty leather jacket and a few dents in his hat basically what Indy does? The fridge scene took that to the extreme, that's all.

Obviously nobody wants Indy to die there, but it's exciting because we like to imagine that Indy lives in a world with the same physics as our world. You have a house containing a 200 pound refrigerator with a 200 pound man inside it. That's just not going to be launched far out of town, whether he could survive the impact or not. Maybe they didn't want to spend the extra $50,000 to build a "ruined town" set for Indy to emerge into, but that would have saved them from an indelibly foolish resolution.

JadedDM
2008-05-26, 04:31 PM
About the fridge...

A led-lined fridge might protect him from the radiation, but COME ON. If you're caught up n a nuclear explosion, it's not the radiation that's going to kill you. Wouldn't the intense heat have turned him to ash? Wouldn't the primal, explosive forces disintegrated the fridge and everything in it? And even failing all of that, wouldn't he have at least broken some bones after being hurled so far and bounced around inside?

Neon Knight
2008-05-26, 05:16 PM
I didn't like it all that much.

Aliens. Ugh. Aliens. Buh-arf.

Okay, okay, okay. I'm letting that little detail affect my perception of the film way too much. But it really, really bugged me. Everything else was pretty decent; I'd put it behind the 1st and 3rd.

And I am seriously considering put it behind the 2nd. Maybe not in objective quality, but in personal opinion.

The ancient astronauts trope is one I have always disliked, and come pretty close to despising. In fact, grey-type aliens in general get under my skin.

Muz
2008-05-26, 06:05 PM
What's up with all the fridge hating?
I personally found it hilarious that a fridge would survive a nuclear blast simply because it's Lead Lined (patent pending). I think it goes great with the retro-50's feel of most of the movie.


Well obviously it and he survived because Indy ducked and covered! :smallbiggrin:

Dervag
2008-05-26, 10:45 PM
About the fridge...

A led-lined fridge might protect him from the radiation, but COME ON. If you're caught up n a nuclear explosion, it's not the radiation that's going to kill you. Wouldn't the intense heat have turned him to ash? Wouldn't the primal, explosive forces disintegrated the fridge and everything in it? And even failing all of that, wouldn't he have at least broken some bones after being hurled so far and bounced around inside?I know a bit about nukes...Actually, it's plausible. The first thing to remember is that when a nuclear bomb detonates, all the actual detonating is done at a single point- where the bomb is, known as the hypocenter. The rest of the effects are due entirely to the tremendous force of that detonation creating lots of light, heat, and radiation that affect its surroundings.

There are three killers from a nuclear detonation- thermal pulse, shockwave, and radiation. The lead lining won't actually help much against radiation because the amount of lead that could plausibly be in the fridge isn't thick enough to block gamma rays- and nothing else could have penetrated the air between him and the blast, let alone a metal fridge door of any kind. On the other hand, most of the gamma rays that reach him will pass right through him. Direct radiation isn't a major killer for people caught far enough from a nuclear detonation that they won't be in the zone of total destruction. Inhaling radioactive isotopes or getting them on your skin from the fallout is, but the way Indy got out of the explosion would reduce that threat.

Indy probably got a considerable dose of radiation. Prompt precautions would help with the relatively low dose he got in the movie. The guys in radiation suits scrubbing him down are a part of those precautions. Drinking lots and lots of water would help too, because he needed to get as much of the radioactive fallout out of his system as fast as possible. Flushing the tubes, so to speak, helps. We didn't see him do that, but it's likely he did.

He should have gotten a considerably higher dose because the lead lining in the fridge couldn't have been all that thick.
_______________________

The refrigerator would help enormously in protecting Indy from the shockwave. The nuclear detonation superheats the air around it, creating a shockwave as the heated air bounces away from the blast point and drives the less heated air outwards. This is the same effect that allows a lightning bolt to create a thunderclap. It's probably what you're thinking of when you talk about "primal explosive forces."

The shockwave propagates outward through air at a pressure of several pounds per square inch on everything it strikes. This pressure drops off with the inverse square of your distance from the hypocenter- as do the other effects of a nuclear blast. We can estimate the force of the shockwave later on. The key thing to remember is that buildings, which have many thousands of square feet of space, will experience a force of many thousands of pounds. For instance, imagine a wall is hit by a shockwave that delivers a pressure of five pounds per square inch. That's as if we left the wall lying parallel to the ground like a tabletop, and then put five pounds of weight on every square inch of the surface.

Obviously, that's enough force to collapse the walls of most ordinary buildings, which are not designed to stand up to large pressures pushing sideways. The most a normal building is designed to withstand is a very high wind, and not even a hurricane-force wind exerts the kind of pressures a nuclear shockwave at close range exerts. Thus, the houses in the dummy suburb would probably collapse from being slapped with immense force- the same kind of force that would be exerted if someone suddenly left many tons of steel resting on their roofs.

The shockwave is actually more dangerous to objects with a big surface area facing the blast (like houses) than objects with a small surface area (like people). A shockwave that would collapse a house might merely knock a man down. If nuclear explosions produced nothing but shockwave the smartest thing you could do to protect yourself would be to run out in the street and cover your ears. They don't, so it isn't.

The fridge would do a LOT to protect Indy from the shockwave.

Because he was inside a rigid steel container, the air around Indy would not have been compressed. Being wrapped inside a house would have muffled the shockwave inside the house itself, and being in a rigid steel box would have muffled it further, preventing him from being buffeted by the shockwave personally. Also, the refrigerator would have protected him from being crushed if the house collapsed, which was the most likely thing to kill him if he was hit by the shockwave while indoors.
__________________________

The final killer of a nuclear detonation is the thermal pulse. The thermal pulse is a blast of UV, visible light, and infrared produced by the detonation itself. It spreads out from the hypocenter at the speed of light and superheats anything it touches. Once again, the amount of heating drops off with the square of the distance. At the distance the dummy suburb was from the blast, this was enough to start fires and char or melt the material the dummies were made of. If Indy had been caught in the open he would have been horribly burned on exposed skin facing the blast, and any dark clothing he was wearing (such as his pants) would have been hot enough to cause further burns. This can be confirmed by looking at what happened to people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki- the main immediate killer was the terrible burns caused by the thermal pulse.

The refrigerator would have done an excellent job of protecting Indy from the thermal pulse. Simply being indoors with a wall between him and the hypocenter would have put him 'in the shade'- the wall would absorb all the direct light and infrared from the blast. He would only have to deal with the great heating of the house itself. If he had been trapped in the refrigerator as the house collapsed, that could have been a problem, and the most likely thing to kill Indy given where he was and what he did to protect himself. Especially if the rubble of the house had caught fire- which it might have.
____________________

But aside from that possibility, the refrigerator would have protected him quite well from the heat and shockwave of the nuclear blast. It is impossible that he could have been "thrown clear" in the manner that was seen in the film, but he didn't really need to be in order to survive.

I took the liberty of looking up the series of nuclear tests done in 1957 in Nevada, the "Plumbbob (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Plumbbob)" shots. These tests occured from May 28 to October 7, which gives us an idea of when the movie takes place. Since Indy got out of Nevada in time to be teaching at University of Maryland in the fall semester, it's most likely that he was caught in one of the shots prior to mid-August.

Of those shots the only ones in which the bomb was suspended above the ground on a tower in the way we saw were the Boltzman, Diablo, Kepler, and (maybe) Shasta shots. Anything later than Shasta (August 18) and he would probably have had to phone U.Md. and get someone to substitute for his first few weeks of classes, which would have given him time to be caught in any of several other shots, including the August 31 Smoky shot.

("I got caught in a nuclear explosion" would presumably be a good excuse for phoning in late to work).

Smoky was the largest of the tower tests in the Plumbbob series at 44 kilotons, two or three times the power of the Hiroshima bomb. The other tower tests were between 10 and 17 kilotons, of roughly equal power to the Hiroshima bomb. One other shot during the test series was more powerful, but that one had the bomb suspended from a balloon and not a tower.

Going here (http://stardestroyer.net/Empire/Science/Nuke.html) for a calculation of nuclear weapon effects, and assuming the worst-case scenario that Indy got caught in the Smoky shot (I don't know if there was any dummy suburb in the Smoky shot, though)...

the radius from the blast at which human beings would get third degree burns on exposed skin was about two miles, and the radius at which the shockwave would be considered powerful enough to knock down most buildings was between one and a half miles and two miles. When we saw the bomb itself and the dummy suburb in the distance, the suburb looked quite small in perspective, even though it's clearly a hundred yards across or more. This suggests that the actual nuclear bomb went off a one mile from Indy, perhaps more.

Given that the refrigerator would protect him from both the direct thermal blast and from being killed by falling debris in the shockwave, it is quite plausible that Indy could have survived the immediate effects of the blast at that range. The real threat would be radiation. At the estimated range prompt medical treatment would most likely have saved his life, but quite possibly not his health- certainly he'd have been in no shape to go adventuring later that year, and would most likely not have had a full head of hair ever again- certainly not in time for his interrogation by overzealous McCarthyist FBI agents.

Thus, the only real "Hollywood magic" involved in Indy's survival was:
-that the "lead lined" refrigerator could protect him from picking up a nasty radiation dose. At his range he should have taken several hundred REMs. See here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_poisoning) for information on what that would do. Of course, to put him down in 'safe' (very unlikely to kill or incapacitate him for long at all) levels the fridge would only have had to cut the radiation levels by a factor of five to ten. It would take at least an inch of lead to do that, almost certainly more, and the refrigerator can't have been that heavy or it would have been nearly impossible to move in the first place.

-that he was thrown so far (itself a piece of Hollywood magic) and survived that. He shouldn't have been thrown. If he was thrown, he certainly shouldn't have survived the experience, no matter how tough he was.
___________________________

Here's my take on what 'should' have happened, assuming Indy hid in a 'lead lined' fridge with a realistically thin lining (so it wouldn't be impossibly heavy), about one mile from a 17-kt nuclear explosion:

In a somewhat more realistic universe, Indy nonetheless managed to survive the actual nuclear explosion.

He was found some hours later, possibly as much as a day, stuck in the refrigerator in the wreckage of the collapsed house. He was found by a team of soldiers and technicians sent to the dummy suburb to examine the place and the effects of the bomb. He had thrown up inside the fridge several times due to radiation poisoning.

After being taken back to base he went through the expected latent phase of about a week, then fell severely ill. His hair would probably fall out at that point. He would have felt great fatigue and general illness symptoms, and his immune system would have been very weak.

He probably wouldn't have died, but it would have taken him months to get his strength back and he probably would never fully regain his disease resistance from before. His risk of cancer went through the roof.

Plotwise, unless all the action in Peru and Brazil took place next year (when he just might have been up for it, maybe), he couldn't have accomplished anything very physical. He might have been able to teach in the (late) fall of 1957, but quite possibly not. Had KGB agents come looking for him he would not have been in good shape to fight them or escape them, let alone to manage the thrilling chase scene in the jungle with all the cars and trucks. To make matters worse, going to the jungles of South America would have been a very bad idea for his health and he might well have gotten very sick or even died from a tropical disease.

Don Beegles
2008-05-26, 11:14 PM
I saw it Friday night with my gf, and liked it a lot. I thought that some parts of it were cheesy, and it was by no means perfect, but it wasn't nearly as terrible as I had thought it might be. It felt like Indy; a little older, slightly out of practice but Indy all the same.

As for specific thoughts, hmm, let's see:
-I actually liked the aliens plot. It was obvious from the instant you saw Roswell on the case, and the first drawings of the skull, but it was actually fairly well done, and it blended with the Indian mysticism and became a new kind of fantasy, rather than representing a jump to sci-fi
-The fridge bit didn't bother me. I'd heard about it, and I did think "That wouldn't protect against a nuclear blast", but it was a good Indy stunt, like falling from a plane on a raft. It also set up for that shot of him with the bomb, which was amazing.
-I actually liked the falling from that waterfalls less. There was no suspense; falling down a waterfall in a boat is one of the most overused action movie tricks ever, and it's lost its meaning. I'm sure they could have come up with something better than that.
-I also didn't like the monkey's thing. I felt like they were trying to redo Connery's Charlemagne moment, and it didn't work. Not only was the CGI terrible, but it was way too cheesy and unrealistic, even for an Indiana Jones movie.
-I haven't noticed any other comments on this, so maybe I was just seeing things, but I swear he picked up a gold coin in the crypt, and it got magnetically attracted to the skull. Now, I can like with alien crystals that exhibit ferromagnetism, I can even live with having gunpowder fly to it across a room, but have a wooden box stop anything else, but when you start making gold magnetic, I have an issue. My girlfriend told me to stop bringing physics to action movies, but that's not physics, it's plain common sense. That was actually my least favorite part of the movie.
-And I noticed someone else mention it, but what was up with those tomb guys? I sort of assumed that they were "the living dead" like those natives at the city, but it never got mentioned by anyone, they were just assumed to be there. Was that one sign that said "Graverobbers will be shot" supposed to support their existence, because that's fairly weak.
-The end bit with the hat was great. When Shia (who I liked) picked it up, I groaned. I cheered a little when Ford took it from him. "Take that bitch. You may be my son, but I'm still Indiana Jones."
-Oh, and I liked having Shia's character nicknamed "Mutt", after a dog. I thought that was pretty funny, and I laughed when I noticed it.

Despite my complaints, I really enjoyed it. It was definitely better than Temple of Doom, and I rather enjoyed Temple of Doom.

Edan
2008-05-26, 11:19 PM
I enjoyed it mostly except for the over the top things
Like the vine swinging, the fridge, the whole alien thing, etc.
although my biggest beef with the movie is that
In the previous movies, the artifacts were religious, divine objects that had long legacies built around them. However, in this movie they throw in some Aliens and do a massive WTF ending with the saucer taking off.

The marriage was weird in my opinion. Indy never took me as the type to get married, always sleeping around and living such an active traveling life. I guess this can be attributed to his old age. The only thing that scares me is the idea of "Indiana Jones & Family" spinoff or something. Kind of what happened to Back to the Future and its spinoff animated series.

Overall, I liked it I think it deserves a 7.5/10, not great, but not bad. The franchise really helps to sell this movie. I guess it could be compared to Temple of Doom level of quality.

Talya
2008-05-27, 01:27 AM
I know a bit about nukes...Actually, it's plausible. The first thing to remember is that when a nuclear bomb detonates, all the actual detonating is done at a single point- where the bomb is, known as the hypocenter. The rest of the effects are due entirely to the tremendous force of that detonation creating lots of light, heat, and radiation that affect its surroundings.

There are three killers from a nuclear detonation- thermal pulse, shockwave, and radiation. The lead lining won't actually help much against radiation because the amount of lead that could plausibly be in the fridge isn't thick enough to block gamma rays- and nothing else could have penetrated the air between him and the blast, let alone a metal fridge door of any kind. On the other hand, most of the gamma rays that reach him will pass right through him. Direct radiation isn't a major killer for people caught far enough from a nuclear detonation that they won't be in the zone of total destruction. Inhaling radioactive isotopes or getting them on your skin from the fallout is, but the way Indy got out of the explosion would reduce that threat.

Indy probably got a considerable dose of radiation. Prompt precautions would help with the relatively low dose he got in the movie. The guys in radiation suits scrubbing him down are a part of those precautions. Drinking lots and lots of water would help too, because he needed to get as much of the radioactive fallout out of his system as fast as possible. Flushing the tubes, so to speak, helps. We didn't see him do that, but it's likely he did.

He should have gotten a considerably higher dose because the lead lining in the fridge couldn't have been all that thick.
_______________________

The refrigerator would help enormously in protecting Indy from the shockwave. The nuclear detonation superheats the air around it, creating a shockwave as the heated air bounces away from the blast point and drives the less heated air outwards. This is the same effect that allows a lightning bolt to create a thunderclap. It's probably what you're thinking of when you talk about "primal explosive forces."

The shockwave propagates outward through air at a pressure of several pounds per square inch on everything it strikes. This pressure drops off with the inverse square of your distance from the hypocenter- as do the other effects of a nuclear blast. We can estimate the force of the shockwave later on. The key thing to remember is that buildings, which have many thousands of square feet of space, will experience a force of many thousands of pounds. For instance, imagine a wall is hit by a shockwave that delivers a pressure of five pounds per square inch. That's as if we left the wall lying parallel to the ground like a tabletop, and then put five pounds of weight on every square inch of the surface.

Obviously, that's enough force to collapse the walls of most ordinary buildings, which are not designed to stand up to large pressures pushing sideways. The most a normal building is designed to withstand is a very high wind, and not even a hurricane-force wind exerts the kind of pressures a nuclear shockwave at close range exerts. Thus, the houses in the dummy suburb would probably collapse from being slapped with immense force- the same kind of force that would be exerted if someone suddenly left many tons of steel resting on their roofs.

The shockwave is actually more dangerous to objects with a big surface area facing the blast (like houses) than objects with a small surface area (like people). A shockwave that would collapse a house might merely knock a man down. If nuclear explosions produced nothing but shockwave the smartest thing you could do to protect yourself would be to run out in the street and cover your ears. They don't, so it isn't.

The fridge would do a LOT to protect Indy from the shockwave.

Because he was inside a rigid steel container, the air around Indy would not have been compressed. Being wrapped inside a house would have muffled the shockwave inside the house itself, and being in a rigid steel box would have muffled it further, preventing him from being buffeted by the shockwave personally. Also, the refrigerator would have protected him from being crushed if the house collapsed, which was the most likely thing to kill him if he was hit by the shockwave while indoors.
__________________________

The final killer of a nuclear detonation is the thermal pulse. The thermal pulse is a blast of UV, visible light, and infrared produced by the detonation itself. It spreads out from the hypocenter at the speed of light and superheats anything it touches. Once again, the amount of heating drops off with the square of the distance. At the distance the dummy suburb was from the blast, this was enough to start fires and char or melt the material the dummies were made of. If Indy had been caught in the open he would have been horribly burned on exposed skin facing the blast, and any dark clothing he was wearing (such as his pants) would have been hot enough to cause further burns. This can be confirmed by looking at what happened to people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki- the main immediate killer was the terrible burns caused by the thermal pulse.

The refrigerator would have done an excellent job of protecting Indy from the thermal pulse. Simply being indoors with a wall between him and the hypocenter would have put him 'in the shade'- the wall would absorb all the direct light and infrared from the blast. He would only have to deal with the great heating of the house itself. If he had been trapped in the refrigerator as the house collapsed, that could have been a problem, and the most likely thing to kill Indy given where he was and what he did to protect himself. Especially if the rubble of the house had caught fire- which it might have.
____________________

But aside from that possibility, the refrigerator would have protected him quite well from the heat and shockwave of the nuclear blast. It is impossible that he could have been "thrown clear" in the manner that was seen in the film, but he didn't really need to be in order to survive.

I took the liberty of looking up the series of nuclear tests done in 1957 in Nevada, the "Plumbbob (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Plumbbob)" shots. These tests occured from May 28 to October 7, which gives us an idea of when the movie takes place. Since Indy got out of Nevada in time to be teaching at University of Maryland in the fall semester, it's most likely that he was caught in one of the shots prior to mid-August.

Of those shots the only ones in which the bomb was suspended above the ground on a tower in the way we saw were the Boltzman, Diablo, Kepler, and (maybe) Shasta shots. Anything later than Shasta (August 18) and he would probably have had to phone U.Md. and get someone to substitute for his first few weeks of classes, which would have given him time to be caught in any of several other shots, including the August 31 Smoky shot.

("I got caught in a nuclear explosion" would presumably be a good excuse for phoning in late to work).

Smoky was the largest of the tower tests in the Plumbbob series at 44 kilotons, two or three times the power of the Hiroshima bomb. The other tower tests were between 10 and 17 kilotons, of roughly equal power to the Hiroshima bomb. One other shot during the test series was more powerful, but that one had the bomb suspended from a balloon and not a tower.

Going here (http://stardestroyer.net/Empire/Science/Nuke.html) for a calculation of nuclear weapon effects, and assuming the worst-case scenario that Indy got caught in the Smoky shot (I don't know if there was any dummy suburb in the Smoky shot, though)...

the radius from the blast at which human beings would get third degree burns on exposed skin was about two miles, and the radius at which the shockwave would be considered powerful enough to knock down most buildings was between one and a half miles and two miles. When we saw the bomb itself and the dummy suburb in the distance, the suburb looked quite small in perspective, even though it's clearly a hundred yards across or more. This suggests that the actual nuclear bomb went off a one mile from Indy, perhaps more.

Given that the refrigerator would protect him from both the direct thermal blast and from being killed by falling debris in the shockwave, it is quite plausible that Indy could have survived the immediate effects of the blast at that range. The real threat would be radiation. At the estimated range prompt medical treatment would most likely have saved his life, but quite possibly not his health- certainly he'd have been in no shape to go adventuring later that year, and would most likely not have had a full head of hair ever again- certainly not in time for his interrogation by overzealous McCarthyist FBI agents.

Thus, the only real "Hollywood magic" involved in Indy's survival was:
-that the "lead lined" refrigerator could protect him from picking up a nasty radiation dose. At his range he should have taken several hundred REMs. See here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_poisoning) for information on what that would do. Of course, to put him down in 'safe' (very unlikely to kill or incapacitate him for long at all) levels the fridge would only have had to cut the radiation levels by a factor of five to ten. It would take at least an inch of lead to do that, almost certainly more, and the refrigerator can't have been that heavy or it would have been nearly impossible to move in the first place.

-that he was thrown so far (itself a piece of Hollywood magic) and survived that. He shouldn't have been thrown. If he was thrown, he certainly shouldn't have survived the experience, no matter how tough he was.
___________________________

Here's my take on what 'should' have happened, assuming Indy hid in a 'lead lined' fridge with a realistically thin lining (so it wouldn't be impossibly heavy), about one mile from a 17-kt nuclear explosion:

In a somewhat more realistic universe, Indy nonetheless managed to survive the actual nuclear explosion.

He was found some hours later, possibly as much as a day, stuck in the refrigerator in the wreckage of the collapsed house. He was found by a team of soldiers and technicians sent to the dummy suburb to examine the place and the effects of the bomb. He had thrown up inside the fridge several times due to radiation poisoning.

After being taken back to base he went through the expected latent phase of about a week, then fell severely ill. His hair would probably fall out at that point. He would have felt great fatigue and general illness symptoms, and his immune system would have been very weak.

He probably wouldn't have died, but it would have taken him months to get his strength back and he probably would never fully regain his disease resistance from before. His risk of cancer went through the roof.

Plotwise, unless all the action in Peru and Brazil took place next year (when he just might have been up for it, maybe), he couldn't have accomplished anything very physical. He might have been able to teach in the (late) fall of 1957, but quite possibly not. Had KGB agents come looking for him he would not have been in good shape to fight them or escape them, let alone to manage the thrilling chase scene in the jungle with all the cars and trucks. To make matters worse, going to the jungles of South America would have been a very bad idea for his health and he might well have gotten very sick or even died from a tropical disease.


While all this is very fascinating (Seriously, I read it all!), Indy's less concerned with realism than D&D. Do you know how many catgirls you just killed?

Jibar
2008-05-27, 02:48 AM
I saw it Friday night with my gf, and liked it a lot. I thought that some parts of it were cheesy, and it was by no means perfect, but it wasn't nearly as terrible as I had thought it might be. It felt like Indy; a little older, slightly out of practice but Indy all the same.

As for specific thoughts, hmm, let's see:
--I haven't noticed any other comments on this, so maybe I was just seeing things, but I swear he picked up a gold coin in the crypt, and it got magnetically attracted to the skull. Now, I can like with alien crystals that exhibit ferromagnetism, I can even live with having gunpowder fly to it across a room, but have a wooden box stop anything else, but when you start making gold magnetic, I have an issue. My girlfriend told me to stop bringing physics to action movies, but that's not physics, it's plain common sense. That was actually my least favorite part of the movie.



Actually, Mr Boof said "Gold isn't magnetic" right after that. It was supposed to serve as a sign that this skull is not obeying human laws of physics, as can be seen by the fact that gunpowder is only drawn to it when thrown in the air, not when he's holding it or anything. :smallbiggrin:

Edit: Cat-Muffin thank you very much mr Green Smiley Head Dude.

poleboy
2008-05-27, 02:52 AM
-I haven't noticed any other comments on this, so maybe I was just seeing things, but I swear he picked up a gold coin in the crypt, and it got magnetically attracted to the skull. Now, I can like with alien crystals that exhibit ferromagnetism, I can even live with having gunpowder fly to it across a room, but have a wooden box stop anything else, but when you start making gold magnetic, I have an issue. My girlfriend told me to stop bringing physics to action movies, but that's not physics, it's plain common sense. That was actually my least favorite part of the movie.

-And I noticed someone else mention it, but what was up with those tomb guys? I sort of assumed that they were "the living dead" like those natives at the city, but it never got mentioned by anyone, they were just assumed to be there. Was that one sign that said "Graverobbers will be shot" supposed to support their existence, because that's fairly weak.


The magnetism... Mutt actually says something like "gold isn't magnetic?" I think the explanation goes something like:
It's a weird skull.. from SPAAACE! By the way, gunpowder doesn't contain metal either AFAIK

EDIT: Ninja'ed by a cat. Not surprising.

Tomb guys... I didn't get that either. They were never spoken of, before or after the scene. Apparently, it was just a random action moment. I didn't like it much either, because it made absolutely no sense. It's actually one of the things I disliked the most about the movie, because it had nothing to do with the story and served no purpose.

Serpentine
2008-05-27, 02:59 AM
I would just like to say,the big-stone-disc door? Awesome. *plots for D&D*

Falconer
2008-05-27, 09:27 PM
Overall in my opinion it was an okay movie, but the aliens seemed to be a bit...non-fitting for an Indy film (is it just me or does Spielberg seem to have a thing for aliens?).

In a nutshell for me, it's pretty much just another movie with "the native americans weren't smart enough to do anything without being taught how by aliens" as the key to its plot. Which really, really gets on my nerves :smallannoyed:...

Kane
2008-05-27, 09:32 PM
Touche. Never happens to white European civilizations.

I thought it was good, and while I wasn't fond of the aliens, I thought it did very well keeping them to the last, and minimizing the involvement. Villain was kind of bland, though, and there wasn't enough bull-whip action. Aside from that, I liked it a lot, and can't wait for the next one.

Don Beegles
2008-05-27, 09:36 PM
Yeah, I mentioned that to my friends, and apparently they all said that Shia had that line. I didn't hear it. If it were right after, I probably drowned him out myself by saying that gold wasn't magnetic. I guess if that's the case it's more forgiveable. I would make some comment about if it's not following Human laws of physics, what laws is it following, but it's Indiana Jones, so I won't argue too much.

I still have no idea about those random natives, though.

Dervag
2008-05-27, 09:37 PM
While all this is very fascinating (Seriously, I read it all!), Indy's less concerned with realism than D&D. Do you know how many catgirls you just killed?I've said it once and I'll say it again.

I believe that catgirls are continuously created and destroyed by natural forces, and that this is part of the cycle of life. Therefore, the fact that I killed off some catgirls by going into a lengthy discussion of whether or not a man could survive one of the Plumbbob tower shots by taking cover inside a refrigerator does not bother me. I am sure that some other catgirls will be spontaneously generated by mechanisms I neither know nor am inclined to investigate. Certainly, there doesn't seem to be a shortage of the beasts around.

Now, if catgirls become rare and endangered, I will have to rethink my methods. But this hasn't happened yet.


Overall in my opinion it was an okay movie, but the aliens seemed to be a bit...non-fitting for an Indy film (is it just me or does Spielberg seem to have a thing for aliens?).

In a nutshell for me, it's pretty much just another movie with "the native americans weren't smart enough to do anything without being taught how by aliens" as the key to its plot. Which really, really gets on my nerves :smallannoyed:...Well, there's an implication that the aliens were involved in the development of other cultures too, hence their collections of early Egyptian and Oriental art.

Also, it's not obvious to me that the Native Americans who lived in this alien-designed city in the jungle passed their secrets on to the Olmec and other early city-building cultures of the Americas. This could be the American equivalent of Atlantis- a lost culture of high technology that was independently rediscovered by later eras.


Touche. Never happens to white European civilizations.Assuming Atlantis and such don't count, true. You know why?

Because it is already known that white Europeans got much of their technology from other parts of the world. Yes, there have been people who thought "Native Americans are stupid primitives, how could they have built cities, aliens must have helped them?" But you could equally well cite the precedent that the Celtic peoples of northern Europe- the direct ancestors of many of those same people- didn't build cities until the Romans showed them how. And the Romans got a lot of their ideas from Greece, who got quite a few of them from Persia and Egypt, and the Persians got a lot of their ideas from Mesopotamia...

Rappy
2008-05-28, 11:53 AM
In a nutshell for me, it's pretty much just another movie with "the native americans weren't smart enough to do anything without being taught how by aliens" as the key to its plot. Which really, really gets on my nerves :smallannoyed:...

This is more or less plot-mooching from real world legends of the crystal skulls being from "sky gods". The ancient astronaut theory is a popular one in the world of fiction writing.

BRC
2008-05-28, 12:01 PM
My final opinons

The movie was good. They should have cut out the nuke Fridge scene, it was uneccssary and abit over the top. Also the ending scene should have been shorter, rather than the whole "aliens skeleton merge" thing, just have the crazy russian lady get zapped the skeleton laser eyes or somthing.

Also, greedy british dude should have gotten punched in the face alot more.

Headless_Ninja
2008-05-28, 01:22 PM
Anyone else hear about some higher-ups in the Russian government getting really upset about it because the west was misleading their impressionable youth with false stories of 'the Soviet Union running around South America after a crystal skull, causing trouble for the United States and nearly starting a nuclear war'?

Muz
2008-05-28, 02:56 PM
Yup. Someone needs to get those folks a dictionary with the definition for "fiction" highlighted. :smallsmile:

Dervag
2008-05-28, 05:53 PM
Anyone else hear about some higher-ups in the Russian government getting really upset about it because the west was misleading their impressionable youth with false stories of 'the Soviet Union running around South America after a crystal skull, causing trouble for the United States and nearly starting a nuclear war'?And rightly so! The Soviet Union was not after a crystal skull!

hanzo66
2008-05-28, 08:01 PM
Personally I was not all that impressed with the movie. Not exactly horrid, but I still prefer Iron Man.

I did find the whole idea behind the Crystal Skull a bit too ridiculous for my liking. I'm not sure why, but Shia LeBeuf seems to be an actor who naturally plays Scrappies. Not sure it's out of questionable skills or just roles that were never that great, but he just seems to be the one whose roles end up making a lot of NERDRAGE.

Silent Hunter
2008-05-29, 11:51 AM
Anyone else hear about some higher-ups in the Russian government getting really upset about it because the west was misleading their impressionable youth with false stories of 'the Soviet Union running around South America after a crystal skull, causing trouble for the United States and nearly starting a nuclear war'?

It was actually the Russian Communist Party, but I heard about it.

Joran
2008-05-29, 03:04 PM
Overall in my opinion it was an okay movie, but the aliens seemed to be a bit...non-fitting for an Indy film (is it just me or does Spielberg seem to have a thing for aliens?).


He does, but the alien subplot was George Lucas' idea.

To quote a newspaper story:

In its earliest incarnation, Lucas proposed an all-out alien flick called "Indiana Jones and the Saucer Men From Mars." Spielberg and Ford didn't like that idea, and it took more than a decade of wrangling to come up with a story all three could live with.

A trailer showing a crate marked "Roswell, New Mexico, 1947" -- a mecca for UFO buffs -- hints that the movie retains traces of its extraterrestrial origins. Remarks by Lucas that the new film took its cue from 1950s sci-fi tales backs up that notion.

"The B-movies of the '50s were crazy science-fiction films, 'It Came From Outer Space' and 'Them!' and I said, 'Well, gee, I could use that as the basis of the genre that I was using as my reference,' " Lucas said.

George Lucas needs to be stopped.

P.S. I personally didn't like the alien aspect of the story. I have mental dissonance whenever anything from what I consider science fiction crosses over into fantasy or vice versa. So, since Indiana Jones was firmly in the realm of fantasy, I found the aliens to be rather disconcerting and annoying.

Ranna
2008-05-29, 05:53 PM
I found parts of the movie parody-like, it really upset me!

Which is strange because I am the most accepting of all movies and plots.

So for me to not like a film or find it irritating is quite the achievement!

Saint Nil
2008-05-29, 06:10 PM
I was suprized at how well Harrison Ford pulled off an old Indiana Jones. I also liked how the CGI wasn't so obvious (till the end).

It was great till the Alien part, which in my opinion should have been Incan magic or something. I mean, come on, Ark of the Covenet + Indian Cult+Holy Grail = aliens? Honestly, I just ignore the ending and replace it with of my own.

Still, the movie was great, and I'm glad Speilburg didn't let Indy's kid put on his hat. Glad to see that Indianas legacy is still his own.

Gaelbert
2008-05-29, 09:02 PM
The Spanish Civil War even got people who were strongly against Communism involved fighting the Fascists- George Orwell for example.

Minor nitpick.
Orwell wasn't strongly against communism. He was strongly against Stalin. I believe Orwell actually was a communist.

Don Beegles
2008-05-29, 09:12 PM
I think he has a socialist, if you want to get picky, but most of the people who promote "communism" in the west were technically socialists, because it's a fine line.

I definitely agree with his anti-stalin tendencies, though. The things in the book that are the most obviously frowned on are dictatorial acts, not Communist: the abuse of the Dogs and Boxer's knackering. The point is not that Communism is wrong, the point is that Communism doesn't work when you put someone in charge.

hanzo66
2008-05-29, 10:03 PM
Also here's a review (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ER-CyEBjIxA)of the movie by James Rolfe (The guy who does the Angry Video Game Nerd, though he's not doing the persona for the review). He sets some fairly decent standards for the movie.

TigerHunter
2008-05-29, 10:36 PM
He does, but the alien subplot was George Lucas' idea.

To quote a newspaper story:


George Lucas needs to be stopped.

P.S. I personally didn't like the alien aspect of the story. I have mental dissonance whenever anything from what I consider science fiction crosses over into fantasy or vice versa. So, since Indiana Jones was firmly in the realm of fantasy, I found the aliens to be rather disconcerting and annoying.
I don't believe that quote for a second. "Indiana Jones and the Saucer Men from Mars"? I'll eat nails before I believe that that wasn't made up by a Lucas-bashing fanboy.

adanedhel9
2008-05-29, 10:54 PM
Just got back. I marginally enjoyed it... it was a fun action flick. As everyone else has said, there were several moments of fridge logic, but I was the only one that noticed this:

Why was everything based on Mayan? They were in Peru! There was one reference to the locals speaking Quechua. Everything else was Mayan this, Mayan that - even the writing system in the throne room had a distinctly Mayan look to it (of course, Quechua didn't even have a writing system). I cannot think of a good reason why the KotCS would use Mayan when they were set up 1000 miles away from that civilization.

JadedDM
2008-05-30, 03:13 AM
I don't believe that quote for a second. "Indiana Jones and the Saucer Men from Mars"? I'll eat nails before I believe that that wasn't made up by a Lucas-bashing fanboy.

Really? (http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20192043_3,00.html)

Die Hard scribe Jeb Stuart got the boulder rolling with an early-'90s script titled Indiana Jones and the Saucer Men From Mars, a stab at addressing one of Lucas' central ideas. It made sense, Lucas argued, for the first three Indy movies to imitate 1930s and '40s adventure serials, as the stories were set in that period. But with Indy older, and the setting pushed to the '50s, the genre should also switch to the sort of trope you'd find only in that later era: namely, aliens invading Earth in spaceships with the military in hot pursuit. Or so Lucas argued, to raspberries from his collaborators. ''Harrison said, 'No way am I being in a Steve Spielberg movie like that,''' recalls Lucas. ''And Steven said, 'I don't know, I don't know, I don't know.'''

You can read the summary of the script here (http://www.theraider.net/features/articles/lost_drafts_05.php).

Joran
2008-05-30, 09:12 AM
I don't believe that quote for a second. "Indiana Jones and the Saucer Men from Mars"? I'll eat nails before I believe that that wasn't made up by a Lucas-bashing fanboy.

Here's the story I got the quotation from:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/SHOWBIZ/Movies/05/16/film.cannes.indiana.jones.ap/

Dervag
2008-05-30, 10:21 AM
Re: what language the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull speaks

Well, they predate both the Mayan and the Incan civilizations by a millenium or three. It's quite possible that the survivors of the kingdom in question ended up migrating north towards the coast and along the coast to the Yucatan, rather than settling in the mountains.

Also, the Kingdom in question is in the middle of the Amazon- not Peru. The Peruvians at Nazca speak Quechua, but Quechua is an Andean language, not one of the Amazon basin itself.
____________________

Re: Indiana Jones and the Saucer Men from Mars

That may well have been a working title, too. Working titles are often corny or simplistic because they aren't intended to be evocative or to sell well.

stm177
2008-05-30, 01:13 PM
Spoiler:

The crystal skull looked like it was made from cheap plastic stuffed with crumpled saran wrap (the stuff you use to wrap up sandwiches).


It's weird they didn't spend a couple hundred thousand dollars to carve a real crystal skull out of quartz. I could tell that the skull was plastic since they were swinging it around like it weighed 5 pounds.

adanedhel9
2008-05-30, 01:44 PM
Re: what language the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull speaks

Well, they predate both the Mayan and the Incan civilizations by a millenium or three. It's quite possible that the survivors of the kingdom in question ended up migrating north towards the coast and along the coast to the Yucatan, rather than settling in the mountains.

Except (at least from the evidence we have) they didn't. The Kingdom's capitol (complete with extensive pseudo-Mayan writing) was still in South America when the conquistadors arrived (well after Mayan had been established as a language). I suppose the Kingdom could've spread and adopted Mayan as its primary language in its later years, but then I'd expect significant, recent Mayan influence on the local languages (which there's no evidence of).


Also, the Kingdom in question is in the middle of the Amazon- not Peru. The Peruvians at Nazca speak Quechua, but Quechua is an Andean language, not one of the Amazon basin itself.

A significant portion of Peru is in the Amazon Basin... but point taken. I'm just now remembering a point where a name was specifically called out as Portugese, which would place the second half of the movie in Brazil.

Alias
2008-05-30, 01:55 PM
To much CGI. maybe this was to much for me to hope for.

Well apparently you've seen enough CGI that you cannot tell the difference anymore. Most all of the stunts where real - CGI was used to remove the safety harnesses and guy wires from sight.

Mewtarthio
2008-05-30, 04:46 PM
Here's my take on what 'should' have happened, assuming Indy hid in a 'lead lined' fridge with a realistically thin lining (so it wouldn't be impossibly heavy), about one mile from a 17-kt nuclear explosion:

In a somewhat more realistic universe, Indy nonetheless managed to survive the actual nuclear explosion.

He was found some hours later, possibly as much as a day, stuck in the refrigerator in the wreckage of the collapsed house. He was found by a team of soldiers and technicians sent to the dummy suburb to examine the place and the effects of the bomb. He had thrown up inside the fridge several times due to radiation poisoning.

After being taken back to base he went through the expected latent phase of about a week, then fell severely ill. His hair would probably fall out at that point. He would have felt great fatigue and general illness symptoms, and his immune system would have been very weak.

He probably wouldn't have died, but it would have taken him months to get his strength back and he probably would never fully regain his disease resistance from before. His risk of cancer went through the roof.

Plotwise, unless all the action in Peru and Brazil took place next year (when he just might have been up for it, maybe), he couldn't have accomplished anything very physical. He might have been able to teach in the (late) fall of 1957, but quite possibly not. Had KGB agents come looking for him he would not have been in good shape to fight them or escape them, let alone to manage the thrilling chase scene in the jungle with all the cars and trucks. To make matters worse, going to the jungles of South America would have been a very bad idea for his health and he might well have gotten very sick or even died from a tropical disease.


No offense, Dervag, but that would have made a terrible movie. :smalltongue:

turkishproverb
2008-05-30, 10:51 PM
You don't want to draw attention to the place.

Pretty good movie. Just don't analyse it too closely. There was literal Fridge Logic

I thought it was pretty good, better than TOD.
Good:

Loved when that box got hit and you glimpse the ark inside.
Loved the Pancho Villa reverence, and the other young indy stuff.
Azteks, YAY!
"I like Ike"
"Say its a rope"
"Your a teacher?" "Part time"
The dog name
aliens not starting all those cultures, but grabbing crap from them

YAY! the cool girlfriend is back. and still good looking!
The Last Hat Scene

and as to the supernatural feature
I liked that they made the alien(s) feel so natural. fealt like an extension of the old ancient astronaut idea thats been around since the idea of Aliens.

and whatever else may be said about the fridge scene:

IT wasn't quite as unrealistic as people think. Thought it flying was off.

The great line "So far the only thing you guys have me on is surviving a nuclear blast."

Given all the young indy references
Am I the only one who thinks he should have lost an eye?




And WHAT IS WITH ALL THE SHIA BASHING?

The kids a good actor, sure he hammed it up in spots, but anyone who thinks Harrison ford didn't ham it up a good deal during all 3 old indy films and the first 3 star wars films is LYING TO THEMSELVES.

Dervag
2008-05-30, 11:52 PM
No offense, Dervag, but that would have made a terrible movie. :smalltongue:I almost agree with you, with one caveat.

Harrison Ford could have made it work. You've got an Indy who's shaky; he's still smart and very good at stunts, but he doesn't have his full strength and he has to get things over fast before he gets exhausted. He has to figure out ways to beat the goons with one or two well placed blows rather than slugging it out with some juggernaut for five minutes. He has to plan ahead.

Also, he's more likely to use a gun.

Ford is good at portraying characters who have to push the extreme outer edge of their (limited) physical ability because it is JUST THAT IMPORTANT.

It could have made a good movie given the underlying talent of the team that made the movie. But it wouldn't have been true to Indy's Determinator (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Determinator) nature, so it wouldn't have been an especially good Indiana Jones movie.

factotum
2008-05-31, 12:39 AM
It's weird they didn't spend a couple hundred thousand dollars to carve a real crystal skull out of quartz. I could tell that the skull was plastic since they were swinging it around like it weighed 5 pounds.

It's a movie--they probably had several "crystal" skulls because there's a significant chance of them getting damaged, or they might need one for a second unit shoot while one is being used by the main team. Therefore, take your 200k and multiply it by 5 or 6.

Silent Hunter
2008-05-31, 04:12 PM
Whatever your view on quality, this movie will make a hangar load of money.

TigerHunter
2008-05-31, 04:42 PM
Here's the story I got the quotation from:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/SHOWBIZ/Movies/05/16/film.cannes.indiana.jones.ap/

Really? (http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20192043_3,00.html)

Die Hard scribe Jeb Stuart got the boulder rolling with an early-'90s script titled Indiana Jones and the Saucer Men From Mars, a stab at addressing one of Lucas' central ideas. It made sense, Lucas argued, for the first three Indy movies to imitate 1930s and '40s adventure serials, as the stories were set in that period. But with Indy older, and the setting pushed to the '50s, the genre should also switch to the sort of trope you'd find only in that later era: namely, aliens invading Earth in spaceships with the military in hot pursuit. Or so Lucas argued, to raspberries from his collaborators. ''Harrison said, 'No way am I being in a Steve Spielberg movie like that,''' recalls Lucas. ''And Steven said, 'I don't know, I don't know, I don't know.'''

You can read the summary of the script here (http://www.theraider.net/features/articles/lost_drafts_05.php).
Defeat conceded. You're right. George Lucas must be stopped...

kpenguin
2008-05-31, 04:49 PM
Defeat conceded. You're right. George Lucas must be stopped...

You just realized that now?

George Lucas has had to be stopped for a long time...

Eita
2008-05-31, 09:55 PM
You just realized that now?

George Lucas has had to be stopped for a long time...

*Points at New Trilogy*

James Earl Jones does not have the right voice to scream "NOOOO!" with.

turkishproverb
2008-06-04, 01:19 AM
I repeat, though, given the references, does anyone else think: INdy should've lost an eye?

http://images.wikia.com/indianajones/images/2/25/OldIndy.jpg http://steveandamysly.tannerworld.com/databank/image_youngindianajones_old1.jpg

jkdjr25
2008-06-05, 10:57 PM
I went and saw the new Indiana Jones movie yesterday. It was entertaining but I did think that part of the premise was a little silly. I caught myself shaking my head several times but I was impressed with Shia LeBeouf. He's still got some room to grow on the acting front but he held his own with some veteran actors and that's saying something.

Also he isn't Hayden. ;)

Beholder1995
2008-06-10, 09:05 AM
I saw the movie the day it came out. I was utterly dissapointed.

Even ignoring the aliens, spaceships, nuke-proof fridges, ridiculous stunts, vicious natives with 2 minutes of screen time, annoying CGI animals, and uncreative storyline, there is a single thing that bugs me to HECK. (Seriously, if you haven't seen the movie yet, don't open this next spoiler.)
Why, oh WHY did Indy have to get a son? It adds absolutely nothing to the plot except a few lame jokes. Indy doesn't need a son! I accepted the marriage thing wholeheartedly, after all, he is lonely. But for God's sake! Giving Indy a son was the stupidist, most predictable thing the screenwriters could've done! And Shia LaWhat's-his-name's character is just plain boring! In fact, the only thing that consolidated me was when Indy took the hat back. THAT was a relief.
Last thing: Mac is just annoying. Without Sallah, I was perfectly willing to welcome this new sidekick of Indy's, who has apparently worked with him for years and years, and who seemed to have an interesting personality. 5 minutes into the film? He's a bad guy. 45 minutes into the film? Good guy. 1 and a half hours into the film? He's a commie again.
I give it 5/10 . It certainly had the potential to be a good film, and there were parts that definitely made my smile, but for the most part it was just either wierd or uncreative. My ranking? 4th out of all the Indy films. :smallmad:

EDIT::: It's also worth noting that Harrison Ford's performance was wonderful, especially condidering his age- but lousy supporting characters (including a Karen Allen who seems more like Paula Abdul most of the time) diminish it.

valadil
2008-06-10, 10:19 AM
Finally saw it. I thought it was fun, but cartoony. Were they all that over the top and campy? I have a hard time telling since I was 7 when I first saw the originals.

The fridge pissed me off. I'd heard about him using it to survive the blast. I was ready to go along with that. Did it really have to get launched a mile with Indy inside?

The monkeys pissed me off too. And I'm someone who actually liked the Ewoks in Return of the Jedi. But the monkeys were just unnecessary. I'm starting to wonder if George Lucas is secretly a furry.

Honestly, if those two scenes were cut I would have liked it a whole lot better. Both of them killed my strained suspense of disbelief. I probably could have made it through the movies without snarking if not for those two scenes.

Athaniar
2008-06-13, 03:13 PM
Just saw it. Ah, this was truly a good movie.

That "I have a bad feeling about this" near the end was just great. And the alien skeletons looked awesome. And the nuclear blast. And the interdimensional UFO taking off. And the... well, everything.

WalkingTarget
2008-06-13, 04:00 PM
I only caught it a few days ago and I liked it. Something (minor) that bugged me was the presence of as much period music as there was (starting the film with Elvis, for example). That might not be a totally justifiable complaint as the second film began with "Anything Goes" but at least in that case it was a character performing it in Mandarin to make it interesting. I didn't come away from the film with any new Williams piece running through my head (only the main Indy theme). I can hum at least one song written for each of the other sequels.

I could have done without the CGI plants hitting Mutt in the crotch during the sword fight, though. Thinking about it, that's probably the sort of problem I have with the CGI in the film in the first place. It's not that they use CGI to aid in stunts and whatnot nowadays, it's that the ability to use CGI alters the type of stunts that are done. Back when it was all blue-screens and models, the models were still doing stuff that could be physically built, which restricts at least a semblance of realism to what the filmmaker can do. With computers running the show, the sky's the limit and this alters the tone of the film. That's the problem I have with the use of CGI here, not the mere presence, but the amount of "power creep" it allowed into the franchise.

And I'm not talking about the spaceship ending (which has something of a precedent when you make allowances from pulp-serial to sci-fi B movie; think the ghosts or whatever from Raiders or the volcano-pit thing from Temple), I'm thinking more along the lines of the Tarzan swinging, the aforementioned crotch-shots, and the monkey army.

Tirian
2008-06-13, 04:16 PM
Finally saw it. I thought it was fun, but cartoony. Were they all that over the top and campy? I have a hard time telling since I was 7 when I first saw the originals.

It's a little different. Raiders was slightly lightheared in paying homage to the Republic serials of the 50's; things like risking his life in the opening sequence to retrieve his hat. Indy had not yet become a cartoon character who could shake off every bruise he had received in the previous scene; one of the greatest scenes in Hollywood history drives home that Indy hurts just about everywhere (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcwecV-Nj9U) halfway through his quest. And it is, to put it simply, the greatest adventure movie of all time.

After that, the goal was to make movies that were more impressive than Raiders, which means things like enduring falls that a human couldn't be expected to survive and utterly impractical story elements like roller coaster mine carts along a track designed with an arcade game in mind. And the world started creating apologists who argued that we are the silly ones for insisting that the laws of gravity and human physiology are relevant in the face of the axiom of Indy Survives Everything.

Athaniar
2008-06-14, 07:19 AM
I don't go to movies expecting to see realism. What fun would that be if every movie was realistic?

Dervag
2008-06-14, 03:16 PM
Well, there's realism, and then there's what you might call "realistic fantasy."

In realistic fantasy, people may be achieving awesome feats of skill or toughness, like hitting the wheel of a buzz-saw truck with an RPG and having the aftermath disable the entire convoy. But their accomplishments are still limited to stuff you can imagine a real person being or doing, possibly given whatever MacGuffin is empowering them.

For example, the aforesaid shot Indy makes with an RPG-2. That's something we can imagine a person doing, even if we can't imagine a person doing it without a lot of luck. Mutt fencing with Colonel Spalko while keeping one foot on each of two trucks is, under the circumstances, 'realistic fantasy'. In real life anyone who did that would probably fall off and be severely injured, even if one of the drivers is his mother and trying to keep him from getting hurt. But we can imagine a person doing it.

On the other hand, when Mutt gets hit in the crotch by jungle plants during the aforesaid fencing match without suffering any apparent disabling pain, there's a problem. We cannot imagine a real man or woman doing that, no matter how badass they are, unless they are superhumanly resistant to pain and injury. Which isn't really an assumption of the Indy mythos. Indy may be tough but he's not tougher than we can imagine any real person being, and he doesn't have any physical invulnerability that allows him to easily survive blows that would have crippled a normal human if delivered in precisely the same way against the same target. And Mutt is supposed to be less tough than Indy, not more.

The entire fencing match is 'unrealistic' in that Mutt should have fallen off, but it's unrealistic in a way we can easily imagine is possible. Whereas the plants are not.
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Similarly, if I watch a movie about Superman, I will accept that he is in fact invulnerable, superhumanly strong, can fly, and can shoot freakin' laser beams from his eyes. That's about as unrealistic as I can imagine. I won't even ask questions like "How can Superman hold up a building when the building should be breaking and falling away from his hands?" I'll accept that as part of the initial assumptions about Superman's powers. So while it's unrealistic, it remains with the bounds of what I call "realistic fantasy."

But what if, at the end of the movie, Superman rebuilds the Great Wall of China by staring at it? That cannot be explained as an application of his existing powers. No one made a point of him being granted the new superpower of "Rebuild the Great Wall of China" vision. And so it breaks my acceptance of the fantasy by being unrealistic within the context of the fantasy.

Tyrant
2008-06-14, 10:20 PM
But what if, at the end of the movie, Superman rebuilds the Great Wall of China by staring at it? That cannot be explained as an application of his existing powers. No one made a point of him being granted the new superpower of "Rebuild the Great Wall of China" vision. And so it breaks my acceptance of the fantasy by being unrealistic within the context of the fantasy.

I just want to say that I agree with the other portion of what you wrote and that I really don't want to stand up for Superman IV (I assume that is what you are referring to), but there is a probable explanation within the movie mythology (probable, not airtight). In Superman II, Zod and company had the ability to move objects with nearly invisible beams from their fingers (if I recall correctly). It's been a while since I watched the movies (especially the ones that aren't I and II) but I don't recall Superman ever displaying this power. Perhaps (and again, this is a small stretch) his version of the ability was an optic beam and not a fingertip beam. He had been on Earth far longer and "should" (by comic book logic anyway) be far more powerful than them so such a feat wouldn't be beyond the realm of possibility given that set up. Having said that, Superman IV was more or less awful for any number of reasons and I count this amongst those reasons (just because he can maybe, possibly do something doesn't mean he should). Of course it's been a while since I watched the movies so I may just be imagining them having that ability.

Seraph
2008-06-14, 11:06 PM
I just want to say that I agree with the other portion of what you wrote and that I really don't want to stand up for Superman IV (I assume that is what you are referring to), but there is a probable explanation within the movie mythology (probable, not airtight). In Superman II, Zod and company had the ability to move objects with nearly invisible beams from their fingers (if I recall correctly). It's been a while since I watched the movies (especially the ones that aren't I and II) but I don't recall Superman ever displaying this power. Perhaps (and again, this is a small stretch) his version of the ability was an optic beam and not a fingertip beam. He had been on Earth far longer and "should" (by comic book logic anyway) be far more powerful than them so such a feat wouldn't be beyond the realm of possibility given that set up. Having said that, Superman IV was more or less awful for any number of reasons and I count this amongst those reasons (just because he can maybe, possibly do something doesn't mean he should). Of course it's been a while since I watched the movies so I may just be imagining them having that ability.


it's not that he put it back together, its that he glared at it and it got whole again in a double-exposure effect. not telekinesis, just bull****.

turkishproverb
2008-06-15, 01:11 AM
it's not that he put it back together, its that he glared at it and it got whole again in a double-exposure effect. not telekinesis, just bull****.

Keep in mind, the producers did embezzle about 2/3 of the budget for that movie.