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GoC
2008-05-22, 10:59 AM
This is based on the "The Game: Playgrounders Vs. a Space Marine" thread but modified to include all playgrounders!

The situation:
You receive a package in the mail letter one day. Inside it is a small cellphone sized object that activates once the package is opened. A holographic recording appears:
Welcome, your name has been drawn for The Game. You cannot turn down this invitation as your opponent has already been brought to your planet. The Game is about survival, and the only way to win is to bring about the premature death of your opponent. You are not alone on this as every other person who has posted on the Playground has also received this message.
Here are the rules:
1. You are not to contact any police or military force about The Game. Doing so will result in immediate vaporization of you and your fellow Playgrounders.
2. Ten days from now at 1200 GMT you and your fellow competitors will be transported to an unknown, uninhabited mountainous and wooded location to fight against your enemy. Anything you are carrying or wearing will also be transported with you.
3. Your teams wins if you successfully destroy your opponent's body and gear.
If you win each survivor will be awarded 500 kilograms of gold. The death of every Playgrounder will result in your opponent's return to it's homeworld.
Have a nice day.

The cellphone-thingy then morphs into a fully functional and loaded Glock 23 with "The Game" embossed on the side. A small unremovable tattoo with The Game printed in black appears on your wrist.

The parameters of the challenge are as follows:

1. For the purposes of this thread Warhammer 40k as both a novel or wargame don't exist in your world.
2. The Space Marine is equipped with the following: 1 heavy bolter, 1 chain sword, Generic Power Armor. But he can take as many armor patches, spare parts, ammunition and civilian items as he can carry.
3. You are not capable of using any of the Space Marine's equipment should you capture it.
4. Neither you or the Space Marine are aware of who your target is. You are both given very big hints, but nothing truly concrete. The Space Marine is given information regarding earth at the same time you are.

Can you win or will the playground perish?

Oslecamo
2008-05-22, 11:07 AM
Ten days making cocktails molotovs, and learning how to throw them effeciently. Those babies blow up tanks, and SM still need to breath oxygen last time I checked.

I'll also buy some camouplhage cloacks, or at least don't wear anything too shiny.

The SM, due to the size and colourfull armor, will surely be much easier to spot than me.

Even if I die, the explosion of my molotovs will warn my teammates in a large radius to the location of our comon enemy.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-05-22, 11:10 AM
Ten days making cocktails molotovs, and learning how to throw them effeciently. Those babies blow up tanks, and SM still need to breath oxygen last time I checked.

I'll also buy some camouplhage cloacks, or at least don't wear anything too shiny.

The SM, due to the size and colourfull armor, will surely be much easier to spot than me.

Even if I die, the explosion of my molotovs will warn my teammates in a large radius to the location of our comon enemy.You forgot, flaming is against the forum rules.

Solo
2008-05-22, 11:14 AM
Ten days making cocktails molotovs, and learning how to throw them effeciently. Those babies blow up tanks, and SM still need to breath oxygen last time I checked.
They only blow up tanks if you stick them in an exhaust pipe.

You wanna run up to a tank and stick one in it's exhaust pipe?

Fri
2008-05-22, 11:21 AM
Define Carrying.

In about a few minutes before the teleportation, I'll be hanging around a military base, and I'll manage to touch a working tank or a heavy weapon, or even, I'll just touch/hug a weapon storage. I know I can do that without being shipped into an assylum, charisma and intelligence isn't my dump stat (you don't become a freelance journalist without knowing some link/knowing how to bull**** someone).

If it's considered "carrying," the weapon storage will be transported with me for playgrounder's pleasure. Though, chances are nobody know how to use them.

Haruki-kun
2008-05-22, 11:25 AM
PFFFFT!!!!

They are in WAY over their heads if they think they can take us on!

Skippy
2008-05-22, 11:35 AM
3. Your teams wins if you successfully destroy your opponent's body and gear.
If you win each survivor will be awarded 500 kilograms of gold. The death of every Playgrounder will result in your opponent's return to it's homeworld.
Have a nice day.


I have never played Warhammer 40K but I wanted to make an annotation here. If you give that much gold, it will become worthless. Laws of economy.

Fri
2008-05-22, 11:39 AM
Which side are you again :D?

Of course 99% chance I'll be dead. No big deal. My responsibilities are limited just to bring the weaponry.

A single space marine can alter the course of REAL battle, so a bunch of nerd and geek isn't going to do much.

Oslecamo
2008-05-22, 11:40 AM
They only blow up tanks if you stick them in an exhaust pipe.

You wanna run up to a tank and stick one in it's exhaust pipe?

Ok, maybe blowing up the tank isn't that easy, but killing the crew(or make them come out) is. The burning combustible slips trough all the holes of the tank, turning the vehicle into an oven, making the air inside irresperable and greatly raising the temperature. The crew either comes out or dies painfully.

There's a reason why they are still used today against top technology tanks.

The only real problem is geting close enough to throw it in the first place.

Now a marine has no way of quickly geting out of his armor, so if a molotv hits him he's going down either sufocated or cooked.

GoC
2008-05-22, 11:50 AM
Define Carrying.

In about a few minutes before the teleportation, I'll be hanging around a military base, and I'll manage to touch a working tank or a heavy weapon, or even, I'll just touch/hug a weapon storage. I know I can do that without being shipped into an assylum, charisma and intelligence isn't my dump stat (you don't become a freelance journalist without knowing some link/knowing how to bull**** someone).

If it's considered "carrying," the weapon storage will be transported with me for playgrounder's pleasure. Though, chances are nobody know how to use them.

Carrying is where you are using your own muscle power to lift an object off the ground.
First post updated so SM gets some flexibility.

Revlid
2008-05-22, 12:18 PM
I would be carrying a huge banner with the words "I'm on your side, Space Marine - For The Emperor!".

I would find an isolated corner of the battlefield and plant the flag, before crouching down, hiding behind what cover I could find.

Inhuman Bot
2008-05-22, 12:27 PM
Easy. Look at my name. I would eat his soul. Victory playground. Or get into a imperial preist garb, and get a flag akin to Revlid's.

Renegade Paladin
2008-05-22, 12:33 PM
First: Molotov cocktails do not destroy tanks. You've been playing Grand Theft Auto too much. Secondly, we'd all die.

GoC
2008-05-22, 12:43 PM
First: Molotov cocktails do not destroy tanks. You've been playing Grand Theft Auto too much. Secondly, we'd all die.

That depends on how smart you are.:smallwink:
Rocket launchers are hard to get hold off but they'll cause quite a lot of damage. The problem is getting the very experienced supersoldier to come out into the open in front of twenty thousand armed people...

Oslecamo
2008-05-22, 12:43 PM
First: Molotov cocktails do not destroy tanks. You've been playing Grand Theft Auto too much. Secondly, we'd all die.

O' really?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov_cocktail

Disabling is almost the same as destroying. Wait, it's even better, since a disabled vehcile can be captured and used again.

SolkaTruesilver
2008-05-22, 12:53 PM
As I said earlier, let's just try to lure him in a basement (a very deep one) which would be under a very big building.

Blow up the building in a way it crumble upon itself.

That's the only thing I can think of that could actually kill a space marine with our actual technology, short of tactical missiles.

Renegade Paladin
2008-05-22, 01:23 PM
O' really?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov_cocktail

Disabling is almost the same as destroying. Wait, it's even better, since a disabled vehcile can be captured and used again.
Wheeeeee, Wikipedia. :smallamused: Find a real source. If a Molotov cocktail's damage looks like this (http://www.zombietime.com/world_cant_wait_sf_11-2-2005/part_3/IMG_3555.JPG) (and, in point of fact, the burn mark is where a hurled Molotov cocktail struck the San Francisco Chronicle building during a protest on November 2, 2005), then I have a hard time believing that a modern armored vehicle would be destroyed. A T-26 maybe, because they suck, but anything designed within the last couple of decades?

It's a moot point anyway; you would get close enough to neither a modern tank nor a Space Marine for one to be of any use.

Cybren
2008-05-22, 01:25 PM
I'd calmly explain the implausibilities of the scenario, the space marines, Warhammer 40k, and the technology and 'science' that allows for them all. He will cease to exist.

SurlySeraph
2008-05-22, 01:32 PM
We've got 20,000 of us. Eventually the Space Marine will run out of bolter rounds. The chainsword is a problem, but the motor's going to jam eventually, especially if we throw logs at it or some of our pudgier Playgrounders leap upon it. At that point, the Marine will be armed with nothing more than incredible strength and metal fists. And at that point, there'll probably be a few hundred Playgrounders left - more than enough to pin him down, pry his helmet off with screwdrivers and crowbars, and put sharp pieces of metal into his neck.

Or would you prefer something less horrible than the brute-force solution? Oh, fine. Enough of us probably know how to make poisonous gases and clouds of flaming liquid that we could keep the SM in an inhospitable environment until he runs out of air. Alternately, since it's a wooded area, we could hide in trees and drop logs on him whenever he passes under. Granted, he could dodge a lot of them, and probably wouldn't fall into such a simple trap in the first place, but it's a wooded area. Everyone messes up eventually. While catapults wouldn't work very well in dense woods, we could have some of our engineering-inclined members set up in a clearing. Throw lots of heavy objects at the SM when he starts to charge them, and have people mob him and pry his armor off when he gets knocked down.

GoC
2008-05-22, 01:34 PM
As I said earlier, let's just try to lure him in a basement (a very deep one) which would be under a very big building.

Blow up the building in a way it crumble upon itself.

That's the only thing I can think of that could actually kill a space marine with our actual technology, short of tactical missiles.
That would be difficult given that you're in the middle of a forest/jungle and miles from civilization.


We've got 20,000 of us. Eventually the Space Marine will run out of bolter rounds.
He can take as much ammo as he can carry. Granted it's still not going to be enough and you could destroy his ammo stockpile but even so...

Oslecamo
2008-05-22, 01:46 PM
It's a moot point anyway; you would get close enough to neither a modern tank nor a Space Marine for one to be of any use.

Say hello to my 20.000 meat shields distractions fellow playgrounders.

Space marines are tough and all, but I still have to hear of one who has batled 20.000 human sized enemies at the same time and whitout backup and managed to kill them all.

Also, it's funny that you claim that your image out of nowhere is "more real" than my wikipedia article.

Jayngfet
2008-05-22, 01:51 PM
Judging by sheer numbers we could do it, and odds are a bunch of us have some form of traning(firearms, martial arts, odds are we have some military men among us,), we send in pixies first, zerg rushing him, all those bullets would to some damage and weapons jam or overheat eventually. Add to that we can bring any other weapons we can carry(a few thousand people carying weapons is a lot), grap onto some light vehicle(two playgrounders lifting), or another person(human chain) and no way he's winning.

It's all a matter of stealing from the weak playgrounders so you get more gold.

Oslecamo
2008-05-22, 01:57 PM
So, as a bugbear, what position do we get?

I volunteer myself to aim any heavy artilery we can get our hands on.

Actually, now that I think about it, it shouldn't be too hard for each of us to grab some kind of rocket launcher or RPG at the last second. Sure, most of us won't know how to use them, but hey, if we all shoot at the same time some of the explosives are bound to hit the SM.

Wraithy
2008-05-22, 02:10 PM
Bring lots of official-looking multicoloured forms, a desk, and several hundred line separators.
When everyone arrives we set up the desk and line separators, and all 20,000 of us queue up.
Send someone to meet the Space Marine, and tell him that before he starts killing he must fill out the correct forms for a visit to earth.
By the time he has gotten to the desk through the queue, he will be told he has filled out the wrong form and sent to fill out a new one.
Repeat this process until he finally gives up and shoots himself.

With the power of bureaucracy anything is possible :smallbiggrin:

Xuincherguixe
2008-05-22, 02:15 PM
I don't think we have much of a chance, because we'd have no idea of it's capabilities. Isn't a tank shell essentially nothing to them?

Nerve Gas might work, but we wouldn't know that the thing is nearly invincible.


One possibility is to try and bury it under an idiotic amount of weight, and hope it either can't breathe (ideally) or starve to death. And knowing how overpowered Space Marines are, that would probably take 20 years or so. Unless of course, they don't even need to eat.

If the helmet could get removed somehow, we could aim at his head.

We could try throwing him into a Volcano, but he'd probably live through that too.

GoC
2008-05-22, 02:20 PM
Judging by sheer numbers we could do it, and odds are a bunch of us have some form of traning(firearms, martial arts, odds are we have some military men among us,), we send in pixies first, zerg rushing him, all those bullets would to some damage and weapons jam or overheat eventually. Add to that we can bring any other weapons we can carry(a few thousand people carying weapons is a lot), grap onto some light vehicle(two playgrounders lifting), or another person(human chain) and no way he's winning.

But it's a SPACE MARINE!
He isn't just going to come out in the open so you can take pot shots with your rpgs...

Lizardfolk Lich
2008-05-22, 02:24 PM
What if we built a Dice Cannon? It has capital letters so it has to work!:smalltongue:

Innis Cabal
2008-05-22, 02:34 PM
Wiki is a self regulating site, even if its not 100% reliable, stop trying to hide your inablity to win the discussion by beating a dead horse.

And only by sheer numbers would we win, time is the greatest enemy the poor SM has. After his bullets and fuel are gone he's going to have to find other weapons, which i am sure he could do, and employ better and more effectivly then any single person on this site ever could. Its just a waiting game after getting him to an area he couldnt get a weapon

Oslecamo
2008-05-22, 02:53 PM
But it's a SPACE MARINE!
He isn't just going to come out in the open so you can take pot shots with your rpgs...

Oh yeah he's going to come out so we can shoot him with whatever we have:

Camouflage is the colour of fear... I have no need to hide from my foes... I have no fear of death. My colours I wear openly, they proclaim louder than any words, "I am proud to live - I am proud to die".

+++ Commander Carab Culln, Red Scorpions +++

Source:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Quotes_Space_Marines

Twin2
2008-05-22, 02:58 PM
How good is that power armor against a thousand or so cars attempting to ram it at full speed?

Innis Cabal
2008-05-22, 03:01 PM
Well if it was planned well, so there wasnt just a pile up of cars, that might stop him in his tracks long enough for something else to finish him off, but i dont think a car even going 80-90 mph is going to do much of anything to a SM

Oslecamo
2008-05-22, 03:02 PM
Due to the terrain car raming isn't a valid choice. Woods and mountains won't really allow us to drive anything landbound at full speed.

Altough I would argue that it would be enough. In the game vehicles can push infantry like they're candy, and if the infantry tries to stand in the way and shoot they go splat, no matter how many saves or indestructible it is(unless the shot destroys the vehicle before).

GoC
2008-05-22, 03:04 PM
Well if it was planned well, so there wasnt just a pile up of cars, that might stop him in his tracks long enough for something else to finish him off, but i dont think a car even going 80-90 mph is going to do much of anything to a SM

I don't think a lot of people have been in mountainous woods. Driving a car through it is impossible without a sturdy jeep (not an SUV) and 60mph (or even driving in a vaguely straight line) is completely out of the question.

Renegade Paladin
2008-05-22, 03:34 PM
Say hello to my 20.000 meat shields distractions fellow playgrounders.

Space marines are tough and all, but I still have to hear of one who has batled 20.000 human sized enemies at the same time and whitout backup and managed to kill them all.
The Space Marine is faster than any of us, with greater endurance to boot. We would never swarm him unless he chose to let us do it, and then he could break out at any time. And the reason you don't hear of Space Marines doing that in the WH40K fiction is that the Space Marines' enemies tend to have weapons that can at least in theory damage the Space Marines from a respectable distance away. We would not. Modern handguns would not even begin to threaten his power armor.

Also, it's funny that you claim that your image out of nowhere is "more real" than my wikipedia article.
I claim that the reports of the San Francisco Chronicle (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/11/03/PROTEST.TMP), a news organization with actual names, credentials, and accountability standards attached to its reporting, is far more reliable than a random webpage that any idiot with a browser can put any junk he wants upon. Wikipedia is not a reliable source. Citing it earns failing grades on academic assignments for a very good reason.

EvilDMMk3
2008-05-22, 03:34 PM
I have a question about the rules. I know for a fact that some people itp are IN the military in some fashion. How do the rules work for them?

Innis Cabal
2008-05-22, 03:46 PM
Wiki isnt a good source for collegic papers, last i checked nothing on this site comes close to that level. Wiki for your common every day information can be, and is very often the case with obscure/cult status topics, one of your best bets. Its all about what you want to know. They do manage to make more money in donations then im guessing 90% of us have in our bank accounts in a series of months.

Deadmeat.GW
2008-05-22, 03:52 PM
Molotov's might possibly do something but I doubt.

However a fair amount of us would be able to make the equivalent of crude explosive devices and primitive grenades, rpg launchers.

Any of our numbers that actually are in the military might get some decent weapons.

I will bring a a half a dozen cannisters of quick set foam and multiple cannisters of two-component glues together with a butaan cannister and a striker for making fire.
That would be about 10 kilo's and would produce a sticky, flaming and smoking substance that I could launch at about 30 yards with about 90% accuracy for hitting a moving object the size of a small sedan (about the size of a marine).

Given our numbers I would likely die after launching it but I would be able to get close enough to launch and the stuff will slowly slide into creases (weakest point on armour), stick to most things bar the very smoothest of things.
The heat on that is good enough to warp car chasis and if I hit from close enough the cannister would explode to boot :).

GoC
2008-05-22, 03:53 PM
I have a question about the rules. I know for a fact that some people itp are IN the military in some fashion. How do the rules work for them?
They're not allowed to directly tell their fellow soldiers about The Game but they can ask them to lend weapons or other such things or claim a secret mission or something.
Needless to say, it'd be a good idea to be testing the bazookas at 1200 GMT.

Wraithy
2008-05-22, 03:55 PM
You seem to be forgetting the most reliable source on the internet.
And now, the real facts about Molotov cocktails (http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Molotov_cocktail).

Oslecamo
2008-05-22, 04:21 PM
The Space Marine is faster than any of us, with greater endurance to boot. We would never swarm him unless he chose to let us do it, and then he could break out at any time. And the reason you don't hear of Space Marines doing that in the WH40K fiction is that the Space Marines' enemies tend to have weapons that can at least in theory damage the Space Marines from a respectable distance away. We would not. Modern handguns would not even begin to threaten his power armor.


The space marine is wearing a very shiny armor, is overburden with extra ammo and equipment, and was taught since he was a child to never retreat from an enemy, and their power armor can be destroyed by explosives, wich almost all of us can get one way or another. He's gonna get swarmed, and eventualy killed, altough probably taking a lot of us with him.

Remember, Space marines sit on one place and wait untill the attacking tyranids/orks reach them and chew them into bits, even tough they know the orks/tyranids are gonna shred them in melee combat, but suck at ranged combat.

As for the article you provided now, since there aren't any clear photos of tanks/buildings hit by Molotovs or any description of Molotov's properties on there, it still fails to contradict the wikipedia article.

Anyway, before you come with some other random answer, please notice that I already gave up on the molotovs, replacing them with visiting a military base before I'm teleported and geting my hands in some RPGs or rocket launchers in the last second. Those surely will hurt the SM.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-22, 04:22 PM
Hmm, can we bring other people if we can lift them? If so I go and grab my cousin and his gear and let him snipe Mr. Marine. I don't think even a Space Marine can take multiple .50 caliber rounds to the head (seeing as heavy bolter rounds are only twice as big).

Or maybe we should go and grab a couple Javelin's. I don't believe that a SM's armor could take hits from those.

Innis Cabal
2008-05-22, 04:31 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene-seed

Posion gas wont do much, shooting him even if it gets past the armor wont do much as their bones are thicker and stronger then our own, and they can regenerate to cut off blood lose. Most of our explosives are underpowered by their WH40K counterparts. His weapon alone is a .75 milimeter rocket propelled exploding round launching gun

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equipment_of_the_Imperium_%28Warhammer_40%2C000%29 #Power_Armour

And depending on the armor worn, i dont think a modern sniper bullet would do much of anything either, they have sniper rifles in WH40K, far larger and sophisticated then our own

Zeful
2008-05-22, 04:47 PM
I'm with you tippy, though I think a more appropriate weapon would be a coilgun. I couldn't build one in ten days and get it programed correctly but If I could, Mr. Space Marine would die. And I'd get to keep his armor relatively clean.

My way-

________
|.|==|...|
This is a rough graphic representation of a shell with 0 penetrative power. Water will stop the round dead, but will deliver enough force to a target to rupture any organ under the impact zone.The shell is a sturdy hollow tube with a very heavy metal slug inside. It moves freely in the casing making acceleration move the slug to the back (if it's not there already) and then the abrupt shock of impact will send the slug to the front of the casing causing a second impact of sorts, transferring tonnes of force directly to the liquid parts of his body, bursting blood vessels, rupturing organs, and in short immediately killing the target.

Mr. Space Marine may have redundant organs but one shot to the crown of his head will liquefy his brain, killing him instantly. A body shot will rupture many large organs leading to eventual death by internal bleeding.

chiasaur11
2008-05-22, 04:56 PM
Hey, we ignored a good possibility. We're in trouble. We don't know who else to turn to. Maybe we can hire...
The A Team.

Oslecamo
2008-05-22, 05:07 PM
Posion gas wont do much, shooting him even if it gets past the armor wont do much as their bones are thicker and stronger then our own, and they can regenerate to cut off blood lose. Most of our explosives are underpowered by their WH40K counterparts. His weapon alone is a .75 milimeter rocket propelled exploding round launching gun


Stop with the bones already. Space marines wear power armor for a reason, and that reason is because Power armor is harder than the marine's body. If something can go trough the armor, it will surely go trough the bones.

And they can't regenerate. Their blood coagulates really fast, but that's it. They don't have endless blood, and a direct artilery shell is enough to take a SM down.

http://uk.games-workshop.com/spacemarines/initiation/3/

The imperial guard has to fight the same abominations the SM fight, but they get crappy armor and their weapons shoot slug and simple lasers.

That's what we are here. We're a conscripts regiment of the IG, with little or no military training, crappy weapons and armor, forced into battle by the emperor knows what reason.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-22, 05:08 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene-seed

Posion gas wont do much, shooting him even if it gets past the armor wont do much as their bones are thicker and stronger then our own, and they can regenerate to cut off blood lose. Most of our explosives are underpowered by their WH40K counterparts. His weapon alone is a .75 milimeter rocket propelled exploding round launching gun
The only geneseed that might, possibly, matter is Ossmodula. None of the others do a thing to let the SM work without a brain and/or head. As for his bones and armor, an Mk 211 API fired from a M82A1A or an M107 won't really care. An API round is roughly equivalent to a bolter round.

And multiple hits to the head are even better.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equipment_of_the_Imperium_%28Warhammer_40%2C000%29 #Power_Armour

And depending on the armor worn, i dont think a modern sniper bullet would do much of anything either, they have sniper rifles in WH40K, far larger and sophisticated then our own

As above, an anti-material rifle loaded with API rounds would most likely penetrate. And unless you are of the opinion that SM armor is heavier than the front armor of an Abrams a Javelin will penetrate it.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-22, 05:14 PM
That's what we are here. We're a conscripts regiment of the IG, with little or no military training, crappy weapons and armor, forced into battle by the emperor knows what reason.
Which is why I'm grabbing my cousin, Force Recon sniper, and his gear, said .50 caliber. So long as I can get him a millimeter off the ground it's fair game according to the OP.

I know we have members of the playground deployed to Iraq at the moment and they can grab Javelin's for us (and prolly know how to use them as well). I'm sure at least 1 member has access to high explosives, and a few hundred kilos of that should do the trick. Especially if its used in a shaped charge.

Innis Cabal
2008-05-22, 05:15 PM
if you read the entry there Oslecamo, the blood dosnt just coagulates, it creates a skin subsitute that acts as an instant scar, thats levels above simple coagulation.
Second, They wear power armor because, exactly what you said, they armor is stronger, but it would be strange to go to all that trouble to give them that sort of addtion for no reason. Things de-accelerate, and as it states, the rib cage becomes -bullet proof-. Read the whole thing before discounting it.

At Tippy, i never said anything about head shots, and i doubt regular Power armor could stand up to surface to air missles

im not doubting he'd be taken down, the numbers and the want for his death will far far beat out his ability to survive but it would be tough, and alot, if not the majority of us would be shattered and dead

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-22, 05:20 PM
As above, an anti-material rifle loaded with API rounds would most likely penetrate. And unless you are of the opinion that SM armor is heavier than the front armor of an Abrams a Javelin will penetrate it.

Lasers that blow off limbs barely scorch the paint on Power Armor. An autocannon on a chopper blasted away at the back armor of an SM while he protected a civvie, and he it didnt get through. Space Marines have taken TANK shots before. How is a that going to cut it?

Edit: And were talking 40k tanks here.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-22, 05:28 PM
Lasers that blow off limbs barely scorch the paint on Power Armor. An autocannon on a chopper blasted away at the back armor of an SM while he protected a civvie, and he it didnt get through. Space Marines have taken TANK shots before. How is a that going to cut it?

Lasers are almost always worse than kinetic weapons. A laser blows off a limb by exciting the water molecules in the arm, with no water molecules it doesn't do as much. As for the Marines taking Tank shots, can a Bolter round hurt a marine? If so then a .50 API round should be able to. Much less a Javelin.

Innis Cabal
2008-05-22, 05:30 PM
Bolters shouldnt be compared to other guns for one. If you could get your hands on a bolter and somehow survive his shots then maybe you could take him down with no casualties

Seraph
2008-05-22, 05:38 PM
go on GITP, get every playgrounder to grab as much powdered aluminum and iron oxide as they can carry, as well as shovels.

dig a large pit trap and fill it with thermite. lure the marine into falling into it, and ignite the thermite said marine is now waist-deep in.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-22, 05:41 PM
Bolters shouldnt be compared to other guns for one. If you could get your hands on a bolter and somehow survive his shots then maybe you could take him down with no casualties

A Bolter fires (supposedly) a .75 caliber exploding round. A Mk 211 API (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raufoss_Mk_211) round is a .50 caliber armor piercing, high explosive, incendiary round. It has an impact energy of 15-20 thousand joules, all of which is transfered to the SM.

And we could be firing those from a heavy machine gun at a rate of 300+ rounds per minute.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-22, 05:42 PM
Meh, 'tis obvious we'll win, 'cause "Our name is Legion, for we are many and we have the guy who invented gaterape in our side".

Oslecamo
2008-05-22, 05:47 PM
if you read the entry there Oslecamo, the blood dosnt just coagulates, it creates a skin subsitute that acts as an instant scar, thats levels above simple coagulation.

Sure. But still isn't regeneration. If the marine gets half his body shreded, he's gonna die, skin substitute or not.




Second, They wear power armor because, exactly what you said, they armor is stronger, but it would be strange to go to all that trouble to give them that sort of addtion for no reason. Things de-accelerate, and as it states, the rib cage becomes -bullet proof-. Read the whole thing before discounting it.


Go read the description again. Notice how several of the implants are pretty much useless if we consider they are wearing power armor.

1-Ossmodula. Sure you get tougher, but you also get bigger, and thus easier to hit. And it doesn't even confirm if it's bullet proof or not. You also need to spend more money in transports, food and bigger armors.

2-Preomnor. Pretty. Since they all have that high tech equipment, one would expect they would have something as basic as packed rations, but aparently risky genetic manipulation is an easier solution to feed the SM.

3- Melanochrome. Since any radiation strong eough to hurt their flesh will probably fry the circuits of the power armor and weapons, rendering them useless, one can only ask why do they waste time making the SM resistant to radiation if none of it's equipment is gonna work should the situation happen.

4-Betcher's Gland. You're wearing an helmet. Who was the guy who had the funny idea to give them a spiting poison attack? And with all the strenght talk, one would expect SM to be able to breack steel bars with their hands, whitout need of corrosive acid or anything.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-22, 05:56 PM
A Bolter fires (supposedly) a .75 caliber exploding round. A Mk 211 API (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raufoss_Mk_211) round is a .50 caliber armor piercing, high explosive, incendiary round. It has an impact energy of 15-20 thousand joules, all of which is transfered to the SM.

And we could be firing those from a heavy machine gun at a rate of 300+ rounds per minute.

A bolter fires what is essentially an RPG in bullet form, thats why its so good. Bolters can hurt other SM, but it has to get through the armor first, and then actually kill them. Which is too say, it takes at least a few bursts, and this is with OTHER SM's bolters (firing an SM's bolt pistol will break a normal humans wrist pretty easily) and firing one of their BOLTERS would probably shatter ribs. All this, and they have the strength, reflexes, and tactical thinking skills above the average human (not to say normal humans couldn't be as smart or good as tactical stuff, but SM are naturally inclined toward this kind of thinking) Meaning, while you could POTENTIALLY get a weapon that could kill him, it wouldn't be as good as a bolter, and he's still a SPACE MARINE.

Innis Cabal
2008-05-22, 06:00 PM
This implant uses specially created hormones, combined with a diet high in ceramic-based chemicals, to considerably strengthen the skeleton of a Space Marine. Two years after the implantation, the Marine's skeleton will be exponentially stronger; and the rib cage will be fused into a solid mass of bulletproof interlaced bone plates.

Ya, its the rib cage, but as you said, bigger makes easier to hit, also one of their major glands is placed behind it, would it make sense to put one of two vitaly important glands somewhere so defenseless? Answer....no

Second, radiation does nothing to power armor, also, alot of the glands are taking into account that they might, you know, lose that armor?

Pack rations are all well and good, but what happens if you get lost? Or are on a planet with no hope of re-supplying, thats why they can eat dirt and keep on going.

All these "useless" additions really arnt so useless when you consider they are in a war, not a tea party.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-22, 06:02 PM
1-Ossmodula. Sure you get tougher, but you also get bigger, and thus easier to hit. And it doesn't even confirm if it's bullet proof or not. You also need to spend more money in transports, food and bigger armors.

the whole "easier to hit" thing doesn't matter when he moves so fast he can move across a big room so quickly he can smash the gun out of someones hand before they can shoot him. And really, bigger is better, because it gives more room for the huge muscles it takes to fire a gun which would shatter a regular persons ribs like it was a bb gun.


2-Preomnor. Pretty. Since they all have that high tech equipment, one would expect they would have something as basic as packed rations, but aparently risky genetic manipulation is an easier solution to feed the SM.

:smallannoyed: Its efficient, and SM are put in a lot of crazy situations. The ability to survive without food or water is VERY useful.


3- Melanochrome. Since any radiation strong eough to hurt their flesh will probably fry the circuits of the power armor and weapons, rendering them useless, one can only ask why do they waste time making the SM resistant to radiation if none of it's equipment is gonna work should the situation happen.

Maybe OUR equipment, but this is POWER ARMOR we're talking about. It might be enough to short out their bolter and chainswords and stuff, but if it gets bad they're still massive warriors who can pick up trucks, and have a Combat Knife the size of a short sword (probably a bit bigger)


4-Betcher's Gland. You're wearing an helmet. Who was the guy who had the funny idea to give them a spiting poison attack? And with all the strenght talk, one would expect SM to be able to breack steel bars with their hands, whitout need of corrosive acid or anything.

This is really more of a mutation in the gene-seed than anything, like the Blood Angels Red Thirst and Black Rage, and a couple different SM chapters acid blood.

Innis Cabal
2008-05-22, 06:15 PM
Thank you Asmodeus for putting it in far more eloquent words then i could, with all the negative things said here about the SM's i forgot the sheer ability of them for a bit.

Inhuman Bot
2008-05-22, 06:16 PM
We also could:
A) invest heavily (hah hah?) in depleted uranium.
B) Could other people see him? if so, end of space marine.
C) We could all run a differnt way. some people go towards a body of large water. He would drown eventually.
D) also no SM would be able to survive a horde of us. A imp guard army can take down a sm army right?

Innis Cabal
2008-05-22, 06:21 PM
A) invest heavily (hah hah?) in depleted uranium.-And do what with it? Watch it apperciate in value?
B) Could other people see him? if so, end of space marine.-no idea, if so then its not the playground v. SM is it?
C) We could all run a differnt way. some people go towards a body of large water. He would drown eventually.-No he wont, he can survive in vacuums for short periods of time, water wont be a problem.
D) also no SM would be able to survive a horde of us. A imp guard army can take down a sm army right? -If they are lucky, but probably....no. And even then, we arnt in anyway the Imp

Zeful
2008-05-22, 06:22 PM
*Points to my previous post.*



I'm just saying.

Echowinds
2008-05-22, 06:29 PM
An Imperial Guard army could take down a small SM army because the IG has tanks, cannons, and laser rifles. We don't.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-22, 06:39 PM
A bolter fires what is essentially an RPG in bullet form, thats why its so good. Bolters can hurt other SM, but it has to get through the armor first, and then actually kill them. Which is too say, it takes at least a few bursts, and this is with OTHER SM's bolters (firing an SM's bolt pistol will break a normal humans wrist pretty easily) and firing one of their BOLTERS would probably shatter ribs. All this, and they have the strength, reflexes, and tactical thinking skills above the average human (not to say normal humans couldn't be as smart or good as tactical stuff, but SM are naturally inclined toward this kind of thinking) Meaning, while you could POTENTIALLY get a weapon that could kill him, it wouldn't be as good as a bolter, and he's still a SPACE MARINE.

Ok, so a bolter fires an RPG. Fine. Javelin's are far more powerful than RPG's and I could bring 10-20 rounds plus a guy who can use them. Other playgrounders are deployed in Iraq and have access and training as well.

SM dies when struck with 20 Javelins.

And I still think a .50 caliber API round is comparable to a bolter round. Heavy Bolter rounds being much bigger than regular bolter rounds and only being 1.0 caliber. With a heavy machine gun we could be hitting the marine with well over 250 of these rounds per miniute from a range of at least a kilometer. SM's are good but they are still only about as strong as RL tanks. And RL tanks can be taken out with man potable weapons.

Innis Cabal
2008-05-22, 06:49 PM
Only the SM can move faster and over terrien better then any of our tanks, and the power armor, being able to take several bolter rounds, the machine gun rounds wont be much of an issue, will find the shooter and ghost him. Lancers have always been a problem, but he is smarter then we are, and breed to fight....we arnt even close to his cailbur

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-22, 06:56 PM
Only the SM can move faster and over terrien better then any of our tanks, and the power armor, being able to take several bolter rounds, the machine gun rounds wont be much of an issue, will find the shooter and ghost him. Lancers have always been a problem, but he is smarter then we are, and breed to fight....we arnt even close to his cailbur

Fire and Forget rockets that don't even need LOS when launched. If this was the playground vs. a Cadre member I would take the cadre, but thats because they have stealth systems good enough that none of us would ever see them, and sensor systems good enough to find all of us.

If you can find it, you can hit it. If you can hit it, you can kill it. That holds true against space marines unless they can take Javelins to the face. They can be targeted with current gen anti tank weapons. So they can be hit by those same weapons. And if they can hit it then enough of them will kill it.

Deathcow
2008-05-22, 06:56 PM
Easily done. Break off into groups of 108 and have each group attack him separately. If we assume that 1 in 6 attacks rolls a 6 to hit, 1 in 6 hits rolls a 6 to wound, and 1 in 3 wounds gets through his 3+ armor save, 108 attacks are all it'll take.:smallbiggrin:

FoE
2008-05-22, 07:01 PM
I would win easily. For you see, those miniatures are very small and also do not move. Drop one into an incinerator and VOILA! victory is yours.

Jayngfet
2008-05-22, 07:02 PM
We have one advantage the SM doesn't, the playground itself, even if we have know idea what this guys capable of we can organize who brings what, we can organise ourselves and recruit others with us(like rick rolling, but with oots instead of a music viedo), even useless pixies get a free gun, plus twenty thousand minds coming together regularly for mathematics would be better at tactics.

In hypothetical marching order, who goes where?

I say:

Groups of ten pixies and dwarves to an orc, ten orcs to a barbarian, ten barbarians to a bugbear and so on.

My humble strategy is to retreat while shooting standard guns at him, when he picks a direction, hit him with something bigger and flashier, anyone with aircraft piles in as many people as they can(with parachutes or bombs if possible), if he looks alone or with less than 10 people, hit him with a bomb or weapon and send a few heavily armed people after him, fly off before he can hit you, lather rinse repeat. Ground playgrounders keep scattering, keeping flareguns on them to fire off if they see him, travel in groups of ten to twenty. anyone who sees a flare heads in that general direction if within a certain range, everyone else run.

If we have enough weapons to go around fine, if not the theorists get standard pistols unless they can pilot or drive. The giant gets his pick of weapons and armor plus fifty guards.

Zeful
2008-05-22, 07:10 PM
Only the SM can move faster and over terrien better then any of our tanks, and the power armor, being able to take several bolter rounds, the machine gun rounds wont be much of an issue, will find the shooter and ghost him. Lancers have always been a problem, but he is smarter then we are, and breed to fight....we arnt even close to his cailbur

The power armor is his greatest weakness in this situation. It's rigid, it can't absorb and cancel force so you don't penetrate his armor, you use it to kill him.



________
|.|==|...|
This is a rough graphic representation of a shell with 0 penetrative power. Water will stop the round dead, but will deliver enough force to a target to rupture any organ under the impact zone.The shell is a sturdy hollow tube with a very heavy metal slug inside. It moves freely in the casing making acceleration move the slug to the back (if it's not there already) and then the abrupt shock of impact will send the slug to the front of the casing causing a second impact of sorts, transferring tonnes of force directly to the liquid parts of his body, bursting blood vessels, rupturing organs, and in short immediately killing the target.

Mr. Space Marine may have redundant organs but one shot to the crown of his head will liquefy his brain, killing him instantly. A body shot will rupture many large organs leading to eventual death by internal bleeding.

So one person can kill a marine with earth level tech.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-22, 07:12 PM
Fire and Forget rockets that don't even need LOS when launched. If this was the playground vs. a Cadre member I would take the cadre, but thats because they have stealth systems good enough that none of us would ever see them, and sensor systems good enough to find all of us.

If you can find it, you can hit it. If you can hit it, you can kill it. That holds true against space marines unless they can take Javelins to the face. They can be targeted with current gen anti tank weapons. So they can be hit by those same weapons. And if they can hit it then enough of them will kill it.

You forget that, having trained as scouts before becoming SM, they are very proficient at stealth. Even in that big clunky armor, if he needs to, he can become a ghost and kill you before you know hes there. SM are consummate killers, he'll find out how heavily outnumbered he is, and take cautions to avoid being swamped. I mean let me put it like this, this is just one example, there are more, but in Brothers of the Snake, when a world gave out a distress signal because it came under attack by DE, they sent one, count them, ONE SM. Now, there weren't nearly as many DE as there are of us, but DE are themselves highly skilled warriors all, and faster and with better tech than the IoM let alone us. He killed them all. Space Marines are truly Angels of Death, because they a force to be reckoned with. Every race in the 40k universe capable of conceiving such things fears the Space Marines, because they are death incarnate, they are Angels of fiery retribution. Poetic justice aside, they are pure badass, and they are soldiers born, and superhuman in every way possible.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-22, 07:13 PM
So one person can kill a marine with earth level tech.

And where does this information come from?

Innis Cabal
2008-05-22, 07:16 PM
Power Armor recives guass rifle fire and holds up, mass drive technology, which isnt even practical in most situations, is not close to that powerful. Sorry Zeful but your hypothetical weapon wont do what you think it will to them

GoC
2008-05-22, 07:21 PM
Prepare for a massive multi-quote that argues for both sides!


go on GITP, get every playgrounder to grab as much powdered aluminum and iron oxide as they can carry, as well as shovels.

dig a large pit trap and fill it with thermite. lure the marine into falling into it, and ignite the thermite said marine is now waist-deep in.
Your cunning plan has a single flaw.


Edit: And were talking 40k tanks here.
iow they're several thousand years old and are maintained by ancient rituals?:smallbiggrin:


Only the SM can move faster and over terrien better then any of our tanks
Marines can't run at 60mph.


but he is smarter then we are
Speak for yourself, there are quite a few very very intelligent people here and SMs have no intelligence augmentation.


the whole "easier to hit" thing doesn't matter when he moves so fast he can move across a big room so quickly he can smash the gun out of someones hand before they can shoot him. And really, bigger is better, because it gives more room for the huge muscles it takes to fire a gun which would shatter a regular persons ribs like it was a bb gun.
That's why it's called powered armor.

Lord_Asmodeus' most recent post: Quite poetic.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-22, 07:22 PM
You forget that, having trained as scouts before becoming SM, they are very proficient at stealth. Even in that big clunky armor, if he needs to, he can become a ghost and kill you before he knows your there. SM are consummate killers, he'll find out how heavily outnumbered he is, and take cautions to avoid being swamped. I mean let me put it like this, this is just one example, there are more, but in Brothers of the Snake, when a world gave out a distress signal because it came under attack by DE, they sent one, count them, ONE SM. Now, there weren't nearly as many DE as there are of us, but DE are themselves highly skilled warriors all, and faster and with better tech than the IoM let alone us. He killed them all. Space Marines are truly Angels of Death, because they a force to be reckoned with. Every race in the 40k universe capable of conceiving such things fears the Space Marines, because they are death incarnate, they are Angels of fiery retribution. Poetic justice aside, they are pure badass, and they are soldiers born, and superhuman in every way possible.

Does his armor have both visible light and IR stealth systems? Does he still give off heat? If so then he can be seen and targeted. Hell, I would just go and get my cousin and all his buddies to sign up to the playground, and get them to get their buddies. So when it comes down to the fight we have most of Force Recon, most of Delta, most SEALS, and most of SAS coming for the fight. Plus anyone else we can scrounge up. In the end you could well end up with the better part of an infantry division made up of special forces joining in for the fun.

My next door neighbor is an Air Force general and my dads best friend is a deputy director at Homeland Security, so get both of them signed up as well. Once the fight starts the AF general pulls out his cell phone and orders up a couple bombers and the HS guy calls in full satellite support, letting us track the SM in real time.

Cheap, yep. It's also doable.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-22, 07:28 PM
iow they're several thousand years old and are maintained by ancient rituals?:smallbiggrin:

No, meaning they're massive multi-barreled monstrosities that make our tanks look like VANS. And alot of 40k tanks AREN'T several thousand years old. In fact, alot of their weapons tech is newly fabricated, only certain things are thousands of years old, alot is brand new.



Marines can't run at 60mph.

Actually, 60mph has been purported to be their AVERAGE running speed (from Wolf's Honor)


That's why it's called powered armor.

Actually its just called Power Armor

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-22, 07:31 PM
Does his armor have both visible light and IR stealth systems? Does he still give off heat?

His armor does in fact, NOT give off heat (since its airtight plasteel that constantly cools the wearer unless that system is damaged) And no his armor does not have stealth systems built into his armor, but he doesn't NEED them.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-22, 07:37 PM
His armor does in fact, NOT give off heat (since its airtight plasteel that constantly cools the wearer unless that system is damaged) And no his armor does not have stealth systems built into his armor, but he doesn't NEED them.

Hmm, so the space marine melts. Sweet. His body produces heat, which his armor has to radiate away or store in some way. So how is it stored?

Actually he does need said stealth systems. Again, if you can see it you can target it. If you can target it you can kill it.

GoC
2008-05-22, 07:38 PM
Hell, I would just go and get my cousin and all his buddies to sign up to the playground, and get them to get their buddies.
Only people registered on the Playground at the time the packages are opened count.
And remember you can't involve the military.


Actually, 60mph has been purported to be their AVERAGE running speed (from Wolf's Honor)
Is that even physically possible?:smalleek:

(since its airtight plasteel that constantly cools the wearer unless that system is damaged)
You know that cooling works by transferring heat from the inside to the outside?


And no his armor does not have stealth systems built into his armor, but he doesn't NEED them.
So he is invisible by other means?:smallconfused:

EDIT: I looked it up. The SMs have no organ that enhances speed so they can't run at 60mph.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-22, 07:43 PM
Only people registered on the Playground at the time the packages are opened count.
The OP doesn't say that. But it doesn't really matter.


And remember you can't involve the military.
No, it says you can't involve your local military or police. The SAS aren't either. Neither is Blackwater. Or Homeland Security.

Or even the special forces soldiers we could carry. It would just be involving individuals who happen to be members of military organizations without actually involving said organization.


Is that even physically possible?:smalleek:
Maybe, if their bones and muscles are strong enough.


You know that cooling works by transferring heat from the inside to the outside?


So he is invisible by other means?:smallconfused:

Yeah, I want answers to both of those as well.

Renegade Paladin
2008-05-22, 07:47 PM
Fire and Forget rockets that don't even need LOS when launched. If this was the playground vs. a Cadre member I would take the cadre, but thats because they have stealth systems good enough that none of us would ever see them, and sensor systems good enough to find all of us.

If you can find it, you can hit it. If you can hit it, you can kill it. That holds true against space marines unless they can take Javelins to the face. They can be targeted with current gen anti tank weapons. So they can be hit by those same weapons. And if they can hit it then enough of them will kill it.
How are you going to lay hands on Javelins? Even in the Army they don't pass the things out like candy.

Also, where did you get this bizarre idea that they don't need line of sight to work? They're fire and forget, but you still need to see what you're shooting at.

Furthermore, Javelin isn't intended to lock onto anything smaller than a truck. I don't know if the thermal sights would even recognize the Marine as a valid target.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-22, 07:54 PM
Is that even physically possible?:smalleek:

You know that cooling works by transferring heat from the inside to the outside?


So he is invisible by other means?:smallconfused:

1. It is for a space marine

2. I can't remember the exact quote, but I recall from one of the books when they tried to find an SM using infrared, it didn't work because his armor is self-cooling or something.

3. No... just really stealthy if he needs to be. As for the whole satellite thing, its not infallible, as long as you've got a place to hide it can miss you.

also, where does this take place again?

Innis Cabal
2008-05-22, 07:59 PM
Your also not taking into account how far a SM can see, chances are, if the battle field is advantagous to the SM, and its going to be, bet your last dollar on that, its going to be, he's going to see you aiming, he's going to stop you from firing, and thats the end of that.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-22, 08:00 PM
How are you going to lay hands on Javelins? Even in the Army they don't pass the things out like candy.
My cousin has access to them and I can be holding one at noon 10 days from today if I have to be.


Also, where did you get this bizarre idea that they don't need line of sight to work? They're fire and forget, but you still need to see what you're shooting at.
The Javelin needs to be able to detect what its being shot at. If you can detect the guy on the other side of a tree or low wall you can target them.


Furthermore, Javelin isn't intended to lock onto anything smaller than a truck. I don't know if the thermal sights would even recognize the Marine as a valid target.
Depends on how hot the SM is. They are certainly large enough to be targeted.

GoC
2008-05-22, 08:01 PM
1. It is for a space marine
No, I checked what organs they get. None would allow them any additional speed.


3. No... just really stealthy if he needs to be.
It seems stealth would be difficult when you're ten feet tall and wearing almost a ton of armor .


also, where does this take place again?
Uninhabited, mountainous and wooded terrain. Maybe on another planet. Maybe not.

Eita
2008-05-22, 08:03 PM
Space Marine wins. Easily. Especially since we don't know anything about him. So, basically, all of your ideas go out the window. Honestly, I have no idea why "The Game" threads tell you who you are facing. Just tell them they've been selected so not even they know what they have to get ready for.

A Space Marine has armor more powerful then modern tanks, contrary to popular belief, they do have brains (most of the time: 2 First Founding Chapters don't. Guess which. Although, I assume that we're fighting an Ultramarine), stealth training from their days as a Marine Scout, and the ability to kill a man by spitting on him.

EDIT: GoC, remember those things about enhanced muscles? Yeah, those are in the legs too. Also, their Powered Armor does make them go faster. Unless he's wearing Termie armor, in which case we're already screwed.

GoC
2008-05-22, 08:04 PM
and the ability to kill a man by spitting on him.

I think they'll eventually run out of spit!:smallbiggrin:

Innis Cabal
2008-05-22, 08:08 PM
Modern military cant beat the golden age of mankind

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-22, 08:11 PM
No, I checked what organs they get. None would allow them any additional speed.

So? They're a LOT stronger than normal people, and they have armor that ENHANCES that strength, as well as really tough bones. They don't NEED some "speed" organ, they're just built in a way that allows them to be much faster.



It seems stealth would be difficult when you're ten feet tall and wearing almost a ton of armor .

It would seem that way, but its not, at least for a space marine


Uninhabited, mountainous and wooded terrain. Maybe on another planet. Maybe not.

See? These are good conditions for stealth and hiding. And yes, you might think "oh a ten foot tall armored superhuman should be easy to spot" but then, you, and many a hapless heretic (or indeed, guardsman, if its the other way around with CSM) would have thought so, only to be grabbed from behind and beheaded with a short-sword sized combat knife.

Verruckt
2008-05-22, 08:16 PM
A single javelin can kill a space marine, because a single javelin can kill an Abrams, if it hits, he is dead. Several of us playgrounders with 20,000 dollar anti tank rockets on hand (which aren't that hard to operate by the way, never mind that some of us already have the know how.) would paste him. As for getting a lock on a 7 foot power armor with a heat bleeding reactor on his back, oh, i just answered my own supposition. Getting our hands on them is simply a matter of active service members holding a sight and some tubes come teleport day.

Renegade Paladin
2008-05-22, 08:17 PM
We'd better hope it's an Ultramarine. If it's one of the Raven Guard, for instance, we're twice as screwed, because stealth would be his M.O. even before he realized how outnumbered he is. :smalltongue:

Innis Cabal
2008-05-22, 08:20 PM
Verrukt, read previous posts, SM's do not bleed out heat, all heat produced is self contained and somehow dispersed.

Also, as soon as he sees he is on a human world, he will make sure we are not tainted with Chaos, will make sure we know that we are owned by The Emperor, if we resist, we are heritics, and he will call in a strike to destroy our plant.

GoC
2008-05-22, 08:26 PM
So? They're a LOT stronger than normal people, and they have armor that ENHANCES that strength, as well as really tough bones. They don't NEED some "speed" organ, they're just built in a way that allows them to be much faster.
They're stronger due to greater muscle mass and bodybuilders can't run at 60mph. Their legs simply won't move fast enough.


See? These are good conditions for stealth and hiding. And yes, you might think "oh a ten foot tall armored superhuman should be easy to spot" but then, you, and many a hapless heretic (or indeed, guardsman, if its the other way around with CSM) would have thought so, only to be grabbed from behind and beheaded with a short-sword sized combat knife.
And how exactly could this take place?
A. There are 20,000 people so they can afford to move in groups (meaning no sneaking up from behind).
B. They don't have heavy armor making noise.
C. They have a smaller profile.
D. They can camouflage themselves far better than the SM can or will.
E. The SM needs to avoid and see every single playgrounder, they only need one person to see him.

Seriously stealth isn't in the marine's cards.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-22, 08:26 PM
Verrukt, read previous posts, SM's do not bleed out heat, all heat produced is self contained and somehow dispersed.
Then he melts to death. He has to deal with waste heat in some way.

DanielX
2008-05-22, 08:26 PM
Would Viet Cong or Ewok style methods be effective?

Basically, I have no knowledge of or ability with most types of weaponry - I doubt I'd even be able to hit the Space Marine with the Glock. Instead I will bring a utility knife, hatchet, shovel, a boy scout manual, and a copy of whatever instructions I can find online.

I, and several other Playgrounders, will get away from the initial melee and attempt to lay traps, like a thousand Kobolds trying to flummox an epic fighter. Now, how effective this will be, I don't know... especially given that that I have no more experience with this than I do with weapons (i.e. none).

Innis Cabal
2008-05-22, 08:33 PM
But see, none of them have melted to death due to heat bleed off. I dont own the books so i cant cite the source Asmodeus broguht up, but its already been stated that they cant be tracked by infared

Jack Squat
2008-05-22, 08:40 PM
The OP made me think of Mortal Kombat...which in turn made me think of the battle scene between Johnny Cage and Prince Goro :smalltongue:


I didn't feel like reading this thread, didn't even really feel like responding until I saw something about not being able to be tracked by infrared.

The solution? smoke, sand, dust, something in the air, preferably somehow charged...unless the Sapce Marine is incorporeal, he'll become quite visible with particles clinging to him.

Then I'm siding with the person who mentioned maltovs

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-22, 08:47 PM
They're stronger due to greater muscle mass and bodybuilders can't run at 60mph. Their legs simply won't move fast enough.

Body builders AREN'T SPACE MARINES. How are you not getting this? Of course body builders can't, because they're NORMAL HUMANS. Space Marines are everything normal humans are and more. Its like saying "A housecat can't run as fast as a cheetah, even when they get strong" well DUH, you can't COMPARE a house cat to a cheetah. And thats not even mentioning the ARMOR which adds to their strength.


And how exactly could this take place?
A. There are 20,000 people so they can afford to move in groups (meaning no sneaking up from behind).
B. They don't have heavy armor making noise.
C. They have a smaller profile.
D. They can camouflage themselves far better than the SM can or will.
E. The SM needs to avoid and see every single playgrounder, they only need one person to see him.

Seriously stealth isn't in the marine's cards.

A. Lots of people doesn't instantly mean someone will see him, especially in the darkness.
B. Just because an SM is wearing heavy armor doesn't mean he's noisy, and SM have Infrared in their helmets (AKA Preysight)
C. Again, preysight, as well as enhanced vision ("My eyes are the eyes of the Emperor" or I SEE YOU! eyes)
D. Again again, preysight and drastically enhanced vision
E. You know, its really not that hard to hide from a bunch of people if they don't know where to look, especially when you're well trained in the art of stealth.


The OP made me think of Mortal Kombat...which in turn made me think of the battle scene between Johnny Cage and Prince Goro :smalltongue:


I didn't feel like reading this thread, didn't even really feel like responding until I saw something about not being able to be tracked by infrared.

The solution? smoke, sand, dust, something in the air, preferably somehow charged...unless the Sapce Marine is incorporeal, he'll become quite visible with particles clinging to him.

Then I'm siding with the person who mentioned maltovs

At which point he'll open up with his bolter, shredding dozens within seconds, and causing mass panic as were cut down before his superior fire power, because he can see through it, or at least see our body heat. And how is a Molotov Cocktail going to help when Space Marines can walk through burning buildings and deserts without noticing the heat, and can take tank shots and get back up. In fact, one time a Chaos sorcerer tried to strike a squad of SM down with lightning, one got hit. He was knocked off his feet, after which he promptly got back up, they all had a laugh, and they proceeded to kill him. I doubt a flaming bottle of beer is going to hinder him at all.

chiasaur11
2008-05-22, 08:49 PM
Modern military cant beat the golden age of mankind

Good thing for us the golden age is long gone.
This ain't a primarch or
CIAPHAS CAIN, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM
a legendary hero with gear or skills at the peak of mankind's work. This is mankind after thousands of years of slowly sliding back towards oblivian. He CAN be killed by modern tech. The only question is if enough guys have skill with enough modern death technology to kill him.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-22, 08:52 PM
Good thing for us the golden age is long gone.
This ain't a primarch or
CIAPHAS CAIN, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM
a legendary hero with gear or skills at the peak of mankind's work. This is mankind after thousands of years of slowly sliding back towards oblivian. He CAN be killed by modern tech. The only question is if enough guys have skill with enough modern death technology to kill him.

Thats like saying a tiger CAN be killed with screwdrivers. Sure it can, but I'll bet you that even if a bunch of people try they'll end up bloody stains and meat in a tigers stomach. Sure an SM CAN be killed with modern tech, but it will be very hard, and even with 20'000 people we might all DIE.

Innis Cabal
2008-05-22, 08:54 PM
Even their "decline" is better then anything we have right now

GoC
2008-05-22, 08:57 PM
Body builders AREN'T SPACE MARINES. How are you not getting this? Of course body builders can't, because they're NORMAL HUMANS. Space Marines are everything normal humans are and more. Its like saying "A housecat can't run as fast as a cheetah, even when they get strong" well DUH, you can't COMPARE a house cat to a cheetah. And thats not even mentioning the ARMOR which adds to their strength.
I'll spell it out for you: Greater muscle mass doesn't make you faster!
Space Marines are normal humans+clearly defined enhancements. Their legs cannot move fast enough to run 60 mph.


A. Lots of people doesn't instantly mean someone will see him, especially in the darkness.
B. Just because an SM is wearing heavy armor doesn't mean he's noisy, and SM have Infrared in their helmets (AKA Preysight)
C. Again, preysight, as well as enhanced vision ("My eyes are the eyes of the Emperor" or I SEE YOU! eyes)
D. Again again, preysight and drastically enhanced vision
E. You know, its really not that hard to hide from a bunch of people if they don't know where to look, especially when you're well trained in the art of stealth.
A. Hmm... I'd better edit the original post to include time of day. I implied the battle was at noon but it needs clear stating.
B. It means he'll be cracking twigs left, right and center with every step. With his extra weight and unpadded soles to noise level is going to be high.

Just realized I probably shouldn't get involved in debating in my own vs. thread... I'll phase out my responses.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-22, 08:58 PM
Thats like saying a tiger CAN be killed with screwdrivers. Sure it can, but I'll bet you that even if a bunch of people try they'll end up bloody stains and meat in a tigers stomach. Sure an SM CAN be killed with modern tech, but it will be very hard, and even with 20'000 people we might all DIE.

Um no. Enough playgrounders have access to enough weapons that we won't.

It's mountainous terrain. So we find a cave and trap the entrance. When he comes to enter all of the nice high explosives go off and he goes bye bye.

Verruckt
2008-05-22, 09:01 PM
They have to bleed off heat because they have a reactor on their back that has several inch wide vents below it, look at the models. And you can kill him with a javelin even without a heat signature because the JAVELIN system can maintain a lock on shape recognition alone, that's why they cost 20,000 a piece.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-22, 09:04 PM
Um no. Enough playgrounders have access to enough weapons that we won't.

It's mountainous terrain. So we find a cave and trap the entrance. When he comes to enter all of the nice high explosives go off and he goes bye bye.

You assume he won't be expecting something like this, or will be dumb enough to fall for this.


I'll spell it out for you: Greater muscle mass doesn't make you faster!
Space Marines are normal humans+clearly defined enhancements. Their legs cannot move fast enough to run 60 mph.

I'll spell it out for YOU. THEY MADE IT WORK. Maybe its because of their armor, maybe its just the way their musculature and bone structure work, but for some reason 60mph is their AVERAGE RUNNING SPEED. It was in a book, and this kind of speed has been backed up in several other books, so it doesn't matter if it makes sense to you, thats how it works.


A. Hmm... I'd better edit the original post to include time of day. I implied the battle was at noon but it needs clear stating.
B. It means he'll be cracking twigs left, right and center with every step. With his extra weight and unpadded soles to noise level is going to be high.

Just realized I probably shouldn't get involved in debating in my own vs. thread... I'll phase out my responses.

Have you ever tried to walk really quietly? I have, and it rarely works, and yet some people can move like freaking GHOSTS on floors where I sound (to me at least) like a herd of elephants sneaking around. The lesson here? If you know how, you can be sneaky even with certain disadvantages. No doubt being stealthy even in heavy armor was something they trained as Scouts, because this is something they'd be able to tell as well.

Innis Cabal
2008-05-22, 09:05 PM
If they are skilled stealth combatants.....why would they make noise in twigs etc, answer, they wouldnt. They know what they are doing. Also where are you getting their soles arnt padded? We have no idea if they are or not. We've presented alot of information on just what they can do, and cited most of it. The simple answer is, yes they can run faster then humans, and in the fluff 60 mph is the average, how? They are space marines, its what they do, its as simple as that. They are the best of the best, -super-human in -every- capacity, yes that to. He -is- smarter then us in this situation because this is his whole life, he fights demons and corrupt humans, aliens that have no mercy, pity, fear or remorse for what they kill or eat. They have seen their comrades stripped down to a molecular level and pressed on as if nothing happend all for the God Emperor. Every day for them is an unimaginable nightmare for you or I, they are fighting a war on at least 7 fronts, and are holding ground against all that seek to obliterate their species.

What makes you think a back water heritic planet will cause even -one- of these a problem. In the end, if we can get ahold of all these nice special weapons from outside the planet, he can call in what he needs to. We arnt worth keeping around as a planet goes, and chances are we wont just bow down to the Emperor. We'd be eliminated, forgotten in a clerical error, and thats the end of Earth616

Jade Falcon
2008-05-22, 09:06 PM
I´m not very familiar with the sturdiness of the power armor, but I don´t suppose that he would survive the blast of a small nuclear warhead at point blank range?

Innis Cabal
2008-05-22, 09:07 PM
Neither would we :P
next question, where are we going to get the nuke?

Foeofthelance
2008-05-22, 09:07 PM
Well, I think the question is how many playgrounders are in a position to acquire something more difficult then a glock? Ok, fine, apparently being in the vehicle doesn't count, but I can easily see the following scene playing out across Army, Marine, and National Guard bases across the world...

T -5 minutes to game
Quarter Master: "Hey, LT, where are you going with that LAW?"
LT: "Oh, we're doing a qualifier course down at the range. I got stuck with the safety handling lecture..."

(Feel free to mix and match ranks as you see fit.)

After all, the rules only say that we can't tell anyone in the armed forces about what's going to happen. That's not necessarily the same thing as the armed forces not knowing about what's going to happen. I'd expect the SWAT guys, cops, firefighters, what have you, would all show up armed with something a little more impressive than a glock. Hell, how many Playgrounders could get their hands on more powerful artillery before they got warped into this? Its not like we have five minutes to prepare; we got time. And it doesn't say anything about us not actually being able to use the forums to coordinate our response...

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-22, 09:08 PM
I´m not very familiar with the sturdiness of the power armor, but I don´t suppose that he would survive the blast of a small nuclear warhead at point blank range?

Don't know. Don't think anyone lived long enough to do anything point blank. You get point blank with an SM, and you'll be a shattered corpse before you can BLINK.

Echowinds
2008-05-22, 09:09 PM
Does the Space Marine have a name? If he does, we are screwed because he would be protected by plot armor.

Jade Falcon
2008-05-22, 09:12 PM
Neither would we :P
next question, where are we going to get the nuke?

I have no idea :smallbiggrin:

But if I´m anyhow going to hell, I use every chance to take my enemy with me :D

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-22, 09:12 PM
Until we shoot him with a few Javelins and thats that.

Really, you could put all million Space Marines on earth tomorrow and current earth would defeat them. It would be hard to do but it is doable (and we wouldn't even have to resort to nuclear weapons).

Verruckt
2008-05-22, 09:15 PM
Blah blah blah, stealth, no, just no, unless he's got stummers on his feet, those massive boots are making noise, his servos are whining (as they are consistently described as doing in the novels) we'd hear him coming.

MeklorIlavator
2008-05-22, 09:15 PM
I think that also depends on them not getting their support units(including aircraft and of course, the battlebarges), but assuming its just eh marines and their power armor, i think we would have a shot. Vehicles would also complicate things.

Verruckt
2008-05-22, 09:19 PM
right, earth could take a million marines because although marines are powerful, one of their biggest advantages is all of their support mechanisms.

Innis Cabal
2008-05-22, 09:27 PM
If 1 million marines dropped on the planet tommorow, they came from somewhere. The current military structure world wide would be paralyzed with terror and panic that an invading space army is on our planet. I wouldnt even give them 3 days to kick our ass and comden us to Exterminus.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-22, 09:36 PM
I think that also depends on them not getting their support units(including aircraft and of course, the battlebarges), but assuming its just eh marines and their power armor, i think we would have a shot. Vehicles would also complicate things.

Of course. This just assumes that a million space marines randomly appear on earth (either in random locations or all in 1 random location).


If 1 million marines dropped on the planet tommorow, they came from somewhere. The current military structure world wide would be paralyzed with terror and panic that an invading space army is on our planet. I wouldnt even give them 3 days to kick our ass and comden us to Exterminus.
Nah, the terror would last until the first SM starts offing people. Then the military responds with "Everyone stay in your homes while we deal with the unpleasant aliens". The US uses its satellites to track all million marines and starts vectoring in response craft (first focusing on north america and then the rest of the world). Pretty much anything that will take out a tank will take out a SM.

Innis Cabal
2008-05-22, 09:42 PM
Your forgetting how the SM got here. What can handle a Space Marine Chapter Carrier? Nothing, exactly. The end result would be at least the most populous area's being taken out from high orbit if 1 millon Space Marines just happened to disappear. Also, there would be people comming to retrive the gene seeds from the Space Marines, and if 1 million just "popped" into nothing, i bet you the force to retrive all 2 million gene seeds is going to be strong.

SurlySeraph
2008-05-22, 09:44 PM
Thats like saying a tiger CAN be killed with screwdrivers. Sure it can, but I'll bet you that even if a bunch of people try they'll end up bloody stains and meat in a tigers stomach. Sure an SM CAN be killed with modern tech, but it will be very hard, and even with 20'000 people we might all DIE.

Exactly. No one's saying it would be easy, but we could beat him.

According to Leman Russ (if I remember correctly), a Space Marine is worth 10 normal troops. Well, even assuming that a normal soldier is worth 10 of us, there are still enough of us to come out victorious.

As for the "million SMs vs. Earth" scenario, I think the Marines would win. 6 billion people is a lot, but less than a billion of us are competent soldiers.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-22, 09:44 PM
Your forgetting how the SM got here. What can handle a Space Marine Chapter Carrier? Nothing, exactly. The end result would be at least the most populous area's being taken out from high orbit if 1 millon Space Marines just happened to disappear. Also, there would be people comming to retrive the gene seeds from the Space Marines, and if 1 million just "popped" into nothing, i bet you the force to retrive all 2 million gene seeds is going to be strong.

As I said, no support. Just the marines. Kinda like the original premise of this thread except on a much larger scale.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-22, 09:46 PM
Blah blah blah, stealth, no, just no, unless he's got stummers on his feet, those massive boots are making noise, his servos are whining (as they are consistently described as doing in the novels) we'd hear him coming.

You can cover your ears and deny all you want, it doesn't make them somehow louder. Their servos "whine" when they do crap like PICK UP TRUCKS. Their boots only make lots of noise when they're charging and firing their guns so much it doesnt matter. I don't care if you like or don't think it makes sense, the SM can be stealthy if they need to, hell thats the Night Lords THING. They can SILENT if they need to. Hell, he may have been legendary for his sneakiness, but Zso Sahaal is an excellent example of what I'm talking about. Now, he was an ancient and powerful Night Lord, so he'll be alot better at being stealthy than the bog standard SM, but still, when that guy didn't want you to know he was coming, you DIDN'T. He routinely snuck up on people from the lower hives, where it not only pays to look over your shoulder, its a requirement to stay alive, and they didn't even see him coming. Now, a normal SM wouldn't be nearly as stealthy, but he'd still be able to avoid detection for a good amount of time, long enough to do a good amount of damage.

Fanatic-Templar
2008-05-22, 10:16 PM
I'd try to convince the Space Marine to join with us and fight the real enemy, the bastard who brought us here to fight for his own amusement.

Failing that, I shoot psionic storms at him from behind a shield formed from the power of my mind.

13_CBS
2008-05-22, 10:24 PM
According to Leman Russ (if I remember correctly), a Space Marine is worth 10 normal troops. Well, even assuming that a normal soldier is worth 10 of us, there are still enough of us to come out victorious.



I'm pretty sure he was being metaphorical there. By "100 marines over 1000 any other troops" I'm pretty sure he meant, "give me some marines or, failing that, a crapload of other troops. That is, we marines are freaking awesome."



As for the "million SMs vs. Earth" scenario, I think the Marines would win. 6 billion people is a lot, but less than a billion of us are competent soldiers.

Actually, if we have air support and they don't, I'm pretty sure we could win. SMs might be excellent marksmen, but I don't think they can shoot fighter jets out of the sky. (Or maybe they can--I haven't read that much 40k literature.)

Note: the above assumes that all of those million SMs are armed with only normal bolters.

Zeful
2008-05-22, 10:25 PM
Power Armor recives guass rifle fire and holds up, mass drive technology, which isnt even practical in most situations, is not close to that powerful. Sorry Zeful but your hypothetical weapon wont do what you think it will to them

Except most guass weaponry has a penetration factor. My hypothetical weapon doesn't. Unlike every other piece of technology desgined for guass weapon use. This shell is designed to stop on any impact. Water will stop it. Most of our body, which is very similar to the space marine body, is mostly made of water. Water doesn't like being put under pressure. After a point water will exploit the path of least resistance, often destroying it's container. Unless space marine armor is elastic (which we all know it isn't (but if it was a teflon railroad spike would go through it like butter)) it won't absorb the energy and transfer it to the water-heavy body of our space marine. His blood is put under unnatural amounts of pressure and cause many of his blood vessels to rupture. He'll bleed to death internally, if the shock doesn't kill him out right (not likely).

In short, physics will kill him, not my shell.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-22, 10:29 PM
Actually, if we have air support and they don't, I'm pretty sure we could win. SMs might be excellent marksmen, but I don't think they can shoot fighter jets out of the sky. (Or maybe they can--I haven't read that much 40k literature.)

Note: the above assumes that all of those million SMs are armed with only normal bolters.

Hmm well, you're probably right, but I bet that after a while they could shoot down a few at least. that would be awesome.

Fri
2008-05-22, 10:37 PM
Oh, you know something we forgot?

The Giant is a member of the playground. We can beat the space marine with THE POWER OF CULTURE!

Or, even better. There should be at least one good singer in the playground. Space Marine-->Uncultured Warrior Breed for War. They stand no chance against our song.

[/robotech reference]

13_CBS
2008-05-22, 10:55 PM
Hmm well, you're probably right, but I bet that after a while they could shoot down a few at least. that would be awesome.

Incorrect. Space MArines do not shoot down aircraft. They leap onto aircraft from skyscrapers, rip out the pilots from their cockpits, ride the thing down, pick it up, and heave the whole thing into other aircraft.

While playing regicide.

Mr. Scaly
2008-05-22, 10:57 PM
This may be the single nerdiest thing I have ever read. My hat goes of to Goc. (bows)

And my money is on the 20,000 humans who have time to prepare as opposed to the single superhuman who is mentally incapable of anything subtle.

Jayngfet
2008-05-22, 10:59 PM
Hmm, this hypothetical marine is in metal armor right? We hit him with a huge magnet backed up by several car batteries, odds are he won't survive his armor warping as it bends to the will of an alien concept to him, logical science, a couple of playgrounders would be enough to lift it plus some backup weapons, even if he's not magnetic we unload enough rounds into him that he is.

Think about it, he'd be forced to move where we tell him while his armor warps so that he is unable to move in it on his own or take it off.

Talkkno
2008-05-22, 11:37 PM
I'm pretty sure he was being metaphorical there. By "100 marines over 1000 any other troops" I'm pretty sure he meant, "give me some marines or, failing that, a crapload of other troops. That is, we marines are freaking awesome."

It is reinforced in the novel Crimson Tears(that i don't have handy right now.....)where the narrator says "Each of member of the first company was as skilled was as skilled and equipped as any ten members of the Imperial Guard." Or something to that effect. However remember they are comparing it to the Guard, and they are most of the time well trained if normal humans. Lasguns have outputs at least in the megajoule range.(Compared to modern firearms which is the kilojoule range if i remember correctly.)

Verruckt
2008-05-23, 12:47 AM
You can cover your ears and deny all you want, it doesn't make them somehow louder. Their servos "whine" when they do crap like PICK UP TRUCKS. Their boots only make lots of noise when they're charging and firing their guns so much it doesnt matter. I don't care if you like or don't think it makes sense, the SM can be stealthy if they need to, hell thats the Night Lords THING. They can SILENT if they need to. Hell, he may have been legendary for his sneakiness, but Zso Sahaal is an excellent example of what I'm talking about. Now, he was an ancient and powerful Night Lord, so he'll be alot better at being stealthy than the bog standard SM, but still, when that guy didn't want you to know he was coming, you DIDN'T. He routinely snuck up on people from the lower hives, where it not only pays to look over your shoulder, its a requirement to stay alive, and they didn't even see him coming. Now, a normal SM wouldn't be nearly as stealthy, but he'd still be able to avoid detection for a good amount of time, long enough to do a good amount of damage.

You're forgetting that the Night Lords do employ stummers, but this is rather non codex, and i think we are assuming a SMurf, not one of the Scary Marines. We are facing a Smurf, who will fight us in a Codex Astartes fashion (read: dumb) I love space marines, i love 40k, it's just that a lone marine versus 20,000 untrained people with very advanced anti tank rockets will lose.

poleboy
2008-05-23, 01:03 AM
It was in a book

For the last time... according to the OP, the WH40K books and wargame do not exist. Using them in an argument in this thread = fail.

tyckspoon
2008-05-23, 01:14 AM
"Each of member of the first company was as skilled was as skilled and equipped as any ten members of the Imperial Guard." Or something to that effect. However remember they are comparing it to the Guard, and they are most of the time well trained if normal humans.

And since it's talking about a First Company, it's also talking about the veteran company of that chapter. They're the ones who form up for Honor Guards and Terminator squads.. they've got even more experience than the standard Marine and get to play with some of the more entertaining toys. Easily worth ten Guardsmen, although for a straight up firefight I'd still take the Guard.. presumably a solo vet marine has the sense and capability to avoid engaging in that.

NEO|Phyte
2008-05-23, 01:18 AM
For the last time... according to the OP, the WH40K books and wargame do not exist. Using them in an argument in this thread = fail.
I think you're reading the OP of a different thread, here.

1. For the purposes of this thread Warhammer 40k as both a novel or wargame don't exist in your world.
We here are free to use those sources. But to us in the world where The Game is, it's as though they didn't exist, meaning that if/when we see said marine, we don't magically know that we need to use anti-tank ordinance on him. Well, we might guess something like that, looking at the 10' armored figure.

Zakama
2008-05-23, 01:28 AM
Guys, guys. This won't be a problem. We have Brickwall, and he's Chuck Norris, remember? Just make him roundhouse kick the SM and we can all go home.

Oslecamo
2008-05-23, 02:34 AM
SM are invisible stealthy ninjas discourse.

Allow me to present you the sad philosophy about SM stealth, from a SM point of view:

Camouflage is the colour of fear... I have no need to hide from my foes... I have no fear of death. My colours I wear openly, they proclaim louder than any words, "I am proud to live - I am proud to die".

+++ Commander Carab Culln, Red Scorpions +++

He won't even try to hide. He's going to charge us head on.

Sure, in fluff there may be one or two SM who aren't idiot enough to don't try stealth, but those are the exception, the finest SM of all history, powerfull enough to get books writen about them.

It's a normal SM we're fighting here, not Acray the legendary who was steped by two titans dancing the macarena and killed a greater demon with a sharp nail.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-23, 07:25 AM
Allow me to present you the sad philosophy about SM stealth, from a SM point of view:

Camouflage is the colour of fear... I have no need to hide from my foes... I have no fear of death. My colours I wear openly, they proclaim louder than any words, "I am proud to live - I am proud to die".

+++ Commander Carab Culln, Red Scorpions +++

He won't even try to hide. He's going to charge us head on.

Sure, in fluff there may be one or two SM who aren't idiot enough to don't try stealth, but those are the exception, the finest SM of all history, powerfull enough to get books writen about them.

It's a normal SM we're fighting here, not Acray the legendary who was steped by two titans dancing the macarena and killed a greater demon with a sharp nail.

Thats the DUMBEST thing I've heard in awhile. So a marine from ONE chapter doesn't hide, so ALL marines must charge head on into battle? :smallsigh: no. For one, all SM chapters are different, and SM aren't stupid. maybe if we were fighting a RED SCORPION you might have a case, but we AREN'T. And books aren't written about just the best of the best, they're written about SM, why? Because ALL SM ARE LIKE THAT. Thats the POINT. SM don't do the stupid tabletop style all out charge unless they think it will work, it just so happens it usually WILL, because they're SPACE MARINES.


You're forgetting that the Night Lords do employ stummers, but this is rather non codex, and i think we are assuming a SMurf, not one of the Scary Marines. We are facing a Smurf, who will fight us in a Codex Astartes fashion (read: dumb) I love space marines, i love 40k, it's just that a lone marine versus 20,000 untrained people with very advanced anti tank rockets will lose.

I'm sure Roboute Guilliman would find fault with that logic, what with him being a military genius and all. I think you're forgetting that when someone writes a book about something (in this case, Space Marine fighting tactics) that it is used as the base for all the different chapters must be pretty damn good. Its not like Roboute Guilliman was just a retard, and the Emperor just went "you know, for the hell of it, I'm going to use this retarded book of stupid battle ideas as the basis for my superhuman warriors' strategies"

Astartes aren't dumb, they never have been dumb, and they never will be dumb, and neither is the Codex Astartes.

Oslecamo
2008-05-23, 07:47 AM
Thats the DUMBEST thing I've heard in awhile. So a marine from ONE chapter doesn't hide, so ALL marines must charge head on into battle? :smallsigh: no. For one, all SM chapters are different, and SM aren't stupid. maybe if we were fighting a RED SCORPION you might have a case, but we AREN'T. And books aren't written about just the best of the best, they're written about SM, why? Because ALL SM ARE LIKE THAT. Thats the POINT. SM don't do the stupid tabletop style all out charge unless they think it will work, it just so happens it usually WILL, because they're SPACE MARINES.

It was the freacking comander who said this.

And fine. Want other chapters?

The uniforms of the Imperial Guard are camouflaged in order to protect their wearers by hiding them from sight.

The principle is that what the enemy cannot see he cannot kill. This is not the way of the Adeptus Astartes. A Space Marine’s armour is bright with heraldry that proclaims his devotion to his Chapter and the beloved Emperor of Mankind. Our principle is that what the enemy can see, he will soon learn to fear…
+++ Chaplain Aston, 10th Company, Fire Hawks Chapter +++

Again, other chapter aproves that hiding is for the IG.



The enemy have been sighted. I am going to engage. In the name of the Emperor: Ravenwing - Attack! Attack! ATTACK!

+++ Grand Master Gideon of the Ravenwing +++

The RavenWing chapter also seems to think subtelty is a sign of weakness.

It is the way of Fenris. We stay as long as we can. Fight as hard as we can. Kill as much as we can. Only when we can do no more do we move on.

+++ Skold Greypelt of the Space Wolves on Shadrac +++

The famous space wolves agree: retreat is not an option.

A battle for supremacy against many foes is a battle of the best kind. There are few considerations, only those concerning where to place your next shot. It is war in its purest form.

+++ Commander Karziel, Ultramarines 5th Company +++

The ultramarines confirm that against greater numbers, the best tactics is to keep shooting. And the ultramarines are one of the smartest chapters. Heck, they were the ones who wrote the manuals.


So you may want to rewrite your definition of "all", since it seems that there are several chapters that don't give a damn about stealth or retreat, and one of them is the chapter wich teaches the other chapters.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-23, 07:52 AM
It was the freacking comander who said this.

And fine. Want other chapters?

The uniforms of the Imperial Guard are camouflaged in order to protect their wearers by hiding them from sight.

The principle is that what the enemy cannot see he cannot kill. This is not the way of the Adeptus Astartes. A Space Marine’s armour is bright with heraldry that proclaims his devotion to his Chapter and the beloved Emperor of Mankind. Our principle is that what the enemy can see, he will soon learn to fear…
+++ Chaplain Aston, 10th Company, Fire Hawks Chapter +++

Again, other chapter aproves that hiding is for the IG.



The enemy have been sighted. I am going to engage. In the name of the Emperor: Ravenwing - Attack! Attack! ATTACK!

+++ Grand Master Gideon of the Ravenwing +++

The RavenWing chapter also seems to think subtelty is a sign of weakness.

It is the way of Fenris. We stay as long as we can. Fight as hard as we can. Kill as much as we can. Only when we can do no more do we move on.

+++ Skold Greypelt of the Space Wolves on Shadrac +++

The famous space wolves agree: retreat is not an option.

A battle for supremacy against many foes is a battle of the best kind. There are few considerations, only those concerning where to place your next shot. It is war in its purest form.

+++ Commander Karziel, Ultramarines 5th Company +++

The ultramarines confirm that against greater numbers, the best tactics is to keep shooting. And the ultramarines are one of the smartest chapters. Heck, they were the ones who wrote the manuals.


So you may want to rewrite your definition of "all", since it seems that there are several chapters that don't give a damn about stealth or retreat, and one of them is the chapter wich teaches the other chapters.

Wow, you're ability to take single quotes from single commanders and people about situations that are no doubt very dissimilar from this one (in that there's probably a bunch more SM, among other things) and somehow mold them into how everyone from their chapters feels in every situation is astounding. Hell, why use whole books as a reference, when I can pull out one quote, and use it for the basis of my whole argument, and if I need more quotes, well I'll just pluck one out of each book. http://forum.spacebattles.com/forumimg/smilies//rolleyes.gif

Lostintransit
2008-05-23, 08:04 AM
It was the freacking comander who said this.
<Snip>

The ultramarines confirm that against greater numbers, the best tactics is to keep shooting. And the ultramarines are one of the smartest chapters. Heck, they were the ones who wrote the manuals.

So you may want to rewrite your definition of "all", since it seems that there are several chapters that don't give a damn about stealth or retreat, and one of them is the chapter wich teaches the other chapters.

Quite interesting....

In general marines behave in a sensible and tactical fashion, applying logical actions to win battles, however, their style of training and status as 'Knights' tends to lend themselves to the heroic last stand scenerio, it is heavily urged and trained against, but seeing as they are taught all these heroic last stand stories, they tend to want to emmulate it, allowing them to be remembered in legend.

This leads to most marines fighting sensibly but should a sitution arise that allows them to gloriously go down killing hundreds if not thousands of enemy troops to by others time, they may act upon it.

A good example i can think of is in one of the ultramarine books where they are defending a world from nids, with the aid of another chapter, and to allow the guard to pull back to better defensive positions they stand there ground allowing the nids to encircle them and slowly get whittled down all the while killing thousands upon thousands of nids. I will point out this was around 100 marines and even after the battle was won only about 50 of them had actually fallen. And it actually mentions in the book about how not only is it tactical for helping the guard but it also allows them to be 'heros' which is kinda their thing.

It also mentions what i said above about the whole 'last stand thing'. Another example would be the cover of the 3rd edition marine codex with the crimson fists in a defensive circle fighting to the last. Now generally speaking these events happen rarely because you don't want to lose that many super soldiers in one go.

Oh I think its mentioned in the soul drinkers book as well.....

Regards

Verruckt
2008-05-23, 08:06 AM
meh, I could debate the merits of the codex all day (seeing as how it was actually written, or at least described, by someone who is not a military genius. But was in fact written by a model maker in Nottingham England :smalltongue:) In addition, the only unit within a codex setup that uses stealth is the scout company. (the main issue I take with the codex is its setup is over compartmentalized It puts specializations into individual companies as opposed to spreading specializations throughout the companies, making for a difficult to maneuver force. If say the transport barge of the 9th company gets hit in orbit during a chapter wide conflict, a good portion of the chapters devastator support is gone in one fireball. I understand they're nature as a reserve, but in reality they'd be more flexible if they were organized as the 2nd - 5th companies.) So if we run into a scout, 20 thousand of us could easily take him down with our glocks, he doesn't have anything like as powerful as marine power armor

Lostintransit
2008-05-23, 08:15 AM
meh, I could debate the merits of the codex all day (seeing as how it was actually written, or at least described, by someone who is not a military genius. But was in fact written by a model maker in Nottingham England :smalltongue:) In addition, the only unit within a codex setup that uses stealth is the scout company. (the main issue I take with the codex is its setup is over compartmentalized It puts specializations into individual companies as opposed to spreading specializations throughout the companies, making for a difficult to maneuver force. If say the transport barge of the 9th company gets hit in orbit during a chapter wide conflict, a good portion of the chapters devastator support is gone in one fireball. I understand they're nature as a reserve, but in reality they'd be more flexible if they were organized as the 2nd - 5th companies.) So if we run into a scout, 20 thousand of us could easily take him down with our glocks, he doesn't have anything like as powerful as marine power armor

Actually companies are rarely deployed 'in whole' so to speak, what usually happens is different elements from different companies are put together in different battle groups allowing for great tactical flexability. However when entire companies are required you tend to get the battle companies which have a mix of specialalities.

The apocalypse book describes this in greater detail, and seeing how all the marines are training together almost 24/7 and taught how to use the different weapons, alongside the advanced communications, allows them to operate effectively.

Regards

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-23, 08:21 AM
meh, I could debate the merits of the codex all day (seeing as how it was actually written, or at least described, by someone who is not a military genius. But was in fact written by a model maker in Nottingham England :smalltongue:) In addition, the only unit within a codex setup that uses stealth is the scout company. (the main issue I take with the codex is its setup is over compartmentalized It puts specializations into individual companies as opposed to spreading specializations throughout the companies, making for a difficult to maneuver force. If say the transport barge of the 9th company gets hit in orbit during a chapter wide conflict, a good portion of the chapters devastator support is gone in one fireball. I understand they're nature as a reserve, but in reality they'd be more flexible if they were organized as the 2nd - 5th companies.) So if we run into a scout, 20 thousand of us could easily take him down with our glocks, he doesn't have anything like as powerful as marine power armor

1. Only scouts use stealth in LARGE COMBAT situations, where things like full frontal charges are PRACTICAL for the SM.
2. No, you couldn't take down a scout with glocks, not even close, his armor isn't as good as an SM's but its still good enough to stand up to easily stand up to small arms fire.

Verruckt
2008-05-23, 08:25 AM
right, it's just that the codex doesn't cover those eventualities, however, allow me to retract my generalizations about SMurf tactical ability, all I'm trying to say is that 20,000 of us could paste one marine with minimal casualties given the equipment we could get our hands on. Simmilarly, a million marines suddenly appearing on the planet's surface could be dealt with by our millitaries, but one chapter with all the fixings (barge, communications, transports) could dismantle the current world order with a aeries of rapid strikes. It's a quantifiable rule of inverse awesomeness.

and no, a glock won't kill him, enfilade fire from 20,000 glocks all at once will, or 100, or 50 for that matter, quantity has its own quality, not matter the caliber of the rounds

Player_Zero
2008-05-23, 08:26 AM
My money is on the space marine... There is nothing which any playgrounder could possible obtain would could put a dent in his armour for one. Also, space marines are picked from millions upon millions people as POSSIBLE candidates for being a space marine.

Then if they aren't killed by the years of training and torturous implants they become not only superhuman but about five hundred times more hard than a coffin nail. They could beat up Gumbercules with both hands tied behind their back.

And I'm willing to bet that most playgrounders are hardly superhuman killing machines at the best of times...

GoC
2008-05-23, 08:42 AM
Thats the DUMBEST thing I've heard in awhile. So a marine from ONE chapter doesn't hide, so ALL marines must charge head on into battle? :smallsigh: no. For one, all SM chapters are different, and SM aren't stupid. maybe if we were fighting a RED SCORPION you might have a case, but we AREN'T. And books aren't written about just the best of the best, they're written about SM, why? Because ALL SM ARE LIKE THAT. Thats the POINT. SM don't do the stupid tabletop style all out charge unless they think it will work, it just so happens it usually WILL, because they're SPACE MARINES.
Ok, clarification: The SM is from a chapter that places no emphasis on stealth.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-23, 08:47 AM
Ok, clarification: The SM is from a chapter that places no emphasis on stealth.

Again this hardly matters, all SM put the emphasis on stealth that its required in certain situations, why? Because it makes TACTICAL SENSE. Even IRON WARRIORS know how to freaking sneak around, and you know why? BECAUSE THEY AREN'T STUPID. I mean you people think that just because he's an SM he'll assume he can just charge at us and kill us all, despite all this supposed heavy ordinance. NO. He would use his BRAIN, and his BRAIN would tell him that against large numbers with powerful weaponry, things like hit and run tactics will work best.

EvilDMMk3
2008-05-23, 08:51 AM
I just realized, in my educational line I have access to hydrofluoric acid. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrofluoric_acid) Fe liters of that and, well, it may well inconvenience him. Nothing in the poison cabinet is likely top help but solvents?

GoC
2008-05-23, 09:28 AM
Again this hardly matters, all SM put the emphasis on stealth that its required in certain situations, why? Because it makes TACTICAL SENSE. Even IRON WARRIORS know how to freaking sneak around, and you know why? BECAUSE THEY AREN'T STUPID. I mean you people think that just because he's an SM he'll assume he can just charge at us and kill us all, despite all this supposed heavy ordinance. NO. He would use his BRAIN, and his BRAIN would tell him that against large numbers with powerful weaponry, things like hit and run tactics will work best.

Exactly!
Hit and run tactics using superior speed! NOT stealth!

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-23, 09:36 AM
Exactly!
Hit and run tactics using superior speed! NOT stealth!

I said things LIKE. But again, discounting stealth totally is stupid and makes no sense, its like saying because say... Tigers, yea tigers, because tigers are big and mean and can pretty much wtfpwn anything they feel like, they aren't going to sneak around at all, and since they're really big and colorful cats you'll be able to see them, but you know just ask some dude who went tiger hunting if this is true, oh wait you probably can't, because most people who go looking for tigers without vastly superior firepower and numbers DIE HORRIBLY. And thats a TIGER. NOW were talking about a tactically minded, 7-10 foot tall, heavily armored warrior with a gun that shoots RPG BULLETS, and a knife the size of a shortsword. I'm not saying he's definitely going to win, I'm just saying people are vastly underestimating how deadly SM can be.

Verruckt
2008-05-23, 10:03 AM
but you know just ask some dude who went tiger hunting if this is true, oh wait you probably can't, because most people who go looking for tigers without vastly superior firepower and numbers DIE HORRIBLY.

20,000 civillians and a few military individuals armed with anti tank rockets = numbers and firepower, we don't think he's going down easy, thats why WE BROUGHT ANTI TANK WEAPONS FOR GOD'S SAKE! No one is saying space marines suck, we are saying that is is difficult to sneak around in a ton of motorized ceramite. I concede he would be cautious, I concede he'd kill a few of us, but we would win, by a vast margin. He would never get past the first "hit" in a hit and run operation, because there would be an explosively formed copper spike in his torso.

Ossian
2008-05-23, 10:16 AM
Ten days from the call huh? Piece of cake...
First thing, I buy an airplane ticket. Destination: Texas.
Second thing: At the airport I buy an american flag.
Third thing: rush to a costumes shop and get myself a replica of a US Marine high uniform (the one with the white bancroft cap, blue jacket, throusers with red band on the side) with full complement of accessories (yay, saber too)
Fourth: since the alternative is death, I won´t be saving money or bother about the laws and regulations. I buy the stars and the ranks insigna, appopint them on my jacket. That is illegal, but makes the thing look real. Why? Wait and see.
Fifth: I shave. This sucks, but the beards will grow, if I live past the game.
Sixth: I spend the remaining 9 days trying to find out where a certain prson lives and, if at all possible, try to get an idea of his routine.
7th: at 11.00 of the Game Day I start hanging out at his place. Fully dressed in Marine costume. I hold the flag casually folded.
8th: I ring his doorbell. He is sure to receive me, given my disguise.
9th: at 11.59, I shake hands with chuck norris.
10th: teleport engages. All the fellow playgrounders see who I am with. They were ready to outnumber the SM dying in the dozens. They smile with relief.
11th: the SM dies (roundhouse kick)
12th: I die (for what I dared to do, same death cause, same kick that killed the SM probably, or its shockwave.)

Since Chuck hit me, there is no resurrection, and I don´t get teleported back. I just die, beyond spell or prayer.

But I die happy, because thanks to me no playgrounder had to die.

O.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-23, 10:22 AM
20,000 civillians and a few military individuals armed with anti tank rockets = numbers and firepower, we don't think he's going down easy, thats why WE BROUGHT ANTI TANK WEAPONS FOR GOD'S SAKE! No one is saying space marines suck, we are saying that is is difficult to sneak around in a ton of motorized ceramite. I concede he would be cautious, I concede he'd kill a few of us, but we would win, by a vast margin. He would never get past the first "hit" in a hit and run operation, because there would be an explosively formed copper spike in his torso.

So basically we have a bunch of probably unarmed civilians, maybe a couple hundred to a few thousand armed with small arms (I'm counting things like assault rifles as small arms) and a few people with anti-tank weaponry, against a highly trained, extremely powerful, very talented and very deadly KILLING MACHINE. You assume you'll be able to HIT him. You assume the guy with the gun most likely to kill him won't be shot FIRST (tactical analyzing is grand don't you think?) You assume we'll be able to FIND him. You assume WRONG. More than "a few" people will die. Hundreds, if not thousands will probably die before someone is not only lucky enough hit him, but hit him with a powerful enough gun successfully enough to kill him (a glancing blow with an anti tank gun would probably knock him off his feet and dent his armor, then he would kill you) By the end we'll probably have lost thousands of people, mostly anyone with a gun or a means of defending themselves, as they would be the greatest tactical threat. If we AREN'T lucky enough to take him down before anyone with any chance of killing him dies by way of RPG bullets literally filling them full of holes, the rest of us will be systematically hunted down and killed. Or hell, once anyone with the training to fire an anti tank gun is dead, he could probably charge all of us head on and WIN, because our small arms won't be enough to kill him, and all of our unarmed civilians certainly won't. If we aren't lucky enough to kill him early, were screwed, make no mistake about it.

EvilDMMk3
2008-05-23, 10:32 AM
So basically we have a bunch of probably unarmed civilians, maybe a couple hundred to a few thousand armed with small arms (I'm counting things like assault rifles as small arms) and a few people with anti-tank weaponry,

And several bottles of the old hydrofluoric. That stuff is SCARY guys.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-23, 10:39 AM
And several bottles of the old hydrofluoric. That stuff is SCARY guys.

Power Armor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equipment_of_the_Imperium_%28Warhammer_40%2C000%29 #Power_Armour)

Power Armor (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Power_Armor)

Power Armor (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Power_armor)

Seraph
2008-05-23, 10:42 AM
And several bottles of the old hydrofluoric. That stuff is SCARY guys.

and thermite pit traps. thermite will melt anything.

Shadowcaller
2008-05-23, 10:42 AM
Basically we would not stand a chance.
Of course it is impossible to foresee what every individual would do but I very much doubt that everyone is going to agree with each other.
We would see people forming into small groups each with their own goal (no we are humans everyone don't think logically all the time.)
Many of us would panic right there and tried to flee or run instead of go with the attack group.
And then when he begins shotting at us I don't think anyone is going to stand their ground with hundreds, thousands corpses laying around us, we would break and flee instantly.
Our moral would be broken far too easily to be even a threat to the marine.
Many of us have never even been near a weapon before.
We would never be able to organize us, the fear of death would drive many of us away right in the beginning.

Edit: Sure its easy to sit here and think this throught but do you really think you can imagine how the marine is shooting the people next to you?
How they die in masses, the blood, the screams...
Most of us would break just by seeing one person die.

Smeik
2008-05-23, 10:59 AM
Power Armor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equipment_of_the_Imperium_%28Warhammer_40%2C000%29 #Power_Armour)

Power Armor (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Power_Armor)

Power Armor (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Power_armor)



Power Armor is made out of Ceramite (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ceramite), a ceramic material. Hydrofluoric Acid dissolves any creamic. Your point?

I think it's similar to the "how many five-year olds can you take on" scenario a while back here on the forum. Only much worse for us, the five-year old. because instead of a normal human, we have to take on a superhuman killermachine.

If it fails to kill him with all the weaponry we have with us, we can still just liteally drown the Space Marine in our blood. I don't know if you realize how many people 20000 are, but all together in a forest with only one enemy... We are actually bound to win, due to our body mass. All of us together can tackle him and made him drown in the swamp the ground has become due to the blood loss of our fallen.:smalleek:

Shadowcaller
2008-05-23, 11:03 AM
Wait, you think that every playgrounder is going to rush against the marine no matter how many of us that die?
That is not human behavior, I know I would turn and run away quite fast.
We are not units in some game, we don't mindlessly rush against an enemy no matter how many that dies.
Many of us would turn back and run away as soon as the marine starts shooting. A very few of us have ever been in a situation where people around us is dying and suddenly everyone aound us is dying in masses. Do you really think we would handel that?

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-23, 11:05 AM
Power Armor is made out of Ceramite (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ceramite), a ceramic material. Hydrofluoric Acid dissolves any creamic. Your point?

I think it's similar to the "how many five-year olds can you take on" scenario a while back here on the forum. Only much worse for us, the five-year old. because instead of a normal human, we have to take on a superhuman killermachine.

If it fails to kill him with all the weaponry we have with us, we can still just liteally drown the Space Marine in our blood. I don't know if you realize how many people 20000 are, but all together in a forest with only one enemy... We are actually bound to win, due to our body mass. All of us together can tackle him and made him drown in the swamp the ground has become due to the blood loss of our fallen.:smalleek:

If a terminator can survive being stepped on by a TITAN, what makes you think a SM will die when a bunch of normal people tackle him? Not that that many people would survive the charge anyway.

GoC
2008-05-23, 11:26 AM
I said things LIKE. But again, discounting stealth totally is stupid and makes no sense, its like saying because say... Tigers, yea tigers, because tigers are big and mean and can pretty much wtfpwn anything they feel like, they aren't going to sneak around at all, and since they're really big and colorful cats you'll be able to see them, but you know just ask some dude who went tiger hunting if this is true, oh wait you probably can't, because most people who go looking for tigers without vastly superior firepower and numbers DIE HORRIBLY. And thats a TIGER. NOW were talking about a tactically minded, 7-10 foot tall, heavily armored warrior with a gun that shoots RPG BULLETS, and a knife the size of a shortsword. I'm not saying he's definitely going to win, I'm just saying people are vastly underestimating how deadly SM can be.
Your analogy really sucks.
Comparing tigers to SMs? Saying that people who go tiger hunting without many other people and heavy weaponry always die?


*snip*
I suggest you recheck this post because there are quite a few flaws in your reasoning.


Not that that many people would survive the charge anyway.
The number who survive isn't 20000/x but 20000-x. He can only kill as many people as he can fire bullets and IIRC bolters can't be fired 10000+ times before reloading.

LCR
2008-05-23, 11:26 AM
I guess this has already been said, but oh well:

That poor Space Marine is facing roughly 20,000 people who have nothing better to do all day than comparing military units from one fantasy universe with another.
He'll be dead before he even knew what hit him.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-23, 11:29 AM
Your analogy really sucks.
Comparing tigers to SMs? Saying that people who go tiger hunting without many other people and heavy weaponry always die?

No, your comprehension skills really suck. I mean, unless you are well and truly prepared for the level of the threat you're going to tackle, you're going to die. This situation is comparable to a bunch of civilians, a couple guys with dart guns, and maybe a dude with a shotgun, trying to kill a tiger, in the jungle. Its possible, but it will be very hard, and its very likely you'll all die.



I suggest you recheck this post because there are quite a few flaws in your reasoning.

Because you snipped it, I have no idea which post you're talking about.


The number who survive isn't 20000/x but 20000-x. He can only kill as many people as he can fire bullets and IIRC bolters can't be fired 10000+ times before reloading.

Do you honestly think everyone is going to see him, and everyone is going to charge him? Hell, if 20'000 people DID charge him he could retreat while firing into the onrushing horde. No doubt, given our numbers, countless numbers of us will be crushed under the feet of the other, and even if this is a standard SM, he's bound to have frag and/or krak grenades on his person, all of this means that even if we catch up to him a LOT of us will died, and I don't think the remaining number of people tackling him will be enough to kill him. Thats very thick and good armor, and its totally sealed, he could be in an ocean of our blood and bodies and cut his way out. A full frontal charge is NOT in our favor.

Verruckt
2008-05-23, 11:30 AM
okay, i think people are seriously underestimating the power of modern anti tank missiles, you make it seem like a glancing hit is probable, this is the most maneuverable missile currently deployed anywhere, and has a targeting system to match, we will hit him, and a glancing hit will not "knock him over" it will blow limbs off.

here:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Dezg8aflMmk
http://youtube.com/watch?v=u-dOJG4kXMA&feature=related
also has a top attack mode:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=M9VBbSqaa_w

and a detailed description:

Javelin is a fire-and-forget missile with lock-on before launch and automatic self-guidance. The system takes a top-attack flight profile against armored vehicles (attacking the top armor which is generally thinner) but can also take a direct-attack mode for use against buildings or fortifications. This missile also has the ability to engage helicopters in the direct attack mode. The missile reaches a peak altitude of 150m in top attack mode and 50m in direct fire mode. The missile is equipped with an imaging infrared seeker. The tandem warhead is fitted with two shaped charges - a precursor warhead to detonate any explosive reactive armor and a primary warhead to penetrate base armor. The Javelin was used in the 2003 Invasion of Iraq, with devastating effects on Iraqi copies of T-72s and Type 69 tanks


are we clear now? WHEN A JAVELIN HITS YOU, YOU ****ING DIE!

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-23, 11:39 AM
okay, i think people are seriously underestimating the power of modern anti tank missiles, you make it seem like a glancing hit is probable, this is the most maneuverable missile currently deployed anywhere, and has a targeting system to match, we will hit him, and a glancing hit will not "knock him over" it will blow limbs off.

here:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Dezg8aflMmk
http://youtube.com/watch?v=u-dOJG4kXMA&feature=related
also has a top attack mode:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=M9VBbSqaa_w

and a detailed description:

Javelin is a fire-and-forget missile with lock-on before launch and automatic self-guidance. The system takes a top-attack flight profile against armored vehicles (attacking the top armor which is generally thinner) but can also take a direct-attack mode for use against buildings or fortifications. This missile also has the ability to engage helicopters in the direct attack mode. The missile reaches a peak altitude of 150m in top attack mode and 50m in direct fire mode. The missile is equipped with an imaging infrared seeker. The tandem warhead is fitted with two shaped charges - a precursor warhead to detonate any explosive reactive armor and a primary warhead to penetrate base armor. The Javelin was used in the 2003 Invasion of Iraq, with devastating effects on Iraqi copies of T-72s and Type 69 tanks


are we clear now? WHEN A JAVELIN HITS YOU, YOU ****ING DIE!

I don't think YOU get how tough power armor is. People who can shrug off continued autocannon fire, tank rounds, and lightning bolts like they were nothing, aren't going to just roll over and die. Also, as a previous poster mentioned, can they even target an SM, I mean he may be a 7' armored superhuman, but he's not vehicle size.

Verruckt
2008-05-23, 11:51 AM
uh, can you please find me a canon example of them walking through a tank round direct hit? Ceramite < CHOBAM (layered DU, aluminum, KEVLAR, and RDH steel), and the javelin goes through inches of CHOBAM like paper,so yes, he dies. And Javelins can track any heat emission of some size, they have no trouble locking on to human body heat, or the heat from a pickup truck's engine, and I'd wager that a marine gives off a good deal more lock-on bait.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-23, 11:57 AM
uh, can you please find me a canon example of them walking through a tank round direct hit?

I can't find the exact quote right now, but its been cited on a number of forums a number of times.


Ceramite < CHOBAM (layered DU, aluminum, KEVLAR, and RDH steel), and the javelin goes through inches of CHOBAM like paper,so yes, he dies.

Do you have any proof of this or, indeed, that its the same Ceramite? Just because it has the same name as something real doesn't mean it IS something real, kind of like how in Warhammer 40k when they talk about an autocannon they generally mean something more or less like an automatic tank gun.


And Javelins can track any heat emission of some size, they have no trouble locking on to human body heat, or the heat from a pickup truck's engine, and I'd wager that a marine gives off a good deal more lock-on bait.

I'd stay away from a casino, because apparently you tend to wager badly.

GoC
2008-05-23, 12:02 PM
No, your comprehension skills really suck. I mean, unless you are well and truly prepared for the level of the threat you're going to tackle, you're going to die. This situation is comparable to a bunch of civilians, a couple guys with dart guns, and maybe a dude with a shotgun, trying to kill a tiger, in the jungle. Its possible, but it will be very hard, and its very likely you'll all die.
That addresses the second point but not the poorness of comparing a massive armored humanoid with a slinking camouflaged tiger.
Those people aren't going in prepared while giantitpers are likely to bring heavy weaponry. You also really overestimate a tiger. If it sneaks up it can sneak attack one person then it's going to die.
Even unarmed several civilians could take down a tiger if they've got the guts to attack it. There's a reason tigers attack animals that are alone or without a herd nearby.


Because you snipped it, I have no idea which post you're talking about.
Click the green thing next to you name in the quote.


Do you honestly think everyone is going to see him, and everyone is going to charge him? Hell, if 20'000 people DID charge him he could retreat while firing into the onrushing horde. No doubt, given our numbers, countless numbers of us will be crushed under the feet of the other, and even if this is a standard SM, he's bound to have frag and/or krak grenades on his person, all of this means that even if we catch up to him a LOT of us will died, and I don't think the remaining number of people tackling him will be enough to kill him. Thats very thick and good armor, and its totally sealed, he could be in an ocean of our blood and bodies and cut his way out. A full frontal charge is NOT in our favor.
Each grenade is only going to kill 20 or so people. 20,000 is a LOT of canon-fodder.
You are correct on people being too scared or concerned about their own safety to charge but you need to use the proper reasons. He's not going to be able to kill even a tenth of them before they close in if he stands still.
You could have said that he'll fire and retreat before being overwhelmed and indeed that could be how he'll win but saying few people will survive the charge is just plain wrong.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-23, 12:21 PM
I meant, if everyone goes charging straight at him, unarmed (which is how MOST people will be, and pretty much all the rest might as well be, for all the good that an ak would do against power armor, which only leaves a few people at best who could kill him, a few easily picked off people, carrying a big ass gun kind of sets you apart from the unarmed rabble) by the time we got to him, considerable numbers will have died, as a result of both his efforts and the various mishaps and deaths that occur in a massive charge like that (like slower people getting crushed under foot) And if you DO get to him... so what? He's in a totally enclosed, sealed off armor suit. And not only that, he's big and strong enough to literally WADE through a crowd of people trying to drag him down, shooting, smashing, and probably cutting people down all around him. In the end, even if we eventually won (like someone was lucky enough to unclasp his helmet in the melee, and some dude with a shotgun fired at him point blank) a LOT of people will be dead.

And yes I realize the tiger analogy isn't perfect. Maybe it would be better if the tiger were unnaturally large, strong, and much smarter, smart enough to target the people with the guns first.

chiasaur11
2008-05-23, 12:28 PM
I meant, if everyone goes charging straight at him, unarmed (which is how MOST people will be, and pretty much all the rest might as well be, for all the good that an ak would do against power armor, which only leaves a few people at best who could kill him, a few easily picked off people, carrying a big ass gun kind of sets you apart from the unarmed rabble) by the time we got to him, considerable numbers will have died, as a result of both his efforts and the various mishaps and deaths that occur in a massive charge like that (like slower people getting crushed under foot) And if you DO get to him... so what? He's in a totally enclosed, sealed off armor suit. And not only that, he's big and strong enough to literally WADE through a crowd of people trying to drag him down, shooting, smashing, and probably cutting people down all around him. In the end, even if we eventually won (like someone was lucky enough to unclasp his helmet in the melee, and some dude with a shotgun fired at him point blank) a LOT of people will be dead.

And yes I realize the tiger analogy isn't perfect. Maybe it would be better if the tiger were unnaturally large, strong, and much smarter, smart enough to target the people with the guns first.

Well, everyne has at least a handgun, and, since he doesn't know much about our current tech, his priority sytem might not be correct at the beginning.

And, despite your insistence, a hugely muscled guy in multi ton armor couldn't run at all fast. Heck, he might die just from running into real world physics.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-23, 12:40 PM
Well, everyne has at least a handgun, and, since he doesn't know much about our current tech, his priority sytem might not be correct at the beginning.

Even in 40k a handgun is a handgun and a freaking ANTI TANK gun is an ANTI TANK gun. I think he can pretty much figure out "all the guys with the pistols probably can't even scratch my armors paint, but those guys could really hurt or kill me" So no, given his training and knack for the weapons of war, I think he'll figure out who's a threat pretty early.


And, despite your insistence, a hugely muscled guy in multi ton armor couldn't run at all fast. Heck, he might die just from running into real world physics.

According to the fluff they can run really fast (not least of all because its POWER armor, armor that uses energy to make the user STRONGER, and it also basically makes it weightless for him, plus its practically a PART of him) and if the fluff says it, its true. No Buts.

Oslecamo
2008-05-23, 12:59 PM
Lord asmodeus, since you refuse to read anything that doesn't suit you, I'm going to try to clarify some points:

1-Every playgrounder has at least a glock. And with 20.000 people shooting we can literally burrow him in lead.

2-The SM only weapons are a chainsword and a regular bolter. No grenades, no heavy bolters, no close combat knive, nothing.

3-It was ONE SM who was steped by a titan and lived to tell the tale. In all history. And guess what, he was wearing terminator armor, wich makes regular power armor look like it's made of paper.

4-No matter how much you want to believe, SM can die. They die everyday in the WH40k. Sure, some of them survive big perils, and end up becoming masters, but those are the best who end becoming comanders, not the average, and it's the average we're fighting here. That lucky one eated a tank shell and lived. The other unlucky one was hit by a regular arrow and died(yes this hapened in the books. Go figure.).

I can't convice you otherwise with quotes and fluff, so please tell me, what I'm allowed to use? Am I suposed to find a SM, get a group of neutral witness, and proceed to shoot him with several weapons and under diferent conditions, carefully taping and registering everything, and then send the smoking remains of the SM and the results to your home as a proof?

Innis Cabal
2008-05-23, 01:05 PM
1. Rushing him, what good would that do other then lining people up for him to kill? He has a semi-automatic gun that shoots .75 milimeter bullets that are rocket propelled. They are going through the first line, probably the second, thats a good deal of people to climb over, stalling us. Grenades even more so, flaming and shattered bodies are hard to run or dodge when you are a giant screaming mass of people

2. The power armor is apart of him, read the Black Carapace, he isnt going to be slamming around in what is essentially his second skin

3. Taking away things an SM can do because we cant defend against it isnt the right way to go about this. The SM can sneak if he can sneak, if we can call in favors with the military, and by doing that involve the military, then if and when we kill him the fact of the matter is, people are comming for his gene seeds, thats an inevitablity you all need to deal with. And when they come, it wont be one more SM, its going to be an SM with alot of friends madder then hell and looking for the culprit.

and so what your saying is, the SM dosnt have a full compliment of what he would normally have in a regular combat scanario and we have access to the best military weapondry in the world? In other words, the battle is stacked in our favor and all of your arguments center around things that either wont hurt him or he'll figure out because he is born to kill everything the Emperor points to?

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-23, 01:09 PM
1-Every playgrounder has at least a glock. And with 20.000 people shooting we can literally burrow him in lead.

Which will do CRAP ALL against his power armor, hell he could probably chuck the bullets back at you and get better results


2-The SM only weapons are a chainsword and a regular bolter. No grenades, no heavy bolters, no close combat knive, nothing.

I didn't recall him getting a CHAINSWORD, in that case anyone who gets close is SCREWED and if you happen to get within 10 feet of him at least, you'd better hope the blood bones and gristle from our poor hapless fellows have started blocking up the motors in his chainsword.


3-It was ONE SM who was steped by a titan and lived to tell the tale. In all history. And guess what, he was wearing terminator armor, wich makes regular power armor look like it's made of paper.

My point was, that if you scale it down so that instead of Titan and Terminator its A bunch of people and a Space Marine, its not going to work. Since we aren't going to get anything near 20'000 people on top of him at once, unless of course they're corpses, I doubt bogging him down with numbers will work.


4-No matter how much you want to believe, SM can die. They die everyday in the WH40k. Sure, some of them survive big perils, and end up becoming masters, but those are the best who end becoming comanders, not the average, and it's the average we're fighting here. That lucky one eated a tank shell and lived. The other unlucky one was hit by a regular arrow and died(yes this hapened in the books. Go figure.).

They do die, they also fight through rooms packed with bloodthirsty orks with massive cleavers and bolt pistols and kill them all. Greenskins, you know those guys who can rip humans in half with their bare hands? Cannon fodder to space marines. And for the arrow thing? Not only is that unexplained as to HOW that happened, wasn't it like a daemon world, and weren't they Chaos Cultists? Its not exactly ordinary circumstances.


I can't convice you otherwise with quotes and fluff, so please tell me, what I'm allowed to use? Am I suposed to find a SM, get a group of neutral witness, and proceed to shoot him with several weapons and under diferent conditions, carefully taping and registering everything, and then send the smoking remains of the SM and the results to your home as a proof?

I'm using actual information on Space Marines and what they've done and what they've survived, all your side is doing is spewing aimless speculation and trying to make it sound like all SM are capable of is charging in guns blazing, which is a terrible representation of SM in anything save the actual tabletop, which was explicitly stated by GW as, for gaming purposes, isn't very true to form as to SM capabilities.

Shadowcaller
2008-05-23, 01:22 PM
I'm feeling ignored...

But anyway, why do some think that we even could orgainze the playgrounders to some kind of army?

Lets say some guy rob a bank with a gun, he gets trapped inside the bank and starts shotting people every 10 minute for some reason.
The civilians in the bank outnumber him 20 to 1, so if they all attacked him at the samt time he would go down right?

Sure maybe he will kill some of them but he will still go down and everyone is safe, so why don't attack him?
Well becauase we don't want to risk our lifes no matter how logical it is, we can not organize us that instanly without some kind of training.
Fear of getting killed (even if doing nothing will kill us too) will keep us in check.

If everyone could just rush mindlessly against a target when people die around you without any training why do they even need to train militarily then?

It's completely impossible to make 20,000 into some kind of army even if some of them are in the military.
Lots of people are going to run away as soon as people are beginning to die, if they dare to charge the marine at all.

Innis Cabal
2008-05-23, 01:39 PM
to quote for our side

Welcome, your name has been drawn for The Game. You cannot turn down this invitation as your opponent has already been brought to your planet. The Game is about survival, and the only way to win is to bring about the premature death of your opponent. You are not alone on this as every other person who has posted on the Playground has also received this message.


We know who else is on our side-and we know how to comunicate with them
We know what is going on, and its the one guy or us
We know when the game ends, and how to bring that about
We know why we are doing this, its a game, we are contestents, we dont get a choice to run or turn down the game

Knowing those four things, your whole argument about the sheer terror of battle, of wanting to keep alive, is moot. The only wany to live, is to kill the other guy. You seem to be insuinuating all humans are cowards and with a gun to their head they are going to do what ever they can to stay alive. If thats the case, then again, your argument is void, as stated, we dont have the option to run, just to keep away longer then everyone else. If your point is wrong and it is, it so very is, a large number of us will see this message, know we dont have an option and do what needs done. Faced with certain death the human species has brought about results that can only be deemed miracles. Mothers lift cars up to save their children, men run untill their hearts explode from the strain. This is war, we are conscripted individuals. Your not being ignored, your points just dont matter in the specs of what we've been given

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-23, 01:45 PM
to quote for our side

Welcome, your name has been drawn for The Game. You cannot turn down this invitation as your opponent has already been brought to your planet. The Game is about survival, and the only way to win is to bring about the premature death of your opponent. You are not alone on this as every other person who has posted on the Playground has also received this message.


We know who else is on our side-and we know how to comunicate with them
We know what is going on, and its the one guy or us
We know when the game ends, and how to bring that about
We know why we are doing this, its a game, we are contestents, we dont get a choice to run or turn down the game

Knowing those four things, your whole argument about the sheer terror of battle, of wanting to keep alive, is moot. The only wany to live, is to kill the other guy. You seem to be insuinuating all humans are cowards and with a gun to their head they are going to do what ever they can to stay alive. If thats the case, then again, your argument is void, as stated, we dont have the option to run, just to keep away longer then everyone else. If your point is wrong and it is, it so very is, a large number of us will see this message, know we dont have an option and do what needs done. Faced with certain death the human species has brought about results that can only be deemed miracles. Mothers lift cars up to save their children, men run untill their hearts explode from the strain. This is war, we are conscripted individuals. Your not being ignored, your points just dont matter in the specs of what we've been given

Actually I think he's insinuating that alot of people would rather avoid trying to get into any confrontation with a 7 foot tall superhuman killer, armed with weapons that turn people into swiss cheese and confetti, but with more blood.

Shadowcaller
2008-05-23, 01:51 PM
to quote for our side

Welcome, your name has been drawn for The Game. You cannot turn down this invitation as your opponent has already been brought to your planet. The Game is about survival, and the only way to win is to bring about the premature death of your opponent. You are not alone on this as every other person who has posted on the Playground has also received this message.


We know who else is on our side-and we know how to comunicate with them
We know what is going on, and its the one guy or us
We know when the game ends, and how to bring that about
We know why we are doing this, its a game, we are contestents, we dont get a choice to run or turn down the game

Knowing those four things, your whole argument about the sheer terror of battle, of wanting to keep alive, is moot. The only wany to live, is to kill the other guy. You seem to be insuinuating all humans are cowards and with a gun to their head they are going to do what ever they can to stay alive. If thats the case, then again, your argument is void, as stated, we dont have the option to run, just to keep away longer then everyone else. If your point is wrong and it is, it so very is, a large number of us will see this message, know we dont have an option and do what needs done. Faced with certain death the human species has brought about results that can only be deemed miracles. Mothers lift cars up to save their children, men run untill their hearts explode from the strain. This is war, we are conscripted individuals. Your not being ignored, your points just dont matter in the specs of what we've been given

Okay, you got a point there:smallcool:.
But everyone is not that brave, some of us might not have that extra that make us ignore the hundreds of bleeding bodies, the screams that we never even have been close to before. (but I agree with you, humans are quite capable of doing amazing things that they never ever dreamed of doing before under the right circumstances.)

But we are still going to be a disorganized lot thought.
Since a big group of 20,000+ people are going to be quite impossible to organize since most of us are civilians

Edit: And a woman that can lift a car?
I never hard that. Are you sure that is true?

Zenthar
2008-05-23, 02:15 PM
I'm feeling ignored...

But anyway, why do some think that we even could orgainze the playgrounders to some kind of army?

Lets say some guy rob a bank with a gun, he gets trapped inside the bank and starts shotting people every 10 minute for some reason.
The civilians in the bank outnumber him 20 to 1, so if they all attacked him at the samt time he would go down right?

Sure maybe he will kill some of them but he will still go down and everyone is safe, so why don't attack him?
Well becauase we don't want to risk our lifes no matter how logical it is, we can not organize us that instanly without some kind of training.
Fear of getting killed (even if doing nothing will kill us too) will keep us in check.

If everyone could just rush mindlessly against a target when people die around you without any training why do they even need to train militarily then?

It's completely impossible to make 20,000 into some kind of army even if some of them are in the military.
Lots of people are going to run away as soon as people are beginning to die, if they dare to charge the marine at all.


Why don't the 20 rush the bank robber? Because the bank robber wants to.. rob the bank, not kill the 20 people. They don't want to risk their lives for the banks' money, why would they?

Shadowcaller
2008-05-23, 02:17 PM
Well in the scenario the robber would kill a person every 10 minute for some reason.
But I have already admitted to being (partly) wrong so it do not matter.

GoC
2008-05-23, 02:42 PM
2. The power armor is apart of him, read the Black Carapace, he isnt going to be slamming around in what is essentially his second skin
You can actually be killed by your brain getting slammed around in your skull.


and when we kill him the fact of the matter is, people are comming for his gene seeds, thats an inevitablity you all need to deal with. And when they come, it wont be one more SM, its going to be an SM with alot of friends madder then hell and looking for the culprit.
The SM is from another universe, noone's going to come looking for him.


I didn't recall him getting a CHAINSWORD, in that case anyone who gets close is SCREWED and if you happen to get within 10 feet of him at least, you'd better hope the blood bones and gristle from our poor hapless fellows have started blocking up the motors in his chainsword.
With that many people I'm sure someone packed a titanium bar on themselves. The SMs chainsaw is going to blunt very soon.:smallbiggrin:

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-23, 02:47 PM
You can actually be killed by your brain getting slammed around in your skull.

Which isn't a fair comparison, because you're brain has room to rattle around, an SM in his armor doesn't, its attached to him.


With that many people I'm sure someone packed a titanium bar on themselves. The SMs chainsaw is going to blunt very soon.:smallbiggrin:

Chain Swords (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chainsword#Chain_weapons) are not only made of superior metal, but have monomolecular blades, I.E. it will cut THROUGH that bar of titanium, and through his skull, and his body, etc.

Innis Cabal
2008-05-23, 02:50 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrenaline

that right there can do wonders, yes im sure a woman has lifted a car. Not over her head, not high enough to make an real impact, but she still physicaly lifted a car and got her baby out from under it, saving its life.

Other instances of insane human reaction to the fight or flight mechanism
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9C00E2DB1E31E433A25753C1A96E9C94 6195D6CF
http://youtube.com/watch?v=sHUy8IaW-sE&feature=related

You vastly under-estimate the human spirit.

Second, on the "un-unified mass". Yes we are civilians, yes a fair lot of us dont even know how to shoot a gun, let alone at a living breathing target under fire. We know how to contact each other, the internet isnt going out, the satilities arnt going to go out, and neither are the cell towers. We will communicate because we know who to talk to. And thats one thing the SM -dosn't- have, and probably wont know untill we've all linked up once. MSN, Aim, Skype, all of these things will afford us a way to get ahold of each other in under a minute so long as we have a computer and a stable internet connection. After thats gone we've got a problem, and chances are if its not the first thing he takes out its going to be on the top 10 list of things to get rid of.

Just because we are civi's dosnt mean a "Hey, jerks, you die if you dont listen to the people that know what they are doing" wont work, in fact, thats a good way to get -my- attention, i don't know what it does to you or anyone else, but when i hear do this or die, i do it. Untrained civilians are not something to underestimate, in fact, that is one thing that against any other foe would be our greatest advantage. But this SM has fought heritics no doubt, which are little better then us with -alot- better weapondry. Simple answer, once again you are underestimating your own side, and that right there is the real losing point. You dont have the confidence in your fellow man to win the day, and simply because of that, you are a broken cog in a mish mashed machine that is trying to save you.

SurlySeraph
2008-05-23, 03:00 PM
Edit: And a woman that can lift a car?
I never hard that. Are you sure that is true?

It has happened. I don't have a citation, but I've read about that several times.

On the morale issue: we're nerds. Every single one of us can suppress his or her emotions and work his or her ass off for what he or she believes he or she is supposed to do. If we see this as a challenge, very few of us will run. Besides, once we see how hopeless and pointless running is, we'll all charge in desperation.

BizzaroStormy
2008-05-23, 03:06 PM
-First thing I would need is a makeshift RPG. (PVC Pipe, model rocket engines, 20 oz. bottles, buncha gunpowder.
-A .50 cal rifle (expensive but i could take out a loan to get it)
-Smoke Bombs
-Duct tape
-some gunpowder in 2-liter bottles
-Homemade Napalm

Cant think of anything else at the moment but a BMG through the head would get him out of the picture pretty fast.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-23, 03:07 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrenaline

that right there can do wonders, yes im sure a woman has lifted a car. Not over her head, not high enough to make an real impact, but she still physicaly lifted a car and got her baby out from under it, saving its life.

Other instances of insane human reaction to the fight or flight mechanism
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9C00E2DB1E31E433A25753C1A96E9C94 6195D6CF
http://youtube.com/watch?v=sHUy8IaW-sE&feature=related

You vastly under-estimate the human spirit.

Second, on the "un-unified mass". Yes we are civilians, yes a fair lot of us dont even know how to shoot a gun, let alone at a living breathing target under fire. We know how to contact each other, the internet isnt going out, the satilities arnt going to go out, and neither are the cell towers. We will communicate because we know who to talk to. And thats one thing the SM -dosn't- have, and probably wont know untill we've all linked up once. MSN, Aim, Skype, all of these things will afford us a way to get ahold of each other in under a minute so long as we have a computer and a stable internet connection. After thats gone we've got a problem, and chances are if its not the first thing he takes out its going to be on the top 10 list of things to get rid of.

Just because we are civi's dosnt mean a "Hey, jerks, you die if you dont listen to the people that know what they are doing" wont work, in fact, thats a good way to get -my- attention, i don't know what it does to you or anyone else, but when i hear do this or die, i do it. Untrained civilians are not something to underestimate, in fact, that is one thing that against any other foe would be our greatest advantage. But this SM has fought heritics no doubt, which are little better then us with -alot- better weapondry. Simple answer, once again you are underestimating your own side, and that right there is the real losing point. You dont have the confidence in your fellow man to win the day, and simply because of that, you are a broken cog in a mish mashed machine that is trying to save you.

1. Space Marines can lift trucks WITHOUT adrenaline, WITH adrenaline, they can do things like destroy tanks unarmed (by denting it, punching through its armor, though not fully, then ripping off the hatch and slaughtering the crew inside)
2. After the alotted time we will be dumped in a remote mountain/forest region, possibly another world, and who's to say the Space Marines vox can't somehow tap into our communications.
3. I've read enough 40k books and novels, wherein lone space marines have taken out large forces, alone, sometimes with contemptuous ease, to know that they are hard to kill, and very, very, deadly. Plus, I know people well enough to be sure that while yes, some people will embrace team work and so on, many will not.

Shadowcaller
2008-05-23, 03:08 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrenaline

that right there can do wonders, yes im sure a woman has lifted a car. Not over her head, not high enough to make an real impact, but she still physicaly lifted a car and got her baby out from under it, saving its life.

Other instances of insane human reaction to the fight or flight mechanism
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9C00E2DB1E31E433A25753C1A96E9C94 6195D6CF
http://youtube.com/watch?v=sHUy8IaW-sE&feature=related

You vastly under-estimate the human spirit.

Second, on the "un-unified mass". Yes we are civilians, yes a fair lot of us dont even know how to shoot a gun, let alone at a living breathing target under fire. We know how to contact each other, the internet isnt going out, the satilities arnt going to go out, and neither are the cell towers. We will communicate because we know who to talk to. And thats one thing the SM -dosn't- have, and probably wont know untill we've all linked up once. MSN, Aim, Skype, all of these things will afford us a way to get ahold of each other in under a minute so long as we have a computer and a stable internet connection. After thats gone we've got a problem, and chances are if its not the first thing he takes out its going to be on the top 10 list of things to get rid of.

Just because we are civi's dosnt mean a "Hey, jerks, you die if you dont listen to the people that know what they are doing" wont work, in fact, thats a good way to get -my- attention, i don't know what it does to you or anyone else, but when i hear do this or die, i do it. Untrained civilians are not something to underestimate, in fact, that is one thing that against any other foe would be our greatest advantage. But this SM has fought heritics no doubt, which are little better then us with -alot- better weapondry. Simple answer, once again you are underestimating your own side, and that right there is the real losing point. You dont have the confidence in your fellow man to win the day, and simply because of that, you are a broken cog in a mish mashed machine that is trying to save you.

Wow, I already feel better:smallwink:.

I have already admitted that I'm (partly) wrong but lets not be too optimistic here shall we?
It is a big difference to sit here and discuss this in a thread and stand there in front of the marine with your dead friends laying all around you.

Sure we are going to charge but don't expect that everyone is going to use the "inner human spirit/moral/godness" and just nobely sacrifice themselfs to save all the others.
I don't think anyone can mentally prepare for the slaughter that awaits us in just ten days and become some fearless drones.
Evetually every human breaks (why do you think armies route in a battle?)
Some may got the courage like in your examples but they might also die first.
Then some of use cowards are going to run (to die a bit later of course).
My point is that human may do extraordinary brave things but they might also do very cowardly things like run away from the enemy in the middle of a battle bertaying your friends becuase of fear.

I don't think that we can count on that every playgrounder is extremly brave and fearless. And also this is not some movie when the brave good guys survives everything and the cowards die first.

Innis Cabal
2008-05-23, 03:12 PM
@At above
Yuor right, not everyone here will be able to prepare for the eventually we are all going to die. No this is not a movie where we win because we are the "good" guy. Most of us, if not all of us, have admited there will be loss. In fact, we are all as good as dead really, its a matter of when and how fast its going to be. Route, and get shot in the back, or do the smart thing and plan and live a little longer and possibly make sure the ones around you do to. There is no sense in betraying your fellows when your all doomed, youll just die with everyone around you knowing exactly why they died.

How many people here have been in the military, or have had military training? Out of 20,000 we at least know a small percent have. This is a war situation. Each person in their best role, each person left to do that role to their fullest. Meaning, if you know how to maintain troops thats what you do, if you know how to run commincations, thats what you do. Everyone seems to be under the impression that its an all or nothing rush to the front, its not. Time isnt on our side, its not, even if we out number him, he is better at what we are both doing then we are, he is -born- to be better, raised to be better and lives to be better then what we are both doing. He has all the ammunition he thinks he is going to need, if he has been briefed like we have been. The only way to even remotely win is to go about this tactfully and cautiously.

Rushing and piling on him-bad move, lose situation for us, sorry, thems the breaks
anti-tank weapondry- supposing we can get all that, as getting that sort of thing for civis will alert the military, oh yes it will, will break the rules. Removing weapondry from the military is not high on their joke's list and you and your friends will be punished to the up-most for that infraction.
Glocks- See every link for why that -wont- work
Acids, shattering his armor, etc- They fight demons and aliens with acid, MAGIC, and weapons that make what we have at our disposal look like play-dough, t r y a g a i n
Untested or unrefined weapons- There is a reason we dont have those out in the field, they are not effective, see above
Weapons of theory- Mass drive tech, direct weapons, sonic weapons, Magnetic weapons, etc. They have seen these, and even if we have the clearance to go about making them, that will again, involve people outside of the playground.
Getting others in the playground to by-pass the above mentioned points- Loop holes are fun to exploit, but it dosnt show your ability to win an argument. Try again

Some info on Mass drivers, as they were proposed early on in the discussion
http://www.americanantigravity.com/massdriver.shtml
http://www.amazing1.com/mass-launcher.htm
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6335930423805021995

Shadowcaller
2008-05-23, 03:22 PM
That would be my point, If we just rush him with our massive numbers we are going to loss beacuase of many different reasons. If we gather up every shoot he shots is going to kill or wound more then one person with each shot.
Tactic on the other hand might work but since I don't know anything about that I will leave that disscusion to you guys.

Jack Squat
2008-05-23, 03:48 PM
anti-tank weapondry- supposing we can get all that, as getting that sort of thing for civis will alert the military, oh yes it will, will break the rules. Removing weapondry from the military is not high on their joke's list and you and your friends will be punished to the up-most for that infraction.



And if we alert the military, what's the big deal? I doubt they'd be too interested in capturing us once they run into the Space Marine.

Also, who said it had to be military weapons? A store around here sells Browning M2 (.50 BMG) replicas, some straight on semi-auto, some crank semi-auto, and some full auto. No, I can't afford it, but if the world is at stake, I don't care too much about a felony charge. Not saying I'd go out and steal one now, but if civiliztion was about to collapse, I'd do things I wouldn't even consider now.


Glocks- See every link for why that -wont- work

Ok, glocks won't work...any problems with other pistols? not everything is either in 9mm or .40 cal. heck, there's plenty of rifle caliber handguns out there. Or what about longarms? I've got a 30-06 and some shotguns sitting in my closet right now, all of which are plenty more powerful than a glock, especially if I load up shotgun slugs and "Armor Piercing" rifle rounds. I'm not saying I know these will work, but just because one or two pistol calibers won't work doesn't mean you can act as if all firearms are not effective.

onasuma
2008-05-23, 03:54 PM
Lets be realistic. We could roughly compare a modern day rifle to lasgun or maybe only a laspistol. 40 lasgun shots should be able to take down a marine. We have 20000 people. With so many, we're bound to get that many.
Wait, fluff marines? In which case we all be screwed combat wise. But we could always try logic. This man would be defiling land on holy terra. All we need to do is keep telling him that and hope he gets paranoid and kills himself for redemption.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-23, 04:03 PM
And if we alert the military, what's the big deal? I doubt they'd be too interested in capturing us once they run into the Space Marine.

Also, who said it had to be military weapons? A store around here sells Browning M2 (.50 BMG) replicas, some straight on semi-auto, some crank semi-auto, and some full auto. No, I can't afford it, but if the world is at stake, I don't care too much about a felony charge. Not saying I'd go out and steal one now, but if civiliztion was about to collapse, I'd do things I wouldn't even consider now.

Well we aren't allowed to contact the military by OP, and as for the replicas... they're replicas.


Ok, glocks won't work...any problems with other pistols? not everything is either in 9mm or .40 cal. heck, there's plenty of rifle caliber handguns out there. Or what about longarms? I've got a 30-06 and some shotguns sitting in my closet right now, all of which are plenty more powerful than a glock, especially if I load up shotgun slugs and "Armor Piercing" rifle rounds. I'm not saying I know these will work, but just because one or two pistol calibers won't work doesn't mean you can act as if all firearms are not effective.

In the novel "Nightbringer" a bog standard space marine protects a civilian (that he was supposed to protect) by shielding her with his back armor. He was shot, repeatedly, by a helicopter autocannon, and it didn't get through the armor (though the sheer force of it forced him down onto one knee) and in numerous other novels small arms like assault rifles, pistols, and shotguns have been shown to do nothing. So we could all have ak-47's on full auto and know how to fire them perfectly for all the good it would do us, like I said before the Space Marine would likely get better results chucking our bullets back at us, at least it would hurt as we get wanged over the head with a flying piece of metal, he would barely notice.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-23, 04:07 PM
Lets be realistic. We could roughly compare a modern day rifle to lasgun or maybe only a laspistol. 40 lasgun shots should be able to take down a marine. We have 20000 people. With so many, we're bound to get that many.
Wait, fluff marines? In which case we all be screwed combat wise. But we could always try logic. This man would be defiling land on holy terra. All we need to do is keep telling him that and hope he gets paranoid and kills himself for redemption.

Won't work. Space Marines are too realistic, in fact most don't worship the Emperor like most people do, they merely honor him for what he is (which is to say they still respect him a LOT, and they think he's a god, but they're realistic about it) and really, if he thought we were heretics, he would be filled with righteous fury that we would defile Terra, and would kill us all.

Rutee
2008-05-23, 04:12 PM
Fluff marines are only worth 10 IG..

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-23, 04:16 PM
Fluff marines are only worth 10 IG..

if by "10 IG" You mean the full crew of a Baneblade, I whole heartedly agree, as those things are ****ing badass.

Innis Cabal
2008-05-23, 04:28 PM
We are heritics, as we are not bowing down to the SM who brings the glory of the emperor.

@Rutee thats already been used here, and the point was made that wasnt meant as a clear cut answer, but was in fact a way of saying "ill take 100 marines, or a meteric butt load of other people instead.

Jack Squat
2008-05-23, 04:39 PM
Well we aren't allowed to contact the military by OP, and as for the replicas... they're replicas.



We wouldn't be contacting them though, they'd head after us and find out what's happening themselves. The point wouldn't be to go for help, it'd be to get the weapons. The fact that the military becomes aware of the situation from chasing after us doesn't go against the rules.

Also, they're perfectly functional replicas. They're not originals, and are not made by browning, so they earn the term replica, especially the ones that are not full auto.


In the novel "Nightbringer" a bog standard space marine protects a civilian (that he was supposed to protect) by shielding her with his back armor. He was shot, repeatedly, by a helicopter autocannon, and it didn't get through the armor (though the sheer force of it forced him down onto one knee) and in numerous other novels small arms like assault rifles, pistols, and shotguns have been shown to do nothing. So we could all have ak-47's on full auto and know how to fire them perfectly for all the good it would do us, like I said before the Space Marine would likely get better results chucking our bullets back at us, at least it would hurt as we get wanged over the head with a flying piece of metal, he would barely notice.

What caliber/round was the autocannon?

Most weapons on helicoptors are chambered in 7.62mm, which is basically a .308 cartrige, which I may add, is not as powerful as a 30-06. These also aren't technically autocannons, but just about every author doesn't care too much about the details. The Military chose it because it is smaller and provides roughly same damage to intended targets, so they could hold more rounds.

If it was indeed an autocannon, it was 20mm, and basically a shortened down version of the M-61 vulcan. This is where the type of round comes in handy...there's High Explosive rounds, Armor Piercing (AP), AP incindenary (basically a shaped charge), and Sabot rounds. I have my personal doubts that it was an autocannon though, as they are a complete waste to use on human targets, no organization that I can think of would consider that kind of overkill.

Even so, a 20mm is the smallest sized round that is capable of carrying a useful payload. It doesn't take too much skill to make a cannon, and although there's a slow rate of fire, it has devistating power. Even if a 12 or 20lb lead ball may not penetrate the armor, it will crush/tramatize whatever area was hit because of brute force impact. Not to mention the capability of making shells or sabot rounds to fire out of a cannon, which will have a more devastating effect on the target.

Innis Cabal
2008-05-23, 04:42 PM
if guns shoot .75, what do you think their auto cannons fire?

Rutee
2008-05-23, 04:45 PM
if by "10 IG" You mean the full crew of a Baneblade, I whole heartedly agree, as those things are ****ing badass.

No, I mean Primarchs have directly stated that a 10:1 ratio of Space Marine:Imperial Guard is completely even. That pretty much destroyed any hope the SMurfs ever had of retaining their "Uber Badass that can't be touched" title.

Innis Cabal
2008-05-23, 04:53 PM
And yet again Russ stating the 10:1 ratio was like one of us saying well take one delta over 10 infantry. Same situation, does that make the ratio right? Nope

Jack Squat
2008-05-23, 04:53 PM
if guns shoot .75, what do you think their auto cannons fire?

I was under the assumption that the terms were today's classifications of the weapons, afterall, there's not really another way to understand what's going on.

Their guns fire .75 caliber? by definition, that is just under an autocannon, which is roughly a .78 caliber. So it could be the same...although my personal guess would be they'd go for 40mm (1.6 inches), which for us is a small grenade launcher. That's using our current weaponry...they may have different sizes, but my personal guess is somewhere around there. I haven't read the books or whatever, so if someone knows the actual, please correct me.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-23, 04:57 PM
We wouldn't be contacting them though, they'd head after us and find out what's happening themselves. The point wouldn't be to go for help, it'd be to get the weapons. The fact that the military becomes aware of the situation from chasing after us doesn't go against the rules.

Also, they're perfectly functional replicas. They're not originals, and are not made by browning, so they earn the term replica, especially the ones that are not full auto.

Well, this is either A. a secluded mountain/woodland area, or B. another planet entirely




What caliber/round was the autocannon?

Most weapons on helicoptors are chambered in 7.62mm, which is basically a .308 cartrige, which I may add, is not as powerful as a 30-06. These also aren't technically autocannons, but just about every author doesn't care too much about the details. The Military chose it because it is smaller and provides roughly same damage to intended targets, so they could hold more rounds.

If it was indeed an autocannon, it was 20mm, and basically a shortened down version of the M-61 vulcan. This is where the type of round comes in handy...there's High Explosive rounds, Armor Piercing (AP), AP incindenary (basically a shaped charge), and Sabot rounds. I have my personal doubts that it was an autocannon though, as they are a complete waste to use on human targets, no organization that I can think of would consider that kind of overkill.

Even so, a 20mm is the smallest sized round that is capable of carrying a useful payload. It doesn't take too much skill to make a cannon, and although there's a slow rate of fire, it has devistating power. Even if a 12 or 20lb lead ball may not penetrate the armor, it will crush/tramatize whatever area was hit because of brute force impact. Not to mention the capability of making shells or sabot rounds to fire out of a cannon, which will have a more devastating effect on the target.

Don't remember, but it was sent to pick up an elite team who were supposed to cause chaos in a mob. it was one of those helicopter things with the two big fans that keep it up (it was named in the book, but I can't find the page) and when the autocannon fired it fired at allies and enemies indiscriminately (eliminationg evidence of implication) it ripped most of them apart, and the one survivor had his leg blown off when it was clipped. When it smashed into the SM's armored back, it scratched the paint and put a couple dents in it, but nothing that he couldn't easily walk away from or needed to worry about. The... Ornothopter (I think that was the name) flew off when it started getting shot by the SM's squad mates.


No, I mean Primarchs have directly stated that a 10:1 ratio of Space Marine:Imperial Guard is completely even. That pretty much destroyed any hope the SMurfs ever had of retaining their "Uber Badass that can't be touched" title.

See Innis Cabal's response. It was a metaphor (or w/e that term is) he wasn't literally saying that one SM=10 IG, he was saying "I'll take a bunch of my guys, or a big army of the other guys, because thats how much worse they are"

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-23, 04:59 PM
I was under the assumption that the terms were today's classifications of the weapons, afterall, there's not really another way to understand what's going on.

Their guns fire .75 caliber? by definition, that is just under an autocannon, which is roughly a .78 caliber. So it could be the same...although my personal guess would be they'd go for 40mm (1.6 inches), which for us is a small grenade launcher. That's using our current weaponry...they may have different sizes, but my personal guess is somewhere around there. I haven't read the books or whatever, so if someone knows the actual, please correct me.

No, their average description of an autocannon is pretty much a tanks main gun set on "full auto", although the autocannon I'm talking about was scaled down from that.

Rutee
2008-05-23, 05:03 PM
And yet again Russ stating the 10:1 ratio was like one of us saying well take one delta over 10 infantry. Same situation, does that make the ratio right? Nope

.....Well that's interesting, I don't usually see people contradict near-godlike figures' comments about their own settings, particularly not about something within their area of expertise.


See Innis Cabal's response. It was a metaphor (or w/e that term is) he wasn't literally saying that one SM=10 IG, he was saying "I'll take a bunch of my guys, or a big army of the other guys, because thats how much worse they are"
Metaphor? He said
"If you can't get 100 SMurfs, I'll take 1000 Imperial Guardsmen."

That's not Metaphor.

GoC
2008-05-23, 05:04 PM
Chain Swords (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chainsword#Chain_weapons) are not only made of superior metal, but have monomolecular blades, I.E. it will cut THROUGH that bar of titanium, and through his skull, and his body, etc.
Monomolecular blades blunt very easily.


anti-tank weapondry- supposing we can get all that, as getting that sort of thing for civis will alert the military, oh yes it will, will break the rules. Removing weapondry from the military is not high on their joke's list and you and your friends will be punished to the up-most for that infraction.
No, it won't break the rules.
The idea was to remove the weapons 1 minute or 10 seconds before the deadline.

Innis Cabal
2008-05-23, 05:07 PM
follow the links that have been posted, yes, their guns do in fact fire .75mm rocket propelled rounds that explode, their auto cannons are larger, we arnt using common day weapons, we are speaking of -their- weapons, which have evolved and been so well made they are still in use even long after the golden age, albiet they are starting to break and wear down. The fact remains, this isnt earth tech, this wont be earth tech for....probably never. That large of a round is impractical with our resources as they are. But to the Imperium? Where worlds are lost in accounting snafus? Dont even think one bullet like that would make anyone lose sleep over

Jack Squat
2008-05-23, 05:12 PM
Well, this is either A. a secluded mountain/woodland area, or B. another planet entirely

And? We have 10 days to prepare...who's to say aquiring these can't be part of it?





Don't remember, but it was sent to pick up an elite team who were supposed to cause chaos in a mob. it was one of those helicopter things with the two big fans that keep it up (it was named in the book, but I can't find the page) and when the autocannon fired it fired at allies and enemies indiscriminately (eliminationg evidence of implication) it ripped most of them apart, and the one survivor had his leg blown off when it was clipped. When it smashed into the SM's armored back, it scratched the paint and put a couple dents in it, but nothing that he couldn't easily walk away from or needed to worry about. The... Ornothopter (I think that was the name) flew off when it started getting shot by the SM's squad mates.

First, they're called propellers, not fans. Second, there is no way in hell that a graze shot can rip someone's leg off...it's physically impossible. My personal guess is that since this was included, the rounds were also solid shot (or typical AP), as the author probably isn't aware that there are other types. This does not discredit HE, Sabot, or the Armor Piercing Incindinary rounds.

This example, also shows (to me) that either the author has no concept of impact forces, or the armor has some sort of system in it to reduce blows. If the first is true, than there really has to be a realistic description of a Space Marine brought forward before one can actually be fought.

Assuming the latter is true, solid cannon fire, or any HE (projectile or not) is capable of enough force to cause trama, possibly enough to disable the SM.

I still hold that until further evidence is provided, that Sabot rounds are capable of piercing the armor.


follow the links that have been posted, yes, their guns do in fact fire .75mm rocket propelled rounds that explode, their auto cannons are larger, we arnt using common day weapons, we are speaking of -their- weapons, which have evolved and been so well made they are still in use even long after the golden age, albiet they are starting to break and wear down. The fact remains, this isnt earth tech, this wont be earth tech for....probably never. That large of a round is impractical with our resources as they are. But to the Imperium? Where worlds are lost in accounting snafus? Dont even think one bullet like that would make anyone lose sleep over

I'm not going to dig for these links, call me lazy, but I really don't care enough to learn about Warhammer to check. I'll go off of what's posted.

Now, before you said their rounds are .75 (inch) caliber...now they're .75 mm? That is incredibly small, either that or you don't know enough about weaponry to be assuming that we do not, and never will have the capability of manufacturing these weapons.
Anything that is 3/4 of an inch (or .02, depending on which number you provided that I choose), is incredibly small for an RP round, and as I said before .78 is considered the minimum size of a round that is effective to put anything in (I'm going to assume that these things explode). If you do replace gunpowder with rockets, it doesn't make it a superweapon...the fact is that they won't provide an incredibly greater amount of force than what is currently provided. Also, anything other than long range shots are pretty much useless, as rockets need pretty decent distances to gain their speed.

I know these aren't earth weapons, but being that that's what we have, it's what we can compare it to. So when terms are used, I think of what the terms mean now...the fact that it's future technology should not mean that the terms suddenly take on a different meaning than the accepted one currently.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-23, 05:13 PM
Monomolecular blades blunt very easily.

How do you figure that. I mean sure, maybe if he was trying to chop down a freaking building, but a bar of metal is barely going to slow it down. Its like saying that a really sharp sword would blunt after chopping through a staff. Maybe it would blunt a little, but it hardly matters when the next thing it hits is your soft easily hacked apart flesh. And in 40k, chain weapons (chainswords included) are used to hack apart armor and metal, SM armor not the least of which.

Innis Cabal
2008-05-23, 05:14 PM
You are not to contact any police or military force about The Game. Doing so will result in immediate vaporization of you and your fellow Playgrounders.

thats your rule

Contact
1. the act or state of touching; a touching or meeting, as of two things or people.
2. immediate proximity or association.
3. an acquaintance, colleague, or relative through whom a person can gain access to information, favors, influential people, and the like.
4. Electricity. a junction of electric conductors, usually metal, that controls current flow, often completing or interrupting a circuit.
5. Geology. the interface, generally a planar surface, between strata that differ in lithology or age.
6. Medicine/Medical. a person who has lately been exposed to an infected person.
7. Sociology. a condition in which two or more individuals or groups are placed in communication with each other. Compare categoric contact, primary contact, secondary contact, sympathetic contact.
8. contact lens.
–verb (used with object) 9. to put or bring into contact.
10. to communicate with: We'll contact you by mail or telephone.
–verb (used without object) 11. to enter into or be in contact.
–adjective 12. involving or produced by touching or proximity: contact allergy.


By that definition, stealing a weapon, or even taking it and having the military or police catch wind, is in fact breaking the rule that you made. Taking the weapons 10 seconds, or even 1 minute before hand will alert them. You state we will be wisked away to a location, never saying it isnt on earth. If its on earth, they will find us.

More to the point, logicaly, asking for 20 missles, will get the question "what for" the answer cant be anything less then "We are going to go blast something" the answer is then "what are you blasting" when the answer comes back we cant tell you, or anything even close to that, your missles are denied. If its not on earth thats fine, then the military cant follow and cant get directly involved with the fight, but they are still involed with The Game because now they are going to be looking into just -why- millions of dollars of weapondry were just stolen, and their bound to find out something.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-23, 05:17 PM
First, they're called propellers, not fans. Second, there is no way in hell that a graze shot can rip someone's leg off...it's physically impossible. My personal guess is that since this was included, the rounds were also solid shot (or typical AP), as the author probably isn't aware that there are other types. This does not discredit HE, Sabot, or the Armor Piercing Incindinary rounds.

This example, also shows (to me) that either the author has no concept of impact forces, or the armor has some sort of system in it to reduce blows. If the first is true, than there really has to be a realistic description of a Space Marine brought forward before one can actually be fought.

Assuming the latter is true, solid cannon fire, or any HE (projectile or not) is capable of enough force to cause trama, possibly enough to disable the SM.

I still hold that until further evidence is provided, that Sabot rounds are capable of piercing the armor.

First the thing I'm thinking of uses what are essentially fans, so stop being anal about it. Second, you're telling me that a grazing round from a whats probably a large machinegun which fires explosive rounds won't tear off your leg? That sounds like a weak argument to me. And your personal guess and ultimatums suck. Its far more likely that its the latter, and it makes most of the things SM survive more believable, and really, the kind of blunt force you would need to disable an SM (who can easily fight on through the loss of limbs and major organs, redundant systems notwithstanding) would more than someone could carry, like getting run over by a tank (which still might not work), or as was the case in another novel, falling from low orbit (which knocked the SM in question unconcious, and caused amnesia because of the force of impact, as well as renting a large hole in the ground)

Innis Cabal
2008-05-23, 05:33 PM
another instance where a little research would do the opposing side a good deal of good. The side of us losing and dying horrible have presented enough links, citations, and sources to prove our point, i know im waiting for some of your own. Heck ive even posted some for you.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-23, 05:43 PM
another instance where a little research would do the opposing side a good deal of good. The side of us losing and dying horrible have presented enough links, citations, and sources to prove our point, i know im waiting for some of your own. Heck ive even posted some for you.

I know that links to what a .50 can do and to what a Javelin can do have been posted.

But here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raufoss_Mk_211) is the Mk 211 HEAPI round.
"A so-called "combined effects" cartridge, the Mk 211 Mod 0 High-Explosive-Incendiary-Armor-Piercing (HEIAP) cartridge contains a .30 caliber tungsten penetrator, zirconium powder, and Composition A explosive."

That sounds a lot like a bolter round, sure its smaller but thats about it.

Fired from one of these. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M82_Barrett_rifle) If a bolter round can mess with armor we have no reason to believe that one of those wouldn't as well.

And a Javelin can take out a tank, it should be able to at least damage a SM. 20 or so of them should most assuredly kill it.

Jack Squat
2008-05-23, 05:51 PM
First the thing I'm thinking of uses what are essentially fans, so stop being anal about it. Second, you're telling me that a grazing round from a whats probably a large machinegun which fires explosive rounds won't tear off your leg? That sounds like a weak argument to me. And your personal guess and ultimatums suck. Its far more likely that its the latter, and it makes most of the things SM survive more believable, and really, the kind of blunt force you would need to disable an SM (who can easily fight on through the loss of limbs and major organs, redundant systems notwithstanding) would more than someone could carry, like getting run over by a tank (which still might not work), or as was the case in another novel, falling from low orbit (which knocked the SM in question unconcious, and caused amnesia because of the force of impact, as well as renting a large hole in the ground)

Yes, I am saying a grazing shot, no matter what the round is, will not tear a limb off. There is literally not enough force caused by any object to do that amount of damage on a graze.

Why does my guess of him using solid shot "suck"...is it because it takes away your dream of Warhammer weapons being vastly superior? You mentioned that the rounds explode now...but before I had no way of knowing this.

Our current armoring on Humvees can sustain Explosive rounds similar effects (minus the force absorbtion), so this is what I'll compare the armor to until you decide to give me other information that turns your current armor into some superadvanced technology that physics can't effect. yet shaped charges and Sabots can easily pierce through them...and personally, if I had 10 days I would definetly take the time to make shaped charges for this...they're not that hard to create, and are quite popular amongst isurgents to use against our forces. Also, I may add that I could quite easily carry a couple dozen of them in my backpack 2800 cubic inches. Sabots are harder to make, but if I were able to get access to a machine shop, could be.

If I had to have something that would create enough blunt force trama, I'd probably craft a type of RPG, but if I were to do that, I might as well stick a shaped charge on front and fry him inside of his own suit.

I will not argue anything with Innus Cannibal on "contacting" the military or police...because apparantly even though it's not in the definitions he provided, someone chasing you for taking something is infact contacting them about the event, even though they do not know the motives. I'll accept this, as taking military equipment isn't really neccessary in the first place.

Innis Cabal
2008-05-23, 05:51 PM
you still havent given a fool proof way of obtaining those missles without alerting the military

Arm yourself with knowledge Jack Squat

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolter_%28Warhammer_40%2C000%29#Bolt_Weapons

If you even purused the rest of the argument, you'd know they were explosive.

Jack Squat
2008-05-23, 05:54 PM
you still havent given a fool proof way of obtaining those missles without alerting the military

No one mentioned missles anywhere...who was this directed at?

EDIT: Ah, ok...the mm you added was a mistake, I figured this was the case, but wanted to make sure...although this doesn't explain what "mass-reactive explosive" is, or how in the world these things can defy the laws of physics and shred someone's leg by barely nicking them.

Innis Cabal
2008-05-23, 05:57 PM
FGM-148 Javelin

thats a missle, and has been brought up through out the debate, Mostly by Tippy.

The fact of the matter is simple, you can steal them, you can take them from the military but by any logical stand point thats -involving- the military outside of the playground. Your not going to get them on loan and they will find you before 10 days are up, stealing them last minute isnt fool prood either, your not getting Javelins. People will want to know -why- you need something that costs 80k, they will, and if you dont tell them, your not going to get your paws on them, regardless of who you know and how well you know them.

Moff Chumley
2008-05-23, 05:58 PM
I Invoke Logic. The Space Marine Goes Poof.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-23, 06:00 PM
How well does a marine see through water? How resistant are they to electricity? How well could they take Chlorine Trifluoride?

Innis Cabal
2008-05-23, 06:02 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equipment_of_the_Imperium_%28Warhammer_40%2C000%29 #Power_Armour
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolter_%28Warhammer_40%2C000%29#Bolt_Weapons
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Marines_%28Warhammer_40%2C000%29

There you all are, once again all the info, and if you say "its wiki, we wont use it" thats your fualt, get over the bias and read it or stop arguing against things you dont know. All these links have been posted at least 2 times in this debate if not more

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-23, 06:02 PM
Yes, I am saying a grazing shot, no matter what the round is, will not tear a limb off. There is literally not enough force caused by any object to do that amount of damage on a graze.

Hmm well, it was an explosive round, which grazed his leg, using logic I can reason that after it grazed his leg, it probably hit the ground behind is leg, and exploded. Now, I found the passage in which it was written, and it said his leg was grazed by the explosive rounds, and a couple lines after that, it says his leg had been blown off, so it didn't actually say it grazed his leg, it just said he got grazed, then later said his leg had been blown off.


Why does my guess of him using solid shot "suck"...is it because it takes away your dream of Warhammer weapons being vastly superior? You mentioned that the rounds explode now...but before I had no way of knowing this.

No its because its wrong, and because you failed to read previous arguments where I already used this example, and SAID it was explosive.



Our current armoring on Humvees can sustain Explosive rounds similar effects (minus the force absorbtion), so this is what I'll compare the armor to until you decide to give me other information that turns your current armor into some superadvanced technology that physics can't effect. yet shaped charges and Sabots can easily pierce through them...and personally, if I had 10 days I would definetly take the time to make shaped charges for this...they're not that hard to create, and are quite popular amongst isurgents to use against our forces. Also, I may add that I could quite easily carry a couple dozen of them in my backpack 2800 cubic inches. Sabots are harder to make, but if I were able to get access to a machine shop, could be.

Can humvees survive automatic explosive fire for several minutes without getting anything worse than some scratches and dings?



If I had to have something that would create enough blunt force trama, I'd probably craft a type of RPG, but if I were to do that, I might as well stick a shaped charge on front and fry him inside of his own suit.

Fry him inside his suit? Care to quantify that statement? (I.E. explain what you mean. For future reference, its an airtight suit of armor that maintains a constant environment inside the suit, such that an SM can walk through a desert or a roaring fire in cool breezy comfort.)

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-23, 06:03 PM
you still havent given a fool proof way of obtaining those missles without alerting the military
Some playgrounders are in the military and deployed to Iraq. Some even use them on a regular basis.

As for me specifically, one of my cousin's is a force recon marine. I have visited him on base before and have used his sniper rifle. I have watched people use Javelin's before. He has access to them. If I needed to be holding 1 at noon 10 days from today I could be.

The rules just say that we can't alert our local military, not that we can't tell specific private citizens who may just happen to be in the military. And nothing is technically stopping me from going and alerting all police departments besides my local one, or from going and alerting the UK's military. Or Canada's.

Innis Cabal
2008-05-23, 06:03 PM
Your a civilian, you wont be holding a missle that can take out a tank. Sorry

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-23, 06:04 PM
I Invoke Logic. The Space Marine Goes Poof.

Your logic fails, as SM are logical to the context to which they apply.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-23, 06:04 PM
How well does a marine see through water? How resistant are they to electricity? How well could they take Chlorine Trifluoride?

So, is anybody gonna take a shot at this? Because if not, I can award an autowin to us playgrounders.

Innis Cabal
2008-05-23, 06:04 PM
you've had links provided, read them

Jack Squat
2008-05-23, 06:05 PM
FGM-148 Javelin

thats a missle, and has been broguht up through out the debate,

technically it's a missle launcher...the missle doesn't really have it's own designation as it's not a separate unit. I kinda glazed over it being mentioned though...my bad. Besides, I think I remember you guys mentioning that SMs don't give a heat signature.

However, if you want a foolproof way, make one.

No, it won't have the fancy autolock capabilities (which would be useless anyways), but you could easily put a shaped charge on the front of a rocket...and it's fairly simple to manufacture both.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-23, 06:07 PM
Some playgrounders are in the military and deployed to Iraq. Some even use them on a regular basis.

As for me specifically, one of my cousin's is a force recon marine. I have visited him on base before and have used his sniper rifle. I have watched people use Javelin's before. He has access to them. If I needed to be holding 1 at noon 10 days from today I could be.

The rules just say that we can't alert our local military, not that we can't tell specific private citizens who may just happen to be in the military. And nothing is technically stopping me from going and alerting all police departments besides my local one, or from going and alerting the UK's military. Or Canada's.

I'm pretty sure those kinds of things go against the intent of that rule. This isn't a court, the letter of the law isn't the most important thing.


technically it's a missle launcher...the missle doesn't really have it's own designation as it's not a separate unit. I kinda glazed over it being mentioned though...my bad. Besides, I think I remember you guys mentioning that SMs don't give a heat signature.

However, if you want a foolproof way, make one.

No, it won't have the fancy autolock capabilities (which would be useless anyways), but you could easily put a shaped charge on the front of a rocket...and it's fairly simple to manufacture both.

You also have to be able to hit him, and fire before he can pick you out because of what you're carrying, and fill you full of oh so literal holes.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-23, 06:08 PM
you've had links provided, read them

Sorry, but those links don't tell me anything. I still don't know if a space marine sees through water, how well they take electricty, or how well they take what is likely the most powerful "acid" in existance, which has been appropriately nicknamed "Nightmare Fuel".

Innis Cabal
2008-05-23, 06:13 PM
@Jack Squat-splitting hairs wont win the argument, if you dont have a missle, as thats what will probably be comming with the launcher, just the launcher wont help you.

@Azerian Kelimon they are completly air tight, they can see underwater, they can also see in infrared if the need requires. The use weapons that channel electricty, chances are their armor can take the hit, if you looked at weapons you'd know that. As for acid, they fight biological nightmares that have acids, among other things, that we would only have nightmares about, they can probably stand up to what we have, if not, tell us how your going to get your hands on that within the confines of the rules please, links to what your citing would be nice to

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-23, 06:16 PM
Sorry, but those links don't tell me anything. I still don't know if a space marine sees through water, how well they take electricty, or how well they take what is likely the most powerful "acid" in existance, which has been appropriately nicknamed "Nightmare Fuel".

1. They have various other ways of seeing, such as infrared, nightvision and so on, and is just as capable of seeing through water as anyone else without them (more so, as his eyes are better than normal peoples eyes, even without his helmet on his eyes have that second eyelid thing.
2. Previously I mentioned an incident where a Chaos Sorcerer tried to use lightning to strike down a squad of marines coming at him. When one was hit, he was knocked off his feet. He got back up, they all had a chuckle, and they proceeded to disembowel the heretic. Their armor is designed to survive all manner of inhospitable environments, this no doubt includes highly electrically charged environments.
3. Depending on chapter, their blood and/or spit can contain acid corrosive enough to eat through steel. I'll look for an example of them fighting someone who uses acid, like the Nids, though that will no doubt be a bad comparison, as Nid acid can eat through spaceship hulls.

Deadmeat.GW
2008-05-23, 06:17 PM
Don't forget we were talking in this specific case about a 100 marines or a thousand imperial guard led by a military genius while the guard at the time were still rather ...nebulously equiped...

Land Raiders were used by Imperial Guard, hand guns went from muskets to highly advanced archeo tech guns...

And we are talking what he considered Imperial Guard, the kind of troops we now would consider Storm Troopers or similar elite Imperial Guardsmen.
Both Leman Russ and Roboute were of the idea that if they were going to arm Imperial Guardsmen they ought to gear them up so that they would at least be able to keep somewhat up with Space Marines.
Especially Roboute, his idea of a guardsman would be hotshot lasguns, carapace armour, full enviro protection and frag/krak grenades as standard.
Almost as well protected as Marines (the material for carapace armour at the time was the same as for power armour) with guns which were pretty good in the hands of people which he considered just a cut below of what he wanted for his Space Marines.
The kinda guys that try out for SAS or the like and flunk out half-way through without dying or cripling themselves.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-23, 06:18 PM
Can they see if I hit them with high pressure water from a waterhose?

Innis Cabal
2008-05-23, 06:19 PM
You wont have time to hit him with a water hose, and the pressure of our water hoses wont do anything to him to begin with, he'll laugh at you and shoot you, you wont be laughing long after that

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-23, 06:20 PM
Can they see if I hit them with high pressure water from a waterhose?

Yes, and he'll proceed to eviscerate you afterwards, and use your hose to clean his chainsword, so it doesn't get clogged and he can hack apart that many more of your compatriots.

Oslecamo
2008-05-23, 06:21 PM
Want links and quotes? I already provided several, but here come some more

Smurf gets owned by regular artillery shell:
http://uk.games-workshop.com/spacemarines/initiation/3/
It's also refered on the wiki that even power armor has weak points, and how a captain went down after hundreds of shots of low caliber weapons, one of them managing to slip trough the plates.

And then there's the infamous book where a grey knight, who are suposed to be superior to the SM, gets killed by an arrow.

And since we're 20.000, I'm pretty sure hiting several hundred shots won't be that hard.

Bolters, on the other hand, worck on 30 bullet clips.

I don't know why I bother however. The pro SM side is gonna come screaming how every piece of fluff is actually a metaphor to how SM are invencible gods of war. If they win it's because they're so awesome and not because of the IG shooting at their back or dumb luck, if they die it's either a figure of speech or a pure coincidence, and if their boss says 10 guardsmen will do the same job of a SM he clearly meant to say more than 20000 guardsmen.

Jack Squat
2008-05-23, 06:26 PM
Hmm well, it was an explosive round, which grazed his leg, using logic I can reason that after it grazed his leg, it probably hit the ground behind is leg, and exploded. Now, I found the passage in which it was written, and it said his leg was grazed by the explosive rounds, and a couple lines after that, it says his leg had been blown off, so it didn't actually say it grazed his leg, it just said he got grazed, then later said his leg had been blown off.

This makes more sense, thanks for clarifying.




No its because its wrong, and because you failed to read previous arguments where I already used this example, and SAID it was explosive.

I believe I also mentioned before that I didn't care enough to read back through pages of previous posts...besides, how much extra effort would it have been to clarify again that they were explosive when I asked for the round fired by the autocannon.





Can humvees survive automatic explosive fire for several minutes without getting anything worse than some scratches and dings?

They are designed to protect the crew inside from explosives, and many have been hit by them without the armor being compromised...No one's tried to constantly hit them with explosives for minutes on end, but I can see it being survivable. This armor may be somewhat better, but it's in the range of comparable.




Fry him inside his suit? Care to quantify that statement? (I.E. explain what you mean. For future reference, its an airtight suit of armor that maintains a constant environment inside the suit, such that an SM can walk through a desert or a roaring fire in cool breezy comfort.)

A shaped charge works by melting through it's target (normally fairly heavy armor, also works through concrete and some other objects), and projecting motlen material and extreme heat into the area behind it. This happens near instantly, so the climate control inside the suit would be useless. (ok, actually the climate control would be useless because the armor is breached...but the effect is the same).

To explain a sabot round, it basically just provides an extreme amount of force to a small area, and the speed is enough that it pulls shrapnel into the confined area and scatters it around, all the while creating a vacuum. The 20mm one I mentioned earlier applies roughly the same amount of force as a train engine (the vehicle that pulls trains, not the actual motor) being applied to a one inch area. The larger they are, and the more power put behind them, the faster they go and more damage they do.



@Jack Squat-splitting hairs wont win the argument, if you dont have a missle, as thats what will probably be comming with the launcher, just the launcher wont help you.

Mentioning that it was the unit was a moot point, I had already said I missed seeing it mentioned.


As to me firing it and hitting him before being picked out...i wouldn't, although if we're assuming mountanous, forestry terrain, hiding would be fairly easy until the shot was fired. I just provided an example of something that could be done. I'd personally plant shaped charges much like the Viet kong and the current insurgents are planting their IEDs, and wait for him to come in range of one, then set it off remotely (via a torn apart $20 remote control car from Wal-Mart).

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-23, 06:26 PM
Hell yes, I've found a key to triumph.
We bring ten water hoses and hide behind thick trees. We hit him. He's blind. We pepper him with explosives or force him to inhale the worst venom we can get, and we stay back. Problem solved.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-23, 06:28 PM
Want links and quotes? I already provided several, but here come some more

Smurf gets owned by regular artillery shell:
http://uk.games-workshop.com/spacemarines/initiation/3/
It's also refered on the wiki that even power armor has weak points, and how a captain went down after hundreds of shots of low caliber weapons, one of them managing to slip trough the plates.


He got hit by a mortar shell (taking the full brunt of it) and its not stated what they mean by mortar. it could be a regular mortar sure, or it could be like an earthshaker round. Its hard to quantify.


And then there's the infamous book where a grey knight, who are suposed to be superior to the SM, gets killed by an arrow.

On a Daemon world, a world that by its very nature DEFIES PHYSICS, and not only that, but they were CHAOS CULTISTS who lived on the daemon world (which pretty much assures they aren't regular humans, and it probably wasn't a "regular" arrow)


And since we're 20.000, I'm pretty sure hiting several hundred shots won't be that hard.

Bolters, on the other hand, worck on 30 bullet clips.

If you can find and hit his weak spots, and enough people hit it, sure you have a point. As it stands, we have 20'000 people, many of which will have never even been near a gun before, let alone USED one. and He's not just going to be standing still while you shoot at him. And how many clips does he have?


I don't know why I bother however. The pro SM side is gonna come screaming how every piece of fluff is actually a metaphor to how SM are invencible gods of war. If they win it's because they're so awesome and not because of the IG shooting at their back or dumb luck, if they die it's either a figure of speech or a pure coincidence, and if their boss says 10 guardsmen will do the same job of a SM he clearly meant to say more than 20000 guardsmen.

I don't know why you bother too, but not because of that, because apparently you can't disagree without being a jackass about it. Were being realistic, and using logical thinking, something you appear to sorely lack.

Innis Cabal
2008-05-23, 06:28 PM
all of us pro SM have yet to come "screaming" at you for anything. We've explained why things have played out as they have. I think its been mentioned the arrow was shot by a chaos touched entity. We've noted that a Guard has been struck by an arrow, and killed, but they never go into detail how it happend or where it hit.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-23, 06:30 PM
Hell yes, I've found a key to triumph.
We bring ten water hoses and hide behind thick trees. We hit him. He's blind. We pepper him with explosives or force him to inhale the worst venom we can get, and we stay back. Problem solved.

So I'm guessing you ignored the fact that we said he COULD see through it, and not only that, kill you with contemptuous ease if you tried.

Innis Cabal
2008-05-23, 06:34 PM
I award this discussion's victory to Lord Asmodeus

Deadmeat.GW
2008-05-23, 06:37 PM
We can win if we keep it together, keep a cool head and will completely ignore the resulting carnage of going up against a Marine.

The biggest problem with a marine is that to kill one you need to hit the weak points, we are not likely given the premises of the situation to get this off as easily as some people are claiming.

However we can with the modern equivalent of Greek Fire, explosives and overcharged bullets make it really difficult for the marine to keep going.
Our main problem is whether we will be able to spot the marine fast enough to bring those weapons into play.

If he manages to catch us in small groups and given that we have not actually sofar thought about sorting out some form of comms like walky-talky's or so we would get taken down piece-meal.

You want to obscure his vision, make sure that taking his helmet off is either his only option or not possible at all so as to provide the people with somewhat heftier weapons with a chance ( a mere chance but hey I take what I can get) to take him down.

Overcharged bullets for instance might be a better plan, we are unlikely to get much chances at shooting at him before he blows us away so hitting him hard when we do hit is going to be important.

The javelins if we can get our hands on them would be great, if we can get a square on hit with one or two we ill either kill or put him out of action.
The people carrying them however will need to be guarded and protected at all costs or we will loose them fast.

And if we do not get him with square on hit on the first one or two shots we are going to be in trouble.
A glancing hit by an anti-tank weapon is exactly what their armour is designed to make them survive.

As for acid...does this acid, this nightmare stuff eat through steel plating in seconds, minutes, at all?
If it does not affect steel plating we are better off not using it for a main weapon but as a back-up for if we get his helmet off or to distract him.

All in all we are going to suffer horrendous casualties unless we get really lucky.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-23, 06:40 PM
So I'm guessing you ignored the fact that we said he COULD see through it, and not only that, kill you with contemptuous ease if you tried.

If he can see through dozens/hundreds of litres aimed at his face. And then hit me. A small part of me, on the side of a huge tree. While he is attacked with dozens of explosives. And other hoses burst the water too.

And then, I could also find a way to use all that water to conduct electricity, which should overload his resistance.

And then, some chemist will enlighten you on how dangerous the poison we're going to deploy besides him is.

And then we'll riddle him with bullets.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-23, 06:44 PM
If he can see through dozens/hundreds of litres aimed at his face. And then hit me. A small part of me, on the side of a huge tree. While he is attacked with dozens of explosives. And other hoses burst the water too.

And then, I could also find a way to use all that water to conduct electricity, which should overload his resistance.

And then, some chemist will enlighten you on how dangerous the poison we're going to deploy besides him is.

And then we'll riddle him with bullets.

1. We've already covered that yes, yes he can
2. He probably can, hell he only has to hit a bit of you and you'll be dead
3. If those explosives can't do any real damage he'll just work around it
4. Again, he can
5. Already said that he is pretty much resistant to electicity, you're more likely to hurt yourself then him with this
6. Which will bounce off, doing nothing, as he proceeds to shoot you with his bolter which, when it hits people, blows whatever they hit to bloody shreds.

Deadmeat.GW
2008-05-23, 06:46 PM
Hum, slight issue,...how are you going to get those hoses to work?

Carry a pumping unit and several thousands of gallons of water?

It has to be man-portable in a fashion, please tell me you can carry this stuff and then present yourself to your home countries Olympic committee for weight lifting :). They could always use a few guaranteed gold medalists ;).

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-23, 06:47 PM
Hum, slight issue,...how are you going to get those hoses to work?

Carry a pumping unit and several thousands of gallons of water?

It has to be man-portable in a fashion, please tell me you can carry this stuff and then present yourself to your home countries Olympic committee for weight lifting :). They could always use a few guaranteed gold medalists ;).

If dragging it around counts as man portable then yes, probably.

Deadmeat.GW
2008-05-23, 06:49 PM
Oh, not that it could potentially work if he was caught by surprise but firstly we are not going to have a powerful enough pump to do this and enough water.

Secondly, the electricity thing, he would need to open up his suit for it do much.
Kind like a car, if you hit a car with lightning the results tend to be that people inside are ok and the car itself is pretty much o too in many cases.
A military suit from a place where electro magnetic weapons are a very real danger will be somewhat better then a car at protecting the Marine.

Deadmeat.GW
2008-05-23, 06:50 PM
So...you are able to lift a small heavy duty pumping unit the firefighters use and a couple of thousand gallons of water of the floor?

Man portable, not man draggable :).

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-23, 06:50 PM
Oh, not that it could potentially work if he was caught by surprise but firstly we are not going to have a powerful enough pump to do this and enough water.

Secondly, the electricity thing, he would need to open up his suit for it do much.
Kind like a car, if you hit a car with lightning the results tend to be that people inside are ok and the car itself is pretty much o too in many cases.
A military suit from a place where electro magnetic weapons are a very real danger will be somewhat better then a car at protecting the Marine.

Hell, its probably more likely it'll give his suit more energy than do any real damage.