with moderate power... is there any hope for the core bard?

[ericgrau]

So, one thing has bugged me about 3.5e classes... I still can't find a good use for a bard. After much forum derision towards some classes, efforts to challenge myself, and a deep look into the rules, I've found good uses for the ranger, fighter and even the poor monk. But I still got nothing for the bard. I mean it seems like he can poorly buff and poorly mimic 3 other classes. What use is that in a mixed party when the party can better handle any challenge, and really the bard could contribute more by focusing on something?

So maybe someone could post some good bard strats without prestiging him out. EDIT: No splatbooks either. I have my own strat that makes him into the party skillmonkey, caster of useful low level spells, and magic item crafter, but that hardly seems worth it compared to making a full caster into the party batman, caster of useful low level spells and magic item crafter.

[Azerian Kelimon]

So, one thing has bugged me about 3.5e classes... I still can't find a good use for a bard. After much forum derision towards some classes, efforts to challenge myself, and a deep look into the rules, I've found good uses for the ranger, fighter and even the poor monk. But I still got nothing for the bard. I mean it seems like he can poorly buff and poorly mimic 3 other classes. What use is that in a mixed party when the party can better handle any challenge, and really the bard could contribute more by focusing on something?

So maybe someone could post some good bard strats without prestiging him out. I have my own strat that makes him into the party skillmonkey and magic item crafter, but that hardly seems worth it compared to making a full caster into the party batman and magic item crafter.

Virtuoso with PrC's. Fascinate. Dragonfire bard. White raven bard. Otto's irresistible dancer. Inspire superpwn (AKA courage).

And Diplomancer.

[SamTheCleric]

Combine UMD, Decent Spell Selection, Bardic Music... you're the generalist... you're there to make everyone else better.

For Instance... my bard this weekend picked up a whip. We had trouble hitting the BBEG... so I took a risk and tripped him. Worked wonders.

Never underestimate the ability to make everyone else better.

[Solo]

Bards can be good if you try.
Iaijutsu focus and Snowflake Wardance come to mind.

[ericgrau]

"without prestiging him out" now underlined in first post. Already italicized the without, may increase font if necessary.

EDIT: I appreciate Sam's post, but I've already looked at the points he mentioned before:
UMD: Usually better to dip 1 level into a caster. Utility scrolls & wands are handy, but the full caster example I gave still seems like a better option.

Tripping: Simply reflects most people's poor understanding of combat tactics with other classes. This is why the monk can in fact be useful, and why fighters can & should do more than just hit (though they're also good at hitting).

Bardic music: Most/all are not worth the standard action it takes to start them. If you can start them before combat, great, but it's a minor plus.

Basically a buffing/battlefield control sorceror still seems like a much better option. Pop everyone with heroism and it's long duration out of combat, use the same mass buffs (like haste) in combat earlier than a bard can, disable baddies with battlefield control spells. Carry lots of utility scrolls and maybe wands.

[SamTheCleric]

Solo and I both provided you with ways to make the bard useful without prestige.

[ericgrau]

Ah, I though Solo was using prestige. Ok, I'll add "no splatbooks". Let's try a core bard here.

[Keld Denar]

Dragonfire Inspiration combined with the TWF and optimized Inspire Courge is pretty decent. Making 7-8 attacks a round with +~8d6 fire damage on each one. Its a lot better if you can combine with Warblade using Song of the White Raven and Tiger Claw maneuvers, but you could build it with straight bard too.

[SamTheCleric]

Core Only Bard.

UMD - Never underestimate the ability to cover some spellcasting. Especially those scrolls of lesser restoration, remove disease, remove poison etc.

Cure X Wounds - These are all on a Bard's spell list and he should have a wand to serve as back up healer... he can even be main healer if he adds them to his spells known at the appropriate level.

Bardic Music - Very underestimated. +1 to hit and damage is huge, because it makes everyone better. Sure, you have to use an action on it... but it doesn't take you out of the fight after that. And that's only low level inspire courage. You can also use Fascinate, Suggestion, Inspire Heroics, Inspire Greatness... the list goes on.

Skills - You have 6+int skills... you can spread these out as you choose, but you'll probably be best focusing on skills that make you Likable... or at least believable. My top choices are: Perform, Diplomacy, Bluff, Tumble, Use Magic Device, Speak Language, Knowledges... but milage may vary.

Diplomancy - A half elf bard at first level can easily have a +9 diplomacy. At 2nd level it jumps to a staggering +16 (3 different synergys - Bluff, Sense Motive and Know [nobility and royalty]) You can now take someone from Unfriendly to Friendly on a roll of a 9. At Second level.

Bardic Lore - You know -everything-! Its always valuable to a party to say "oh, This place used to be haunted by dread wraiths and dire hippopotomus ghosts". Things like that are invaluable.

As for feats... again, it depends on what you are trying to do with your character and where you're trying to fill in. Want to be in combat? Combat Expertise and Trip/Disarm work wonders with a Bard's automatic proficiency with a Whip. Maybe you want to be an archer, pick up Point Blank/Precise line. You literally can take this anywhere.

You've got 3/4 BAB, TWO good Saves, d6 hit die... there is -nothing- bad about bard, it just gets overlooked because it doesnt need to focus on any ONE thing.

[Kurald Galain]

I'm not sure why you are so adamant about not prestiging out; after all, a fighter and a wizard also tend to prestige out as soon as level 6.

Anyway. The obvious role for a bard is face, although whether you need this depends on the type of the campaign (the more social interaction in there, the more the bard shines). Aside from that, based on the fluff I know many people who simply like playing bards for the roleplaying.

Mechanically speaking, the bard is essentially "second best at everything", which I believe is a viable (if suboptimal) party role. Note that I meant "second best within the party", not of "all classes in general". This means that (1) if the party splits up, the bard can go in any of the groups and be useful; (2) if the party for whatever reason lacks some particular role, the bard can step in; and (3) if the party is smaller than the Classic Four-man Band, having a jack of all trades helps.

Other than that, just take spells that the wizard doesn't know, learn skills the rogue doesn't want, and use combat tricks the fighter doesn't like.

[Hal]

Eric, what are you looking for here?

Yeah, if you stick to core, the power balance is silly. Melee classes dominate the low-level game while full-casters dominate at mid to high levels.

I guess the question is, are you sticking to core because that's all you have access to, or to prove a point? It seems like you already have an opinion on the Bard's utility.

A core Bard is never going to fight as well as a Fighter or even a Rogue. He'll never be as powerful a caster as a Druid or Sorcerer. The power of the Bard, in core, is being able to do a little bit of everything; jack-of-all-trades, master of none.

Besides, not everything in this game is combat. When it comes to non-combat encounters, particularly anything that requires NPC interactions, the Bard becomes incredibly important and powerful.

[Mr. Friendly]

What Hal said.

The Bard does not exist to be some awesome guy who hits the I win button every fight. He is subtle and generally is best as a party face, information broker and 5th wheel. He is there to fill the gaps in the battle that isn't being covered because of circumstance.

The fighter needs healing, but the cleric is busy healing the rogue, or has a monster in his face: The bard heals the fighter.

The cleric needs someone to get a monster off him, but the fighter is helping the rogue: The bard distracts the monster (via spells or fighting).

The rogue needs someone to help him flank, but the fighter is protecting the wizard: The bard moves in for the flank.

The wizard needs to cast a spell, but the enemy is counter-spelling: The bard uses counter-song or readies to counter the counter-spell.

That's all in addition to singing to boost everyone and all the other tricks of the bard trade.

Bard isn't a bad class, it's just not a class for people who want to be "the best" at whatever they do.

[Telonius]

"Making others better" is really what the Bard is all about. And not just for Bardic Music, though that's the most obvious one. It's also true for spellcasting. The Bard's spell list itself can allow other casters to be better. Not that it raises their caster level, but that there are quite a few utility spells on there. Batman favorites like Grease, Feather Fall, Sleep, Blur, Blink, Mirror Image, Glitterdust, Dispel Magic, Greater Dispel Magic, Haste, Dimension Door, Greater Invisibility, and Rainbow Pattern are there. So are Cleric staples like Heroes' Feast and some Cure spells.

All well and good, you might say, but can't the other casters already do that stuff? Here's where the concept of "opportunity cost" comes in. Every time the Cleric casts Heroes' Feast, that's one more Blade Barrier or Harm he can't cast. Every Glitterdust the Wizard casts is a Web or See Invisibility or Spider Climb he can't cast. Even if the Bard doesn't have a Cure spell prepared, hand him a wand and the Cleric can concentrate on smiting his foes instead of healing in-combat.

[ericgrau]

There were some good points made and I can see a careful bard being useful. There were some others that I already addressed/etc., so I won't start an argument. Thanks, I think I have a better idea about bard usage now. Btw, this completes the loop for me. I'm pretty well satisfied with every class in the PHB now.

EDIT (more detail):
So I think it's best for the bard to focus on things that he can do as-well/almost-as-well as other classes (i.e., the things people mentioned). Sure, a 2nd caster/rogue/fighter/etc. could do just as well or better, but the bard can handle all the busywork of all 3-4 classes as the need arises. Plus bardic knowledge and other abilities that can be used without consuming a precious combat action are all gravy. Perhaps the bard could better be considered "the master of all 'weak' but necessary trades, and the jack of no strong ones."

Every +1 is handy but bardic music still doesn't seem worth a standard action. Well, maybe it's worth it after you get +3 or +4. Is this a trap or is there a good way to use inspire courage? Anyone ever use fascinate/suggestion? Inspire competence is all gravy, I guess, annoying as it may be (otherwise I'm not one to complain about a free +2).

[Burley]

I'm sorry, but I really need to disagee with your comment of: "the master of all weak but necessary trades, and the jack of no strong ones."

Social interaction is half of a good D&D campaign. If there isn't enough social interaction to merit having a good Bard face, then your campaign is probably one giant dungeon crawl.
A bard can look somebody in the face, stab him in that face, and then, (with the help of Glibness) say, "Why'd you just stab yourself in the face?" Mr. Faceblade would believe him.
A bard can look a King in the face, roll Diplomacy and say, "Good King, I know I just killed your only son, so, let me replace an heir with an heir by allowing me to marry your incredibly hot daughter." The wedding would be that same evening.

As for a +1 attack and damage with bardic music: Considering that, at first level, a bard can double the bonuses on melee attacks for everybody in the party, for as many rounds as he keeps singing (which takes no effort on the part of the player)...that's pretty dang impressive. The bard is a buffer. Using one action to boost your entire party is not a waste, at all. What were you gonna do with that round anyways? Move 30ft away from your biggest threat, and buff yourself somehow? Yeah...just spread the butter onto the entire party. It's useful, and it's not a waste.

Just because the Bard won't outshine anything else in combat doesn't mean the places he does outshine the party any less relevant. An entire fight can be one with a well timed Diplomacy roll. An entire war can be prevented with the same Diplomacy score.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Not to mention, a Snowflake Wardance bard is going to be an excellent combatant.

And in fact, ALL of the strategies I noted on the first post work without PrCs.

[Telonius]

A bard can look a King in the face, roll Diplomacy and say, "Good King, I know I just killed your only son, so, let me replace an heir with an heir by allowing me to marry your incredibly hot daughter." The wedding would be that same evening.


7.5 out of 10. You lost points for not putting in the obligatory Monty Python quote.

"This is supposed to be a happy occasion! Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who.

[ericgrau]

...

Fighting urge to use reason with something that's (mostly, not all) ridiculously unreasonable, as person probably won't pay attention anyway. I think there's been enough good options pointed out for the bard already. No need to ruin it now with silly stuff.

Just gonna say thanks to Sam, Kurald, Mr. Friendly and Telonius.

[Aquillion]

Basically, the problem people have with the Bard is that they focus on the wrong parts of his abilities -- trying to fit him in as a caster or (worse) a combatant. Those make good secondary abilities, but they're not his chief role.

Primarily, the Bard is a skillmonkey. Compare him to the rogue and you get an idea of how good the class is; you're basically trading two skill points per level (out of a still-decent pool of 6), sneak attack, and trapfinding for some decent casting and buffing ability. It's a fair trade. Just like the core rogue is a strictly secondary combatant whose role in combat is just to back up their primary skill-monkey role outside of fights, the core bard is a secondary caster / buffer whose abilities there are intended to back up their primary purpose as a skillmonkey.

Bards are rogues that focus on magic, buffs, and song instead of stabbing and traps. They do just fine at that.

[Azerian Kelimon]

...

Fighting urge to use reason with something that's (only mostly) ridiculously unreasonable, as person probably won't pay attention anyway. I think there's been enough good options pointed out for the bard already. No need to ruin it now with silly stuff.

Actually, every build presented here is perfectly valuable and reasonable.

A Bard CAN do that diplomacy trick, easily.

Burley still spoke a ton of nonsense, though.

[Draz74]

The Core Bard can also dip 2 levels of Rogue to get Trapfinding and Evasion, as well as make Search and Disable Device class skills (as far as their maximum number of ranks is concerned).

If you're a typical 5th-wheel bard, this is dumb -- you'd get more utility out of 2 more levels of spellcasting and bardic music. But if you need the Core Bard to be able to fill one of the Four Party Roles, voila -- you have a viable skill monkey.

[Kurald Galain]

"This is supposed to be a happy occasion! Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who.

Yeah, we all know how that turned out... they were forced to eat Robin's bards, er, minstrels, and there was much rejoicing.

[Burley]

I speak truth, spiked with nonsense. I used hyperbole, but only to illistrate completely viable points.
Contrary to (not so popular, but apparently existing) belief, I am open to criticism and civilized discussion. I would be perfectly willing to accept another person's retort to my opinion, would a person choose to state it, rather than simply saying that I am unruly and unworthy of the time.

I agree with Azerian, though. I do speak nonsense. I would like to thank Azerian, since he received no thanks from anybody else for his part in this thread, and I wouldn't want to pass off the idea that I would mention him and passive aggresively insult him.

@ Telonious: I shall not go into the Land of Monty Python Quotes, for that is a silly place.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Y'see, what you said was not bad, but it went from a very flawed assumption:

Somebody actually rolls for the talkin', which is purely a RP action.

[Burley]

I thought the thread was about making a mechanically strong Bard, not an unstoppable RPer...
Now I just feel stupid... Thanks, Azerian. You've shattered my dreams... as a 20th level Warlock. Over and Over and OVER!

[Azerian Kelimon]

'Cause a focused Sunder using Psywar powered by Divine Power and Wraithstrike is where it's at, baby. :smallcool:

[Chronos]

Its always valuable to a party to say "oh, This place used to be haunted by dread wraiths and dire hippopotomus ghosts".Especially when it isn't true. :smallbiggrin:

Really, I would say that a bard is valuable in a party of any size other than 4. In a smaller party, you need his versatility: A party of 2 or 3 characters can limp along with a bard filling two roles out of skillmonkey, arcane casting, and healing. In a larger party, his buffing ability really comes to the fore: You can make sure that the rogue can pick that lock, or make sure that the fighter can hit that monster, or make sure that the wizard can concentrate, concentrate, concentrate, concentrate on casting that spell defensively. When you're improving everyone, the more other characters there are to improve, the better. And when you've got 4 or 5 other people to improve, the amount you improve each one by doesn't have to be much to be significant.

[JaxGaret]

Really, I would say that a bard is valuable in a party of any size other than 4. In a smaller party, you need his versatility: A party of 2 or 3 characters can limp along with a bard filling two roles out of skillmonkey, arcane casting, and healing. In a larger party, his buffing ability really comes to the fore: You can make sure that the rogue can pick that lock, or make sure that the fighter can hit that monster, or make sure that the wizard can concentrate, concentrate, concentrate, concentrate on casting that spell defensively. When you're improving everyone, the more other characters there are to improve, the better. And when you've got 4 or 5 other people to improve, the amount you improve each one by doesn't have to be much to be significant.

Chronos hit the nail on the head here.

I will reiterate that the Bardic Knowledge check that the Bard - and only the Bard - gets can be a godsend at times.

Actually, there is one role that the Bard can fill quite well in an iconic 4-person party - if they one-level dip in Rogue they can fill the trapfinder role, which is particularly beneficial if the campaign features lots of unsneakattackable enemies (i.e. undead-heavy).

[quiet1mi]

for the inspire courage problem (standard action to start)... just put points into performance (poetry) and speak in rhymes all day long.

[JaxGaret]

for the inspire courage problem (standard action to start)... just put points into performance (poetry) and speak in rhymes all day long.

By RAW, that works. There's no rules that say you can't do it, anyway...

[Solo]

Bardic Knack alternative class feature + 1st level spell Improvisation + feat Jack of all trades = make all checks for all skills with a bonus equal to your caster level on top of your ranks in the skill and your ability modifier.

[holywhippet]

I will reiterate that the Bardic Knowledge check that the Bard - and only the Bard - gets can be a godsend at times.

Well, actually the loremaster has the same ability after they reach level 2. Of course, they will be about 8 levels behind at that point.

A bard's song can be extremely powerful when working as part of a large group. It affects everyone within earshot while most spells only work on limited targets or anyone within range. If you are helping to defend a city wall from enemies, all of the soldiers on the walls with you get bonuses when you perform. This is especially powerful when you use something like the Inspire Greatness ability on a bunch of low level fighters. A bonus of 2 D10 hit dice (+CON modifiers) worth of hit points along with a bonus to hit - not many spells even comes close to being that awesome.

As people have been saying, a bards real strengths are helping their companions and filling in gaps in the party in a pinch. Say the cleric has just been paralysed and the other spellcasters have no counter spells on hand. A high level bard can just use the song of freedom to counter it.

[Chronos]

Actually, it's just Inspire Courage that affects everyone in earshot. Inspire Greatness is only a handful, maxing out at 4 targets at level 18. So if you want to buff your party, Inspire Greatness is probably better, but if you've got a city wall with ten thousand Azurites, Inspire Courage is the one you want. I did the math a while ago, and had Elan used his class abilities effectively in that battle, he would have been worth about 6000 regular soldiers.

[Solo]

I have a question.

How good would a bard with Iaijutsu focus+Snowflake Wardance, and Bardic Knack+Improvisation+Jack of All Trades be?

That's 3 feats, but Jack of All Trades comes in at level 6, so we've got an empty slot... maybe for Lingering Song?

[Cuddly]

Jack of All Trades is mostly useful for skills you don't train in. But with improvisation up, you could pretty much have 4 skills that you've never invested ranks in perform just as well as skills you've got maxed out.


(3+char level)/2 + 1/2 caster level. For imp. and jack, anyway.

[Solo]

Jack of All Trades is mostly useful for skills you don't train in. But with improvisation up, you could pretty much have 4 skills that you've never invested ranks in perform just as well as skills you've got maxed out.

You have to have ranks in some skill sin order to make DC checks grater than 10, like Knowledge skills. That's what Jack of All Trades helps with, right? (Gives .5 rank in all skills for the purposes of determining if you're trained or not)

Also, for this character, I'm thinking Perform: Weapon Drill, maybe with an engraved masterwork weapon that gives +2 to the perform check and also can double as a weapon.

By the way, how does Iaijutsu focus work? I've only heard good things about it.

[quiet1mi]

Bardic Knowledge Check - 20

awesome just enough to know about it

when you draw your weapon and attack, against a flat footed opponent you can make the check

having it out, and attacking is not acceptable.

10-15 you add 1d6 to your damage
15-20 2d6
so on and so on until +9d6 damage.

usable on objects for full damage so (at higher levels) you can cut down doors if you take 20 (automatic minimum of +2d6 bonus damage)

also sheathing your weapon is a move action that provokes an attack of opportunity.

my avatar is preforming mega damage with a ghost stepped katana+iaijutsu focus+sudden strike attack

[tyckspoon]

Bardic Knowledge Check - 20

usable on objects for full damage so (at higher levels) you can cut down doors if you take 20 (automatic minimum of 2d6)

Ok, you're either drawing and re-sheathing your weapon 20 times, or you're actually smacking this door 20 times.. either way, it's probably faster to just attack it normally instead of spending the time to take 20 on a damage-improving skill check. Assuming you can take 20 with Iajutsu Focus; it seems like the kind of thing that would not be amenable to trying it over and over on target until you get it just right.. eh, maybe if you spend 20 rounds staring at your target. Still quicker to have your Fighter or Barbarian Power Attack his way through.

[quiet1mi]

taking the 20 would just net the most dice rolled but you could do a fair amount with a good old fashion, single round d20 roll, if you invest into the skill.

[quiet1mi]

my mistake, quick draw is for the surprise round.

if you draw and attack within the same round you are good.

@solo: would make for one interesting character to be packing four short swords and using them on flat footed opponents.... and yes that does make it worth more.

huh where did Solo's post go?

[Solo]

when you draw your weapon and attack, against a flat footed opponent you can make the check

having it out, and attacking is not acceptable.

also sheathing your weapon is a move action that provokes an attack of opportunity.


So would I need a character with Quick Draw and 4 swords to make this effective?


Hmmm.... Bards can cast Grease to make people Flat Footed... I like where this is headed.

[quiet1mi]

from the makers of CODZILLA and BATMAN, we delight to show you ....

(insert catchy name for a bard beast of death and doom)

glad I could help with the creation of a Bard killing machine

[Solo]

from the makers of CODZILLA and BATMAN, we delight to show you ....

(insert catchy name for a bard beast of death and doom)

glad I could help with the creation of a Bard killing machine

While I don't think it's a killing machine, it probably would function quite well as a skillmonkey/secondary combatant

[warmachine]

What good is a Bard? It's an excuse to act in a flamboyant manner, grab the limelight a lot and generally have a laugh.

[Solo]

What good is a Bard? It's an excuse to act in a flamboyant manner, grab the limelight a lot and generally have a laugh.

I'm pretty sure the BattleBard(tm) can do all that.

[Burley]

Where is Iaijutsu Focus? I know there is Iaijutsu Master, from Oriental Adventures, but Iaijutsu Focus is thrown around enough to imply that it was moved to 3.5ed. So, where is it? Also, where is Snowflake Wardance? I assume Frostfell.

What do these do? I may be playing a Bard//Warlock, with focus on the bard side.

[Triaxx]

I've always gone with either ranged attacks from my Bards, or Cleave/Great Cleave combined with grease. The latter is even better with a Keen Scythe. Of course to use music, you need Perform (voice skill).

At low levels, the bard is almost as good as having a second Batman. Grease, Sleep... But don't forget that like the Sorceror, the Bard can also have those great buff's like Cat's Grace, Fox's Cunning, and Eagle's Splendor, and have enough castings for anyone that needs it. Pump anyone with weapon Finesse, make the Batman's spells and his own harder to resist.

Plus he can Rage the Fighter, or learn all of the summon monster abilities, and then heal.

And that's just spell casting.

[The Gilded Duke]

If we are staying just in core, Bard/Assasin actually works out really well. Among other things, fascinate someone for three rounds before you use your death attack. Both classes give spells that help you use sneak attack, you can use your bardic music while an invisible attacker to get bonuses on attack rolls. I always find it works well with a little bit of power attack too. If you go outside core with this type of build you can do in one hit an Arcane Striked, Sneak Attack, Death Attack, True Striked, Power attack boosted with your various bard songs.

If we go outside of core:
Samurai / Bard / Ronin / Warchanter

Samurai gives you BAB and helps set you up to take Ronin. Bard gives inspire courage and helps set you up to take Warchanter.
Ronin gives Bonzai charge: Give up ac to add to damage
Warchanter gives Inspire Recklessness: Give an ally (yourself) the ability to give up ac to add to attack
Bard gives you UMD and spell access to put up non-ac defences.
Pick up Leap Attack and Shock Trooper to give up AC to add x3 to damage