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serok42
2008-05-31, 02:18 PM
Would a 6th level Beguiler (or warmage) 10th level Rainbow Servant (Complete Divine) actually be able to spontaneously cast all Cleric spells?

A friend of mine was wanting to play something like this in an upcoming game. There has to be an eratta somewhere on this.

The cleric spell access ability of the Rainbow Servant adds all cleric spells to your spell list and the beguiler casts all spells on their spell list spontaneously.

Of course you have to be 16th level before you can cast the cleric spells but it just seem overpowered to me if you can actually do this. The Favored Soul has to pick and choose.

UserClone
2008-05-31, 02:43 PM
I'm not sure, RAW. It states that they can learn such spells and cast them normally, so I would think you'd have to learn it off of a scroll or have it taught to you by a friendly cleric first.

Valairn
2008-05-31, 02:58 PM
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ask/20080508a

I believe this should answer your question. The sage has ruled that the warmage would get all the spells. The beguiler acquires spells in a similar fashion, so it isn't a stretch at all to let someone do this, nor is really that overpowered, though that is an opinion and it depends on who you talk to.

UserClone
2008-05-31, 03:09 PM
I stand corrected. GO-GO-GADGET-RAINBOW-BEGUILER!

Jack_Simth
2008-05-31, 03:59 PM
Do note:
How broken it is depends on the Text vs. Table discrepancy.

The class table lists four lost caster levels - and with a mere d4 hit die, one good save, half BAB, the minimal 2+int skill points per caster level, and that you'll be two full spell levels behind in spell access - it's not particularly busted, even with the full access. Sure, you have the perfect spell for the job ... but at level 16, it has to be 6th level or less at a time when you're expected to have 8th level spells. Not too hot.

The text for the Spells per Day/Spells Known ability, however, does not include the lost caster levels - it's simply "When a new rainbow servant level is gained" - without the "except at levels X, Y, Z" like the Hospitaler has. If you check the errata, this is not addressed specifically - however, all WotC errata include the "Text Trumps Table" clause.... and if you go by that, it's a full progression PrC that gives you access to an absurd number of spells, and is quite broken when used with a Warmage or a Beguiler base.

Chronos
2008-05-31, 04:49 PM
For comparison, look at a straight cleric. Assuming the table is correct, and that Rainbow Servant loses those four caster levels, a level 16 or 17 beguiler/rainbow servant can spontaneously cast any cleric or beguiler spell of 6th level or less. Meanwhile, a cleric of level 17 can spontaneously cast any cleric spell of 8th level or less, or any other spell of 7th level or less, thanks to Miracle. Sure, you only get so many Miracles per day, but you also have all of your other spells, and in any given situation where you'd want to cast a spell, chances are pretty good that you have it prepared, anyway. Miracle just serves to fill in the gaps in what you prepared. Nor does the beguiler ever really catch up again: He can't cast 8th-level spells until level 20, and he never gets the ability to cast any 9th-level spells, spontaneously or otherwise. So you've got nine levels in the middle of your progression where you're decidedly unimpressive, then one level where you can pull off a nifty trick that the cleric can't yet, and then four more levels where the cleric blows you away.

Edea
2008-05-31, 05:20 PM
Rainbow Servant is far superior in Epic play (assuming the lost caster levels).

Since the spells picked up literally are cast as divine spells (wth, WotC?), your Beguiler will double the number of Epic Spell Slots per day available to them without losing a single caster level or Normal Spell Slot per day, so long as you pick up Practiced Spellcaster. Also, they will have access to -all- the Epic Spell seeds, on top of branching their normal spell list known out to include the whole Cleric list.

In normal play, Rainbow Servant is only playable if it doesn't lose any caster levels (in which case it's about as borked as the Planar Shepherd).

Chronos
2008-05-31, 07:00 PM
Since the spells picked up literally are cast as divine spells (wth, WotC?), your Beguiler will double the number of Epic Spell Slots per day available to themDon't Beguilers get all Knowledges as class skills? In that case, it's triple, since you can max out your Arcana, Religion, and Nature.

In normal play, Rainbow Servant is only playable if it doesn't lose any caster levels (in which case it's about as borked as the Planar Shepherd).I wouldn't go that far. It's underpowered compared to other full casters, but it's still far above most non-casters. Even monks are playable, if you don't mind being behind the curve. Nor is it ever as broken as Planar Shepherd, considering that first, the Planar Shepherd brokenness starts immediately, not after ten levels, and second, there's nothing on the Beguiler or Cleric lists as powerful as free Wishes or 10:1 time dilation.

Edea
2008-05-31, 07:03 PM
Oh yeah, it's triple :D.

Jack_Simth
2008-05-31, 08:10 PM
Rainbow Servant is far superior in Epic play (assuming the lost caster levels).

Since the spells picked up literally are cast as divine spells (wth, WotC?), your Beguiler will double the number of Epic Spell Slots per day available to them without losing a single caster level or Normal Spell Slot per day, so long as you pick up Practiced Spellcaster. Also, they will have access to -all- the Epic Spell seeds, on top of branching their normal spell list known out to include the whole Cleric list.

In normal play, Rainbow Servant is only playable if it doesn't lose any caster levels (in which case it's about as borked as the Planar Shepherd).

It's not all the spells picked up that are cast as divine spells - just the ones that don't show up on either the Sor/Wiz or Bard spell lists - which is quite a few of them, granted, but not all of them. That's a minor nitpick, though, as you're discussing it in terms of Epic Spellcasting.

FinalJustice
2008-05-31, 08:32 PM
It may work in a game when you start at enough high level to pull the trick, but in an actual campaign, I think that's too much time living with suck (namely, two full spell levels behind the party) before a huge power boom.
But, once you have all the cleric list as spontaneous casting is pretty much a solid build. Even 2 spell levels behind the party, means you can cherrypick buffs, wards and cures on the fly. Pretty solid support, and given time, you can C'zilla, as long as you protect yourself with some beguiler goodies and keep an eye on your HP, or apply cheese (Warmage Ecletic Learning Draconic Polymorph).

ChaosDefender24
2008-05-31, 08:57 PM
It works.

There's no point in having tons of 7th level spells at your fingertips, though, when there's 9th level spells, which leave these in the dust.

Paul H
2008-06-01, 02:29 PM
Hi

Yes the Beguiler/Warmage with 10 lvls of Rainbow Servant do get all the Cleric spells, but that just makes them an awesome spontaneous spellcaster, allbeit with less HP than a Cleric. (And only able to cast spells in light armour).

Of course, you won't get the turn undead attempts, and all the extra cheese that brings. You also won't get all the extra abilities of a higher level Beguiler/Warmage, including the extra feats - so there is a trade off. (Though I would be happy to trade).

Cheers
Paul H

marjan
2008-06-02, 06:28 AM
Don't Beguilers get all Knowledges as class skills?


No, they only get Arcana and Local as class skills.

Frosty
2008-06-02, 12:11 PM
No, they only get Arcana and Local as class skills.

Which pisses me off to no end.