Lord Soth V.S. The Witch King

[Steven the Lich]

My name is Steven, not Stephen. Stephen the lich doesn't sound as good as Steven. Alright, so the magic blade barrier wasn't effective against every single one. Honestly, sounds like a rip off of what WK has going. Jon Irenicus... Pardon me, must go look him up.
*Poof*
*Poof*
Back.
I remember playing that game in the first few chapters. It was very interesting. Jon was a pretty cool guy. Destroys his own lair, didn't he? Never found out his true scheme. I do remember seeing the ending on Youtube, and his demise at a couple of little imps. Course, he couldn't use his magic so that is pardoned.
As for a battle against the LK... I think not... What I read is Jon tried to be a god... LK achieved technical god hood and a ton of power. Necromancy too. I think, judging from what I just read of him, he would rather join the LK, since it would further his own goals, and he could learn a thing or two from the LK in "How to be a bad guy".

[EvilElitest]

You saying I'm championing powers and demolishing the WK's doesn't make my points any less accurate as well. You haven't really convinced me to think otherwise, and what you and Tyrant are doing really is irritating me.

The think that your really not understanding the basic premise. Here, i'll try to explain


EvilElitest and Mr. Scaly have a duel. EE casts a spell upon himself, this spell with protect him from physical harm. However, it only works against magic of a certain "power level" in a DB sort of sense. Mr. Scaly gets a magical sword, that can destroy any magic protection with 100 or less power level. EE's shield is at 101, he is good. Mr. Scaly gets a new 103 sword, and wins. you see? This is a "magic level" sort of fight. However LOTRS, and Warcraft don't work under those rules.

Its like legend of Zelda. Each boss needs to be defeated in a special way. If you don't kill them in that certain way, you can't hurt them in the least.

Here is another example. EvilElitest and Executor fight a duel. EE is given a magical protection. He may not be harmed by any physical attack. Executor has a sword that is extremely powerful, but has not special ability in over coming physical attacks. If executor can find another sword that can over come magical protections then he is good. It takes a specific tool for a specific job



I would agree that if Dragons attacked the Nazgul directly, they would be affected by the Black Breath. Just by flying around the Nazgul's airspace? I believe Magic Resistance covers that.

Black Shadow, the crop duster effect could take over from there. The nazgul don't even need to be close. Don't forget fear and despair, and hte Wk can use even more powerful attack (also Black breath can be a ranged attack, see Merry in Bree)


Seriously, WK used his quantity well and lost. Sauron lost using it on several occasions, whether its a deus ex machina that intervenes or no.
And they won on many more occasions. And Sauron would have one if the ring hadn't been destroyed, Gandalf says as much. Most of the times they lose, they are defeated by advanced tactics, not better enemy troops (Battle of Five armies, Siege of Gondor, Battle of helm's deep, Battle of hte black Gate ect)


Remember that Osgiliath was defended by only a few humans, yet they held their ground well enough, until Sauron decided to try a night strike.
Soth has magic, dragons, undead... WK's forces get only one of those three, and I don't think the WK can use magic to the extent Soth can.

1) Um, what are you talking about? Osgiliath is taken not by a night attack, unless you mean the movies? In the book it is held by a full force (actually that is true in the movies as well) and it is swarmed. Hell, even in the movies it is swarmed, the night attack was only so they could get the siege weapons over quickly
2) Um, the Wk has undead, you know, being one and all that. Barrow wights and lesser wraiths serve him as well. And you over estimate Soth's undead. he has 13 skeleton knights, a small number of banshees, and maybe a few dozen skelton and zombies, who even orcs can deal with. Nothing big. Soth has limits on his direct magic, but the Wk has fear, despair, black shadow, black breath, plague, fire, ice, and a flaming sword.

You're right, they help, but tactics ultimately win. Not oversized armies.

And even in tactics Soth is at a disadvantage, because a small force defeating a large force can work, but it requires the enemy to be incompetent, like Hannibal and Napoleon at their greatest victories. The may have won while outnumbered, but they weren't that outnumbered and their enemy commanders were not good generals, hence victory. Soth simply doesn't have the fire power to cripple, let along defeat the WK


Yeah... Soth doesn't have anything that big... no wait... he does. DRAGONS! Orcs are going to have a hard time taking those dudes down, and the WK only needs to be on the ground for a bit for the dragons to roast the orcs to a golden crisp. Mmmmmmm... orc smores... No wait... Blech, horrible taste.

Your point? He only has half a hundred, they aren't that old normally, and they can get countered. orc arrows, poisoned of course, can do massive damage, and while i admit they will kill a lot of orcs, if it takes 300 orcs to bring down a dragon, works for the WK. Thrown stones of course, the Wk's magic, fear, despair, black shadow, black breath, Wraith arrows, they can be brought down one by one, and they can be held back by swarms of crows, Cerbain and bats. There are so many orcs on the ground, that the Dragons, who can't be everywhere, simply can't kill enough to make up for the fact the orcs will be swarming Soth's ground forces. They are dangerous, but they won't turn the tide, and in fact they are the only thing that presents a challenge
nitpick, they don't breath fire, lighting, these are blues. With a few acid breathing greens

I know the specific reasons each of them won. Deus ex machina. Seems to happen a lot in LotRs. So tell me, wouldn't that happen in this battle as well? The will of god is never with Sauron. Soth seems to have better luck.

Hello, vs. thread, we don't use plot armor or deus ex machina. This takes place in a closed circit, a dues ex would ruin the point of a vs. thread


All those orcs don't count as a win instantly, even with proper tactics. Yet they seem to you as a giant "Im-a-winner" button to you. Greater slaughter for greater numbers.
Look, the Wk has hundreds of thousand of orcs, from Angmar, Morgul, and Mordor, not counting Trolls, Olag hai, Uruk hai and his elite human forces. The blue dragon army in contrast has a few ten thousand, and many of those are weak creatures like goblins. Soth has maybe a hundred lesser undead and not even as score of elites. The sheer ratio of kills will destroy him. Goblins, normal skeletons and zombies are weaker than orcs on average, and the humans, orges, hobgoblins and dragononicans can be swarmed en mass. Soth can't kill enough orcs to make up for hte forces he losses. Every dragon the WK brings down will lower the kill ratio greatly, and every dragon that, even for a moment, is paralized in fear gives more time for the orcs to swarm Soth's forces en mass. Even if the Wk literally runs out of orcs, Uruk hai, trolls, Olag Hai, and cross breeds, he can send his armies of humans, who are actually skilled (varies on what tribe we are talking about but still) with his own elite of Barrow wights and lesser wraiths/Mumikil. Siege weapons will be launching flaming rocks at soth's forces, some possibly hitting a stray dragon, and the nazgul will cause Soth's foot troops to be paralized with fear, or at least some of them. Goblins, hob goblins and ogres aren't particrually loyal and might break after some fighting and the fear/despair, along with the black shadow and black breath, and the humans might just break from the fear itself (including the dragon riders). The Dragons and dragon folk are resistant yes, but not immune, and some of them will break and flee, or fall sick from the black shadow, get stricken by the black break, or simply give up and let themselves die due to despair, not to mention direct magic attacks. Its the kill ratio, Soth can't kill enough to make up for the amount of men that the Wk kills in the same time. He might destroy 40 % of the WK's forces, only to find himself with 90% of his gone


Overseen by the WK. Any moment he leaves the field, they're bound to be scattered.

And i remind you that the WK was able to hold the force together on foot, so even if he is felled he is still able to keep the army together. And the other eight nazguls. If all eight nazguls are some how not on the field (which wouldn't happen) even then the orcs won't break unless they think they are actually losing, which will be hard. Gothmog can do what he did in the books and rally them, remember the kept fighting long after the nazgul left the field, and even then the Olag hai and the human forces will keep it up.


And we're back to the protection issue. What is the WK made of, adamantine? Dragons teeth man. I don't think the WK's protection does much against that. I don't think his protection does much to stop weapons and such, it only protects him from harm. Otherwise, he wouldn't be able to turn swords to ash because they wouldn't be penetrating him. I honestly can't imagine a dragon biting down on the WK, letting him go, and him still being in one piece.
1) Dragon's bite attack does not work that way. It has no ablity to over come magical protections. Hence can't work on him
2) Um, we already did that, he can't be hurt by normal weapons and that includes dragon teeth. If it bite him, the teeth simply wouldn't peirce. You have no evidence to prove that a dragon's teeth can actually hurt him. They might throw him off the nazgul, but it can't hurt him, and besides, he can simply morgul shank the dragon


I
f what you say is true, hell, JRR Tolkien really screwed up this dude with so many godly protections that not even Sauron had. He made WK into the indestructible and evil chew toy.

Well
1) He was suppose to be an invincible evil champion, hence why he was sauron's second in command. And hence why his death was such a shock to everybody
2) to be fair however, in ME, there are sword that are designed to hurt him. There is direct magic that can hurt him. The things he is weak against are in the world and can damage him, hence why he can't just run around shaking every good guy


Easier said than done. You act like thewy Nazgul would be able to casually sit back on their Fell Beasts while flying away from these scaled creatures that could easily kill their Fell Beasts simply biting the neck or such.

nazgul are very fast, and as long as the nazgul are around, the negative spells will be effected the dragons and their riders, and the enemy armies below. The dragon can ignore them, which will work out great for the nazgul, who they can chase them. The fell beasts just have to avoid them as long as possible as the dragons are picked off by the spell or the nazgul's arrows, and the dragon who actually brings down a fell beast will fall as well form black breath. Every dragon that chases the fell beasts will not be fighting the orcs, meaning more orcs to slaughter Soth's small land forces.


Okay, few question. Was his current mount dead? Wouldn't the heroes have seen spare mounts from their towers? Would that really be the case this time?
Also... You mean to say that the Fell Beast that Eowyn slew... slicing off the head with a sword... was one that was suppose to be bigger and tougher than a normal one... Wow, they really are *******.
Oh, and by the way... whats keeping the dragons from flying around the field and finding the cache of Fell Beast mounts and then burning them to a crisp? 50 dragons seem to be capable of that.

1) the Wk arrives onto the battle on an evil horse. He goes to the gate, banters with Gandalfs, sees the riders coming, goes away, comes back on a fell beast. earlier three other nazguls are felled and come back. So they have some fell beasts in the armies
2) Correction actually, the fell beast wasn't any bigger, but they are pretty big, like 25 feet or something, so they aren't a push over. Also it seems they realize some sort of unholy energy. When the fell beast died, the place where it landed, no grass grew there ever again, and it realized some sort of stench taht made many of the riders fall to the ground sick. Doubt it would do much against the dragons, but against the riders, and if it fell among soth's forces.


This is what I'm talking about. No I did not. If saying "The shield can be overcome by a god-like weapon" is removing the shield completely from the debate, completely weakening it to serve no use in another universe, then you are right. I would know my own argument and points better than you claim to without twisting my words into something completely different than what I implied. To you, I'm saying all magic entering the Warcraft universe is dispelled. What I'm saying is in other worlds, the WK's shield may not be as dominant as it is in LotRs.
You argument has no facts to back it. The thing is, high magic doesn't not make other magic suddenly void. EE wields a very powerful magic sword, that doesn't mean he can over come the WK shield, because EE's magic sword (called pointy) simply doesn't have any anti magic, or anti shield, or anti undead powers.


In its own world, only the Barrowblade can remove it, but it is specifically meant to, designed in the aspect. Other weapons aren't so lucky, no matter how little sense it makes. However... Middle Earth lacks weapons belonging to gods... And I think if the Valar and Illuvatar made a sword of godly proportions, whether or not it has the Barrowblades enchantment, still a good bet that it can sever the WK in several pieces.
1) Me has the weapons of the valar, and Morgoth's mace, so yeah
2) Also, just because a weapon is made by a god, doesn't mean it can over come certain magic. It just doesn't work that way. Just because something is powerful doesn't give it a free ticket to destroy stuff

Its like Badur's gate. I'm playing the game, and i have some really powerful weapons. because i'm cool like that. I fight a mage, and he casts protection from magic weapons. And so here are my options
1) Use a normal weapon
2) cast direct magic at him (fire ball or something)
3) Dispel the effect
4) Use a sword that can over come magical effects
My most powerful plus 6 two handed sword will simply not work. because it has no special effects at overcoming magical shields, it is just a good sword


Maybe that is how it is in LotRs, but honestly, whose word and what divine right do you have to say that it works completely like that in all other universes. The more I hear about this protection, the less sense it makes.
Sauron is also put to shame as a minion vastly weaker than him actually has a stronger magic shield, that is stronger than the old one he had. That is just screwed up.

1) The protection works just like similar protections in other world, you need a specific attack to overcome it, You don't have any actual evidence to back your point, your just saying you want it to work
2) Sauron and the Wk are too different types of beings. The spell seems to be a wraith only thing (possible exception, gandalf has some sort of similar protection). It is also worth noting that Sauron might have a different sort of magic shield (maybe only magic weapons could hurt him, as Narzil was a super magic weapon) but we simply don't know, but we do know that the Wk's shield has to do with his spirtatral existence as a wraith. Just because Sauron is at the top of the evil chain doesn't mean he gets everybody's powers. I mean, he can't spin webs but nobody doubts that he is more powerful than Schelob

Actually come to think of it, he might have a shield that just isn't mentioned. Schelob and Gandalf has similar protections.

I
know exactly how the protection works, but I don't believe it won't shatter when confronted with a magic weapon that has god like powers.

Why? God like powers are just uber powerful, unless one of these god like powers includes being able to over come magic. Frostmourn is an uber magic item. One of the things that makes it uber is that ability to hurt wraiths. however if it didn't have that abilty, no matter how powerful it was in terms of damage it can inflict, it still lacks the power needed to over come the shield, which requires a specific power, as it isn't a "power level" styled spell


Says you. Does that mean you're right automatically? Not a chance. You realize that going by your view, the shield is just vastly overpowered.
I already proved it had nothing to do with power level. I'll show you again
Glamring is Gandalf's sword, and it is an extremly powerful magical item. It inflicts massive wounds upon those who are hit by it, and is known as the Foe Hammer The barrow blade is a far weaker weapon, just a niffty sword. In terms of power, Glamring is far above the Barrow blade. However, the barrow blade can hurt the Wk, while Glamring can not


Not even a kamehameha, nor any other pure energy attack from DBZ, can get through, going by it through your logic. You realize that that just isn't credible, no matter how you go about it saying its true.
Because i don't think DBZ super blasts are magic. Hell, i don't even know what the hell they are. If they use magic blasts, they it could destroy him. But if that is just massive energy, like a nuke, then not a chance, because you need magic to destory him. You'd launch him into space, but not kill him



Besides, LotRs isn't high magic, and other universes have magic vastly stronger, with stronger sword enchants as well or stronger swords. You have no basis that they will not be effective other than the "No sword in the LotRs universe can do it". And thats just it, no sword in the LotRs universe other than the Barrowblade is ultimately effective, but that law doesn't go up for every universe in the whole fantasy genre.
And as i said, the magic level doesn't matter. It isn't about magic level, it isn't about overcoming a shield of 100 power points with a weapon of 150 attack points. It is about finding a specific weapon for the job

A were wolf can only be hurt by silver. Even if i'm using a plus 5 epic sword, i can't kill them without silver.

Now if i had a super special awseme epic sword that also had the abilty to over come magical defenses, then i'm good

I mean take the wall example. The wall is immune to swords. So you instead use a genade. Fine, but no matter what swords you use, it won't go down, unless you have a sword with a specific power "destroy magic walls) or something to that effect.


If Sargerous uses his sword, unless it has

1) Holy powers
2) anti undead powers
3) the power to over come magic (he most likely does because it is a gods sword)
he can't hurt him. True, this is Sargerous, he'd just use a direct magic attack, but my point stands


Tyrant, I know you didn't mean it that way but...five bucks says that Jon Irenicus could put Arthas over his knee and give him such a spanking he'd never forget.

EE, good to see you're back.
1) yep, my hand healed, so i'm able to type again
2) Jon is a level 40 mage i think, and even if he runs out of magic, freaky buff, with lots of magic items, he can do i think



Soth commands fire and ice, a super powered fear aura (not applicable against the undead and all), numerous power words or symbols (most of which I don't think work against the undead), and depending on what character sheet you look at some kind of Dispelling effect.
Problem is we don't know what is cannon and what is not. We know taht some of his powers are cannon, but i don'tk now if dispel is. does he ever actually use it in the books



Black Breath is fairly close ranged though, isn't it? And as tot he army size thing...in one of the Sword of Truth novels (the second I think) an army of 4500+ green recruits slaughter a force of 52,000+ veterans. Only about 900 of the good guys survive but all the enemy are killed. So using the right tactics (they perfected the skill of shooting a man while he's in the latrine) anything is possible. Granted they were taught by a Mary Sue...

1) Black breath can be used at range, merry was brought out from a ranged attack in Bree, but anyways, black shadow is a crop duster effect
2) I remind you that Sword of Truth is an awful book. Lets look at real life tactics. A smaller force can defeat a larger one true, but it requres some really good tactics and most importantly, a weakness i the enemy you can export. take hannibal for example, in Italy he is able to defeat the romans with his elite forces and smart plans, dispite being out numbered, but fails in North Africa, because his enemy commander (scipio) isn't htat dumb

Napoleon can defeat the Austrians with a smaller force, but can't defeat the British/Prussians in the final hundred days, even through he was a far better general



1) On the reverse side, how is WK's unarmed fighting? If Soth does do the 'freeze-destroy' his weapons they'd be on even footing again.
2) Fire and ice. Maybe shield dispelling (again, depending on which character sheet). Maybe others.
3) Well in the book he considers Raistlin the only one who could destroy him. Dalamar, Justarius, Par Salian, Ladonna, all very skilled archmages, all he is utterly unafraid of.
1a) Um, he never actually fights unarmed. He is fast and has magic, but i've never seen him fight without a weapon.
1b) but soth doesn't fight like that, would he think of freezing the weapons (remember this is soth, not you, who has to think quickly.)
2) Alright, ice is usless, but fire could work
3) he says Raistalin could destory him, not hte only one. He also notes he could defeat those others, but that isn't because of spell resistance (Death knight isn't that high), its just because he is very skilled
from
EE

[Bago!!!]

That post is far to large, so I'll just address the point of the Large force being beaten by a smaller force only if the large force is lead by incompetents. Its not that simple. It could be but it isn't. Its not who is the incompentent, its who can use what they have to a far greater advantage than the other can to a far greater degree. What Soth's forces really have going for them is their dragons with all their protections, attacks that can hit multiple units at once, flight, great intimidation, and superoir minds than the goblins below. There are bound to be other things but I am to tired to say....

[EvilElitest]

That post is far to large, so I'll just address the point of the Large force being beaten by a smaller force only if the large force is lead by incompetents. Its not that simple. It could be but it isn't. Its not who is the incompentent, its who can use what they have to a far greater advantage than the other can to a far greater degree. What Soth's forces really have going for them is their dragons with all their protections, attacks that can hit multiple units at once, flight, great intimidation, and superoir minds than the goblins below. There are bound to be other things but I am to tired to say....

its not just the advantages, it is how you use them and how they can be countered. If Soth had dragons and he was fighting an army from song of fire and ice, yeah your right. But the Wk's force can counter dragons, at great loss, but they still can, and his sheer numbers can mean he can weather hte storm of dragon rage while his army advances
from
EE

[Bago!!!]

What tactics? All your saying is that the breath and the nazgul would kill them before they could do anything productively. I am saying that the Dragons could counter such tactics rather quickly by taking out the ONLY flying units that they have And I see it pointless that any of them could get hit by a nazgul up close and personal, since the dragons have reach for goodness sack, which means that they chomp at the head of the creature, and since a shortsword could hack one's head relatively easily, then rows of sharp teeth should have much trouble. Most mundane fire from the orcs would be pointless between the armor and damage reduction. The orcs I highly doubt have any real experiance fighting dragons, and the WK may or may not have fought any foes who fly. The dragons have had such experiance and are quite intellegent in their own right. And how come theres only like half a hundred? I thought there was more. Poisen? Their fortitude save overcomes it most of the time, presuming that they even make past their scales. Fear? They got magical resistances and hell of some will to boot. Wraith arrows? They may beable to hit, but they wouldn't be able to shoot too many of those before they get burned to a crisp.

I've read on the battle of the five armies, and I didn't see any advanced tactics. The only tactics I tend to see being employed by the orcs are rather simple and tend to be simply overpower the other with your massive numbers.

On the whole power level thing, what is wrong with that? I find it makes sense, course I would put it on a smaller scale than 0 to ???. I don't see how it can't be used in LoTR or WoW. Heck, I dueled a mage that was lower level than me, he was amped up to be a blaster, perfect in PvP. I was a Destruction spec Warlock. My area was in PvE for the most part. He dueled me to make me feel stupid, but about half his spells were resisted, all mine made it through. My higher level, along with some amped up magic resistances, provided me into overcoming him. That says powerlevel all over it. Your not honestly gonna cast a fireball at a level 50 as a level 10 and expect it to make it through.

And for that protection from magic weapons spell, how could you get that casted on you? Was it a wizard spell or a cleric spell or what? And what level could you actuelly use it? Such a thing sounds Awesomely powerful, and if it was balduer gate was expanded to include more of the world. I for one, who enjoyed the beginning of the Baldur Gate games, understand that some of these games have limitations. Could you in Baldurs Gate sneak attack using a ray spell? No. Besides, I think thats when you get into the epic system, which is broken.

[Steven the Lich]

EE, I don't think you are using much sense here. Dragons have magic resistence, its a law. I doubt unless confronted with it directly, I don't think the BB is going to work. They have damn good saves. Lightning breath? Not a problem, because it is wicked fast by logic. Lighting is faster than a Fell Beast I imagine, so a dragon could snipe them. A quick bolt, and a great fall.
Dragons would also be able to destroy siege engines, bigger units, whatever place the WK has Fell Beasts... Even if they are wiped out, they can still do enough damage to even the playing field for Soth. And keep in mind, Soth has one huge asset... Flying... Fortress... No matter how we set up the battlefield, it can fly over the enemies, and it is impossible for the orcs to breach because they cannot reach it. Only the Nazgul can, and they would likely fail, no matter their skill. A useful tactic would be to place archers on the fort, and rain arrows down on the orcs. Wizards can cast a few spells, if given the oppurtunity. Plus, it serves as a garrison for Soths soldiers, which could be sent down. This is also where Kitiara stays with her dragons.


A were wolf can only be hurt by silver. I actually believe theres more than one way to kill them. Hunt them in the day, or set up a pointy trap involving a giant spike going through the wolf, for instances. Silver is a weakness that is used to slay them, not to be mistaken for the ONLY way to kill them, just as Garlic is not the only way to kill a vampire.


And they won on many more occasions. And Sauron would have one if the ring hadn't been destroyed, Gandalf says as much. Most of the times they lose, they are defeated by advanced tactics, not better enemy troops (Battle of Five armies, Siege of Gondor, Battle of helm's deep, Battle of hte black Gate ect) Well, good for them. Now here we have better soldiers and possibly better tactics. Soth isn't an idiot, and even if strategy isn't his bag, what about Kitiara.


Your point? He only has half a hundred, they aren't that old normally, and they can get countered. orc arrows, poisoned of course, can do massive damage, and while i admit they will kill a lot of orcs, if it takes 300 orcs to bring down a dragon, works for the WK. Thrown stones of course, the Wk's magic, fear, despair, black shadow, black breath, Wraith arrows, they can be brought down one by one, and they can be held back by swarms of crows, Cerbain and bats. There are so many orcs on the ground, that the Dragons, who can't be everywhere, simply can't kill enough to make up for the fact the orcs will be swarming Soth's ground forces. They are dangerous, but they won't turn the tide, and in fact they are the only thing that presents a challenge Is 50 really the absolute canon number? If 50 dragons line up and breath their breaths, combing the WK's army, it's going to be devastating. After that, they would destroy siege engines, particuliar threatening units such as the trolls and Nazgul, and then they would continue devastating the units. Dragons have scales dude... arrows won't just go in as if it was flesh. Natural AC, is it not?
And oh yeah, only thing that presents a challenge... never mind the flying fortress, or the Draconians, or the dragon lord, or Soth... You just seem to toss things away when confronted by numbers... They help, but they're not all thats in the battle.


Look, the Wk has hundreds of thousand of orcs, from Angmar, Morgul, and Mordor, not counting Trolls, Olag hai, Uruk hai and his elite human forces. The blue dragon army in contrast has a few ten thousand, and many of those are weak creatures like goblins. Soth has maybe a hundred lesser undead and not even as score of elites. The sheer ratio of kills will destroy him. Goblins, normal skeletons and zombies are weaker than orcs on average, and the humans, orges, hobgoblins and dragononicans can be swarmed en mass. Soth can't kill enough orcs to make up for hte forces he losses. Every dragon the WK brings down will lower the kill ratio greatly, and every dragon that, even for a moment, is paralized in fear gives more time for the orcs to swarm Soth's forces en mass. Even if the Wk literally runs out of orcs, Uruk hai, trolls, Olag Hai, and cross breeds, he can send his armies of humans, who are actually skilled (varies on what tribe we are talking about but still) with his own elite of Barrow wights and lesser wraiths/Mumikil. Siege weapons will be launching flaming rocks at soth's forces, some possibly hitting a stray dragon, and the nazgul will cause Soth's foot troops to be paralized with fear, or at least some of them. Goblins, hob goblins and ogres aren't particrually loyal and might break after some fighting and the fear/despair, along with the black shadow and black breath, and the humans might just break from the fear itself (including the dragon riders). The Dragons and dragon folk are resistant yes, but not immune, and some of them will break and flee, or fall sick from the black shadow, get stricken by the black break, or simply give up and let themselves die due to despair, not to mention direct magic attacks. Its the kill ratio, Soth can't kill enough to make up for the amount of men that the Wk kills in the same time. He might destroy 40 % of the WK's forces, only to find himself with 90% of his gone I thought we weren't counting Mordor. Also, Soth will only lose 90% of his forces if he is utterly incompetant. Remember, he has dragons and draconians and a flying fortress, all of which he can use to his advantage quite well.


And i remind you that the WK was able to hold the force together on foot, so even if he is felled he is still able to keep the army together. And the other eight nazguls. If all eight nazguls are some how not on the field (which wouldn't happen) even then the orcs won't break unless they think they are actually losing, which will be hard. Gothmog can do what he did in the books and rally them, remember the kept fighting long after the nazgul left the field, and even then the Olag hai and the human forces will keep it up. Yet when the WK was slain, they broke up, and cracked like an egg. Soth could always challenge WK to a one on one duel, and if he wins, WK's forces are super demoralized. Didn't they falter when confronted with the riders of Rohan? Well, we have dragons, so I'm not sure how effective they'll be when confronted with a force more deadly than riders.


1) Dragon's bite attack does not work that way. It has no ablity to over come magical protections. Hence can't work on him
2) Um, we already did that, he can't be hurt by normal weapons and that includes dragon teeth. If it bite him, the teeth simply wouldn't peirce. You have no evidence to prove that a dragon's teeth can actually hurt him. They might throw him off the nazgul, but it can't hurt him, and besides, he can simply morgul shank the dragon Provided he can penetrate the natural armor (scales man). And to my beliefs, WK's protection does not just outright stop attacks, only protect him from harm. Thus, a dragon biting him in half could work... would break his teeth from the BB, but still. Besides, Tolkien never said the shield worked against dragons, nor did Gandalf say "Not even a dragons jaw could kill him", and their teeth don't fall into the usual category of weapons. Actually, it would work exactly to the specifications of the prophecy, teeth not being blades and dragon not being human nor hobbit male. :smallwink:


1) Um, what are you talking about? Osgiliath is taken not by a night attack, unless you mean the movies? In the book it is held by a full force (actually that is true in the movies as well) and it is swarmed. Hell, even in the movies it is swarmed, the night attack was only so they could get the siege weapons over quickly
2) Um, the Wk has undead, you know, being one and all that. Barrow wights and lesser wraiths serve him as well. And you over estimate Soth's undead. he has 13 skeleton knights, a small number of banshees, and maybe a few dozen skelton and zombies, who even orcs can deal with. Nothing big. Soth has limits on his direct magic, but the Wk has fear, despair, black shadow, black breath, plague, fire, ice, and a flaming sword. 1) My bad, didn't get that far in the actual books. Need to get back to my 3 in one trilogy edition, after I'm done with the current book in the Sword of Truth.
2) 13 skeleton knights said to have the touch of death, which is a big deal. And actually, WK has his limits as well, though they are dependent on Saurons current power. LotRs magic is not unlimited, elsewise its broken.


You argument has no facts to back it. The thing is, high magic doesn't not make other magic suddenly void. EE wields a very powerful magic sword, that doesn't mean he can over come the WK shield, because EE's magic sword (called pointy) simply doesn't have any anti magic, or anti shield, or anti undead powers. Well, theres not much fact in crossing two worlds. I never said the other magic was void, nor was the stronger one grew against a weaker one... GET IT STRAIGHT! I'm saying that if one magic force crosses another, the one stronger wins, the other one breaks. True, some energy could be used up in the process, but still one should win.
Your argument relies mainly on Tolkiens word. I'm not seeing many other facts backing you up. Using the word of god from one world in another doesn't work full out. Heres one example. A shield in a very low magic setting is immune to the weapons there, but note there are no magic weapons there either (and this isn't LotRs by the way). The guy with the shield moves to a very high magic setting, filled to the brim with epic magical weapons. His shield is of a weaker nature than the weapons, and is broken to tiny shards. Going by the verbatim words in the weaker world, the guy was invinceable... He was vastly out powered though when placed in the extremely powerful setting. You see my point? Authors word sin't as canon when crossed into another world, as new possibilities need to be considered. Sure, things should affect each other in the same way (Like Frostmournes soul stealing should still work, or WK's morgul blade still has its wraith thing),but as for things with a "all weapons but" or "Nothing will harm him" label, we need to consider new possibilities.
Will post more later.

[Mr. Scaly]

My name is Steven, not Stephen. Stephen the lich doesn't sound as good as Steven. Alright, so the magic blade barrier wasn't effective against every single one. Honestly, sounds like a rip off of what WK has going. Jon Irenicus... Pardon me, must go look him up.
*Poof*
*Poof*
Back.
I remember playing that game in the first few chapters. It was very interesting. Jon was a pretty cool guy. Destroys his own lair, didn't he? Never found out his true scheme. I do remember seeing the ending on Youtube, and his demise at a couple of little imps. Course, he couldn't use his magic so that is pardoned.
As for a battle against the LK... I think not... What I read is Jon tried to be a god... LK achieved technical god hood and a ton of power. Necromancy too. I think, judging from what I just read of him, he would rather join the LK, since it would further his own goals, and he could learn a thing or two from the LK in "How to be a bad guy".

Steven then, my mistake.

I'm sure that if LK had a gang of heroes dogging him at every turn, refusing to die he wouldn't have had such an easy time of it. Hehe.

EE, it's been a while since I read the first two trilogies...I honestly don't remember if Soth dispels in them. Does he ever do it in Ravenloft?

1) Hmm...which begs the question, if the Black breath can be used at range like that why bother with the Black Shadow?
2) Personally I thought the first four books were pretty good and thought the series should have ended there. Things rapidly went downhill after that though. But I digress... Early in the war Napoleon beat the Austrians through innovative tactics with artillery that they'd never seen before. By Waterloo Wellington and Blucher had seen many battles over the last decade and had the chance to watch Napoleon's tactics in action. They knew his favourite strategies. Not so with Soth and the Witch King.


1a) Um, he never actually fights unarmed. He is fast and has magic, but i've never seen him fight without a weapon.
1b) but soth doesn't fight like that, would he think of freezing the weapons (remember this is soth, not you, who has to think quickly.)
2) Alright, ice is usless, but fire could work
3) he says Raistalin could destory him, not hte only one. He also notes he could defeat those others, but that isn't because of spell resistance (Death knight isn't that high), its just because he is very skilled
from
EE

1)a) Then a fisticuffs match should be mercifully short. Heh. Seriously though,
1)b) Dang...he wouldn't right off the bat. But if WK uses his magic to break Soth's weapon, Soth would surely realise that he could do the same thing.
2) On a side note, why doesn't ice work against undead in DnD? I never understood that.
3) Considering that they're all archmages (except for Dalamar at the time) one could argue that his spell resistance WOULD let him defeat them.

[EvilElitest]

What tactics? All your saying is that the breath and the nazgul would kill them before they could do anything productively.

I'm talking about the kill ratio. There are only half a hundred dragons and non of them are the old ones. As of such, they are the only real threat to the forces of the WK.

Basically here is what they do. have the mass fodder attack first, IE the orcs, with trolls and cross breeds mixed in. the Nazgul will ride high. The fear, black shadow, despair will greatly weaken the ground forces. However the Nazgul can keep their army commanded, the enemy army demoralized while trying their best to evade the enemy dragons. The riders will be effected greatly, so weakened dragons. The dragons have Resistence yes, but as per D&D rules, they have to resist every single effect. So first they have to resist the fear effect. Now rememeber the WK's fear was so powerful it kept an entire city from even being able to shoot and we wasn't even at full power. So the one s who are effected are going to be out of the fight for a while, and every panicking dragon is another dragon taht isn't attacking the orcs, which means more orcs to kill enemy forces, who are also panicked. Then their is the crushing despair, so dragons who resist that save will have to over come the next one. Then there is the black shadow, IE a nasty cripplying sickness, the crop duster effect. Which means the land forces and the dragons have to resistent (to be fair, it isn't that hard apperently to avoid, but some dragon might get it. The nteh nazgul are going to be shooting their arrows at them, only only one arrows needs to get through for the dragon to go down. Then the dragons who get close enough will be effected by the black breath. and so they are essentially out of the fight. If the dragon is weakned before hand and is young, it might not even bring do the fell beast, which is pretty big in its own right, and the nazgul can morgul shank them. repeat taht process eight time. And don't forget, the Wk is able ot use more direct magical attack,s and guess who the targets are going to be. NOw also bear in mind, the dragons who resist have to catch the fell beasts first before bringing them down. Which means that they are wasting precious time that they could be spending on destroying the orcs, which gives more time for the orcs to destory Soth's ground forces. And it will be even harder when you count in their dying, panicking, or out right hopeless riders, who won't be making things easier once soth's grond forces are destory, they can just swarm his elites en mass. The dragons who attack the orc directly will do damage yes, but not enough, there are just way to many orcs to kill and too few of Soth's forces to take up the slack. Also archers. Almost all of the Wk's forces have some sort of long range. The orcs and Urukhai and cross breeds use poisoned arrows. They will lose a lot of dudes certainly, but arrows will get into the dragons and when you throw in poison (which if it doesn't kill them, will slow them down and make them less dangerous and easier to hit. The sheer mass of men the Nazgul have at their command will simply anhilate the enemy forces. You still haven't addressed this point, that the Nazgul's effect on the foot troops will make them so useless taht the orcs will simply swarm them. Remember, once the foot army dies, its all over. The orcs will just swarm Soth and it doesn't matter how many he takes down, once he dies, he is dead for good, win for the WK


I am saying that the Dragons could counter such tactics rather quickly by taking out the ONLY flying units that they have And I see it pointless that any of them could get hit by a nazgul up close and personal, since the dragons have reach for goodness sack, which means that they chomp at the head of the creature, and since a shortsword could hack one's head relatively easily, then rows of sharp teeth should have much trouble.
Um, what?
1) the fell beast are just going to let the nazgul's passive effects do the job, and spend their time evading them. The fell beast don't have a bad reach, they just aren't as powerful as dragons, do nothing there. And a long sword cut one's head on in melee, what is your point
2) still havne't countered passive effects



Most mundane fire from the orcs would be pointless between the armor and damage reduction.
the armor is the damage reduction, the dragons don't wear common armor because it would slow them down. And it doesn't matter how many arrows fail to get through, with the sheer mass of orcs shooting, plenty will still hit them, and most of those arrows are poisoned. Its the mass. Also the younger dragons don't have great DR


The orcs I highly doubt have any real experiance fighting dragons, and the WK may or may not have fought any foes who fly. The dragons have had such experiance and are quite intellegent in their own right. And how come theres only like half a hundred? I thought there was more. Poisen? Their fortitude save overcomes it most of the time, presuming that they even make past their scales. Fear? They got magical resistances and hell of some will to boot. Wraith arrows? They may beable to hit, but they wouldn't be able to shoot too many of those before they get burned to a crisp.

1) Well they fight giant eagels, and the WK isn't a moron (hes actually pretty smart) All he has to do is order them to shoot the dragons, that isn't exactly rocket science
2) Because in the books there are only 42 blues and a few greens/blacks. Around 50. not much of a force.
3) And a lot of arrows. They have to keep over coming it and eventually they will fail, and when they fail they will be easier to hit, and then they will be more likely to fail and it just goes down hill form there
4) Ok, stop saying burned to a crisp, none of them use fire
5) And they have to over come five seperate saves in a row, every single round. Yeah, some will fail, and those that don't will have insane riders
6) It only takes on arrow, they are covered in black breath
7) Fell beasts are intent on evading remember. They can just let the passive ablities do the work. It will take a group of dragons to corner one to bring it down, and that means they aren't attacking orcs, and some will go down to nazgul effects


I've read on the battle of the five armies, and I didn't see any advanced tactics. The only tactics I tend to see being employed by the orcs are rather simple and tend to be simply overpower the other with your massive numbers.
I was talking about the good guys winning through tactics. The pincer movement, the use of defense ect. The orcs didn't have any real commander only Blog, but they did over come all the defences (and circled around the mounton as well


On the whole power level thing, what is wrong with that? I find it makes sense, course I would put it on a smaller scale than 0 to ???. I don't see how it can't be used in LoTR or WoW. Heck, I dueled a mage that was lower level than me, he was amped up to be a blaster, perfect in PvP. I was a Destruction spec Warlock. My area was in PvE for the most part. He dueled me to make me feel stupid, but about half his spells were resisted, all mine made it through. My higher level, along with some amped up magic resistances, provided me into overcoming him. That says powerlevel all over it. Your not honestly gonna cast a fireball at a level 50 as a level 10 and expect it to make it through.

Oh dear gods. When you get a specific enchantment, that has nothing to do with power level. your talking about normal combat for gods sake, not over coming specific enchantments. Iti s like the protection against magic weapons deal, if you have that spell, magic weapons, not matter how cool, can't hurt you unless they have a specific enchantment



And for that protection from magic weapons spell, how could you get that casted on you? Was it a wizard spell or a cleric spell or what? And what level could you actuelly use it? Such a thing sounds Awesomely powerful, and if it was balduer gate was expanded to include more of the world. I for one, who enjoyed the beginning of the Baldur Gate games, understand that some of these games have limitations. Could you in Baldurs Gate sneak attack using a ray spell? No. Besides, I think thats when you get into the epic system, which is broken.

1) Its a spell, look it up. I think its like 7th level, maybe 6th
2) A ray spell isn't a magic weapon, so the spell wouldn't work
3) Not really, most people have other options on hand. Hell, just use a normal weapon. Mages tend to use it, so a normal sword will help




Flying... Fortress... No matter how we set up the battlefield, it can fly over the enemies, and it is impossible for the orcs to breach because they cannot reach it. Only the Nazgul can, and they would likely fail, no matter their skill. A useful tactic would be to place archers on the fort, and rain arrows down on the orcs. Wizards can cast a few spells, if given the oppurtunity. Plus, it serves as a garrison for Soths soldiers, which could be sent down. This is also where Kitiara stays with her dragons.


It is also bloody slow. So once it gets into place, the Wk can simply let his aura do the work. Considering how much the land force are going to be suffering, the forces in the fortress would ether help or just hide in the fortress, where the Wk can just use a plague or his fear. the fotress is great for certain situations, this isn't it



I actually believe theres more than one way to kill them. Hunt them in the day, or set up a pointy trap involving a giant spike going through the wolf, for instances. Silver is a weakness that is used to slay them, not to be mistaken for the ONLY way to kill them, just as Garlic is not the only way to kill a vampire.
Actually they are immune to normal weapons, so giant stake isn't going to work. You can kill them with magic weapons that over come the DR but that isn't my point.


A better example, protection from magic missal. No matter how powerful the mage casting the spell magic missal, even if he shoots 25 blasts all doing 150 damage, it won't over come the proteciton. If he casts something else, like fire ball he is fine but



well, good for them. Now here we have better soldiers and possibly better tactics. Soth isn't an idiot, and even if strategy isn't his bag, what about Kitiara.
1) better troops? You mean the goblins, orges and hobgoblins, who will break? The weak humans? The pathetic lesser undead? yeah
2) Also less people, less orginization, less defense, and more out matched


Is 50 really the absolute canon number? If 50 dragons line up and breath their breaths, combing the WK's army, it's going to be devastating.

No it isn't. At their age, each dragon will kill a score a round. This is D&D dude, it isn't going to be like song of fire and ice where the army is destoryed in one blast



I thought we weren't counting Mordor. Also, Soth will only lose 90% of his forces if he is utterly incompetant. Remember, he has dragons and draconians and a flying fortress, all of which he can use to his advantage quite well.



I'm not, i'm counting the forces who came and helped out during the siege of gondor. And if he wants to keep his flying units in the fortress fine, his ground forces will be destoryed, and he can simply let his fear drive his living forces made. Also with Soth in the flying fortress, how is he going to hold the fort of the black rose?



Yet when the WK was slain, they broke up, and cracked like an egg. Soth could always challenge WK to a one on one duel, and if he wins, WK's forces are super demoralized. Didn't they falter when confronted with the riders of Rohan? Well, we have dragons, so I'm not sure how effective they'll be when confronted with a force more deadly than riders.
1) Actually, they didn't break. Remember, they rallied and came back, it wasn't until aragorn and tens of thousands of troops took their rear that they broke.
2) True, but Soth has to manage to challenge him. the Wk is a bit of a bastard, he tends to only challenge when he feels it will actually make things easier, and he does cheat (not in the duel itself, just setting it up) so.



Provided he can penetrate the natural armor (scales man). And to my beliefs, WK's protection does not just outright stop attacks, only protect him from harm. Thus, a dragon biting him in half could work... would break his teeth from the BB, but still. Besides, Tolkien never said the shield worked against dragons, nor did Gandalf say "Not even a dragons jaw could kill him", and their teeth don't fall into the usual category of weapons. Actually, it would work exactly to the specifications of the prophecy, teeth not being blades and dragon not being human nor hobbit male.
1) Morgul blades are tough, the Mirthril shirt ability to shrug off its attack was a testiment to its power
2) Alright, he would just be stuck in the things mouth, an it would die of teh BB, or at least go in a coma. he is immune to non specific attacks, see quote, dragons provide no exception, (dragon bite attacks don't over come even DR)
3) the prophecy is something else entirey
4) If you can destory his shield, then the teeth can hurt him. Would comatose the dragon, but still kill or wound the WK




1) My bad, didn't get that far in the actual books. Need to get back to my 3 in one trilogy edition, after I'm done with the current book in the Sword of Truth.
2) 13 skeleton knights said to have the touch of death, which is a big deal. And actually, WK has his limits as well, though they are dependent on Saurons current power. LotRs magic is not unlimited, elsewise its broken.

1a) Fair enough, Olgilaith is taken during a direct attack
1b) Sword of Truth ug.. Do your self a favor, if you want grim gritty fantasy, read song of fire and ice. has sex and voilence like the other one, but doesn't use it so heavy handledly and is better written
2) I've looked them up, or at least skeleton warriors. They are tough, and i mean really tough (magic resistence, immunity to turning) but no death touch
3) the WK's is at his "full power". he has limits, Ie he can't block out the sun like his master did, but his magic is still in effect





1) Hmm...which begs the question, if the Black breath can be used at range like that why bother with the Black Shadow?
2) Personally I thought the first four books were pretty good and thought the series should have ended there. Things rapidly went downhill after that though. But I digress... Early in the war Napoleon beat the Austrians through innovative tactics with artillery that they'd never seen before. By Waterloo Wellington and Blucher had seen many battles over the last decade and had the chance to watch Napoleon's tactics in action. They knew his favourite strategies. Not so with Soth and the Witch King.
1) Black Breath is stronger, but i get the impression it is like a single target range thing. Only merry fell, not the people around him. So while the BS is weaker, it does an automatic crop duster
2a) Ug, hated the whole series. Song of fire and ice does the job so much better
2b) Yeah, but the Austrian command was well.........crap. Napoleon has the super chrisma and elite army (eventually) and he knew his enemy would make mistakes. Soth doesn't have unique tactics to get out of this situation, and the WK isn't going to make a total moronic mistake



1)a) Then a fisticuffs match should be mercifully short. Heh. Seriously though,
1)b) Dang...he wouldn't right off the bat. But if WK uses his magic to break Soth's weapon, Soth would surely realise that he could do the same thing.
2) On a side note, why doesn't ice work against undead in DnD? I never understood that.
3) Considering that they're all archmages (except for Dalamar at the time) one could argue that his spell resistance WOULD let him defeat them.


1a) I think if both are unarmed, it would most likely go to Soth, unless he was too wounded
1b) Hmmm, maybe, but i would be hard and he will be hit a few times. And he has to break three weapons. Wait, how would the ice work on a flaming sword
2) Um, i think it has to do with cold not actually doing anything. Like, if i die of the cold, i die because my body freezes, but undead don't feel and their bodies are already cold so...
3) I think it is his awsome. his spell resistence is good, but not immunity by any means
from
EE
from
EE

[Steven the Lich]

1) the fell beast are just going to let the nazgul's passive effects do the job, and spend their time evading them. The fell beast don't have a bad reach, they just aren't as powerful as dragons, do nothing there. And a long sword cut one's head on in melee, what is your point
2) still havne't countered passive effects You seem to be just tossing aside the dragons as if they're nothing. You realize that the dragons don't even need to get close in order to take them down. Breath man... Breath. Better... Lightning breath. I imagine if the Fell Beasts are able to get their head chopped off by a girl with a sword, they can't take a blast... heck, an arrow was enough to kill one, whether or not Legolas shot it. My point of the sword is they are incredibly weak when confronted, and it could be they rely on the WK's passive effects too much. Don't forget, the other ring wraiths don't have the same luck as the WK.


1) Well they fight giant eagels, and the WK isn't a moron (hes actually pretty smart) All he has to do is order them to shoot the dragons, that isn't exactly rocket science
2) Because in the books there are only 42 blues and a few greens/blacks. Around 50. not much of a force.
3) And a lot of arrows. They have to keep over coming it and eventually they will fail, and when they fail they will be easier to hit, and then they will be more likely to fail and it just goes down hill form there
4) Ok, stop saying burned to a crisp, none of them use fire
5) And they have to over come five seperate saves in a row, every single round. Yeah, some will fail, and those that don't will have insane riders
6) It only takes on arrow, they are covered in black breath
7) Fell beasts are intent on evading remember. They can just let the passive ablities do the work. It will take a group of dragons to corner one to bring it down, and that means they aren't attacking orcs, and some will go down to nazgul effects 1) Yeah, thats true... but they're not scaled flying magical beasts though, now are they? :smallwink:
2) They named exactly 42 blues, or only 42 blues showed up? Yes, theres a difference.
3) Provided a decent number of those arrows hit. Dragons fly man, they're capable of moving. Orcs hardly have that much successful experience with them.
4) What about the greens and blacks? I always thought that lightning breath or acid breath were secopndary abilities alongside with fire. Well, acid is liquid fire, so to say, and lightning starts fires, so... what is the problem. cripsy is better to say that electracuted to the core. Maybe thats why the orc smores tasted so horrible.
5) Ugh... Why is it when we bring in D&D characters, we must also bring in their exact mechanics and complicate things, while WK and his orcs are home free? Just seems incredibly stupid.
6) Why would that be so? Does the WK breath on every arrow that his army uses?
7) Dude, there are 50 dragons, they can diverge to take a fell beast down. You realize also, that Soth can force the WK into a one on one battle if he can remove the means of which WK intends to assualt his fortress with. IE, the siege engines, trolls... You getting this? Whatever number of dragons go after the WK and his homies, the remaining number can go for the units.


Oh dear gods. When you get a specific enchantment, that has nothing to do with power level. your talking about normal combat for gods sake, not over coming specific enchantments. Iti s like the protection against magic weapons deal, if you have that spell, magic weapons, not matter how cool, can't hurt you unless they have a specific enchantment Well, not everyone agrees with that logic. And remember that sometimes these settings don't have god-like beings among mortals.


It is also bloody slow. So once it gets into place, the Wk can simply let his aura do the work. Considering how much the land force are going to be suffering, the forces in the fortress would ether help or just hide in the fortress, where the Wk can just use a plague or his fear. the fotress is great for certain situations, this isn't it You have the book, right? When the good guys steal it, see how long it takes them to get it to where they want, and how far away that place is. I think you may be exagerrating its slowness.


Actually they are immune to normal weapons, so giant stake isn't going to work. You can kill them with magic weapons that over come the DR but that isn't my point. But it is mine. Thank you.


1) better troops? You mean the goblins, orges and hobgoblins, who will break? The weak humans? The pathetic lesser undead? yeah
2) Also less people, less orginization, less defense, and more out matched 1)Goblins are good at crafting traps I think. Ogres are way stronger than an average orc and I imagine they can toss many guys about. The undead are tough, I understand. Touch of Death... remember? Oh, and you excluded the draconians.
2) Not nessecarily. Dragons count for quite a bit.


No it isn't. At their age, each dragon will kill a score a round. This is D&D dude, it isn't going to be like song of fire and ice where the army is destoryed in one blast Actually, this is a vs. thread. Doesn't go by the same rules, only borrows from them. If we're going to limit the dragons to D&D, the orcs and stuff should be limited to their own RPG limits.


I'm not, i'm counting the forces who came and helped out during the siege of gondor. And if he wants to keep his flying units in the fortress fine, his ground forces will be destoryed, and he can simply let his fear drive his living forces made. Also with Soth in the flying fortress, how is he going to hold the fort of the black rose? If he can fly over Minas Morgul and take it from within, that fortress wouldn't be as important. He could also attack the orcs from both sides if this works, and would gain a very defensive position.


2) True, but Soth has to manage to challenge him. the Wk is a bit of a bastard, he tends to only challenge when he feels it will actually make things easier, and he does cheat (not in the duel itself, just setting it up) so. And now we know who would win in an honorable duel. :smallwink: Soth is cool in that manner, a villain yet honorable.


1) Morgul blades are tough, the Mirthril shirt ability to shrug off its attack was a testiment to its power
2) Alright, he would just be stuck in the things mouth, an it would die of teh BB, or at least go in a coma. he is immune to non specific attacks, see quote, dragons provide no exception, (dragon bite attacks don't over come even DR)
3) the prophecy is something else entirey
4) If you can destory his shield, then the teeth can hurt him. Would comatose the dragon, but still kill or wound the WK 1) Guess what... Mithril is said to be as tough as dragonscale...
2) WK would be then incapitated, as the dragons mouth would be shut.
3) Maybe, but still technically falls into the category. :smallwink:
4)I'd say kill. Logically, WK without his shield can't survive being chomped.


1b) Sword of Truth ug.. Do your self a favor, if you want grim gritty fantasy, read song of fire and ice. has sex and voilence like the other one, but doesn't use it so heavy handledly and is better written
2) I've looked them up, or at least skeleton warriors. They are tough, and i mean really tough (magic resistence, immunity to turning) but no death touch
3) the WK's is at his "full power". he has limits, Ie he can't block out the sun like his master did, but his magic is still in effect 1b) I actually find it great. Good comments, interesting setting, character development. A little dark, yes, but regardless, a good read.
2) We can find his minions stats but not Soth's. Funny. Maybe they don't have a touch of death, but being described that way most likely means they are extremely skilled with weapons that their touch could describe as ,literally, death.


1) Black Breath is stronger, but i get the impression it is like a single target range thing. Only merry fell, not the people around him. So while the BS is weaker, it does an automatic crop duster
2a) Ug, hated the whole series. Song of fire and ice does the job so much better
2b) Yeah, but the Austrian command was well.........crap. Napoleon has the super chrisma and elite army (eventually) and he knew his enemy would make mistakes. Soth doesn't have unique tactics to get out of this situation, and the WK isn't going to make a total moronic mistake 1) Nothing to say.
2a) According to the comments, it seems to be a epic capable of sweeping the country like Tolkien did with LotRs.
2b) How do you know that exactly? Besides, Kitiara is there too. She may be able to come up with clever tactics if Soth is unable.


1a) I think if both are unarmed, it would most likely go to Soth, unless he was too wounded
1b) Hmmm, maybe, but i would be hard and he will be hit a few times. And he has to break three weapons. Wait, how would the ice work on a flaming sword
2) Um, i think it has to do with cold not actually doing anything. Like, if i die of the cold, i die because my body freezes, but undead don't feel and their bodies are already cold so...
3) I think it is his awsome. his spell resistence is good, but not immunity by any means 1a) Didn't someone provide a quote showing Soth getting bitten by a dragon and shrugging it off?
1b) The sword isn't really flaming the whole time. Besides, Soth could break the mace, and maybe keep his own sword to battle the WK. Now theres a battle.
2) I think cold can still work on undead. Stiffen the joints, make it easier to shatter them, what not.
3) We need Soth's stats.

I can't help but notice WT's question went unanswered, even though I re-posted it twice now. Accusation to me for avoiding the question, but I address it at least, and attempt to answer it. Before you pass judgement onto people, make sure you're not doing what you are accusing them of, why don't you.

[WalkingTarget]

A point regarding "shield" type spells and overcoming them.

1) LotR magic is definitely less accessible/omnipresent than in a lot of fantasy settings. I think this is fully conceded by all sides.

2) The most prominent example of "magic" in Arda is the creation of "magical items" as most of what the Elves make counts, but this is mostly exemplified in that what they make is precisely the right tool for whatever job is at hand (that is, their swords are good at doing swordy things, and maybe are extra-special weapons against whatever foe was prominent in the war they were forged for, but don't include a lot of OMGWTFBBQ!!!!1! extra powers otherwise). The other "magic" is closer to the idea of spells, but get used much less frequently. However:

3) There is absolutely no way to gauge how "powerful" these spells are when stacked against other settings. There may not be as many spells allowed in Arda as there are in Azeroth, Greyhawk, Randland, or whatever other fantasy setting you want to bring up, but relative strengths is not something you, me, or anybody can say for sure with the possible exception of an agreement made between the creators of each setting. For example, let's say that Tolkien and Robert Jordan got together and decided whether or not a cuendillar sword would be broken after striking the WK. Without input from both authors it's a non-decidable scenario. As is, frankly, the WK's shield set up against anything that wasn't written by Tolkien. The point here being that lack of other spells does not mean that the existing spells are weaker than those in other settings.

As for logic, take these predicates.

WK shield is stronger than Weapons in Arda = A
Weapons in D&D are stronger than Weapons in Arda = B (by this I mean that weapons in Tolkien aren't "epic" or whatever)
Weapons in D&D are stronger than WK shield = C

The theorem you're trying to prove is that
A ∩ B → C

But saying that A and B imply C is similar to saying that since x>1 and y>1 then y>x which is not always true (as y could be 2 and x could be 3 as easily as the other way around). The "more power wins" argument relies on the assumption that the WK's shield is incapable of being stronger than other settings and doing so is a fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_the_Consequent).

4) An extended example: WoW has the Paladin ability called Divine Protection which is first available at level 6. This is a power that prevents all damage from any source. There are more, better versions later on (longer duration, being able to attack while it's active, etc) but the basic idea of "nothing can harm me, no not even that" is there from level 6 onwards. I doubt that they'll even allow Frostmourne (the most OMGWTFBBQ weapon in the setting that I'm aware of) to bypass this level of protection: think about that, if a level 6 Paladin ran into the biggest bad-ass in his setting he'd be safe for a good 6 seconds at least because of this power. There is nothing in the world that prevents the WK's shield from being exactly as powerful as this shield with the exception that the way that magic items work in his setting allows for the creation of a weapon that is tailor-made for hurting him specifically despite his defenses.

Likewise, one could say that there is nothing stopping one of the Eldar from making a sword that could bypass a paladin's Divine Protection (other than there'd have to be a damned good reason for the elf to think that the paladin was Evil, power derived from a giant sentient wind chime might count I guess) because that's the sort of thing Tolkien's Elves do - make exactly what they need to for a given situation, not the Swiss Army Polearm approach that other settings seem to enjoy. Saying that the Eldar "obviously" couldn't relies on the same assumption as above (honestly, saying that they could do so uses the same argument, but that's just another symptom of this being ultimately undecidable; at least this one is simply extrapolating a being's canon-abilities into another setting, not making blanket "nuh uh" statements and referring to "power levels" or what-have-you).

Talk about "holy weapons" being able to bypass the WK's protections is a concession his proponents have made to make him more interesting in VS. threads, but if one operates on the far end of the continuum regarding the strength of those protections there isn't really any reason to allow anything except abilities tailor-made to hurt him specifically. This isn't the only interpretation of Tolkien's work (after all, it's not my personal interpretation), all I'm saying is that it is as valid a reading of it as any given the limited information we have regarding it.

I have to agree with EE and Tyrant here in that if one operates under the "effective shield spell" version of the WK there is no reason to think that simply throwing a "more powerful" weapon at it would have any greater effect unless it has specific abilities focussed around bypassing protections. For example: I think that the Great Weapon Godslayer from Steven Brust's Taltos novels would do the trick because disrupting spells is one of its primary functions (as opposed to Blackwand, Pathfinder, or Iceflame which have other abilities). Likewise Shieldbreaker from the Book of Swords series by Fred Saberhagen can defeat any armed foe (it's the unstoppable force that breaks its own setting's immovable objects) and specifically negates magic when doing so. I'm not necessarily making a ruling on who would win the thread in general, but the logic in this particular point goes to the defender.

However (and this is a big "however"), this all breaks down when you start to talk about spells or similar effects instead of just "this weapon could hit the WK and hurt him". If a WK proponent concedes that a damaging spell cast at the WK works just fine, we get down to the point where we have to worry about at what point a weapon's "spell-like effects" come into play. If a weapon has the ability to deal direct-damage "magic" to a target without actually doing the actual physical sword damage first, then there might be a way around it (which doesn't come up in LotR because this class of item doesn't exist there). To go back to one of the other settings I mentioned, there is a class of particularly nasty "magical" weapon in Brust's novels that destroy a person's soul (and kill them, obviously) with the slightest scratch, but they have to actually cause the scratch first. If somebody has a protection spell up to prevent them from being injured, then they're safe. On the other hand, a weapon like the Shadar Logoth dagger from The Wheel of Time can "corrupt" a person just by being around it (wounds are another thing entirely). If a particular magical effect on Soth's weaponry doesn't actually require the target to be "hit" or whatever first, then he might be in business. I don't know Soth well, so I couldn't make an opinion on this either way.

Long winded (sorry, I tend to do that once I get going), but that's my opinion on what's been an extended back-and-forth for a few pages now.

[EvilElitest]

You seem to be just tossing aside the dragons as if they're nothing. You realize that the dragons don't even need to get close in order to take them down. Breath man... Breath. Better... Lightning breath. I imagine if the Fell Beasts are able to get their head chopped off by a girl with a sword, they can't take a blast... heck, an arrow was enough to kill one, whether or not Legolas shot it. My point of the sword is they are incredibly weak when confronted, and it could be they rely on the WK's passive effects too much. Don't forget, the other ring wraiths don't have the same luck as the WK.

1) I view dragons like war elephaunts. Nasty, but not an insta win, and cna be destroyed
2) will you stop making that sterotype that Eowyn was some sort of court lady wearing a dress. She was a trained warrior, a shield maiden, and one of the best fighters in all of rohan
3) And i remind you that in both cases where the were hurt, the nazgul was attacking directly, and so was in range. What is easier to hurt, a dude charging at you, or a dude staying away
4) An arrow to the heart from the best archer in the world. yeah
5a) same luck? What does that mean? Do you mean same powers, because the fear, despair, black shadow, black breath are all the same. They don't get his direct attacks however
5b) the fell beasts just need to stay out of range. The breath weapon can't be cast every round, it has limited range, and it isn't an insta kill (through it would hurt). The fell beasts are very very fast however, and so the just need to circle the battle field. They aren't going to fight, they just want to stay aloof long enough for the nazgul effects to come into play. remember the ground forces will be suffering greatly




1) Yeah, thats true... but they're not scaled flying magical beasts though, now are they?
2) They named exactly 42 blues, or only 42 blues showed up? Yes, theres a difference.
3) Provided a decent number of those arrows hit. Dragons fly man, they're capable of moving. Orcs hardly have that much successful experience with them.
4) What about the greens and blacks? I always thought that lightning breath or acid breath were secopndary abilities alongside with fire. Well, acid is liquid fire, so to say, and lightning starts fires, so... what is the problem. cripsy is better to say that electracuted to the core. Maybe thats why the orc smores tasted so horrible.
5) Ugh... Why is it when we bring in D&D characters, we must also bring in their exact mechanics and complicate things, while WK and his orcs are home free? Just seems incredibly stupid.
6) Why would that be so? Does the WK breath on every arrow that his army uses?
7) Dude, there are 50 dragons, they can diverge to take a fell beast down. You realize also, that Soth can force the WK into a one on one battle if he can remove the means of which WK intends to assualt his fortress with. IE, the siege engines, trolls... You getting this? Whatever number of dragons go after the WK and his homies, the remaining number can go for the units.

1) Same plan through, except dragons need to fly lower to use their breath.
2) 42 blues showed up, along with one or two blacks and greens. Around 50 or so, give or take one or two. Mr. Scaly provided the source a ways back
3) And if they attack a hoard, arrows are going to be everywhere. Rememeber, the Wk can literally afford to spare more orcs shooting than attacking the enemy land forces. That is a lot of arrows. And for the breath weapon to be effective, they need to go well within arrow range. And no matter where they go, they will have arrows going at them. A lot of arrows will miss sure, and most will simply not get into the scales. But some will hurt them. And some of those taht do, the dragons might shrug off the poison, but eventually they will fail a save. Its the massive amount. The most powerful dragons they have will only have DR 10, most will have DR 5 It isn't enough of a protection against masses of arrows, not counting massive boulders
And don't forget that the siege machines shoot hellish fire that burns far hotter and spreads faster (on stone) used during the siege. So even if a dragon accidently gets hit, he is going to be in trouble. Also if enough arrows go into the wings, he is pretty much grounded
4) there are very few greens and black. And no, Blues only shoot lighting, greens and blacks only shoot acid (one in a cone one in a line). The lighting doesn't do fire damage. When you say burn to a crisp, you imply that its fire, which will spread (IE, cause more chaos) but acid and lighting will only really hurt the target its aimed at.
5) Because Dragonlance creatures are made with an RPG in mind, while WK's forces are not. Basically, the WK has five passive effects. That means the dragons have to make five saves. If you want the D&D benifits, IE spell resistance, you have to use it correctly
6) Correction, every arrow the nazgul shoot will be insta death if it hits. There will be a few WK arrows mixed in with the forces, like the one that hit Faramir
7a) And soth can't hurt the Wk if the WK is flying or commanding the army from the center
7b) and it will take a group of dragons to bring down one fell beast, let alone nine. The dragons wiill be forces to corner them and then take it down, which will take time and energy. Other dragons will be effected by ether the black breath, despair, black shadow, fear, or the WK's magic (or even nazgul arrows). So that is a lot of dragons who aren't fighting the main force. And of the dragon that are fighting the main force, they are going to be shot at and thrown rocks at, as there are less of them attacking the orcs, so easier targets. Most importantly, the dragons can't go around destorying the Wk's important units, because they are going to have their hands full Keeping Soth's Army Alive.






Well, not everyone agrees with that logic. And remember that sometimes these settings don't have god-like beings among mortals.

And not everybody agrees taht the world is round, that doesn't make it so. You have no evidence to back it up

And god like beings make no difference. No difference what so ever. why are you insisting on this idea of a "Power level" when no such system even exists in ether setting.


You have the book, right? When the good guys steal it, see how long it takes them to get it to where they want, and how far away that place is. I think you may be exagerrating its slowness.

Um, Mr. Scaly provide a quote on its speed, it went pretty slow. Its only real advantage is that it could go over the mountains


But it is mine. Thank you.
Um, and you point is? You haven't proved anything.


1)Goblins are good at crafting traps I think. Ogres are way stronger than an average orc and I imagine they can toss many guys about. The undead are tough, I understand. Touch of Death... remember? Oh, and you excluded the draconians.
2) Not nessecarily. Dragons count for quite a bit.

1a)Goblins are cowardly, disloyal, disorginized and have low will saves. When the fear and despair come about, they will break. That is pretty much all of soth's archery units right there
1b) Orges are stronger yes, but they have very low will saves. out for the count
1c) only 13 undead have this so call touch of death, 13 knights, 1 death knight, 3 banshees, and then a few hundred skeletons and goblins
1d) I was counting the enemies who would go down quickly and easily without much trouble. Some of the draconians will go down to to the nazgul effects of course, but those that stay will put up a fight. However, they aren't enough and they aren't powerful enough to actually make enough of a difference
2) To young, to few. The dragons simply do no have the power to made enough of a difference on such a huge army. Nazgul and archers aside, they can be held off by the Wk's bats (including giant bats) and crows (maybe Cerbain, i don't know if that is only Saraman/Sauron, i don't think he uses that) while the Nagul passive effects come into play, and the ground forces go down



Actually, this is a vs. thread. Doesn't go by the same rules, only borrows from them. If we're going to limit the dragons to D&D, the orcs and stuff should be limited to their own RPG limits.
They are limited to their cannon powers. Orcs and such don't come from an RPG, they come from ME, so nothing there. They are limited to their cannon abilties


If he can fly over Minas Morgul and take it from within, that fortress wouldn't be as important. He could also attack the orcs from both sides if this works, and would gain a very defensive position.

Um, by the time he gets there, he would have to go through Angmar and the Wk's land army, and the Wk can simply crush his land forces as the fort slowly inches towards Morgul, then reinforce it


And now we know who would win in an honorable duel. :smallwink: Soth is cool in that manner, a villain yet honorable.

True, Soth is a cool villain. But in a duel well
1) I think Soth is a better swordsman frankly. But he would lose his sword once he hits the WK, and be forced to resort to fisticufs
2) and then we are at Me and Mr. Scaly argument
3) also, the Wk, unlike Soth, is a bit of a bastard and doesn't play fair. He'd resort to a duel if he felt that taking out soth was nessary for vicory, or if Soth is doing so much damage that he wants to take him out for the sake of quite victory. But as long as teh dragons are around, the Wk will focus on them.


1) Guess what... Mithril is said to be as tough as dragonscale...
2) WK would be then incapitated, as the dragons mouth would be shut.
3) Maybe, but still technically falls into the category. :smallwink:
4)I'd say kill. Logically, WK without his shield can't survive being chomped.

1) ME dragon scale, which is more powerful than dragonlance.
2) And the Dragon would get BB and go into a coma, so while you right (wouldn't hurt him, just make him stuck in its mouth) it won't work forever, and you lose a dragon in the process
3) No, the spell and the prophecy are entirely differenct. We aren't counting the prophecy
4) Bite attack isn't that great. the WK has armor. he wouldn't go down in one bite, but he would die after a few chomps yes


1b) I actually find it great. Good comments, interesting setting, character development. A little dark, yes, but regardless, a good read.
2) We can find his minions stats but not Soth's. Funny. Maybe they don't have a touch of death, but being described that way most likely means they are extremely skilled with weapons that their touch could describe as ,literally, death.
1) It has screwed up morals, bad writing. But really, it has nothing you can't find somewhere else better. Really, try song of fire and ice
2) We have Death knight stats, just not Soth's stats specifically (IE, we have a general idea of his powers, just not what spells he has). Anyways, Skelton warriors (he only has 13) are really really good, no argument there. They are tough. But they can't take the day, just have a group of Olag hai take them on and bring them down



2a) According to the comments, it seems to be a epic capable of sweeping the country like Tolkien did with LotRs.
2b) How do you know that exactly? Besides, Kitiara is there too. She may be able to come up with clever tactics if Soth is unable.

2a) Song of fire and ice? Yeah, i'd say that was the second best fantasy series next to LOTRS. If you mean sword of truth, look it up on TV tropes
2b) because he hasn't used any unique plans. He isn't stupid by any means, but he isn't Ender. Also Kitiara is mortal, and so will be suffering from fear/despair/black breath/black shadow as she is on the dragons


1a) Didn't someone provide a quote showing Soth getting bitten by a dragon and shrugging it off?
1b) The sword isn't really flaming the whole time. Besides, Soth could break the mace, and maybe keep his own sword to battle the WK. Now theres a battle.
2) I think cold can still work on undead. Stiffen the joints, make it easier to shatter them, what not.
3) We need Soth's stats.
1a)Small dragon, that was me. It still hurt and he shrugged it off, but any high level fighter cna do the same
1b) Soth wouldn't start breaking weapons until he needed to, he doesn't normally resort to that. Being the better fighter, i'd imagine he would hit the Wk first, then find himself without a weapon. Also the sword flames when the Wk willed it
2) I suppose, direct ice effects might, but i think that undead don't command their bodies with nerves like humans do, but rather with unholy energy. so
3) We have death knight stats however.



I can't help but notice WT's question went unanswered, even though I re-posted it twice now. Accusation to me for avoiding the question, but I address it at least, and attempt to answer it. Before you pass judgement onto people, make sure you're not doing what you are accusing them of, why don't you.

Walking target? What question?





However (and this is a big "however"), this all breaks down when you start to talk about spells or similar effects instead of just "this weapon could hit the WK and hurt him". If a WK proponent concedes that a damaging spell cast at the WK works just fine, we get down to the point where we have to worry about at what point a weapon's "spell-like effects" come into play. If a weapon has the ability to deal direct-damage "magic" to a target without actually doing the actual physical sword damage first, then there might be a way around it (which doesn't come up in LotR because this class of item doesn't exist there). To go back to one of the other settings I mentioned, there is a class of particularly nasty "magical" weapon in Brust's novels that destroy a person's soul (and kill them, obviously) with the slightest scratch, but they have to actually cause the scratch first. If somebody has a protection spell up to prevent them from being injured, then they're safe. On the other hand, a weapon like the Shadar Logoth dagger from The Wheel of Time can "corrupt" a person just by being around it (wounds are another thing entirely). If a particular magical effect on Soth's weaponry doesn't actually require the target to be "hit" or whatever first, then he might be in business. I don't know Soth well, so I couldn't make an opinion on this either way.
Direct magic can over come the Wk's shield of course, and a weapon that over comes magic in general or is made of magic (like say, a moon blade) could hurt him yes.

On your specific examples through, if that dagger doesn't scratch him, then he is fine. Hence shield. The dagger however, if the WK wasn't a wraith, then it would effect him certainly. It would, because he is you know, an undead wraith, but it would over come the shield.


Soth has direct magical attacks, so he has something going for him there
from
EE

[WalkingTarget]

Walking target? What question?

He's referring to this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4527086&postcount=222) post from the previous page. StL has brought is up twice recently as neither my original query nor his own repetitions of it have been addressed by any party.

I haven't seen anybody bringing up that point recently as an argument for anything, so I'm mollified on the subject. I'd like to see it addressed if anybody tries to use the "he's intangible" argument, though.

[EvilElitest]

He's referring to this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4527086&postcount=222) post from the previous page. StL has brought is up twice recently as neither my original query nor his own repetitions of it have been addressed by any party.

I haven't seen anybody bringing up that point recently as an argument for anything, so I'm mollified on the subject. I'd like to see it addressed if anybody tries to use the "he's intangible" argument, though.

i thought we addressed that a while back. If you get ride of the shield, he can be hurt normally by any weapon


Wait, are you saying that ghost touch weapons and things that can over come incorporal effects couldn't hurt him after all if he is in fact corporal, just using a magic spell?
from
EE

[WalkingTarget]

i thought we addressed that a while back. If you get ride of the shield, he can be hurt normally by any weapon


Wait, are you saying that ghost touch weapons and things that can over come incorporal effects couldn't hurt him after all if he is in fact corporal, just using a magic spell?
from
EE

Uhh... if I read that right...

I mean that ghost-touch doesn't do anything special for or against him as my reading of LotR doesn't imply that the Nazgul are ghosts or intangible in the first place. A ghost-touch sword would do as much as a non-ghost-touch sword all other things being equal simply because the effect that they counter isn't a factor.

Edit - ok, a few more re-readings there. Yes with the last thing you said. My interpretation is that the Nazgul are, in fact, corporeal at all times in the narrative and the WK's protection (or whatever) is closer to just a generalized protection spell.

[EvilElitest]

Uhh... if I read that right...

I mean that ghost-touch doesn't do anything special for or against him as my reading of LotR doesn't imply that the Nazgul are ghosts or intangible in the first place. A ghost-touch sword would do as much as a non-ghost-touch sword all other things being equal simply because the effect that they counter isn't a factor.

Edit - ok, a few more re-readings there. Yes with the last thing you said. My interpretation is that the Nazgul are, in fact, corporeal at all times in the narrative and the WK's protection (or whatever) is closer to just a generalized protection spell.

actually, that is a very good point. I'll concede that. So frostmourn couldn't hurt them then.
from
EE

[Mr. Scaly]

Wow, I missed a lot.

No time now but as to the number of dragons, dragonlance lexicon records for the Blue Wing prior to the battle of Palanthas show that there were some 42 blues serving with the army. Since the Blue Wing merged with the remnants of the Green Wing before the attack it makes sense that there were some greens, and Test of the twins shows that there were blacks involved too. I'd say about a dozen greens and blacks together. So about fifty, give or take.

[Tyrant]

Reply to Steven. Spoilered for those not interested.

I'm saying that logically, the sword of a god that is magical could break a magical shield if it is weaker,
But, is it weaker? That is part of my point that you admit you can't really answer. Sure, we can compare what we see them do, but that doesn't give us an answer. Due to the very vague nature of LotR magic, I don't think assuming is very wise. It's magic. It can do whatever the hell it needs to even if that includes shattering your "might is the answer to everything" philosophy with massively illogical powers. That's what I am trying to tell you. Magic doesn't work by a thoroughly researched and defined set of rules like real world physics (or chemistry, mathematics, etc). It's entirely possible that the WK's shield could have one and only one weakness and nothing beyond that can actually kill him. I've admitted it is also possible I am wrong. But, we don't know as we have no real way to measure the two against one another so proclaiming it will shatter under whatever uber demon harbinger of doom bringing when he hits it with his magical scepter of demonic evil doom (from hell) is nothing but assumption built on shaky principals that may or may not apply. My problem is that your conclusion isn't founded on solid principals. Individually some of them may be sound, but taken as a whole they don't work without making assumptions (that may or may not be reasonable). It may very well be right and I could be wrong.

or a sword that is just of a stronger magic than the shield could overcome it. What you are saying is that even if the sword is godly powerful, and vastly stronger than the WK's shield (and don't give me any crap that the shield does not work on a power scale, as LotRs doesn't offer weapons on the power scale of Frostmourne, Sargeras' sword, etc.), couldn't get through it simply because "Sorry, the weapon wasn't designed to harm this dude".
How is it giving you crap? LotR weapons don't work that way. They either do something or they don't. LotR magical "duels" work through battles of willpower. LotR weapons don't work on the DBZ principal.

Small skit.
Sargeras: Muahahahahaha, you shall pay for challenging me, Witch King.
WK: Brign it on, goat man.
Sargeras: Feel my wrath! (Attacks, WK is unscathed) wtf?
WK: My shield protects me from any swords excluding anti-undead or anti wraiths.
Sargeras: But I leveled worlds with this sword, I slew some of the greatest foes, I brought devastation in my wake with this sword. Your shield is of a vastly inferior nature. How does that make sense?
WK: Because it blocks ALL swords but holy ones.
Sargeras: My wrath is more terrible than the gods! I destroyed countless worlds! A being of your meager existence can not fathom my power!
WK: Doesn't matter, you need holy.
Sargeras: ... Damn you...

Not very credible, now is it? I also imagine the sword being so much larger than the WK himself... I mean, Titans (Which Sargeras is) are giants to say the least. The sword is likely oozing of magical power that he's gained from countless worlds. When it broke in two, he still had half and it became utter evil... And you say no matter what, it needs to have a meager holy enchant?
It is credible if his shield is absolute, and if Sargeras is an idiot (sword doesn't work, why not try direct magic). It's like adamantium which can't be broken with physical force. It has one way which it cannot be destroyed. There are other ways to destroy it however (this also applies to the adamantium)

Where is that BS button when you need it...
I haven't found it in searching for it after your posts yet. I'll let you know if I find anything.


No, that there is flawed.
Saying that all magical shields are invinceable unless confronted with something meant to destroy them... Absolute nonsense. Something doesn't need to be specifically designed to destroy a shield in order to break it, not even in the case of magic.
I didn't say all magical shields. I assume they work differently in every setting. D&D shields usually have a limit to how much of what type of damage it takes to bring them down for instance. I am saying with what we know of this one it isn't beyond the scope of possibility that it operates in that manner. You're insisting that it can't and that's what I have a problem with.

Alright, now answer this one. Could he make any other kind of sword not following the WK's cited weaknesses, and would it not work? If you say he can't, you are doubting the power of gods vs. a meager mortal, WK or otherwise.
If he makes just another sword, it's just another sword. He created that world and I assume he can choose to bend the rules he put forth. If he chooses not to, why would it work?

And you've been twisting my words to mean something entirely different for how many pages? You concede that there are other ways to kill him, but you simply refuse to accept that the shield could be destroyed by something other than a holy sword. Really, if what you said was true, the WK has a protection greater than anything Sauron ever had, because not even a kamehameha can scratch him, excluding "holy" weapons. Going by LotRs actually, not EVEN holy weapons can get through, and that is just plain broken.
So first LotR magic is basically worthless, then it's broken powerful? Okay. As for Sauron, perhaps there is a reason he doesn't have that. Maybe he does have that (we never see his current form go out and fight just befor ethe ring is destroyed) because he got smart after getting beat down by dudes with swords. Maybe he can only turn that kind of magic to others and not upon himself (the mysteries created by an ill defined magic system are fun). Maybe there is a colossal drawback? There are other possibilities that I could keep listing that are all equally possible.

I seriously doubt Tolkien would make it that way. You claim that he would have mentioned an exception, but heres one that would sound awkward all the way.
"His shield could be destroyed if Illuvatar forged a sword and entrusted it to a human who would use it to destroy the WK." Seriously, how would that affect his story in any way, and thus be even worth mentioning? You say that he can go on and on for detail, but I think he has to cut back on some details.
How does the immense detail given to every setting the companions go through ( I felt like I lived there at one point) while barely giving any villains many real lines help the story? Don't ask me. That's just the way he wrote it. Some things got immense detail, while others aren't what people expect if they have read mroe recent books (like the aforementioned villain time). The means to his destruction were given mention in as much detail as could be expected. Couple with the immense details in other parts, one can assume (yes, it is an assumption) that since he bothered to mention it in the first place it was important enough to include anything else of even remote relevance. You disagree and here at least have reasonable grounds to do so as I said it is purely an assumption.

But you realize that LotRs have no such swords like Frostmourne nor anything rivaling it.
No. You don't say. You've only said that a million times. I've 2 of the books thus far and saw the movies. I know there are no swords like that. That doesn't change the underlying situation.

Thats just it in your first sentence. It is an absolute applying to all swords but the barrow blades, and when an absolute like that is defined with the word all, we can't just casually and/or idiotically presume that it means every single world. No, that world. It becomes more complicated when you apply it to other worlds, because you need to consider that there could be magical weapons capable of bypassing it that don't fit in the categories the world of origin cites.
So, if I were to take a regular old longsword from this world (the real world, to be clear) and stab teh WK, it should hurt him right? I'm using a weapon from a world that wasn't considered at the time of the writing of LotR so it wouldn't be included. That is the path your logic leads down. Likewise, how do I know WoW magic even works in LotR or against it's characters?

(And yes, it is an absolute to bypass divine defenses, which is a natural defense sure, but then again, the WK's defense is natural as well, is it not?)
Hold on there. Did you really just say that one of Frostmourne's abilities is absolute? As in, applies everywhere? Does that make you the pot or the kettle?

Your blindly sticking to the words of an author in some other authors world.
And you're not doing the same thing how exactly? You're argument makes the basic assumption that you can easily judge the relative power levels of the two universes. This requires you to take the authors words as truth for both worlds. Then you are crossing them over and saying that absolutes from one don't apply because the other appears to be more powerful. That is taking the words of that author (the more powerful setting) as truth when comparing to others. You're doing it in a more round about way, but you're still doing it.


You are insulting me (Yet again) because I don't agree with you, no matter how many times you fail to convince me.
I've long since given up trying to convince you.

What you say is WK's shield is unbreakable, and you just would leave it there without further discussion.
It should be quite obvious I am open for discussing it. I've been doing it for several pages now. I also didn't say it was unbreakable.

What I'm saying is it is more than likely a weapon with superior magic (Sargeras' sword for instance(Strongest weapon in the universe of Warcraft)) can break the shield, and you say that's impossible because the shield doesn't act on a magical power scale, though in its own world there are no such weapons as the ones we are putting forth, and Tolkien would not bother making a exception for weapons that wouldn't affect his own world in any way, nor could he make exceptions for foreign weapons he couldn't have known to be existent in another fantasy in the future. You say if there was an exception, he would have made it... he didn't (Or maybe more likely he couldn't), and so you presume that the shield is invinceable but to the Barrow blades.
Obviously Tolkien couldn't (and wouldn't) have made exceptions for weapons that were beyond his story or after his death. Does WoW specifically spell out that one of these weapons can hurt Sauron? The WK? I'm guessing not. Yet you examine their properties and conclude that they can. That is what is being said of the WK's protection. It is reasonable to read from the quote that might can't overcome his shield. It had to be something made specifically to do it. Applying that concept, is Frostmourne such a weapon (or being more broad does it have the properties of said weapon)? Your stance is that might overcomes anything which directly contradicts what he was trying to say.

I see the lambs, where's the shepard they follow?
Trying to find your flock of WoW fanboys or what?

Oh yeah, heres another easy but maybe more complicated way to bypass the defenses. Drop a wrecking ball from the air (Say... 200 feet) onto the ant hill. Maybe shoot it with guns, maybe a cannon. More ways to skin a cat than one, I always say. And brute force can sometimes be the answer.
I believe I have said that brute force can be the answer. You are saying that it absolutely is the answer. That's the problem.


It would've died saying "The Barrow blade isn't the only thing effective". I was just setting the record straight, and you and EE decided to jump on it. You started this again, not I. Just so we're clear on the record.
So that was me posting under your name in the first post of the page?


D&D magic... not LotRs magic... D&D tends to be stronger. This doesn't help your point any at all.
I honestly fail to see how it hurts it. It doesn't matter where the spell came from. The point is that in one very commonly referenced fantasy setting their is a spell involving absolute protection that was written by someone who actually understood what absolute meant.

Question, is this Dark Alliance, or classic Baldurs gate? And does such a feat exist in normal D&D? Remember, they've been altering the D&D world to make it more balanced, so it could be that the Magic Weapon resistance was erased, or altered.
So, you're counter is questioning if they changed it because it was too powerful? What does that have to do with anything? That would be very powerful. Magic used by someone with half a brain would be. That's the point.

This post sums up most of my thoughts on the subject in a better way than I was able to.

A point regarding "shield" type spells and overcoming them.

1) LotR magic is definitely less accessible/omnipresent than in a lot of fantasy settings. I think this is fully conceded by all sides.

2) The most prominent example of "magic" in Arda is the creation of "magical items" as most of what the Elves make counts, but this is mostly exemplified in that what they make is precisely the right tool for whatever job is at hand (that is, their swords are good at doing swordy things, and maybe are extra-special weapons against whatever foe was prominent in the war they were forged for, but don't include a lot of OMGWTFBBQ!!!!1! extra powers otherwise). The other "magic" is closer to the idea of spells, but get used much less frequently. However:

3) There is absolutely no way to gauge how "powerful" these spells are when stacked against other settings. There may not be as many spells allowed in Arda as there are in Azeroth, Greyhawk, Randland, or whatever other fantasy setting you want to bring up, but relative strengths is not something you, me, or anybody can say for sure with the possible exception of an agreement made between the creators of each setting. For example, let's say that Tolkien and Robert Jordan got together and decided whether or not a cuendillar sword would be broken after striking the WK. Without input from both authors it's a non-decidable scenario. As is, frankly, the WK's shield set up against anything that wasn't written by Tolkien. The point here being that lack of other spells does not mean that the existing spells are weaker than those in other settings.

As for logic, take these predicates.

WK shield is stronger than Weapons in Arda = A
Weapons in D&D are stronger than Weapons in Arda = B (by this I mean that weapons in Tolkien aren't "epic" or whatever)
Weapons in D&D are stronger than WK shield = C

The theorem you're trying to prove is that
A ∩ B → C

But saying that A and B imply C is similar to saying that since x>1 and y>1 then y>x which is not always true (as y could be 2 and x could be 3 as easily as the other way around). The "more power wins" argument relies on the assumption that the WK's shield is incapable of being stronger than other settings and doing so is a fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_the_Consequent).

4) An extended example: WoW has the Paladin ability called Divine Protection which is first available at level 6. This is a power that prevents all damage from any source. There are more, better versions later on (longer duration, being able to attack while it's active, etc) but the basic idea of "nothing can harm me, no not even that" is there from level 6 onwards. I doubt that they'll even allow Frostmourne (the most OMGWTFBBQ weapon in the setting that I'm aware of) to bypass this level of protection: think about that, if a level 6 Paladin ran into the biggest bad-ass in his setting he'd be safe for a good 6 seconds at least because of this power. There is nothing in the world that prevents the WK's shield from being exactly as powerful as this shield with the exception that the way that magic items work in his setting allows for the creation of a weapon that is tailor-made for hurting him specifically despite his defenses.

Likewise, one could say that there is nothing stopping one of the Eldar from making a sword that could bypass a paladin's Divine Protection (other than there'd have to be a damned good reason for the elf to think that the paladin was Evil, power derived from a giant sentient wind chime might count I guess) because that's the sort of thing Tolkien's Elves do - make exactly what they need to for a given situation, not the Swiss Army Polearm approach that other settings seem to enjoy. Saying that the Eldar "obviously" couldn't relies on the same assumption as above (honestly, saying that they could do so uses the same argument, but that's just another symptom of this being ultimately undecidable; at least this one is simply extrapolating a being's canon-abilities into another setting, not making blanket "nuh uh" statements and referring to "power levels" or what-have-you).

Talk about "holy weapons" being able to bypass the WK's protections is a concession his proponents have made to make him more interesting in VS. threads, but if one operates on the far end of the continuum regarding the strength of those protections there isn't really any reason to allow anything except abilities tailor-made to hurt him specifically. This isn't the only interpretation of Tolkien's work (after all, it's not my personal interpretation), all I'm saying is that it is as valid a reading of it as any given the limited information we have regarding it.

I have to agree with EE and Tyrant here in that if one operates under the "effective shield spell" version of the WK there is no reason to think that simply throwing a "more powerful" weapon at it would have any greater effect unless it has specific abilities focussed around bypassing protections. For example: I think that the Great Weapon Godslayer from Steven Brust's Taltos novels would do the trick because disrupting spells is one of its primary functions (as opposed to Blackwand, Pathfinder, or Iceflame which have other abilities). Likewise Shieldbreaker from the Book of Swords series by Fred Saberhagen can defeat any armed foe (it's the unstoppable force that breaks its own setting's immovable objects) and specifically negates magic when doing so. I'm not necessarily making a ruling on who would win the thread in general, but the logic in this particular point goes to the defender.

However (and this is a big "however"), this all breaks down when you start to talk about spells or similar effects instead of just "this weapon could hit the WK and hurt him". If a WK proponent concedes that a damaging spell cast at the WK works just fine, we get down to the point where we have to worry about at what point a weapon's "spell-like effects" come into play. If a weapon has the ability to deal direct-damage "magic" to a target without actually doing the actual physical sword damage first, then there might be a way around it (which doesn't come up in LotR because this class of item doesn't exist there). To go back to one of the other settings I mentioned, there is a class of particularly nasty "magical" weapon in Brust's novels that destroy a person's soul (and kill them, obviously) with the slightest scratch, but they have to actually cause the scratch first. If somebody has a protection spell up to prevent them from being injured, then they're safe. On the other hand, a weapon like the Shadar Logoth dagger from The Wheel of Time can "corrupt" a person just by being around it (wounds are another thing entirely). If a particular magical effect on Soth's weaponry doesn't actually require the target to be "hit" or whatever first, then he might be in business. I don't know Soth well, so I couldn't make an opinion on this either way.

Long winded (sorry, I tend to do that once I get going), but that's my opinion on what's been an extended back-and-forth for a few pages now.

[Bago!!!]

Oh, only 50? I was thinking 300. Alright, I concede. Soth's army is screwed. :smallfrown:

To Tyrant:
1) That makes no sense, the whole thing about magic not having restrictions. Of course it has restrictions. You don't see the WK pulling off stuff like Morgoth does do you? So unless the WK is the equivilent of Morgoth, he wouldn't stand against said harbringer of doom wielded by the devourer of countless worlds.

And assumptions is what makes the world go round. We can assume that the WK could beat Soth or we can assume otherwise, but we will never know cause it will never happen because its not real.

2) To be fair, it takes willpower and control to pull off magic in most worlds. WoW is no exception. Mages resort on their very will to bend the Twisting Nether to their will. And the reason why LOTRs don't work that way is because they are not so amped up on the magic scale.

3) This is what I hate about most threads with LoTRs. Absolution is just plain repeditive to the point where I am sick of it. And no Tyrant. Your saying it has one of destroying, everything else doesn't work. You say that because thats how works, and you know what, it does to some degree, but I don't think it would work in this case, simply because the power equilvilance of Sargeras would be Morgoth, not some lap dog to Sauron.

4) I found it! Its all over your post!

5) I have a problem with Absolution in vs Threads. Your insisting that Absolution is everything there is in LoTR Magic. I disagree.

6) No idea what this means.

7) No, thats not what he is saying. He is saying that what your saying is making it broken, that it is a lower magic setting in comparison to a much higher magic setting. All those things of other possibilities? Assumptions.

8) The world runs on assumptions, doesn't it.

9) Yes, which is that we are all putting forth assumptions that we can claim mean something, when they mean BS.

10) Okay, first off, What are you smokign? Second, why aren't you sharing?

11) Consistancy in this thread is incredibly tough. If we both took the time to organize our thoughts right, then by the time have replied to one post, 10 more posts would have already been made. I'am slow enough as it is, and since you nor anyone else deems it proper to wait for us we are rushed. So sue him if he makes a mistake here and there.

12) Enough with the assumption arguement. This thread is run on assumptions, life is run on assumptions. Moving on fromt hat, what we are trying to do is not make one world seem more true, but make a middle ground, and we can't seem to do that with absolution in one world or the other. So you favor LotRs Absolution, I favor a more flexible approach.

13) Then why are you still here talking to him?

14) No, but your saying that only Holy can penetrate it. Thats what is really getting under our skin.

15) Does any law says that Soth and the WK could be in a fight against one another? Not really.

16)No, we are saying that enough might can over come anything.

17) We're not fanboys, atleast no more than you are to Tolkien's writings. We enjoy the game, the setting and the storyline is good. Pure and simple. We don't think Soth could beat the WK simply because he's kickass. We don't go by awesomeness, we go by what we think and feel.

18) No, we are not saying that it is the only awnser, only that it is a viable awnser if applied properly.

19) No, it was the dog who did it.

20) I think where the spell comes from matters a hell of alot. Subtractive magic from the SOT would mean WK's unmaking IMO.

21) He thinking about using updated rules, which isn't a wrong idea. How about someone awnsers his questions though?



And can I just say, we're going in circles? Its only five people right now.

[Steven the Lich]

I must say Tyrant, you made that an pain in the ass to read. My arm sores from so much clicking...


Oh, only 50? I was thinking 300. Alright, I concede. Soth's army is screwed. NO! Don't abandon me in this hour, Bago!
I think that 50 dragons together alone is a good number.
Wait, the Blue dragonwing merges with the green dragonwing... and all they get is like 5-10 dragons? And there are no adults whatsoever in their ranks...
This is all sounding questionable. Are we sure
Oh, and I counted up the numbers of the dragons looking up the blue dragonflight, and I counted 57 dragons. 59 counting Eluctrus and Thunderkill.


actually, that is a very good point. I'll concede that. So frostmourn couldn't hurt them then. And we're back to page 1...
Frostmourne is the will extension of the LK, it steals souls, it allows the LK to steal hosts by merging with their souls to become stronger, it is chaotic by nature and capable of bypassing divine armor, known to corrupt wielders, and damn powerful they had to get a guardian to lock it up... And saying all that, is assuming it does squat against the WK really justified? Just because LotRs doesn't work on a power scale, as you claim?


If he makes just another sword, it's just another sword. He created that world and I assume he can choose to bend the rules he put forth. If he chooses not to, why would it work? So if Illuvatar makes a sword of such proportions, like the greatest sword ever, and if he chooses not to go by the WK's weaknesses, it wouldn't make a scratch? That just isn't credible, you must realize.


This post sums up most of my thoughts on the subject in a better way than I was able to. WT seems to be the best man on your side right now through that post he made.


So that was me posting under your name in the first post of the page? Nope, that was me setting my point straight for the record. Wasn't at all aiming to restart the whole thing which ended in "Barrowblades are not stated to be the only thing effective".

Going to be on hiatus for about a week. When I come back, I hope to do some debating with you, WT, as you seem to be the voice of reason here.

[EvilElitest]

Oh, only 50? I was thinking 300. Alright, I concede. Soth's army is screwed. :smallfrown:

Exactly. Personall i think the Wk could still reasonably win even if Soth had 500 dragons, through it would be way to close. Any more, and the Wk would have to play a defensive position. Even 50 can do damage, but that is too few

1)He doesn't mean it in that sense, he means that it doesn't work on the power level style that some other magics do.
2) True, but breaking the already cast spell would requre some sort of despil effect. If the caster was powerful enough, then he might pull it off, assuming he had the will
3) He is refering to cannonical stuff. It is like WT paladin example, and Mr. Scaly's BGII example
4) He has actually based his argument off something cohesive, with actual evidence,
5) The book makes no mention of a limit and makes clear the specific things needed to over come it
6) Steven is saying that is the all powerful lord of ME made a powerful sword without the need qualties to hurt the Wk, could it hurt the WK. Tryant is counting that point
7) The assumption you make is low magic, one that is unbacked. Me has powerful magic, it is just is less flashy than say WoW
8) that is the only evidence we have one hte matter. Unless you care to produce some cannonical evidence that we don't have, then we have to work under the assumption that when he says nothing else could hurt him, nothing else could hurt him
9) The power of the sword is irrelevant if it lacks the special qualities needed, that is his point, one that you seem unable to counter
10) He just destroyed one of your main points by using your logic
11) First off,hypocricy, second off, Frostmourn can't over come magical buffs
12) A more flexiable approach? More like the approach that helps you the best
13) the same reason why anyone debates, to make the holes in his argument clear to everybody else
14) Because that is how the shield is designed by the Author, only holy or something that can simply ignore magic all together can break it
15) so? That changes nothing
16) Without any bassis
17) You using an argument without any real backing nor basis. yeah. he isn't a fanboy, because he has admitted quite a few times several things that could hurt the Wk.
18) Except you ahve not backing for it
19) That doesn't change his point
20) So if it comes from a setting you support its absolute, but it isn't absolute when it is ME?
21) Dark alliance doesn't follow D&D rules really. And yes, the spell comes
from classical, look it up



Wait, the Blue dragonwing merges with the green dragonwing... and all they get is like 5-10 dragons? And there are no adults whatsoever in their ranks...
This is all sounding questionable. Are we sure
Oh, and I counted up the numbers of the dragons looking up the blue dragonflight, and I counted 57 dragons. 59 counting Eluctrus and Thunderkill.
1) It was destoryed. Most died, joined other flights, stays in a rogue band, or simply left, Dragons don't like groups.
2) They are adults, just not many, most of the dragons are small and that means they have to be young. There are adults and maybe even some olds, but fewer
3) Are you sure you didn't count twice
4) Ok, and 59 is still way to small of an amount


And we're back to page 1...
Frostmourne is the will extension of the LK, it steals souls, it allows the LK to steal hosts by merging with their souls to become stronger, it is chaotic by nature and capable of bypassing divine armor, known to corrupt wielders, and damn powerful they had to get a guardian to lock it up... And saying all that, is assuming it does squat against the WK really justified? Just because LotRs doesn't work on a power scale, as you claim?
1) Being an extention of his will means nothing
2) No soul to steal, and it only steals when it kills them
3) and chaotic damage doesn't over come even Warcraft buff spells. PLease prove me wrong there, if you have the game, simply cast a shield spell on a unit, then have arthas attack it with frostmourn. If the bonus applies, your right. If not, then your wrong. It over comes divine armor, which is natural
4) and the Wk isn't wielding it, and he is already corrupted
5) It was locked up because of its corrupting ability more than anything else
6) Because you just said a list of niffty powers, that doesn't let the rule of cool break the shield. You need a specific power to over come the shield, which Frostmourn lacks. It is powerful, but that means nothing here. Even within its own world it can't over come absolutes, let along ME
7) If it worked on a power scale, then the Narcil would hurt him. But it can't. So no dice



So if Illuvatar makes a sword of such proportions, like the greatest sword ever, and if he chooses not to go by the WK's weaknesses, it wouldn't make a scratch? That just isn't credible, you must realize
Why not? It is backed up by the all the evidence presented. Just because you say doesn't mean it isn't creditable. If illuvatar wanted to destory the Wk with a sword, he simply needs a specific enchantment


WT seems to be the best man on your side right now through that post he made.
and when ever WT helpts you you claim the same. Oh wait, remember this, WT is neutral. He is like the most impartial dude we have on these forums with a wondrous ability when it comes to quotes and what not. WT was able to draw a logical conclusion from Tyrant's logical arguments

See you in a week
from
EE

[Tyrant]

I must say Tyrant, you made that an pain in the ass to read. My arm sores from so much clicking...
My apologies. I was just trying to not have another post take up half a forum page. I also figured some people wouldn't want to read through all that. There was no intentional attempt to cripple your arm. Despite my disagreement I don't have anything against you personally.

[EvilElitest]

My apologies. I was just trying to not have another post take up half a forum page. I also figured some people wouldn't want to read through all that. There was no intentional attempt to cripple your arm. Despite my disagreement I don't have anything against you personally.

are you going to respond to Bajo, or did my response sadifiying
from
EE

[Mr. Scaly]

Wait, the Blue dragonwing merges with the green dragonwing... and all they get is like 5-10 dragons? And there are no adults whatsoever in their ranks...
This is all sounding questionable. Are we sure
Oh, and I counted up the numbers of the dragons looking up the blue dragonflight, and I counted 57 dragons. 59 counting Eluctrus and Thunderkill.

You found accurate troop statistics?! Where?! I've been looking for months and found nothing! (froths at mouth)

And yeah, the Green Wing took a heavy beating during the Vingaard campaign. Then after the fall of Neraka they set up shop in Khur until the resistance drove them out. Kullek Skullsmasher managed to keep part of the army together then merged with the Blue Wing.

Oh, I did find some other stats. It seems that the Green Wing had some twenty dragons with them in 352 AC four years before the merging.

[EvilElitest]

So the green lost men after that, and merged with the with the blue. If there are 42 blues, that means that 8-17 joined up
from
EE

[Mr. Scaly]

Then again, I think that site I'm using is a wiki.

[EvilElitest]

Then again, I think that site I'm using is a wiki.

fair enough
from
EE

[Mr. Scaly]

So, has this topic been debated to death yet? Is everyone entrenched in their opinions and beliefs? Heh.

[EvilElitest]

So, has this topic been debated to death yet? Is everyone entrenched in their opinions and beliefs? Heh.

well all evidence points to WK wining in terms of large scale battle. I think only Steven belives other wise
frm
EE

[Mr. Scaly]

I give him a large percentage of the odds but not absolute 100% odds, but I think that's how it is.

The one on one battle seems to have deadlocked though.

[Occasional Sage]

Is two months some kind of record for one of these threads? Cuz that's how long this discussion has been going on.

[WalkingTarget]

Is two months some kind of record for one of these threads? Cuz that's how long this discussion has been going on.

The Sauron Vs. Voldemort thread last year lasted almost 3 months and had over 40 pages of posts. I think the mythical Link Vs. Sephiroth thread was longer, but I don't know the duration.

Long durations aren't unheard of.

[Mr. Scaly]

Sometimes they come back to life too. Sauron vs the Lich King lasted some twenty five pages then died off...then clawed its way out of the grave and lasted another ten pages.

[Matar]

Sometimes they come back to life too. Sauron vs the Lich King lasted some twenty five pages then died off...then clawed its way out of the grave and lasted another ten pages.

Won't happen again at least xD. The debate is dead, espescially after how much Blizzard changed there lore around.

[EvilElitest]

The Sauron Vs. Voldemort thread last year lasted almost 3 months and had over 40 pages of posts. I think the mythical Link Vs. Sephiroth thread was longer, but I don't know the duration.

Long durations aren't unheard of.

link vs. Seph was 59 pages i think, and lasted almost a year
from
EE

[Bago!!!]

With only 50 dragons, though whatever damage they would do would be great, it wouldn't be nearly enough. Soth's forces are out number 50 to one, or so.

And no EE, I've just been out of town for a week. :smallsmile:

In a vs. battle, Soth could really win, but in a army battle, Soth loses, much to my displeasure. That is my conclusion, don't tell me I am wrong.

I find it hard to reply to some of your stuff EE... I'am out of the loop right now.



But from my understanding, we have all come to our own conclusions on the Lord Soth vs. Witch King topic.

If that is so, then the current talk of power level is totally off topic. And if thats the case, then we may need to bring the debate to a new topic. How is that with everyone?



Edit 8/7/08: Was it something I said?

[Ben52580]

Some examples of Ariakas' power:

- After Soth bitch-slaps him he turns around ready to reduce Soth to a pile of ash with a spell before realizing he is a Death Knight. By this point in the series Weis and Hickman are playing a bit fast and loose with spell levels and suchlike, but no way is burning somebody to a cinder a first level spell.

- He surrounds himself with a magical shield in Neraka potent enough to keep anybody from stabbing him, at least until Raistlin lowers it from a completely different part of the temple complex.

- I'm fairly sure, though I can't prove it atm, that he was involved in the creation of the Draconians.

Some more Soth trivia:
- His armor, sword etc are reasonably close to indestructable from what I can tell. For one thing he's been using the same stuff for 300 odd years, apparently without cleaning or other forms of maintenence. It also survived the fire that destroyed Dargaard Keep, a fire so hot it burned through rock.

- Raistlin is the only living thing Soth has ever met that he fears. Granted, Soth probably doesn't go on Meet 'n' Greet tours of Krynn, but he did spend a good portion of time kicking around Neraka, which was packed to the gills with priests, wizards and warriors of various and sundry power levels. It also clinches my earlier conclusion that Soth could dominate Ariakas, Dalamar and pretty much anybody else who comes to mind.

- Isn't Soth described somewhere as a being that the gods themselves might fear?

Just got done re-reading the books for the 100th time. Dalamar and Riakas solo Soth and it's not much of a contest. 🤷

[flat_footed]

The Fullmetal Mod: Thread Necromancy is a forbidden art.