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JaxGaret
2008-05-28, 10:15 PM
Whoa. Isn't that a bit... up close and personal?

I'm not personally offended, but I can see how others could be.

Rutee
2008-05-28, 10:19 PM
I wish I could comment properly, really. It's not nearly as fanservice as the wet T-Shirt nymph in 3rd ed MM, but that aside, I cruise Danbooru, so I honestly have no idea what the 0 point is supposed to be for offensiveness.

EvilElitest
2008-05-28, 10:25 PM
mine hasn't arrived yet, but what is it? Is it somehow more fanservice like than 3E?
from
EE

Szilard
2008-05-28, 10:25 PM
Huh? don't really know what you guys are talking about...

Rockphed
2008-05-28, 10:26 PM
For those of us who don't have the time to archive trawl 13 different forums every single minute of every day, could you please link to whatever you are talking about.

JaxGaret
2008-05-28, 10:28 PM
I'm not talking about the girl, I'm talking about the dead guy staring into the camera on the bottom.

Rutee
2008-05-28, 10:29 PM
...what? Dead people? Offensive? IN AMERICA (tm)? No, I don't think so.

JaxGaret
2008-05-28, 10:42 PM
...what? Dead people? Offensive? IN AMERICA (tm)? No, I don't think so.

I can see plenty of mothers writing in with complaints about their young teenage children seeing something like that.

Edea
2008-05-28, 10:49 PM
Actually that's probably one of the best pieces in the book; the parents are more likely to get upset over the fact that [sic:OCCULT] ritual magic is being used to bring him back, not so much that he died from a big hole in his chest.

Sir_Elderberry
2008-05-28, 10:53 PM
Can we get a scan of this page, anyone?

Ryuuk
2008-05-28, 10:56 PM
Its a dead fighter laying on the ground, eyes looking emptily at the reader, as blood runs from his mouth and nose with a small puddle forming under his head.

It looks pretty nice actually, the fact that its a believable amount of blood might get some people though. I don't remember seeing an illustration of someone getting revived as detailed as this. Maybe its his hand though, it looks like its asking the reader to help him.

Edit: Link to part of the pic (http://img520.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fighterxd7.jpg)

EvilElitest
2008-05-28, 10:58 PM
Its a dead fighter laying on the ground, eyes looking emptily at the reader, as blood runs from his mouth and nose with a small puddle forming under his head.

It looks pretty nice actually, the fact that its a believable amount of blood might get some people though. I don't remember seeing an illustration of someone getting revived as detailed as this. Maybe its his hand though, it looks like its asking the reader to help him.

i don't see a problem with that
from
EE

Ryuuk
2008-05-28, 11:01 PM
i don't see a problem with that
from
EE

Me neither, I liked it.

FoE
2008-05-28, 11:04 PM
What, the dead fighter? Pffft. Only if you find the notion of D&D offensive. That's frickin' tame.

Xefas
2008-05-28, 11:07 PM
You see worse things watching the evening news. I wouldn't worry about it.

Rockphed
2008-05-28, 11:08 PM
Are you talking about this? http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/excerpt_4E_rituals1.jpg

Because there is already a thread for that discussion here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81576)

LoopyZebra
2008-05-28, 11:10 PM
The rest of the pic is found on this page, for those curious:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20080528a

Edit: Gah, ninjaed.

purepolarpanzer
2008-05-28, 11:13 PM
Whoa. Isn't that a bit... up close and personal?

I'm not personally offended, but I can see how others could be.

Pffft. I thought it was gonna be something big. Wizards has this one on their site. It's a bit gritty, but if your not prepared for the image of someone dying, you REALLY shouldn't even THINK about D+D. With half the gruesome stuff described, but not shown, in some books (mind flayers sucking brain, creatures ripping out hearts) this looks mild. Just a bonk to the head, looks like.

Sir_Elderberry
2008-05-28, 11:15 PM
A man with a bad nosebleed should scare nobody.

Trog
2008-05-28, 11:16 PM
"It's just a flesh wound." :smalltongue:

JaxGaret
2008-05-28, 11:17 PM
Yes, I know, we're all grizzled internets veterans here, but I'm talking about people who haven't seen things 10x worse online.

Sir_Elderberry
2008-05-28, 11:21 PM
Yes, I know, we're all grizzled internets veterans here, but I'm talking about people who haven't seen things 10x worse online.

Even still. They should have seen worse in movies or on TV. Or in real life, even. I wasn't joking about the nosebleed thing--I've had the rather interesting experience of waking up in a pool of my own blood that my nose decided to stop holding.

FoE
2008-05-28, 11:24 PM
Yes, I know, we're all grizzled internets veterans here, but I'm talking about people who haven't seen things 10x worse online.

Kids see 10X worse in Legend of Zelda, Jax. It's not a big deal.

As the Weapons Master, you should be used to the sight of death ... :smalltongue:

Edea
2008-05-28, 11:26 PM
Now if it was a pic of the dragonborn teabagging the fallen human, that might raise a few eyebrows.

JaxGaret
2008-05-28, 11:26 PM
Kids see 10X worse in Legend of Zelda, Jax. It's not a big deal.

Do they really? I don't play much video games. Even GTA was never as in-your-face graphic as that. Perhaps that's it, it's just the level of realism in the picture... it's like he's lying right there, reaching out to you.


As the Weapons Master, you should be used to the sight of death ... :smalltongue:

Indeed. I was asking for the kids' sake. Do it for the kids!!

FoE
2008-05-28, 11:32 PM
Oh sure. You haven't known horror until you've been raped by the ReDeads. (http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=74) :smalltongue:

This picture does teach us a valuable lesson, however: DO NOT ATTEMPT THE RAISE DEAD RITUAL IN THE MIDDLE OF A DUNGEON!

Edea
2008-05-28, 11:39 PM
Yah, for srs. I mean, it's 8 hours (well, 4, I guess, since he's using a scroll). Better to just TFD the ****er out of the dungeon to a safer spot, maybe?

Chronicled
2008-05-28, 11:44 PM
Yah, for srs. I mean, it's 8 hours (well, 4, I guess, since he's using a scroll). Better to just TFD the ****er out of the dungeon to a safer spot, maybe?

Tactical Fighter Direction? (Heh, puns.)

Grynning
2008-05-28, 11:46 PM
Do they really? I don't play much video games. Even GTA was never as in-your-face graphic as that. Perhaps that's it, it's just the level of realism in the picture... it's like he's lying right there, reaching out to you.



Indeed. I was asking for the kids' sake. Do it for the kids!!

You're referring to the same Grand Theft Auto games that I played right? The ones that allow you to beat a pregnant woman to death and take her money?

Seriously, that picture wouldn't offend my grandmother. The Indiana Jones films are more graphically violent than that and they're rated PG.

Hal
2008-05-28, 11:52 PM
I'll put my vote in for "A little over the top, but nothing I'd write to complain about."

As for "kids" playing the game, well . . . I imagine most teenagers have been exposed to this level of fantasy violence by now. If not, then they're probably not going to be playing D&D anyhow.

The lesson here would be that, if you think your kid isn't ready for an image of that nature, don't let them have the book. I don't know why that's such a hard concept anymore.

Edea
2008-05-28, 11:56 PM
Tactical Fighter Direction? (Heh, puns.)

lol, Tenser's Floating Disk (since anybody can cast it now, and you no longer have to waste spell slots/charges on it, it's a lot more useful. Only 10 gp per use, lasts 24 hours. Not bad).

Also, riding the thing around seems to be much more useful in 4E than in 3E, with the loss of easy-access Fly and the fact that the spell doesn't seem to forbid use of standard actions to make the disk move more squares (probably will get errata'd or updated). Might help with terrain problems (can't float over a pit, obviously, since the disk always hovers one foot above "the ground.")

JaxGaret
2008-05-29, 12:10 AM
You're referring to the same Grand Theft Auto games that I played right? The ones that allow you to beat a pregnant woman to death and take her money?

Yeah, but it looks like a cartoon, basically. The new one may be more realistic..


Seriously, that picture wouldn't offend my grandmother. The Indiana Jones films are more graphically violent than that and they're rated PG.

Perhaps.

tyckspoon
2008-05-29, 12:16 AM
Perhaps.

.. perhaps? These are movies that feature occult forces ripping out hearts and quite graphically melting humans. The scenes featuring the Ark and the Grail are significantly more disturbing than almost any D&D art I've ever seen (some of the more grotesque undead might match them.)

Chronicled
2008-05-29, 12:20 AM
lol, Tenser's Floating Disk (since anybody can cast it now, and you no longer have to waste spell slots/charges on it, it's a lot more useful. Only 10 gp per use, lasts 24 hours. Not bad).

Actually, it'd be better to cut off a piece of him and get out/carry on/etc.


To perform the Raise Dead ritual, you must have a part of the corpse of a creature.

Rereading it, it seems my idea of having every party member (or at least the ones with Raise Dead) carry locks of each other's hair won't pan out. Ah well.

JaxGaret
2008-05-29, 12:24 AM
.. perhaps? These are movies that feature occult forces ripping out hearts and quite graphically melting humans. The scenes featuring the Ark and the Grail are significantly more disturbing than almost any D&D art I've ever seen (some of the more grotesque undead might match them.)

Yeah, you're right, I forgot about that scene.

Jack Mann
2008-05-29, 12:26 AM
Seriously, Jax, what universe have you been inhabiting where this would be shocking? Utah?

Edea
2008-05-29, 12:27 AM
Oh wow, you only need a piece? Piece of equipment: +1 fingernail trimmer (for use on the dead only (TM)).

Apologies, I thought you needed the entire corpse. Wow, that's...an upgrade O_O. And it seems with that ritual, you can raise just about anything, as long as its soul is willing to come back.

Chronicled
2008-05-29, 12:30 AM
Oh wow, you only need a piece? Piece of equipment: +1 fingernail trimmer (for use on the dead only (TM)).

It actually means that in a Tippy world, caniballism would be really easy as a "delicacy" in a restaurant. Keep a small piece of your employee for the Raise Dead, and your patrons can devour the rest. The high cost of the meal would cover the materials for the ritual (plus usual restaurant expenses).


Apologies, I thought you needed the entire corpse. Wow, that's...an upgrade O_O. And it seems with that ritual, you can raise just about anything, as long as its soul is willing to come back.

No apologies warranted; your way is still the most civilized. Keep in mind there's a 30 day max waiting period between death and performing the ritual.

JaxGaret
2008-05-29, 12:45 AM
Seriously, Jax, what universe have you been inhabiting where this would be shocking? Utah?

Sure, Utah works for the hypothetical people I am referring to.

I am from NYC.

Tengu
2008-05-29, 01:06 AM
Is there a rule about offending people similar to Rule 34? If it exists, there is someone who will be offended by it?

tyckspoon
2008-05-29, 01:09 AM
Is there a rule about offending people similar to Rule 34? If it exists, there is someone who will be offended by it?

I don't think it's been formalized, but I recognize it anyway. It makes for a fun game; have somebody name something and then the next person rationalizes a way for it to offend somebody. Bonus points if you can then use the Interblag and actually find somebody who was offended in such a way.

Edea
2008-05-29, 01:11 AM
The word "Interblag" I find offensive. Very much so. MM-HMM.

TSGames
2008-05-29, 01:20 AM
I find page 51 to be far more disturbing than page 297. You got your Yu-gi-oh in my DnD.

Xefas
2008-05-29, 01:21 AM
The word "Interblag" I find offensive. Very much so. MM-HMM.

I find the word "word" offensive because it's two letters away from "whore". And, I find the word "whore" offensive because it's two letters away from "wire". And I find "wire" offensive because 10 years ago, when orcs came to my village, they killed my parents with wires. That's why I changed my name to Sorrow Wireorphaned, a Tiefling who adventures to redeem his fallen people and avenge the death of his family.

Tengu
2008-05-29, 01:27 AM
The word "Interblag" I find offensive. Very much so. MM-HMM.

I find avatar from anime and anime games offensive as heck (I don't use the word "hell" because I find it incredibly offensive too).

Edea
2008-05-29, 02:30 AM
"Word" is "drow" backwards. How can that not be offensive?

And yes, the halfling warlock/wizard guy on 51 must be Yugi trying to kill Seto's card.

Cubey
2008-05-29, 03:22 AM
My comments on the picture:

"Meh, that's offensive? Actually, it's pretty cool... the guy's armor I mean. Wait! Is that Regdar? What is he doing in 4th edition?"

Although I'm almost sure it isn't Regdar, because all signature characters are supposed to be new. Like Wash the Tiefling.

warmachine
2008-05-29, 04:05 AM
Someone's going to be shocked and offended by seeing someone dead? Who are the most innocent, target audience? Teenage children who want to play a game of high magic fantasy and killing imaginary beings in dangerous adventures. A picture of a dead person being tended to? Lame! There's not even anyone in the process of being stabbed. If someone can't handle that picture, they'd be looking at the cute board games, not roleplaying books.

bosssmiley
2008-05-29, 04:59 AM
Are you talking about this? http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/excerpt_4E_rituals1.jpg

Seems like a well-executed picture (no pun intended). The proportions and perspective are good, the colouring excellent. The silly Dutch tilt viewing angle is a little annoying though.

sonofzeal
2008-05-29, 08:08 AM
I'd say the picture is more shocking than offensive. A dead body at a funeral isn't a problem; a dead cartoon figure isn't a problem (most GTA games fall into this category); but a surprisingly realistic and gritty depiction of violent death where you're not expecting it is shocking in a way that neither of those are. And when people are shocked by things like this, they often react the same as they do to offensive content.

All in all, the picture looks designed for maximum impact. The blank eyes staring right at you, the hand reaching out as for help, the attention to detail in the blood... these all heighten the impact and turn it from yet another depiction of a dead body into something that I know my mother in particular would be bothered by, and would probably have resulted in the book being confiscated if I was still a young teen (yay for finishing university and achieving independance).

Cyr
2008-05-29, 08:30 AM
Is it wrong that the first thing I thought when I saw that picture was, "Why is his heart glowing?" and the second thing I thought was, "That female's armor is improperly designed, I had hoped in the next edition, but alas."

Sir_Elderberry
2008-05-29, 09:53 AM
Although I'm almost sure it isn't Regdar, because all signature characters are supposed to be new. Like Wash the Tiefling.

He's a leaf on the wind.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-29, 09:54 AM
He's a leaf on the wind.

Watch how he soars...

Sir_Elderberry
2008-05-29, 09:56 AM
Watch how he soars...

You know, now I'm going to feel sad every time I read the tiefling section.

EDIT: We're getting off topic. Disregard the firefly discussion, guys.

ImperiousLeader
2008-05-29, 10:01 AM
"Meh, that's offensive? Actually, it's pretty cool... the guy's armor I mean. Wait! Is that Regdar? What is he doing in 4th edition?"

Although I'm almost sure it isn't Regdar, because all signature characters are supposed to be new. Like Wash the Tiefling.

The Iconics weren't really carried over to 4e, but the ocassional iconic-esque character will pop up. I've seen a few characters that could be Liddas and one Mialee on page 256.

Jimp
2008-05-29, 11:04 AM
That's some awesome PHB art. There really aren't enough pictures of PCs getting defeated in sourcebooks :smallbiggrin:

FoE
2008-05-29, 11:11 AM
That's something Wizards of the Coast is definitely going to need to specify. Otherwise, I think that I'm going to houserule that whatever is raised has life returned to it ... and if all you did was grab your buddy's severed head or ear, that's all that's returning to life. For the three or four seconds before death occurs again.

@V: The ritual for Raise Dead says you just need "a part" of a body.

Sir_Elderberry
2008-05-29, 12:09 PM
That's something Wizards of the Coast is definitely going to need to specify. Otherwise, I think that I'm going to houserule that whatever is raised has life returned to it ... and if all you did was grab your buddy's severed head or ear, that's all that's returning to life. For the three or four seconds before death occurs again.


Eh? It's not like resurrection didn't work that way in 3.5 already.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-29, 12:35 PM
With regard to horrifying art, I've got to say that Jozan's replacement is pretty terrifying:

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/5164/picture13ds8.png

Edea
2008-05-29, 01:09 PM
Now that is just sinful. How could it possibly be acceptable to imply the gods are capable of creating a face which is that misshapen?

SamTheCleric
2008-05-29, 01:10 PM
Now that is just sinful. How could it possibly be acceptable to imply the gods are capable of creating a face which is that misshapen?

Owen Wilson

That's all I'm saying.

Edea
2008-05-29, 01:14 PM
I guess there's also Bryan Peppers.

FoE
2008-05-29, 01:25 PM
Quasimodo. 'Nuff said.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-29, 01:27 PM
Brian Peppers, Cleric of Pelor?



:smalleek:

Draz74
2008-05-29, 02:07 PM
Seriously, that picture wouldn't offend my grandmother. The Indiana Jones films are more graphically violent than that and they're rated PG.
Historical trivia: Raiders of the Lost Ark and Temple of Doom were only rated PG instead of PG-13 because PG-13 wasn't invented yet. Along with Gremlins, Temple of Doom was "the straw that broke the camel's back" for offended parents who wanted a harsher rating than PG to be available.

Ironically, Last Crusade picked up the PG-13 rating just because it was new, trendy, and because the Indy movies had a reputation by then, even though Last Crusade was slightly tamer than the previous two elements of the trilogy.


Seriously, Jax, what universe have you been inhabiting where this would be shocking? Utah?
Nah ... most people in Utah wouldn't find the picture offensive at all. At worst, they may just shrug and say, "Another example of why I don't like fantasy in general." (And they'd be referring to everything about the picture, not just the blood and gore.)

You could find exceptions, like my ex-girlfriend ... but I'm sure, if you look, you can find amazingly (overly?) innocent and sensitive women in any geographic region.

Edit: And if that last comment was sexist, sorry. I just honestly can't think of a male (over age 14) that would be offended by the picture. Or at least that would admit that they were offended by the picture.

nagora
2008-05-29, 02:47 PM
Edit: And if that last comment was sexist, sorry. I just honestly can't think of a male (over age 14) that would be offended by the picture. Or at least that would admit that they were offended by the picture.
I'm a male and I'm offended! The girl has too many clothes for a hot fantasy chick huh huh :smallbiggrin:

Actually, I'm in the sado camp that thought her attire was inappropriate for a combat situation. I mean, there's bare skin on show there! Do you want to be cut up?!

JaxGaret
2008-05-29, 03:56 PM
I'd say the picture is more shocking than offensive. A dead body at a funeral isn't a problem; a dead cartoon figure isn't a problem (most GTA games fall into this category); but a surprisingly realistic and gritty depiction of violent death where you're not expecting it is shocking in a way that neither of those are. And when people are shocked by things like this, they often react the same as they do to offensive content.a

All in all, the picture looks designed for maximum impact. The blank eyes staring right at you, the hand reaching out as for help, the attention to detail in the blood... these all heighten the impact and turn it from yet another depiction of a dead body into something that I know my mother in particular would be bothered by, and would probably have resulted in the book being confiscated if I was still a young teen (yay for finishing university nd achieving independance).

I couldn't have said it better myself. :smallsmile:


I'm in the sado camp that thought her attire was inappropriate for a combat situation. I mean, there's bare skin on show there! Do you want to be cut up?!

Maybe that is what she wants :smallwink:

AKA_Bait
2008-05-29, 03:58 PM
Maybe that is what she wants :smallwink:

She doesn't look particularly goth to me... also, you are a bad man.

Starbuck_II
2008-05-29, 04:18 PM
She doesn't look particularly goth to me... also, you are a bad man.

Bab as in not good or you know... you want to punish him :smallbiggrin:

AslanCross
2008-05-29, 04:39 PM
Just a thought----isn't that Regdar? D:

Anyway---he's being healed/rezzed anyway, so I don't really think it's such a problem. (Unless the Dragonborn dude is animating his corpse. D: )

But yeah, especially in America (even here, in the Philippines), we see much worse on TV.

UglyPanda
2008-05-29, 05:31 PM
As an American who is regularly on the internet and plays violent video games, I am desensitized enough that fake violence and death has no effect on me.

However, I am deeply affected by reports of real violence and death.

KIDS
2008-05-29, 06:18 PM
Aaaaagh, the realism/naturalism in that picture is burning my eyes! Aaaaaah!

p.s. nice one actually, though I can easily see massive whines over violent and devil-worshipping D&D players erupting the moment the book comes out.

Cubey
2008-05-29, 06:19 PM
Just a thought----isn't that Regdar? D:


I had the same thought several posts before. Apparently the conversion into 4th Ed didn't work so well for him...

"At-Will Exploits? What's thaaaargh! My heart!"

Zocelot
2008-05-29, 06:23 PM
Is it wrong that the first thing I thought when I saw that picture was, "Why is his heart glowing?" and the second thing I thought was, "That female's armor is improperly designed, I had hoped in the next edition, but alas."

I believe there is a rule in fantasy where the more skin a woman shows, the better protected she is.

My favorite is in video games, when a woman puts on full plate, it doesn't extend beyond the ribs.