PDA

View Full Version : spartan II versus a space marine



Pages : [1] 2

Jayngfet
2008-05-25, 02:20 AM
What with all these vs space marine threads going on I'm wondering who would win between 40k's space marines and halo's spartan II's

Both have ceramic's implanted onto their bones, specialy enhanced muscle and organ structures and lots of mental training.

Both wear armor that can take heavy fire and still be effective, as well as gives them increased strength and speed.

Both went through hell training that could kill a normal man, and often them.

Both fight a war against aliens who would stop at nothing to wipe out the human race.

Assume that this is Spartan 117(master chief) in his full and best armor against an average space marine, both have access to any two weapons of their choice, but with no additional ammo beyond one refill, they may use any weapons fashoned from the area's natural resource

The battlefield is a thick forest high on a mountain, with no harmful wildlife or civilization whatsoever.

Combatants are unable to contact outside help of any kind and no one can stumble across them, they may use AI's and sentient objects that hey can carry at the cost of one weapon, Cortana does not count as she functions as a part of master chief's armor.

They are placed fifty miles apart at the edge of the allowed area.

They have no knowledge about each other.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-25, 03:01 AM
Master Chief gets a rocket launcher (Halo 2 version) and one of the following; energy sword, Gravity Hammer, or Spartan Laser. Unless you want to give him a tac nuke.

And he wins. His armor is pretty much as good as a SM's, his situational awareness is better, his enhancements are at least as good, and he has Cortana.

konfeta
2008-05-25, 04:29 AM
Naw. Spartans are proto-SM. Everything the Master Chief accomplished about is because of Master Chief's Plot Armor. Your standard Spartan does not enjoy his repertoire of accomplishments as a proof of his ability.

SM wins this hands down. It's just the same thing as a Spartan except more advanced in every way.

GoC
2008-05-25, 10:54 AM
SM wins this hands down. It's just the same thing as a Spartan except more advanced in every way.

Prove it...

Djinn_in_Tonic
2008-05-25, 10:57 AM
Naw. Spartans are proto-SM. Everything the Master Chief accomplished about is because of Master Chief's Plot Armor. Your standard Spartan does not enjoy his repertoire of accomplishments as a proof of his ability.

SM wins this hands down. It's just the same thing as a Spartan except more advanced in every way.

Nope. Bear in mind that the Spartan in question is Spartan 117, better known as Master Chief. So that plot armor? Yep. Our Spartan has it.

Bring it, Space Marine.

warty goblin
2008-05-25, 10:58 AM
I have distinct memories of getting killed repeatedly by dudes with shotguns in various Halo games, and shotguns, particularly when shooting buckshot, are not known for their armor piercing abilities...

Also, didn't we do this thread about three months ago?

ZeroNumerous
2008-05-25, 11:04 AM
And he wins. His armor is pretty much as good as a SM's, his situational awareness is better, his enhancements are at least as good, and he has Cortana.

And yet one rocket launcher to the face and he dies instantly. Conversely, a Space Marine's primary foes carry miniature rocket launchers as their basic sidearm. No, his armor is not as good as a Space Marine's. Infact, his armor kinda sucks. The only reason he lives through anything is due to the reverse-engineered Covenant shield that covers his body.

Scenario: Master Chief John-117 is walking across the endless plain of mountainous forest when he happens upon a human in power armor. Since his enemies have never been humans, he cries out. The Space Marine, knowing that anything that isn't an Imperial Citizen is either a heretic, a xeno, or a mutant, blasts him. Master Chief dies, and we can all go back to the lives we had before 40k VS EVERYTHING started.

Innis Cabal
2008-05-25, 11:06 AM
So what weapons do the SM have? Are you going to peigon hole him into the one bolter, one chain sword affair while giving master chief hte best weapons in the game?

If not, then a power sword will make short work of a Spartan, as will lightning claws, multi-melta's, chain fists or power fists etc etc. The SM has more weapons, a wider range of them, and fights things that make the flood look like kids. It would be a good fight, but victory would depend soley on how well supplied and armed the SM was

Metal Head
2008-05-25, 12:06 PM
Scenario: Master Chief John-117 is walking across the endless plain of mountainous forest when he happens upon a human in power armor. Since his enemies have never been humans, he cries out. The Space Marine, knowing that anything that isn't an Imperial Citizen is either a heretic, a xeno, or a mutant, blasts him. Master Chief dies, and we can all go back to the lives we had before 40k VS EVERYTHING started.

Too true. I imagine this would be how they meet:

Master Chief: Hey, what are you doing here? I've been wandering around these woods for hours.
Space Marine: DIE HERETIC!!!!!!!

*headshot*

SM wins.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-25, 12:25 PM
SPESS MEHREEN.

No, seriously.

Up close - size, speed, strength give the SM an edge.

Far off? Bam, lascannoned.

Saithis Bladewing
2008-05-25, 12:36 PM
Assuming John knows about his opponent in advance, or gets an energy sword, I give it to the Spartan. His armour is lighter and much more delicate, but he's also MUCH faster and I'd be surprised if his initiative weren't significantly higher than the SM's in a fight. Also, John has plot armour.

John's strength shouldn't be underestimated (Spartans can flip tanks after all), but I still think that the marine has an edge in durability, experience, strength and firepower. That said, I think Spartans have an advantage in speed and reaction time. Also, one other advantage Spartans have over the Space Marines: Spartans are used to fighting odds far more overwhelming than the SM. The UNSC is being systematically exterminated, and with only a couple score of Spartans able to operate in tiny teams against vast alien hordes who are technologically and numerically superior and, in the case of Hunters and Elites, physically equal or superior. And they still win. Space Marines do face some pretty nasty stuff, but as a rule, Space Marines are at the top of the pecking order in terms of equipment and raw physical capabilities. Plus they tend to have all kinds of orbital and imperial guard support (tend to, not always). While there will be times when SM have faced down odds like the Spartans have, it will be an exceptional case for them, whereas for the Spartans it'd be the rule.

Now, I think a "normal" Spartan against a normal Space Marine would be a far more interesting (and SM biased) fight, due to the removal of John's almighty Luck ability.

Also, 40k vs. everything is getting irritating.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-25, 12:41 PM
John's strength shouldn't be underestimated (Spartans can flip tanks after all), but I still think that the marine has an edge in durability, experience, strength and firepower. That said, I think Spartans have an advantage in speed and reaction time. Also, one other advantage Spartans have over the Space Marines: Spartans are used to fighting odds far more overwhelming than the SM. The UNSC is being systematically exterminated, and with only a couple score of Spartans able to operate in tiny teams against vast alien hordes who are technologically and numerically superior and, in the case of Hunters and Elites, physically equal or superior. And they still win. Space Marines do face some pretty nasty stuff, but as a rule, Space Marines are at the top of the pecking order in terms of equipment and raw physical capabilities. Plus they tend to have all kinds of orbital and imperial guard support (tend to, not always). While there will be times when SM have faced down odds like the Spartans have, it will be an exceptional case for them, whereas for the Spartans it'd be the rule.


The UNSC is being systematically exterminated, and with only a couple score of Spartans able to operate in tiny teams against vast alien hordes who are technologically and numerically superior and, in the case of Hunters and Elites, physically equal or superior. And they still win.


with only a couple score of Spartans able to operate in tiny teams against vast alien hordes

May I remind you that that is basically the combat function of the SMurfs?

Saithis Bladewing
2008-05-25, 12:43 PM
May I remind you that that is basically the combat function of the SMurfs?

I am duly reminded, not that I need to be. May I remind you of what I pointed out?


While there will be times when SM have faced down odds like the Spartans have, it will be an exceptional case for them, whereas for the Spartans it'd be the rule.

That is the main point of my post, and why I gave some evidence. You treat me like I know nothing about 40k.

Solo
2008-05-25, 12:50 PM
While there will be times when SM have faced down odds like the Spartans have, it will be an exceptional case for them, whereas for the Spartans it'd be the rule.
Because Space Marines so rarely face off against genocidal hoards of aliens that have the ability to destroy entire planets and cleanse entire star systems of all life.

Saithis Bladewing
2008-05-25, 12:52 PM
Because Space Marines so rarely face off against genocidal hoards of aliens that have the ability to destroy entire planets and cleanse entire star systems of all life.

*Sigh.* Why do I even bother...

Forget it. I'll stop trying to make my point or dare to defend the Spartans. 40k wins, always wins, yay, fap away!

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-25, 12:54 PM
I'd give it to John, mostly because of the Beehive barrier. He hides in it with a spartan laser, and when the SMurf tries to enter to kill him mano a mano, he exits out and blows him to bits.

EvilDMMk3
2008-05-25, 12:58 PM
:sigh:

Marine wins. Fluff marines can fight armies. Lascannon to head, whatever, mostly going with the flow.

*Aims pistol at head of the Vs Space Marine meme.*

*Pulls trigger.*

Now stay dead.

PLEASE.

Innis Cabal
2008-05-25, 12:59 PM
Getting angry because Spartans are SM-lite's is probably not the most advised method of getting your point across.

SM's weapons have better range, they are -just- as fast as a Spartan, their running speed being averaged at around 60 kmh. They fight threats like the Convenant, only 7 or 8 other forces meaner and stronger. Necrons, Tyranids, Orks, Chaos -demons-, all of them meaner, better armed, and far more willing to wipe humanity out then the Prophets.

Its a no win for the Spartan, plot armor or no. He is fighting a larger, more battled hardened foe who's hell bent on his ultimate and total destruction. Simple answer....Victory as ususal to the Emperor

Rutee
2008-05-25, 01:04 PM
So wait;

The Imperium fights 7 or 8 different forces, this is true.

When did this equate to every marine having experience against all of them? It hasn't even been demonstrated, in any sense, who has better power armor in any category, or why. As usual, it's taken as axiomatic that the Marine has better armor.

Solo
2008-05-25, 01:07 PM
*Sigh.* Why do I even bother...

Forget it. I'll stop trying to make my point or dare to defend the Spartans. 40k wins, always wins, yay, fap away!

I'm sorry. I like the concept of Master Chief as much as the next guy, but a SMurf has centuries of combat experience.

Assuming their biology and armor to be equal, experience will be the defining factor in determining victory.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-25, 01:07 PM
Also, since when can SMurf weapons pierce impenetrable barriers?

Mr._Blinky
2008-05-25, 01:10 PM
Unless I'm gravely mistaken, the point that Saithis is trying to make is that yes, the SMurfs do face off against vast hordes of xenos on a regular basis. But on the other hand, they usually have at least a decent number of troops there themselves, as well as backup, allowing combined arms with things such as orbital lance strikes and titans. Battles of one squad of marines versus thousands of enemies do happen, but they're rare, and while the marines will always kick insane amounts of ass, they will eventually be overrun.

On the other hand, it's pretty much the only way that the Spartans ever fight. In the opening of the first novel, Fall of Reach, a single squad of five Spartans manages to wipe out a full force of 1000 grunts in about a minute, and then survive and destroy the Banshee counterattack. Okay, yeah, they're grunts, and they did it by mining the ridge, but they were still outnumbered 200:1. Until Reach, the Spartan IIs were referenced as never having lost a ground engagement. Hell, Master Chief pretty much singlehandedly wipes out an entire enemy fleet by himself in the first game, since all of the marines were dead before anything really big started happening.

Marines have the edge in tech, strength, toughness, and experience, but I'd say that the Spartans have it in speed and ingenuity. In a straight up fight, MC gets turned into swiss cheese by the bolter, but MC is smart enough not to go straight in, especially since Cortana is apparently helping him. Overall, I think it's an even match, where if MC can take out the SMurf before he can react then it goes to Chief, but if the marine's got any fight left at all then MC is screwed.

Now, that's against a standard marine. In a battle against a hero with equal plot armor and Rule of Cool pushed to ridiculous extremes of badassitude, MC is boned. For instance, Marneus Calgar, in an MC vs. MC fight.

Though, on the other hand, Papa SMurf never seems to wear a helmet, and MC being smarter than most of the stuff in 40K I'd give him an even chance of going for the .50 cal headshot on Calgar's half-meter wide cranium...

Solo
2008-05-25, 01:11 PM
But on the other hand, they usually have at least a decent number of troops there themselves, as well as backup, allowing combined arms with things such as orbital lance strikes and titans. Battles of one squad of marines versus thousands of enemies do happen, but they're rare, and while the marines will always kick insane amounts of ass, they will eventually be overrun.

Depends. A lot of Space Marines fight in small numbers. I believe the Raven Guard are an example of this?


MC gets turned into swiss cheese by the bolter, but MC is smart enough not to go straight in, especially since Cortana is apparently helping him.
I would like to point out that Space Marines didn't ge to where they are because of stupidity and lack of tactics.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-25, 01:13 PM
So wait;

The Imperium fights 7 or 8 different forces, this is true.

When did this equate to every marine having experience against all of them?

They live a long time. But, since it's really really popular to bash both the neckbearditude of GW, and to bash the people who argue in favour of their stuff, I'll say that of course the Master Chief wins, because he is a pretty cool guy, kills aleins and doesn't afraid of anything, and because WH40K in general is a power- and ego-trip, and every character in it is a Mary Sue.

Innis Cabal
2008-05-25, 01:14 PM
Grunts are forced to fight, they do often run. Second, no SM's dont fight against all foes, all the time, everywhere. That is very true. But the tech level of 40K is higher, as is the level of threat that -every- single entity has to face. No they dont face them every second but the Covenant are a small xeno threat to the expansive Imperium.

Rutee
2008-05-25, 01:15 PM
They live a long time.
And this establishes experience against every enemy faction because...?


But, since it's really really popular to bash both the neckbearditude of GW, and to bash the people who argue in favour of their stuff, I'll say that of course the Master Chief wins, because he is a pretty cool guy, kills aleins and doesn't afraid of anything, and because WH40K in general is a power- and ego-trip, and every character in it is a Mary Sue.

Yeah. Real popular. That's why they're in the majority almost every time..

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-25, 01:19 PM
And this establishes experience against every enemy faction because...?

Because, being the elite of the elite, the SM are called in to fight the Imperiums deadliest foes, and because they live so long (I don't think SM die naturally, but they only live a few hundred years due to violent death) they have a long time to go up against many of mankinds deadliest enemies. And since SM are recruited from young boys (usually like early teens, a bit earlier a bit later, around that time) they spend most of their lives killing things.

Rutee
2008-05-25, 01:23 PM
Yeah, that's why it's /possible/, and why I didn't outright reject the claim.

Is it probable? Is there printed canon that does in fact establish that the average Marine will indeed have fought many or most of the enormous threats? Given that casualties are sustained, longevity is not a guarantee of an eternally broad spectrum of encounters.

Jayngfet
2008-05-25, 01:23 PM
Let me point four things out

1.At age twelve Jhon had
to spar with mecha because he kept acedently killing trained combatants, this goes for every spartan.

2. Spartans, can mass kill without help, often in the thousands.

3. Spartans are tested on every level, even luck.

4. A huge lumbering dude in foregn armor twice size armed in alien armor is probably a threat.

This does not mean either side wins automaticly, as much of this applies to SM's too.

Solo
2008-05-25, 01:25 PM
4. A huge lumbering dude in foregn armor twice size armed in alien armor is probably a threat.
Aren't Smurfs and SPARTAN's both larger than normal humans by an amount?

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-25, 01:26 PM
Aren't Smurfs and SPARTAN's both larger than normal humans by an amount?

Space Marines are, on average, about 3 meters tall, and I know Spartans are at least a head taller than most people.

Innis Cabal
2008-05-25, 01:27 PM
Both are. But people are forgetting the tech level's involved here even -if- we ignore armor. The SM has a much wider range to pick from, and just giving him access to one or two items would not really be a fair fight. A Power fist would make short work of a Spartan, simple as that

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-25, 01:34 PM
Both are. But people are forgetting the tech level's involved here even -if- we ignore armor. The SM has a much wider range to pick from, and just giving him access to one or two items would not really be a fair fight. A Power fist would make short work of a Spartan, simple as that

Beehive barrier. And when the SMurf enters, MC exits, loads up his spartan laser, and the SMurf gets torched.

Selrahc
2008-05-25, 01:34 PM
I'd give Space Marines a serious edge in close combat, without weapons. Bigger, heavier, stronger, longer reach, more close combat focussed fighting style. I'd say Space Marines are slightly tougher too.

With (good) close combat weapons it becomes a coin flip, based on luck. Because both of them are very skilled, and could kill the other with a single blow. The Space Marine has a longer reach, and probably more close combat experience, but the Spartan is slightly faster, both in movement and reflexes. (Space Marines are faster than normal humans, Spartans are a lot faster than regular humans.)

At range with say... SPNKR vs. Krak missile, or Spartan Laser versus Lascannon and it would be a real coin flip. Whoever gets a good shot off first wins.(Space Marine Bolt guns are not automatic fire anti tank missile launchers, no matter how many times people say they are, when Space Marines get hit by anti tank missiles they die). The Spartans are generally stealthier though, and carry more detection equipment as standard. That probably gives them the edge.

With a more normal armament? Say... Battle Rifle versus Bolt Gun I'd give the Space Marine the edge. Not against Master Chief, cause that dude has some titanium plot armour, but against a regular Spartan. Most regular Spartans heavily rely on their squad backup.

Squad vs. Squad it would be a little tougher. Both Spartans and marines have well nigh supernatural teamwork skills and I honestly have no idea who would win, but it would be a hell of a fight!

I do think Space Marines have a better upgrade package on physical enhancements than Spartans. Ignoring what actually gets done to them, because thats kind of irrelevant, I have read Space Marines consistently outperform Spartans in strength and toughness, while Spartans have better reflexes.

For general effectiveness as supersoldiers, Space Marines also win the prize in mental upgrades. The failsafes built into the minds of Marines, and the total indoctrination make them more effective as soldiers. That doesn't really come into the versus though. Neither side is going to break in morale, neither side is going to show weakness of fighting spirit.

Of course I pretty much typed up all this last time the thread came up :smallwink:

Rutee
2008-05-25, 01:35 PM
What are you talking about, with "indestructible barrier"?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-25, 01:37 PM
What are you talking about, with "indestructible barrier"?

That shield that came with halo 3 which repels enemy fire (Or at least, that is what fluff says), and that had a counterpart in that dome that killed anything that entered it.

Innis Cabal
2008-05-25, 01:37 PM
Halo 3 (pictured) has the Bubbleshield. This Beehive Barrier doesn't offer complete protection, however - while the shield will stop bullets, plasma bolts, grenades and rockets, players and vehicles can pass straight through.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BeehiveBarrier

Fist enters in, end of story.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-25, 01:39 PM
Halo 3 (pictured) has the Bubbleshield. This Beehive Barrier doesn't offer complete protection, however - while the shield will stop bullets, plasma bolts, grenades and rockets, players and vehicles can pass straight through.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BeehiveBarrier

Fist enters in, end of story.

D'you think the SMurf has such a long reach? He doesn't. It's exactly the reason I was saying John wins.

Or, if you want to be really cheesy, he puts the bubbleshield and that antilife bubble, then stands behind them, and the SMurf either toasts himself, or enters a game of tag.

Innis Cabal
2008-05-25, 01:41 PM
Or waits for the strange energy around the enemy to disappear and then smash him to bits? Also, yes the SM's reach is rather long, he is a good three heads above a normal person, where as a Spartan is around one, SM has longer reach, and it dosnt stop physical things like...trucks, so the SM could just heave them onto the Spartan barring anything else.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-25, 01:43 PM
Shamelessly stolen from another site

Speed.



One or two men tried to make a stand now. One of them had raised his autorifle to his shoulder and was aiming at point-blank range at Ragnar. The Space Wolf sprang to one side as the autofire ripped past him. He brought up his own bolt pistol and slew the shooter with a single shot, silencing his weapon forever.



The first guard died without a sound, Uriel's knife hammering through the base of his skull. He dropped and Uriel wrenched the blade clear, spinning low and driving it into the second guard's groin. Blood sprayed and the man shrieked in horrified agony. A lasgun was raised and Uriel lunged forward, smashing his fist into the foe's face, the augmented muscles of his power armor smashing the man's head into shards. Uriel spun on his heel, dodging a thrusting bayonet, and thundering his elbow into the last guard's chin, taking the base of his skull off. Teeth and blood splattered the bunker door.
He dropped into a defensive crouch, dragging his knife clear of the corpse beside him and cleaning the blade on its overalls. The killing of the guards had taken less than three seconds.

Strength.



Ragnar smiled and casually backhanded his attacker. Teeth flew everywhere and bones broke as his foe was thrown across the room.



He picked up the metal table. The bolts holding it to the floor snapped as he lifted it free and tossed it into the oncomming mass of drugged fanatics. It bolwed them over and left them sprawling beneath its weight. Haegr reached forward and picked two up, one in each hand, and then used them as clubs, to batter their companions senseless.

RAD (Retarded Armour Durability).



Heavy autocannon fire sprayed the roof of the building, churning up its pebbled surface and shredding human flash. The men who had been awaiting rescue in the flyers were the first to die, ripped apart in seconds by the heavy calibre, armour piercing shells. Vedden screamed as an autocannon shell clipped him, instantly shearing his leg from his body in midthigh. He collapsed, dragging the girl to the ground with him.
The Ultramarines scattered, firing at the ornithopters, but their bolter rounds were ineffective against the armoured undersides of the gunships.
Learchus sprinted forward, diving to the ground to gather the girl in his arms and rolling on top of her as the ornithopter's shells ripped towards her. He supported his weight on his elbows so as not to crush the girl and felt the powerful impacts hammer into his backplate. He offered a small prayer of thanks to his armour for standing firm against the traitorous fire.



Giant forks of lightning, savage and yellow-white phosphorescent, were searing down into the open space, explosively scorching the earth. Though each fork only existed for a nanosecond, they seemed solid and real, like fundamental, physical structures, like upturned, thorny trees. Three Astartes, including Lucius, were struck. Secure in their Mark IV plate, they shrugged off the massive, detonating impacts and laughed as aftershock electrical blooms crackled like garlands of blue wire around their armour for a few seconds.
[...]
The storm above grew still more ferocious. Five more men were struck. One of them, Ulzoras, was actually knocked off his feet. They saw fused, glassy craters in the ground where lighting had earthed with the force of penetrator missiles.

BF (Badass Factor).



Suddenly a shadow passed over the captain and he spun in time to see dark winged creatures in midnight black power armor swoop down alongside him. Their helmets were moulded in the form of screaming daemons and ululating howls shrieked from their vox units. They carried stubby pistols and serrated black swords that smoked as though fresh from the furnace. Idaeus knew the foul creatures as Raptors, and fired into their midst, blasting one of the abominable warriors from the sky. Another crashed into him, stabbing with a black bladed sword. Idaeus grunted as he felt the blade pierce one of his lungs, and broke the Raptor's neck with a blow from his free hand. He staggered back, the sword still embedded in his chest, taking refuge in the tangle of metal beneath the bridge to avoid the howling Raptors. Two landed between him and the melta charge as dozens more descended from the bridge. Three more swooped in behind him, their wings folding behind them and they landed on the girders. Idaeus snarled and raised his pistol as they charged.
Idaeus killed the first with his pistol. A second shot killed another, but he couldn't move quickly enough to avoid the third. White heat exploded in his face, searing the flesh from the side of his skull as the Raptor fired his plasma pistol. He fell back, blind with pain, and didn't see the crackling sword blow that hacked his left arm from his body. He bellowed with rage as he watched his arm tumbled down towards the river, Uriel's last breeching charge still clutched in the armoured fist.
The Raptor closed for the kill, but Idaeus was ready. He dragged the smoking sword from his chest and howled with battle fury as he hammered the sword through the Raptor's neck. He collapsed next to the headless corpse, releasing his grip on the sword hilt. Dizziness and pain swamped him. He tried to stand, but the strength was gone.



He kicked him back outside as more enemies pushed themselves in. Uriel fired his pistol and rolled beneath a crackling power fist. He drove his knife in the gap between his enemy’s breastplate and helmet, wrenching the blade upwards. Blood fountained and he yelled in sudden pain as the warrior fired his bolter at point blank range. The shell penetrated his armor and blasted a fist-sized chunk of his hip clear. He stabbed his opponent’s neck again and again, stopping only when his struggles ceased completely.
Idaeus and the last Space Marine in the gun nest fought back to back, desperately fighting for their lives against four Night Lords. Uriel leapt into the combat, wrapping his powerful arms around one Chaos Space Marine‘s neck. He twisted hard, snapping his spine

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-25, 02:20 PM
Strength: Spartans, without armor, can dent combat armor. With armor they can lift tanks.

Speed: Spartans have been clocked at 55 km/hour+ without armor and 105 km/h+ with armor as well, sorry I can't provide a page reference as all my Halo books are Audio Books. They have twitch reflexes at least 10 times as good as an average humans.

Stamina: They have been in near constant war for at least 20 years.

Durability: The game is a pack of lies with balance. Read the books. They can take pretty much everything up too direct hits from anti-tank rockets.

Space marines are good, but most of their enhancements mean jack **** in armor.

Spartan Enhancements: http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/SPARTAN-II_Augmentation_Procedures

Most of the geneseed's have no real effect when both people are in armor. Maybe a third are actually relevant.
Occulobe
Larraman's Organ
Haemastamen
Biscopea
Ossmodula
Secondary Heart

And Spartans have the same abilities either from their armor or their own enhancements.

As for powerfists and other melee weapons, they require the SM to get inside melee range.

Jayngfet
2008-05-25, 02:26 PM
Aren't Smurfs and SPARTAN's both larger than normal humans by an amount?

Spartans are larger, but by about a head according to fall of reach, at least when he was six John was a head taller than anyone else on the playground, so it's big, but believable.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-25, 02:31 PM
Spartans are larger, but by about a head according to fall of reach, at least when he was six John was a head taller than anyone else on the playground, so it's big, but believable.

John is 7 feet tall in armor, 6'10" without.

Innis Cabal
2008-05-25, 02:34 PM
Spartans are on the short end of SM's, which average 7-11 feet tall

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-25, 02:48 PM
Spartans are on the short end of SM's, which average 7-11 feet tall

So they are smaller targets?

Deathcow
2008-05-25, 02:57 PM
I'm gonna have to pull for the SM on this one. Without plot armor and infinite respawns, Master Chief gets wrecked... bolter>assault rifle, lascannon>spartan laser, krak grenade>plasma grenade, power sword>energy sword.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-25, 03:35 PM
I'm gonna have to pull for the SM on this one. Without plot armor and infinite respawns, Master Chief gets wrecked... bolter>assault rifle, lascannon>spartan laser, krak grenade>plasma grenade, power sword>energy sword.

Proof? Just because you claim something doesn't make it true. Unless we are using the 40K videogames then we should use the book Master Chief/Spartans. And those are at least as good as an average SM.

Bolter's loose a lot of their effectiveness because they won't penetrate. They explode on the shield, meaning minimal damage.

Why do you claim a lascannon is stronger than a Spartan Laser? Or a power sword vs. an energy sword?

Selrahc
2008-05-25, 03:41 PM
Speed.

>Ragnar Blackmane example<

Bear in mind that Ragnar is a freak. He has superhuman reflexes that definitely outstrip those of other Space Marines. It is a special ability of the character, not indicative of normal space marines. When they released a model for Ragnar they even included his psycho reflexes in the rules, giving him a 4+inv save.

Also bear in mind... thats still about thae level of stuff that Spartans can do!

Also, for the second strength example, Haegr is noted in the text as being an embarassing genetic freak, far far stronger than any other Space Wolf, but with a physique that runs to fatty rather than muscley. Hes such a freak that he gets posted to the same reject squad that Ragnar ends up in after he screws up.

The other examples are all fine as far as I know. I've not read chain of command though, so I don't know any mitigating circumstances.



So they are smaller targets?

Yep. Good at range, bad in melee where reach is very useful.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-25, 05:21 PM
Yep. Good at range, bad in melee where reach is very useful.
If you are regularly getting into melee range of a target when you have firearms and rockets then you have a problem (barring fighting in confined spaces).

And Spartans can take brutes (which are at least as strong and large as SM's) in hand to hand combat.

Rutee
2008-05-25, 05:30 PM
And Spartans can take brutes (which are at least as strong and large as SM's) in hand to hand combat.

I beileve this is the part where you proceed to prove your comparison point.

Jayngfet
2008-05-25, 06:14 PM
I beileve this is the part where you proceed to prove your comparison point.

I think he meant that brutes are much stronger than spartans and have much better physical abilities but still get killed in large numbers.

Innis Cabal
2008-05-25, 06:16 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Covenant_%28Halo%29#Brutes

They are as strong as an elite, which isnt as strong as an SM, next argument?

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-25, 06:19 PM
I think he meant that brutes are much stronger than spartans and have much better physical abilities but still get killed in large numbers.

1. but he DIDN'T say that, he said they were stronger than SM.
2. By Elites and MC mostly, elites being, as their name implies, ELITE, and MC having so much plot armor he could probably somehow survive falling into a SUN. Plus they don't wear all that much armor. SM wear armor that can survive powerful ARMOR PIERCING rounds from an ornithopter.

Cuddly
2008-05-25, 06:38 PM
Question:
Can a space marine turn invisible

and

Can space marines detect invisibility?

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-25, 06:40 PM
Question:
Can a space marine turn invisible

and

Can space marines detect invisibility?

1. Don't believe so
2. Yes, they have multiple different ocular implants, as well as the fact that their helmets have different vision settings (such as preysight, A.K.A IR on steroids)

Innis Cabal
2008-05-25, 06:49 PM
They have Cameleoline, not exactly the same thing, but ya they can go "invisable"

Kane
2008-05-25, 07:22 PM
Note: Not drawing on any fluff here, only games, as much as I can. That's what's being compared after all, isn't it?

It's certainly not the Spartan's fault, but in spite of their techno-cultic imperium, the SMs have a ludicrous tech advantage. Thirty-nine Millenia isn't something to disregard, no matter how much regression it's been filled with. At the very most, the Covenant might be on par with Imperium tech, but OH WAIT, in game, the Covenant are an exact match of the UNSC! They have numbers, and the UNSC has John and infinite respawns. If you'd care to disagree, please touch on why a plasma rifle does about the same damage as a SMG? I like my plasma weapons to be effective.

To further illustrate this point, I draw on the ever-reliable TvTropes:


The basic sidearm of a Space Marine is a fully automatic armour-piercing rocket-propelled grenade launcher.
*********************
Even the standard issue Imperial Guardsman's lasgun, one of the weakest weapons in the setting, is capable of blowing off heads and limbs with a single shot. Considered weak because the average foot soldier in the setting is either wearing an absurdly huge suit of armor made of future ceramics/living metal/enormous rusted steel plates held together by bolts and belief, or won't even notice a mere lost head or limb.

Yah. Especially for that first one, Imagine a rapid fire bruteshot with no trajectory problems. (Assuming the Imperium is limited to the same explosives as the UNSC is. Yes, I'm glaring meaningfully at that thirty-nine millennium difference, again.)

Now, drawing on that fluff, I'd like to point out something that hasn't been mentioned yet. Cost.

A Spartan is ridiculously expensive to train, and so on, and a SM is too, but less so. Further, SMs equipment is factory produced. A single Chapter of SMs is probably more than all the Spartans UNSC ever made. And at this point, I'm tempted to point out the relative sources of recruits, the Imperium vs. the UNSC, but that's completely irrelevant.

SMs win. Simple as that. Now, for the real question, WHY, we all have to remember something.

The whole point of WH40K is to be over-the-****ing-top with awesome. Eleven foot Chainswords. Guns that shoot shurukien and lightning. Daemons and tyranids and anime-style mechs with guns that send you straight to hell.

Yah. SMs win because WH40K is supposed to be so freaking ridiculous that it take another game with the exact same purpose to even rival it.

Edit: I apologize for the venom in the beginning. I'm still a bit bitter over how the Covenant's 'technological advantage' got curb-stomped for the sake of game balance.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-25, 07:54 PM
1. but he DIDN'T say that, he said they were stronger than SM.
They are. SM's aren't much stronger than Spartans (if they even are stronger) and Brutes are stronger than Spartans. Spartans in armor can 1 hand flip tanks. Out of armor they can punch battle armor hard enough to dent it enough so that it no longer works.


2. By Elites and MC mostly, elites being, as their name implies, ELITE, and MC having so much plot armor he could probably somehow survive falling into a SUN. Plus they don't wear all that much armor. SM wear armor that can survive powerful ARMOR PIERCING rounds from an ornithopter.
And MC (and all Spartans) can take equally powerful hits. Seriously, MC took a close hit from an air launched anti-tank rocket and wasn't wounded. Just because the UNSC uses weapons we can envision today doesn't mean they are weak.


Note: Not drawing on any fluff here, only games, as much as I can. That's what's being compared after all, isn't it?
Then your a fool. Both the 40K and the Halo games take balance into account. Playing Halo on Legendary might approximate the actually level MC acts on.


It's certainly not the Spartan's fault, but in spite of their techno-cultic imperium, the SMs have a ludicrous tech advantage. Thirty-nine Millenia isn't something to disregard, no matter how much regression it's been filled with. At the very most, the Covenant might be on par with Imperium tech, but OH WAIT, in game, the Covenant are an exact match of the UNSC! They have numbers, and the UNSC has John and infinite respawns. If you'd care to disagree, please touch on why a plasma rifle does about the same damage as a SMG? I like my plasma weapons to be effective.
Again, read the book. As for the IoM's tech advantage, they really don't have much of one. The Spartan augmentations are superior to the SM ones in terms of combat effectiveness. And look at UNSC AI's, far better than the IoM.


To further illustrate this point, I draw on the ever-reliable TvTropes:
Yes, the armor piercing part doesn't matter as it first has to penetrate the shield. And the bolter round goes boom when it hits the shield, meaning that the explosive is outside of the armor. They will hurt but they won't 1 shot kill a Spartan or elite.

As for lasgun's, the reason the blow off limbs is that they excite the water molecules in the limb. The water turns from a liquid to a gas and you get a boom. They don't do jack to armor.


Yah. Especially for that first one, Imagine a rapid fire bruteshot with no trajectory problems. (Assuming the Imperium is limited to the same explosives as the UNSC is. Yes, I'm glaring meaningfully at that thirty-nine millennium difference, again.)
The bruteshot's grenades suck.


Now, drawing on that fluff, I'd like to point out something that hasn't been mentioned yet. Cost.

A Spartan is ridiculously expensive to train, and so on, and a SM is too, but less so. Further, SMs equipment is factory produced. A single Chapter of SMs is probably more than all the Spartans UNSC ever made. And at this point, I'm tempted to point out the relative sources of recruits, the Imperium vs. the UNSC, but that's completely irrelevant.
Actually the real cost of the Spartans is their armor. And the UNSC has produced more than a chapters worth (the spartan 3's).

Sure, spartans are expensive. But at least the UNSC can produce them as long as they are willing to pay the cost. The IoM doesn't know how to make new geneseed.


SMs win. Simple as that. Now, for the real question, WHY, we all have to remember something.

The whole point of WH40K is to be over-the-****ing-top with awesome. Eleven foot Chainswords. Guns that shoot shurukien and lightning. Daemons and tyranids and anime-style mechs with guns that send you straight to hell.

Yah. SMs win because WH40K is supposed to be so freaking ridiculous that it take another game with the exact same purpose to even rival it.
Actually, most of the 40K units suck individually. The SM's, while good, are no where near the best super soldiers. The only reason that the IoM wins is sheer size. I can think of a few dozen smaller empires and nations that could easily take the IoM if they were only outnumbered 10 to 1 instead of 10000 to 1 (at least).


Edit: I apologize for the venom in the beginning. I'm still a bit bitter over how the Covenant's 'technological advantage' got curb-stomped for the sake of game balance.
Read the books, they are actually quite good.

Innis Cabal
2008-05-25, 08:02 PM
One-Shields lower after they sustain to much force
Two- Multi-melta, its plasma, which wears shields down faster

Spartans arnt invincable because you want to win the discussion. They are in fact less powerful then an SM. Fliping tanks is a game mechanic, are we using game mechanics or fluff? Using both is silly

If we are using game mechanics, a sniper shot one hit kills Spartans in the head, an SM can pull that off. The same cant be said about SM's

Rutee
2008-05-25, 08:04 PM
Spartans arnt invincable because you want to win the discussion.
MOAR IRONY

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-25, 08:05 PM
MOAR IRONY

Hey, the no all-caps filter has been disabled.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-25, 08:23 PM
One-Shields lower after they sustain to much force
Did I claim otherwise?

Two- Multi-melta, its plasma, which wears shields down faster
I don't believe I ever said otherwise.


Spartans arnt invincable because you want to win the discussion.
I never said they were.

They are in fact less powerful then an SM. Fliping tanks is a game mechanic, are we using game mechanics or fluff? Using both is silly
Fine, let's use fluff. Where an unarmored Spartan can punch combat armor made out of a Titanium alloy hard enough to dent it enough to make it not work.

Space Marines are good, I've never claimed otherwise. But, frankly, physical strength doesn't matter. Neither does most of the geneseed. Unless you want to claim that UNSC weapons can't harm SM's then what it really comes down to is speed, tactical awareness, sneakiness, and ability to use their weapons.

Spartans are faster, clocked at over 100 km/h and with a reaction time significantly faster than 20 milliseconds. MC with Cortana has fare greater tactical awareness. We can prolly call sneakiness and ability to use their weapons a draw.

If you had both MC and an SM stand, naked, 10 feet from each other, each armed with a pistol, and had them draw and fire on a signal then the SM would be dead before he drew his gun. MC's reaction time has been artificially enhanced while SM's haven't.

Talkkno
2008-05-25, 08:50 PM
Emperor Tippy, in the one of the Blood angels books, a space Marine had the confidence he take a bolt pistol straight to his chest without adverse effects, and why don't you calc MC's weapons, lasguns are in the megajoule range at the very least(not accounting for hellguns or longlas. If you want calcs i'll gladly provide them) And that is one of the weakest weapons avaiable to the Imperium. Could MC stand against a Nercon Warrior, which laughs off direct bolter shots and has a gun that can strip you away atom by atom? Or face a Pariah's fear aura, which causes the most disciplined Imperium stromtroopers who faced their comrades being stripped away by such weaponry to run away screaming, unable to defend themselves.

Kane
2008-05-25, 09:05 PM
They are. SM's aren't much stronger than Spartans (if they even are stronger) and Brutes are stronger than Spartans. Spartans in armor can 1 hand flip tanks. Out of armor they can punch battle armor hard enough to dent it enough so that it no longer works.


And MC (and all Spartans) can take equally powerful hits. Seriously, MC took a close hit from an air launched anti-tank rocket and wasn't wounded. Just because the UNSC uses weapons we can envision today doesn't mean they are weak.


Then your a fool. Both the 40K and the Halo games take balance into account. Playing Halo on Legendary might approximate the actually level MC acts on.


Again, read the book. As for the IoM's tech advantage, they really don't have much of one. The Spartan augmentations are superior to the SM ones in terms of combat effectiveness. And look at UNSC AI's, far better than the IoM.


Yes, the armor piercing part doesn't matter as it first has to penetrate the shield. And the bolter round goes boom when it hits the shield, meaning that the explosive is outside of the armor. They will hurt but they won't 1 shot kill a Spartan or elite.

As for lasgun's, the reason the blow off limbs is that they excite the water molecules in the limb. The water turns from a liquid to a gas and you get a boom. They don't do jack to armor.


The bruteshot's grenades suck.


Actually the real cost of the Spartans is their armor. And the UNSC has produced more than a chapters worth (the spartan 3's).

Sure, spartans are expensive. But at least the UNSC can produce them as long as they are willing to pay the cost. The IoM doesn't know how to make new geneseed.


Actually, most of the 40K units suck individually. The SM's, while good, are no where near the best super soldiers. The only reason that the IoM wins is sheer size. I can think of a few dozen smaller empires and nations that could easily take the IoM if they were only outnumbered 10 to 1 instead of 10000 to 1 (at least).


Read the books, they are actually quite good.

Lies! Okay, not all, but there are a few points you seem to be ignoring.
A, I don't know too much about WH40K, but from what I've read, the IoM CAN make more geneseed. They have to grow it from already existing ones, I believe, but they can. That's why there are still SMs after 10,000 years of sustained war.
B, The IoM does in fact have a huge tech advantage, and the only reason they don't have AIs AT ALL, is because they're illegal. (Heretech, I think it's called.) The fall of the previous galaxy-spanning human civilization was because of a an AI uprising, from what I've read. Further, I'm pretty sure that training the Spartans is ridiculously expensive.
C, WTF do you base your claim that 'Spartan upgrades are superior to SM upgrades' on? Seriously. How the hell do you know?
D, Legendary doesn't quite work. Because when they use weapons, Plasma pistol to sniper rifle, they're pwnage, and when you use them, they're normal.
E: Main Point: HIS SHIELDS GO DOWN WHEN HE'S SHOT AT! JUST BECAUSE HE HAS SHIELDS DOES NOT MEAN HE'S INDE-*******-STRUCTIBLE! They go DOWN! when he's hit with a brute shot, DOWN! when he's hit with a flamer, and DOWN! when a grenade goes off nearby.

As a personal opinion, I'd like to state that the Tyranid Hive Fleets are enough to make Gravemind **** himself and go hide in a compost heap.

EDIT: Also, if they wanted such wonderful backstory, they could have included it in the game...

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-25, 09:23 PM
Lies! Okay, not all, but there are a few points you seem to be ignoring.
A, I don't know too much about WH40K, but from what I've read, the IoM CAN make more geneseed. They have to grow it from already existing ones, I believe, but they can. That's why there are still SMs after 10,000 years of sustained war.
Well yes and no. Geneseed is collected from SM's and grows its self. But they can't create the original or copies. They have to wait for it to grow its self.


B, The IoM does in fact have a huge tech advantage, and the only reason they don't have AIs AT ALL, is because they're illegal. (Heretech, I think it's called.) The fall of the previous galaxy-spanning human civilization was because of a an AI uprising, from what I've read. Further, I'm pretty sure that training the Spartans is ridiculously expensive.
A lot of there tech is advanced, a lot of it isn't. As for training costs, sure its expensive. Training a marine costs the US government about 1.25 million. But the training costs are a relatively trivial amount. The main cost is their armor, a single suit costs as much as a battlecruiser.


C, WTF do you base your claim that 'Spartan upgrades are superior to SM upgrades' on? Seriously. How the hell do you know?
Look at all the geneseed. The only ones that have a direct combat impact when the SM's are in armor have been previously listed.

Almost every one of them has a Spartan equivalent. And the one upgrade the Spartans have that the SM don't have an equivelent of is this one;

Superconducting fabrication of neural dendrites: Alteration of bioelectrical nerve transduction to shielded electronic transduction. Three hundred percent increase in subject’s reflexes. Anecdotal evidence of marked increase in intelligence, memory, and creativity.

Most soldiers will tell you that the most important physical attribute is reaction speed. The spartan can see something, process the data, and execute a response before your brain receives the information from your eyes.


D, Legendary doesn't quite work. Because when they use weapons, Plasma pistol to sniper rifle, they're pwnage, and when you use them, they're normal.
Yes, but the enemies are a lot better. Read the books.


E: Main Point: HIS SHIELDS GO DOWN WHEN HE'S SHOT AT! JUST BECAUSE HE HAS SHIELDS DOES NOT MEAN HE'S INDE-*******-STRUCTIBLE! They go DOWN! when he's hit with a brute shot, DOWN! when he's hit with a flamer, and DOWN! when a grenade goes off nearby.
No, the aren't indestructible. They do go down when he's shot at. It's also stated flat out in one of the books that they are immune to all ballistic weapons short of a sniper rifle. It's not represented in game for balance reasons, but MC can take a point blank shotgun blast to the chest and not be wounded or have any penetration.


As a personal opinion, I'd like to state that the Tyranid Hive Fleets are enough to make Gravemind **** himself and go hide in a compost heap.

EDIT: Also, if they wanted such wonderful backstory, they could have included it in the game...
Not really. Read the books.

konfeta
2008-05-25, 09:36 PM
Most soldiers will tell you that the most important physical attribute is reaction speed. The spartan can see something, process the data, and execute a response before your brain receives the information from your eyes.

Spartans can break the laws of physics now? I thought Halo was a relatively proper sci-fi universe. Tippy, either you are raging to shut down Space Marines with an even more Catgirl slaying warrior or Halo writers have even less sense of scale than Star Wars writers.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-25, 09:38 PM
.

Spartans can break the laws of physics now? I thought Halo was a relatively proper sci-fi universe. Tippy, either you are raging to shut down Space Marines or Halo writers have even less sense of scale than Star Wars writers.

No, as is in the quote I provided "Alteration of bioelectrical nerve transduction to shielded electronic transduction.". Their nerves transmit data at the speed of light, biological ones don't.

Jayngfet
2008-05-25, 09:47 PM
.

Spartans can break the laws of physics now? I thought Halo was a relatively proper sci-fi universe. Tippy, either you are raging to shut down Space Marines with an even more Catgirl slaying warrior or Halo writers have even less sense of scale than Star Wars writers.

Yes, thats he gist of it, spartans can see anything going on in front of them with ridiculous ease and kill it before it can take a step, obviously because he's being controlled by a normal human it's not going to appear in the games, as will the shield for balance reasons, John got shot several times and failed to notice until a few minutes later, in his armor from the original game.

Eita
2008-05-25, 09:50 PM
Well yes and no. Geneseed is collected from SM's and grows its self. But they can't create the original or copies. They have to wait for it to grow its self.

Mainly because, you know, the original geneseed was garnered from the Primarchs. Then again, theoretically, the Ultramarines and Dark Angels can still use their Primarchs' genetic makeup...

Also, the Marines do get better reaction speeds. Somehow. The books do in fact state that they do all sorts of awesome crap where a man is killed before he can draw a gun.

Kane
2008-05-25, 09:52 PM
But isn't this game vs. game, not fluff? If they wanted all this to be so ridiculously badass, they could have included it. BTW, I would think that the stronger you are, the better a suit would be able to amplify your strength.

Further, if we're counting the fluff, all the WH units are about ten times as awesome, Guardsmen are as good as SMs, and a single SM could take one anything in one on one combat. Spartan, Carnifex, Scarab, or Gravemind.

Also, Someone here has mentioned that, aside from 117, the other Spartans don't have shields. Is this true?


... Man, I'm starting to feel like this guy... (http://xkcd.com/386/)

Shadrin
2008-05-25, 09:55 PM
We can't really use the games, especially in WH40ks case, as the numbers are pretty much arbritary, and also limited by this thing called 'balance'.

Jayngfet
2008-05-25, 10:03 PM
But isn't this game vs. game, not fluff? If they wanted all this to be so ridiculously badass, they could have included it. BTW, I would think that the stronger you are, the better a suit would be able to amplify your strength.

Further, if we're counting the fluff, all the WH units are about ten times as awesome, Guardsmen are as good as SMs, and a single SM could take one anything in one on one combat. Spartan, Carnifex, Scarab, or Gravemind.

Also, Someone here has mentioned that, aside from 117, the other Spartans don't have shields. Is this true?


... Man, I'm starting to feel like this guy... (http://xkcd.com/386/)]

The other spartans did have shields, but only the chief got an AI, thanks to the fact that cortana got to choose who she went with.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-25, 10:05 PM
Also, the Marines do get better reaction speeds. Somehow. The books do in fact state that they do all sorts of awesome crap where a man is killed before he can draw a gun.
Yes, but is the man every killed before he sees you draw a gun?

A Spartan can draw, aim, fire and holster a pistol before your brain has processed this sentence.


But isn't this game vs. game, not fluff? If they wanted all this to be so ridiculously badass, they could have included it. BTW, I would think that the stronger you are, the better a suit would be able to amplify your strength.
No, its fluff vs. fluff. And yes, if you are stronger then the stronger your amplified strength is (at least in the Spartans case). But physical strength doesn't matter so long as you have enough to use your weapons easily.


Also, Someone here has mentioned that, aside from 117, the other Spartans don't have shields. Is this true?
No. They all have shields, John just has better shields IIRC (trying to remember the timeline). All spartans 2's have the Combat Evolved armor and I think they all have the Halo 2 armor as well. But I'm not positive of the second point.

Eita
2008-05-25, 10:10 PM
Yes, but is the man every killed before he sees you draw a gun?

A Spartan can draw, aim, fire and holster a pistol before your brain has processed this sentence.

....

God damn lack of sense of scale...

Just because of that claim's insanity, I'm going to ask for a quote.

Sliver_Slave
2008-05-25, 10:12 PM
Wait, if spartans get 117, then I say that SMs get Horus, greatest of the Primarchs, pre heresy.

Shadrin
2008-05-25, 10:18 PM
Wait, if spartans get 117, then I say that SMs get Horus, greatest of the Primarchs, pre heresy.

Thats a little overkill don't you think?

konfeta
2008-05-25, 10:28 PM
No, as is in the quote I provided "Alteration of bioelectrical nerve transduction to shielded electronic transduction.". Their nerves transmit data at the speed of light, biological ones don't.

My bad, didn't read that. So Spartans are not human anymore? Cyborgs? If that's the case, a standard Space Marine is not exactly a fitting match. You are putting down a pinnacle of a war machinery against, although super boosted, what is essentially a human soldier.

This Spartan seems to be approaching anime level of power this rate. The writers really don't have a sense of scale. The WH40k needs to put down a special character here for it to be even, the only way I can see a mook SM winning is a Vortex grenade and a contrived set of circumstances. If MC is positive he can't be hurt inside his shield, that should make it his final rude awakening.

**Another point to consider - superhuman reflexes or not, are the 117's weapons strong enough to kill the SM before he pulls off a counter-killing maneuver (provided he gets one through a wargear or a good weapon)?


****Oh, I know a Wh40k human entity that matches the Spartan. Officio Assassinorum produces the kinds of humans that Spartan seems like. Those guys exist to mop the floor with the kinds of traitorous Space Marine Chapter Master's if the need arises.

Kane
2008-05-25, 10:31 PM
Indeed. From what I've read, poor 117 is going to wish he'd never been born.


But aside from that, I think John's plot armor passed it's expiration date now that #3 is finished. And even otherwise, he still never had a chance. The 40K weapons are all ridiculously overpowered because all their similarly overdone armor. The SM armor is about six inches thick, and far more durable than anything that the Spartan armor could be, shields or no. (And aside from the recharging factor, shields aren't that great anyway.)

And, like I mentioned, full auto, armor piercing RPG launcher for a sidearm. 117's got a snowflake's chance.

Eita
2008-05-25, 10:47 PM
Then you didn't beat Halo 3 on Legendary. I sense something in the works.

Shadrin
2008-05-25, 10:49 PM
It seems that 117 has a pretty significant speed advantage over your standard SM. It all comes down to if his weapons are capable of killing the SM before the SM retaliates.

Someone more familiar than me with the Haloverse should create a list of the weapons possibly powerful enough, preferable with specific examples of their power.

This is of course assuming they get to pick their weapons. I highly doubt their standard weapons are capable of even denting SM armor.

warty goblin
2008-05-25, 11:58 PM
This is of course assuming they get to pick their weapons. I highly doubt their standard weapons are capable of even denting SM armor.

And therein lies much of the problem as I see it. Most of the UNSC's weapons are more or less conventional, gunpowder driven weapons. Pretty much all of them are also operable by normal humans not wearing power armor and sans structural modifications, meaning that modern weapons give a fairly good picture of their power. In fact, if we use the gameplay at all, most of them are significantly worse than modern firearms, possesing at the same time lower accuracy and worse stopping power.

Let's see here, Halo weaponry:
Assault/Battle Rifles. Are roughly equivilent to a modern assault rifle, and won't do squat to a Space Marine, given that we have body armor right now that is fairly effective at stopping AR caliber bullets.

Pistol: As above, but shorter barrel will result in lower projectile power, and a lighter weapon in higher recoil. Worthless.

Sniper Rifle: May be able to penetrate some parts of Space Marine armor, but won't kill the occupant. Over-penetrating ammo is actually a bad thing, it means you take a whack-ton of recoil, and most of the bullet's energy just flies out of the back of your target. Given that Space Marine's are highly resistant to damage, having the occasional hole shot in them won't be much of a problem.

Rocket-launcher: Probably could penetrate SM armor, but you have to hit, and that I just don't see happening. I mean really, the projectiles are slow enough that normal humans on lagged out internet connections can dodge 'em, somebody with two hundred years combat experience shouldn't have any trouble.

SMG: Really, must I? Well, why not? Small caliber ammunition, short barrel and poor accuracy all combine to make this weapon worthless against armor. Again, modern body armor offers good protection against SMGs, a Space Marine's shouldn't have very much trouble at all.

Shotgun: Fires buckshot, a munition used by law enforcement since it doesn't penetrate walls and stuff, which can lead to unwanted civilian casualties. Armor is tougher than walls. Still human operable, so it won't actually be much more powerful than a standard real world shotty. This won't do jack.

Spartan Laser. Would almost certainly be able to kill a Space Marine, but it has that pesky warm up time, during which the operator is so vulnerable to getting blown into small pieces.

Covenent Weaponry:
Beam Rifle: See Sniper Rifle.

Carbine: Human operable and fires solid shot. Worthless.

Plasma Pistol: Might work if the overcharge projectile hits. Hard to say, since Halo plasma seems much less horrifically destructive than WH40K plasma.

Plasma Rifle: Probably worse that plasma pistol, but again, hard to say.

Needler: My Halo PC manual specifically states that the needles don't penetrate armored surfaces at oblique (non right) angles. Given that Space Marine armor is well, armor, and also generally curved, I don't see this doing a lot.

Brute Shot: Some sort of funky ass grenade launcher. Might work, but really, who uses the brute shot? The grenades alwasy felt underpowered to me, but that's just gameplay I guess.

Energy Sword: Really, Master Chief does not want to go hand to hand with a Space Marine. For one thing, even a good hit won't kill the SM fast enough, and the Space Marine has such a wonderful selection of hand to hand weapons to choose from anyway.

Gravity Hammer: Bigger and slower than energy sword = worse.

Final Analysis: Some of the Covenent weapons might work, but if Master Chief is restricted to UNSC weapons he is screwed over massively. The only weapons that might work (rocket launcher, sniper rifle) have significant enough handicaps to make them less than desirable weapons.

Verruckt
2008-05-26, 12:52 AM
D'you think the SMurf has such a long reach? He doesn't. It's exactly the reason I was saying John wins.

Or, if you want to be really cheesy, he puts the bubbleshield and that antilife bubble, then stands behind them, and the SMurf either toasts himself, or enters a game of tag.

space marines are 7 or 8 feet tall, this equates to long arms, and i'm sure is first instinct when he sees something like a void shield is to walk into it.

NO

what wins this for chief is Cortana, the tactical benefits of having a super computer in your head are immense. everyone remember the missile punching trick? The one where Cortana hacked into the military comm net, found out that someone had just fired a plane mounted anti tank missile at chief, calculated it's flight path, and told chief when to punch it within the millisecond, pushing it away enough to not kill him.

Don't underestimate chief's intelligence either, he figured out that his strength had been surgically increased by doing physics calculations in his head on a non standard gravity space station.

I'm not saying Marines are dumb, far from it, I'm saying Cortana is much smarter.

konfeta
2008-05-26, 12:52 AM
AFAIK Covenant weaponry is as horrifically overpowered in the novels as MC when compared to the game.

Neon Knight
2008-05-26, 07:42 AM
Shotgun: Fires buckshot, a munition used by law enforcement since it doesn't penetrate walls and stuff, which can lead to unwanted civilian casualties. Armor is tougher than walls. Still human operable, so it won't actually be much more powerful than a standard real world shotty. This won't do jack.


Bullhonkey.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

Birdshot can penetrate several layers of dry wall. Buckshot even more. Slugs just punch on through.

Unless using rifled slugs, shotguns are worse penetrators that conventional weapons. This is true. But that does not equate to no penetration.

Police use shotguns for one very good reason: they kill people. In fact, due to concerns that a stray round might injure a bystander, most police forces are actually switching to carbines which are more precise. Except for Nevada officers, at least when I rode in one of their squad cars a couple months back. He had an AR-15 and a shotgun.

Secondly:
The M90. (http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/M90_Close_Assault_Weapon_System)

It's an 8-gauge weapon. More powerful than most conventional 12 gauge shotguns, although the Russians have a couple of 10 gauges.

EDIT: Not to say that it can penetrate SM armor, but it is more powerful than conventional shotguns.

Also, I've got a couple of other objections to raise, but that will come later.

Stop using the game. Use the fluff. If you keep using the game, I'm going to ge tout my Dawn of War patch history, find the absolute weakest incarnation of the Space Marines I can find, and use them as my basis. WHAT YOU SEE IN THE GAME IS A GAME. IT HAS TO BE BALANCED, AND IT IS LIMITED BY THE ENGINE. It is not a representation of how the book Spartans work AT ALL. Thank you.

Sliver_Slave
2008-05-26, 08:02 AM
Thats a little overkill don't you think?

Okay, yeah, waaay overkill, how about marines get Ragnar?

I'd say he's similar in skill and plot armour to John.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-26, 08:21 AM
Okay, yeah, waaay overkill, how about marines get Ragnar?

I'd say he's similar in skill and plot armour to John.

Or Uriel Ventris, he's highly badass.

Neon Knight
2008-05-26, 08:43 AM
Okay, yeah, waaay overkill, how about marines get Ragnar?

I'd say he's similar in skill and plot armour to John.

And why on earth should we do that?

If I make a vs. topic (*shudder*) pitting a Delta Force operative with access to all the 1 man operable weapon systems of the U.S. against a Starcraft Confederacy Space Marine, with standard armor and Gauss rifle, you can't say that the Starcraft Confederacy Space Marine should be replaced with a Ghost.

The question is not "can U.S. Army Special Forces beat Starcraft Special Forces?" The question is "can an exemplary present day special forces soldier with a varied arsenal best a stimmed up brainwashed future soldier cannon fodder in battle armor with a superior assault rifle?"

The question here is "can a heroic Spartan best a typical WH40k Space Marine?"

Unless you're saying that an ordinary Space Marine is toast and a higher caliber opponent is required. :smalltongue:

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-26, 08:49 AM
And why on earth should we do that?

If I make a vs. topic (*shudder*) pitting a Delta Force operative with access to all the 1 man operable weapon systems of the U.S. against a Starcraft Confederacy Space Marine, with standard armor and Gauss rifle, you can't say that the Starcraft Confederacy Space Marine should be replaced with a Ghost.

The question is not "can U.S. Army Special Forces beat Starcraft Special Forces?" The question is "can an exemplary present day special forces soldier with a varied arsenal best a stimmed up brainwashed future soldier cannon fodder in battle armor with a superior assault rifle?"

The question here is "can a heroic Spartan best a typical WH40k Space Marine?"

Unless you're saying that an ordinary Space Marine is toast and a higher caliber opponent is required. :smalltongue:

Why? Because the thread started out an average Spartan II against an average SM, and if your side is going to bump it up to a heroic Spartan, its only fair if we bump it up to a heroic SM.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2008-05-26, 08:54 AM
Actually, it did specifically start out being Master Chief. Look at the first post.


Assume that this is Spartan 117(master chief) in his full and best armor against an average space marine, both have access to any two weapons of their choice, but with no additional ammo beyond one refill, they may use any weapons fashoned from the area's natural resource

That said, Master Chief has save points. Game.

(Alright, in-game mechanics are cheating...sue me.)

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-26, 09:01 AM
Actually, it did specifically start out being Master Chief. Look at the first post.



That said, Master Chief has save points. Game.

(Alright, in-game mechanics are cheating...sue me.)

I missed that. And I might. Still, why match up a character with god knows how much plot armor, and a nameless (if badass) mook. Merely by virtue of being a named and important character MC wins. It should be a named vs. a named character.

Verruckt
2008-05-26, 09:13 AM
I agree with you on most of these, except for the ones below, purely on the basis of using fluff as opposed to game play.



Sniper Rifle: May be able to penetrate some parts of Space Marine armor, but won't kill the occupant. Over-penetrating ammo is actually a bad thing, it means you take a whack-ton of recoil, and most of the bullet's energy just flies out of the back of your target. Given that Space Marine's are highly resistant to damage, having the occasional hole shot in them won't be much of a problem.

Beam Rifle: See Sniper Rifle.


True, except for the 35 pound recoil dampener on that sniper rifle (it is essentially an unmodified NTW-20mm with a fancy scope) and the fact that even a space marine stops walking when that "occasional hole" is in his head.



Plasma Pistol: Might work if the overcharge projectile hits. Hard to say, since Halo plasma seems much less horrifically destructive than WH40K plasma.

Plasma Rifle: Probably worse that plasma pistol, but again, hard to say.


Plasma weaponry in the games seems to be seriously gimped in comparison to the book's descriptions. Covenant plasma technology is impossibly advanced. They use magnetic field projection to maintain containment of plasma torpedoes the size of a bus at space combat ranges, which is insane if you think about the power consumption necessary to pull that off. Before they were equipped with elite shield technology the first covenant vs. spartan II encounter ended with one of the Spartans getting slagged (he started to melt and boil in places) by a pair of jackals. Granted, he was about as red shirt as they come when you are talking about killing machines, but I digress. All fluff indications show that covenant plasma tech is just as nasty as imperial designs, and far more ubiquitous.



Brute Shot: Some sort of funky ass grenade launcher. Might work, but really, who uses the brute shot? The grenades always felt underpowered to me, but that's just gameplay I guess.


Yup, gameplay, first time the Spartans run into these one of them gets bisected, sticky. The book indicated that was only because her shields were down from a previous blast from the same brute, but the grenade penetrated her midsection and then went off. Actually, now that I think of it, give this thing a bigger clip, and you have a bolter...



Energy Sword: Really, Master Chief does not want to go hand to hand with a Space Marine. For one thing, even a good hit won't kill the SM fast enough, and the Space Marine has such a wonderful selection of hand to hand weapons to choose from anyway.

Gravity Hammer: Bigger and slower than energy sword = worse.

Yeah, tell that to every terminator who'd rather carry a titan hammer than a power sword :smalltongue: That grav hammer can de-turret tanks in-game, unfortunately it has yet to make an appearance in any of the fluff that I've read.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-26, 09:20 AM
Or Uriel Ventris, he's highly badass.

INDRICK BOREALE.

The most badass, and best voice-acted, Space Marine ever.

Neon Knight
2008-05-26, 09:21 AM
Solid Snake would not beat a generic WH40k Space Marine by virtue of being a named and important character. We are not in a story. We are in a versus thread, which is somewhere between the 9th and theoretical 10th levels of Dante's Inferno.

Book 117 does not have plot armor. According to the books, he can perceive the world in bullet time. This is not a unique ability. It is a feature of all Spartans. I believe they even call it "Spartan time." :smallyuk: The Halo books are apparently that over-the-top.

Destro_Yersul
2008-05-26, 09:41 AM
Tough call. I'm tempted to say Marine, but only because of rabid 40k fanboyism.

UNSC weapons, Spartan Laser excepted, aren't likely to do anything to a Marine. Covenant weapons would work better. They last Longer as well. It's noted in Post 1 that You only get one clip per gun, and one refill.

On that note, I'd go with the following:
Spartan Laser: Much better than sniper rifles for long range work, which is the only range you want to be using this at against a marine. He can get close enough to kill you in the three seconds the weapon spends charging.

Plasma Rifle: Given that this will burn through a normal human's torso, back to front, in one shot, it's much better than the game depicts it as. Nowhere near the level of Imperium of Man plasma weapons, but it has a fair number of shots and enough stopping power to be the weapon of choice for middle range combat. Once again, you do NOT want the marine to get close to you. He will win if he does.

Fore the Marine:
Plasma Gun: Take the refill for this, and get yourself the extra shots. At only 10 per clip, they could come in handy. Given the ridiculous power of this gun, as well as the fact that the shields tend to burn out quicker when used against energy weapons, this is the obvious choice.

Heavy Bolter: I'm going to go against the Lascannon trend and suggest this for the Marine's long range weapon. It has more shots in the magazine, for one thing (only source I found suggested that Lascannon Backpack power cells are good for around 40 shots), though there is the issue of slightly decreased range. Not so much of a problem, of course, when the battlefield is a forest, and considering that a heavy bolter is like a rapid-firing armour piercing missile launcher on steroids and speed, it should have more than enough power to give pause to the chief.

Since this is a vs. thread, and plot armour shouldn't count for those, I'd say that'd make it an even enough fight. Could go either way, but my money would be on the marine simply because of the ridiculous survivability, and the fact that the chief has to sleep sometimes.

Verruckt
2008-05-26, 09:46 AM
Yeah, as to the issue of reaction times, there are normal humans in our modern world that can act inside of your reaction time. There is/was a vid on the military channel of a Spetsnaz guy grabbing a pistol from another guy on a high speed camera. The calculations that they did showed that the Spetsnaz guy had disarmed the target inside average human reaction time, he had grabbed the gun before the other guy registered his first movement. Now take someone like that, but the genetic cream of the crop of humanity, train him from age 5 on up, and finally strip out his nerves and replace them with fiber-optics. Not crazy any more is it?

Also, since when has something 8 feet tall with no ribs, two hearts, three lungs and corrosive spit been considered human?!? Taken at face most people would think you were talking about ALIEN or a well fed time lord. The Space Marine's greatest irony is that in order to protect humanity they become abominations to the human form they hold in such high regard. See the sacrifice of the noble Astartes, citizen, cower in their burning glory!

chiasaur11
2008-05-26, 10:05 AM
Hmm...
I'm going with John 117. The energy sheilds allow a few hits from even the best weapons before dying, the better reflexes allow most shots to be dodged, and, strength wise, he can one hand flip a tank and punch through a hunter. Looks like the basically decent guy has an edge over the fanatic.

Deathcow
2008-05-26, 11:41 AM
Yup, gameplay, first time the Spartans run into these one of them gets bisected, sticky. The book indicated that was only because her shields were down from a previous blast from the same brute, but the grenade penetrated her midsection and then went off. Actually, now that I think of it, give this thing a bigger clip, and you have a bolter...

So... if a bruteshot's rounds are equivalent to a bolter, except that a bolter is rapid-fire and doesn't suffer from the awful trajectory problems that the bruteshot did... and two bruteshot rounds were enough to shred a generic Spartan (one for the shield, one for the kill), how does 117 stand a fighting chance? Even if he is amazingly badass, two or three rounds from a standard SM sidearm is gonna rip him apart, by your own admission.

Talkkno
2008-05-26, 12:48 PM
The Space Marine will have a massive range advantage if the Spartan is using a plasma weapon, seeing the plasma rifle only has a range of 50 meters, and crudely made Ork bolters managed to damage a delicate part of a shuttle while it was still high up in the atmosphere as it was about to transport CIAPHAS CAIN, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM, and his contingent of Vallhean guardsmen to a fuel production area in the novel Caves of Ice.

Destro_Yersul
2008-05-26, 12:57 PM
Actually, that was an Ork Rokkit Launcha. It's no more likely to hit than a regular cruddy Ork shoota, but it is slightly more likely to cause damage.

chiasaur11
2008-05-26, 12:58 PM
The Space Marine will have a massive range advantage if the Spartan is using a plasma weapon, seeing the plasma rifle only has a range of 50 meters, and crudely made Ork bolters managed to damage a delicate part of a shuttle while it was still high up in the atmosphere as it was about to transport CIAPHAS CAIN, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM, and his contingent of Vallhean guardsmen to a fuel production area in the novel Caves of Ice.

Let's be fair. The Ork's gun worked because the Ork thought it would work. That's how Orks work.

warty goblin
2008-05-26, 01:01 PM
I agree with you on most of these, except for the ones below, purely on the basis of using fluff as opposed to game play.

Thanks for the feedback, here's my responses:


True, except for the 35 pound recoil dampener on that sniper rifle (it is essentially an unmodified NTW-20mm with a fancy scope) and the fact that even a space marine stops walking when that "occasional hole" is in his head.

Good catch on the recoil dampener. Still, over-penetrating ammo is a terrible waste of energy, and in fact might easily lead to less damage done to the target than would be obtained by a slower projectile. The slower shot has a much better chance of tumbling inside the target, and thus depositing more energy into it than the faster round. Also note that flechettes already have crappy terminal ballistics (see: here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flechette#Small_arms_ammunition)) and poor armor penetration. I stand by my conclusions of before- the sniper rifle will be ineffective.



Plasma weaponry in the games seems to be seriously gimped in comparison to the book's descriptions. Covenant plasma technology is impossibly advanced. They use magnetic field projection to maintain containment of plasma torpedoes the size of a bus at space combat ranges, which is insane if you think about the power consumption necessary to pull that off. Before they were equipped with elite shield technology the first covenant vs. spartan II encounter ended with one of the Spartans getting slagged (he started to melt and boil in places) by a pair of jackals. Granted, he was about as red shirt as they come when you are talking about killing machines, but I digress. All fluff indications show that covenant plasma tech is just as nasty as imperial designs, and far more ubiquitous.

I alwasy suspected that the plasma weaponry was weirdly nerfed, good to have confirmation. Still it really doesn't strike me as that potent- boiling somebody, particularly only parts of them doesn't actually take that much energy (about 250 joules/gram of water I once calculated, I can reproduce the math if you want).

Also note that the range listed in my Halo manual for the plasma rifle is 100-150 kV, 2-3dA. I really don't know what dA means unfortunately, despite significant research time, and plasma really doesn't seem to be measured in kiloVolts, or Volts of any kind for that matter. It can be measured in electronVolts, but something that produces 150 kiloelectronVolts wouldn't be much of a weapon, since it produces something on the order of 1x10^(-14) joules of energy.



Yup, gameplay, first time the Spartans run into these one of them gets bisected, sticky. The book indicated that was only because her shields were down from a previous blast from the same brute, but the grenade penetrated her midsection and then went off. Actually, now that I think of it, give this thing a bigger clip, and you have a bolter...

Which, as pointed out, says very bad things about a Spartan's chance of surviving an encounter with somebody weilding a bolter, or even worse, a heavy bolter. If two hits are enough to kill, and since bolters generally fire bursts of 3-4 shots, a single burst could literally reduce Master Chief to a sort of very wet confetti. Also, pardon me, but it doesn't say great things about Spartan armor if it can be penetrated by a grenade, weapons not generally known for their armor piercing abilities.



Yeah, tell that to every terminator who'd rather carry a titan hammer than a power sword :smalltongue: That grav hammer can de-turret tanks in-game, unfortunately it has yet to make an appearance in any of the fluff that I've read.
I think the deal with carrying a Titan hammer instead of a power sword is that a Termie is durable enough to be able to survive getting hit between swings. The Master Chief however does not seem to be tough enough to survive more than two or three bolter rounds, unlike a Termie, and so would really be better off not going with the grav hammer. Also note that you can blow up tanks with assault rifles in gameplay.

Raider
2008-05-26, 01:12 PM
Comeon guys it's Master Chief......MASTER CHIEF! This guy has plowed through thousands of hardened alien combatants on their own turf and when up against impressive vehicle resistance. This guy is a lone wolf and really good at it. Every single impossible situation in the game has left him the victor.

I dont care if it is because of plot armor, it still is badass. His radar could pick up the marine quite quickly and that would give him enough time to plan an ambush. Spartans are proficient in guerrilla warfare as seen in Ghosts of Onyx.

I'd give him the Spartan Laser hands down, his reaction times plus it's power=smoking crater where SM was.

Also as a backup I'd give him an invincibility power-up.........instapwn

Destro_Yersul
2008-05-26, 01:25 PM
Yeah, tell that to every terminator who'd rather carry a titan hammer than a power sword :smalltongue: That grav hammer can de-turret tanks in-game, unfortunately it has yet to make an appearance in any of the fluff that I've read.

Forgot to mention. Tartarus' grav-hammer, the Fist of Rukt, shows up in Halo: Contact Harvest. Too tired to look right now, but I think it's mentioned as being able to pulp skulls or something like that.

Stormthorn
2008-05-26, 01:46 PM
Lets look at that the SM has going for him. He is tough. Very tough. The Space Marines can survive horrific wounds and live for centuries. The age also gives them a lot of experiance.
Teh SM also has some bombin armor. Significantly better than a Spartans. He doesnt have an energy shield tho. Int he end they are probably close to equal with the SM's armor being slightly stronger. A standard weapons for space marines are bolters. They are built like machine guns so they probably fire a couple of rounds a second at least. Each one is .50+ caliber and explosive. The closest Halo equivalent is a brute shot.

Now for the spartan. Every spartan has a motion tracker built into their armor. They also move faster than space marines. They can sprint over 50kph without their strength enchancing armor on. Their standard weapons are more-or-less modern firearms. If the space marine is limited to a bolter then the Chief should probably be limited to his twin SMGs (in most artwork this is what he uses. Probably his favorite) and a BR. He is going to have trouble cracking the SMs armor. But he has much better reflexes than a space marine. He is capable of deflecting a rocket with his bare hands while in his suit.

Now, the Chief will probably notice the space marine first but SM's are much more aggressive. The Chief will probably assume he has found a human in a new kind of battle suit and make contant cautiously. The marine will know that the Chief isnt a marine. He will shoot the heritic first and ask questions later.

In a shootout the SM would probably win. If the Spartan got close enough to throw punches then his greater speed and reflexes would make him the favorite.

Now if ANY weaponry where allowed as opposed to just the signitures then we would have an interesting fight. The Marine would get a power fist and rip the spartans head off or the Spartan could get a laser cut the SM down.

warty goblin
2008-05-26, 01:48 PM
AHA! I finally have the power output of the Halo plasma rifle!

As previously stated, the manual lists it as 100-150kV, 2-3dA. kV was easy to figure, that's kiloVolts. dA elluded me for some time, but I finally got it, deci-Ampere, or one tenth of an ampere. The SI abbreviation for ampure is A, and deci is d, hence dA is deci ampures. This is still a weird ass way to write things, I just want to point out, but it is workable.

Now a Volt: 1V = 1 Watt/(1 Ampere).

Plugging in we get: 150,000V = W/.3A,

Solving for W: W = 150,000V x .3A

For a final power output of: 4,500 Watts, or 4,500 joules/second, or 4.5 kiloJoules (KJ)/second.

This isn't actually that much energy, particularly since it is nearly all thermal energy, plasma is after all a gas, and so will have negligable kinetic energy. This in fact just about the energy of striking four matches (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_of_magnitude_%28energy%29#103) per second. This is the core power output, so this doesn't include things like the energy to maintain the magnetic bottle to contain the plasma, or those blinky lights on the side.

Now my Halo: Combat Evolved manual also lists the plasma rifle as firing 420- 600 shots per minute, or about ten a second. That means that at maximum fire output our intrepid Astartes will have the weather the horror of .4 match ignitions per shot. Somehow I think he will survive.

Note: readers who followed my link will also note 1.2KJ is roughly the energy of an elephant gun as well. This however is, as I noted, fairly irrelevant, since plasma does not use kinetic energy to kill the target, but thermal energy, and the human body responds quite differently to thermal energy then it does kinetic, as anyone who has both burned themselves with a match and shot themselves with an elephant gun can testify.

Talkkno
2008-05-26, 02:31 PM
"We know bolter shells are about .75 calibre, so they are roughly 1.9 cm in diameter. The length of the shell appears to be roughly 3-4x the diameter as well, which would be around 5.7 and 7.6 cm. Judging by the cutaways of bolter shells, I'd estimate no more than half - more probably a third, of the internal volume is dedicated to explosive (the rest is propellant and casing.) The total volume of the shell would be roughly between 17 and 23 cubic cm by estimate, so the internal volume of the explosive is probably between 8-12 cubic centimeters (for half) and 6-8 cubic centimeters (for a third)

With the densities/REFs outlined above, we can figure on the shell containing some 10-25 grams of explosive. (Which would roughly make sense givne the shells probably mass between 50-100 grams, or about the size/mass of 12.7-20mm shell in real life.)

by real life explosive, this comes out to between 40 and 100 kilojoule for TNT, up to 113-283 kilojoules for ONC"
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=121975

Deathcow
2008-05-26, 02:48 PM
Now if ANY weaponry where allowed as opposed to just the signitures then we would have an interesting fight. The Marine would get a power fist and rip the spartans head off or the Spartan could get a laser cut the SM down.

Actually, it seems like using a powerfist against Master Chief = lose. Powerfists are ridiculously slow, and with MC's (apparently) crazy reflexes, I doubt he'd ever get hit.

If the SM had a power sword, well, that might be a different story.

LBO
2008-05-26, 02:48 PM
Are you trying to use physics AGAIN?

Destro_Yersul
2008-05-26, 03:00 PM
Bolter shells are said to use depleted deuterium as the core, though some people have said that this is kind of silly and it should probably be depleted uranium. The yield, I imagine, would be significantly higher than TNT.

Either way, I wouldn't want to be close to the Marine even with an energy sword. The sword has been stated (One of the novels) as unable to cut through the entirety of the MC's arm in one swing, so I doubt it'd go through a marine's. And if you hit a heart or a lung with it, well, he's got spares. in fact, with the insta-clotting blood as a bonus it'd be very hard to cause a fatal wound to a marine with an energy sword apart from the head area. Whereas a power sword, or even a chainsword, can and will sever limbs in one go, especially when the strength of a marine is behind the attack.

LBO
2008-05-26, 03:04 PM
Yeah, the deuterium thing is a typo Games Workshop have been kicking themselves over for a loooooong time. Cause, you know, it makes so much sense tipping armour-piercing bullets with hydrogen.

Stormthorn
2008-05-26, 06:27 PM
Now my Halo: Combat Evolved manual also lists the plasma rifle as firing 420- 600 shots per minute, or about ten a second. That means that at maximum fire output our intrepid Astartes will have the weather the horror of .4 match ignitions per shot. Somehow I think he will survive.

Keeping in mind that the covies have developed a way to turn .4 match ignitions into gaping burn wounds. Also, that your using the data for Halo 2.


Yeah, the deuterium thing is a typo Games Workshop have been kicking themselves over for a loooooong time. Cause, you know, it makes so much sense tipping armour-piercing bullets with hydrogen.

Well, if your shooting them fast enough you might get soem very impressive results from the fusion process.

Shooting them very very fast. I would also use tritium ice for the tip in that case.

GoC
2008-05-26, 09:02 PM
Ignoring what actually gets done to them, because thats kind of irrelevant

Huh?:smallconfused:
You're ignoring some WH 40K canon? Heresy!:smallfurious:

warty goblin
2008-05-26, 10:14 PM
Keeping in mind that the covies have developed a way to turn .4 match ignitions into gaping burn wounds. Also, that your using the data for Halo 2.


Um, what part of "My Halo: Combat Evolved manual" made you think I was talking about Halo 2? Also, don't the Covenent basically not invent,change or innovate particularly much? Hence it would seem a logical assumption that they don't go and create entirely new brands of weapons between games.

Turns out I got my prefixes mixed up, d stands for deca, which is 10^1, not deci. My original answer is off by exactly a hundred then, my apologies (to my credit, it was an extremely weird way to list the Amperage of the weapon, why not just say 20 - 30 like normal people?). So we could be looking at as many as 40 matches per shot, still ignoring the energy needed to actually ionize the gas, bundle it up in a magnetic field and then shoot it, not to mention waste heat.

This is a much more reasonable number. That is after all enough energy to do significant damage to flesh. It however is not enough energy to burn through even iron, which requires 340 kilojoules per Mole to vaporize (technically you could burn up just over a single Mole of iron I suppose, but a Mole of iron does not get you significant protection anyways, so this is pretty meaningless). Space Marine armor, being made of super hard futuristic ceramics will almost certainly have a much higher specific heat capacity than measly iron, as well as much lower heat conductivity, which would act to minimize burns due to the heating of the armor.

Bottom line, nice weapon, but I'll stick with the Bolter, which also blows people up nice and good, is longer range, and can be reloaded much more quickly.

Verruckt
2008-05-27, 01:48 AM
Um, what part of "My Halo: Combat Evolved manual" made you think I was talking about Halo 2? Also, don't the Covenent basically not invent,change or innovate particularly much? Hence it would seem a logical assumption that they don't go and create entirely new brands of weapons between games.

Turns out I got my prefixes mixed up, d stands for deca, which is 10^1, not deci. My original answer is off by exactly a hundred then, my apologies (to my credit, it was an extremely weird way to list the Amperage of the weapon, why not just say 20 - 30 like normal people?). So we could be looking at as many as 40 matches per shot, still ignoring the energy needed to actually ionize the gas, bundle it up in a magnetic field and then shoot it, not to mention waste heat.

This is a much more reasonable number. That is after all enough energy to do significant damage to flesh. It however is not enough energy to burn through even iron, which requires 340 kilojoules per Mole to vaporize (technically you could burn up just over a single Mole of iron I suppose, but a Mole of iron does not get you significant protection anyways, so this is pretty meaningless). Space Marine armor, being made of super hard futuristic ceramics will almost certainly have a much higher specific heat capacity than measly iron, as well as much lower heat conductivity, which would act to minimize burns due to the heating of the armor.

Bottom line, nice weapon, but I'll stick with the Bolter, which also blows people up nice and good, is longer range, and can be reloaded much more quickly.

Indeed, also, previous comments have gotten me thinking: A brute shot round is about the size of a fist and is all grenade, making it a bit larger than a heavy bolter round. Thusly a brute shot =/= bolter round. Still, I maintain this has **** all to do with the quality of weapons, as the OP gives chief the game winner for free: Cortana.

CORTANA

How many times do I need to address this? She has a truly insane amount of computing power. She has an encyclopedic knowledge of strategic and tactical data, simmilarly comprehensive knowledge of UNSC and Covenant weaponry, blah blah blah.

AM I GETTING THROUGH HERE?!?

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-27, 02:44 AM
Cortana?

POWER OF THE MACHINE SPIRIT!

*FSHZAM GURGLE
*fshzam gurgle*

Well, if we're using heroic Spartans, with names, who bring along other characters with names, can we use our equivalent?

Sliver_Slave
2008-05-27, 08:02 AM
Cortana?

POWER OF THE MACHINE SPIRIT!

*FSHZAM GURGLE
*fshzam gurgle*

Well, if we're using heroic Spartans, with names, who bring along other characters with names, can we use our equivalent?

Hmmm... Can Techmarines be in Full Terminator armour?

Destro_Yersul
2008-05-27, 08:07 AM
Yeah, Cortana kinda wins a lot. She doesn't know as much about the marine though, and her big advantage is the computing power (which was lessened during the time she carried around all the Halo data) and her Intrusion software (not so useful against a marine) The encyclopedic knowledge does not apply here, as the Marine would fall outside of anything she had come across before. Maybe strategy and tactics would help a bit...

warty goblin
2008-05-27, 10:59 AM
CORTANA


I never really thought Cortana did that much, at least in the game. I mean sure, she gave out non-optional fetch-quests, but it hardly takes a genius to do that.

Poison_Fish
2008-05-27, 01:05 PM
This thread needs more Marathon Marine. He'd mop up both master chief for being a more graphic enhanced knock off of himself, and the Space Marine, for being in the wrong universe.

I had to mention Marathon, 4 pages of halo without is unacceptable.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-27, 04:05 PM
I never really thought Cortana did that much, at least in the game. I mean sure, she gave out non-optional fetch-quests, but it hardly takes a genius to do that.

Again, read the book. She increased the MC's response time, provided tactical advice, and lots of other stuff.

Kane
2008-05-27, 04:34 PM
The fact is, Tippy, that I have very little respect for a game/game maker that fails to include the 'story' or plot in the game...

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-27, 04:38 PM
The fact is, Tippy, that I have very little respect for a game/game maker that fails to include the 'story' or plot in the game...

They did include the story and plot in the game. They just didn't include a lot of background and details. There is a whole book that takes place before Halo: Combat Evolved. It deals with the Spartans training and such, its where a lot of this info is coming from. Where should it have been included in the game (which is primarily a first person shooter)?

Sliver_Slave
2008-05-27, 04:41 PM
I say a regular marine couldn't take him, but a marine in Terminator armour with a storm bolter could.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-27, 04:45 PM
Indeed, also, previous comments have gotten me thinking: A brute shot round is about the size of a fist and is all grenade, making it a bit larger than a heavy bolter round. Thusly a brute shot =/= bolter round.

You're right, a brute shot - which, again, killed a spartan in two hits - is a terribly inefficient and low-tech version of a bolter. Basically its WORSE in ever way. Its bulkier, its slower firing, its rounds are bigger, and it packs as much if not less punch, and requires an arc to be effective. A bolter is better in every respect.


How many times do I need to address this? She has a truly insane amount of computing power. She has an encyclopedic knowledge of strategic and tactical data, simmilarly comprehensive knowledge of UNSC and Covenant weaponry, blah blah blah.

Her stacks 'o' data don't help for **** if she doesn't know anything about her opponents to begin with. I mean, she has all this data on USNC and Covenant tactics and weaponry, but how the **** does that help against an SM who has totally different weaponry and tactics? And really, it doesn't help if she can compute her way out of a plastic bag, if that plastic bag is a bodybag for MC, there's not a whole lot computing power will do for her.


AM I GETTING THROUGH HERE?!?

NO, BECAUSE DESPITE YOUR ALL CAPS, CORTANA IS NOT AN INSTA-WIN BUTTON.

Renegade Paladin
2008-05-27, 04:46 PM
*Sigh.* Why do I even bother...

Forget it. I'll stop trying to make my point or dare to defend the Spartans. 40k wins, always wins, yay, fap away!
It isn't like that, Sai. The SPARTANs are great for what they are; they're commandos, and really good ones. They're the best their technology base can produce.

Unfortunately, the Space Marines are the best their technology base can produce, and their tech base is far and away more advanced than the UNSC's. Furthermore, they're intended to be front-line combatants. SPARTANs are not. The Chief's armor is built for sneaking around, while a Space Marine's is designed to enable him to literally charge into a line of hellfire-spitting daemons and not only survive, but kill them all. Need I remind you what happens when the Chief charges straight at, say, Hunters without sneaking around to nail them in the back?

SPARTAN-IIs are good, and no one can take that from them. But this is out of their class. It's out of almost anybody's class Frankly, I don't see why people keep making vs. Space Marine scenarios; Space Marines are among the best combat infantrymen in any sci-fi universe, if not the very best. The very few sci-fi forces that can decisively defeat the Imperium of Man are so advanced as to not even depend upon land forces in the same way, i.e. the Culture. That's just the way it is, and it doesn't make any of the other sci-fi stories any less good stories, so I'm not sure why people get upset about it.

LordVader
2008-05-27, 04:53 PM
Assuming John knows about his opponent in advance, or gets an energy sword, I give it to the Spartan. His armour is lighter and much more delicate, but he's also MUCH faster and I'd be surprised if his initiative weren't significantly higher than the SM's in a fight. Also, John has plot armour.
That said, I think Spartans have an advantage in speed and reaction time. Also, one other advantage Spartans have over the Space Marines: Spartans are used to fighting odds far more overwhelming than the SM.

1) Not really. Space Marine power armor makes them pretty damn fast. And also, a power sword is more than a match for an energy sword, particularly considering that Space Marines are going to be skilled swordsmen, and Spartans are not.

2) Plot armor should never be included in any comparison of combat capabilities whatsoever. Plenty of 40k people have plot armor. Uriel Ventries, Marneus Calgar, Cypher, etc.

3) Speed, just maybe due to their lighter, inferior armor. Reaction time? No. Space Marines are far more enhanced than a Spartan in this regard.

4) During the Second War of Armageddon, a few hundred Blood Angels drop-podded into a horde of hundreds of thousands of Orks. There's a short story where thirty Space Marines are fighting thousands, if not tens of thousands, of rebels. Captain Shrike and a squad operated behind enemy lines for years, totally cut off. Space Marines are usually horribly outnumbered.

In regards to Cortana: She can't help with tactical advice against an unknown foe, and we are supposed to be comparing Generic Marine to Generic Spartan, right? I mean, if you're bringing Master Chief into it, it might as well be Shrike or Marneus Calgar against him, in which case, he's done.

In short: SPACE MARINES
Harder
Better
Faster
Stronger

'Nuff said. :smallwink:

Kane
2008-05-27, 04:59 PM
They did include the story and plot in the game. They just didn't include a lot of background and details. There is a whole book that takes place before Halo: Combat Evolved. It deals with the Spartans training and such, its where a lot of this info is coming from. Where should it have been included in the game (which is primarily a first person shooter)?

The HalfLife series is primarily a FPS, has a good plot, a backstory, and excellent atmosphere to go with said plot and backstory. :smallconfused:

But, relevant content so I'm not completely off track:, Computing power can be very helpful. If you had enough, you could compute the way the Universe works. However, don't you dare tell me Cortana is that good. She isn't; In this battle, it'd be a one on one fight between the MC and the SMurf. There would be no data-net or w/e to tap into, no electronics she could hack, no shipboard sensors she could tap into, and basically, all the computing power and data feeds she'd have would be contained inside her suit. That's all.

And a lot of that space she'd be able to use for computing would probably be filled up with maintaining her personality and memory and whatnot.

warty goblin
2008-05-27, 05:07 PM
They did include the story and plot in the game. They just didn't include a lot of background and details. There is a whole book that takes place before Halo: Combat Evolved. It deals with the Spartans training and such, its where a lot of this info is coming from. Where should it have been included in the game (which is primarily a first person shooter)?

Concievably in the tutorial. You know, have the character run an obstacle course to familiarize themselves with the movement, target practice for basic weapons, live-fire drill for health, and so on.

LBO
2008-05-27, 05:11 PM
And here we have a prime case of what happens when a playgrounder's favourite universe gets its butt kicked by universe x. They throw up their hands, dismiss x-likers as brainless fanboys (even when they're doing nothing more than citing their universe's fluff), and go away to sulk. They're usually then embittered against universe x, with a weird vicarious inferiority complex, because the fact that their super soldier is slightly less super than someone else's super soldier suddenly makes their whole universe SO MUCH WORSE. (Conversely, we also seem to have people who know lots of things that can beat x, trot them out all the time, and because of this act like x is crap franchise, eg Tippy. This is, if anything, even more childish.)

In all this, x seems to almost always be 40k.

So: Get over it. If x is 40k, embrace the GRIMDARK insanity for exactly what it is: stupidly over-the-top stuff from people who wanted to turn the dial up to a squillion on everything.

Goku could beat Sam Vimes up. WHO THE HELL CARES? Goku's a spiky-haired cross-eyed idiot from a crappy, crappy manga; Sam Vimes is Sam Vimes, and in my eyes a better character in every way imaginable (ymmv). I'll kill the first man who says 40k is anything like DBZ, but the point stands: versus threads have nothing to do with the quality of any particular universe, and getting het up over it (or a superiority complex about your universe being badass) is utter stupidity. It's when you start caring about vs threads as anything but a tongue-in-cheek comparison of fictional abilities that bad happens. Being serious and caring is bad. Invoking physics is right out.

tl;dr STOP IT, DAMN YOUR EYES. VERSUS THREADS ARE NOT SERIOUS BUSINESS.

Kane
2008-05-27, 05:38 PM
Don't get bitter. After all, obviously someone disagrees with you. (http://ipostr.com/pic-205-The-Internet)

I think this has been getting a little more heated than it deserves. This isn't a universe vs. universe thing, and nobody is going to end up less awesome, win or lose.

GoC
2008-05-27, 05:40 PM
Her stacks 'o' data don't help for **** if she doesn't know anything about her opponents to begin with. I mean, she has all this data on USNC and Covenant tactics and weaponry, but how the **** does that help against an SM who has totally different weaponry and tactics? And really, it doesn't help if she can compute her way out of a plastic bag, if that plastic bag is a bodybag for MC, there's not a whole lot computing power will do for her.
She can analyze the SMs armor in milliseconds, finding out all it's weak points and the capabilities of it's weaponry. She can also analyze how the marine moves and what his tactics are and come up with effective counters.
This is why you have sentient AI instead of the normal kind.

That said I'd still give this one to the Space Marine, if only because of the bolter.


Reaction time? No. Space Marines are far more enhanced than a Spartan in this regard.
I can't find that in the list of Space Marine enhancements.

Kane
2008-05-27, 05:58 PM
I disagree. I doubt she has the capability to analyze a completely unknown armor type, with no previous exposure to it's capabilities, and no knowledge of it's components, construction, or w/e.

That said, I agree. If it was in doubt, Cortana would probably swing it in MCs favor. However, theres a chance that he wouldn't even have her, and further, there's the fact that god fights on the side with the biggest guns. (Bolters.)

Also, as far as I can guess, the Spartan Laser is just a man-portable Lascannon. While nice, it gives a suggestion as to the relative capabilities of UNSC vs Imperium, in terms of tech.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-27, 06:00 PM
Note the Initiative stat:

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/3813/picture11yq3.png

85, which is pretty near the absolute peak that a human can achieve. For a basic space marine. Compare this to that of a trained, highly skilled soldier -

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/2769/picture12po6.png

Jayngfet
2008-05-27, 06:03 PM
Unfortunately, the Space Marines are the best their technology base can produce, and their tech base is far and away more advanced than the UNSC's. Furthermore, they're intended to be front-line combatants. SPARTANs are not. The Chief's armor is built for sneaking around, while a Space Marine's is designed to enable him to literally charge into a line of hellfire-spitting daemons and not only survive, but kill them all. Need I remind you what happens when the Chief charges straight at, say, Hunters without sneaking around to nail them in the back?


Which is why it's in a mountain forest, so the space marine can't just blow everything up, there's lot's of slopes and trees and rocks and maybe rivers, there is a chance that someone will miss, and lot's of places to hide, the space marine has heightened senses and speed, but so does the chief.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-27, 06:28 PM
Harder
Better
Faster
Stronger

'Nuff said. :smallwink:

You know that would make an awesome music video. Pictures of Space Marines, being compared to regular guardsman, set to that song. It would be awesome!

StGlebidiah
2008-05-27, 06:32 PM
So, there are two types of comparisons you can do here:

1) based off game mechanics

2) based off literary (which, in my opinion, all amounts to rampant fanyboyism on either side) sources

1: Game Mechanics

Because one plays as Master Chief in all the Halo games, we'll use him. The only real difference this makes is that he has that shield. And obviously, no respawns.

People are going to have problems with this because, well, it doesn't take into account things like improved strength and reaction speed. We can say that Master Chief is strong, because in the game it is possible to flip Warthogs (and I think tanks, but I can't remember doing so). However, his reaction speed is that of the player, and thus does not reach "super-human" levels. Also, unless those regular marines in Halo are running at super-human speeds, Master Chief is not sprinting at 50 km/h.

For the Space Marine, we can compare their in-game stats to those of an Imperial Guard conscript - the closest thing to default, untrained humans, and those of an Imperial Guardsman - a trained, non-superhuman soldier. Both have Strength and Toughness scores of three to the Space Marine's four. Both move at the same rate in-game. In terms of reflexes, characters have an Attacks score and an Initiative score. Both have one Attack, and the Guardsmen have an Initiative of three to the Space Marine's four.

It's hard to translate Master Chief's feats of strength into a WH Strength score, but I'm going to put it at at least five. In other words, Master Chief is stronger than the Space Marine, but no faster, and no better a shot.

Anyone who has played WH of any type knows the importance of the Toughness score. Marines have a toughness of four, greater than the strongest human - significantly greater. Master Chief's score can be deduced from the effects weapons have on him. A full shotgun blast in Halo will completely remove shields, and a second will kill the Chief. Shotguns exist in 40k, and are listed as Strength 3, AP -, Assualt 2 weapons (and yes, they use scattershot ammunition). On this basis, Master Chief's Toughness score is AT MOST three, if not lower. Also, his armour, being unable to stop shotgun blasts, is most definitely crappier than the Marine's 3+ save. Bolters, by comparison, the default weapon of the Marines, are Strength 4, AP 5, Rapid Fire weapons. This allows them to ignore an Imperial Guardsman's 5+ armour save, and wounds regular humans 2 out of 3 times.

Based on this comparison, I would say that the Marine would win every time. Even with the shields, Master Chief completely lacks the durability to stand up to a Space Marine's attacks, and his weapons are completely inferior.

And while using information provided by the games, we can rule out Cortana being an effective aid in a firefight. All she ever did was say, "Go there and kill stuff."

2: Literary Sources

I haven't read any of the books for either combatant. I'll leave this up to you guys, which you're already doing. But I don't give a fig for this method because any idiot can run out and write some story where his favourite character is the be-all, end-all of super-soldiering badassery, and everyone else who is a fan of said character will buy it and lap it up (heck, don't believe me, look at Star Wars!). In any case, everything I've read so far in this thread points to fluff comparisons leaving this as a draw at best, with whoever gets the drop having the better chance (note Marines have access to Auspex devices, which are basically hand-held short-range person-detectors, equalling the Spartan's short-range radar thingy).

Eita
2008-05-27, 07:04 PM
There is but one problem with your logic. You used base rules. If you're going to use rules, at the very least use the ones in Inquisitor.

Also, EVERYONE moves at the same speed in 40K unless they're a vehicle or in a vehicle or something.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-27, 07:18 PM
1) based off game mechanics

Which are, in general, flawed due to issues of balance for gameplay.


2) based off literary (which, in my opinion, all amounts to rampant fanyboyism on either side) sources

dismissing all the books on something as rabid fanboyism? I'm sorry someone liked the background enough to write a book about it :smallannoyed:


I haven't read any of the books for either combatant. I'll leave this up to you guys, which you're already doing. But I don't give a fig for this method because any idiot can run out and write some story where his favourite character is the be-all, end-all of super-soldiering badassery, and everyone else who is a fan of said character will buy it and lap it up (heck, don't believe me, look at Star Wars!).

See, this sort of annoys, because I want to write books about 40k, and I like books by 40k, and it sort of annoys me to have 40k fluff written off as "rabid fanboyism" just because they stick to the setting. And, whats more, you've never even READ the books, I mean I could say that all WWII novels are gross misinterpretations of fact, but I don't recall ever reading one, so my opinion isn't going to be worth much. And again, I like the books, and it pisses me off to have authors who's material I enjoy described as "just any idiot" and whats more, no any idiot CANNOT go off and just write books about it, it has to be approved for publishing by the company that owns the setting, so any books will be within their range of what is acceptable for the setting. And again, I don't know about any definitive statements from Halo, but the GW officials have come right out and said that, for purposes of gameplay and balance, game mechanics are a horrible representation of SM (and indeed, pretty much everything in the setting). And really, SW is a horrible example because its something that took the tried and true setting, and suddenly beefed it up a thousand times, until it was a bloated mass unrecognizable from its original form, whereas for Halo and 40k, the authors just took the formula accepted by the people who came up with the setting, and worked with it, because they liked it as it was.

And if this does sound like me taking this too seriously, I'm sorry but you struck a nerve :smallannoyed:

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-27, 07:19 PM
You're right, a brute shot - which, again, killed a spartan in two hits - is a terribly inefficient and low-tech version of a bolter. Basically its WORSE in ever way. Its bulkier, its slower firing, its rounds are bigger, and it packs as much if not less punch, and requires an arc to be effective. A bolter is better in every respect.
Basis? How do you know that a brute shot is weaker?


Her stacks 'o' data don't help for **** if she doesn't know anything about her opponents to begin with. I mean, she has all this data on USNC and Covenant tactics and weaponry, but how the **** does that help against an SM who has totally different weaponry and tactics? And really, it doesn't help if she can compute her way out of a plastic bag, if that plastic bag is a bodybag for MC, there's not a whole lot computing power will do for her.
You don't get it do you? Cortana can run through every possible course of action and decide which one has the best chance of success faster than you could think to ask her to do it. She has every bit of tactical and stragetic data and analysis that the UNSC has to draw upon.


NO, BECAUSE DESPITE YOUR ALL CAPS, CORTANA IS NOT AN INSTA-WIN BUTTON.
She is pretty close.


It isn't like that, Sai. The SPARTANs are great for what they are; they're commandos, and really good ones. They're the best their technology base can produce.

Unfortunately, the Space Marines are the best their technology base can produce, and their tech base is far and away more advanced than the UNSC's. Furthermore, they're intended to be front-line combatants. SPARTANs are not. The Chief's armor is built for sneaking around, while a Space Marine's is designed to enable him to literally charge into a line of hellfire-spitting daemons and not only survive, but kill them all. Need I remind you what happens when the Chief charges straight at, say, Hunters without sneaking around to nail them in the back?

SPARTAN-IIs are good, and no one can take that from them. But this is out of their class. It's out of almost anybody's class Frankly, I don't see why people keep making vs. Space Marine scenarios; Space Marines are among the best combat infantrymen in any sci-fi universe, if not the very best. The very few sci-fi forces that can decisively defeat the Imperium of Man are so advanced as to not even depend upon land forces in the same way, i.e. the Culture. That's just the way it is, and it doesn't make any of the other sci-fi stories any less good stories, so I'm not sure why people get upset about it.
Space Marines aren't that great. Good? Yes. Anywhere near the best ground infantry? No. A lot of their augments do nothing on a real battlefield. Their armor (if we could ever get a straight answer on its capabilities) and weapons are good, but no where near the best. Let's take a Pulser from the Honor Harrington series, it's better than a bolter in ever way. It has a faster rate of fire, larger clip, lower recoil, and is more powerful. That is a sidearm, not even a main weapon.

As for the very best, the Cadre beat them in nigh every category. They are just as strong, faster, have better reaction speeds, have better information capabilities, and have better tactics.

Is this the SM's fault? No. But they were designed by the Rule of Cool and with massed infantry charges in mind. The whole way that the 40K forces fight war is just flat out stupid. The SM's are very good at fighting in that way and under those constraints, but it doesn't change the utter insanity of the way they fight wars.


1) Not really. Space Marine power armor makes them pretty damn fast. And also, a power sword is more than a match for an energy sword, particularly considering that Space Marines are going to be skilled swordsmen, and Spartans are not.
Spartans in armor can run at 105 km/h out of armor they have been clocked at 50 km/h (and that was before their enhancements had fully taken hold). Spartans also have reflexes that are at least 3 times better than SM's. And MC's are even better than that. Their nerves physically send data faster than an SM's by a very wide margin. And in MC's case cortana handles it, MC's armor moves as fast as thought.


2) Plot armor should never be included in any comparison of combat capabilities whatsoever. Plenty of 40k people have plot armor. Uriel Ventries, Marneus Calgar, Cypher, etc.
Agreed, including plot armor is stupid.


3) Speed, just maybe due to their lighter, inferior armor. Reaction time? No. Space Marines are far more enhanced than a Spartan in this regard.
Um no. Evidence? A Spartans nervous system has been replaced with a mechanical one that sends data at light speed. No biological system can ever be that fast. So unless SM's get a similar replacement (which no one has provided any evidence of) they have slower reflexes. Spartans have been clocked with reaction times faster than a normal person can process the same data, and pre augmentation they were already the peak of non augmented reaction.


4) During the Second War of Armageddon, a few hundred Blood Angels drop-podded into a horde of hundreds of thousands of Orks. There's a short story where thirty Space Marines are fighting thousands, if not tens of thousands, of rebels. Captain Shrike and a squad operated behind enemy lines for years, totally cut off. Space Marines are usually horribly outnumbered.
So are spartans. Look at Halo 1 and Halo 2 for evidence of that. And the books for a lot more.


In regards to Cortana: She can't help with tactical advice against an unknown foe, and we are supposed to be comparing Generic Marine to Generic Spartan, right? I mean, if you're bringing Master Chief into it, it might as well be Shrike or Marneus Calgar against him, in which case, he's done.
Cortana is not an expert system. She is a fully sentient AI with all of the collected knowledge of strategy and tactics of the UNSC. She also has the processing power to run every possible scenario through and decide which has the best odds of success faster than you could ask her to do it. The OP also said MC vs. an average SM.


In short: SPACE MARINES
Harder
Maybe.

Better
Debatable

Faster
Flat out wrong.

Stronger
Possibly but mostly irrelevant.



But, relevant content so I'm not completely off track:, Computing power can be very helpful. If you had enough, you could compute the way the Universe works. However, don't you dare tell me Cortana is that good. She isn't; In this battle, it'd be a one on one fight between the MC and the SMurf. There would be no data-net or w/e to tap into, no electronics she could hack, no shipboard sensors she could tap into, and basically, all the computing power and data feeds she'd have would be contained inside her suit. That's all.

And a lot of that space she'd be able to use for computing would probably be filled up with maintaining her personality and memory and whatnot.
The Spartan armor does have that kind of memory and processing power. It has the equivalent of a ship's datanet. Why do you think the things cost as much as a battlecruiser?


And here we have a prime case of what happens when a playgrounder's favourite universe gets its butt kicked by universe x. They throw up their hands, dismiss x-likers as brainless fanboys (even when they're doing nothing more than citing their universe's fluff), and go away to sulk. They're usually then embittered against universe x, with a weird vicarious inferiority complex, because the fact that their super soldier is slightly less super than someone else's super soldier suddenly makes their whole universe SO MUCH WORSE. (Conversely, we also seem to have people who know lots of things that can beat x, trot them out all the time, and because of this act like x is crap franchise, eg Tippy. This is, if anything, even more childish.)
Actually no. I support the IoM and Warhammer 40K universe in a lot of vs. threads. As a whole the IoM is one of the most powerful human empires in Sci-Fi. It's just that individually its units are not the best.


Note the Initiative stat:

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/3813/picture11yq3.png

85, which is pretty near the absolute peak that a human can achieve. For a basic space marine. Compare this to that of a trained, highly skilled soldier -

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/2769/picture12po6.png
Yes, and Spartans had the fastest reflexes that it was possible for a human to achieve. Out of all the humans in the UNSC exactly 150 were found who had the base qualities to be Spartans, reflexs were included in that. And then from the age of 6 on they were put through the most rigorous program imaginable to increase those base traits. At the age of 13 they were superior to Olympic athletes in every category. And then they were augmented.

So take the absolute peak human reaction time and then triple it, that is a Spartan's reaction time. No one who uses biological nerves can ever equal them in that category.

Innis Cabal
2008-05-27, 07:20 PM
using base rules on a war game where balance is a major issues isnt going to help the thread at all

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-27, 07:24 PM
Basis? How do you know that a brute shot is weaker?

Actually, I said they were roughly equal, and the brute shot MIGHT be worse (but I don't have any proof at the moment, I haven't read a halo novel where they appear yet, so other than the "blow a spartan up in 2 shots" thing I've got nothing to work with) and of course, it doesn't make it weaker per se, but since its basically just a grenade (if I recall correctly) it has weaker penetration (or rather, none at all) whereas bolters, being as they are quite capable of going through armor (to various levels of success, depending on armor of course, SM can't just shoot up tanks with their bolters, even though that might work eventually do to sheer weight of fire, it would take awhile) have good penetration.

Kane
2008-05-27, 07:30 PM
Basis? How do you know that a brute shot is weaker?
*******
The Spartan armor does have that kind of memory and processing power. It has the equivalent of a ship's datanet. Why do you think the things cost as much as a battlecruiser?


A, Somone went over the volume of a bolter round here. Even with dynamite as the explosive, a bolter is certainly better.

B. I don't think it does. And anyway, even if it is, how good is a battlecruiser's data net?


Comparing this to Honorverse is right out, BTW. Niether Halo nor 40K use gravatic weaponry (What I understand a pulser is.). (aside from Grav-hammer, and it's kinda lame anyway. Best use is for blasting people off edges in multiplay, so you can hear them screaming.)

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-27, 08:10 PM
A, Somone went over the volume of a bolter round here. Even with dynamite as the explosive, a bolter is certainly better.
Um no. A brute shot round is larger than a bolter round. If filled with exactly the same explosive then the brute shot would be more powerful. Seeing as the armor penetration of a Bolter round doesn't matter (it will explode on the shield until the shield is down) then you are looking at the KE and explosive energy of both weapons. The Brute Shot almost certainly has a higher explosive energy while the bolter round almost certainly has a higher kinetic energy. How it balances out is unknown.


B. I don't think it does. And anyway, even if it is, how good is a battlecruiser's data net?
It's stated flat out at multiple points in the books. As for how good a battlecruisers data net is? Very good is a good place to start. The UNSC's computer tech is some of the best in all of Sci-Fi. The Systems Commonwealth is about the only polity I can think of with superior computer tech.


Comparing this to Honorverse is right out, BTW. Niether Halo nor 40K use gravatic weaponry (What I understand a pulser is.). (aside from Grav-hammer, and it's kinda lame anyway. Best use is for blasting people off edges in multiplay, so you can hear them screaming.)
I was commenting on something else, not anything to do with this thread specifically. Someone else claimed that SM's are the best infantry in all of Sci-Fi and that they have some of the most powerful weapons. I was pointing out a different universe with superior weapons.

Stormthorn
2008-05-27, 08:56 PM
Um, what part of "My Halo: Combat Evolved manual" made you think I was talking about Halo 2? Also, don't the Covenent basically not invent,change or innovate particularly much? Hence it would seem a logical assumption that they don't go and create entirely new brands of weapons between games.

Ok. So your source material is even more outdated than i thought. Im sorry. And they dont really change the brand of weapons, just what they do. I have two warhammer 40k rulebooks and one is a lot older than the other. I can attest that 40k does this sort of changing stuff around too.


And to the guy who posted about shotguns. Your assumeing that the 40k shotguns are the same power as the Halo shotguns. And you have to consider that at the average range along a Halo shotguns line of fire it would take more like five shots to kill a spartan. So that "toughness=3" theory doesnt pan out.

I like to look at it like this. The rounds for the halo 3 sniper rifle are 14.5mm. That means that a Spartan can survive a shot to the chest from a .57-56 cal armor piercing round. (http://youtube.com/watch?v=1vgJzfA9iWk)
Thats tougher than a normal man.

Kane
2008-05-27, 09:04 PM
Thats tougher than a normal man.

I figured I'd better jump while I have the opportunity.

A: What part of this thread made you think we had were talking about normal men? One is a cyborg-monster in a battle suit, and the other has four lungs, two hearts, and can take a bolter round unarmored and keep coming.

I also figure that the bolter, in terms of kinetic energy, is the same as a sniper rifle round, thanks to the 'jet' in 'gyrojet'.

On the subject of ridiculously awesome, it'd be cool if you could stick a computer on each bullet that would 'home' they gyro-jet rounds towards a target.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-27, 09:08 PM
I figured I'd better jump while I have the opportunity.

A: What part of this thread made you think we had were talking about normal men? One is a cyborg-monster in a battle suit, and the other has four lungs, two hearts, and can take a bolter round unarmored and keep coming.

I also figure that the bolter, in terms of kinetic energy, is the same as a sniper rifle round, thanks to the 'jet' in 'gyrojet'.

On the subject of ridiculously awesome, it'd be cool if you could stick a computer on each bullet that would 'home' they gyro-jet rounds towards a target.

They... have those. Bullets which home in one targets. I forget which one, but they were in an inquisitorial novel. They're.... exceedingly rare, from back in the pre-Heresy era, and so hard to get ahold of you either need to be an inquisitor, or the kinds of people who give inquisitors a run for their money.

Stormthorn
2008-05-27, 10:05 PM
A: What part of this thread made you think we had were talking about normal men? One is a cyborg-monster in a battle suit, and the other has four lungs, two hearts, and can take a bolter round unarmored and keep coming

the part up above where someone claimed the toughness of a Spartan was at most 3.

My argument is that a 3 is much too low because its more where a normal human soldier (well trained to handle wounds) would be at.

I only mention normal humans to point out that the Spartan is well beyond that. We already know a Space Marine is.

Hmm. Space Marine CAN take a bolter hit unarmored. Doesnt mean he will. He might very well keel over and die.
And the Sniper rounds are not the same power as bolter rounds. They can pas clean through the alloy and plastic armor of one spartan and into another. I dout either Spartans or SMs could take one of those armored and keep going unless it hit an extremity, which would then be lost.

warty goblin
2008-05-27, 10:13 PM
Ok. So your source material is even more outdated than i thought. Im sorry. And they dont really change the brand of weapons, just what they do. I have two warhammer 40k rulebooks and one is a lot older than the other. I can attest that 40k does this sort of changing stuff around too.

I like to look at it like this. The rounds for the halo 3 sniper rifle are 14.5mm. That means that a Spartan can survive a shot to the chest from a .57-56 cal armor piercing round. (http://youtube.com/watch?v=1vgJzfA9iWk)
Thats tougher than a normal man.

The changing of what they do would fall into the catagory of 'gameplay' which I believe was decided to be irrelevant. If anybody has evidence that suggests later generation plasma rifles exist and are in fact more powerful, I will happily alter my calculations. Until then however I think my numbers stand, since they are from a canon source that, as far as I know, has not been contradicted.

Also, as I previously stated, flechettes have poor terminal ballistics against, well, pretty much everything, since they are easy to deflect off of hard surfaces, don't tumble in soft ones, and generally fail to transfer much energy to the target. AP ammo is also generally not favored against soft targets since it tends to pierce, but not kill, again due to the terminal ballistics. It stands to reason that an AP flechette is good at poking holes in stuff, but less good at disrupting enough tissue to actually kill something- let alone a Space Marine which comes with extras of most vital organs.

Kane
2008-05-27, 10:51 PM
the part up above where someone claimed the toughness of a Spartan was at most 3.

My argument is that a 3 is much too low because its more where a normal human soldier (well trained to handle wounds) would be at.

I only mention normal humans to point out that the Spartan is well beyond that. We already know a Space Marine is.

Hmm. Space Marine CAN take a bolter hit unarmored. Doesn't mean he will. He might very well keel over and die.
And the Sniper rounds are not the same power as bolter rounds. They can pas clean through the alloy and plastic armor of one spartan and into another. I doubt either Spartans or SMs could take one of those armored and keep going unless it hit an extremity, which would then be lost.

Okay. Sorry. Completely misinterpreted you. My bad.


That said, I don't agree; I'd think that bolter rounds are worse than sniper rifle rounds. Not only do they A, explode, but a gyro-jet round is going to have fins, most likely, which will do a great job of shredding flesh on entry.

And a bullet that goes in and out isn't as bad as a bullet that goes in and explodes, or a bullet that goes in and bounces around inside. I am unconvinced.

Kane
2008-05-27, 10:53 PM
the part up above where someone claimed the toughness of a Spartan was at most 3.

My argument is that a 3 is much too low because its more where a normal human soldier (well trained to handle wounds) would be at.

I only mention normal humans to point out that the Spartan is well beyond that. We already know a Space Marine is.

Hmm. Space Marine CAN take a bolter hit unarmored. Doesn't mean he will. He might very well keel over and die.
And the Sniper rounds are not the same power as bolter rounds. They can pas clean through the alloy and plastic armor of one spartan and into another. I doubt either Spartans or SMs could take one of those armored and keep going unless it hit an extremity, which would then be lost.

Okay. Sorry. Completely misinterpreted you. My bad.


That said, I don't agree; I'd think that bolter rounds are worse than sniper rifle rounds. Not only do they A, explode, but a gyro-jet round is going to have fins, most likely, which will do a great job of shredding flesh on entry.

And a bullet that goes in and out isn't as bad as a bullet that goes in and explodes, or a bullet that goes in and bounces around inside. I am unconvinced.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-27, 11:09 PM
Okay. Sorry. Completely misinterpreted you. My bad.


That said, I don't agree; I'd think that bolter rounds are worse than sniper rifle rounds. Not only do they A, explode, but a gyro-jet round is going to have fins, most likely, which will do a great job of shredding flesh on entry.
1. We have no reason to believe that the sniper rifle rounds in Halo don't explode (we also have no reason to believe that they do).
2. The explosives aren't that important until after the round penetrates.
3. Gyrojet rounds do not work that way, at least real life ones. They don't have fins.


And a bullet that goes in and out isn't as bad as a bullet that goes in and explodes, or a bullet that goes in and bounces around inside. I am unconvinced.
Yes, but for the bullet to explode inside you it actually has to penetrate first. Against an unarmored target that isn't a problem, against a spartan it is.

1. Their shield defeats a lot of the force of a bolter round, it will explode outside of the armor.
2. Their armor (after the shield) is stated as being immune to most ballistic weapons (pretty much everything short of the Sniper Rifle and possibly even that). This makes penetration even harder.
3. There are lots of ways to make AP rounds that don't over penetrate. The newest is called blended metal rounds. Then there are High Explosive Armor Piercing Incendiary rounds which explode once inside and have some White Phosphorus in them which burns quite nicely.

Destro_Yersul
2008-05-28, 08:36 AM
Where does it say the armour is immune to most ballistic weaponry? I might have missed something, but I don't remember it ever saying that directly.

Besides, there are all those nice unarmoured seals around the joints. If a flood infection form's penetrator tentacle thingy can punch through those, a bolter sure as hell can.

Stormthorn
2008-05-28, 08:51 AM
That said, I don't agree; I'd think that bolter rounds are worse than sniper rifle rounds. Not only do they A, explode, but a gyro-jet round is going to have fins, most likely, which will do a great job of shredding flesh on entry.

Whats worse? Exploding, or ripping a large hole clean through someone with six inches of chest armor? Hard to say. The Snipe rround will definitly get through the armor a highe rpercentage of the time tho.

As for the fins. They arnt made for ripping and the sniper rounds actualy have fins too, although i didnt think they were significant enough to mention before.

I would like to stress that im not sure who would win, just that it would be one hell of a close fight. And im ignoring the effects of the chiefs super-human luck.

LBO
2008-05-28, 09:17 AM
In Horus Rising, Interex depleted-phlebotinum arrows go straight through Marines and out the other side, and barring headshots don't slow them down much. Too much organ redundancy and super-toughness.

GoC
2008-05-28, 10:41 AM
Actually, I said they were roughly equal, and the brute shot MIGHT be worse (but I don't have any proof at the moment, I haven't read a halo novel where they appear yet, so other than the "blow a spartan up in 2 shots" thing I've got nothing to work with) and of course, it doesn't make it weaker per se, but since its basically just a grenade (if I recall correctly) it has weaker penetration (or rather, none at all) whereas bolters, being as they are quite capable of going through armor (to various levels of success, depending on armor of course, SM can't just shoot up tanks with their bolters, even though that might work eventually do to sheer weight of fire, it would take awhile) have good penetration.
Basically the bolter is faster (and more accurate) with a better penetration rate but the brute has a larger warhead?
And the sniper has the best penetration, range and accuracy of all three.

Tippy: Can MC use the sniper like the guys on Halo2 Live used to?
If so then the Space Marine is deader than dead due to three sniper rounds through the head in under two seconds from 1000 meters away.

Destro_Yersul
2008-05-28, 01:11 PM
Can't snipe from 1000 meters away in a forest.

Stormthorn
2008-05-28, 05:02 PM
Too much organ redundancy and super-toughness

Perhaps. In terms of gametop rules your average SM will go down if one attack can pierce his armor and overcome his toughness.

The Halo sniper rifle would probably have the stats of what? An exitus rifle? Then each round would have a 42% chance of both hitting and wounding. So if he's lucky the space marine would survive two or three hits.
That is, using the 40k rules as the baseline here.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-28, 05:16 PM
Inquisitor rules are probably better, since they haven't been nerfed in order to make SMs a playable force.

There, they have a Toughness of ~150, compared to the human soldier average of 50 - this means that they can take, in arbitrary terms, three times as much damage, but, combined with heavy armour (which would equate -12 damage off each of the hits at them) and their faster health restoration rate (based on toughness), they are much harder.

Whoracle
2008-05-28, 05:45 PM
[...]A Spartans nervous system has been replaced with a mechanical one that sends data at light speed. No biological system can ever be that fast. So unless SM's get a similar replacement (which no one has provided any evidence of) they have slower reflexes. Spartans have been clocked with reaction times faster than a normal person can process the same data, and pre augmentation they were already the peak of non augmented reaction.[...]

This is complete and utter BS. Sorry to say, and I don't care nor dare to refute any of your other points, but THIS is where you're officially wrong.

First of all, I take it that you didn't mean "mechanical", you just mistyped. If not, quick primer:
MECHANICAL is when it's got gears and straps and moving parts. Moving parts would burn through friction if they even moved at a fraction of a normal human nervous system, plus it can't handle electrical impulses. You'd need something that conducts better than the nervous system. That would be doable, but by NO means, and I mean NO FLAMIN' MEANS IN BLOODY HELL is that happening mechanically.

Furthermore, if you'd want to achieve reflexes that fast, you don't just need a nervous system that transported the data with said speed, but you'd need

a) the means of processing the data that fast, and no computer system, existing or thinkable, can process data as fast as it would come in, so the much coveted cortana would rather be a bottleneck.
b) after the lightning-fast data has been processed, you'd need muscles that were able to con- and distract as fast needed. At the mentioned light speed MC would burn in his own armor due to friction.
c) There are certain physical limits as to how fast something can be accelerated in any given environment, ranging from vacuum to whatever is dense and still travelable. It doesn't matter if spartans have clocked in with about 50 / 105 km/h. Unless they don't race, its all about the time you need to get your arm/weapon/bulk/whatever from point A to point B, where the distance between A and B is comparably small. So, acceleration ratio is the key. IF the SM is capable of accelerating his arm faster than MC, MC's top speed doesn't mean ****. If not, well, SM is boned.


Thus ends my rant. I don't know nor care who would win, but please, for Light's sake, think before you write.

*walks away mumbling maniacly* Mechanical nerves faster than biological ones... no bloody idea how data transfer works... but yeah, MY homicidal murderboy-ubersoldier is better than yours... *mumble*

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-28, 06:11 PM
This is complete and utter BS. Sorry to say, and I don't care nor dare to refute any of your other points, but THIS is where you're officially wrong.

First of all, I take it that you didn't mean "mechanical", you just mistyped. If not, quick primer:
MECHANICAL is when it's got gears and straps and moving parts. Moving parts would burn through friction if they even moved at a fraction of a normal human nervous system, plus it can't handle electrical impulses. You'd need something that conducts better than the nervous system. That would be doable, but by NO means, and I mean NO FLAMIN' MEANS IN BLOODY HELL is that happening mechanically.

Sorry, I misspoke. It replaces it with an artificial system which transmits the data at light speed.


Furthermore, if you'd want to achieve reflexes that fast, you don't just need a nervous system that transported the data with said speed, but you'd need

a) the means of processing the data that fast, and no computer system, existing or thinkable, can process data as fast as it would come in, so the much coveted cortana would rather be a bottleneck.
Actually your brain is the bottleneck. What you are eliminating is the delay inherent in your nervous system, not increasing the speed of thought.


b) after the lightning-fast data has been processed, you'd need muscles that were able to con- and distract as fast needed. At the mentioned light speed MC would burn in his own armor due to friction.
Again, the gain is in the transmission phase, not the processing or executing phases. And MC's body (with Cortana and when in armor) doesn't actually move. Cortana tells the suit to move, which happens to move his body with it.


c) There are certain physical limits as to how fast something can be accelerated in any given environment, ranging from vacuum to whatever is dense and still travelable. It doesn't matter if spartans have clocked in with about 50 / 105 km/h. Unless they don't race, its all about the time you need to get your arm/weapon/bulk/whatever from point A to point B, where the distance between A and B is comparably small. So, acceleration ratio is the key. IF the SM is capable of accelerating his arm faster than MC, MC's top speed doesn't mean ****. If not, well, SM is boned.
Yes, and we know MC's acceleration rate, its superior to the SM's. MC has faster reflexes, that point isn't debatable until someone can show evidence of SM's having their nervous system replaced).


*walks away mumbling maniacly* Mechanical nerves faster than biological ones... no bloody idea how data transfer works... but yeah, MY homicidal murderboy-ubersoldier is better than yours... *mumble*
Sheesh, I misspoke. The point still stands. MC's artifical system is faster than the SM's natural system. All else being equal the transmission delay is eliminated for the Spartan and not for the SM.

Whoracle
2008-05-28, 06:37 PM
Yes, and we know MC's acceleration rate, its superior to the SM's. MC has faster reflexes, that point isn't debatable until someone can show evidence of SM's having their nervous system replaced).

And what is MCs acceleration rate, if I may ask?
After we skip the reflex thing (see below in the spoiler tags), all it comes down to is who is stronger/who can move the mass of his armor more efficient. And of course, whose armor will react faster. But MC wins the "fast armor contest", that's pretty much a given.
Sadly, neither his reflexes nor his Top Speed count. It's pure strength and acceleration rate.


Note: I keep bringing Cortana up here because someone mentioned earlier that she controls all of MCs morotical functions.

1. Brain/Cortana processes data at a specific rate. As long as the nerve data transfer rate (from now on called "ndta") is bigger as or equals the processing speed of the brain/Cortana, there is no benefit in increasing the NDTA. It is, in fact, quite a waste of ressources. Let me explain.

Nervous data transfer is a continuous stream, not a packet. If the stream surpasses what the brain can handle, the "latter part" of the stream gets caught in a waiting queue (mind, I don't know the right terminology for all this...).
The brain processes, let's say, 1 though/reflex per second.
Assume NDTA is 0.5r/sec, then the brain is idle, so here it would be good to increase it.
NDTA = 1r/sec: now it's the optimum. No queue, no need to override.
NDTA > 1r/sec: Here's the catch. Brain gets input, processes it, but the data has to "wait". If new data that overrides comes along, you get "packet collisions". That's why you sometimes don't catch a bottle when it falls: You were in the process of doing another thing, and the override wasn't fast enough.

Now, if nervous data transfer was packet based, it would be even worse, as you'd have to override complete packets in changing circumstances. E.g: SM walks to the right, MC thinks, SM will move one step further, and moves the barrel of his rifle along for the headshot. SM stops, so MC now has to override the "move oen step further"-packet that is lingering in the queue.

MCs best shot would be a NDTA that is completely geared to his brains processing speed. If he went with lightspeed nerves, he'd need a second supercomputer just to keep track of which packets/which part of the datastream is to be overridden and which not. So, waste of resources.

Stormthorn
2008-05-28, 07:22 PM
c) There are certain physical limits as to how fast something can be accelerated in any given environment, ranging from vacuum to whatever is dense and still travelable. It doesn't matter if spartans have clocked in with about 50 / 105 km/h. Unless they don't race, its all about the time you need to get your arm/weapon/bulk/whatever from point A to point B, where the distance between A and B is comparably small. So, acceleration ratio is the key. IF the SM is capable of accelerating his arm faster than MC, MC's top speed doesn't mean ****. If not, well, SM is boned.

One problem there. If the MC isnt around by the time the space marine can draw a bead then the speed at which he pulls the tirgger doesnt count for crap.

So you cant totaly discount the advanteges of being fleet of foot. Especialy in a wooded area where quick sprints can minimize your time out of cover very nicely.

Also, the SM cant accelerate their arms faster than a spartan. At least, its unlikely. They have those massive semi-decorative shoulder pads to contend with.


Also, has anyone mentioned field of vision yet? Unless our SM is one of the ones without a helmet (a serious disadvantage in terms of surviving bullet wounds) then his vision will be limited by the little eyeholes of his mask. The MC has a much wider visor that wrapes around part of his helmet to allow peripheral vision, which the SM wont have (probably an intentional design flaw with some religous connotation about not looking back or something)

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-28, 07:33 PM
And what is MCs acceleration rate, if I may ask?
After we skip the reflex thing (see below in the spoiler tags), all it comes down to is who is stronger/who can move the mass of his armor more efficient. And of course, whose armor will react faster. But MC wins the "fast armor contest", that's pretty much a given.
Sadly, neither his reflexes nor his Top Speed count. It's pure strength and acceleration rate.
We know that his in combat response time is under 20 milliseconds. As for stronger/moving the mass of their armor more efficiently. Chief wins that as well, as his armor is moving him when he is in it.



Note: I keep bringing Cortana up here because someone mentioned earlier that she controls all of MCs morotical functions.

1. Brain/Cortana processes data at a specific rate. As long as the nerve data transfer rate (from now on called "ndta") is bigger as or equals the processing speed of the brain/Cortana, there is no benefit in increasing the NDTA. It is, in fact, quite a waste of ressources. Let me explain.

Nervous data transfer is a continuous stream, not a packet. If the stream surpasses what the brain can handle, the "latter part" of the stream gets caught in a waiting queue (mind, I don't know the right terminology for all this...).
The brain processes, let's say, 1 though/reflex per second.
Assume NDTA is 0.5r/sec, then the brain is idle, so here it would be good to increase it.
NDTA = 1r/sec: now it's the optimum. No queue, no need to override.
NDTA > 1r/sec: Here's the catch. Brain gets input, processes it, but the data has to "wait". If new data that overrides comes along, you get "packet collisions". That's why you sometimes don't catch a bottle when it falls: You were in the process of doing another thing, and the override wasn't fast enough.

Now, if nervous data transfer was packet based, it would be even worse, as you'd have to override complete packets in changing circumstances. E.g: SM walks to the right, MC thinks, SM will move one step further, and moves the barrel of his rifle along for the headshot. SM stops, so MC now has to override the "move oen step further"-packet that is lingering in the queue.

MCs best shot would be a NDTA that is completely geared to his brains processing speed. If he went with lightspeed nerves, he'd need a second supercomputer just to keep track of which packets/which part of the datastream is to be overridden and which not. So, waste of resources.
Whatever the processioning rate is is irrelevant. The execution rate is likewise irrelevant. Why? Because the SM has no augmentations that improve either and whether or not MC does is unknown. What is relevant is the data transmission speed, currently the slowest part of the process.

For you to see something, process it, and tell your hand to pull a trigger, involves 2 transmission trips. The first is the eyes to the brain, a negligible length, and the second is the brain to the hand. That second transmission trip is where MC gets his advantage. The nerve impulses in an unaugmented human travel at about 250 miles per hour. For a nerve impulse to travel from your brain to your finger (a distance of about 3 feet) takes .0081 seconds or 8.1 milliseconds. It takes MC 1/3 the time, or 2.7 milliseconds. Thats without armor. With armor the "nerve impulse" travels at light speed. Why? Because Cortana is interfaced directly into both MC's brain and his armor. She can literally read his mind. So when MC's brain decides to pull the trigger Cortana sends a signal to that finger of the armor, telling it to contract. That signal is sent at the speed of light.

With Cortana and when in armor, the Chiefs body ceases to matter. The armor is moving him, not the other way around.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-28, 07:35 PM
Also, has anyone mentioned field of vision yet? Unless our SM is one of the ones without a helmet (a serious disadvantage in terms of surviving bullet wounds) then his vision will be limited by the little eyeholes of his mask. The MC has a much wider visor that wrapes around part of his helmet to allow peripheral vision, which the SM wont have (probably an intentional design flaw with some religous connotation about not looking back or something)

He also has sensors all around his suit and the radar tracker. He wins the information war.

Kane
2008-05-28, 08:05 PM
'He' doesn't use most of those sensors, and the SM has an equivalent someone mentioned earlier.

That said, Tippy, you missed the point; getting information that quickly doesn't help the chief because he can't process it that quickly. His brain is still the same gray matter you use. Or I, or the SM. (Well, Maybe.) It can only process so much information at once, and decide to send out the information, and then Cortana can shave off eight and a half milliseconds. Which doesn't really matter; by the time he does that, shoots, and (let's say,) miraculously kills the SM, the SM can have done the same thing and fired. And his rounds will already be in the air by the time the MC could kill him.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-28, 08:18 PM
'He' doesn't use most of those sensors, and the SM has an equivalent someone mentioned earlier.

That said, Tippy, you missed the point; getting information that quickly doesn't help the chief because he can't process it that quickly. His brain is still the same gray matter you use. Or I, or the SM. (Well, Maybe.) It can only process so much information at once, and decide to send out the information, and then Cortana can shave off eight and a half milliseconds. Which doesn't really matter; by the time he does that, shoots, and (let's say,) miraculously kills the SM, the SM can have done the same thing and fired. And his rounds will already be in the air by the time the MC could kill him.

Not really. Cortana does filter that excess information, which she can do far faster than a human. And even if she didn't, the chief would still win's. The peak human reaction time, from seeing a target to pointing, aiming, and pulling the trigger is about 30 milliseconds. Thats with people who can aim and fire by instinct and don't need to consciously aim. The average spartans time is under 20 milliseconds and it gets faster in combat. All the chief has to do is think target, kill and Cortana does the rest. She is the one doing the aiming, moving his arm, pulling the trigger, etc.

About a third of the reaction time is taken up in transmission. That is the part the Spartans eliminate. And as for the SM firing before the bullet hits him, at a muzzle velocity of 1000 meters/second that 8 milliseconds equals 8 meters of travel, so if the SM is within 8 meters he won't fire before the Chief's shot hits him.

Eita
2008-05-28, 08:37 PM
Tippy... You realize what you're saying..? His armor is moving him. Really quickly. There are obvious drawbacks. Especially if he isn't ready to move in that direction.

Kane
2008-05-28, 08:41 PM
Not really. Cortana does filter that excess information, which she can do far faster than a human. And even if she didn't, the chief would still win's. The peak human reaction time, from seeing a target to pointing, aiming, and pulling the trigger is about 30 milliseconds. Thats with people who can aim and fire by instinct and don't need to consciously aim. The average spartans time is under 20 milliseconds and it gets faster in combat. All the chief has to do is think target, kill and Cortana does the rest. She is the one doing the aiming, moving his arm, pulling the trigger, etc.

[Citation Needed]


About a third of the reaction time is taken up in transmission. That is the part the Spartans eliminate. And as for the SM firing before the bullet hits him, at a muzzle velocity of 1000 meters/second that 8 milliseconds equals 8 meters of travel, so if the SM is within 8 meters he won't fire before the Chief's shot hits him.

Chances are that if the SM is within eight meters, he can survive long enough to chainsword the Chief into pulp.


And on another topic, what is the chief fighting for? As far as I know, (aside from the persuasive value of the Covenant trying to kill him.) he has no particular reason to fight for the UNSC, does he?

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-28, 08:44 PM
Tippy... You realize what you're saying..? His armor is moving him. Really quickly. There are obvious drawbacks. Especially if he isn't ready to move in that direction.

Yes, it does have drawbacks. Ones so bad that any non Spartan in the stuff gets broken into little bitty pieces. Even the regular Spartans (without Cortana) have their suits doing the moving.

The only reasons they can survive it are as follows:
1) Their nervous system has been drastically sped up to the point where the signal to the suit to move the arm and the single to the arm to move are equally fast. The Spartan's muscles respond to said signal slower but they are moving with the suit.

2) Their bones can't break.

3) Their muscles have been drastically improved.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-28, 08:46 PM
[Citation Needed]
For which part?


Chances are that if the SM is within eight meters, he can survive long enough to chainsword the Chief into pulp.
You mean the Chief that is faster is every category? MC can just kite the SM to avoid melee range.


And on another topic, what is the chief fighting for? As far as I know, (aside from the persuasive value of the Covenant trying to kill him.) he has no particular reason to fight for the UNSC, does he?
He fights who and what the UNSC tells him to fight.

Stormthorn
2008-05-28, 08:47 PM
That said, Tippy, you missed the point; getting information that quickly doesn't help the chief because he can't process it that quickly. His brain is still the same gray matter you use. Or I, or the SM. (Well, Maybe.) It can only process so much information at once, and decide to send out the information, and then Cortana can shave off eight and a half milliseconds. Which doesn't really matter; by the time he does that, shoots, and (let's say,) miraculously kills the SM, the SM can have done the same thing and fired. And his rounds will already be in the air by the time the MC could kill him.
The MC doesnt have the same gray matter as us. He can react to stimulus somewhere between five and ten times faster than the normal human soldier.


And on another topic, what is the chief fighting for? As far as I know, (aside from the persuasive value of the Covenant trying to kill him.) he has no particular reason to fight for the UNSC, does he?
He fights for the same reason the origional Spartans did. he was raised froma very young age to do so.


Also, as for the "information war". Are you telling me that the SM's unspecified sensors can somehow make up for him having tunnel vision?

Or that the MCs personal supercomputer AI still doesnt give him the edge over those magical sensors that can replace vision?

Space Marines are almost certainly tougher, especialy without the suits, but the SPartans have the advantage in speed and information.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-28, 08:51 PM
The MC doesnt have the same gray matter as us. He can react to stimulus somewhere between five and ten times faster than the normal human soldier.

Actually no. His gray matter hasn't been messed with, its his nerves transmission rate that has been messed with. His reaction speed has been improved by over 300%. With Cortana included he does indeed process data faster.

Kane
2008-05-28, 08:54 PM
Bull. Of course their bones will break. ANYTHING will break, with enough force.

Please define kite. (Heard it used about WoW, don't actually play WoW, so don't know what it means.)

I'd rather like some citing for your whole 'cyborg nervous system' thing. Emperor Tippy and Stormthorn.



And... Why doesn't the MC just say "F*** it, I don't want to die today?", and not fight? Does he have a terminal lack of initiative, or... what?

EDIT: Missed Tippy's latest post, and some of Stormthorns.

What is the information war going to do? I suppose Cortana can, after some exposure to the SMs weapons, tell the MC exactly how they can kill him, but that isn't exactly useful. I mean, I could figure that out, after watching them.

Stormthorn
2008-05-28, 08:56 PM
Actually no. His gray matter hasn't been messed with, its his nerves transmission rate that has been messed with. His reaction speed has been improved by over 300%. With Cortana included he does indeed process data faster.

Sorry. Your right. And for the guy who wants me to cite. I will do so if i can still find the material.

Destro_Yersul
2008-05-28, 09:07 PM
Also, as for the "information war". Are you telling me that the SM's unspecified sensors can somehow make up for him having tunnel vision?

SM don't have Tunnel vision. Those 'tiny little lenses' are cameras of a sort. Have a look at the start up video for Dawn of War: Dark Crusade. Space Marines get a HUD, targeting information, all that kind of thing.

And before you ask, Yes DoW is canon.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-28, 09:16 PM
Bull. Of course their bones will break. ANYTHING will break, with enough force.
Sure, with enough force. That amount is far higher than anything that will be brought to bare.


Please define kite. (Heard it used about WoW, don't actually play WoW, so don't know what it means.)
Running around an enemy while you attack him so that you stay out of his reach. An SM will never get into melee range of any Spartan unless the Spartan allows him there, and Spratan's don't like melee combat.


I'd rather like some citing for your whole 'cyborg nervous system' thing. Emperor Tippy and Stormthorn.


5. Superconducting fabrication of neural dendrites: Alteration of bioelectrical nerve transduction to shielded electronic transduction. Three hundred percent increase in subject’s reflexes. Anecdotal evidence of marked increase in intelligence, memory, and creativity. Risk: significant instances of Parkinson’s disease and Fletcher’s syndrome.
And thats the last time I am providing that quote.



# Capable of running at speeds exceeding 55 KPH (34.155 MPH). SPARTAN-087 was capable of running faster than the rest. Later on, SPARTAN-117 runs at around 105 KPH (65.205 MPH) during a MJOLNIR MARK V training exercise (same book, different pages).
# Capable of lifting three times their body weight due to increased muscle density.
# Virtual night vision.
# Reaction times of 20 milliseconds. Significantly faster in combat situations.
# Capable of unprecedented teamwork that resembled "telepathy".
# No physiological or mental instabilities

And from the Halo wiki (condensed from multiple conversations in Halo: The Fall of Reach).

These current results were only a few months after augmentation, CPO Mendez himself (spartans instructor) said that the Spartans will only get better as they adjust to the augmentation. Therefore the only true one is that the Spartans can exceed speeds of 55 KPH (34.155 MPH). These abilities were completely independent of the MJOLNIR armor, which only further augmented the Spartans' unprecedented capabilities.


And... Why doesn't the MC just say "F*** it, I don't want to die today?", and not fight? Does he have a terminal lack of initiative, or... what?
No, MC has initiative but he will obey orders. So assuming that he is ordered to fight he will, assuming he doesn't have any relevant orders then he will avoid the SM unless he believes that he can take the SM without significant risk.

Rayzin
2008-05-28, 09:24 PM
As i recall, a bolter round goes into someones and then blows up right? I doubt those wussy AR rounds,that don't blow up, or do much more than a more powerful M16A2 could do.

Also Spartans aren't the only improved ones, thinking that Space marines actually have 19 new organs that give it many advantages.

Shots to vital areas dont make a difference, Space marines never get tired, even if a round did get through his amour it would clot over in a couple seconds. Space marines can, as i learned from the every playgrounder vs a space marine thread, kill 6 people in 3 seconds, and these are trained soldiers. In any fluff i have read master chief has not gone without grenades or some sort of heavy ordnance and taken out six people in three seconds.

Destro_Yersul is right, the helmet doesn't narrow vision, it makes it larger. It also has the added advantage that they have radar, IR, and crap like that.

Rayzin
2008-05-28, 09:30 PM
Also is this MC thats fighting because hes the strongest Spartan. So lets pit him against the strongest Space Marine like a patriarch, or in fact the emperor! It will take 5 seconds to use the warp to crush MC.

Kane
2008-05-28, 09:31 PM
Well, as far as I can tell, the spartans have a large advantage in speed, but they can do minimal damage to a SM (Unless the fool isn't wearing his helmet.).

Thier weapons and armor are on such a low tech base (comparatively) that the SM isn't likely to be hurt (Though, of course, with persistence, he can.)

From what I can tell, you're saying that the MC is fast enough that he isn't likely to be hit.

So... The MC has to wear the SM down with wounds every now and then, and not get hit. The SM has to get a lucky shot before he dies of terminal perforation.

I'd vote for the SM just because he has to get lucky once, where as the chief has to get lucky and stay lucky for the entirety of the fight, not counting him actually getting stuff through the SMs armor.

Also, remember that the SM's armor amplifies his reaction speed too. I'm not saying it's as fast as the MC, but it's probably around 25 milliseconds, max.

Stormthorn
2008-05-28, 09:34 PM
Ok. So, citing. In Fall Of Reach the Spartans recieve some sort of superconducting fiber enchancment to their nerves. The projection is a 300 percent increase in reaction time with a possible (but unproven) increase in intelligence and memory.

The actual increase was a lot faster. Spartans without armor in a non-combat situation have a reaction time of 20 milliseconds. The normal human has an average mean reaction time for their different senses at .2 seconds. Thats one fifth of a second versus 1/50 th of a second.

Spartans are also strong enough that the accidentaly killed multiple trainers during hand-to-hand combat drills. They can lift six times the average human body weight when unarmored.

Now would be a good time to point out that a Mark I suit lets a normal person lift up to two tones. Spartans dont wear Mark I's so they arnt amplified as much (mark I's where very cumbersome and power draining). They can lift (with their first and oldest suits of armor) twice as much as normal. Thats twelve times the weight of a normal person. Humans in the same suits that the Spartans first use can also react seven times faster.

Spartans can also sprint at 55 kph for short distances when not in a suit.

MAster Chief described a normal human soldeirs movement (after recieving both a suit and Cortana) as being in slow motion. He can also shatter a femur or crush a ribcage with a single blow.

The Chief can also deflect an anti-tank rocket with his hands, in a suit several generations old.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-28, 09:38 PM
Well, as far as I can tell, the spartans have a large advantage in speed, but they can do minimal damage to a SM (Unless the fool isn't wearing his helmet.).

Thier weapons and armor are on such a low tech base (comparatively) that the SM isn't likely to be hurt (Though, of course, with persistence, he can.)

From what I can tell, you're saying that the MC is fast enough that he isn't likely to be hit.

So... The MC has to wear the SM down with wounds every now and then, and not get hit. The SM has to get a lucky shot before he dies of terminal perforation.

I'd vote for the SM just because he has to get lucky once, where as the chief has to get lucky and stay lucky for the entirety of the fight, not counting him actually getting stuff through the SMs armor.
See, I don't know whether or not any Halo weapons (short of the rocket launcher or spartan laser) can harm a Space Marine. In one book Grey Knights (superior to bog standard SM's in every way including tech) in armor are killed by arrows. In another they can apparently take several thousand hits from an antivehicular machine gun and weren't even bruised.

So if MC has weapons that can harm the SM then he wins, if he doesn't then he runs away for a while and the SM wins because it can go longer without food.


Also, remember that the SM's armor amplifies his reaction speed too. I'm not saying it's as fast as the MC, but it's probably around 25 milliseconds, max.
That 20 millisecond reaction time is the Spartan out of armor and right after enhancement. In combat and in armor it's prolly half that or faster. Oh and evidence that SM armor descreases reaction times?

Rayzin
2008-05-28, 09:38 PM
It doesn't matter how fast a person is, a bullet is faster. But spraying it at the person over and over again helps. Unless Master Chief can do the matrix thing he will die in one shot most likely.

Innis Cabal
2008-05-28, 09:44 PM
all the points save reaction time you just made Stormthorn, the SM can also do, if not better. It has been noted that an SM can take sustained autocannon(This is WH40k autocannon) fire, while an exception, not the norm, get stepped on a titan which dwarfs scarabs and anything else the Covies fielded, get bitten on by Carnifix's, blasted by bolter rounds which -are- better then bruteshots and keep moving. Their armor is plain better. The Spartan has speed, and -possilby- intelect going for him, maybe. But also read the side affects of the re-wiring, its not just a possible increase with parkinsons and alztimers, its a -significant- increase, and with those diseases a significant anything is not a good thing. Where as all the biomods to the SM has only given him the ability to fight and live for centuries. The SM, even a low ranking one, has more experiance against much much scarier foes. The Covies are not mind raping terrors, they are fanatics. They are Tau, thats what they are. And the Tau are in the SM's eyes, filthy filthy xenos. An SM with a multi-melta and a power sword would finish the fight if the Spartan got to close.

Kane
2008-05-28, 09:50 PM
Ok. So, citing. In Fall Of Reach the Spartans recieve some sort of superconducting fiber enchancment to their nerves. The projection is a 300 percent increase in reaction time with a possible (but unproven) increase in intelligence and memory.

*********
The Chief can also deflect an anti-tank rocket with his hands, in a suit several generations old.

Those are both so over the top that they're almost 40K-esque...

A: I'll buy that they've had their spinal column replaced with some synthetic. Fine. Ridiculous, but as a 40K fan, me pointing that out would be a serious pot/kettle/black moment.

But all their nerves? WTF? Seriously, that would be a decent percentage of your body. AND, there's the fact that their muscles would have to be similarly enhance with some conductive, contracting, material for thier muscles to be 'improved'.


B: I think I prefer the general background of over-the-top rather than occasional instances of it. WH40K has chainsaw swords, void grenades, and Hell used as hyperspace. Halo, the MC can catch a rocket.

Say, does this mean that Elites can do this too? Because, you know, I've always heard that Spartans and Elites are equals..?

EDIT: Innis Cabal's post.

They are Tau, thats what they are. And the Tau are in the SM's eyes, filthy filthy xenos.

That hurt, man. :smallfrown:

And, I think for the sake of this thread, the battle isn't going to last long enough for the MC's increased chances of Parkinson's disease and stuff to matter. Though, I think I'd prefer to be an SM rather than a Spartan.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-28, 09:50 PM
all the points save reaction time you just made Stormthorn, the SM can also do, if not better. It has been noted that an SM can take sustained autocannon(This is WH40k autocannon) fire, while an exception, not the norm, get stepped on a titan which dwarfs scarabs and anything else the Covies fielded, get bitten on by Carnifix's, blasted by bolter rounds which -are- better then bruteshots and keep moving.
Evidence?


Their armor is plain better. The Spartan has speed, and -possilby- intelect going for him, maybe. But also read the side affects of the re-wiring, its not just a possible increase with parkinsons and alztimers, its a -significant- increase, and with those diseases a significant anything is not a good thing.
The sideeffects are irrelevant as none of the Spartans approved for combat ops has any of them.


Where as all the biomods to the SM has only given him the ability to fight and live for centuries. The SM, even a low ranking one, has more experiance against much much scarier foes. The Covies are not mind raping terrors, they are fanatics. They are Tau, thats what they are. And the Tau are in the SM's eyes, filthy filthy xenos. An SM with a multi-melta and a power sword would finish the fight if the Spartan got to close.
After a point more experience doesn't matter. Most of the benefits of experience are ones that the Spartans already have.

And as I have stated multiple times, over 2/3's of the SM enhancements do not matter at all in any way. And of those that do the Spartans have the same or better ones in over half the cases.

The ability to spit acid, for instance, is worthless when you are wearing a helmet in power armor. The poison extraction and hostile environment mods are likewise irrelevant when in power armor.

Rayzin
2008-05-28, 09:56 PM
A brute shot has a 4 shot clip. They shoot grenades. They're slow, and you have to reload them really often.

A Boltgun has 24 shots, and shoot explosive rounds that are more powerful than frag grenades. These are Warhammer grenades by the way so don't think about comparing them to the brute shot ones. They're fast, you reload them after 12 2 shot bursts.

Proof that boltgun does more than a gernade is, that in dark heresy a gernade does something like 1d10+3, while a boltgun does 1d10+5 and it penetrates armour.

Innis Cabal
2008-05-28, 09:57 PM
None of their enhancments are irrelevent. There is a point when fighting your armor gets dented, cracked open and you are exposed to the world outside. Its good to know you can survive radiation. What happens if you get your helmet ripped off? Well looks like you have another avenue to attack from, your frickin spit. They can eat rocks if the need comes up. I'd call that helpful when you have nothing on hand but that and nothing. So as far as a war of attrition goes, the SM has got John beat.

On the parkinsons disease. Yes that does matter, so they dont have them in the game? Who wants to play a spazzing forgetful super soldier? No one, does it matter for this debate where we are putting the two side by side for comparison? Yes, because its a severed flaw in their ability to Biomod. If you had the ability to do it and do it well there wouldnt be a -significant- side effect of late term brain disease.

Also ive seen in alot of posts that the bolter is a better equivelent to the brute shot. But honestly, its not their best weapon, and if the Spartan gets to chose what weapons he gets so to does the SM. The tech level of WH40K is better then Halo. There is no way you can refute that. Black hole grenades, etc.

The Covies dont even know how to use their weapons to their fullest, and most are forerunner tech, not their own. Your telling me that things like the Eldar, the Tau, and the Necrons have worse tech then imitation and not fully utilized weapons? Sorry im not buying that for one minute.

Kane
2008-05-28, 09:59 PM
Evidence?
After a point more experience doesn't matter. Most of the benefits of experience are ones that the Spartans already have.

And as I have stated multiple times, over 2/3's of the SM enhancements do not matter at all in any way. And of those that do the Spartans have the same or better ones in over half the cases.

The ability to spit acid, for instance, is worthless when you are wearing a helmet in power armor. The poison extraction and hostile environment mods are likewise irrelevant when in power armor.

Bull-Effing-****. Doesn't matter how long you've been around; in the big wide universe, there's always one more trick you haven't learned, or a move you haven't seen yet.

As for that, YES, CORRECT. Many of the SMs enhancements improve the SMs general survivability, be he, Emperor forbid, captured, or maybe his suit is damaged, (Never happens to the chief, but it can still happen...) or whatever.

Howeevr, he does have something along the lines of three times the enhancements as the Chief. Plus, there is something to be said for giving your expensive SuperSoldier some extra survivability.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-28, 10:07 PM
Bull-Effing-****. Doesn't matter how long you've been around; in the big wide universe, there's always one more trick you haven't learned, or a move you haven't seen yet.

True, but that isn't the big benefit of experience. It's real benefit is keeping calm, knowing how to get the fullest use out of your gear, and less conscious analyzing of information. The first and second are covered by training and the experience the Spartans have and the last is eliminated in MC's case thanks to Cortana and is also reduced for the other Spartan's (11 years of straight training plus over 10 years of continuous combat).


As for that, YES, CORRECT. Many of the SMs enhancements improve the SMs general survivability, be he, Emperor forbid, captured, or maybe his suit is damaged, (Never happens to the chief, but it can still happen...) or whatever.
Yes they do, but again, it doesn't improve their combat capabilities.


Howeevr, he does have something along the lines of three times the enhancements as the Chief. Plus, there is something to be said for giving your expensive SuperSoldier some extra survivability.
Sure, they have 3 times the number of enhancments but again, most of them (while improving survivability) do not improve combat capability by any noticeable amount.

Stormthorn
2008-05-28, 10:08 PM
A: I'll buy that they've had their spinal column replaced with some synthetic. Fine. Ridiculous, but as a 40K fan, me pointing that out would be a serious pot/kettle/black moment

I think both universes rely upon the Rule Of Cool in place pf physics. Although the 40k universe goes way way over the top with it. They have people who can manipulate the power of what is more or less hell.

And also, Void Grenades do beat Plasmas any day, but if we wanted to over the top then a Spartan could overload his own suit and just nuke the whole combat zone. What average Space Marine (even allowed to choose his own equipment) is going to have freakin void grenades? Why dont we just put the SM in a blackstone fortress and give the Spartan a Halo ring while we are at it?


Proof that boltgun does more than a gernade is, that in dark heresy a gernade does something like 1d10+3, while a boltgun does 1d10+5 and it penetrates armour.
*choke*
You do realize that grenades can only deliver so much of their force to any one target? And that bolter rounds penetrate first? And that explosions inside something tend to have nasty side effects on soft tissue?
Of course it does more damage than a frag.
That being said, people have been next to frag grenades and not been injured beyond ruptured eardrums before. I doubt anyone has stood in front of, say, a 30mm anti-aircraft cannon's barrel and said the same after it fires. Grenades are not releable weapons unless you can garantee the shrapnel will enter someone or that a limb will be over the device when it detonates.

Innis Cabal
2008-05-28, 10:10 PM
An SM goes under a longer training session, as they can live far longer then a Spartan. They are far more combat ready and experianced then a Spartan. Thats just how 40K is.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-28, 10:13 PM
An SM goes under a longer training session, as they can live far longer then a Spartan. They are far more combat ready and experianced then a Spartan. Thats just how 40K is.

Agreed. But after a point it doesn't matter. Most training of the real elite forces in RL is just to keep the edge, not to improve their capabilities. You reach a point where training doesn't improve your combat capabilities, and that point is when the proper actions become ingrained habit.

Kane
2008-05-28, 10:15 PM
I think both universes rely upon the Rule Of Cool in place pf physics. Although the 40k universe goes way way over the top with it. They have people who can manipulate the power of what is more or less hell.

And also, Void Grenades do beat Plasmas any day, but if we wanted to over the top then a Spartan could overload his own suit and just nuke the whole combat zone. What average Space Marine (even allowed to choose his own equipment) is going to have freakin void grenades? Why don't we just put the SM in a Blackstone fortress and give the Spartan a Halo ring while we are at it?


Touche. However, I was under the impression that Halo at least tried to keep with some science. (Kinda.) WH40K, on the other hand, has taken everything so over the top that's it's got a new set of physics that deals with all this stuff. (Like it's normal, even.)

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-28, 10:22 PM
Touche. However, I was under the impression that Halo at least tried to keep with some science. (Kinda.) WH40K, on the other hand, has taken everything so over the top that's it's got a new set of physics that deals with all this stuff. (Like it's normal, even.)

Halo does, and apparently the only part you really have a problem with is the nerve replacement. I can think of some ways to do it with nano tech that are at least theoretically possible. And even that isn't breaking physics, maybe medical science.

Oh yeah, if you just want the Space Marine dead MC can accomplish that easily if he doesn't want to survive. He has a nuke on his back that he can make go boom (nice fusion reactor).

Rayzin
2008-05-28, 10:31 PM
Best Spartan Master Chief, or at least within top 15, vs a Patriarch or Emperor.

Yes of course Master Chief will win! He can move so fast that his reaction rate is reduced by a few milliseconds. Of course that does nothing to dodge bullets, and he'll still get owned by a warp power in a couple seconds!

PROVE ME WRONG!

zergling001
2008-05-28, 10:39 PM
I would say its pretty sad the humans have such bad weapons at their time of 2550 some. Seriously, a assault rifle is pretty sad against a bolter. SMs can wipe out the ENTIRE MILKY WAY!!!!!

Stormthorn
2008-05-28, 10:52 PM
Yes of course Master Chief will win! He can move so fast that his reaction rate is reduced by a few milliseconds. Of course that does nothing to dodge bullets, and he'll still get owned by a warp power in a couple seconds!

Its fanboys like you who give 40k a bad name. This isnt about MC versus a psycker or Patriarch. Those guys are essentialy gods. (the Emperor IS a god)

Now, Halo also has things that manipulate space-time but their small scale combat aplications still nuke cities off the face of the earth (New Mombosa when a warp jump takes place above the city).

Kane
2008-05-28, 10:55 PM
Well... If there were enough of them.


Anyway, I have a problem with the 'bullet time', and more so on the being able to react in bullet time. I also think that if all this stuff was, as you say, replaced and synthesized, and whatnot, the MC wouldn't even be close to human, and would be more of a robot or synthesized cyborg or something. (I'm not saying a SM is, it's just that at his root, he's human, and he's just a human who's had a couple million years of evolution specifically for modern combat added into him.)

Stormthorn
2008-05-28, 10:57 PM
couple million years of evolution specifically for modern combat added into him
I thought he had more like ten thousand years at most.

Jayngfet
2008-05-28, 11:19 PM
Also is this MC thats fighting because hes the strongest Spartan. So lets pit him against the strongest Space Marine like a patriarch, or in fact the emperor! It will take 5 seconds to use the warp to crush MC.

John is neither the strongest nor the fastest spartan, he was also shown to not be the brightest bullet in the clip(as far as super intelligent warriors go), he is the mario (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheMario) of spartans.

Kane
2008-05-28, 11:20 PM
I thought he had more like ten thousand years at most.

Nah. The Space Marine geneseed basically 'instantly' gives them the benefit of a couple million years of evolution specifically for 40K-modern combat. Normal people are still normal people. Space Marines, however, aren't normal. (With this being why.)

That's what I meant. (Assuming I was successful at clarifying.)

Destro_Yersul
2008-05-28, 11:21 PM
At any rate, any given Space Marine will have many years of training and a couple centuries of combat experience, so that counts for something as well. More than MC's couple decades, that's for sure. :smalltongue:

chiasaur11
2008-05-28, 11:29 PM
At any rate, any given Space Marine will have many years of training and a couple centuries of combat experience, so that counts for something as well. More than MC's couple decades, that's for sure. :smalltongue:

Many years of training with full support of equals vs. 10 years of non-stop combat, often alone, against every other race in the galaxy. Also, the people saying a primarch is needed;
You're admiting John could take the Bog standard version much, much too easily.

StGlebidiah
2008-05-29, 12:09 AM
See, this sort of annoys, because I want to write books about 40k, and I like books by 40k, and it sort of annoys me to have 40k fluff written off as "rabid fanboyism" just because they stick to the setting. And, whats more, you've never even READ the books, I mean I could say that all WWII novels are gross misinterpretations of fact, but I don't recall ever reading one, so my opinion isn't going to be worth much. And again, I like the books, and it pisses me off to have authors who's material I enjoy described as "just any idiot" and whats more, no any idiot CANNOT go off and just write books about it, it has to be approved for publishing by the company that owns the setting, so any books will be within their range of what is acceptable for the setting. And again, I don't know about any definitive statements from Halo, but the GW officials have come right out and said that, for purposes of gameplay and balance, game mechanics are a horrible representation of SM (and indeed, pretty much everything in the setting). And really, SW is a horrible example because its something that took the tried and true setting, and suddenly beefed it up a thousand times, until it was a bloated mass unrecognizable from its original form, whereas for Halo and 40k, the authors just took the formula accepted by the people who came up with the setting, and worked with it, because they liked it as it was.

And if this does sound like me taking this too seriously, I'm sorry but you struck a nerve :smallannoyed:

No, not at all taking it too seriously! I definitely owe you an apology. I didn't mean to imply (though I obviously did) that "any idiot" can write a good book. The point I was trying to make was that it's very easy for someone who enjoys a setting to go way over the top with it in writing and try to make it "more awesome" or something. If that makes any sense. For example: a Terminator being stepped on by a Titan, and surviving, while there may be some form of in-setting explanation, is really just kind of ridiculous! That's why I chose SW as an example - there are in-setting explanations for everything, but as you yourself said, it is a "bloated mass unrecognizable from its original form."

In regards to the choice of rules I used, I know they don't really match the fluff (at all) but they are by far the most underpowered representation of individual Space Marines available and they are also the rules most people are familiar with (myself included). Clearly the representation of Master Chief in the first Halo doesn't match the fluff either, from what I'm reading here. I tried that approach because I noticed that shotguns are essentially identical weapons in both games, and figured I could base a comparison off of that - I personally think it holds fairly well. But to each his own.

But, in any case, I'm sorry that I gave offense, and I hope that you do pursue writing! I haven't read the Space Marine books, but I'm a fan of the various series involving the Imperial Guard and good old Cain, so I'm familiar with the general setting.

So, attempting to sum up the fluff arguments:

Master Chief has fusion-powered armour, the protective capabilities of which I am uncertain. He also has a shield of some sort which, based on the games, can be temporarily disabled after taking enough damage (don't know about the fluff on this). MC has vastly enhanced nerve transmission speed, and Cortana uses this to actuate his armour and his muscles in unison to provide enhanced reaction time while armoured while the increased nerve transmission speed provides MC with enhanced reflexes unarmoured as well. MC is significantly stronger than an average human. He is highly trained and experienced. His suit is equipped with sensor systems. Please fill in any relevant fluff that I have missed.

Space Marines have powered armour (I forget how it is powered) which offers, in fluff, at best protection from 40k autocannon rounds and better, and at worst a vulnerability to arrows. He is tougher and stronger than the average human - from the fluff posted here I would suggest that the SM is not as strong as MC, but physically tougher due to redundant major organs, increased bone mass, and significantly faster blood clotting. Fluff bears out SMs continuing to fight despite wounds that would kill normal humans. The power armour offers some increase to speed of movement, though without a more thorough knowledge of the fluff I cannot say how much. I give this aspect, reflexes, to MC. MC can also sprint faster, though I would suggest that fluff bears out a SM doing better in a distance run or an attrition scenario. The SM is highly trained and experienced, with his training including battles to the death with his physical peers (correct me if I'm wrong on this fluff). His armour's helmet includes some form of HUD display and does not significantly restrict his vision. He also has access to hardware accessories, which are standard issue in Space Marine chapters, such as Auspex devices. Again, please fill in any relevant fluff I have missed.

In terms of weaponry, both soldiers have access to similar close-combat weapons (power swords), though if we restrict MC to UNSC weapons he loses this item. Both have access to powerful armour-piercing weapons, such as sniper rifles and laser cannons (though it may be worth noting here that, under 40k rules, sniper rifles do not have comparatively exceptional armour-piercing characteristics, suggesting that SM armour is significantly better than MC's armour at stopping standard projectile weapons, but that's rules, not fluff, and I probably shouldn't have mentioned it). Both have access to various standard projectile weapons and exotic energy weapons (though again MC loses some of those energy weapons if we restrict this to UNSC hardware). So armament either gives us a draw, or depending on interpretations of the 40k fluff, an advantage to the SM.

Given that both are highly trained and experienced, and fluff-wise function under overwhelming odds, I see no fluff reason to give one an advantage here.

So where does that leave us? MC is stronger and faster, which may tip the scales in close combat as well as enabling him to dodge projectiles which he sees coming at long range (there has been no mention yet of short-range dodging of supersonic projectiles in the fluff for either combatant). How Cortana figures into this, I'm not entirely sure - is she busy making the suit and muscles move, or is she literally taking over MC's brain and just using the capabilities of his physical form to fight a battle? If the latter, does this render MC essentially invincible unless his opponent possesses superior physical characteristics and can simply move faster than him, or is a more skilled combatant (case in point here being old, experienced martial artists who are able to defeat younger, faster, stronger opponents by virtue of experience)? However, the SM is more durable while still possessing impressive stopping power, and unless we are using unarmed hand-to-hand combat, the strength difference will not factor significantly (and if it did come to that, while MC could probably hurt the SM, by the same token the SM could probably hurt MC).

Frankly, they're likely to kill each other, with the SM having a better chance of surviving the conflict.

leperkhaun
2008-05-29, 06:35 AM
hmmmm. lets see.

Alot would have to do with weapon choice and what kind of battle they would fight.

Long range battle - I think in this instance it would be whoever saw who first. In both cases they have weapons that could kill in one shot, and both of them are good enough shots to only need one shot. I would give the slight edge to MC, the only reason is that since his reflexes are so high, he might be able to react if he got shot at in enough time do dodge the fire or not take a killing hit. I dont think the SM would have the reflexes to dodge a shot he did not know was coming.

Mid ranged battle (gun fight) - SM. The reason is that 40k hand carried guns tend to pack much much punch than what MC would have. Also I think in this case the SM's toughness will shine. Sure blowing a hole in the middle of him will probably eventually kill him, but id bet not before he could do the same to MC. And MC probably would not survive as long or even survive.

Hand to Hand - Im going to give this to the SM for a couple reasons. BOTH have weapons that can cut through armor like its not even there. The SM would have a MAJOR reach advantage for 2 reasons, 1) Longer arms 2) his sword is Space Marine sized. Another reason is experiance. a SM with one service stud has been in constant war for the past 100 years.....he has seen a lot more battle than MC. This fight will basically come down to can MC's reflexes beat the SM's supirior strength and experiance. I dont think it will.

So im 2-1 in favor of the SM.

Destro_Yersul
2008-05-29, 08:39 AM
Cortana is just a passenger in the suit. She can analyze stuff and give warnings, but she has no way of controlling it herself. She needs the Chief to do that.

As for space marine armour power, I believe the backpack contains a fusion reactor of some sort. Second, I wouldn't put the chief at stronger than a marine. Probably about the same, actually. After all, MC never flipped tanks in the fluff.

Hell, in Halo 3 he can flip the Elephant in Sandtrap back over if you somehow manage to upend it in the first place. Not realistic.

GoC
2008-05-29, 09:57 AM
Thier weapons and armor are on such a low tech base (comparatively) that the SM isn't likely to be hurt (Though, of course, with persistence, he can.)
I disagree strongly with that. SMs don't have personal shields.

konfeta
2008-05-29, 12:16 PM
Personal shields are not an definitive way to say that Master Chief armor is technologically comparable to Space Marine armor. As far as I know, the SM armor is literally a second skin, complete with artificial muscles and a whole bunch of by-novel-varied applied phlebotium augmentations.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Power_armour

Plus, the kinds of shields that Imperium uses aren't something they would put on common soldiers. Void Shields are typically used for planetary defense, and at the lower end of the scale, Titans. Rosarius and Iron Halo are rare, the latter being a one-for-each-chapter relic. The common Refractor Fields are simply something the Marines don't need, and are usually used for Imperial Officers that are normal humans.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Rosarius
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Refractor_field
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Iron_Halo

Master Chief armor is good, but I really doubt it's anywhere close the SM armor as far as generous applied phlebotium sprinkling is concerned. Just because the SM armor doesn't use shields, doesn't mean it's less advanced. Whatever disadvantage the SM's armor gets in form of not using the Halo-verse shield is made up by the ludicrous toughness of the SM armor and the SM themselves.

*By the way, people pointing out Grey Knight armor getting pierced by arrows. If the story you are talking about is the one I am thinking about (and as common sense dictates... think about WHAT the Grey Knights are fielded to fight), the weaponry carried by their opponents were infused with Warp energy. The GK should be thankful for their consecrated armor saving their lives and souls, not bitching about arrows penetrating them.

Jayngfet
2008-05-29, 01:51 PM
On the armor: Shields aren't the only thing there besides metal, it was described as being so finley tuned and powerful that when a normal soldier put it on his slightest movement became an over the top movement, breaking a good deal of his bones, from there his pain spasams killed him. It took the spartans the whole of an hour to control the armor, recognise each other beased on movement, and develop a type of sign language greeting.

Might I remind you that this is pre-shield armor that was much weaker than anything seen in game, and furthermore that a week after undergoing agumentation that warped his entire body, and a bit of weightlifting, he was able to take out four helljumpers hand to hand, unarmored, possibly even accidently killing them.

Before being armored, after this fight, they had to spar with giant robots to avoid killing instructors, and still won every time, they also can capture any object in the dark, if you doubt their stealth.

...and I don't have time to mention several other merits.

Not saying that SM couldn't do the same.

warty goblin
2008-05-29, 04:11 PM
On the armor: Shields aren't the only thing there besides metal, it was described as being so finley tuned and powerful that when a normal soldier put it on his slightest movement became an over the top movement, breaking a good deal of his bones, from there his pain spasams killed him. It took the spartans the whole of an hour to control the armor, recognise each other beased on movement, and develop a type of sign language greeting.

Sounds sort of like Windows 98- it worked OK if you were an expert and treated it just right, but otherwise you and your precious file systems were goin' down.

Compare this with Space Marine armor, which is actually well designed enough to not kill the non-superhuman (see: Sisters of Battle). Granted, they still can't use it as well, but it is a real increase in usability and functionality. Sort of like Windows XP, or possibly Linux.

Sarcasm aside, I somehow find the argument that Spartan armor is good because it kills untrained wearers and turns simple gestures into limb shattering movements rather spurious. Generally personal injury and death is after all what an armor is designed to prevent- hence any design that actually causes said effects is, rather by definition, a failure, and also perhaps a clue that the scientists had been sniffing test tube fumes a little too long when they did those last calibrations.

Eita
2008-05-29, 04:31 PM
Everyone who's talking about the arrows, I laugh at your tactics.

You after all seem to forget that we've told you time after time that they were on a Daemon world, which, by definition, takes what little laws of physics 40K has and tells them to sit down and shut up.

StGlebidiah
2008-05-29, 05:06 PM
I disagree strongly with that. SMs don't have personal shields.

Unless there is something in the fluff for Halo about those shields being able to hold up under sustained fire or even individual large blasts, all the gameplay evidence suggests that MC's shield isn't going to be a huge advantage, if it is, indeed, any advantage at all. Like I said, I don't know the Halo fluff, but in the game your shields go down hard all the time after taking comparatively small amounts of fire or melee damage.

Jayngfet
2008-05-29, 05:08 PM
Sounds sort of like Windows 98- it worked OK if you were an expert and treated it just right, but otherwise you and your precious file systems were goin' down.

Compare this with Space Marine armor, which is actually well designed enough to not kill the non-superhuman (see: Sisters of Battle). Granted, they still can't use it as well, but it is a real increase in usability and functionality. Sort of like Windows XP, or possibly Linux.

Sarcasm aside, I somehow find the argument that Spartan armor is good because it kills untrained wearers and turns simple gestures into limb shattering movements rather spurious. Generally personal injury and death is after all what an armor is designed to prevent- hence any design that actually causes said effects is, rather by definition, a failure, and also perhaps a clue that the scientists had been sniffing test tube fumes a little too long when they did those last calibrations.

...I meant to show that as just how much the MIJOLNIR armor increases strength and speed, unless you're a soldier with a decade of training, reinforced bones and muscles, and the dexterity to keep it all in check, there is no way that you'll be able to use it properly.

Deadmeat.GW
2008-05-29, 05:09 PM
Fluff wise the shield is a lot stronger then game-wise but even so it is indeed not going to stand up to the stuff a SM can throw at it for longer then a few hits.

As for the arrows, on Demon Worlds that one in billion fluke shot comes up about every other shot if some powerful entity is paying attention.

Kane
2008-05-29, 05:31 PM
Fluff wise the shield is a lot stronger then game-wise but even so it is indeed not going to stand up to the stuff a SM can throw at it for longer then a few hits.

As for the arrows, on Demon Worlds that one in billion fluke shot comes up about every other shot if some powerful entity is paying attention.

LOL at that last part.


Also, I think an SM is stronger than the MC. Sure, MC can flip a scorpion, (or wraith, or ghost, or banshee, or mongoose, or elephant), but as someone mentioned, it's more of a game mechanic than anything else.

Further, the Scorpion is a minuscule tank compared to what the SMs and Imperial Guard use, and, in fact, all of the tanks of the 40K universe.

It's TINY! I bet I could get it flipped, albeit with some repetitive motion to get it rocking.

konfeta
2008-05-29, 07:45 PM
.I meant to show that as just how much the MIJOLNIR armor increases strength and speed, unless you're a soldier with a decade of training, reinforced bones and muscles, and the dexterity to keep it all in check, there is no way that you'll be able to use it properly

Raw power is not a sign of being advanced. I imagine a decently built catapult will have more destructive power in spades compared to a modern assault rifle, but that doesn't make them comparable in technology or "advanciness".

warty goblin
2008-05-29, 08:03 PM
Raw power is not a sign of being advanced. I imagine a decently built catapult will have more destructive power in spades compared to a modern assault rifle, but that doesn't make them comparable in technology or "advanciness".

Good point- in fact the bit where it mushes normal people when they try to use it is something of an indication that it isn't sophisticated. I mean, a sophisticated armor would have software (if not hardware) controls built in to keep it from moving that fast. Sure it might be useful at some point to be able to, but then again, I'm really trying to come up with a tactical scenario where breaking your own limbs is actually a good thing...

Mr._Blinky
2008-05-29, 08:22 PM
Good point- in fact the bit where it mushes normal people when they try to use it is something of an indication that it isn't sophisticated. I mean, a sophisticated armor would have software (if not hardware) controls built in to keep it from moving that fast. Sure it might be useful at some point to be able to, but then again, I'm really trying to come up with a tactical scenario where breaking your own limbs is actually a good thing...

Well the point is that normal humans don't use it. Only augmented ones do, since they're the ones who's strength, muscle density, speed, and bone strength have been upgraded sufficiently. By your logic, a lightsaber is a terrible weapon, since any non-Jedi who uses one has a tendency to turn themselves into mincemeat. But in the hands of someone with the capabilities to use one safely, it is absolutely devastating.

Kane
2008-05-29, 08:26 PM
By your logic, a lightsaber is a terrible weapon, since any non-Jedi who uses one has a tendency to turn themselves into mincemeat. But in the hands of someone with the capabilities to use one safely, it is absolutely devastating.

I... rather agree on that. It's a badass-awesome weapon, but about half of that stems from the fact that you have to be a badass-awesome person to use it.

warty goblin
2008-05-29, 09:37 PM
Well the point is that normal humans don't use it. Only augmented ones do, since they're the ones who's strength, muscle density, speed, and bone strength have been upgraded sufficiently. By your logic, a lightsaber is a terrible weapon, since any non-Jedi who uses one has a tendency to turn themselves into mincemeat. But in the hands of someone with the capabilities to use one safely, it is absolutely devastating.

...until they end up getting shot at by more than four people of reasonable training at the same time, in which case they die. Yep, real devastating that. I mean, at least a normal soldier would have been carrying a thermal detonator, which they could have dropped and concievably actually done some damage.

On the armor thing, I mean really, you could develop an armor that only a few hundred or so people can use, or one that could be put into general circulation throughout your infantry core. I've got a better idea, instead of pouring resources into developing a few guys of massive toughness that can still be blown away by a grenade or two, why not go about improving the weapons and equipment of the vast majority of the army?

Also I'm unsure why exactly the normal layperson would make mincemeat out of themselves with a lightsaber. I manage to use things like axes that are far more difficult to control than a lightsaber fairly regularly and still have all of my limbs attached. Not get maxiumum use out of it, yes, but chop themselves to bits? I think not.

GoC
2008-05-29, 10:39 PM
Compare this with Space Marine armor, which is actually well designed enough to not kill the non-superhuman (see: Sisters of Battle). Granted, they still can't use it as well, but it is a real increase in usability and functionality. Sort of like Windows XP, or possibly Linux.
It's not a matter of well-designed but a matter of the acceleration not being enough to shatter bones. SM power armor limbs simply don't accelerate fast enough to be bone crushing (if they do then they've got an f-ing inertial damper on a portable suit and that could be turned into such a powerful weapon that I'd rival [insert classic superweapon here]).


Raw power is not a sign of being advanced. I imagine a decently built catapult will have more destructive power in spades compared to a modern assault rifle, but that doesn't make them comparable in technology or "advanciness".
That depends whether you count armor penetration into your equation for determining power.


Unless there is something in the fluff for Halo about those shields being able to hold up under sustained fire or even individual large blasts, all the gameplay evidence suggests that MC's shield isn't going to be a huge advantage, if it is, indeed, any advantage at all. Like I said, I don't know the Halo fluff, but in the game your shields go down hard all the time after taking comparatively small amounts of fire or melee damage.
I'm just saying that there's as much evidence for Imperium technological superiority as there is for the other side.

konfeta
2008-05-29, 11:00 PM
That depends whether you count armor penetration into your equation for determining power.

An assault rifle has more penetration, but well built catapult will make short of anything that's not a heavily fortified building or a tank (and even then, I think a heavy rock can make the tank dysfunctional if it smacks the turret). The amount of damage a heavy object colliding with another one is staggering and all too often underestimated.

Innis Cabal
2008-05-29, 11:13 PM
Blunt force truama wins out over penetration in large scale situations.

Jayngfet
2008-05-29, 11:14 PM
An assault rifle has more penetration, but well built catapult will make short of anything that's not a heavily fortified building or a tank (and even then, I think a heavy rock can make the tank dysfunctional if it smacks the turret). The amount of damage a heavy object colliding with another one is staggering and all too often underestimated.

Yes, now take that tank breaking rock make it alive, make it hit multiple times per second, give it the ability to aim on it's own, enhance all that with a being comsidered the finest of it's species, and give it two decades of experience, and THEN you have spartan 117, not to mention shields that will block at least one hit.

Kane
2008-05-29, 11:18 PM
Huh?

I'm sorry, that doesn't make sense.

But as for the rock analogy, it doesn't matter whether it pierces the armor or ignores it; the end result is the same.

And has it occured to people that the SM suits CAN do that, but their designers weren't crazy? I bet it can do that, or the equivalent for the upgraded SMs, but that it ALSO can be set to not do that, in case a normal person needs to use one.

I consider that more advanced. And far more practical.

StGlebidiah
2008-05-29, 11:40 PM
It's not a matter of well-designed but a matter of the acceleration not being enough to shatter bones. SM power armor limbs simply don't accelerate fast enough to be bone crushing (if they do then they've got an f-ing inertial damper on a portable suit and that could be turned into such a powerful weapon that I'd rival [insert classic superweapon here]).


That depends whether you count armor penetration into your equation for determining power.


I'm just saying that there's as much evidence for Imperium technological superiority as there is for the other side.

As far as I know, we can't say that SM power armour CAN'T cause its wearer's bones to shatter because it just isn't used that way. If I'm understanding this correctly, Spartan armour practically moves its user inside of it, and this is its primary advantage - not so much outright protection, but increased speed, strength, and some amount of durability. SM armour, by contrast, is incredibly heavy and primarily a form of protection, powered because that makes it possible to move in it in the first place, and offering a smaller amount of outright strength augmentation. The Spartan armour control interface amplifies the INTENDED motions of the user beyond speeds and forces safe for normal humans, whereas the SM armour control interface causes the armour to move at the pace of the being inside it but with greater strength.

As for shields, is it just MC who has the shield, or is it all Spartans, or every person in the UNSC army? I know default SMs don't have personal shields, but such things do exist in the 40k universe, and most champion SMs have them - they're just rare. Even if personal shields are unique to Spartans as a whole among the human forces, that puts them on about the same level of rarity as the personal shields in existence in the SM chapters (assuming I'm correct about how few Spartans there are in comparison to the UNSC's conventional soldiers).

EDIT: ninja'ed on the first point!

Talkkno
2008-05-30, 12:42 AM
Everyone who's talking about the arrows, I laugh at your tactics.

You after all seem to forget that we've told you time after time that they were on a Daemon world, which, by definition, takes what little laws of physics 40K has and tells them to sit down and shut up.

You clearly did not read Grey Knights, they only Chaos nest of considerable warping power was clearly centered deep under the palace, it noted specifically that the feeble feudal weaponary was unable to harm them besides the valley incident.

Mr._Blinky
2008-05-30, 12:45 AM
Also I'm unsure why exactly the normal layperson would make mincemeat out of themselves with a lightsaber. I manage to use things like axes that are far more difficult to control than a lightsaber fairly regularly and still have all of my limbs attached. Not get maxiumum use out of it, yes, but chop themselves to bits? I think not.

Because an ax meets resistance when it hits an object. A lightsaber does not. If you were to just be swinging an ax around, and it grazed your leg, you might get a light cut, or a maybe a deep one if you were swinging it with utter disregard for safety. With a lightsaber, that same carelessness is going to take your entire limb off, since it'll just cut right through as if it isn't there.

warty goblin
2008-05-30, 01:34 AM
Because an ax meets resistance when it hits an object. A lightsaber does not. If you were to just be swinging an ax around, and it grazed your leg, you might get a light cut, or a maybe a deep one if you were swinging it with utter disregard for safety. With a lightsaber, that same carelessness is going to take your entire limb off, since it'll just cut right through as if it isn't there.

An axe is still harder to control though, because the center of mass is well past your hand for most strokes, hence it generates a fearsome amount of torque you have to deal with every time you try to stop the sucker. A lightsaber, being a handle with a massless blade, doesn't have this problem, and would in fact be rougly like swinging your arm around while holding a small weight, which is to say very, very easy.

Please perform the following experiment: Take a dowel, about an eighth to a quarter inch in diameter and swing it around in a sword like manner. Sure there is air resistance and inertia with the dowel, but it is small enough to be irrelevant, so it makes a decent lightsaber model. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you probably did not hit yourself even once, or if you did, it was because the dowel bent when you tried to stop its swing, something which I'm fairly certain lightsabers don't do. Idiots might manage to kill themselves with a lightsaber, but idiots will manage to kill themselves with just about anything, and thus are generally not worth considering.

As for the SM power armor thing, non-super human people use it just fine without pulping their limbs- see Inquisitors and Sisters of Battle. I think Space Marines are the only ones who get Terminator armor, but other than that, anybody with access to the stuff can use it. Now they lack the Black Carapace and so are not actually neurologically uplinked to the armor like the Space Marines are, but it apparently has good enough nerve-sensors or muscle contraction predictors or something to allow the users to move around in it OK sans genetic modification.

Hence I rest my case- Space Marine power armor is a better design, because it is usable by people who have not had their skeletal structures monkied with, and produces more or less the same result, a very durable person who can carry weaponry of exceptional size (Sisters of Battle can one-woman Heavy Bolters after all). This isn't saying it is, in terms of lifting, deflecting weaponry and so on actually better, but it does mean that whoever designed it actually understood the concept of the positive feedback loop, and sensible software overlay as well. Really, who the hell wants armor that can break the user's bones? Since when could this possibly be seen as a good thing? It seems rather like giving somebody a really sexy new car and then telling them that there's a bomb planted in the steering column, so the whole thing will blow up if they turn the wheel more than half a degree.

konfeta
2008-05-30, 01:40 AM
Ninja'd by goblin, but to add - you wouldn't swing a lightsaber the way you swing a sword. The only reason they fight with lightsabers the way they do in the movies is because it looks cool. With actual duels it's different because the swords interact, but in all other cases...

Seriously, are you going take a swing with it as if it was a bat or twirl it around like mad if all you need to do is point your hand towards them and lunge? It's a weapon that literally will kill you with a lightest touch as long as it goes through the right organs (and there are many of those organs in a human body).

Destro_Yersul
2008-05-30, 07:49 AM
You clearly did not read Grey Knights, they only Chaos nest of considerable warping power was clearly centered deep under the palace, it noted specifically that the feeble feudal weaponary was unable to harm them besides the valley incident.

Then why is the one incident where it worked cited more often than the clearly more significant number of cases where it didn't? One shot of questionable origin and even more dubious reliability (no-one saw him get shot, they found the corpse after the battle) does not mean that power armour sucks, and yet this one shot seems to get mentioned as a clear example of how it does suck in every vs. thread involving Space Marines to date.

Kane
2008-05-30, 08:23 AM
Ninja'd by goblin, but to add - you wouldn't swing a lightsaber the way you swing a sword. The only reason they fight with lightsabers the way they do in the movies is because it looks cool. With actual duels it's different because the swords interact, but in all other cases...

Seriously, are you going take a swing with it as if it was a bat or twirl it around like mad if all you need to do is point your hand towards them and lunge? It's a weapon that literally will kill you with a lightest touch as long as it goes through the right organs (and there are many of those organs in a human body).

If I recall from a couple years ago when I was enjoying rabid StarWars fanboy-ism, Lightsabers have some[technical mumbo jumbo] magnetic field in the hilt that cuts off the blade. (Why they can project a sword only a meter or so long), and it makes it difficult to turn normally, or use normally. As I understood it, you couldn't do normal things like lunges.

I could probably throw a pebble at a Spartan II suit, and, in a one in some-ungodly-number chance, get it lodged in a neck joint, crushed, and fragments of shattered rock shoot inward, and cut the chief's Jugular. Same idea as the arrow thing.

Mind you, I would never TRY that, because it's ridiculously stupid, but.... You know. A billion? Trillion? Eventually, it could happen.

Mr._Blinky
2008-05-30, 05:44 PM
Hence I rest my case- Space Marine power armor is a better design, because it is usable by people who have not had their skeletal structures monkied with, and produces more or less the same result, a very durable person who can carry weaponry of exceptional size (Sisters of Battle can one-woman Heavy Bolters after all). This isn't saying it is, in terms of lifting, deflecting weaponry and so on actually better, but it does mean that whoever designed it actually understood the concept of the positive feedback loop, and sensible software overlay as well. Really, who the hell wants armor that can break the user's bones? Since when could this possibly be seen as a good thing? It seems rather like giving somebody a really sexy new car and then telling them that there's a bomb planted in the steering column, so the whole thing will blow up if they turn the wheel more than half a degree.

Yeah, but the difference is that Space Marine armor is designed to be usable by practically anyone. Mjolnir armor is not. It is specifically designed to be used only by the people who can survive wearing it. They didn't even both trying to make a suit that a normal person could wear, because that wasn't the point of the armor. Sure, they could downgrade the strength and speed enough that you or I could move in it without dying, but why would they? We're not the ones supposed to be wearing it.

Clearly, cars are a terrible design. I mean, what kind of manufacturer would make the pedals and wheel so far apart that a young child could not easily use both at the same time? After all, if not everyone can drive a car, then it must be poorly designed.

The problem here is that a child is not meant to drive a car. Why would manufacturers modify a vehicle and thereby make it harder for an adult to use in order to cater to someone who shouldn't be driving in the first place? Mjolnir armor is so overly powerful because the only people who should be using one, the Spartans, can actually survive wearing it. Why design it otherwise?

warty goblin
2008-05-30, 05:59 PM
Yeah, but the difference is that Space Marine armor is designed to be usable by practically anyone. Mjolnir armor is not. It is specifically designed to be used only by the people who can survive wearing it. They didn't even both trying to make a suit that a normal person could wear, because that wasn't the point of the armor. Sure, they could downgrade the strength and speed enough that you or I could move in it without dying, but why would they? We're not the ones supposed to be wearing it.

Clearly, cars are a terrible design. I mean, what kind of manufacturer would make the pedals and wheel so far apart that a young child could not easily use both at the same time? After all, if not everyone can drive a car, then it must be poorly designed.

The problem here is that a child is not meant to drive a car. Why would manufacturers modify a vehicle and thereby make it harder for an adult to use in order to cater to someone who shouldn't be driving in the first place? Mjolnir armor is so overly powerful because the only people who should be using one, the Spartans, can actually survive wearing it. Why design it otherwise?

But the vast majority of people with the income to buy a car are not children, hence they are irrelevant. Similarly the vast majority of people who could benefit from power armor are not super-human, and hence catering to the super-human is stupid, since it reduces the benefit the armor can provide.

Look at it another way, there's no reason that you couldn't strip down the Mjollnir armor into something usable by the common person, all it would take is a fairly basic set of software failsafes to keep the thing from moving too fast. Since the stuff already has the computational capacity of a starship, this shouldn't be very difficult to fit in, and the armor pretty clearly already is run by a large suite of electronics. The fact that they don't do this is, to put it mildly, stupid, rather like designing a car only for children.

It's not even as if the Mjollnir armor is good enough to really keep the user completely safe anyway. If it only doubles the wearer's survivability (two grenades instead of one), then it's not doing that much good. Hence in order to get the most out of the R&D budget, it makes sense to put it on as many people as possible, instead of just confining it to a few hundred or however many Spartans there were.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-30, 06:10 PM
But the vast majority of people with the income to buy a car are not children, hence they are irrelevant. Similarly the vast majority of people who could benefit from power armor are not super-human, and hence catering to the super-human is stupid, since it reduces the benefit the armor can provide.

Look at it another way, there's no reason that you couldn't strip down the Mjollnir armor into something usable by the common person, all it would take is a fairly basic set of software failsafes to keep the thing from moving too fast. Since the stuff already has the computational capacity of a starship, this shouldn't be very difficult to fit in, and the armor pretty clearly already is run by a large suite of electronics. The fact that they don't do this is, to put it mildly, stupid, rather like designing a car only for children.

It's not even as if the Mjollnir armor is good enough to really keep the user completely safe anyway. If it only doubles the wearer's survivability (two grenades instead of one), then it's not doing that much good. Hence in order to get the most out of the R&D budget, it makes sense to put it on as many people as possible, instead of just confining it to a few hundred or however many Spartans there were.

Again, your going with game mechanics, not fluff. Fluff it is very good.

But as to why they don't step it down for normals? Cost. A single suit of Mjollnir armor costs as much as a battleship. And if you step down its capabilities you loose its biggest advantage. So the UNSC realized that since they couldn't equip even a large fraction of their ground forces in Mjollnir armor (there are less than 100 suits in the entire universe) it made since to only give them to people who can use the suit to its maximum capabilities.

Innis Cabal
2008-05-30, 06:22 PM
So you admit they are fielding cost ineffective units...How are they better in any way? Anything that is a sink hole for the military is not really a success, despite the story, that really is a reality. Things that cost to much are thrown away or made so they are actually worth mass producing.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-30, 06:31 PM
So you admit they are fielding cost ineffective units...How are they better in any way? Anything that is a sink hole for the military is not really a success, despite the story, that really is a reality. Things that cost to much are thrown away or made so they are actually worth mass producing.

No, the units they are fielding with it are cost effective (The Spartan 2's). What is not cost effective is stepping down the armors abilities to a level that won't kill a regular solider and then equipping that solider with the armor.

The capabilities of the armor, when used at their fullest make it worth the cost to equip at least elite units. The capabilities, when used at a level that won't kill those soldiers don't make it worth the cost.

warty goblin
2008-05-30, 06:31 PM
Again, your going with game mechanics, not fluff. Fluff it is very good.

But as to why they don't step it down for normals? Cost. A single suit of Mjollnir armor costs as much as a battleship. And if you step down its capabilities you loose its biggest advantage. So the UNSC realized that since they couldn't equip even a large fraction of their ground forces in Mjollnir armor (there are less than 100 suits in the entire universe) it made since to only give them to people who can use the suit to its maximum capabilities.

In the fluff a person wearing it was ripped apart by two grenades, one of which was able to penetrate the armor. That's not exactly stellar. It also IIRC seems to get charred and destroyed reasonably frequently by plasma weapons, the actual energy of which I have already calculated as being rather low. I am not impressed.

Also, why the hell would anybody invest the worth of a battlecruiser into a single suit of armor? I mean really, given that the Covenent's favored tactic, glassing planets, doesn't exactly involve a lot of ground combat to begin with, I'd much rather have the extra hundred warships thank you very much.

Innis Cabal
2008-05-30, 06:34 PM
Because it makes it sound cooler thats why, thats the only real reason.

Jayngfet
2008-05-30, 07:11 PM
In the fluff a person wearing it was ripped apart by two grenades, one of which was able to penetrate the armor. That's not exactly stellar. It also IIRC seems to get charred and destroyed reasonably frequently by plasma weapons, the actual energy of which I have already calculated as being rather low. I am not impressed.

Also, why the hell would anybody invest the worth of a battlecruiser into a single suit of armor? I mean really, given that the Covenent's favored tactic, glassing planets, doesn't exactly involve a lot of ground combat to begin with, I'd much rather have the extra hundred warships thank you very much.

The spartans were fully trained and MIJOLNIR armor almost ready by the time anybody knew about the covanent, the spartans first mission was to take out some space mafia.

Innis Cabal
2008-05-30, 07:19 PM
So.....they were going to field battlecrusier-suits, against a mafia? See above please and thank you

zergling001
2008-05-30, 07:28 PM
In the fluff a person wearing it was ripped apart by two grenades, one of which was able to penetrate the armor. That's not exactly stellar. It also IIRC seems to get charred and destroyed reasonably frequently by plasma weapons, the actual energy of which I have already calculated as being rather low. I am not impressed.

Also, why the hell would anybody invest the worth of a battlecruiser into a single suit of armor? I mean really, given that the Covenent's favored tactic, glassing planets, doesn't exactly involve a lot of ground combat to begin with, I'd much rather have the extra hundred warships thank you very much.
BTW, Covenant ships smash open UNSC ships like putty-and the ships take a long time to make and use up many resources.

Rayzin
2008-05-30, 08:04 PM
I'm betting one good Krak grenade or melta one could rip apart MC if 2 frag grenades can.

Making Mjolnir armor also takes time and seems to die really easily.

Jayngfet
2008-05-30, 08:05 PM
So.....they were going to field battlecrusier-suits, against a mafia? See above please and thank you

Yes, but it was only with three nearly unarmed spartans when they weren't in a war.

Hey, this means MC is a ninja doesn't it, after all, isn't breaking into powerful peoples houses and bringing them down what ninja's are famous for?

So the SM's going into a mountain forrest fighting a ninja who can punch missiles to stop them?

So MC's going against a super soldier with near impenetrable armor who can rapid fire brute shots as a minimum?

Innis Cabal
2008-05-30, 08:07 PM
So its a ninja "robot" v Super soldier situation, its all so simple! The end result clearly must be they become pirates and rip space time a new one

zergling001
2008-05-30, 08:10 PM
Wait..can't the Space Marine just get a flamer and like rape the forest?:smallconfused: Or call for artillery if MC is oh so good

Jayngfet
2008-05-30, 08:18 PM
So its a ninja "robot" v Super soldier situation, its all so simple! The end result clearly must be they become pirates and rip space time a new one

Ninja cyborg with a computer chick vs Futuristic fantasy supersoldier armed with a chainsaw sword.

Oh god, what have I done?

Innis Cabal
2008-05-30, 08:22 PM
We have in the process of all this created a perfect defense v perfect offense, what has Suikoden 2 taught us?

chiasaur11
2008-05-31, 02:10 PM
Ninja cyborg with a computer chick vs Futuristic fantasy supersoldier armed with a chainsaw sword.

Oh god, what have I done?

Explained both how the Cheif won so often, gave him victory here, and posed a new question.

What trait does the armor have to allow 5 or so ninjas to operate with success?

Destro_Yersul
2008-05-31, 03:04 PM
Minor counteraction of the Inverse Ninja Law, to the point that it allows small groups of ninja to remain as deadly individually as they would be if they were alone.

Of course, if one is to gather many Ninja in one place, the armour's minor counteraction would be void. Notice how medium sized groups of spartans suffer more casualties than small ones, despite being on equally dangerous missions. Also note Master Chief's stubborn refusal to die, possibly due to going solo and thus being strengthened by the counteraction effect.