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Emperor Tippy
2008-05-20, 03:35 PM
I would have to go with the Cadre from In Fury Born.

warty goblin
2008-05-20, 04:09 PM
Depends entirely how we evaluate 'best.' Best trained, best equiped, best at holding ground, best at taking ground, best at atmospheric insertions, best at overcoming plot armor, all are valid criteria for bestness.

That said I de-nominate Imperial Stormtroopers from just about everything, and certainly from being able to overcome plot armor.

Emperor Ing
2008-05-20, 04:12 PM
The Imperial Guard
Who needs training, equipment, skill, etc when their regiments are the size of entire armies?
Then again, the Guard sucks without their tanks. That's how they lost the Battle of Waterloo.

Thiel
2008-05-20, 04:17 PM
To me it comes down to a close run between the Cadre from In Fury Born and the MI from Starship troopers.
Both have badass powered armour and are extremely well trained, but I think the MI has an edge in sheer destructive capability.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-20, 04:23 PM
Depends entirely how we evaluate 'best.' Best trained, best equiped, best at holding ground, best at taking ground, best at atmospheric insertions, best at overcoming plot armor, all are valid criteria for bestness.

A combination of all of the above. Although with taking ground being placed above holding ground in msot cases.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-20, 04:25 PM
To me it comes down to a close run between the Cadre from In Fury Born and the MI from Starship troopers.
Both have badass powered armour and are extremely well trained, but I think the MI has an edge in sheer destructive capability.

Yeah, but I think a lot of the MI's destructive edge is because they don't have air support really.

I mean the Cadre can get kinetic interdiction support from space if they need it so they don't really need mini nukes.

EvilDMMk3
2008-05-20, 04:26 PM
NOT Doctor Who's UNIT.

Definitely not.

puppyavenger
2008-05-20, 04:27 PM
Space marines from 40k.

North
2008-05-20, 05:03 PM
The Spartans from 300 :smallbiggrin:

Thiel
2008-05-20, 05:05 PM
Yeah, but I think a lot of the MI's destructive edge is because they don't have air support really.

I mean the Cadre can get kinetic interdiction support from space if they need it so they don't really need mini nukes.

I'm actually fairly certain that the MI has air support available as well. I think Zim mentions it when he talks about why they need to learn how to use a combat knife.

unstattedCommoner
2008-05-20, 05:13 PM
The 95th Rifles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Sharpe_(fictional_character))

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-20, 05:29 PM
The 95th Rifles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Sharpe_(fictional_character))

Yeah, I don't think they would stand up to things like the MI, SM, Cadre, Empress's Own, Wasp's, etc.

@Thiel:
You may be right, I haven't read ST in a while and I don't have my copy handy to check. Although that does beg the question, "Why use nuclear grenades when you can use KEW?"

And the Cadre do have HVW (Hyper Velocity Weapons) which are kiloton level weapons (standard issue when in heavy weapons configuration).

I also think that the base Cadre solider is superior to the base MI solider (no gear). They start off with superior humans, the training is tougher, and their personal augmentation package is far superior. And the tick...

BRC
2008-05-20, 05:35 PM
I'm a fan of the Warhammer 40k Imperial guard. But there are so many different varients, a Catchan guardsmen, for example, is hardly similar to a Tallarn Guardmsen. Personally, my favorite Guard Regiments

Tanith First and Only

The Valhallen 597th (but that's mainly because it includes COMMISSAR CIAPHUS CAIN, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM)

EvilDMMk3
2008-05-20, 05:41 PM
My imperial guard regiment was "recruited" from criminals. Hordes of conscripts, realty violent and dangerous criminals is special squads, herded forwards by Independent Commissars and Commissars in vehicles really really brutal officers.

Thiel
2008-05-20, 05:50 PM
You may be right, I haven't read ST in a while and I don't have my copy handy to check. Although that does beg the question, "Why use nuclear grenades when you can use KEW?"
I think it comes down to scale, delivery time and the enemy they're up against.
A PeeVee effectively destroys everything inside a kilometre making it far easier to deploy than a KEW that requires you to evacuate the entire area so taht your troops won't get hit by the shockwave. Mind, I'm assuming C-fractional strikes here. I haven't read In Fury Born for quite some time but I think that's what they use.
On top of that it take a lot of time to set up an orbital strike. Even if you're just going to drop something from orbit it still requires that you move a spaceship into position in order to drop it, and if you're going for a C-fractional strike you'll have to leave orbit entirely in order to attain the necessary speed. A PeeVee on the other hand, you just launch and dive for cover.
Lastly there's the enemy. The Cadre fights human opponents that utilize roughly the same type of equipment as the Cadre. Powered armour, automatic weapons, prepared positions and I think the occasional armoured vehicle pops up as well. And most importantly, they fight above ground.
The MI on the other hand is fighting against a race of giant insects that live in underground hives. This makes targeting them from orbit extremely hard and there's a good chance that they'll be buried deep enough to survive a KEW strike. In this case it makes more sense to bring a nuke with you (since you're already going down there) set the timer and evacuate to a safe distance.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-20, 06:03 PM
I think it comes down to scale, delivery time and the enemy they're up against.
A PeeVee effectively destroys everything inside a kilometre making it far easier to deploy than a KEW that requires you to evacuate the entire area so taht your troops won't get hit by the shockwave. Mind, I'm assuming C-fractional strikes here. I haven't read In Fury Born for quite some time but I think that's what they use.
Actually they can be for more precise than that. They don't use C-Fractional strikes as tactical weapons.


On top of that it take a lot of time to set up an orbital strike. Even if you're just going to drop something from orbit it still requires that you move a spaceship into position in order to drop it, and if you're going for a C-fractional strike you'll have to leave orbit entirely in order to attain the necessary speed. A PeeVee on the other hand, you just launch and dive for cover.
The ship is usually in orbit already and as I said, you don't need or want c-fractional strikes. And it is actually a better idea to compare HVW's to PV's (both are hand held).


Lastly there's the enemy. The Cadre fights human opponents that utilize roughly the same type of equipment as the Cadre. Powered armour, automatic weapons, prepared positions and I think the occasional armoured vehicle pops up as well. And most importantly, they fight above ground.
They also fight those aliens, Rith or something like that.


The MI on the other hand is fighting against a race of giant insects that live in underground hives. This makes targeting them from orbit extremely hard and there's a good chance that they'll be buried deep enough to survive a KEW strike. In this case it makes more sense to bring a nuke with you (since you're already going down there) set the timer and evacuate to a safe distance.

See, thats when the empire just fires a SLAM at the world and moves on. Bug problem solved.

MeklorIlavator
2008-05-20, 06:06 PM
Ah, weaponized blackholes, is there anything you can't slove?

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-20, 06:10 PM
Ah, weaponized blackholes, is there anything you can't slove?

The Andromeda Ascendant stopping by. :D

That being the only other universe I can think of that has weaponized black holes in it.

Hmm. I wonder what universe's could take the Terran Empire without massive numerical superiority (like the IoM or Systems Commonwealth, although the SC prolly doesn't need said size to win).

MeklorIlavator
2008-05-20, 06:23 PM
Harrington universe or the Crusade/In Dead Ground/The Shiva Option/Insurrection might all work. Mostly because each sides naval fights work in similar enough ways, yet with subtle differences.

Plus, I believe that the Honerverse ships have both the best engines and the best missiles. I don't have hard numbers, but from what I remember, the are the fastest out of all the universes, and is doesn't seem like much can beat the impeller wedge.

Thiel
2008-05-20, 06:30 PM
Actually they can be for more precise than that. They don't use C-Fractional strikes as tactical weapons.
I never said that they weren't accurate, I just said that a C-fractional strike has quite a blast range. But since we aren't dealing with those, that's a moot point.


The ship is usually in orbit already and as I said, you don't need or want c-fractional strikes.
I'm going to add another point to my argument. Scale of engagement. The Cadre fights fairly small sized engagements. The one described in the book takes place in an area a couple of hundred kilometres from end to end. The MI on the other hand fights on a planet wide scale. Sure, they're involved i a couple of small scale engagements as well, but those are purely smash and bash raids. This means that their ships have to cover a far larger area making it necessary to move around in order to get a shot on the target. After all, having a ship in polar orbit won't do you a fat load of good if you want to strike a target in Kuwait.


And it is actually a better idea to compare HVW's to PV's (both are hand held). Not quite. While a HVW is a truly devastating weapon (Practically a handheld KEW) it doesn't have the blast range of a PeeVee. It might be better to think of it as a LAW type weapon, since that's how they use them. (Blasting vehicles and dug in positions.)



They also fight those aliens, Rith or something like that.
But unlike the bugs, the Rith fight more or less like humans. They tend to be quite a bit more motivated, I'll give you that, but their way of waging war is essentially the same. Add to that the fact that the Rith, unlike the Bugs, are behind the humans technology-wise.
The Rith are essentially Rubberforehead aliens whereas the Bugs are truly alien.


See, thats when the empire just fires a SLAM at the world and moves on. Bug problem solved.
That's where Zims little talk about overkill kicks in. After all, what if you want to use the planet afterwards? Unless you want to make the galaxy's largest ice..erh.. glass skating resort you won't really be able to use it for anything afterwards.


Hmm. I wonder what universe's could take the Terran Empire without massive numerical superiority (like the IoM or Systems Commonwealth, although the SC prolly doesn't need said size to win).
I'll give this one to the Honorverse. They know how to detect gravity (Ie. Black holes) and they can see where they're going. Their ships also seems to be far more capable in general. Well except for those AI ships, but they don't seem to mount weapons powerful enough to seriously threaten an SD.
I wonder how a black hole would react to an impeller missile.:smallconfused:

MeklorIlavator
2008-05-20, 06:32 PM
Uhhh, a slam would tear the planet apart, so its a weapon of somewhat last resort.

Thiel
2008-05-20, 06:40 PM
Uhhh, a slam would tear the planet apart, so its a weapon of somewhat last resort.

Okay, so you wont be able to open a skating resort.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-20, 06:57 PM
I'm going to add another point to my argument. Scale of engagement. The Cadre fights fairly small sized engagements. The one described in the book takes place in an area a couple of hundred kilometres from end to end. The MI on the other hand fights on a planet wide scale. Sure, they're involved i a couple of small scale engagements as well, but those are purely smash and bash raids. This means that their ships have to cover a far larger area making it necessary to move around in order to get a shot on the target. After all, having a ship in polar orbit won't do you a fat load of good if you want to strike a target in Kuwait.
Yeah, the Wasp's would be a better comparison for all up wars.


Not quite. While a HVW is a truly devastating weapon (Practically a handheld KEW) it doesn't have the blast range of a PeeVee. It might be better to think of it as a LAW type weapon, since that's how they use them. (Blasting vehicles and dug in positions.)
They are kiloton range weapons. Not quite sure what range the PV's are.


But unlike the bugs, the Rith fight more or less like humans. They tend to be quite a bit more motivated, I'll give you that, but their way of waging war is essentially the same. Add to that the fact that the Rith, unlike the Bugs, are behind the humans technology-wise.
The Rith are essentially Rubberforehead aliens whereas the Bugs are truly alien.
True.


That's where Zims little talk about overkill kicks in. After all, what if you want to use the planet afterwards? Unless you want to make the galaxy's largest ice..erh.. glass skating resort you won't really be able to use it for anything afterwards.
The Terran Empire already has over a thousand worlds, whats 1 more previously human uninhabited world?


I'll give this one to the Honorverse. They know how to detect gravity (Ie. Black holes) and they can see where they're going. Their ships also seems to be far more capable in general. Well except for those AI ships, but they don't seem to mount weapons powerful enough to seriously threaten an SD.
I wonder how a black hole would react to an impeller missile.:smallconfused:

Yeah, I thought of them but what polity, and I also have no idea how black holes interact with Impeller Wedges/Sidewalls (and thats a very important question).

BRC
2008-05-20, 06:58 PM
Wait, is this which is the best combat wise, which is the best on a squad level, or which is our favorite

Thiel
2008-05-20, 07:03 PM
Wait, is this which is the best combat wise, which is the best on a squad level, or which is our favorite
Pretty much all of the above, though we seem to have settled squad based combat.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-20, 07:05 PM
Wait, is this which is the best combat wise, which is the best on a squad level, or which is our favorite

Best individual soldiers and best on a tactical level (squads/companies).

Mr. Scaly
2008-05-20, 07:16 PM
My nominee for 'best in a midievil fantasy setting' is the First Dragon Army Engineering Regiment.

Anybody need a bridge built when the far bank is teeming with elven archers and dragons patrol the river?

Thiel
2008-05-20, 07:21 PM
If we're going for fantasy I'll say either the Bridgeburners or one of the Engineering troops from the Malazan Empire. Sharpers anyone?

warty goblin
2008-05-20, 08:04 PM
Just a note on the whole nuke vs. kinetic interdiction strike debate against enemies in underground hives- the KIS would actually be better than the nuke for all practical purposes. A nuke delivers its energy in an expanding sphere, so unless you actually get it inside the hive, a lot of the energy is going to go outwards and upwards, and so be wasted. A direct KIS however will deliver all of it's energy downwards into the hive, meaning that to obtain the same level of dead-insectness, you would need only a fraction of the energy in the KIS when compared to the nuke.

MeklorIlavator
2008-05-20, 08:08 PM
Plus, nukes tend to deliver large amounts of radiation to the area, while KIS strikes do not, therefore they are much better if you want substantial use out of the planet afterwards.


Also, isn't it stated in Starship Troopers that if the bugs are dug in, it make more sense to destroy the planet with the planet busting nukes, and that the only reason they didn't at the beginning is that they didn't have access to such technology?

SurlySeraph
2008-05-20, 11:24 PM
The Adeptus Custodes: making Space Marines look weak since before the Heresy.

kpenguin
2008-05-21, 12:30 AM
Yeah, I don't think they would stand up to things like the MI, SM, Cadre, Empress's Own, Wasp's, etc.


Because comparing Napoleonic War era soldiers to science fiction soldiers is completely fair.

Talkkno
2008-05-21, 12:35 AM
That said I de-nominate Imperial Stormtroopers from just about everything, and certainly from being able to overcome plot armor.

:smallmad: This is likely the only I'm going to say, since I argued over this too many times to count.
"During the Endor battle, the most likely reason for the lack of grenade use is volatility and simple overconfidence. Inside the bunker, with its important equipment and the Rebels' explosive charges all over the walls, it would have obviously been insane to use grenades. Outside the bunker, they were felled by simple overconfidence. Their light armament reveals deplorable overconfidence (the scout troopers had handguns, the stormtroopers had carbines, and they didn't bother carrying any of the heavy weapons we saw in ANH or TESB), so it's really no surprise that they didn't bother carrying grenades. Before we leap to the conclusion that such foolishness is impossible in the Emperor's "finest troops", I would urge readers to study the example of the US Army's elite Rangers, SEALs, and Delta Force commandos in Somalia. During a disastrous mission in which two Blackhawk helicopters were shot down, they demonstrated exactly the kind of overconfidence that I'm describing. They arrogantly performed what should have been a night operation in broad daylight, and they didn't bother bringing any "unnecessary" dead weight, such as water canteens, bayonets, or night-sight equipment. Some of them even removed the armour plates from their flak jackets, so they would be more comfortable in the heat! Worse yet, mission security was horrendous; Somali staff at the U.S. Embassy easily discovered the time and place of the mission, and forwarded this information to Aidid's men! The problems didn't even stop there; they had no heavy reinforcements or armour in case of serious resistance, and they only had one rescue team, which became a huge problem when not one, but two choppers went down. They couldn't even co-ordinate their activities; the Rangers and Delta Force commandos butted heads over tactics and chain of command, and an Orion spy plane wasn't permitted to give direct instructions to the men on the ground even though it was the only platform with a clear view of what was happening. The litany of mistakes continued with the rescue convoys, which literally got lost and ambushed en route to the crash site because of unfamiliarity with the city streets and poor direction from the helicopters above. In the confusion, the Americans fired on anyone with a gun, and then anyone who was around someone with a gun, and eventually, at anything that moved, thus causing hundreds of civilian casualties. A simple mission to kidnap two men turned into a chaotic 12 hour firefight, in which nearly a hundred American soldiers were killed or wounded. If this were a fictional war story, it would have been lambasted for being hopelessly unrealistic. People would say "no real soldiers would be so incompetent". But these men were not incompetent; they were overconfident and inadequately prepared. They demonstrated to the world (at least, the part of the world that reads books instead of getting all their information from action movies) that even the best trained, best equipped soldiers can still can be stymied by poor preparation and the inherent difficulties of combat in difficult and unfamiliar terrain."

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-21, 12:54 AM
Somali was a Rangers **** up. And while the rangers are good they aren't anywhere near Delta, SAS, SEALS, or Fore Recon.

Pretty much everything that went wrong with Somali was on the rangers. The delta force guys were the ones who went in prepared (who had their night vision goggles and who didn't?)

There's a reason that only the best rangers get to try out for Delta and the Green Beret's and only the best of those are selected.

----
As for the storm troopers, they don't even come close to most of the units named in this thread.

The Boyce
2008-05-21, 01:16 AM
Weren't the Dragonborn considered the Infantry during the 1st Age of Exalted?

Cuddly
2008-05-21, 01:20 AM
The Terran Empire already has over a thousand worlds, whats 1 more previously human uninhabited world?

Loss of a staging area into other worlds, I would assume.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-21, 02:42 AM
Loss of a staging area into other worlds, I would assume.

There are lots of other worlds. And why do they need a staging area? It's not like they are planning a war.

LBO
2008-05-21, 02:53 AM
Adeptus Custodes.

Indon
2008-05-21, 10:37 AM
Weren't the Dragonborn considered the Infantry during the 1st Age of Exalted?

Aye. They had power armor, though.

So are we talking about unarmored infantry, or do power armor/mechs count? 'cause we could bring the Clans and Inner Sphere powers into this.

Thiel
2008-05-21, 10:44 AM
I'd say power armour counts since the MI has Exo Suits, the Wasps and the Cadre has Power Armour and the Royal Manticoran Marines has Battle Armour.

Nathan
2008-05-21, 07:12 PM
If we're talking squad based, then ARC Troopers. If we're talking about "What infantry would I take to defend/attack" then it would be the Zerg from Starcraft.

Foeofthelance
2008-05-21, 07:43 PM
For sheer balls, the 10,000 from Legacy of the Aldenata. Regular, unarmored infantry command that is used to stop Zergling rushes, only the Zerglings are armed with plasma cannons, flechette rifles, and HV missile launchers as well as teeth and claws. For these guys it is literally win or be eaten, and the other side normally has forces numbering in the millions.

EvilElitest
2008-05-21, 10:16 PM
The Spartans from 300 :smallbiggrin:

as in the movie? Oh come on, at least a movie with real quality
from
EE

BRC
2008-05-21, 10:18 PM
For sheer balls, the 10,000 from Legacy of the Aldenata. Regular, unarmored infantry command that is used to stop Zergling rushes, only the Zerglings are armed with plasma cannons, flechette rifles, and HV missile launchers as well as teeth and claws. For these guys it is literally win or be eaten, and the other side normally has forces numbering in the millions.
Not Unarmored, it sounds like they have full Plate Plot Armor

kpenguin
2008-05-21, 10:29 PM
How about the Ten Thousand? I think they were real, but accounts of their exploits are rather sensationalized.

Child Conscript
2008-05-22, 03:50 AM
To be honest, I don't care about all the future soldiers because in my heart, Dads Army were and still are the best :smallbiggrin:

Storm Bringer
2008-05-22, 06:16 AM
actaully, sometime in the 1970's, they did a full on wargame exercise of Operation Sealion (the german invasion of england), with more of less historical line ups for the two sides (i'm told the RAF was hamstrung for the wargame, in order to let the invasion actaully happen). After taking into account the status and training of the Home Guard and british regulars, they realised that, odds on, they could stop the german assault short of london. Not much, maybe 20 or so miles, but still, the british defense plans would have worked for long enough for the Royal Navy to intervene and cut the german supply lines.

Dads army could have taken on the german army at height of it's power and won.

LBO
2008-05-22, 06:40 AM
The reason for that is that Sealion was so hilariously awfully hopeless, rather than the Home Guard being particularly capable.

http://www.philm.demon.co.uk/Miscellaneous/Sealion.htm

black dragoon
2008-05-22, 10:11 AM
Roman Legion anyone? THey were the first real military that was trained and setup like a modern force. That and they took over much of the known world.

BRC
2008-05-22, 04:19 PM
Roman Legion anyone? THey were the first real military that was trained and setup like a modern force. That and they took over much of the world they knew about.
Fixed it for ya. Pretty much the entire world was "Known" at that point, not by europeans, but by somebody. Technically, Alexsander the great conquered the Known World, technically an isolated island tribe may conquer the known world by controlling their island.

EvilDMMk3
2008-05-22, 05:28 PM
Dads army could have taken on the german army at height of it's power and won.

This also assumes that the Royal Navy are morons, have you any idea how long it would have taken to weaken the navy enough such that an invasion fleet could get a shot at landing?

The only invasion that could have worked would have been a mass paratrooper invasion. And the logistics problems with that alone...

Jerthanis
2008-05-22, 07:31 PM
I'm going to second the Roman legions for a different reason. If you were writing a Fantasy novel and wanted to convey just how awesome a certain army is, all you're really saying in 90% of cases is, "Like the Roman Legions, but..." where that sentence is concluded with "...with laser pistols" or "...On the backs of giant hippopotamuses." or "...With magical powers." and so on.

The only exception is when they're "Like the Mongol Hordes, but..."

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-22, 07:46 PM
The Iron Warriors.


IRON WITHIN! IRON WITHOUT!

http://uk.games-workshop.com/chaosspacemarines/ironwarriors/images/legionbadge.gif

freerangetroll
2008-05-22, 11:12 PM
I'm going to second the Roman legions for a different reason. If you were writing a Fantasy novel and wanted to convey just how awesome a certain army is, all you're really saying in 90% of cases is, "Like the Roman Legions, but..." where that sentence is concluded with "...with laser pistols" or "...On the backs of giant hippopotamuses." or "...With magical powers." and so on.

The only exception is when they're "Like the Mongol Hordes, but..."

Being a bit of a fantasy snob here. If any author compared a military force to the Roman legions without either A.) the character making the observation having come from earth, or B.) being a pratchet-esque style of writing. I would probably start laughing hysterically.

A novels content can only be expressed through the lens of its character's perspectives and knowledge.

/end snobbery.

But I get what you were saying.

Verruckt
2008-05-23, 05:30 AM
May have already been brought up, but the reason that the MI don't just mini nuke everything is addressed during knife throwing training by Zim after someone spouts off about "why bother learning how to use a knife when we have nukes?" Zim responds with "Would you spank a baby with an ax?" much of the tactics of the MI are based on the psychological effects of big armored super soldiers jumping around on you roofs, tossing nukes hither and thither and throwing 30 second bombs around. Using a smash and bash raid is much more economical that glassing an area from orbit, plus raids leave scorched, half dead survivors, or as I like to call them, "message force multipliers" :belkar: That's why the bugs give them trouble, because bugs don't give a **** how scary you are, or how many of them you nuke, they'll make more, and force you to fight on their terms. Anyway, I think I really need to read this "in fury born" book. Also, as presented by Eric Nylund, the SPARTAN II are very very effective surgical assault troops. (say what you will about the games, Eric Nylund's books are damn good)

LBO
2008-05-23, 05:51 AM
The Iron Warriors.


IRON WITHIN! IRON WITHOUT!

http://uk.games-workshop.com/chaosspacemarines/ironwarriors/images/legionbadge.gif
God damn, I loved Storm of Iron. 400 pages of "The Iron Warriors are FRICKING AWESOME", again and again and again.

Course, the Custodes still win (http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u320/LBO_photos/picture039.png).

Dallas-Dakota
2008-05-23, 06:26 AM
The Cookiemanjaran empire royal elite guards. They can EVERYTHING with cookies. Ninja throwing star cookies, Pirate ship cookies, lolcat cookies, internet cookies. Seriously, everything.

EvilDMMk3
2008-05-23, 06:36 AM
Imperial Guard regiments from Schola Progenium. Strom troopers, grenedeers and Commissars oh my!

bosssmiley
2008-05-23, 10:52 AM
The Adeptus Custodes: making Space Marines look weak since before the Heresy.

I think that should read: "Looking like a bunch of half-dressed Torquemada knock-offs since they days of 'Rogue Trader'." :smalltongue:

No, I'm not kidding. Look at the early Adaptus Custodes art, then look at the various Terminator orders from early (Bryan Talbot-illustrated) "Nemesis the Warlock" strips. See it now? Yeah.

Best military. "Dune" (the classic Frank stories, not the epic fail that has come since) - either the Imperial Sardaukar (the original sci-fi Spartan Way (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheSpartanWay) training regime), or possibly their successors the Freman legions of the Great Jihad.

v-- *cough* Leto's Spice monopoly *cough*

SolkaTruesilver
2008-05-23, 11:10 AM
Best military. "Dune" (the classic Frank stories, not the epic fail that has come since) - either the Imperial Sardaukar (the original sci-fi Spartan Way (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheSpartanWay) training regime), or possibly their successors the Freman legions of the Great Jihad.

Dude, the Fremen are just even more awesome than the Sardaukar ever were. After all, it was said that all the houses could beat the Emperor's legions, but the Fremen went alone against the whole universe and converted everybody by blood!

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-23, 03:10 PM
Also, as presented by Eric Nylund, the SPARTAN II are very very effective surgical assault troops. (say what you will about the games, Eric Nylund's books are damn good)
Yes they are.

Satyr
2008-05-23, 03:20 PM
The most powerful infantry unit - a well-trained frontline binary star of Clan Elementals with full battle armor. Everything that kills tanks in mechs in melee is hard to overestimate.

Don Julio Anejo
2008-05-24, 08:14 PM
Real-life modern stuff? SAS, Delta, Vympel (Soviet version of the above). If you look at actual combat infantry, not surgical strike teams that run for 200 miles, fight for all of 30 seconds, plant a big bomb and get the bleep out, chances are it's the US Army Rangers. Other countries simply don't have the resources to train that many people to that level of skill and at the same time equip them and give them enough support. A few units like the French Foreign Legion would come in close, but hey, it's the French. When did they know how to fight when not led by Napoleon?

Real-life ancient stuff? Any Greek phalanx-based army and their elite units like the Spartiates and the Sacred Band.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-24, 08:18 PM
SPESS MEHREENS.mootblock

Child Conscript
2008-05-24, 08:49 PM
Now really, If we are going to compare forces we need to put them in situations. For example you cant really expect some super-human army to be very good at Peace Keeping, "Sir!, Sir! can you help me cross the road?". "Terminate!!". "Oh Shi-"
*BOOM*

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-24, 09:02 PM
The Battle Brothers of the Adeptus Astartes do not 'peace-keep'. They pacify at the trigger end of a bolter.

Don Julio Anejo
2008-05-24, 09:25 PM
Now really, If we are going to compare forces we need to put them in situations. For example you cant really expect some super-human army to be very good at Peace Keeping, "Sir!, Sir! can you help me cross the road?". "Terminate!!". "Oh Shi-"
*BOOM*
You wouldn't throw super-elite military organizations to do peacekeeping and make commandos help old ladies cross the road. It's a waste of talent, it's a waste of resources and it's the waste of a unit itself which could spend this time fighting where they're really needed, and if they're not needed - training so they can get even more effective. Just as you wouldn't send some peacekeepers who are really good with people and old ladies to blow up an enemy dockyard or hold the center of a battle line - they'll just get themselves killed.

Child Conscript
2008-05-24, 11:28 PM
Tell that to U.S.A and the U.N.

They have many infantry units based across the world, just to name a few
Sudan
East Timor
Afghanistan
Iraq
Bouganville
Philippines
and many more. . .
Face it, There are many Elite Forces/Armies helping to enforce peace and "Democracy" (Communism works!!) Even George Bush said that Soldiers are trained to win wars, not be Babysitters. But now that everybody is best mates there is no need for full, big armies cause there is a new name for conflict, Terrorism and Guerrilla warfare tactics because its the only way to beat a larger force. So the real need for Armies has diminished, Its still there but Diminished so to answer for the call of Peace keepers they are now sending in special forces and other elite infantry units to P.K hot spots.
also I used that as an EXAMPLE for situational superiority.

Jerthanis
2008-05-25, 03:05 AM
Being a bit of a fantasy snob here. If any author compared a military force to the Roman legions without either A.) the character making the observation having come from earth, or B.) being a pratchet-esque style of writing. I would probably start laughing hysterically.

A novels content can only be expressed through the lens of its character's perspectives and knowledge.

/end snobbery.

But I get what you were saying.

I'm sorry, I didn't make it clear, I meant that the author was saying (indirectly) "They're like the Romans, but...", not the characters in the story saying that. I was trying to say that authors who depict fantasy armies as efficient, capable, deadly and implacable are in a way just describing the Roman legions, and adding something or taking something away to make THESE romans different enough that it isn't seen as quite a ripoff.

Ugh, I'm sorry... what I mean is: The efficiency and logistical skill of the Roman legions were so legendary that they have inspired a great number of minds even in the modern day to create images in their likeness.

Mr. Scaly
2008-05-25, 07:40 PM
Here's a thought. What is it that all these units have in common? What makes a really great military unit? Training? Fanaticism? Mindset?

Verruckt
2008-05-25, 08:09 PM
Tell that to U.S.A and the U.N.

They have many infantry units based across the world, just to name a few
Sudan
East Timor
Afghanistan
Iraq
Bouganville
Philippines
and many more. . .
Face it, There are many Elite Forces/Armies helping to enforce peace and "Democracy" (Communism works!!) Even George Bush said that Soldiers are trained to win wars, not be Babysitters. But now that everybody is best mates there is no need for full, big armies cause there is a new name for conflict, Terrorism and Guerrilla warfare tactics because its the only way to beat a larger force. So the real need for Armies has diminished, Its still there but Diminished so to answer for the call of Peace keepers they are now sending in special forces and other elite infantry units to P.K hot spots.
also I used that as an EXAMPLE for situational superiority.

Hehehe. Oh innocence, the sweet blossom of naiveté. Mr. Heinlein, white courtesy phone, paging Mr. Heinlein, white courtesy phone. I think he'd like to introduce you to the original enforcers of imperial fascism in big bad power armor :smallamused:


Here's a thought. What is it that all these units have in common? What makes a really great military unit? Training? Fanaticism? Mindset?

You know, i think the thing that unites nearly all of these groups are a fanatical devotion to Imperial Fascism and a big suit of power armor, well, the Army Rangers don't have power armor :belkar:

Mr. Scaly
2008-05-25, 08:19 PM
You know, i think the thing that unites nearly all of these groups are a fanatical devotion to Imperial Fascism and a big suit of power armor, well, the Army Rangers don't have power armor :belkar:

Admittedly I skipped over a bunch of names listed, but I don't think that fanaticism is the most important part. I think that discipline is the most important thing to have, Otherwise the unit is just a mob.

Though power armour would sure help. :smalltongue:

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-25, 08:38 PM
Hehehe. Oh innocence, the sweet blossom of naiveté. Mr. Heinlein, white courtesy phone, paging Mr. Heinlein, white courtesy phone. I think he'd like to introduce you to the original enforcers of imperial fascism in big bad power armor :smallamused:

You know, i think the thing that unites nearly all of these groups are a fanatical devotion to Imperial Fascism and a big suit of power armor, well, the Army Rangers don't have power armor :belkar:
Fascism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism) doesn't mean exactly what you seem to think it means. The only representatives of a fascist power are the 40K ones.

Verruckt
2008-05-25, 08:45 PM
Uh, have you read starship troopers, not traditional fascism but definitely derived from it.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-25, 08:57 PM
Uh, have you read starship troopers, not traditional fascism but definitely derived from it.

Yes, I've read it.


Fascism is a government, faction, movement, or political philosophy that raises nationalism, and frequently race, above the individual and is characterized by a centralized autocratic state governed by a dictatorial head, stringent organization of the economy and society, and aggressive repression of opposition.
Most military forces raise the good of the state above the good of the solider, it being hard to get said soldiers to die for the state if they value themselves more than the sate.

ST doesn't have a centralized, autocratic state governed by a dictatorial head. It is actually a democratic republic, like the US. The fact that you gain the franchise through service instead of race, age, sex, or property and that everyone has the right to serve makes it a less fascist government than the one layed out in the US Constitution and Bill of Rights.

ST has capitalism and the main characters father is a business owner.

In fact, based on all the evidence given of the ST society, it is less fascist than a lot of real world nations.

freerangetroll
2008-05-25, 09:03 PM
I'm sorry, I didn't make it clear, I meant that the author was saying (indirectly) "They're like the Romans, but...", not the characters in the story saying that. I was trying to say that authors who depict fantasy armies as efficient, capable, deadly and implacable are in a way just describing the Roman legions, and adding something or taking something away to make THESE romans different enough that it isn't seen as quite a ripoff.

Ugh, I'm sorry... what I mean is: The efficiency and logistical skill of the Roman legions were so legendary that they have inspired a great number of minds even in the modern day to create images in their likeness.

No harm no foul. I read a lot of rubbish that does stuff like that on a daily basis. It tends to make me vocal. :smallwink: