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Verruckt
2008-05-20, 07:15 AM
So i finished Starship Troopers for the third time recently, and the following question came to mind: Which, on the whole, is the best mass production (or at least more than one-off prototype) single man powered armor/exosuit out there. The three examples that most readily present themselves are the following: of course an M.I. exo suit, what with it's mobility (powerful and agile jump packs) and fire power (Mini Nukes anyone?). Then we have the old standby of Space Marine Power Armor, good for both it's survivability (especially in Tac Dread models) and strength amplification (though whether this has more to do with the inhuman war gods inside those suits than the armor itself is unknown to me). Finally is a relative newcomer to the scene, the Mjolnir MK IV, worn by the Spartan II program graduates, including Master Chief. This one has the edge in terms of both size (not much larger than the wearer, as opposed to the other two) and strength multiplication (killing un-enhanced wearers, punching anti tank missiles etc.).

I'm sure there are others that I don't know of, but I would love to hear about them. Bring any others you know of to the table, and you thoughts as well, cheers! :smallsmile:

doliest
2008-05-20, 07:26 AM
I'm not really familiar with any of the ones you just mentioned, so I suggest...iron man maybe?

ZeroNumerous
2008-05-20, 07:31 AM
Well the Mark IV(the mass-produced version of the SPARTAN armor) lacks shields. Further, the Mark IV cannot hold an AI like Cortana. Given these differences between the Mark IV and the other power-suits presented, I'm gonna say that the Mark IV falls short.

As for Starship Troopers VS 40k. Well, I dunno too much about Starship Troopers but I do know a void grenade makes the argument irrelevant.

EvilDMMk3
2008-05-20, 07:32 AM
I would put my money on Warhammer 40K Tactical Deadnaught armour (AKA Terminator armour). The only weakness it really has is manoeuvrability. Default weapons are a double barrelled rapid-fire rocket propelled grenade launcher and a massive fist wrapped in a force field that is powerful enough to punch holes in half mile thick re-enforced steel (no exact reference but that is the general area of power.) OR a hammer of similar power with a built in taser and a small force field generator OR two hands containing a total of ten power weapons.

The upgraded weapons are even more awesome, but as I said, manoeuvrability is a major weakness.

Silent Hunter
2008-05-20, 07:46 AM
I would put my money on Warhammer 40K Tactical Deadnaught armour (AKA Terminator armour). The only weakness it really has is manoeuvrability. Default weapons are a double barrelled rapid-fire rocket propelled grenade launcher and a massive fist wrapped in a force field that is powerful enough to punch holes in half mile thick re-enforced steel (no exact reference but that is the general area of power.) OR a hammer of similar power with a built in taser and a small force field generator OR two hands containing a total of ten power weapons.

The upgraded weapons are even more awesome, but as I said, manoeuvrability is a major weakness.

You forgot the heavy flamer. I dub that one a "Twisted Fire Hazard".

Terminator Space Marines are brilliant.

Mr. Friendly
2008-05-20, 07:53 AM
Do Cyclones from Robotech/Mospeda count?

Of course there is always the Elemental from Battletech.

There are also the RIFTS Glitter Boy and SAMAS.

Verruckt
2008-05-20, 07:53 AM
M.I. means Mobile Infantry, the elite ground troops in the Starship troopers books. Note that the below image might not be entirely accurate, the book makes the seem a bit smaller than that, but a certain crap movie adaptation makes good pictures hard to find.


http://pen-paper.rpgshop.com/images/uploaded/stmarauderapes1.jpg


Space Marines are the genetically modified past the point of something remotely human super warriors of humanity from warhammer 40k, they have two main varieties of armor, normal and tactical dreadnought respectively. The smaller versions are NINE TO TEN feet tall just as an idea of scale.


http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/spacemarines/Red%20Scorpions/vetsg2.jpg
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/spacemarines/Red%20Scorpions/cullmhelm1.jpg


And the final should be instantly recognizable as soon as you see it (if it's not than Microsoft isn't nearly as pervasive as they think they are.)


http://www.geekzone.co.nz/images/news/MasterChiefMadameTussauds.jpg


Iron man is straight out because there is only one of them, which is why reading the entire first post is handy before shooting your mouth off. I'm trying to avoid horribly beardy cheesyness like void grenades, although I suppose mini nukes render them equals.

edit: whoops, make that MK VI, sorry.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-20, 08:03 AM
The Fallout Power armor, just because it was there before everyone else.

Attilargh
2008-05-20, 08:05 AM
Iron man is straight out because there is only one of them
Not quite. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Man_armor)

Oslecamo
2008-05-20, 08:08 AM
Gunten Terren Lagan mechas wich work based on how much the wearer thinks he's badass, and are clearly mass produced, with a wide array of weapons, and big as everything.

Ok, maybe they're a little too big, but they work based on the wearer's movements.

Krrth
2008-05-20, 08:09 AM
Do Cyclones from Robotech/Mospeda count?

Of course there is always the Elemental from Battletech.

There are also the RIFTS Glitter Boy and SAMAS.
Ooo...the cyclones. I had almost forgotten about those. Those things are nasty.

Saithis Bladewing
2008-05-20, 08:12 AM
The Fallout Power armor, just because it was there before everyone else.

I wasn't aware Fallout predated Robert A. Heinlein's 1959 novel...

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-20, 08:13 AM
I wasn't aware Fallout predated Robert A. Heinlein's 1959 novel...

It was most certainly the first humorous depiction of power armor.

Midnighter1021
2008-05-20, 08:30 AM
I'm going to have to go with the Glitter boy on this one mostly because of its resistance to lasers, and the boom gun.....you really cant forget about that now can you.
http://images.elfwood.com/art/t/i/tim/ngr.jpg

Verruckt
2008-05-20, 08:43 AM
is that powered armor or a mecha? looks pretty big to me:smallamused:

also, i love this thing:

http://www.theanimehouse.com/6Apr08/gitsarmsuit.jpg

from ghost in the shell, with Motoko Kusanagi beside it for scale, the gun is a .50 cal with underslung rpg type weapon, also has stealth capabilities and has been shown to resist hits from a BFG anti tank rifle.

shown here being AWESOME http://youtube.com/watch?v=YLoRvnrsApc
although, now that i think of it, this is really more of a indication that you do not **** with the major than anything else.

Fri
2008-05-20, 08:44 AM
HEV Suit Mark IV. Because it can make a book worm physicist turn into a one man genocidal army.

It isn't as powerful as the other suits. But come on, the other suit are either worn by a trained, specialized soldier (Starship trooper) or need heavy modifying on the wearer (Spartan armor and Space Marine's Armor).

And by the way, each Mobile Infantry have a tactical nuke on his suite. That sure count against black hole grenade.

13_CBS
2008-05-20, 08:45 AM
According to certain novels, Goliaths from Starcraft are arguably power suits (the book describes them as being suits so big and heavy that they're practically a vehicle).

They're not the most powerful, by far, but they have a few advantages:

Those autocannons aren't exactly peashooters.
They're powered armor, but they're much bigger than most powered armors.
They have reliable anti-air capabilities.
They can probably step on you. (Not that this will do much good against a Terminator-armored Marine, but oh well...)

Verruckt
2008-05-20, 08:49 AM
yeah, termies have a nasty habit of sitting back and giggling when things step on them, wonder why...

EvilDMMk3
2008-05-20, 09:00 AM
The thing is based on the fluff behind their invention I can say with 100% certainty that whilst a terminator may be able to kill almost any other comer in a battle, in a war terminators just do not work. They can hold a location fine, but just try taking somewhere with them. They where original meant to replace normal marine armor in totality, but it was found that they where too slow and too bulky to make an effective army, an opponent with common sense will wait for them to get into even vagley open ground and hit and run them. They can't even turn around quickly, but as the chainfisted, autocannoned tip of a power armored fist? Hells yes.

So clearly, BEST is highly relative.

warty goblin
2008-05-20, 09:33 AM
Just from the gameplay, I've never been that impressed by the Mjollnir armor. I mean come on, I strap most of a tank to myself and I still get wasted by guys with pump action shotguns spraying buckshot, weapons specifically noted for their poor penetrative capabilities? Also from the pictures it has always looked to me like it leaves major regions under-protected, all the joints and such, and the helmet isn't well attached to the armor (since it gets knocked off and all), which leaves you open to getting your neck broken by a headshot, even if it doesn't shatter the armor.

Also on the Space Marine Powered Armor, remember that the Sisters of Battle aren't super-human and use the same stuff, albeit not as well since they lack the black carapice to actually uplink directly to the armor. It makes them strong enough to use heavy bolters on their own, and the Imperial Guard usually needs a two man squad and a tripod mount to use a heavy bolter. I'm not sure if they have terminators though...

On a different note I've always been fond of the battle armor from the Honor Harrington books, although given that it seems like it can be taken out by handheld weapons weilded by none power armored people, I'm betting it would be crushed.

AslanCross
2008-05-20, 10:04 AM
Gunten Terren Lagan mechas wich work based on how much the wearer thinks he's badass, and are clearly mass produced, with a wide array of weapons, and big as everything.

Ok, maybe they're a little too big, but they work based on the wearer's movements.

I think you mean Tengen Toppa Gurren-Lagann. Those are full-fledged mecha and thus don't count. (Many other mecha directly move based on the pilot's movements.)

Although I'm pretty sure the stuff from WH40k is the strongest, I like the Landmates from Appleseed the most in terms of appearance. Briareos's Landmate in particular was awesome. In Appleseed Ex Machina (http://youtube.com/watch?v=159_x1L9980&feature=related):
He was not only holding akimbo assault rifles and cannons, but he had a folding chainsword tucked into his backpack as well. Unfortunately the landmates only appear in a couple of shots in that trailer.

black dragoon
2008-05-20, 12:46 PM
Darn, Iron man's out....
I'm tossing in on the original heavy powersuit and saying staship troopers mobile infantry. I've never read about the capabilities of he terminator armor but I somehow get the feeling they'd have trouble with a squad of roughnecks looking for a fight and carrying mini-nukes and coming down from orbit.

Destro_Yersul
2008-05-20, 12:52 PM
Terminators? Nah, they were built to withstand the constant radiation from reactor cores over exceptionally long periods of time. They can take a mini-nuke standing up. Not to mention the fact that each one is operated by a superhuman with hundreds of years of combat experience. AND they can teleport.

black dragoon
2008-05-20, 12:59 PM
Well....damme.
So much for that idea. Is it just me or is 40K so over powered at times it makes no sense?
This coming from the guy who is trying to justify mini-nuke wielding space marines...:smallwink:

warty goblin
2008-05-20, 12:59 PM
Darn, Iron man's out....
I'm tossing in on the original heavy powersuit and saying staship troopers mobile infantry. I've never read about the capabilities of he terminator armor but I somehow get the feeling they'd have trouble with a squad of roughnecks looking for a fight and carrying mini-nukes and coming down from orbit.

Not really. I mean sure, a whole squad vs. one guy in Tactical Dreadnaught armor might be a problem, but if you are throwing a full squad at one guy, you've already conceeded the superiority of the enemy's combat system right off the bat.

Squad vs. squad however it's gotta be the terminators. MI use what, heavy machine guns? I'll take the .75 cal explosive armor piercing rocket launchers any day, and this isn't even touching on the horror of the assualt cannons, to say nothing of the powerfist or the disgusting durability of terminators. Remember this stuff's designed to operate inside plasma shield casings, so I'm not even sure a nuke would do that much to it.

black dragoon
2008-05-20, 01:05 PM
I conceed. Man when will we get these niffty toys?:smallbiggrin:

Wizzardman
2008-05-20, 01:10 PM
Well....damme.
So much for that idea. Is it just me or is 40K so over powered at times it makes no sense?
This coming from the guy who is trying to justify mini-nuke wielding space marines...:smallwink:

That's... actually kinda the point of Warhammer 40k. Its deliberately designed to be so overpowered and Grimdarky its ridiculous, and thus campy and over-the-top. While its lost a lot of the campy flavor over time, it has retained its overpowered, over-the-top nature, and is thus filled with superpowered, super-ridiculous supermen.

Plus, they have had 28,000 years to work on this sort of thing. I mean, even if they do constantly forget how things work, they had a lot of time to invent overpowered technology in.

EvilDMMk3
2008-05-20, 01:11 PM
Man when will we get these niffty toys?In about 28 thousand years and after at least two near apocalypses, at least that is the START of the period of time when they get invented.

black dragoon
2008-05-20, 01:15 PM
So much for this crhistmas!:smallbiggrin:
Yeah I know it was supposed to be campy but somewhere along the way it seems to have lost that camp feel.

Emperor Ing
2008-05-20, 01:20 PM
I'm gonna say Samus Aran's Chozo battle suit. Okay, sure its not in mass production.
Perks:
Immunity to all fall damage
Built in arm cannon
Unlike other power armors, INCREASES the agility and speed of the wearer
Easily upgradeable
Powerful energy shielding recharged by what might as well be the souls of the dead. :smalltongue:
Skrew attack FTW.

Thiel
2008-05-20, 01:24 PM
MI use what, heavy machine guns? I'll take the .75 cal explosive armor piercing rocket launchers any day, and this isn't even touching on the horror of the assualt cannons, to say nothing of the powerfist or the disgusting durability of terminators. Remember this stuff's designed to operate inside plasma shield casings, so I'm not even sure a nuke would do that much to it.

The MI's use a large assortment of bombs (30 seconds bomb anyone?), missiles, flamers and PeeVees. At one point in the book Rico talks about how ridiculous it would be to bring a rifle to the modern battlefield.
I'll admit that they are less powerfull than WH40K but they do have one huge advantage and that's mobility. They routinely jumps over buildings and they can (If I remember correctly) achieve speeds in excess of 60 miles/hour.

Anyway, the MI exo suit gets points for being the bes thought out suit.

atom
2008-05-20, 01:26 PM
I vote for "Suits" from Alastair Reynolds' "Revelation space". Antimatter propulsion and weaponry, gamma-level subpersona included in the suit, reads your mind, behaves as a small spaceship/EVA suit/mobile weapons platform, can sustain 5g's of thrust, carries all sorts of beam weaponry as well, hud projected into your brain together with zoom capability and all sorts of scanners, can deform and heal itself... Plus, it can get you out of trouble even if you are out.

Really, seriously badass.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-20, 01:50 PM
The Powered Armor from the Empire of Man series.

MeklorIlavator
2008-05-20, 02:03 PM
I would vote for the Cardre power armor from the book In Fury Born, by David Weber. These things include active camo systems(degraded due to the suits power requirements), Direct neural linkage, drugs which cause the user to enter a state of heightened awareness, in addition to normal feature such as improved strength and firepower. In effect, this is an improved version of the stuff from the Honor Harrington series(same author).

Oh, and the armor in the Harrington series seem to be as vulnerable to hand held weapons fire as modern battle tanks, in that heavy antitank weaponry and high explosives can still damage it, but even then its not easy.

Edit: Any information on what the stuff from the Empire of Man can do?

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-20, 02:49 PM
I would vote for the Cardre power armor from the book In Fury Born, by David Weber. These things include active camo systems(degraded due to the suits power requirements), Direct neural linkage, drugs which cause the user to enter a state of heightened awareness, in addition to normal feature such as improved strength and firepower. In effect, this is an improved version of the stuff from the Honor Harrington series(same author).
I thought about the Cadre power armor and while its great, a lot of it is the Cadre themselves, not the armor. Like the drugs.


Oh, and the armor in the Harrington series seem to be as vulnerable to hand held weapons fire as modern battle tanks, in that heavy antitank weaponry and high explosives can still damage it, but even then its not easy.
Yeah, read the Shadow of Saganmi (sp?), they have a sweep combat drop scene in that.


Edit: Any information on what the stuff from the Empire of Man can do?

I have the books as audio books so it makes referencing a bitch. I just remember that it was really good.

Bayar
2008-05-20, 02:57 PM
I vote for Half Life's HEV suits. Because there are more than one that Gordon Freeman uses. And that they withstand a RPG with full shields.

Drascin
2008-05-20, 03:15 PM
I'm gonna say Samus Aran's Chozo battle suit. Okay, sure its not in mass production.
Perks:
Immunity to all fall damage
Built in arm cannon
Unlike other power armors, INCREASES the agility and speed of the wearer
Easily upgradeable
Powerful energy shielding recharged by what might as well be the souls of the dead. :smalltongue:
Skrew attack FTW.

Yeah, the Varia suit is one nasty piece of biomachinery indeed. Fast, resilient, agile, and overall, extremly versatile and good at adapting external machinery. It's like the ultimate solo powerarmor.

Also, for all the mentions of 40K, no mention to the Tau? Their power armors might not be so overpowered because they are not SMurfs and therefore, by GW official rules, they must be objectively worse, but Tau power armors just look much slicker and cooler in every sense, for the most part (let's obviate Apocalipsis suits here). The mimetic XV-15 "Shadow" and XV 25 "Eclipse", or the commanders' special XV-22 just look much, much better than anything the Imperium has, seem more maneuverable, and just more practical and generally nifty.

D_Lord
2008-05-20, 04:45 PM
Not really sure if these thing counts. It wasn't made to look like most powered armor, but it kind of acts like one at times. It does have a lot of power but no normal ranged weapons and an unusal power source. It main trick is one that is nasty. It can lift about 100 tons, but only has four limbs, two or all of them can be used as legs or legs and arms. But it's main trick is anything that hits it is amplified a million times and sent right back.

Frosty
2008-05-20, 04:57 PM
Gotta vote for the Chozo suit. Glad to see I wasn't the only one to think of it. Samus > Master Chief anyday. Not sure about Samus vs Termie. Termies are tough muther ******s.

Thiel
2008-05-20, 07:29 PM
Just to be different I'm going to nominate the powered armour from Arcanum.
Sure, you get a massive penalty if you should ever try to talk with anyone while wearing it, but damn do you look badass with that steam kettle strapped to your back.:smallbiggrin:

Worira
2008-05-20, 07:49 PM
So i finished Starship Troopers for the third time recently, and the following question came to mind: Which, on the whole, is the best mass production (or at least more than one-off prototype) single man powered armor/exosuit out there. The three examples that most readily present themselves are the following: of course an M.I. exo suit, what with it's mobility (powerful and agile jump packs) and fire power (Mini Nukes anyone?). Then we have the old standby of Space Marine Power Armor, good for both it's survivability (especially in Tac Dread models) and strength amplification (though whether this has more to do with the inhuman war gods inside those suits than the armor itself is unknown to me). Finally is a relative newcomer to the scene, the Mjolnir MK IV, worn by the Spartan II program graduates, including Master Chief. This one has the edge in terms of both size (not much larger than the wearer, as opposed to the other two) and strength multiplication (killing un-enhanced wearers, punching anti tank missiles etc.).

I'm sure there are others that I don't know of, but I would love to hear about them. Bring any others you know of to the table, and you thoughts as well, cheers! :smallsmile:

Wait, why did you mention strength amplification for Spartan suits and Power Armour, but not MI suits? The things are stated to be able to literally tear tanks apart.

Destro_Yersul
2008-05-20, 08:04 PM
Yeah, the Varia suit is one nasty piece of biomachinery indeed. Fast, resilient, agile, and overall, extremly versatile and good at adapting external machinery. It's like the ultimate solo powerarmor.

Also, for all the mentions of 40K, no mention to the Tau? Their power armors might not be so overpowered because they are not SMurfs and therefore, by GW official rules, they must be objectively worse, but Tau power armors just look much slicker and cooler in every sense, for the most part (let's obviate Apocalipsis suits here). The mimetic XV-15 "Shadow" and XV 25 "Eclipse", or the commanders' special XV-22 just look much, much better than anything the Imperium has, seem more maneuverable, and just more practical and generally nifty.

The problem being, of course, that Tau Battlesuits are not technically armour. They're piloted, yes, but more like a mech than armour. As for the Chozo suit, well.. there's only one.

ArtifexFelicis
2008-05-20, 08:08 PM
I haven't read the thread yet, but I would like to nominate two suits, but only one when they are combined.

First, Project Grizzly. (http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/15/project-grizzly-inventor-crafts-real-world-halo-suit-for-militar/) A real life anti-ballistic armor that can stop an elephant round. Wooo!

Also, now the Sacros Exoskeleton (http://www.engadget.com/2007/11/25/sarcos-military-exoskeleton-becomes-a-frightening-reality/) which is more like a traditional power suit.

Combine the two, I believe with some pricing they come out to about 4-5 thousand a pop. Pocket Change compared to what you would expect.

For Fictional, then the Tau Crisis Suit. It's better then SMurf armor in my opinion, looks cooler and IS in mass-production.

Foeofthelance
2008-05-20, 08:09 PM
I'm gonna vote for the ACS suits from the Legacy of the Aldenata series. Capable of handling weapons fired at fractions of c, they tend to take a pounding through out the series. Basic loadout as is a railgun, described as "Well, he wanted a ray gun but the best I could come up with was something that shot so fast it only looked that way." Also various grenades, optional loadouts, etc. Medical nanites, as well as full 360 degress awareness at all times. Equally capable of Hulk style jumps as well as mole like digging.

Survivable? They've been ground zero at anti-matter detonations, and kept the wearer alive. One of the last books ends with the main character, hip deep in the earth, calling down nukes on his position.

And then there is the case of Joe Buckley, who proved how useful the suits were:

1) Had a several hundred story megascraper come crashing down on top of him.
2) Blew off his hand with a grenade while trying to dig out. Suit kept him alive.
3) Eventually did manage to dig his way out.
4) Only to have a nuke go off right over his head...
5) Causing the rest of an alien battleship to crash down on top of him.

And they play iPods!

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-20, 08:18 PM
I haven't read the thread yet, but I would like to nominate two suits, but only one when they are combined.

First, Project Grizzly. (http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/15/project-grizzly-inventor-crafts-real-world-halo-suit-for-militar/) A real life anti-ballistic armor that can stop an elephant round. Wooo!
Stopping a round from penetrating isn't that difficult. Some Japanese firm makes suits that will stop a .50 caliber round fired from a Tac-50 from penetrating (it has a carbon nanoweave layer in between the inner and outer cloth layers, both of which are kinetic reactive). The only problems are KE transfer and that its not mass producable (they also cost over half a million each).


Also, now the Sacros Exoskeleton (http://www.engadget.com/2007/11/25/sarcos-military-exoskeleton-becomes-a-frightening-reality/) which is more like a traditional power suit.
That thing needs an extension cord to run, hence it is not battle field capable. We won't have powered armor until we get very, very, very good capacitors or batteries. Or some exotic power generation method (cold fusion for example)


Combine the two, I believe with some pricing they come out to about 4-5 thousand a pop. Pocket Change compared to what you would expect.
And it is worthless on a battlefield.


For Fictional, then the Tau Crisis Suit. It's better then SMurf armor in my opinion, looks cooler and IS in mass-production.
And Cadre armor is better than that. So is the Empire of Man stuff. Hell, the RMM power armor from the HH series is superior to SMurf armor.

Mr._Blinky
2008-05-20, 08:18 PM
The Fallout Power armor, just because it was there before everyone else.

Sorry, but Starship Troopers, Warhammer 40K, and I'm sure several others here are far older that Fallout.

GoC
2008-05-20, 08:20 PM
Remember this stuff's designed to operate inside plasma shield casings, so I'm not even sure a nuke would do that much to it.

I hope that's just an expression and you're not doing the classic (and foolish) thing of underestimating nukes...

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-20, 08:24 PM
I hope that's just an expression and you're not doing the classic (and foolish) thing of underestimating nukes...

Actually the radiation prolly wouldn't bother the terminator at much beyond point blank range.

What would get them is the shockwave, fireball, and plasma. In space the terminator would prolly be fine much over 10 meters. In atmosphere it would prolly be fine if it was outside the fireball.

ArtifexFelicis
2008-05-20, 08:31 PM
*snip*
That thing needs an extension cord to run, hence it is not battle field capable. We won't have powered armor until we get very, very, very good capacitors or batteries. Or some exotic power generation method (cold fusion for example)
*snip*
And it is worthless on a battlefield.
*snip*

For explanation then. The second suit I mentioned will eventually run on a battery backpack, much like SMurf armor. However, there is also a recharging mechanism in the legs of the exoskeleton that will constantly and continually recharge the battery on the back of the suit, making it last for a considerable length of time and without need to recharge every four or five hours. Combined with the fact that they're cheap, then it is very much awesome.

As well, it is far from useless on a battlefield. The obvious version, combining it with the Grizzly armor, creates a fairly hard to kill soldier in armor that cost about a quarter of his training. Give four guys the armor and they could carry a SAM missile launcher in about 20 minutes. They could carry and set up artillery cannons as well, or even just carrying supplies from one place to another carefully and through a battlefield with little to no chance of them getting hurt.

Also, it's real, giving it a bit more elevation in my eyes at least.:smalltongue:

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-20, 09:08 PM
For explanation then. The second suit I mentioned will eventually run on a battery backpack, much like SMurf armor. However, there is also a recharging mechanism in the legs of the exoskeleton that will constantly and continually recharge the battery on the back of the suit, making it last for a considerable length of time and without need to recharge every four or five hours. Combined with the fact that they're cheap, then it is very much awesome.
We don't have the battery tech now, and even with the recharging system (which really only extends the operation time by about 20%) we can't do it now. Power Armor would be great and the exoskeleton has a lot of potential uses but its no were near battlefield ready. Maybe in 20 or so years.


As well, it is far from useless on a battlefield. The obvious version, combining it with the Grizzly armor, creates a fairly hard to kill soldier in armor that cost about a quarter of his training.
Soldiers are already fairly difficult to kill and there are much easier ways to make them better armored than the Grizzly Suit. Kinetic Reactive uniforms are one example (the cloth stiffens when struck). Nanosuits if you really want to pay for it.


Give four guys the armor and they could carry a SAM missile launcher in about 20 minutes. They could carry and set up artillery cannons as well, or even just carrying supplies from one place to another carefully and through a battlefield with little to no chance of them getting hurt.
Again, there are easier ways to do all of that.


Also, it's real, giving it a bit more elevation in my eyes at least.:smalltongue:
Sure its real, doesn't mean its anywhere near battlefield ready yet. As I said, give it 10-20 years and we will see.

Mr. Scaly
2008-05-20, 09:16 PM
Since no one is going to say it, I'm giving Stilt Man's power armour an honourable mention.

BizzaroStormy
2008-05-20, 09:16 PM
I'm gonna say Samus Aran's Chozo battle suit. Okay, sure its not in mass production.
Perks:
Immunity to all fall damage
Built in arm cannon
Unlike other power armors, INCREASES the agility and speed of the wearer
Easily upgradeable
Powerful energy shielding recharged by what might as well be the souls of the dead. :smalltongue:
Skrew attack FTW.

Problem with the CBS is that you can trip on a pebble and lose everything but your basic arm cannon.

ArtifexFelicis
2008-05-20, 09:24 PM
Soldiers are already fairly difficult to kill and there are much easier ways to make them better armored than the Grizzly Suit. Kinetic Reactive uniforms are one example (the cloth stiffens when struck). Nanosuits if you really want to pay for it.

Just one last thing, the Grizzly, as its creator said, is much much much much cheaper then kinetic reactive suits. And also is extremely light for the amount of protection it gives. Sides, Half a million per suit for Kinetic Reactive. Or an entire regiment of Grizzly suits.

Sides, "Not battlefield worthy" yet I personally don't think holds much water in this thread :smalltongue:. Especially when talking about SMurfs, Starship Troopers, and Samus's oddly fragile armor.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-20, 09:47 PM
Just one last thing, the Grizzly, as its creator said, is much much much much cheaper then kinetic reactive suits. And also is extremely light for the amount of protection it gives. Sides, Half a million per suit for Kinetic Reactive. Or an entire regiment of Grizzly suits.
KE isn't that expensive actually. Search for Liquid Armor or Shear-thickening Fluid.

Whats expensive is the nanosuit.


Sides, "Not battlefield worthy" yet I personally don't think holds much water in this thread :smalltongue:. Especially when talking about SMurfs, Starship Troopers, and Samus's oddly fragile armor.
Those are all works of fiction.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-20, 09:52 PM
Just one last thing, the Grizzly, as its creator said, is much much much much cheaper then kinetic reactive suits. And also is extremely light for the amount of protection it gives. Sides, Half a million per suit for Kinetic Reactive. Or an entire regiment of Grizzly suits.
KE isn't that expensive actually. Search for Liquid Armor or Shear-thickening Fluid.

Whats expensive is the nanosuit.


Sides, "Not battlefield worthy" yet I personally don't think holds much water in this thread :smalltongue:. Especially when talking about SMurfs, Starship Troopers, and Samus's oddly fragile armor.
Those are all works of fiction.

pincushionman
2008-05-20, 09:54 PM
The problem being, of course, that <insert specific thing> are not technically armour. They're piloted, yes, but more like a mech than armour...
So, where is the line drawn between the two?

Destro_Yersul
2008-05-20, 11:07 PM
The point at which the suit becomes too large to fit your arms into the suits arms and your legs into the suits legs at the same time and still be able to see out the head area.

The Boyce
2008-05-21, 01:19 AM
Protoss dragoon exoskeletons anyone?

LBO
2008-05-21, 02:55 AM
I'm going with the book MI suits, for mobility, tactical flexibility and variable loadout.

In a straight one-on-one fight, or in a crazy headon assault, they may not quite have the durability of a Terminator (although they're definitely tough), but overall they're a much more useful suit. You could take a world with nothing but a few hundred MI. A few hundred Terminators would just get bored after trudging around looking for someone to kill for a year or two.

MI are cool because they were actually conceived as a device to win wars, rather than to break the badass scale.

Also, they bounce. How funky is that?

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-21, 03:08 AM
I'm going with the book MI suits, for mobility, tactical flexibility and variable loadout.

In a straight one-on-one fight, or in a crazy headon assault, they may not quite have the durability of a Terminator (although they're definitely tough), but overall they're a much more useful suit. You could take a world with nothing but a few hundred MI. A few hundred Terminators would just get bored after trudging around looking for someone to kill for a year or two.

MI are cool because they were actually conceived as a device to win wars, rather than to break the badass scale.

Also, they bounce. How funky is that?

Cadre are the same way. They even have "the bounce", just not quite as good. They can only go 40 or so meters in a hop. I would actually go so far as to say that the Cadre (and regular Imperial Wasps) are actually "better" soliders. I don't think a regular Wasp could take out an MI but I also don't think a regular Ranger could take out a Tank. Nuclear Hand Grenades aren't that great of an idea. And while the MI are good as a planetary assault force they can't clear buildings or selectively target their force as effectively as the other forces.

And the situations in which "tanks" are needed and were the MI really shine aren't ones where any kind of infantry concept is really that good. The Cadre/Wasps just call in some assault shuttle support and hit each MI with a kiloton range HVW. Or drop snow flake clusters on the massed enemy force. Or just call in the navy to SLAM the planet or use c-fractional strikes.

LBO
2008-05-21, 03:14 AM
I'm posting my opinion on what's the funkiest power armour. I'm really not interested in your insipid fanboying. Not every thread needs to be a vs thread, jeez.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-21, 03:50 AM
I'm posting my opinion on what's the funkiest power armour.
Actually the title says "best" not funkiest. "Best" is a quality that is generally derived at by comparing various objects. MI may be the best armor at planetary assaults but it is not necessarily the "best" at filling its assigned battlefield role. Seeing as MI stands for Mobile Infantry it's perfectly reasonable to point out that said armor is not very good at fulfilling the role of Infantry and provide examples that fulfill that role more effectively.

You said that the MI are cool because they were conceived of as a device to win wars. While that may be true it is perfectly reasonable to point out that some other force was conceived of as a device to win wars and is actually better at it than the MI. The fact that MI are strong and effective is not something I am disputing. What I am disputing is the implied implication that other forces weren't conceived of as part of a combined arms plan to win wars and that the MI's plan to win wars is the most effective one.


I'm really not interested in your insipid fanboying.
Flame much? I'm not being "insipid" or "fanboying"


Not every thread needs to be a vs thread, jeez.
Do you see the word Best in the title? Best is a comparison of multiple things that are made to achieve the same goal to see which is most effective at its goal. What is a vs. thread? A comparison of multiple people or forces to see which is more effective and hence better than the other.

Quezovercoatl
2008-05-21, 04:04 AM
I would like to nominate the Phase Suits from the Hyperion Cantos by Dan Simmons, on the basis that: the ability to move at several thousand times the speed of light > everything else mentioned so far.

Obrysii
2008-05-21, 06:28 AM
I am not sure if it's seen any real action in any of the books, but Hutt Battle Armor (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hutt_Battle_Armor) is pretty cool. It vastly increases strength, dexterity, speed, and is heavily loaded with weapons.

Thiel
2008-05-21, 06:29 AM
I would like to nominate the Phase Suits from the Hyperion Cantos by Dan Simmons, on the basis that: the ability to move at several thousand times the speed of light > everything else mentioned so far.

How so? That ability seems to be of rather limited utility to me. Sure, it can move really, really, really fast, but I must say that the ability to circumnavigate the globe faster than the human eye can see seems to be a rather pointless ability. Think about what would happen if you happened to hit something. (Including the atmosphere.)

black dragoon
2008-05-21, 07:15 AM
That's the point moving that fast you light the air you travel through on fire and if it's durable enough it can just ram into you and poof you're vaporized.
MI serve their role pretty well really. They were designed to work in conjunction with multiple different platforms the typical battle plan if I remember right went as follows.
- Navy pulls into a low orbit over planet.
- Navy proceeds to bomb/laze anything planetside that is of moderate importance and is on the surface.
-in the middle of all this MI along with squads of special forces are dropped planetside using the chaos to safely land(relative).
- MI proceeds to sweep area for anything bigger than a poodle and destroy AA enplacments. They also nuke any hives and mop up ground forces.
mind you it's been awhile since I've read the book so that's a rough guess of how it operates.

Quezovercoatl
2008-05-21, 10:01 AM
You seem to have misunderstood. Phase Suits do not simply make you run faster; they screw around with time so that it moves much faster for the user. It doesn’t just speed up your movement but also your perception and reaction. Additionally it seems to have some mechanism to get around the whole hitting the air thing the books have not shone any massive fire balls or even any turbulence to speak of.

black dragoon
2008-05-21, 10:04 AM
Well the increased reaction thing would make sense I mean reletivity would kick in and time would seem to stand still for the wearer. That's odd that there is turbulence effect considered your moving faster than light itself.

Thiel
2008-05-21, 10:47 AM
You seem to have misunderstood. Phase Suits do not simply make you run faster; they screw around with time so that it moves much faster for the user. It doesn’t just speed up your movement but also your perception and reaction. Additionally it seems to have some mechanism to get around the whole hitting the air thing the books have not shone any massive fire balls or even any turbulence to speak of.

Actually, judging by the name I'd guess that they use a kind of teleportation. That would explain the lack of fireballs and it would also reduce turbulence tremendously. However, if that's how they do it then it can't be relativity that makes time slow down for them since, technically, they don't move.

black dragoon
2008-05-21, 12:12 PM
True, let's see phase suit.....
mabye they are moving at tremendous speed but not quite in our frame of reference that also allows them to move faster than light as well.

Thiel
2008-05-21, 12:36 PM
I am not sure if it's seen any real action in any of the books, but Hutt Battle Armor (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hutt_Battle_Armor) is pretty cool. It vastly increases strength, dexterity, speed, and is heavily loaded with weapons.
No matter how good and badass they make their armour the Hutts'll still loose if matched against any of the other suits mentioned in this thread, because... Well... they're basically just gigantic slugs.


True, let's see phase suit.....
mabye they are moving at tremendous speed but not quite in our frame of reference that also allows them to move faster than light as well.

Wouldn't that make it kinda hard to fight anyone in our frame of reference?

black dragoon
2008-05-21, 12:49 PM
True but if it was a partial phasing(half in,half out)it would allow for some interaction that or flicks between the two as needed. phase out for high speed manuvers,phase in to kick the crap out of something.I can't find any info on the things so I'm reall just shooting at clouds at the moment.

Thiel
2008-05-21, 01:10 PM
Based on the Wikipedia article I believe teleportation is the most probable solution, since all the other forms of FTL travel seems to kill all the humans in the vicinity.

Destro_Yersul
2008-05-21, 01:11 PM
Were those like the thing that corporal guy wore when (spoileriffic) he was fighting the Shrike?(no longer spoileriffic) Because I seem to remember those being amazing. Yeah, he was a soldier and had training, but that only made it more awesome.

black dragoon
2008-05-21, 01:14 PM
:smallbiggrin:I'm gonna have to read this thing. *scribbles on long sheet of paper* right-o! I can see an interesting matchup here. Phase suit Vs. Termies! Ready Fight!

Deadmeat.GW
2008-05-21, 03:28 PM
Terminators is the best if you are in enclosed spaces, anywhere else...their lack of movement is going to cost them.

It is why the Terminator suits were not given to all the space marines.

Thiel
2008-05-21, 03:51 PM
The more I hear about this Terminator suit the less I like it. As far as I can see it has about as much tactical flexibility as a bronze statue.

LBO
2008-05-21, 04:02 PM
Absolutely. But you hit someone with a bronze statue, and he's going to feel it.

EvilDMMk3
2008-05-21, 04:11 PM
The more I hear about this Terminator suit the less I like it. As far as I can see it has about as much tactical flexibility as a bronze statue.

In the correct situations, mostly for killing really big stuff or tight, close quarters fighting (such as cities or space hulks), it is almost unbeatable, also adding in that it is used solely by the most veteran super soldiers around and some Inquisitors, but there are places where they really are vulnerable.

Drascin
2008-05-21, 04:15 PM
Absolutely. But you hit someone with a bronze statue, and he's going to feel it.

Indeed. Termies are less "infantry" and more "small tanks", and should be considered accordingly. They are not mobile or quick - that's the scouts and standard marines' job. What a Terminator does is mostly get deployed in the thick of things via orbital pod, and start killing everything that moves and a large chunk of what doesn't. So they're designed mainly with the objective of letting their occupants survive that, instead of trying to be actual tactic powerarmors.

To put it one way, they'e not designed to be humans - they're designed to be uber-turtles with brutal close-quarters power.

Indon
2008-05-21, 05:05 PM
Wouldn't that make it kinda hard to fight anyone in our frame of reference?

No. It basically means they don't move unless you hit them, and when you do they die.

They don't follow the laws of physics as we know them, either: they're powered by what is basically divine power (the "void between" or whatever it's called), and is supposedly a form of transcendent superscience along the subjugating-the-universe-to-your-whim level of power.

Hyperion, behind the scenes, is basically about:
The conflict of transcendent god-entites warring between each other in the past over how many possible futures each gets to dominate.

So there's a bit of deus ex machina.

Thiel
2008-05-21, 06:36 PM
No. It basically means they don't move unless you hit them, and when you do they die.

They don't follow the laws of physics as we know them, either: they're powered by what is basically divine power (the "void between" or whatever it's called), and is supposedly a form of transcendent superscience along the subjugating-the-universe-to-your-whim level of power.

Hyperion, behind the scenes, is basically about:
The conflict of transcendent god-entites warring between each other in the past over how many possible futures each gets to dominate.

So there's a bit of deus ex machina.

I just realised another thing. These guys have to be very careful not to slip of whatever planet they're on.


In the correct situations, mostly for killing really big stuff or tight, close quarters fighting (such as cities or space hulks), it is almost unbeatable, also adding in that it is used solely by the most veteran super soldiers around and some Inquisitors, but there are places where they really are vulnerable.

So unless you can force your opponent to engage you, you've just wasted truckload of resources on a decoration.

This joke keeps popping up when I think about them.
"Oh no, a Dwarven Defender, we must flee! Quickly, walk briskly!"

EvilDMMk3
2008-05-21, 06:51 PM
This joke keeps popping up when I think about them.
"Oh no, a Dwarven Defender, we must flee! Quickly, walk briskly!"

Yes, rather like the Dwarven Defneder. Save the mentality really is "Oh no, Terminators! We cannot flee this heavy barricaded building, for we require it! We must fight them as they come closer down the corridors to destroy this objective we are defending."

Just like with Dwarven Defneders with mentality is more like "Oh no, a Dwarven Defender. And he is standing right in the place we need to send the troops through."

Seriously, if they get up close (deploy into cramped conditions, teleport or quite possibly use a Land Raider APC/Heavy battle tank) and they WILL KILL. They must never, however, be expected to schlep across a battlefield.

Horses for courses.

LBO
2008-05-21, 07:01 PM
So unless you can force your opponent to engage you, you've just wasted truckload of resources on a decoration.
Yeah. Just like all warfare.

EvilDMMk3
2008-05-21, 07:07 PM
Yeah. Just like all warfare.

Sorry, wrong. Often causing the enemy to fail to engage you is the best possible solution.

tyckspoon
2008-05-21, 07:12 PM
Yes, rather like the Dwarven Defneder. Save the mentality really is "Oh no, Terminators! We cannot flee this heavy barricaded building, for we require it! We must fight them as they come closer down the corridors to destroy this objective we are defending."

Just like with Dwarven Defneders with mentality is more like "Oh no, a Dwarven Defender. And he is standing right in the place we need to send the troops through."


Well, there's that, and there's Terminators using bolters, missile launchers, and the other various tools of sci-fi warfare instead of the archaic melee weapon the Dwarven Defender is probably carrying. The Terminators can affect an area much greater than their immediate presence. That said, Terminator Assault squads are silly and basically exist because lightning claws and thunder hammers are cool.

LBO
2008-05-21, 07:14 PM
Sorry, wrong. Often causing the enemy to fail to engage you is the best possible solution.
Best solution, yes. Best use out of hardware bought, no. Read the context again.

(yeah yeah, deterrents, blah blah...)

Nonanonymous
2008-05-21, 07:16 PM
As for the Chozo suit, well.. there's only one.

Now, perhaps, but there's plenty of lore that suggests that the Chozo once mass-produced them, and it makes all the compatible upgrade units scattered across the galaxy make a lot more sense if you look at it that way.

EvilDMMk3
2008-05-21, 07:18 PM
Best solution, yes. Best value for hardware bought, no. Read the context again.Not to derail the thread but if the enemy fails to engage you run no risk of loosing any of that gear and it is all ready to use again, seeing as you where going to fight anyway deployment is an irrelevance (same cost in both scenarios) and you save quite a bit of cash as you use nothing up.

Terminators are not disposable items. You can use them more than once.

LBO
2008-05-21, 07:32 PM
Not to derail the thread but if the enemy fails to engage you run no risk of loosing any of that gear and it is all ready to use again, seeing as you where going to fight anyway deployment is an irrelevance (same cost in both scenarios) and you save quite a bit of cash as you use nothing up.

Terminators are not disposable items. You can use them more than once.
Context, dude... I'm not saying termies are useless overall, or anything about disposability. My point is that unless there is an opportunity to bring a Terminator suit to bear, it's wasted, as with any weapon (unless it's a deterrent, which it never is in 40k).

Original point was "lol terminators are useless outside of certain combat circumstances", so I replied with "so's all military hardware"... and now you're lecturing me on avoiding war, which is kind of irrelevant. :smallconfused: You're not wrong on any point, it's just... the points are taking what I said completely out of context.

Something we can agree on: Terminators are badass for space hulks, y/n?

EvilDMMk3
2008-05-21, 07:35 PM
Something we can agree on: Terminators are badass for space hulks, y/n?

Y

Suplimentry: Terminators are also badass in buildings, built up areas and for storming breaches via teleport. y/n?

LBO
2008-05-21, 07:36 PM
Y.

"They do not have a prayer..." :smallbiggrin:

Eita
2008-05-21, 07:36 PM
Best powered armor? Space Marine Assault Armor, just throw out the stupid doctrine and you have tons of win.

Take these guys (http://www.quindia.com/graphics/galleryfist10.jpg), but give them the stuff these guys (http://www.leisuregames.com/acatalog/space_marines_devastator_squad.jpg) have.

Although, a Dreadnought would be awesome, but I don't think it qualifies.

Nonanonymous
2008-05-21, 07:37 PM
To put it one way, they'e not designed to be humans - they're designed to be uber-turtles with brutal close-quarters power.

If they're über-turtles, wouldn't that mean that they're exceptionally good swimmers but horrendously exposed and sluggish on land?:smalltongue:

LBO
2008-05-21, 07:40 PM
If they're über-turtles, wouldn't that mean that they're exceptionally good swimmers but horrendously exposed and sluggish on land?:smalltongue:
Uber-tortoises would be better (and since Americans seem to like calling tortoises turtles, that might be what was meant). They're slow, tough and implacable. They might take a long time going about it, but when they eventually get there, it doesn't matter who you are, they will f your s up.

Case in point. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ul0gfCyeiyM) You do not screw with a tortoise.

EvilDMMk3
2008-05-21, 07:42 PM
Take these guys (http://www.quindia.com/graphics/galleryfist10.jpg), but give them the stuff these guys (http://www.leisuregames.com/acatalog/space_marines_devastator_squad.jpg) have.

Jump-pack devastators...

My awesome filter just asploded.

LBO
2008-05-21, 07:44 PM
You do not screw with a tortoise.

COROLLARY TO LBO'S LAW OF TORTOISE: They are both vulnerable to one thing and one thing only. Here it is (http://tsoalr.com/view.php?date=2005-04-11).

Eita
2008-05-21, 09:02 PM
Oh Terminator tipping. Do you ever get boring?

Seriously though, jump-pack devastators would totally work. I mean really, you just know that somewhere there's a chapter doing it. Speaking of which... * makes mental note to ask local game shop if I could enter those in a tournament*

SolkaTruesilver
2008-05-21, 11:02 PM
Actually the title says "best" not funkiest. "Best" is a quality that is generally derived at by comparing various objects. MI may be the best armor at planetary assaults but it is not necessarily the "best" at filling its assigned battlefield role. Seeing as MI stands for Mobile Infantry it's perfectly reasonable to point out that said armor is not very good at fulfilling the role of Infantry and provide examples that fulfill that role more effectively.

You said that the MI are cool because they were conceived of as a device to win wars. While that may be true it is perfectly reasonable to point out that some other force was conceived of as a device to win wars and is actually better at it than the MI. The fact that MI are strong and effective is not something I am disputing. What I am disputing is the implied implication that other forces weren't conceived of as part of a combined arms plan to win wars and that the MI's plan to win wars is the most effective one.



Could you please state the "role of the Infantry", so I may refute your allegations?

(what's a cadre/wasp/ranger?)

Nerd-o-rama
2008-05-21, 11:39 PM
Kira Yamato.

Now wait, that was plot armor.

I need to stop stealing jokes from 4chan

black dragoon
2008-05-22, 07:13 AM
NEver heard of that one Nerd-o-rama. What's it look like I learn more by visual qeues than by the written word.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-22, 03:04 PM
Could you please state the "role of the Infantry", so I may refute your allegations?
Infantry are soldiers who fight primarily with small arms but are trained to use anything from their bare hands to missile systems in order to neutralize and kill the enemy in close personal combat. This fundamental principle is evidenced by the Infantryman's Creed of the United States Marine Corps: "To locate, close with, and destroy the enemy by fire and maneuver; and to repel the enemy's assault by fire and close combat."

That's what wikipedia says.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infantry

In terms of asymmetric warfare and modern war (where Urban combat is big) I define Infantry as any force that can clear a building without destroying said building and without killing noncombatants in said building.

The MI meet neither definition. They aren't infantry. They are a combination of infantry, armor, and artillery. That's fine. What it fails to account for are the ways that other forces can accomplish those goals better.

Air power makes armor and artillery obsolete in future combat (especially in the MI timeframe). An air frame will always be faster, has a lot more room to maneuver, can be based farther away, and can deliver larger payloads with more precision.

It gets worse in Sci-Fi with space navies and the like. Kinetic Interdiction Strikes make large scale, open ground, warfare impossible. So you end up with ground combat being confined to urban environments. Or the worst possible location for Mobile Infantry. MI have a role and are very effective at said role, but that role is not as an infantry force.


(what's a cadre/wasp/ranger?)
The Cadre and Wasps are two forces from the book In Fury Born. The Wasps are the regular forces and the Cadre are the best of the best (think Imperial Guard vs. Space Marines but the Wasps are much better than IG's). The Rangers reference was to regular U.S. Army Rangers.

SolkaTruesilver
2008-05-22, 07:52 PM
The MI would be able to get into buildings and clean it with minimum civilian losses, I am sure of it.

It would not be hard for their squads to get equipped with small arms. They are equipped (and trained) with whatever weaponry is necessary for the mission. They were armed with mini-nukes when the mission necessitated large structural damage but small civilian casulties.

As for the description you gave, the MI wouldn't have ANY problem with closing on the ennemy and engaging them for whatever objectives is necessitated by the Sky Marshal.

The MI is created to inflict as much violent as required. They can defend themselves against muggers without doing any permanent damage, but they can strike and destroy on a quasi-large scale, hold ground and free prisonners.

In short, anything that requires something ELSE than aerial bombardment/artillery fire.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-22, 08:04 PM
The MI would be able to get into buildings and clean it with minimum civilian losses, I am sure of it.
They are larger than most of the entrances and rooms in the buildings.


It would not be hard for their squads to get equipped with small arms. They are equipped (and trained) with whatever weaponry is necessary for the mission. They were armed with mini-nukes when the mission necessitated large structural damage but small civilian casulties.
Nukes do not cause small civilian casualties.


As for the description you gave, the MI wouldn't have ANY problem with closing on the ennemy and engaging them for whatever objectives is necessitated by the Sky Marshal.
They consider a mile apart to be close enough to support each other, that isn't close combat.


The MI is created to inflict as much violent as required. They can defend themselves against muggers without doing any permanent damage, but they can strike and destroy on a quasi-large scale, hold ground and free prisonners.
All but the last are things that can be accomplished easier and safer without infantry forces.


In short, anything that requires something ELSE than aerial bombardment/artillery fire.
Sure, and with those 2 things you don't need tanks. Or the ability for your infantry to easily cross a continent.

SolkaTruesilver
2008-05-22, 08:29 PM
1. They are larger than most of the entrances and rooms in the buildings.
2. Nukes do not cause small civilian casualties.
3. They consider a mile apart to be close enough to support each other, that isn't close combat.
4. All but the last are things that can be accomplished easier and safer without infantry forces.
5. Sure, and with those 2 things you don't need tanks. Or the ability for your infantry to easily cross a continent.

1. Not true. In the training sequence (the court martial), there is one of them in armored suit that came carrying witnesses in the Company HQ. the Scout suit is also smaller (and quicker) than the regular Marauder.

2. Mini-nukes. Ennough to blow up a large building (like a water purifying plant). They did not wanted to blow up the whole city, which a true nuke would easily do.

3. On open ground, while wanting to fight a massive ennemy, using all their regular weaponry. When they go underground, they are able to fight the bugs in close-quarter, but they restrain using their heavy weaponry.

4. How do you hold ground with aviation? or Armors? You can't, you need the infantry. When I said "destroy on a large scale", I was talking, with other means than mere bombardment.

5. I don't get you..? They don't need to easily cross continent, nor do they use tank. Why have you brough tanks into it?

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-22, 08:46 PM
1. Not true. In the training sequence (the court martial), there is one of them in armored suit that came carrying witnesses in the Company HQ. the Scout suit is also smaller (and quicker) than the regular Marauder.
And we don't know the size of the Company HQ, considering that it regularly deals with MI in armor it may well be larger than normal.


2. Mini-nukes. Ennough to blow up a large building (like a water purifying plant). They did not wanted to blow up the whole city, which a true nuke would easily do.
Someone previously stated enough to take out everything in a 1 mile radius.


3. On open ground, while wanting to fight a massive ennemy, using all their regular weaponry. When they go underground, they are able to fight the bugs in close-quarter, but they restrain using their heavy weaponry.
Forgot about that.


4. How do you hold ground with aviation? or Armors? You can't, you need the infantry. When I said "destroy on a large scale", I was talking, with other means than mere bombardment.
You hold ground by denying it to your enemy. Kinetic Interdiction Strikes that can target and take out any force entering that area are more effective than infantry or armor. As for destroy on a large scale, there is no better way than kinetic strikes. You don't need a means for ground forces to do it because anything worth destroying on a major scale can be taken out quicker, faster, and cheaper with air power.


5. I don't get you..? They don't need to easily cross continent, nor do they use tank. Why have you brough tanks into it?
They fill the role of tanks. The MI are not infantry, they are armor, artillery, and infantry all at once. With infantry being a distinct last.

----
My point is that in any setting with interstellar travel done by space going vessels ground forces have 1 real battle field and its an Urban one. The only reason not to use Kinetic Interdiction Strikes is because of non combatant casualties or you want to capture a location intact. That means you don't use KEW on cities. So you need infantry that can go into a clear out a city building by building. Or go into a building/base/bunker and capture it intact.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-05-23, 09:12 AM
NEver heard of that one Nerd-o-rama. What's it look like I learn more by visual qeues than by the written word.Plot armor (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlotArmor) is what protects the protagonists or other important characters in a series from dying when in the real world, they would, particularly in hero-flavored No One Could Survive That (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NoOneCouldSurviveThat) situations. Kira "Jesus" Yamato of a Japanese television show called Gundam SEED is famous, even among people like me who have never watched Gundam SEED, for taking a mecha-sized lightsaber through his cockpit and being perfectly fine at the end of the episode.

Basically, I was making a crappy joke by "misreading" the word "powered" and referencing an unrelated bit of pop-culture, a joke that has gotten all the crappier now that I've explained it.

black dragoon
2008-05-25, 12:33 PM
Alright, sorry about that have a tendency to take things literally. MI serve their purpose well. For a war against an enemy that uses mass tactics and swarm over your lighter armored men they serve very well and can be deployed to an area that needs to be thoroughly cleaned out lest you suffer even more damage. IN short MI are Point assault units(is that a real term?)

Vael Nir
2008-05-25, 04:49 PM
I vote for "Suits" from Alastair Reynolds' "Revelation space". Antimatter propulsion and weaponry, gamma-level subpersona included in the suit, reads your mind, behaves as a small spaceship/EVA suit/mobile weapons platform, can sustain 5g's of thrust, carries all sorts of beam weaponry as well, hud projected into your brain together with zoom capability and all sorts of scanners, can deform and heal itself... Plus, it can get you out of trouble even if you are out.

Really, seriously badass.

I was going to mention these as well. I like these because Reynold doesn't hand-wave accelaration and G-forces in space, and they still manage to be tremendously bad-ass without killing their human occupant.

Plus, escalation protocols and autonomous defence is really cool. :smallsmile:

Eita
2008-05-25, 07:34 PM
You hold ground by denying it to your enemy. Kinetic Interdiction Strikes that can target and take out any force entering that area are more effective than infantry or armor. As for destroy on a large scale, there is no better way than kinetic strikes. You don't need a means for ground forces to do it because anything worth destroying on a major scale can be taken out quicker, faster, and cheaper with air power.

Lolwut? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infantry#Missions)

Some choice quotes:


It is the infantry which ultimately decides whether ground is held or taken, and it is the presence of infantry that assures control of territory.


Defense operations are the natural counter to attacks, in which the mission is to hold an objective and defeat enemy forces attempting to dislodge the defender. Defensive posture offers many advantages to the infantry, including the ability to use terrain and constructed fortifications to advantage and the reduced exposure to enemy fire compared with advancing forces. Effective defense relies on minimizing losses to enemy fire, breaking the enemy's cohesion before their advance is completed, and preventing enemy penetration of defensive positions.

black dragoon
2008-05-26, 10:38 AM
I state once more the original power armors (MI) were designed to attack areas that needed to be kept in one piece or were to hard to hit from space they were strategicly deployed and used to secure positions. That is an effective infantry darnnint!

warty goblin
2008-05-26, 11:46 AM
Lolwut? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infantry#Missions)

Some choice quotes:

That's the case with current warfare yes, but space power is not analagous to air power in terms of stategic and logistical uses. Aircraft after all burn large amounts of fuel just to stay in position, and thus tend to have lower endurance and higher operating costs than ground vehicles and troops. A spacecraft in orbit however burns no energy beyond life support.

Now in the context of a planetary invasion, the attacker's supply lines are going, at least initially, to run through the planet's orbitals. This means that they will already have spacecraft in orbit before a ground invasion even becomes anything more than a high risk of getting one's army stranded. Add to this the reality that the ground forces will in fact be more expensive to supply than the orbital ones (since you have to ferry goods through the atmosphere, and likely to more spread out locations), and orbital fire starts to look very attractive, since it allows you to attack ground targets cheaply (cheaper than using infantry anyways), at low risk and with little to no chancec of your bombardment being intercepted.

This is radically different from calling in air support, since doing that incurs an additional, and significant, operating cost. The starship is already in position and operating just to keep the ground troops in food and water, and dropping stuff out of the hatch is hardly a vast expendature of munitions and manpower.

SolkaTruesilver
2008-05-26, 12:07 PM
the best Powdered armor was Gaara's sand armor!

black dragoon
2008-05-26, 12:43 PM
I've alraedy said this but here it goes again. MI were not traditional infantry. They were used for strategic strikes or for for attacking well entrenched forces. The bugs for example, or the skinnies AA emplacments which made it hard to attack from orbit since as soon as you pulled in you were likley blasted from out of the sky.

warty goblin
2008-05-26, 01:08 PM
I've alraedy said this but here it goes again. MI were not traditional infantry. They were used for strategic strikes or for for attacking well entrenched forces. The bugs for example, or the skinnies AA emplacments which made it hard to attack from orbit since as soon as you pulled in you were likley blasted from out of the sky.


I state once more the original power armors (MI) were designed to attack areas that needed to be kept in one piece or were to hard to hit from space they were strategicly deployed and used to secure positions. That is an effective infantry darnnint!

Interesting contrast these two statements.

Also note that in case of a well defended position capable of attacking warships in orbit, you simply fire from a radically higher orbit. Also, how exactly are you supposed to land troops when the enemy can blow up your ships in high orbit? Land them half a planet away, then hope like hell nobody notices them until they reach the objective, and they don't need resupply or support or anything?

black dragoon
2008-05-26, 01:34 PM
Orbital Defense networks don't really care about altitude, You have to remember two very important facts. Something the size of battleship is way bigger than any powred armor and aa system designed to hit a ship will have trouble hitting a smaller faster moving target especially a target that is surrounded by a cloud of debris that screw with radar. And yeah normally if your moving troops into defended areas you hope like hell they don't see you to soon.

Thiel
2008-05-26, 04:12 PM
Orbital Defense networks don't really care about altitude
Wrong. Unlike the attacker it has to use powered projectiles since said projectiles will be fighting against the planet's gravity.


You have to remember two very important facts. Something the size of battleship is way bigger than any powred armor and aa system designed to hit a ship will have trouble hitting a smaller faster moving target especially a target that is surrounded by a cloud of debris that screw with radar.
While this is true, it doesn't answer the question of how you're going to keep your troops supplied with food and ammunition. And what's worse is that if the troops fail to take the planet getting them out will be the next best thing to impossible. After all, if you can build something that can shoot down large ships in orbit, you should be able to build something capable of taking down smallcrafts.
[/Quote]And yeah normally if your moving troops into defended areas you hope like hell they don't see you to soon.[/QUOTE]
But unlike current day warfare, getting spotted before you get there doesn't necessarily mean that you'll be turned into Swiss cheese by enemy fire.

warty goblin
2008-05-26, 04:42 PM
And yeah normally if your moving troops into defended areas you hope like hell they don't see you to soon.
But unlike current day warfare, getting spotted before you get there doesn't necessarily mean that you'll be turned into Swiss cheese by enemy fire.
Although one is forced to wonder what sort of enemy could build a gun capable of blowing warships out of orbit, but can't create a weapon capable of pulping a guy in power armor , or would fail to put such weaponry around said exo-atmospheric ground based cannons.

Stormthorn
2008-05-26, 06:20 PM
Some of the armor from Starcraft is pretty bombin.

The best one is that forklift/suit that Ripley uses to fight the Alien Queen. Granted, it would have to come with a Ripley, but throught he micacle of cloning she could be mass produced too.

LBO
2008-05-26, 06:30 PM
Some of the armor from 40k is pretty bombin, even with all the skulls filed off.
Fixed that for you.

Stormthorn
2008-05-26, 07:54 PM
Really? Did ya? :smallconfused:
Cuz i wasnt talkin about the starcraft SMs. I was talkin about the protos zels and the terran Ghosts. I didnt see any Ghosts last time i looked through a warhammer 40k codex. (not to mention the appearance differances of the SC marines in art compared to those of the Warhammer variety) I would apreciate it if you didnt try to twist my comments to support your game of choice in the future.:smallmad:

Eita
2008-05-26, 08:27 PM
StarCraft is 40k lite. Seriously, it might as well be a direct homage.

Zerg = Tyranids

Protoss = Mix of Eldar and Tau

Terrans = Do I have to answer this?

kpenguin
2008-05-26, 08:43 PM
Terrans = Do I have to answer this?

Necrons right?:smalltongue:

Wizzardman
2008-05-26, 09:01 PM
Really? Did ya? :smallconfused:
Cuz i wasnt talkin about the starcraft SMs. I was talkin about the protos zels and the terran Ghosts. I didnt see any Ghosts last time i looked through a warhammer 40k codex. (not to mention the appearance differances of the SC marines in art compared to those of the Warhammer variety) I would apreciate it if you didnt try to twist my comments to support your game of choice in the future.:smallmad:

Sorry, but no supporting of specific games is occurring. Warcraft and Starcraft were both based off of Warhammer or Warhammer 40k--Warcraft in particular was originally slated to be Warhammer the Strategy Game if GW hadn't backed out at the last moment.

Additionally: Ghosts = Inquisitors, who often also use power armor, are frequently psychic, and tend to sneak around. They also contain some stuff from the various assassins. :smalltongue:

Stormthorn
2008-05-26, 09:52 PM
Protos=Eldar + tau?

I can perhaps see the elder thing at an extreme stretch (really extreme), but the Tau are newer than the Pro.

I grant that 40k came before starcraft, but the closest similarities stop after "both types of marines have similar shoulder pads" and "zerglings look like the tyranid gaunts".

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8f/Zealot_%28StarCraft%29.png
Does that look like an Eldar to you?


Eldar. I suppose when it comes down to it then the Eldar where invented by Tolkien (why took the name from norse mythology) and Heinlein invented the Space Marines.

Deadmeat.GW
2008-05-27, 12:09 AM
The Protoss are kinda based on Eldar for all bar the actually look of the things inside the armour.

Psychic race, tick.

Extremely fast ground movement, tick.

Unexplicable like of melee combat and good at it too, tick.

Extremely skilled with energy weapons, tick.

Teleportation and gate technology, tick.

There are difference but the similarities are quite obvious.

Stormthorn
2008-05-27, 01:12 AM
The Protoss are kinda based on Eldar for all bar the actually look of the things inside the armour.

Psychic race, tick.

Extremely fast ground movement, tick.

Unexplicable like of melee combat and good at it too, tick.

Extremely skilled with energy weapons, tick.

Teleportation and gate technology, tick.

There are difference but the similarities are quite obvious.

But this also describes half the races in sci-fi liturature. They psychic bit is a strong connection but not the technological bits. Any race that can make energy weapons of their own would be able to use them. I assume that either race only fights in close combat because of the Rule Of Cool.

Protoss arnt the fastest ground guys of their setting. Having watched a sizable force be outrun and dismembered by zerglings before i know this for a fact.

The races are also very different culturaly. The Eldar are a remnant of a galaxy spanning force that was sensationalistic to the point that they broke reality. The Protoss are a tribal caste-based race (very much like the Tau, but older) that are largly utilitarian in nature.

They also look differnt from the Eldar as has been mentioned and they have very different armor designes. Protoss amror is massive compared to the beings inside and has its mass unevenly distributed. Eldar armor is more like a decorative bodysuit of bulletproof plastics.

black dragoon
2008-05-27, 07:07 AM
That and the protoss' lack of a mouth...
on the continued debate of orbital assault I point out that we really have no idea how such a thing would go. One because we have yet to actually try such a thing and two we probaley(hopefully) never will need to. I'm also just going by the imformation from the novel which was written by an egineer and ex-navy boy.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-27, 04:03 PM
That and the protoss' lack of a mouth...
on the continued debate of orbital assault I point out that we really have no idea how such a thing would go. One because we have yet to actually try such a thing and two we probaley(hopefully) never will need to. I'm also just going by the imformation from the novel which was written by an egineer and ex-navy boy.

Actually we have a very clear idea of how it would work. All you need is simple math and a basic understanding of human psychology.

You could launch a missile from Pluto and have it impact on a specific building on the earth with no real problem. Planet's orbits don't really change, the projectiles velocity and rate of acceleration are known, and the targets location is known. With the right software and at most 5 minutes worth of processing time you could do it today.

Figuring out the yield of a KEW is simple, below relativistic velocities its .5MV^2 so if you want a smaller yield you use a smaller missile and launch it slower. And those weapons will always be cheaper than a ground assault or countermissiles (at least until you can completely negate gravity). Gravity helps the attacking missile and hinders the intercepting missile. Laser defense nets negate a large part of this problem but then it is just a matter of saturating the target (this assumes the laser can penetrate the plasma sheath around the attacking missile). And any intercept problem had by a missile is faced by a landing force, only more so. The ground landing travels slower, leaving more time in the intercept basket, and is far more expensive.

Since the ship has to be in orbit to keep the ground forces supplied, at least initially, then it is in position to use KEW's.

What all of this means is that the only time KEW's aren't used is when they aren't precise enough, an urban environment with noncombatants for example, or something has to be captured intact. And both of those are situations where highly mobile, highly trained, well equipped, human sized, individuals are the best way to go.

Thiel
2008-05-27, 04:58 PM
Although one is forced to wonder what sort of enemy could build a gun capable of blowing warships out of orbit, but can't create a weapon capable of pulping a guy in power armor , or would fail to put such weaponry around said exo-atmospheric ground based cannons.

Looking at my own post I see that I've managed to make the exact opposite point of what I wanted. (Oh the wonders of secondary languages)
Anyway, what I meant to say was that any plan that relies entirely on surprise to work is inherently a bad plan. And that's pretty much the scenario an MI unit would face when attacking a decently defended planet. If their ship is spotted in route, it is going to be under fire for a long time. And to make matters worse, if it becomes necessary to withdraw it'll have to send shuttles down to the surface, where they can be attacked by dedicated atmo-fighters.

warty goblin
2008-05-27, 05:11 PM
Looking at my own post I see that I've managed to make the exact opposite point of what I wanted. (Oh the wonders of secondary languages)
Anyway, what I meant to say was that any plan that relies entirely on surprise to work is inherently a bad plan. And that's pretty much the scenario an MI unit would face when attacking a decently defended planet. If their ship is spotted in route, it is going to be under fire for a long time. And to make matters worse, if it becomes necessary to withdraw it'll have to send shuttles down to the surface, where they can be attacked by dedicated atmo-fighters.

OK, that makes more sense. We are, in other words, in complete agreement, particularly about the whole surprise thing. I mean, it's not like any enemy worth the name isn't going to notice the spaceship moving into orbit, or the landing shuttle dropping off troops, and so on. Bottom line, if your plan catches the enemy unawares, so much the better, but don't count on it.

GoC
2008-05-27, 05:47 PM
The Protoss are kinda based on Eldar for all bar the actually look of the things inside the armour.

Psychic race, tick.

Extremely fast ground movement, tick.

Unexplicable like of melee combat and good at it too, tick.

Extremely skilled with energy weapons, tick.

Teleportation and gate technology, tick.

There are difference but the similarities are quite obvious.
Sounds like generic space elves to me...

Kane
2008-05-27, 05:50 PM
I personally would go with Mobile Infantry powered armor. As far as I can tell, it was the first, and, still is best. It's the most well thought out, and it was my first exposure to good military sci-fi. All in all, I'm rather fond of it, and inclined to defend it against any others.

And, I think all the varieties are so different that it'd be really hard to compare. Would an MI have the firepower to crack a Terminator SM? Would Spartan IIs from Halo be faster than an MI?

Thiel
2008-05-27, 06:08 PM
OK, that makes more sense. We are, in other words, in complete agreement, particularly about the whole surprise thing. I mean, it's not like any enemy worth the name isn't going to notice the spaceship moving into orbit, or the landing shuttle dropping off troops, and so on. Bottom line, if your plan catches the enemy unawares, so much the better, but don't count on it.

Actually, now that I think about it, I believe I've found a way of getting a starship close enough to earth to launch before it gets spotted.
1) Enter Sol on the far side of the sun.
2) Accelerate inwards in a spiral
3) Cut all emissions before leaving the suns shadow
5) Use Jupiter's gravity well to sling shoot your ship into the inner system
6) Launch pods at extreme range using low emission systems (Cold gas or the like)

The idea is basically that space is a very big place and unless you know exactly where to look for it, a ship running under EMCON will be practically invisible. Of course, in order to make it work the drop pods must be able to sustain the troops for quite some time and they still have to deal with the planetary equivalent of a CIWS. And even if they manages to get down onto the surface the troops still have to face the fact that the only way they they're going to get home again is to take out the planetary defence grid, because i they don't, their mothership wont be able to return and launch shuttles to pick them up.

All in all not an optimum battleplan.

MeklorIlavator
2008-05-27, 06:43 PM
A couple other problems:
The mother ship may not be detected, but the drop pods sure as hell will be. Even assuming that they get into the atmosphere undetected, they will be visible on any decent atmospheric defense system, and if you're going to have to hit a well fortified hostile planet you are going to need troops numbering in the thousands, so it will be pretty obvious what this is.

Seraph
2008-05-27, 09:23 PM
I just remembered the various cyborg ninja suits from the MGS series. not quite mass production, but there's at least three suits of similar design.

basically, they vary from "powered exosuit" to "full-on prosthetic". they're all armored skinsuits for whom a high-frequency vibrating katana is a primary weapon. they all enhance the wearer's agility, with the enhancement being based on how full the integration is - Olga's suit only has a minor enhancement, whereas Fox's suit is a replacement skin that gives him incredible agility and durability, and Raiden's suit from MGS4, which replaces his entire body save his head and spinal cord, is such utter hax that it has to be seen to be believed.

edit: this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYp1as3liIE)

no, those blurs aren't a shield. that's it's sword.

black dragoon
2008-05-28, 07:03 AM
warty that is the typical battleplan. Drop pods use basic chaff launchers in the novel which will and do in real life screw with radar,intercepts etc.They also knew it was'nt a optimum plan to begin with. It was their only feasible option short of glassing the surface. Something which the frowned upon since nine times out of ten the enemy was very deep underground and the planet could be colonised by humans.

Eita
2008-05-31, 10:07 PM
Protos=Eldar + tau?

I can perhaps see the elder thing at an extreme stretch (really extreme), but the Tau are newer than the Pro.

I grant that 40k came before starcraft, but the closest similarities stop after "both types of marines have similar shoulder pads" and "zerglings look like the tyranid gaunts".

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8f/Zealot_%28StarCraft%29.png
Does that look like an Eldar to you?


Eldar. I suppose when it comes down to it then the Eldar where invented by Tolkien (why took the name from norse mythology) and Heinlein invented the Space Marines.

Actually, that looks like a Tau, sans third eye slit thing due to Eldar influence, wearing Fragile Armor -a staple of Eldar EVERYTHING- with Ancient Technology (once again, Eldar) painted gold due to the fact that that is close to the color of Ta'u, the Tau army that is deployed from their very homeworld.

Kacaier
2008-06-04, 01:19 AM
Actually, that looks like a Tau, sans third eye slit thing due to Eldar influence, wearing Fragile Armor -a staple of Eldar EVERYTHING- with Ancient Technology (once again, Eldar) painted gold due to the fact that that is close to the color of Ta'u, the Tau army that is deployed from their very homeworld.
Indisputable: T'au came after Protoss. The End. Doesn't matter how long they were in production, unless you're stating Blizzard has access to internal Games Workshop creativity. Also, Andy Chambers came to Blizzard way after the release of StarCraft, so you can't use that either.

"The Tau were first introduced to Warhammer 40,000 in late 2001, the result of Games Workshop's plan to introduce a new race to the game." -Wikipedia

StarCraft release date, included Protoss race, "Release date: March 31, 1998"

I dare you to fight those facts of life. With that said, no amount of 'awesomeness' can dispute the almighty word of facts. No one bring up Protoss being rip offs of T'au again, because it is temporally impossible.

Now, on the basis of the Protoss and Eldar, I will give you more credit on that. However, besides the fact that Eldar are Tolkien inspired Elves in space... Need I say more? I will if you want me to, and oho, do I have more. The fact that it's Space Elves has compelled me to not continue. I really wish Games Workshop got rid of both Space Elves and Space Orks, like they did with the Space Dwarves, aka Squats.

On the issue of Terran Marines and Imperial Space Marines. Huh? Besides the fact that the two are men clad in power armor, you forget to mention the facts of Mobile Infantry, Halo, and the mass variety of men in power armor also exist. They both serve different roles (basic infantry fodder vs. ace in the hole) and are aesthetically different in visual design. Pull up any Space Marine and any version of a Terran Marine, you will find barely any possible design comparisons.

The only conceivable reason why anyone would ever consider Terran Marines to be rip-offs of Space Marines, is because of the Zerg-Tyranid comparison. Now as debatable as that is, this is a thread on power armor. The shortcomings of another race should not affect the others. Secondly, some people have problems with linguistics and find the fact that 'marine' is a copyright of Games Workshop. Oh wait, no. Yes, Games Workshop are English, but they don't own the English language. Nor the US Marine Corps, which I assume both are named after.


Sorry, but no supporting of specific games is occurring. Warcraft and Starcraft were both based off of Warhammer or Warhammer 40k--Warcraft in particular was originally slated to be Warhammer the Strategy Game if GW hadn't backed out at the last moment.
Too bad that's all rumors. It's especially easier to swallow when people try making points because they can't find any more merits to their arguments. Though I can't truly prove WarCraft was not a Warhammer game at first, I'd like to point out that they're both fantasy games, based off of fantasy. Dare I mention Dungeons & Dragons and the granddaddy of all fantasy, Tolkien?

On to StarCraft, why in the world would Games Workshop fall through on Warhammer game, in which Blizzard has successfully franchised, and then want to try its hand at another game with Blizzard Entertainment? And they happen to fall through another time! If all these rumors were true, I'd think such idiocy would deserve to be ripped off! Too bad again, rumors. Look up StarCraft in its Alpha phase, and tell me how the Nightmarish Invaders were a concept development for anything of the Warhammer 40k universe.

http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/StarCraft_alpha


Additionally: Ghosts = Inquisitors, who often also use power armor, are frequently psychic, and tend to sneak around. They also contain some stuff from the various assassins. :smalltongue:
Ghost and Inquisitor... Wow, you have got to be a vulture to be picking at the bare, bitter bones like that. Besides the fact that almost every single race (excluding Necron & Tau) has psychic powers, I have no doubt you'd find someone to compare to a psychic Ghost. Now the question is, is a Warhammer 40k fanboy's 'fanboyism' powerful enough for him to lay claim of telekinesis, telepathy, or psionics in the hands of Warhammer 40k? Any takers?

Oho, but I'm not done there. They both serve entirely different roles and influence. You people act as if people are incapable of pulling inspiration from other sources. Inquisiton = Spanish Inquisition. It's not surprising considering the whole Gothic atmosphere of WH40k, with the Witch hunters, heretics, blah blah Warhammer Fantasy in space. Terran Ghosts are used like our modern-day special forces. They assassinate, infiltrate, commit espionage, and et cetera. How about leaving the bones and hand me the steak?

Now, I will find it interesting to see how people dispute this. But on the sake of this thread, let's keep the merits of power armor on the power armor, not the franchise origins. Also, beware in continuing this 'stole' discussion, because I have my own ace in the hole: the fact that Space Marines are mentioned so many times on the same lines as the Mobile Infantry, yet nothing fishy seems to appear. *cough* *cough*

Revlid
2008-06-04, 06:02 AM
Protoss are visually beefy Tau with the Eldar background.
Terran Marines are so clearly Space Marines it's not funny (http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l111/Revlid/WTFBlizzard3.gif).
Zerg are Tyranids, no dispute is possible.

Argue that they're not direct rip-offs (http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l111/Revlid/WTFBlizzard1.gif), that's fine.

Argue that they're not even 'inspired' by GW's IP (http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l111/Revlid/WTFBlizzard2.gif), and I'll have to say you're in denial (http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l111/Revlid/WTFBlizzard4.gif).

Anyway, I'm going to have to throw in a vote for the Iron Man suits here. The other suits may move at the speed of light, fire nukes as small arms, or be several stories high, but Iron Man wins, because his suit has hot-rod red in it. Do the M1 suits have hot-rod red? I thought not.

Oslecamo
2008-06-04, 06:39 AM
Terran Marines are so clearly Space Marines it's not funny (http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l111/Revlid/WTFBlizzard3.gif).

I have to strongly disagree with this. There are several diferences:

1-SM armor is decorated with a paranaphelia of skulls, symbols, scrolls, chains and whatnot. TM armor is mostly dull whitout special characteristics. TM armor, however, has lights mounted on the chest, a characteristic never seen in SM armor.

2-SM are very powerfull melee combatants and have a wide arsenal of melee weapons. TM have no melee weapons whatsoever and want to stay away from melee combat as much as possible.

3-TM basic gun is much bigger than the SM basic gun, and shoots plain solid big bullets instwad of fancy mini rockets.

4-Sm are fanatic monks carefully trained and capable of deep speeches, chosen among the most perfect of humankind, filled with genetic modifications, an elite strike force that can live for hundreds of years. TM are criminals who are sent to die as cannon fodder, are as rude as possible whitout making the game PG18, whitout genetic enanchments and are adicted to a myriad of drugs wich severly shortens their life span to just a few years of service, if they don't get killed first.

Seriously, the only similarity is that they both wear big armors and have marine in their names. Everything else is diferent.

EDIT:Actually, what was the last time you saw a SM scream like a girl? Or suffer a psychologic breakdown during battle due to sheer stress?

TM do those. SM don't.

black dragoon
2008-06-04, 06:55 AM
I'm gonna have to agree. Physically they look simeler but at their hearts they are totally different. The closest thing 40K has to these guys is their conscript soldiers.

konfeta
2008-06-04, 08:19 AM
Dude, don't bother arguing with the !!!SC RIPPED OFF WH40K!!! bandwagon. I tried many times, they refute logic, facts, and substance better than WH40K refutes physics.

Their arguments are almost always -

1. TERRANS MARINES LOOK LIKE SPACE MARINES! RIP OFF!
2. ZERG = TYRANIDS!
3. PROTOSS ARE PSYCHIC HIGHTECH AND ANCIENT THEREFORE THEY RIP OF ELDAR!
*. Insert "THEY MIXED STUFF AROUND" as secondary justification when you point out the massive differences. Case in point? Dragoons and Dreadnoughts.

Anything else said on the subject matter is reiterating these points until they run out of oxygen. No amount of in-detail and logical refutation will convince them otherwise. And this is coming from a person who likes both settings, more than enough to see the two universes are nothing alike outside generic race labels (humans, high-tech aliens, bug aliens). Inspired? Sure, I'll give them that. WH40k is pretty damn inspiring. Rip off? Get off the bandwagon, you risk rotting your brain.

**The closest they get to having merit is the Zerg = Tyranids. Mostly some of the names and unit appearances are very similar. And even then, when you try look at both races in detail, they are pretty different.

black dragoon
2008-06-04, 08:39 AM
I wasn't saying they ripped the other off! I was saing there are simalarities yes but, they are totally diffrent at the heart of it all.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-06-04, 08:59 AM
The Nerd Rage in this thread is strong.

black dragoon
2008-06-04, 09:11 AM
Has been for awhile. I really try to play nice but it's hard at times:smallbiggrin:
I do not mean to offend anyone BTW I just happen to an arrogant B@#tard.

konfeta
2008-06-04, 10:48 AM
Nerd rage is healthy for society as it replaces stuff like road rage.

Kacaier
2008-06-04, 11:02 AM
Protoss are visually beefy Tau with the Eldar background.
Way to not read my post. Do you like, have a little booklet you copy and paste from, that way you have preconceived rantings (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2008/5/23/) that totally disregard points in aforementioned posts?

Tau = Late 2001
Protoss = Early 1998

Is that too hard to understand? Are you in constant WH40k fap mode that you believe you are in the same universe and somehow time is all a blur because you RPG'd about going through the Immaterium and now you're in another time?

Secondly, do you even know anything about StarCraft? I know both worlds, and clearly I can debate each subject to the nitty gritty. The only close background that the Protoss and Eldar had was both used to be powerful in their area. Even that's a stretch, as the Protoss had no idea of the majority of the galaxy, like Earth, whereas the Eldar were the most powerful the galaxy had to offer (besides the Necrons).

Because the Eldar were so powerful, they began pursuing hedonistic activities and began to decay morally like how people said rock n' roll & drugs were going to do to our society. Blah blah they made a god and then they all died (Oops! Most did, damn you Slaanesh and your inability to exterminate the Eldar!). Does anyone even like the Eldar?

The Protoss were the a bunch of rag tag tribal warriors that warred with their fellow Protoss (like the T'au; again, T'au after, Protoss before) until Khas united them all with his teachings, known as the Khala. Thusly they began to harness their latent communal telepathy and began to forge the Protoss empire. Which only fell when the Zerg raped their planet.


Terran Marines are so clearly Space Marines it's not funny (http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l111/Revlid/WTFBlizzard3.gif).
Wow, you put up two pictures of two blue guys in armor. I think that's where the similarities stop. Instead of putting up pictures that someone else made, how about using your ability to debate and analyze that b*tch for us?

Hell, majority of Space Marines aren't even blue! Obviously Terran Marines have to be SOME color. I bet if Blizzard made their guys red, you'd probably put up a picture comparing them to Blood Ravens or Blood Angels.


Zerg are Tyranids, no dispute is possible.
How about going to the source of both of their conception? Oh, I'm sorry! Did you think Games Workshop was original? *buzz* Arachnids and Borg = Tyranids. Yes, both of them were introduced before the Tyranid race in its current incarnation. Genestealers did come before Borg, but they were not related to Tyranids at the time (because Tyranids hadn't been thought up yet!).

You don't see the comparison? No problem, unlike you I'll analyze the thing so I can spoon feed reason and logic.

Swarming. Arachnids.
Bug-like. Arachnids.
Hive mind. Arachnids & Borg.
Assimilation. Borg.
Adaptation. Borg.

Need anymore?


Argue that they're not direct rip-offs (http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l111/Revlid/WTFBlizzard1.gif), that's fine.
So, what you got there. Three pictures of guys shooting down corridors, with two aliens on the side of the picture. Let's analyze! Are you trying to say GW owns corridors? No? Alright so they're allowed to shoot down corridors. Are you saying people can't use art 101 in keeping things from blocking the main image (the guy shooting)? Otherwise they might have to put a picture where you see a hydralisk's back, and barely any Marine. So, considering corridors in a setting that involves aliens and guy shooting, how do you suppose you'd set up the picture? Better just go back and compare the two space marines first.


Argue that they're not even 'inspired' by GW's IP (http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l111/Revlid/WTFBlizzard2.gif), and I'll have to say you're in denial (http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l111/Revlid/WTFBlizzard4.gif).
Wow, is this your first time learning how to debate? Concerning the first image, do you even know who the guy on the right is? That's Valerian Mengsk, the son of the Emperor (not God-Emperor mind you, not like Dune *COUGH* *HACK*) of the Dominion. He doesn't fight in the wars, hell, he likes archeology. Besides both wearing decorated non-combat uniforms and baring swords... Do I need to remind you how Marines in their uniforms also have swords and glitz?

I don't need to argue the second picture. I'm not aware of the insult policy here, so I'll reserve my words to myself.

Come back again with either:
A) Your own damn analysis
B) An argument, instead of just pictures
C) An address to my argument
D) (optional) Balls

GoC
2008-06-04, 11:12 AM
Additionally: Ghosts = Inquisitors, who often also use power armor, are frequently psychic, and tend to sneak around. They also contain some stuff from the various assassins. :smalltongue:

Well inquisitors can't create a lockdown field or become invisible...

Kacaier: Wow!:smalleek:
Cut back on the nerd rage!:smalleek:

LBO
2008-06-04, 11:15 AM
tl;dr
Ladies and gentlemen, I give you - a loud and rabid fanboy with an axe or five to grind!


Well inquisitors can't create a lockdown field or become invisible...
Psst, stasis grenades and... cameleoline? Inquisitors absolutely =\= ghosts, but the more esoteric 40k hardware can do all kinds of crap.

GoC
2008-06-04, 11:28 AM
Ladies and gentlemen, I give you - a loud and rabid fanboy with an axe or five to grind!

He makes points but he's so impolite and unpleasant about it that noone is even going to bother to read it.

Kacaier
2008-06-04, 11:32 AM
Ladies and gentlemen, I give you - a loud and rabid fanboy with an axe or five to grind!
Haha, that's alright. :smallsmile: I find the only way to fight fanboyism is to be a fanboy myself. Don't get me wrong, I love me some Warhammer 40k, but I'm tired of these one sided debates. I only bring equality. 0:^)


Psst, stasis grenades and... cameleoline? Inquisitors absolutely =\= ghosts, but the more esoteric 40k hardware can do all kinds of crap.
Your continuing of the debate is only testament of your own rabidness. Just accept it instead of being neutral, man. Insult to the sci-fi you love if you just moderately enjoy it. :smalltongue:

black dragoon
2008-06-04, 11:33 AM
I really stand fairly neutral in this stance I like SC better but, hey whatever floats your boat right?:smallwink:

GoC
2008-06-04, 01:01 PM
Haha, that's alright. :smallsmile: I find the only way to fight fanboyism is to be a fanboy myself. Don't get me wrong, I love me some Warhammer 40k, but I'm tired of these one sided debates. I only bring equality. 0:^)

*thwacks sarcasm meter*
This thing's been broken for over a week now!:smallredface:

LBO
2008-06-04, 01:10 PM
Haha, that's alright. :smallsmile: I find the only way to fight fanboyism is to be a fanboy myself. Don't get me wrong, I love me some Warhammer 40k, but I'm tired of these one sided debates. I only bring equality. 0:^)
No, you just post boring, bawling tl;dr rage. No amount of ":smallsmile:" is going to hide your angry, ranty idiocy.

Verruckt
2008-06-04, 01:15 PM
Hey look, Serpentine made a thread for bawling NEARD RAEG!! idiocy

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82291

Go there... not here, here we post neat powered armor.

Kacaier
2008-06-04, 01:16 PM
No, you just post boring, bawling tl;dr rage. No amount of ":smallsmile:" is going to hide your angry, ranty idiocy.
Whoa dude, if it were, you don't have to respond to it. The fact I haven't called you any names is kind of a good sign. :smallconfused:

Considering your signature and how you post, you have latent angry WaH40k in you, I can tell. :smalltongue: I also like how you disregard the other WH40k defense rantings against StarCraft. :smallwink:

Calm down, buddeh, besides, let's take this to the other thread.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82291

Were-Sandwich
2008-06-04, 02:45 PM
I don't really think you can compare two fictional things from different IPs (but I do enjoy reading some of the arguements). I do however love the idea of PA. My favourites include:

Mobile Infantry. Well thought out, good capabilities. Only downside is lack of authoratitive pictures. I'm waiting for a true-to-the-book movie.

That Ghost In The Shell One looks really cool.

Some of the power armour from Ground Zero Games looks pretty cool.

The Union power armour from the short-lived Vor: The Maelstrom was very cool looking.

Headless_Ninja
2008-06-04, 04:17 PM
Going to have to use the Culture's Serious-FYT suits (not going to explain the acronym on a family-friendly forum [Hey! Alliteration! It could even be F cubed!]). C'mon; as much bonus strength as you really need, flight (in some cases), ability to override local computers/radios/most electromagnetic signals/I would imagine any weaponry that wasn't utterly beneath the Culture's thought, agility, the ability to have the suit's AI take control and fight for you (well, it would have far better targeting and reactions than any human) and, of course, the standard uber-defence package. With the weaponry the Culture can provide, you can level a city with one of these things.

LBO
2008-06-04, 04:26 PM
I love how silly-advanced Culture tech is. Gotta love spaceships that can play the technology of an entire world like a xylophone from a couple of systems away. Also, bombs too small to see that can split a planet in half.

Wasn't Zakalwe's suit actually a less advanced version he had out of nostalgia, or am I thinking of the plasma cannon?

Headless_Ninja
2008-06-05, 12:16 PM
Fairly sure that was the plasma cannon, but it could have been the suit too. As Skaffen Amtiskaw says about the impossibly powerful plasma cannon:
'Nowadays we have pistols that are more effective'.

Yeah, Culture tech is awesomely over-the-top. You know, just ignore it - I'm fairly sure there is/should be a rule saying that it's unfair to introduce the Culture into threads like this.

LBO
2008-06-05, 12:29 PM
Checked up, and it was just the plasma cannon. And man, I love Banks' arsenal. "Do you fire this mother or just use it as a battering ram?" :smallbiggrin:

I almost did my A-level English coursework on Use of Weapons, but they stopped me cause it was SF... mumble mumble stupid literary elitism bullcrap mumble mumble... did The Bridge instead. Full marks.

Last time someone tried to have something (namely, 40k) removed from vs threads on grounds of silly overpowered, it was a twenty-page crapstorm. Like TA, what keeps Culture out of debates like this is its relative obscurity here. Needs more love :(

black dragoon
2008-06-05, 12:32 PM
Careful bringing something like The Culture to light may lead to a simaler Crapstorm and those suck.:smalleek:

Tom_Violence
2008-06-05, 01:14 PM
Out of sheer curiousity I looked up this 'Culture', and the novels sound pretty dang interesting. So, as a complete aside, are they actually any good as novels qua novels, or is it just a nice idea?

LBO
2008-06-05, 01:23 PM
In the main, they're seriously good novels. Banks has sort of slipped recently (Matter was easily the... not-best of his Culture, though a fine novel in its own right, and The Algebraist wasn't great), but Excession, Use of Weapons, Consider Phlebas, Look to Windward and The Player of Games are all stunning novels. (Inversions is more a mind-screw than SF.) My personal favourites are Use of Weapons and Excession.

Tom_Violence
2008-06-05, 01:25 PM
Awesome, cheers. I shall try and pick one up soon then. :smallbiggrin:

GoC
2008-06-05, 06:38 PM
Last time someone tried to have something (namely, 40k) removed from vs threads on grounds of silly overpowered, it was a twenty-page crapstorm. Like TA, what keeps Culture out of debates like this is its relative obscurity here. Needs more love :(

That's because 40K can be beaten and has weaponry that can be compared to modern stuff while things like the Culture or TA don't and can't.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-06-05, 07:25 PM
No, you just post boring, bawling tl;dr rage. No amount of ":smallsmile:" is going to hide your angry, ranty idiocy.

Is it time to break out the Student Incontinent Bodies Superweapon? The BAWWWWW bunny?

LBO
2008-06-05, 07:56 PM
That's because 40K can be beaten and has weaponry that can be compared to modern stuff while things like the Culture or TA don't and can't.
There's always a bigger Mary Sue fish.

hanzo66
2008-06-06, 03:45 AM
Psst, stasis grenades and... cameleoline? Inquisitors absolutely =\= ghosts, but the more esoteric 40k hardware can do all kinds of crap.
Ghosts seem to be really more like Vindicare Assassins with psychic powers from my point of view rather than Inquisitors.

Oslecamo
2008-06-06, 04:47 AM
Ghosts seem to be really more like Vindicare Assassins with psychic powers from my point of view rather than Inquisitors.

Wich would be true, if the ghost wasn't much better at disabling enemy vehicles and robots than infantry, and if his main source of damage wasn't shooting nukes at his targets.

LBO
2008-06-06, 04:50 AM
Yeah, Ghosts are more general-purpose special forces with some seriously fancy tricks, Vindicares are your Final Solution to a single enemy leader. Unless love blooms.

black dragoon
2008-06-06, 10:37 AM
Ghosts= quick and easy mass destruction
vindicares= the guys you call to shoot the commander in the back
right, yes/no?

LBO
2008-06-06, 11:15 AM
In the head, but yes.

Also, Ghosts don't have all that much hitting power on their own, they just designate the target for a silo-launched nuke.

black dragoon
2008-06-06, 11:17 AM
And if they can't they run away. :smallbiggrin:
Worst thing is the lone ghost and a Zerg-Rush That sucks.

Eerie
2008-06-06, 11:21 AM
Best powered armor is a tank.

Thiel
2008-06-06, 01:23 PM
Best powered armor is a tank.

Except that a tank can't fulfil the role of infantry.

Eerie
2008-06-06, 02:05 PM
Except that a tank can't fulfil the role of infantry.

True, but neither can all the humongous mecha shown in this thread. :smalltongue:

Thiel
2008-06-06, 04:27 PM
True, but neither can all the humongous mecha shown in this thread. :smalltongue:

Humongous Mecha? We're talking about powered armour here. Sure, some of them might be a tad on the large side (MI armour for example), but in general they tend to be infantry sized.

Leon
2008-06-07, 07:29 AM
What link?
The one i took out right after it was found to not be working and with a bit of effort have reworked to work elsewhere

It works after a fashion
http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/1539/manowarcw4.th.jpg (http://img71.imageshack.us/my.php?image=manowarcw4.jpg) [img=http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/1539/manowarcw4.th.jpg]Man -O-War[/url]

Emperor Tippy
2008-06-07, 07:31 AM
Link not working
What link?

black dragoon
2008-06-09, 07:45 AM
It works now That thing looks painful.