Uncontacted Amazon Tribe Found

[Zakama]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24880941/?GT1=43001

Wow. Just wooooow. Imagine being those two guys with the bows. For them, there's really nothing different about that then say, aliens.

[ghost_warlock]

Yeah, sounds like the scandal here is that people aren't supposed to be messing with these folks. They haven't been contacted before because International Law protects them from having their culture destroyed by opportunistic a-hats like the people who took the picture(s).

Well, these poor people are already screwed, I guess. Time to send in McDonalds and the missionaries. Oh, and HIV. Can't forget the HIV.

[reorith]

was anyone else's first thought something involving the prime directive?

[Zakama]

was anyone else's first thought something involving the prime directive?

:smallsigh: Sadly, I can't say it was.

[Headless_Ninja]

Seriously, now I understand the Culture's 'Outside Context Problems'.

Arthur C. Clarke was right!

[bosssmiley]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24880941/?GT1=43001

Wow. Just wooooow. Imagine being those two guys with the bows. For them, there's really nothing different about that then say, aliens.

I *love* their reflexive reaction to busybody do-gooders: shoot arrows at them. These people are obviously part of an advanced, sophisticated culture and there is much we in the West can learn from them. :smallcool:

[ghost_warlock]

I *love* their reflexive reaction to busybody do-gooders: shoot arrows at them. These people are obviously part of an advanced, sophisticated culture and there is much we in the West can learn from them. :smallcool:

Well, to be fair, it doesn't sound like they actually did shoot arrows, just were ready to. The pictures were probably taken from a large, noisy helicopter - something totally outside their everyday perspective.

You have to remember that they're living in the jungle where big things tend to eat little things. They were probably, perhaps unconsciously, getting a good look at the concept of the food chain from the bottom up!

[Trog]

And apparently there are 100 uncontacted tribes existing in the world. Just bizzare to think that here I am typing on my computer in my climate-controlled building munching on my fast food lunch and there they are living like in the hunter gatherer days. I think the culture shock goes both ways. :smalleek:

Though the red body paint is pretty cool. Thumbs up on that. :smallbiggrin:

[North]

Yeah, sounds like the scandal here is that people aren't supposed to be messing with these folks. They haven't been contacted before because International Law protects them from having their culture destroyed by opportunistic a-hats like the people who took the picture(s).

Well, these poor people are already screwed, I guess. Time to send in McDonalds and the missionaries. Oh, and HIV. Can't forget the HIV.

Or you know good stuff like medicine, education, cookies.

[reorith]

Or you know good stuff like medicine, education, cookies.

these people have survived just fine without this crap. by what right should we violate their culture?

[Dallas-Dakota]

Or you know good stuff like medicine, education, cookies.
And the godly combination of cookies AND milk.

[Holy_Knight]

these people have survived just fine without this crap. by what right should we violate their culture?

While I can appreciate your concern, I think you're making unjustified assumptions here. To wit:

1. Given that they're hitherto unknown to us, how do we know that they've survived "just fine"? (More specifically, what does "just fine" mean, exactly?)

2. Why think that interaction with another people necessarily involves a violation of culture?

3. In general, we think of access to medicines and such, as North mentioned, to be a good thing. Yet, you seem to assume that providing that access to this tribe would be obviously wrong. Why?

I'm not necessarily advocating that people from cultures like our own should interact with tribes like this one, but neither do I think it's justified to assume unreflectively that we shouldn't.

[Don Julio Anejo]

these people have survived just fine without this crap. by what right should we violate their culture?
Maybe so they live to be older than 40 and have the opportunity to do something other than hunt and gather to survive if they wish to?

[Dave Rapp]

We're treating isolated people like this as if they're an endangered species. Um, why? They're humans exactly like us. The only difference is that they never had to compete with other humans, and so they never were forced to develop their technology to higher levels. Thus they're using bows and arrows while the rest of our species is using cell phones. The sad part of this isn't that we disturbed them, the sad part is that they exist at all. =\

[Mr. Moon]

Wow. I'm sorry, but this feels like the 18'th century. It feels, to me and my warped logic, that you guys are saying things along the lines of "Look! Uncouth barbarians! Obviously, they are lesser than us, for our technology is greater, we must help them!"

Personally, I think tribes like this should be preserved. I'm with Roerith here. This is their way of life. To take it away from them would be like... How can I explain this? It'd be like someone coming up to you, in your house, while you're playing your favourite game and saying, "Look, you're doing it wrong. This technology is old and obsolete. Let me show you how to do this properly." And then taking away all your favourite games and consoles and replacing them with spiffy new games you don't understand. Only on a larger scale.

[Collin152]

Wow. I'm sorry, but this feels like the 18'th century. It feels, to me and my warped logic, that you guys are saying things along the lines of "Look! Uncouth barbarians! Obviously, they are lesser than us, for our technology is greater, we must help them!"

Personally, I think tribes like this should be preserved. I'm with Roerith here. This is their way of life. To take it away from them would be like... How can I explain this? It'd be like someone coming up to you, in your house, while you're playing your favourite game and saying, "Look, you're doing it wrong. This technology is old and obsolete. Let me show you how to do this properly." And then taking away all your favourite games and consoles and replacing them with spiffy new games you don't understand. Only on a larger scale.

So why force them to do anything? Give them options.
Choice is the question here- what if they don't want their culture preserved? What if they'd rather live to see the age of 50? Here's an idea... let's ask them!

[Cobra_Ikari]

I don't think technology should be imposed on them, but neither do I think they should be treated as subhumans. In reality, were there a way to present them the option to assimilate to our current world and everything that comes with it or have all knowledge of such a world removed and exist in their current, untouched state, I'd think they should be given that.

[Sewer_Bandito]

What I find the most interesting is that, despite having no contact with outsiders, they have still invented the same method of hunting/weaponry that the rest of the world used at one point in time. I just think it's interesting that humans invent the same things as humans across the world.

[averagejoe]

these people have survived just fine without this crap. by what right should we violate their culture?

Well, I know that if there's some alien civilization out there studying earth, as far as I'm concerned they can violate away, if for no other reason than because I'm so damn curious about them. In my opinion, the best thing to do is neither total isolation nor "forcing our culture on them" (whatever that means.) It's my opinion that everyone deserves a choice. Putting myself in their place as best I can, that's what I would want. Who can imagine a greater adventure than seeing such wonders? I'd jump at the chance.

[Mc. Lovin']

Wow, they seem very stereotypical. Pretty amazing though

[Dave Rapp]

Wow. I'm sorry, but this feels like the 18'th century. It feels, to me and my warped logic, that you guys are saying things along the lines of "Look! Uncouth barbarians! Obviously, they are lesser than us, for our technology is greater, we must help them!"

What, you're saying they're not lesser than us? How does that work? The most important aspect of being human is the development of technology, which they have also done. But who's done more of it, us or them? Obviously us. We're as superior to them as we are to gorillas. :smallannoyed:

[llamamushroom]

Personally, I find it interesting that the site claims there to be more than 100 uncontacted tribes left. How do they know that?

And I disagree with Dave Rapp. I think that what makes human beings superior of inferior is how developed their system of ethics and morals are. Note that I am not talking religion - just how they see themselves in relation to other human beings.

In that way, I think that the Aborigines were more advanced than the British settlers, as the Brits not only saw women as incredibly inferior (Aborigines were quite equal, with hunting/gathering/making camp/cooking spread reasonably equally throughout the whole tribe), and 'barbarians' as animals to be assimilated or exterminated. In one case (I forget his name) a man honestly thought he wouldn't go to gaol for killing a family of Aborigines.

[purple gelatinous cube o' Doom]

FYI, the Brazilian government has actually known about this tribe for some time, but have only released pictures of them now.

[averagejoe]

What, you're saying they're not lesser than us? How does that work? The most important aspect of being human is the development of technology, which they have also done. But who's done more of it, us or them? Obviously us. We're as superior to them as we are to gorillas. :smallannoyed:

"More advanced" is probably a better term, in terms of technical correctness. Superior can mean many things. Moral systems aren't quite right either, llamamushroom. Really, "superior" isn't a very useful term when talking about culture.

[The Extinguisher]

Good. I say. Technology is one of the better things we have going for us. It's not fair to deny anyone access to it.

It's infact rather stupid to let them live like that, if you ask me. Willfully deny them the chance to grow as a society? Let them keep thier culture, we're not going to destroy that. This isn't the sixteen hundreds. We aren't going to kill and rape until they believe the same things we do.

[Don Julio Anejo]

The thing is, willfully withholding technology (as in medical care, education, quality of life) from them is also evil if you look at it from another perspective. Because we're keeping the status quo for OUR purpose, which is to keep people in the stone age still in the stone age (which basically makes them a museum exhibit, just on a larger scale). And we're not giving them a choice on it.

If we do give them a choice, then they will decide to either get into the 21st century, or they will choose to live as they did. Chances are the tribe will split in their decision, but it will be their decision.

On morality - from a psychology standpoint, our morals haven't changed very much in tens of thousands of years. Bad things like slavery come and go. They're still here in fact, just better hidden. There's other stuff that's probably too political for these boards. But the bottom line is that we still steal stuff, kill other people, cheat, lie, etcetera. We just go about it in different ways. The only thing that has progressed is technology, which prevents us from doing some crimes (either because there's no need for them or because it's easy to get caught) and opens the ground for others (identity theft/credit card fraud anyone?).

PS: to whomever said they were using the same technology as everyone else - that's because things like spears, bows and straw shacks have been around for hundreds of thousands of years, way before people even came to the Americas.

[The Extinguisher]

I think he was commenting on the idea that tribes so seperated can come up with similar ideas. But that's just how the human mind words. We think alike.

[DraPrime]

I think he was commenting on the idea that tribes so seperated can come up with similar ideas. But that's just how the human mind words. We think alike.

Or these things were invented at some point in the past and spread, eventually reaching these people before they were isolated.

[Parvum]

Why does it seem that this 'Survival Limited' group wants to keep these uncontacted tribes in the dark? Denying them access to the technological, physiological, and sociological advances made in recent and less recent years simply seems horribly inhumane. What has our existence served if we cannot share the discoveries we have made with those elsewhere? The only possible rationale I can think of is that, if contacted, certain governments might be deemed responsible for the tribes and be forced to spend money on them until their life expectancy and perhaps other quality of life factors are at a closer level to our own.

[Jayngfet]

If it were up to me I'd let them pick a guy, give him a round the world tour, introduce him to the internet, tell him about the rest of the world, send him home to tell everyone else what he saw, and let them decide what to do for themselves instead of treating them like a natural history museum exhibit or a bunch of monkeys.

[Dave Rapp]

If it were up to me I'd let them pick a guy, give him a round the world tour, introduce him to the internet, tell him about the rest of the world, send him home to tell everyone else what he saw, and let them decide what to do for themselves instead of treating them like a natural history museum exhibit or a bunch of monkeys.

Let's say a group of liens come to earth, and just land in the middle of Washington DC. They're about five thousand years more advanced than us and obviously speak their own language, so we can't understand them or any of the things they do. Because of this, we don't know what they're here to do or what they want. Because of difference in culture, a gesture of peace to them may be a gesture of war to us, or vice-versa. They want to take us on a tour of the galaxy, teach us their amazing technology, bring us up to date with the rest of the universe so that we, as a culture, can become more advanced. But we don't know that because we're so different that we can't communicate.

Riddle me this. How would our little society react?

[Cobra_Ikari]

Ah. Question, since I didn't see anyone else mention this before...

...how to we communicate with them? Do we know what language they speak?

[Collin152]

Let's say a group of liens come to earth, and just land in the middle of Washington DC. They're about five thousand years more advanced than us and obviously speak their own language, so we can't understand them or any of the things they do. Because of this, we don't know what they're here to do or what they want. Because of difference in culture, a gesture of peace to them may be a gesture of war to us, or vice-versa. They want to take us on a tour of the galaxy, teach us their amazing technology, bring us up to date with the rest of the universe so that we, as a culture, can become more advanced. But we don't know that because we're so different that we can't communicate.

Riddle me this. How would our little society react?

We'd try and establish a common language.
We're rational lke that.

[The Extinguisher]

Hmm, I though you were going to go with an abduction analgoy.

Eh. I agree. We'd find a common language. It's worked before.

[FlyMolo]

Riddle me this. How would our little society react?
We'd invade them, duh. :smallfrown:

Alright everyone, listen carefully: Morally Ambiguous.

Do we want to give them stuff like sofas and medicine so they don't die for humanitarian reasons? But if we do, their culture is destroyed. Boom. Gone. Just another face on those "for just pennies a day" commercials. So: Intervene and corrupt the pristine? or Deny them the cure to their diseases, so they stay noble and unchanged? Are we being selfish because we like the idea of someone uncorrupted by the modern world?

If aliens had the cure to AIDS, you would want it, even if it destroyed our culture. No more hamburger joints, but no AIDS. No more elegance and beauty in suffering, but no disease. No more unique and bizarre mating rituals(What is this 'making out' of which you speak? How do you manufacture "out"?), but no STDs and no world hunger.

Sign me up for the cultureless utopia, I'm afraid.

[Jayngfet]

We'd invade them, duh. :smallfrown:

Alright everyone, listen carefully: Morally Ambiguous.

Do we want to give them stuff like sofas and medicine so they don't die for humanitarian reasons? But if we do, their culture is destroyed. Boom. Gone. Just another face on those "for just pennies a day" commercials. So: Intervene and corrupt the pristine? or Deny them the cure to their diseases, so they stay noble and unchanged? Are we being selfish because we like the idea of someone uncorrupted by the modern world?

If aliens had the cure to AIDS, you would want it, even if it destroyed our culture. No more hamburger joints, but no AIDS. No more elegance and beauty in suffering, but no disease. No more unique and bizarre mating rituals(What is this 'making out' of which you speak? How do you manufacture "out"?), but no STDs and no world hunger.

Sign me up for the cultureless utopia, I'm afraid.

Who said culture less, we may loose Harold and Kumar, hell, we could even loose comic books(the rest of the world wouldn't take kindly to evil space people), but odds are we'd replace it with something better, who wouldn't trade a flu shot and Uwe Boll for a cancer cure and a documentary on life, the universe, and everything.

[North]

these people have survived just fine without this crap. by what right should we violate their culture?

And the rest of the world was allright without cell phones. Then they came along and proliferated all over the world. By what right should people have said "No sorry, no technology here. Build it yourself, no cheating! By the by you didnt invent the pacemaker so were going to have to repo those all too."


Wow. I'm sorry, but this feels like the 18'th century. It feels, to me and my warped logic, that you guys are saying things along the lines of "Look! Uncouth barbarians! Obviously, they are lesser than us, for our technology is greater, we must help them!"

Personally, I think tribes like this should be preserved. I'm with Roerith here. This is their way of life. To take it away from them would be like... How can I explain this? It'd be like someone coming up to you, in your house, while you're playing your favourite game and saying, "Look, you're doing it wrong. This technology is old and obsolete. Let me show you how to do this properly." And then taking away all your favourite games and consoles and replacing them with spiffy new games you don't understand. Only on a larger scale.


Umm if they were to give me new awesome video games Id be hell yes. Telepathic dodgeball sounds great. Learning and evolving into something more advanced is just peachy with me.

If I met someone from somewhere else and they told me they had a cure for aids and cancer but didnt want to give it to us because of cultural contamination I would punch them right in the mouth.

[North]

We'd invade them, duh. :smallfrown:

Alright everyone, listen carefully: Morally Ambiguous.

Do we want to give them stuff like sofas and medicine so they don't die for humanitarian reasons? But if we do, their culture is destroyed. Boom. Gone. Just another face on those "for just pennies a day" commercials. So: Intervene and corrupt the pristine? or Deny them the cure to their diseases, so they stay noble and unchanged? Are we being selfish because we like the idea of someone uncorrupted by the modern world?

If aliens had the cure to AIDS, you would want it, even if it destroyed our culture. No more hamburger joints, but no AIDS. No more elegance and beauty in suffering, but no disease. No more unique and bizarre mating rituals(What is this 'making out' of which you speak? How do you manufacture "out"?), but no STDs and no world hunger.

Sign me up for the cultureless utopia, I'm afraid.

I see absolutely no elegance in any suffering.

And who says you have to lose culture just because of improvements in technology?:smallconfused:

[FlyMolo]

I should have put that elegance bit in quotes, neh?

And nobody plays ye olde rugby anymore. With two villages as teams, about as close to warfare as you can get? Yeah. That kind. So that's gone. Insurance killed it.

I would trade Uwe Boll for just about anything, including a dust bunny.

I would miss making out if they abolished that, though. :smallfrown:

I totally agree with your mouth punching comment, though. +1. Aim for any hole. It might not be a mouth, but respiratory pores are squishy too.

[Collin152]

II would miss making out if they abolished that, though. :smallfrown:


As long as it is followed, it is not deceased.

I'd help you keep it alive.
Take from that what you will.

[FlyMolo]

As long as it is followed, it is not deceased.

I'd help you keep it alive.
Take from that what you will.
Alright, I've got a wingman! :smallbiggrin:

Let's hit the post-first-contact bars.

[Collin152]

Alright, I've got a wingman! :smallbiggrin:

Let's hit the post-first-contact bars.

*Shifty eyes*
Yes. A wingman. That's exactly it.

Bars? Nah, don't drink, they don't want me there.

[FlyMolo]

*Shifty eyes*
Yes. A wingman. That's exactly it.

Bars? Nah, don't drink, they don't want me there.
No loss then, we'll slink in, steal all the wimmins, and slink out again. They'll be angry either way, and this way we get all the wimmins. :smallbiggrin: Then they get to drown their sorrows.

[Collin152]

No loss then, we'll slink in, steal all the wimmins, and slink out again. They'll be angry either way, and this way we get all the wimmins. :smallbiggrin: Then they get to drown their sorrows.

Okay, so we steal the woo-mans.
What am I supposed to do then?

[FlyMolo]

Okay, so we steal the woo-mans.
What am I supposed to do then?
You help me steal the woomans. After that it's up to you.

We've completely hijacked this thread, have we not?

[Collin152]

You help me steal the woomans. After that it's up to you.

We've completely hijacked this thread, have we not?

Yes.

Fine, we steal the Amazonian, uncultured Wu-mens.

And then I'll steal you.

[NikkTheTrick]

I *love* their reflexive reaction to busybody do-gooders: shoot arrows at them. These people are obviously part of an advanced, sophisticated culture and there is much we in the West can learn from them. :smallcool:
Here is an example for you: an alien craft made of some werid organic goo comes into our atmosphere shooting laser beams all over the place. Would you not even think about opening fire on it?

Strong and big birds can injure people. The bigger the bird is, the scarier it is. Now, they saw a HUGE metal bird which is very noisy and looks agressive coming at them. Bird the size of a helicopter would easily be able to kill and eat a human. Self-defense is a very reasonable reaction to that. How would they get any idea that there are fellow humans in that "bird"? In nature, you don't often see humans living inside birds...

[ghost_warlock]

The thing everyone seems to be forgetting is that , other than perhaps a few anthropoligists, nobody actually treats these tribal people like, well, people!

There is no great benefactor organization that goes around giving people like this medicine and textbooks, there are only countless opportunistic companies willing to sell these people out for whatever resource they could get out of them. In this case, likely land that will be turned into slash-and-burn agricultural space.

And what will become of these people? The same thing that happens to everyone in our society who doesn't have money or, if they have money, has no idea what it means or how to use it. They will be routinely exploited while their culture is 'assimiliated' (i.e., destroyed) by the oh-so-much 'better' people who brought you McDonalds, oil spills, and thousands of years of petty squabbling over everything from who gets some stuff we dug up to how to interpret a few lines of text in a book.

Meanwhile, these people will be exposed to viruses and bacteria, which we're all immune to, but to which they have no resistance. So bring in the cavalry, Mr. Medicine to save the day. Except that Mr. Medicine, once again, does not work for free. These people will not get much in the way of handouts and it's unrealistic to assume that Big Daddy Western Culture is going to save them.

There are thousands of people dying of starvation all over the world, in "civilized" countries and cities. We can't even get our own **** right, what makes you think we're going to do right for these people to whom we are not related, have no national ties to, and are already looking down on for being primitive.

The thing is, the beautiful model of the technology and long-lives we could bring these people is in no way the model of what actually occurs when these tribes are contacted. We stop by, say hi, grab what we can of their land and then bugger off to wherever we're from while 'progress' turns their forest into a slash-and-burn agriculture project.. Then the missionaries come in and end up fighting over which group has the right to try and convert these obviously backward pagans. Since they have no representatives in government their rights will be repeatedly ignored since no one is going to lobby on their behalf.

Well, pretty much no one. There are a few anthropologists who'll write some angry things in journals or maybe newspapers or magazines, but since there really isn't any political power in anthropology, it'll only raise a few eyebrows and then be forgotten.

Sure, we could bring these people some great things. But we simply won't. They'll be exploited and forgotten like virtually every other tribe in the Amazon that's been discovered, destroyed, and all-but forgotten.

Uncontacted peoples (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncontacted_peoples)
Indigenous peoples in Brazil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples_in_Brazil#The_natives_after_the _European_colonization)

[Solo]

Wow. I'm sorry, but this feels like the 18'th century. It feels, to me and my warped logic, that you guys are saying things along the lines of "Look! Uncouth barbarians! Obviously, they are lesser than us, for our technology is greater, we must help them!"


Hell no.

Let their women die in childbirth, their elders suffer the pains of old age, and their children catch easily treatable diseases and end up with crippling debilitations.



There is no great benefactor organization that goes around giving people like this medicine and textbooks, there are only countless opportunistic companies willing to sell these people out for whatever resource they could get out of them. In this case, likely land that will be turned into slash-and-burn agricultural space.
My mistake, I must have not gotten the memo that we're actually a world run by cynical and greedy Shadowrun-esque companies who will viciously destroy their culture and exploit their land.

Just like what happened to the Amish.



There are thousands of people dying of starvation all over the world, in "civilized" countries and cities. We can't even get our own **** right, what makes you think we're going to do right for these people to whom we are not related, have no national ties to, and are already looking down on for being primitive.
Edited. Not sure how I can best point out to you why this position is incorrect. Maybe will try again later.

[Collin152]

There is no great benefactor organization that goes around giving people like this medicine and textbooks, there are only countless opportunistic companies willing to sell these people out for whatever resource they could get out of them.

I know of two such organizations.
One of them is the catholic church.

Are you going to bash them now?

The other one is also a church, but it gets less props.

[Solo]

The other one is also a church, but it gets less props.
Scientology?

[FlyMolo]

Post removed by popular demand.

Replaced with quirky commentary on the word "taro".

Lol, taro is a silly word, it makes little sense.

[Collin152]

Scientology?

Do they? Not who I was talking about.
I meant they get less props with me.

[Zakama]

Guys, don't get my thread locked. Keep it civil.

[Solo]

A man called Jingo called, he wanted to talk about copyright.

Did you manage to cast Detect Sarcasm?



People are stupid. This is a fact. They don't think so much as make stuff up as they go along, at best.

The problem I have with this view is that the speaker never includes himself, despite usually being a typical example of the human race.

Call the masses anything you want, but you'd better be sure you're far, far above them if you do, otherwise you come off poorly.

[ghost_warlock]

My mistake, I must have not gotten the memo that we're actually a world run by cynical and greedy Shadowrun-esque companies who will viciously destroy their culture and exploit their land.

Just like what happened to the Amish.

Exactly. If you can't get it right the first time, don't even try. I am positively ashamed that America gave so much aid to the victims of the recent Chinese earthquake; with so many homeless people in America, you'd think the resources could have been better spent!

The Amish happen to be one special case in a long history of destroying indigenous people. Not that the Amish were in any way indigenous. They were also white, located in the continental U.S., and chose to seperate themselves. You can't possibly think that these Amazonians have anywhere near the same scenario.

The simple fact is that virtually every one of these tribes, in the Amazon and surrounding area, in the last 100-or-so years, were more-or-less wiped out and their culture destroyed when they were contacted. The fact is, we've had numerous tries to 'get it right' and we've botched it nearly every time. And who are the ones to suffer the consequences, not us but the people we're trying to 'save.'

Yes, we certainly can help these people. We'll help them by exposing them to new diseases, taking away their land, forcing our religion on them, eliminate their culture and language and forcing them to learn ours.

In any case, this argument is absurd, unless anyone in this community is planning on heading down there.

[Solo]

Yes, we certainly can help these people. We'll help them by exposing them to new diseases, taking away their land, forcing our religion on them, eliminate their culture and language and forcing them to learn ours.


Goodness, was that the plan? I must have not gotten the memo. I had no idea Pizarro's agenda was still on the table.

[FlyMolo]

Did you manage to cast Detect Sarcasm?

The problem I have with this view is that the speaker never includes himself, despite usually being a typical example of the human race.

Call the masses anything you want, but you'd better be sure you're far, far above them if you do, otherwise you come off poorly.

I was just commenting. I completely agree with you. Although you can actually make a case that Chinese people are no more valuable than American homeless, and that helping people by geographical proximity makes at least as much sense as anything else. There is a case for efficiency per man-hour donated, though.

And I am stupid, and I definitely make everything up as I go along.

Otherwise what would be the point?

We/I are/am off on a tangent.

[Solo]

And I am stupid, and I definitely make everything up as I go along.

Otherwise what would be the point?

We/I are/am off on a tangent.

But by your own admission, have you not GIANT FROG?

[FlyMolo]

Yes, we certainly can help these people. We'll help them by exposing them to new diseases, taking away their land, forcing our religion on them, eliminate their culture and language and forcing them to learn ours.


Diseases, accidentally. Taking away their land, selling it(or tours on it) to fund a healthcare initiative. Taking away their religion, missionaries proselytizing and converting( they're trying to help). And as for the last, if the shopkeepers speak english, you'll be damn sure the shoppers will too. Eventually.

Edit: At Solo: Quite.

[Solo]

Yes, we certainly can help these people. We'll help them by exposing them to new diseases, taking away their land, forcing our religion on them, eliminate their culture and language and forcing them to learn ours.

1. We also have vaccines/medicine for the new diseases, and for the ones they already suffer, most likely.
2. Land can be protected in various ways.
3. We do not actively force people to convert to Christianity anymore.
4. Introducing new culture does not necessarily lead to the elimination of the previous one.

[Jayngfet]

The Amish happen to be one special case in a long history of destroying indigenous people. Not that the Amish were in any way indigenous. They were also white, located in the continental U.S., and chose to seperate themselves. You can't possibly think that these Amazonians have anywhere near the same scenario.

So a group located in one of the areas famed for the culture you seem to hate count's less than a group in a different hemisphere altogether?



The simple fact is that virtually every one of these tribes, in the Amazon and surrounding area, in the last 100-or-so years, were more-or-less wiped out and their culture destroyed when they were contacted. The fact is, we've had numerous tries to 'get it right' and we've botched it nearly every time. And who are the ones to suffer the consequences, not us but the people we're trying to 'save.'


Define culture destroyed, one could say English culture is destroyed because there is no feudalism, the beliefs and systems of the world change, deal with it or give up you're computer and farm for the rest of your life, or maybe you'd be a decent courier du bois? People change cultures all the time, in the "last 100-or-so years" we've had two world wars, several dictators have fallen and risen, we invented indoor plumbing, you act like this tribe's been unchanged for a billion years, lord forbid they upgraded from flinging a spear to arrows, or perhaps tie bowstrings more efficently.



Yes, we certainly can help these people. We'll help them by exposing them to new diseases, taking away their land, forcing our religion on them, eliminate their culture and language and forcing them to learn ours.


So the world is a place that seeks to rob a small patch of land in a large forrest the second they find out somebody lives there? Think about it, we have a god knows how many other spots in that one forrest to use, a series of vaccines for such an occasion, and a wide range of cultures. The U.S.A. and england may be western countries that speak the same language, have an intertwined history, and communicate several times daily, and yet they differ greatly in many cultural and political issues. Before we eliminate their culture, we have to figure out who's doing the eliminating.



In any case, this argument is absurd, unless anyone in this community is planning on heading down there.

So no one's allowed to discuss an election in another country, no one can talk about a tragedy unless they go down there and help victims themselves, who can do what anyway. This is news, people discuss news, always have, always will.

[ghost_warlock]

So no one's allowed to discuss an election in another country, no one can talk about a tragedy unless they go down there and help victims themselves, who can do what anyway. This is news, people discuss news, always have, always will.

Allowed? :smallconfused: Obviously, people can and still are (until the thread gets locked).

But this has turned from a discussion about the news into an argument about whether it's right to contact previously uncontacted cultures. This is absurd because, likely, none of the people involved have any say in the International Policy regarding this issue. Maybe we should get the opinion of someone who actually comes from one of these tribes which was contacted in the past and see what he/she'd have to say about the issue.

[skywalker]

Hi, I'm late to the party but I'll throw in my two cents.

First off, no, they may not live past 40, yes, their women may die in childbirth, and yes, they probably live less "enjoyable" lives than ours. But they have no idea. To them, this is exactly how one is supposed to live. We're only improving their lives from our perspective.

I think the reason we let the Amish stay the way they are is because they subscribe to our concept of ourselves(human beings) as knowing good and evil. The Amazon tribe probably does not, and I am 99% certain they will not be allowed to remain that way. Furthermore, the Amish are agricultural, and therefore have in common with us our most basic trait. In that sense, they are fundamentally the same as us.

[Jayngfet]

AMaybe we should get the opinion of someone who actually comes from one of these tribes which was contacted in the past and see what he/she'd have to say about the issue.

...Wasn't that what I suggested in the first place?

[Solo]

To them, this is exactly how one is supposed to live. We're only improving their lives from our perspective.

And is our perspective right or wrong?

[Jayngfet]

And is our perspective right or wrong?

Depends on who you ask, if there was a definite "right" and a definite "wrong" ninety nine percent of the worlds problems could be solved with ease.

[skywalker]

And is our perspective right or wrong?Who're we to decide? But there is some empirical evidence to suggest(IMO) that right now we're doing something wrong, or at least aren't getting it all right.

[Naleh]

If we contact these people, we will give them (potentially fatal) diseases to which they are not immune.

We don't have vaccines for everything.

That is all.

[Jayngfet]

If we contact these people, we will give them (potentially fatal) diseases to which they are not immune.

We don't have vaccines for everything.

That is all.

Which we're aware of, and we do have vaccines for anything we've had long enough to resist it. We're not going to barge in like idiots, we have brains for a reason.

[Solo]

Who're we to decide? But there is some empirical evidence to suggest(IMO) that right now we're doing something wrong, or at least aren't getting it all right.

And are they getting it more right than we?

[reorith]

Which we're aware of, and we do have vaccines for anything we've had long enough to resist it. We're not going to barge in like idiots, we have brains for a reason.

idk, i might. barging in like an idiot seems like a great idea. i'd stroll on in and offer them the high fat high sodium crud that i eat as an american and then introduce them to the magic of miller genuine draft. unfortunately, i'll have blown most of my budget on machetes and guides and mosquito netting, so everyone will have to drink from the same keg and i only own one tap so it looks like i'd collapse an entire society with kegstands and hope that they never find out what a waste of time and space the rest of the world is.

[skywalker]

And are they getting it more right than we?

They're living more in harmony with their world. They may die at 40, but they're not even close to overpopulating their little stretch of jungle. The average member of their tribe is probably also much happier than the average member of our civilization. I'm speculating, but I'll bet there's no rat race in their tribe, no reason to work hard or hoard things.

They're certainly not contributing to global warming, if you believe in that sort of thing. They're not hunting species to extinction, and they're not creating millions of children and then straining like crazy to keep them alive.

I'm not saying I could live that way but sometimes it does seem better.

[Solo]

They're living more in harmony with their world. They may die at 40, but they're not even close to overpopulating their little stretch of jungle. The average member of their tribe is probably also much happier than the average member of our civilization. I'm speculating, but I'll bet there's no rat race in their tribe, no reason to work hard or hoard things.

They're certainly not contributing to global warming, if you believe in that sort of thing. They're not hunting species to extinction, and they're not creating millions of children and then straining like crazy to keep them alive.

I'm not saying I could live that way but sometimes it does seem better.

You are romanticizing.

The past wasn't nice and harmonious, with Pocahontas and all her little woodland friends. It was a harsh and unforgiving. Women had no rights, lives were short, nasty and brutish, might made right, and everyone was filthy. (How can you tell he's a king? Cause he doesn't have sh*t all over him.)

This never seems to factor in to modern people's discussions about how their distant ancestors lived.

Instead, we get a rosy vision of the past with primitive man living in harmony with nature, instead of being hunted by wolf packs, risking starvation every winter, and hunting woolly mammoths to extinction.

As you romanticize the past, so do you romanticize the Amazonian tribes.

Dismissed.

[Jayngfet]

They're living more in harmony with their world. They may die at 40, but they're not even close to overpopulating their little stretch of jungle. The average member of their tribe is probably also much happier than the average member of our civilization. I'm speculating, but I'll bet there's no rat race in their tribe, no reason to work hard or hoard things.

They're certainly not contributing to global warming, if you believe in that sort of thing. They're not hunting species to extinction, and they're not creating millions of children and then straining like crazy to keep them alive.

I'm not saying I could live that way but sometimes it does seem better.

Oh don't feed us that, living in harmony with the world probably doesn't include ripping bits of it of, twisting it, and using it to kill things, otherwise we'd all be taking druid levels. How do you know anything about population or happiness, we just met them and have the whole of one picture with three of them, same for happiness, only one image, two thirds of subjects armed and ready to fire at a moments notice. No reason to work hard or hoard things? THEY LIVE IN A JUNGLE FILLED WITH THINGS THAT CAN KILL THEM, you have to work hard to survive, you hoard things because going out too often can make you somethings next meal.

[Naleh]

Which we're aware of, and we do have vaccines for anything we've had long enough to resist it. We're not going to barge in like idiots, we have brains for a reason.

I will reiterate: we don't have vaccines for everything.

Even if we do have vaccines for all the diseases we give them, so what? We have a vaccine for Yellow Fever, but it still causes 30,000 deaths a year.

[Solo]

I will reiterate: we don't have vaccines for everything.

Even if we do have vaccines for all the diseases we give them, so what? We have a vaccine for Yellow Fever, but it still causes 30,000 deaths a year.

And did those 30,000 people who die get the vaccine, or were they vaccinated?

[ghost_warlock]

Same people, different article. (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iRk0QGW-Tz0q6PP7y36N3CwOgH_wD9105MUG0)


"It's a choice they made to remain isolated or maintain only occasional contacts, but these tribes usually obtain some modern goods through trading with other Indians," said Bernardo Beronde, an anthropologist who works in the region.

[Solo]

Same people, different article. (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iRk0QGW-Tz0q6PP7y36N3CwOgH_wD9105MUG0)

"It's a choice they made to remain isolated or maintain only occasional contacts, but these tribes usually obtain some modern goods through trading with other Indians," said Bernardo Beronde, an anthropologist who works in the region.

Eek! Contamination!

[Naleh]

And did those 30,000 people who die get the vaccine, or were they vaccinated?

They weren't vaccinated. That's the point. We have the vaccine, but we don't provide it. Whether that's because of inherent human selfishness or merely that it's impractical, I don't know.

However, if this second article is accurate, I think all our points are moot.

[Jayngfet]

Which does remind me of something I read last year, in north america, a good deal of indigenous people never met europeans(russians either) for my mirror knows how long, and yet through trade with other tribes goods reached across continents, within a generation spear and bow was replaced with rifle, and the guys who traded it had no idea.

It doesn't matter if we leave them alone, eventually some other tribe want's to trade his gun for some nick-knack, they already know about us and our culture anyway, who's to say someone didn't already trade his bow for a bullet?

[skywalker]

You are romanticizing.

The past wasn't nice and harmonious, with Pocahontas and all her little woodland friends. It was a harsh and unforgiving. Women had no rights, lives were short, nasty and brutish, might made right, and everyone was filthy. (How can you tell he's a king? Cause he doesn't have sh*t all over him.)Ahem. Your last quote there refers to a society that was already agrarian. Most of what you're referring to is agrarian societies. I'm not romanticizing. I never said it was nice from our perspective, but harmonious doesn't always mean nice, and I didn't mean to imply that it did.

This never seems to factor in to modern people's discussions about how their distant ancestors lived.

Instead, we get a rosy vision of the past with primitive man living in harmony with nature, instead of being hunted by wolf packs, risking starvation every winter, and hunting woolly mammoths to extinction.

As you romanticize the past, so do you romanticize the Amazonian tribes.

Dismissed. There is no winter in the Amazon. I suppose I can't judge their happiness, but other tribes have been discovered to be quite happy living the way they do. I know we're in an argument here, but stop and think. Do you really think the average American worker is happier than one of these guys? The average worker period? Do you think that the people starving in camps in Africa are happier than these guys? They're certainly not as well fed...

Jayngfet, there's a difference between defending yourself when attacked, and working your butt off so some other guy will hand you food. Or some bits of paper you can use to "purchase" food. I'm also fairly certain they don't hoard things. But I could be wrong.

Anybody got any theories why they choose to go back to the way they live?

EDIT: 500 people roaming over 1.5 million acres. That's a lot of space per person.

[Jayngfet]

Ahem. Your last quote there refers to a society that was already agrarian. Most of what you're referring to is agrarian societies. I'm not romanticizing. I never said it was nice from our perspective, but harmonious doesn't always mean nice, and I didn't mean to imply that it did.
There is no winter in the Amazon. I suppose I can't judge their happiness, but other tribes have been discovered to be quite happy living the way they do. I know we're in an argument here, but stop and think. Do you really think the average American worker is happier than one of these guys? The average worker period? Do you think that the people starving in camps in Africa are happier than these guys? They're certainly not as well fed...

Jayngfet, there's a difference between defending yourself when attacked, and working your butt off so some other guy will hand you food. Or some bits of paper you can use to "purchase" food. I'm also fairly certain they don't hoard things. But I could be wrong.

Anybody got any theories why they choose to go back to the way they live?

EDIT: 500 people roaming over 1.5 million acres. That's a lot of space per person.

There is a winter in the amazon, it just has rain instead of snow.

The average american worker doesn't have to worry about where his dinner is coming from, or if it'll try to eat him, working to get food that's been pre killed, cut into individual sections, washed to avoid disease and contamination and package to prevent any other contamination: Instead of getting up at 4am, trekking through a thick jungle naked to attempt to bring down an animal large enough to feed you're family with low quality bow before it does the same with it's claws, finding plants that don't poison you and are edible, carrying it back home, cook it over an open flame while avoiding burning yourself, divide it up so that at least some of you're family gets to eat, lookout for other dangerous things invading you're home, and while you're at it, contribute to a group so it makes sense to be there.

[Solo]

Ahem. Your last quote there refers to a society that was already agrarian. Most of what you're referring to is agrarian societies.

It was intended to be an example of how people romanticize the past and do not remember the bad parts.

If I had the time, I could make a better example, but I'm not going to. The point has been made.

[Turnips]

Instead of trying to "help" these people who appear to be getting along pretty well on their own, how about we help people who really need the benefits of western civilization, like the millions of people starving and dying from preventable diseases in the third world?

[Solo]

Instead of trying to "help" these people who appear to be getting along pretty well on their own, how about we help people who really need the benefits of western civilization, like the millions of people starving and dying from preventable diseases in the third world?

The point of this discussion is whether or not contacting the tribe would cause them great harm. I am arguing against the knee-jerk reaction that it will cause the downfall of their society.

Aid to third world countries is beside the point.

[Turnips]

And have we said anything about not helping them as well?

No.

Can you provide an example of a culturally advanced society coming into contact with a culturally primitive one, and them ending up better off because of it?

[Solo]

No.

Can you provide an example of a culturally advanced society coming into contact with a culturally primitive one, and them ending up better off because of it?

日本。


Instead of trying to "help" these people who appear to be getting along pretty well on their own, how about we help people who really need the benefits of western civilization, like the millions of people starving and dying from preventable diseases in the third world?
We'd only be improving their lives from our perspective.

[Turnips]

日本。

Can you be more specific?

[Jayngfet]

Can you be more specific?

Feudal system for my well polished mirror knows how long, complete with knights still using swords and common people can be executed for no reason, now they're fameous for technology and there's some social movenent.

Remember, assimilation can help us as well as them.

[Don Julio Anejo]

No.

Can you provide an example of a culturally advanced society coming into contact with a culturally primitive one, and them ending up better off because of it?
First of all, please give operational definitions for a culturally advanced and a culturally primitive society. I.e. what exactly makes them advanced or primitive? About the only thing I can see is complexity - more advanced cultures would have more complex laws, more complex rituals, more traditions, etc. But that's also because advanced cultures would have exponentially larger numbers of people (e.g. 1+ billion in the western world and 1000 in an Amazonian tribe).

Also, make sure you distinguish whether a society is technologically or culturally more advanced since better weapons and indoor plumbing doesn't necessarily mean more advanced culture.

[SDF]

The diseases argument is silly. Coming into contact with a westerner is not going to give you a potentially fatal disease you've never come across. Unless you get the genius idea to do humanitarian work while suffering from influenza, and then violate all health procedures. AIDS is virtually a non-issue unless you start interbreeding with the culture. New disease only becomes an issue if you remove them from their environment. A world tour might not be a bright idea, but interaction with them isn't going to hurt them.

There are many African tribes that decide to have limited contact with western culture but still benefit from it. There are tribes that run and hunt down animals, but instead of running barefoot across the Sahara they wear Nikes allowing them to hunt better. They still use spears, but are better able to hunt their prey.

Preserving them would be an interesting anthropological study, but I can't see much use for it beyond that. Wasting resources assimilating them doesn't make much sense unless there is a nearby community that can help support them until they completely become part of modern civilization. So I don't see any point in shielding them from our culture, but I don't see any reason to go in and do anything about them right now.

[Turnips]

Feudal system for my well polished mirror knows how long, complete with knights still using swords and common people can be executed for no reason, now they're fameous for technology and there's some social movenent.

Remember, assimilation can help us as well as them.

Good point, I suppose we won't screw things up too much if we're careful.

The history of European colonization just doesn't fill me with confidence, that's all.

[Solo]

Good point, I suppose we won't screw things up too much if we're careful.

The history of European colonization just doesn't fill me with confidence, that's all.

I think we're a bit past that part of history.

[ghost_warlock]

The diseases argument is silly. Coming into contact with a westerner is not going to give you a potentially fatal disease you've never come across. Unless you get the genius idea to do humanitarian work while suffering from influenza, and then violate all health procedures. AIDS is virtually a non-issue unless you start interbreeding with the culture. New disease only becomes an issue if you remove them from their environment. A world tour might not be a bright idea, but interaction with them isn't going to hurt them.

Um, no this argument is not silly and yes disease is one of the principle reasons why contact has not been made in the past. Beyond exotic stuff, each of us carries around a plethora of bacterial colonies that varies somewhat from person to person and sometimes drastically between isolated geographical locations. There's a good chance that you wouldn't even know you're carrying a bacteria that could be harmful or fatal to others. Case in point, read about C-diff (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-diff).


Disease is also a risk, as members of tribal groups that have been contacted in the past have died of illnesses that they have no defence against, ranging from chicken pox to the common cold.
Quote source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7426794.stm)


Wasting resources assimilating them doesn't make much sense unless there is a nearby community that can help support them until they completely become part of modern civilization.

There isn't any reason to go and disrupt their way of life to inflate our egos about how much help we are to them. If people really want to help others, donate some time and energy to Habitat for Humanity (http://www.habitat.org/) or volunteer for a local soup kitchen. Stop armchair philosophizing about how great Western culture would be for these poor savages and rectify your guilty conscience by actually getting up and helping someone.


So I don't see any point in shielding them from our culture, but I don't see any reason to go in and do anything about them right now.

Because loggers are tearing down the forest to make room for agricultural development and this will inevitably put these people out of a home and bring them into conflict with our culture. I posted a link to an article about it a page or two ago.

Edit: Here's another article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7395781.stm). (Not the same people, but geographically close and with a similar issue.)

On indigenous land in the nearby rainforest there are also signs of illegal logging, which local people say the authorities have allowed to happen here for at least 20 years.

The Tembe Indians say around 40% of their land has been cleared, but the government ignored pleas to do anything about it.

[SDF]

Most organizations have guidelines for contact with aboriginal tribes. Sure if you send in any old John in that doesn't follow any health procedures, touches them/their stuff/food without sanitation you will encounter problems, but it is really easy to prevent any contamination.


There isn't any reason to go and disrupt their way of life to inflate our egos about how much help we are to them. If people really want to help others, donate some time and energy to Habitat for Humanity (http://www.habitat.org/) or volunteer for a local soup kitchen. Stop armchair philosophizing about how great Western culture would be for these poor savages and rectify your guilty conscience by actually getting up and helping someone.

Thats my point, there isn't any reason to go there. But if you don't like armchair philosophizing I suggest you find a different internets.


Because loggers are tearing down the forest to make room for agricultural development and this will inevitably put these people out of a home and bring them into conflict with our culture. I posted a link to an article about it a page or two ago.

Edit: Here's another article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7395781.stm). (Not the same people, but geographically close and with a similar issue.)

Illegal logging is a problem, but if the countries government doesn't want to do anything about it there is little else that can be done. We, and the aboriginal tribes will have to deal with each other if or when the logging gets that far.

[Felixaar]

And apparently there are 100 uncontacted tribes existing in the world. Just bizzare to think that here I am typing on my computer in my climate-controlled building munching on my fast food lunch and there they are living like in the hunter gatherer days. I think the culture shock goes both ways. :smalleek:

Worst part is that we have no proof that we're not just some uncontacted tribe.

"Oh, look at those stupid people. Using the internet."
"Yeah. When do you think they'll catch up, and start using the double internet?"

[ghost_warlock]

Illegal logging is a problem, but if the countries government doesn't want to do anything about it there is little else that can be done. We, and the aboriginal tribes will have to deal with each other if or when the logging gets that far.

My point, exactly, if the governments of the involved countries can't be counted on to protect the indigenous people form illegal logging, what insurances do we have that they'll maintain proper procedure for contacting these people to prevent health risks?

[Solo]

My point, exactly, if the governments of the involved countries can't be counted on to protect the indigenous people form illegal logging, what insurances do we have that they'll maintain proper procedure for contacting these people to prevent health risks?

Controlling your own employees is different from controlling a criminal enterprise.

I am of the opinion that, to counter this problem, the natives should have an open season on poachers and illegal loggers with no bag limit.

[SDF]

My point, exactly, if the governments of the involved countries can't be counted on to protect the indigenous people form illegal logging, what insurances do we have that they'll maintain proper procedure for contacting these people to prevent health risks?

Well if you want to play that hypothetical the answers would be; none, and they are screwed. But there is no motivation for anyone to contact them and do it wrong. Any organization that would bother to would also logically bother to do it right. The reality of it though, is that sooner or later they will have to face the health concerns of the rest of a global society, and will have to count on evolution to survive it.


I am of the opinion that, to counter this problem, the natives should have an open season on poachers and illegal loggers with no bad limit.

Well I'm pretty sure you can already do that... I mean not legally, but no one is going to stop you. The loggers and poachers certainly aren't going to go to the authorities. >_>

[ghost_warlock]

I am of the opinion that, to counter this problem, the natives should have an open season on poachers and illegal loggers with no bad limit.

For this purpose, I would totally advocate air-dropping a bunch of modern bows and arrows. :smallwink:

[Solo]

For this purpose, I would totally advocate air-dropping a bunch of modern bows and arrows. :smallwink:

Imperialist.

[SDF]

For this purpose, I would totally advocate air-dropping a bunch of modern bows and arrows. :smallwink:

On that note I have to wonder if many of these tribes are in no fly zones. It would be kind of funny to one day make contact with a tribe and find that they are all worshiping the all powerful Airbus.

[ghost_warlock]

On that note I have to wonder if many of these tribes are in no fly zones. It would be kind of funny to one day make contact with a tribe and find that they are all worshiping the all powerful Airbus.

So, kinda like the Cargo Cults (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cults)?


Imperialist.

Say...what? :smallconfused: Please tell me this is some sort of sarcasm and not a strangely off-base ad hominem.

[Mr. Mud]

How come nobody was excited last year when they found a massive tribe? That got noooo media attention...

Oddly enough, I can't grasp amazonians (I think?), thousands, perphaps hundreds of thousands of amazionians, living in the jungle, not once stumbling onto a archaeologist's camp, or a lumbering camp, or hell even wandering into Brasília itself. :frown:

Anyone else find it kinda coincidential that they were found that close to an Indiana Jones movie? I seriously hope this isn't another War of the Worlds clique :eek:

[ghost_warlock]

How come nobody was excited last year when they found a massive tribe? That got noooo media attention...

Oddly enough, I can't grasp amazonians (I think?), thousands, perphaps hundreds of thousands of amazionians, living in the jungle, not once stumbling onto a archaeologist's camp, or a lumbering camp, or hell even wandering into Brasília itself. :frown:

Anyone else find it kinda coincidential that they were found that close to an Indiana Jones movie? I seriously hope this isn't another War of the Worlds clique :eek:

The governments down there have known about them for years, as was stated in at least one of the articles. Saying that they are uncontacted is a bit of a misnomer because, at some point, they've told people to bugger off and leave them alone. In this instance, it appears that uncontacted actually means that they haven't been repeatedly contacted beyond a "hey, we're people from outside the jungle." "Oh, really? Well, go away then." "K." (Oversimplifying, I'm sure.)

The only reason these photos are being released now is that people are trying to spread awareness and drum up support for doing something about these tribes because environmentalists, anthropologists, and previously contacted indigenous people are a bit upset about the lack of regard the government has shown for the people affected by the logging (which the government has done jack-all about for the last 20 years).

Consolodated relevent articles
#1 (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24880941/?GT1=43001)
#2 (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iRk0QGW-Tz0q6PP7y36N3CwOgH_wD9105MUG0)
#3 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7426794.stm)
#4 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7395781.stm)

[Thiefree]

It's pretty much inevitable that they'll eventually join the rest of the world, even if it's through their own efforts. Won't that be weird? Stepping out of their little area and finding the whole world saying "oh, wow, hi, you're up."

[Ranna]

I agree with ghost_warlock I think they are using it as a way to grab the public attention to illegal logging.

Brazil have a really big thing against logging in general and believe it or not are one of the few south American/central American countries that have been trying to curb it recently.

What better way to get public support by drumming up a story... it seems no one cares about endangered animals anymore lets show them a colony of humans that are endangered from the logging companies and see where that gets us.

Maybe they want funding from somewhere to try to stop logging...

[poleboy]

Cultures come and go. The rainforests will not be there forever, and by then this tribe will have to start assimilating into the surrounding society. They might as well get started now.
Thinking that you can preserve tribes like these in their pre-historic state forever is meaningless. It would be like insisting that America was given back to the natives, Europe be divided into hundreds of quarreling city-states, every black person moved to Africa, every Asian person moved to Asia and so forth. Cultures mix and change, it's not exactly a new fad.

[SMEE]

They're hardly "Uncontacted". Every tribe up there has had contact with civilization in one way or another, but a few (about 90, from what I recall reading from "Funai", the governamental department who deals with them) prefer to avoid further contact.

[SurlySeraph]

Personally, I think we should make contact with them. It'll be a boon for our understanding of human culture and language (I know an anthropologist who spent a few years with the Waurani) and biologists (indigineous groups are often very, very knowledgeable about plants that new medicines can be derived from). Once mainstream civilization has learned all that they can teach, we let the members who want to join civilization join and the members who don't want to stay in the wilderness. If we ever really need the land that they inhabit, we force them to integrate into civilization then. Simple as that.

[ghost_warlock]

Cultures come and go. The rainforests will not be there forever, and by then this tribe will have to start assimilating into the surrounding society. They might as well get started now.
Thinking that you can preserve tribes like these in their pre-historic state forever is meaningless. It would be like insisting that America was given back to the natives, Europe be divided into hundreds of quarreling city-states, every black person moved to Africa, every Asian person moved to Asia and so forth. Cultures mix and change, it's not exactly a new fad.

On your first point, the sun is eventually going to swell and consume the Earth, why don't we all just kill ourselves now and get it over with?

On your second point, um, no. Arguing that people should be able to continue living in the same place in the same way is nothing like arguing that you should move everyone all over the place based on where their ancestors may have come from.

[Thiefree]

How does hiding the real world from them benefit them in any way? Yes, it will be a culture shock when (not if) the rest of the world makes contact, but trying to convince them that we don't exist is dishonest and pointless.

[North]

How does hiding the real world from them benefit them in any way? Yes, it will be a culture shock when (not if) the rest of the world makes contact, but trying to convince them that we don't exist is dishonest and pointless.

Totally agree with this.

Id also be curious if the whole tribe even gets a say in if they dont want to be in contact with the big world. Or if its a decision made by village elders/chief/shaman who dont want to lose thier personal power over everyone else or are scared of change.:smallamused: I cant see many mothers turning down medicine and doctors to save their babies and children form dying because they like living in a hut and using sticks more then thier kids welfare.

[ghost_warlock]

How does hiding the real world from them benefit them in any way? Yes, it will be a culture shock when (not if) the rest of the world makes contact, but trying to convince them that we don't exist is dishonest and pointless.

:smallsigh: Read the thread/articles.

They know we exist, nobody's trying to pretend otherwise.