A question of economics and diamonds

[cantusaeolus]

I'ma fairly long time Lurker, and have only just decided to join in. I apologise for my first post being so random, but I can't find another thread that covers these topics, so I thought I'd enquire.

While bantering in my regular Monday Night D&D game, someone randomly came up with the idea of economics, and it's link to life restoration.

To whit, how big is a diamond worth 5k(such as one might use for raise dead), and does local economics affect that?

For instance, Let's say I'm in the capital of the Holy City of Awesome Lawful and Goodness, where King Fantastical has ruled for the the Land of Milk and Honey for the last twenty years, and the land is bountiful under his reign, and diamonds are easily imported from the Dwarven Mines of Khazad O Rly. A diamond would have to be fairly hefty to cost 5k.

The converse of that is also true. Let's say I'm hiding out in the Holy City of Awesome Lawful and Goodness, after King Fantastical's jealous elder brother, Prince Far Too Sneaky For His Own Good has deposed his brother by summoning a demon army and taking over. He then proceeded to install martial law, curfews, demons patrolling the streets, etc. Since the cost of smuggling anything at all into the city is going to be exorbitant, and the dwarves aren't trading with the new boss, a 5k diamond isn't going to be that big.

So here's a question.

If I bought a diamond before the return of Prince Far Too Sneaky that was worth 2.5k, thinking I'd eventually buy another one to ensure the survival of the party. Then the demons came, and the diamond I have would now cost 5k.

Can I use it to cast Raise Dead? Despite the fact that I only paid 2.5k for it?

If I can, does that mean it's worth buying diamonds in a place where they're common, and then going to an economic sinkhole before trying to cast my Ressurection?

This concept caused a bit of debate, and a further concept came out. If peple became aware of this, in game, would this cause the existance of a group whose entire purpose was to buy diamonds for 5k, go to places where the same diamond costs 10k and offer to cast Res on people for 9k rather than 10? If the value of the diamond is set by the economy, rather than some guy handing me 9000gp, then you could make a cool 8k per day., until you ran out of diamonds.

Then, when the rush of people wanting res spells started(since unless it costs a grand to get to you and back, it's worth it), and the local economy of the area that the group was based in improved, they could take the now less valuable diamonds, and relocate...

Rinse and repeat.

Also, could the value of diamonds depend on the value of diamonds? For instance, I have no diamonds, and I need to raise a dead comrade. It's clear that 4999gp worth of diamonds isn't worth nearly as much to me as a flat 5k, since one of those values can be used to raise a party member and the other can not. So how much more valuable is 5k of diamonds than 4.9k? Is it worth 0.1k more, or does the fact that I can use it for more stuff raise the value further? Is the life of one's tragically slain companion worth more than 100gp?

We couldn't come up with concrete answers(though for the last part, it may have had something to do with not wanting to put a gp value on co-adventurers' lives :smallwink:), so I thought I'd see what other people thought...

[Xuincherguixe]

I think, diamonds are assumed to cost the same everywhere. Even when it doesn't make sense.

You have a choice in the matter, as to if it's the size, or the cost of the diamond that matters.

[elliott20]

the problem you have going on there is that your mixing the principle of sliding price scales against a system that objectively values things at a consistent price.

D&D has always function on the premise that prices are set and pegged and things like inflation, recessions, and such simply do not happen.

The reasoning, of course, is simple: it's a game balance decision. why? because the game designers at it's core wanted to put a bit of a constraint on the resurrection spells. Now, in a game that tries the standardize everything, the one thing that they must establish is an objective resource that they can use as a measuring unit.

If, on the other hand, you've decided to let the D&D function like a real economy, the cost of spells would change from "must use a diamond of 5000 gp worth" (a price set within a world where prices don't shift) to something where a diamond is measured in some other fashion.

Now, that would probably feel a bit more realistic, and you can certainly see a rise in magical entrepeneurs who focus on buying components at bulk prices and hten using them to fuel their spells services. But then you'd have a lot of work on your hands as your standard of measurement (which prior was fixed) has been thrown out the window.

[ElHugo]

I'd say that the most 'reasonable' interpretation of this would be that you need a diamond (or collection of diamonds) which isn't defined in the spell description, but rather in the game world - the 'standard' price for the X amount of diamonds needed to cast a raise dead happens to be 5K. Therefore, as a DM, I could indeed consider allowing players to go off and look for somewhere where that quantity of diamonds is cheaper, or conversely I could choose to make that amount of diamonds cost more, if that would be 'reasonable' in the game world (large amounts of resurrections? Something that hit the diamond supply of the world? Severe trade disruptions where they can't mine them themselves?).

Either one can be an opportunity for the players to do something and gain an advantage out of it - if they put the IC effort into it. But unless it comes up, it might be perfectly reasonable to just overlook the entire question ingame.

[elliott20]

think of it in terms of purchasing power.

in D&D, currency does not undergo inflation or deflation. their value is consistent, as is the prices of all goods. The moment you start to assume any good can undergo price shifts, you introduce a whole different can of worms by implication.

5000 gp in standard D&D will always be able to get you one diamond, or 3 suits of full plate mail (I think it's 1500 gp) with 500 gp left over, or 50000 days of service from an untrained laborer (making 1 sp per day).

this functions entirely independant of concepts like supply and demand because the moment you introduce these concepts into a game, the game WILL fall apart or become far too complex to play easily. Suddenly, you have to consider how money is going to effect the local economy, or if by bring all this cash on you, you've automatically caused some kind of inflation, or a society, because of your actions, has an actual increase in purchasing power, etc.

[Emperor Tippy]

The amount or size of the diamonds doesn't matter. All that matters is that you payed 5K for them, and that if you found them then you would value them at 5K.

A better idea would have been to do it by weight (1 gram of diamond dust for example) and then just had a note that the general cost for that amount is 5K.

[elliott20]

The amount or size of the diamonds doesn't matter. All that matters is that you payed 5K for them, and that if you found them then you would value them at 5K.

A better idea would have been to do it by weight (1 gram of diamond dust for example) and then just had a note that the general cost for that amount is 5K.
but then we get into the question of the cut, clarity, carat weight, and color!

I kid I kid.

[Emperor Tippy]

but then we get into the question of the cut, clarity, carat weight, and color!

I kid I kid.

*shrug*

I honestly just give all my wizards a pouch, put in gold and you can draw out an expensive material component. Cost's 500 GP to buy and from then on I never have to worry about it again, makes book keeping so much easier.

[Dark Tira]

Moreover, diamonds are considered trade goods and not items in the system. They do not lose value on resale so they are just another form of currency. It's kind of like asking if you could buy 100 gold pieces for 500 silver. Is the gold worth 100 good or 500 silver?

[nagora]

It's about sacrifice. You have to sacrifice 5,000gp AND you use that sacrifice to purchase diamond(s) for the ritual.

If you pay 4,000gp for the diamond then your sacrifice is 4,000gp no matter what the local price is where you are when the spell is cast.

[Blanks]

The only way to go is to go with weight or some other measurement, otherwise these examples will crop up:

1)
Player A is given a diamond by the king. As a gift, it cost nothing and can therefore not be used. (value equals what you paid for the item)

2)
Player A finds a person in the marketplace willing to buy the diamond and suddenly it can be used (value equals price on open market)

3)
Player A, having learned from last time, buys a diamond for 1 GP and has player B SWEAR that he would buy it for 5K. Suddenly it is usable. (value as rules lawyering sthick to beat the DM with...)

4)
???

5)
Nomatter what you end up with, this will end up with profit for the players somewhere along the line :)


EDIT:
"Ninjas - This picture contains 4 of them"

[Dark Tira]

The only way to go is to go with weight or some other measurement, otherwise these examples will crop up:

1)
Player A is given a diamond by the king. As a gift, it cost nothing and can therefore not be used. (value equals what you paid for the item)

2)
Player A finds a person in the marketplace willing to buy the diamond and suddenly it can be used (value equals price on open market)

3)
Player A, having learned from last time, buys a diamond for 1 GP and has player B SWEAR that he would buy it for 5K. Suddenly it is usable. (value as rules lawyering sthick to beat the DM with...)

4)
???

5)
Nomatter what you end up with, this will end up with profit for the players somewhere along the line :)

Again, diamonds have intrinsic value in the D&D universe. If the king gave you diamonds for free that are worth 5000 gold then they can be used as a spell component worth 5000 gold.

[nagora]

Again, diamonds have intrinsic value in the D&D universe.
The only things with intrinsic worth are food and water. Diamonds, or anything you can't live off, having the same set worth everywhere is a convienient notion but not something that should be applied to every setting all the time. There is nothing wrong with a DM saying that diamonds in one place cost half what the cost somewhere else, or that all diamonds everywhere are so common that they are worthless.

[Citizen Joe]

It isn't how much you pay for it, it is how much it is 'worth'. If you went by the OP logic, you couldn't use stolen diamonds.

Think of it a bit as karats, so you need a certain number of karat weight of diamonds to use for your spell. Now there is an assumption here that spell components can be purchased from an alchemical supplier. So they are going to have 'spell grade' diamonds that are weighted out for various spells and will likely cost the stated amount. I'm sure they are getting their raw materials from elsewhere, like the chippings from a jeweler.

Example: Lets say you need 50 karats weight of diamonds to do your spell. The gold standard for diamonds is 50 karats for 100 lbs of gold. Mr. DeBears has a diamond mine and mineral rights so he's getting raw diamonds for labor costs and taxes. By carefully cutting these raw diamonds, he turns them from gemstones into jewelry. So at the cost of maybe 20% of the weight, he can create jewelry that can sell for 10 times the material costs. The 'waste' material might be ground into a fine powder or used for other decorations, but mostly the market is for magic. So that 5000 gp by weight raw diamond becomes 1000 gp by weight diamond chips/dust and an 40,000 gp value ring. When he gets enough 'waste' together, he sells it as a at market value.

Looking at the gold piece. 50 gps weigh 1 lbs. and 1 lb of gold is worth 50 gps. That may seem like simple math, but that isn't how currency is supposed to work. The coin is supposed to have more buying power than it's constituent inherent value. When an economy works based solely on the inherent value of the coin, that means there is no faith in the existing government. The coin is essentially bullion. So its value is exactly the value of the weight of gold (or silver) in the coin. Making this bullion into coins is merely an easy way to count the weight without a scale. You could just as easily have bars or ingots with the weight stamped on the surface. In any case, bullion was not intended for circulation.

[Dark Tira]

The only things with intrinsic worth are food and water. Diamonds, or anything you can't live off, having the same set worth everywhere is a convienient notion but not something that should be applied to every setting all the time. There is nothing wrong with a DM saying that diamonds in one place cost half what the cost somewhere else, or that all diamonds everywhere are so common that they are worthless.
Technically, food and water don't necessarily have any intrinsic value in D&D. There's nothing wrong with a DM manipulating diamond value from place to place but it goes against RAW and it certainly seems to make things more complicated.

[batsofchaos]

From a purely adjudicative perspective, the ruling I would make as a DM is that the diamonds need to have a base value of 5000 gp, which is determined based on weight. Any price shifts dependent on availability and expenses incurred do not count towards the diamond's base value. This isn't perfect from a realistic economy perspective, but it does okay for a DnD game.

[Dark Tira]

From a purely adjudicative perspective, the ruling I would make as a DM is that the diamonds need to have a base value of 5000 gp, which is determined based on weight. Any price shifts dependent on availability and expenses incurred do not count towards the diamond's base value. This isn't perfect from a realistic economy perspective, but it does okay for a DnD game.

Actually, that's pretty much how the rules say it works.

[batsofchaos]

I didn't think there was a defined rule, other than "price of items has the inherent idea of a static economy," and my take is just a logical step of static value placed in a dynamic economy.

Honestly, none of it makes sense. It exists solely as a ding to inflict on the characters. "Yeah you can resurrect John, but you need to shell out 5000 smackers to do it." Economics doesn't, and shouldn't really enter the situation.

It's not an uninteresting concept, though. If the players need to res someone and the place their in simply doesn't have diamonds for an affordable amount (like, they have 100 gp-valued diamonds marked up to 10000 gp), it presents and interesting adventure opportunity as a way to get ahold of the material components. It would be tedious for everyone if every time the players needed to cast fireball they needed to raid a cave for some bat guano, but used judiciously it can heighten the gaming experience.

In a similar vein, playing with economies a party could make a decent hunk of money. If said town had a huge mark-up on diamonds the players could conceivably set up a smuggling operation to flood the black market with diamonds, reaping in huge profits in the process. There are plenty of adventure opportunities hidden in the idea.

[FlyMolo]

*shrug*

I honestly just give all my wizards a pouch, put in gold and you can draw out an expensive material component. Cost's 500 GP to buy and from then on I never have to worry about it again, makes book keeping so much easier.

Ditto, but mine's magic, and also makes 10 foot poles and rowboats and such.

[Blanks]

Again, diamonds have intrinsic value in the D&D universe. If the king gave you diamonds for free that are worth 5000 gold then they can be used as a spell component worth 5000 gold.
That would be my take on it, but it also lessens the possibilities that the OP was exploring. I merely listed a series of good arguments why it has to be measured by weight (and as weight=price in DnD, it gives us base value)

[mostlyharmful]

Diamonds and Black Onyx are the two most clearly, unarguably magical materials, wizards and clerics are all after them. We now have a market including an elite group who all have the ability to shift planes, bind outsiders/elementals, contact any reputable dealer through sending and negotiate in any language you care to deal in.

Demand can indeed alter prices but you've got to take into account that other magic users know that and are prepared to supply anywhere in all the multiverse on two minutes notice with all the gems you could want. Supply seems to be universal.

[puppyavenger]

Again, diamonds have intrinsic value in the D&D universe. If the king gave you diamonds for free that are worth 5000 gold then they can be used as a spell component worth 5000 gold.

So, in the D&D universe, diomonds have an intristic value but sapient life doesn't?
seriosly, lookat the 10-minute duration example for PAO, now look at the caveat that says you can create anything intristiclyvlauable.
also, ture creation, you no longer need to buy them.

[Hal]

The only time I might mess with supply/demand issues would be as a plot device, or perhaps a GM tool.

For example, you know the next phase of the adventure is going to be filled with death, of both the frequent and obscene varieties. You can thus make your setting in a town with an attached diamond mine, where the value of diamonds is so high, a Res costs something like 1000gp or less. Heck, you could make it free if you can get the players to pony something up to their supplier or NPC cleric.

Alternative example: You don't want your players to spend weeks hauling out the dragon's hoard so they can buy whatever they want in the town nearby. Solution: The town is flush with gold, to the point that copper pieces have replaced them in value (Insert reasonable explanation here). It should convince them to move on.

[tyckspoon]

So, in the D&D universe, diomonds have an intristic value but sapient life doesn't?
seriosly, lookat the 10-minute duration example for PAO, now look at the caveat that says you can create anything intristiclyvlauable.
also, ture creation, you no longer need to buy them.

Sure. Diamonds are magical. Sapients aren't. Do humans value the lives of orcs, or vice versa? Typically no, but they're both intelligent races (and far more similar to each other than something like, say, mind flayers, which don't value any other form of sapience except as food..) Each group will value diamonds at roughly the same amount, however, thanks to their function as magical material. Once again, magic is worth more than almost any amount of non-magic. Very D&D.

[Toliudar]

Nope, can't go by weight either. On a low-gravity world, you'd have to spend more to bring someone back to life.

Seriously - of all the sciences that D&D massacres, surely economics is the most mutilated. To pick at this one thread of unreason in a tapestry of gobbledegook is, itself, silly.

[batsofchaos]

Fine, the mass not the weight.

[mostlyharmful]

surely economics is the most mutilated

I'd go with physics myself, and economists only rate their discipline as a science to create lucrative confidence in their half-assed half-informed guestamations anyway:smalleek:

[puppyavenger]

Sure. Diamonds are magical. Sapients aren't. Do humans value the lives of orcs, or vice versa? Typically no, but they're both intelligent races (and far more similar to each other than something like, say, mind flayers, which don't value any other form of sapience except as food..) Each group will value diamonds at roughly the same amount, however, thanks to their function as magical material. Once again, magic is worth more than almost any amount of non-magic. Very D&D.

an epic cleric with ignore materials values them less than a non-epic cleric...
A member of a hunter-gatherer soicity in an area without diomonds doesn't value them, even if they are a powerfull spell-caster.
Any god of death sure as hell doesn't value them...
The rules don't state they're magical...
you can create them with true creation.

[Trog]

Looking at the gold piece. 50 gps weigh 1 lbs. and 1 lb of gold is worth 50 gps. That may seem like simple math, but that isn't how currency is supposed to work. The coin is supposed to have more buying power than it's constituent inherent value. When an economy works based solely on the inherent value of the coin, that means there is no faith in the existing government. The coin is essentially bullion. So its value is exactly the value of the weight of gold (or silver) in the coin. Making this bullion into coins is merely an easy way to count the weight without a scale. You could just as easily have bars or ingots with the weight stamped on the surface. In any case, bullion was not intended for circulation.
(Emphasis mine)
Have you SEEN how many failed and toppled/evil empires there are?!? No faith in government is right. :smalltongue:

Bullion is not intended for circulation... nowadays. But back when, that's how they valued the coin. It was why people used to shave the edges of coins off... to get enough to melt down and sell without devaluing their coins. It's the reason that coins have raised, defined edges - to prevent this practice. Obviously it leads to other problems too which is why it is no longer done. But being as DnD is sort of Ye Olde Time-y they stick with the, as you put it, "bullion" system. Paper money just doesn't have the same feel to it somehow.

The OP brings up a very good question. Basing any magical effect on the market value of a component is a bit silly if you look at it in real world economic terms. A more constant measurement would be needed. Volume, weight, etc. But am I going to use a system like that? No. I prefer my monies (gem or otherwise) to be constant. Like a gem with 1,000 GP stamped right on it. :smalltongue:

[Emperor Tippy]

Like a gem with 1,000 GP stamped right on it. :smalltongue:

That could actually be part of a quite fun, tongue in cheek, world. When the gods created the world all natural gods were given a GP value, which is stamped on them. Gold, silver, and copper come out of the ground pre formed as coins. etc.

[puppyavenger]

Slightly related question, who mints the coins anyway? and if you say that gold is inherently valuable and all civilised cultures think it has the exact same value...:furious:

[Blanks]

If diamonds are magic because they are a spell component, does that make bat guano magical as well?

High fantasy and all, but thats a lot of magic :smalltongue:

[Prophaniti]

@Blanks: Spell components are no more magical than anything else in the universe, why they're needed for a particular spell depends on the rules of magic in your setting.

As others have said, if you decide to inject a living economy into your campaign, good for you. A lot more bookkeeping, but makes it more immersive too. You will, though, have to assign another method of measurement for the value of spell components, since keeping the gp requirement in a living economy is going to raise far too many issues and loopholes. For diamonds specifically, I'd probably use weight if it were my game, or maybe carats, though it'd be annoying to have to keep track of the carats of the various diamonds you loot. Weight'd be much easier.

[Frosty]

(Emphasis mine)
Have you SEEN how many failed and toppled/evil empires there are?!? No faith in government is right. :smalltongue:

Bullion is not intended for circulation... nowadays. But back when, that's how they valued the coin. It was why people used to shave the edges of coins off... to get enough to melt down and sell without devaluing their coins. It's the reason that coins have raised, defined edges - to prevent this practice. Obviously it leads to other problems too which is why it is no longer done. But being as DnD is sort of Ye Olde Time-y they stick with the, as you put it, "bullion" system. Paper money just doesn't have the same feel to it somehow.

The OP brings up a very good question. Basing any magical effect on the market value of a component is a bit silly if you look at it in real world economic terms. A more constant measurement would be needed. Volume, weight, etc. But am I going to use a system like that? No. I prefer my monies (gem or otherwise) to be constant. Like a gem with 1,000 GP stamped right on it. :smalltongue:

Using a valuable metal as currency also brings other problems. From the Economicon:

Using valuable commodities as a medium of exchange inhibits the growth of the economy. As long as a certain portion of the wealth is locked up in currency, the economy is strangled coming and going: not only is there a completely arbitrary limit on how many goods and services can be exchanged (the gold supply), but there is also a limit on the kinds of industry and artistic expression that can occur (in that if you use gold for anything but currency you're actually shrinking the money supply and producing negative GDP).

[monty]

Economics, how I hate thee. Between Academic Decathlon and two AP tests, I've had about enough of that.

Anyway, on topic, I'd think that having a dynamic (that is, realistic) economy would be interesting, but far too complex for the average DM.

[batsofchaos]

Regarding the concept of economies in campaigns, I've run a couple of experiments in my campaign with varying success. My most recent campaign centered around the goal of starting a colony on a mostly uncharted island. Since there were no other towns nearby and everyone there was contracted work, there was no local economy. The party had to subsist on barter if they couldn't get what they were looking for on their own.

It...didn't work very well. The WBL got kind of screwed up (they leveled but didn't get monies, since threats on the island didn't have any treasure, either) and no one was particularly interested in playing through the minutia of finding materials to make things that they'd normally just buy. Once the town was off the ground and functioning financially, things leveled back out to normal.

On the other hand, another society that is a great distance from the main focus has abundant gold to the point where it's not worth much, and instead uses oils and spices as currency. This change was more successful, because this descrepancy led to a side-quest obtaining 'money' to complete the main mission. It became a "flavor of something different" instead of a chore that got in the way of rules.

[Aquillion]

It works this way because its dungeons and dragons, not dungeons and stockbrokers.

Additionally, as the poster of the above post found out, adding detailed economics makes it very very hard to maintain WBL.

[Blanks]

@Blanks: Spell components are no more magical than anything else in the universe, why they're needed for a particular spell depends on the rules of magic in your setting.
I'm poking a bit of fun at "mostlyharmfull", that said diamonds are magical :)

@ Frosty

Using valuable commodities as a medium of exchange inhibits the growth of the economy. The biggest inhibitor of a medieval economy is the lack of trade, not that the money supply is too small. Therefore the use of gold as bartering object (or gems, spices or anything else portable) helps the economy, even if that method has flaws of its own.

[Eldritch_Ent]

My group ruled it was a combination of Diamonds AND Holy water that had to add up to at least 5000 GP... What the party lacks in Diamonds has to be made up with Holy Water, and vice versa, but has to contain at least 1 cp of both.

In one campaign, set on a cave system in the Plain of Earth that was literally paved with diamonds but where water was hugely valuable, it was getting the holy water that was tricky.

[tyckspoon]

My group ruled it was a combination of Diamonds AND Holy water that had to add up to at least 5000 GP... What the party lacks in Diamonds has to be made up with Holy Water, and vice versa, but has to contain at least 1 cp of both.

In one campaign, set on a cave system in the Plain of Earth that was literally paved with diamonds but where water was hugely valuable, it was getting the holy water that was tricky.

well, let's see.. one pint of holy water is worth 25 gp, which is 2,500 CP.. so... you could subdivide one pint into teaspoons (96 to a pint) and it would still have potency. Or way, way finer, but then you'd be having major problems finding containers that fine or having the water evaporate/soak into things in transit.

It probably wouldn't have been too hard to acquire some silver with which to cast Bless Water either, considering where you were.

[Frosty]

@ Frosty
The biggest inhibitor of a medieval economy is the lack of trade, not that the money supply is too small. Therefore the use of gold as bartering object (or gems, spices or anything else portable) helps the economy, even if that method has flaws of its own.

Well it really depends. In a world like Eberron, where airship and travel technology is abundant, trade is brisk.

[Khanderas]

It's about sacrifice. You have to sacrifice 5,000gp AND you use that sacrifice to purchase diamond(s) for the ritual.

If you pay 4,000gp for the diamond then your sacrifice is 4,000gp no matter what the local price is where you are when the spell is cast.
That is my take on it as well. Atlest the sacrifice part of it.

If you can sell the diamond for 5k where you are the monetary loss would be 5k no matter how much you bought it for.
1) Because if you looted a 5k worth diamond from an ogre you killed, noone question it can be used to res with... but that diamond cost you 0 gold.
2) A cut gem is always worth more then an uncut. That means you shave off a volume of the diamond (making it smaller) and it is worth more. So the point is not the amount of diamonds, its the sacrifice.

(The metagame reason it has to be a diamond is so you dont burn a mansion down and claim it was a res sacrifice, and possibly for DM plothooks).

So you have my blessing to use your small diamond to raise with. As if you ever needed it. If the DM's give you trouble, sell the small diamond for 5k. Then teleport to where the diamonds have "normal" worth and buy a big 5k diamond there. Res and teleport back. Or start up a diamond smuggling trade empire.

[Blanks]

Well it really depends. In a world like Eberron, where airship and travel technology is abundant, trade is brisk.
Yes, magic screws with the normal rules of economics, teleportation circles are also world changing if readily available. But unless trade is literally instant, like teleportation, the ability to move goods across space is a major concern for any economy (even today).

Gold and other stuff like it (gems and so on), also has the added advantage of being able to move goods across time. You can sell your apple today, store the money and buy a fresh apple another day. If your'e clever or lucky, you might even get interest on your money.

[Patashu]

I'm pretty sure '2.5k worth of crushed diamonds' or equivalent is supposed to refer to a measurement of volume according to some other standard. Thus, going to a poor or rich place won't effect your resurrection ability because the volume neccesary is constant, merely referred to by a value that has since changed because of local economic conditions.
I guess the D&D world just hasn't thought of measuring volumes in volumes yet.

[Citizen Joe]

I guess the D&D world just hasn't thought of measuring volumes in volumes yet.
DND has a long tradition of using the GP standard for measurements. Back in first edition, weights were measured in coins. I suspect you could convert everything to the gp standard. How far is it to the next town? About 2 gp by coach...

[Blanks]

I suspect you could convert everything to the gp standard. How far is it to the next town? About 2 gp by coach...

Phew its hot in here, I could drink a whole GP right now! :smallbiggrin:

[Citizen Joe]

How cold is it in the mountains? About 15 gp in cold weather gear and another gp per week in firewood.

Can we measure time in GPs?

EDIT: Note that you could probably convert GP's to HP's by way of the calculation for cure light wounds, which is 10 gp per casting with about 5 HP recovered... so 1 hp = 2 gps... So when you get hit, double the number and declare "24 gp damage to your wallet!"

[elliott20]

yeah you can, in labor hours.

it cost me 5 sp of unskilled labor days to get the job done.

[Citizen Joe]

Suddenly, all adventurers need Profession: Accountant

[elliott20]

so would sundering a weapon also be more like "I do 2315 gp worth of damage to his wallet by sundering his +1 sword!"

[mostlyharmful]

I'm poking a bit of fun at "mostlyharmfull", that said diamonds are magical :).

I stand by my point. It was pointy and pointastic, unlike your pointless self good sir:smalltongue:

[Waspinator]

I liking the idea of and sound of a Financomancer.

[Keld Denar]

Could you just imagine this situation...

Players: Here is 5000 gp in diamonds and our dead friend. Can you please call upon the power of your god to raise him?

Cleric: All praise be to Pelor, the Skyfather. May his rays shine upon this fallen advent...wait a moment, getting a divine fax. Hmmmm, this just in from the Temple of Zilchus, lord of trade and commerce. Due to recient events, the value of diamonds has decreased substantially. Oh dear oh dear, it appears you only have 4,995 gp worth of diamonds. There is nothing I can do, I'm sorry my sons.

Players: Awwwwwww


Something else, you could have the 2 of the players get into a bidding war over a piece of diamond recovered from a treasure horde.
Player 1: 100g for that diamond
Player 2: 200g!
Player 1: 1000g!
Player 2: 3000g!
Player 1: 5000g!
Cleric: Can I get a RAISE DEAD!!!!! HALELUJA!!!

Also, it specifies diamond dust. How exactly would you go about powdering the hardest substance known to man? You can't exactly pop it into a pestle and grind it with a morter. You can cut a diamond with another diamond, but could you really grind one? And the amount of force required to break apart the crystaline latice that a diamond forms, not to mention the strain hardening a given piece of diamond would gain in an attempt to grind it...I'm guessing a wizard would have to do it, which brings us the the value of magical mineral refinement....a whole new market niche!

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this thread is getting sillier and awesomer by the second. That is, by the 5/(60*60*24) sp :smallbiggrin:

[NephandiMan]

It's about sacrifice. You have to sacrifice 5,000gp AND you use that sacrifice to purchase diamond(s) for the ritual.

If you pay 4,000gp for the diamond then your sacrifice is 4,000gp no matter what the local price is where you are when the spell is cast.

Quoted for truth. It's like Full Metal Alchemist - 5000 gp is an equivalent exchange for raise dead. (Yes, I know that no one in that series was ever actually constrained by that rule, but work with me here).

[CASTLEMIKE]

If I bought a diamond before the return of Prince Far Too Sneaky that was worth 2.5k, thinking I'd eventually buy another one to ensure the survival of the party. Then the demons came, and the diamond I have would now cost 5k.

Can I use it to cast Raise Dead? Despite the fact that I only paid 2.5k for it?



No you cannot use it to cast Raise Dead sucessfully in all campaigns (3rd party impartial DM) unless the PCs purchased a "Hot" stolen diamond illegally through the black market or with a feat like Mercantile Background from PGtF for a diamond that is worth 5,000 gp or more market price normally. (The DM should be making a call. Spell failure possibly destroying the lesser valued diamond attempting to cast the spell, allowing the spell to drain an additional 500 experience points from the PC casting the spell to make up the difference in market price for the spell component having the spell not work properly calling back another soul for example (Good or Bad to pursue the dietie's (DM) agenda) or Questing/Geasing the spellcaster or the PC being raised)

PCs abusing that 5,000 gp market price loop hole repeatedly in game should remember cause and effect. DM NPCs or organizations with that kind of wealth can hire adventurers or professional spellcasters to locate their stolen property and have it returned. Occassionally the stolen diamond may only be a 5,000 gp diamond but it has great sentimental meaning to the organization or NPC it was stolen (Church Relic, Noble House's or Hero's signature item) from who will be willing to expend more than it's normal market price for it's return.

[Kd7sov]

Also, it specifies diamond dust. How exactly would you go about powdering the hardest substance known to man? You can't exactly pop it into a pestle and grind it with a morter. You can cut a diamond with another diamond, but could you really grind one? And the amount of force required to break apart the crystaline latice that a diamond forms, not to mention the strain hardening a given piece of diamond would gain in an attempt to grind it...I'm guessing a wizard would have to do it, which brings us the the value of magical mineral refinement....a whole new market niche!

Actually, although I have no personal experience, I read years ago that it's very easy to crush a diamond. I'd assume it has something to do with the molecular structure being far more willing to slide than compress.

Also, I seem to recall reading somewhere that the diamond saws and whatnot use - you guessed it - diamond dust.

[GoC]

I'd go with physics myself, and economists only rate their discipline as a science to create lucrative confidence in their half-assed half-informed guestamations anyway:smalleek:

Speaking as someone who took an AP in Macroeconomics (and got a 5) I must agree.:smallannoyed:


Using a valuable metal as currency also brings other problems. From the Economicon:

Using valuable commodities as a medium of exchange inhibits the growth of the economy. As long as a certain portion of the wealth is locked up in currency, the economy is strangled coming and going: not only is there a completely arbitrary limit on how many goods and services can be exchanged (the gold supply), but there is also a limit on the kinds of industry and artistic expression that can occur (in that if you use gold for anything but currency you're actually shrinking the money supply and producing negative GDP).

I'd like to point out that this isn't the entire picture... It'll do for now though.:smalltongue:

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Originally Posted by mostlyharmful

I'd go with physics myself, and economists only rate their discipline as a science to create lucrative confidence in their half-assed half-informed guestamations anyway


Speaking as someone who took an AP in Macroeconomics (and got a 5) I must agree.:smallannoyed:


I have no idea what an AP is, or how good a 5 is, but i'm studying economics in the university of Copenhagen and guestamation is often done.
Saying that it is half-assed and done only to create lucrative confidence ...:furious:

EDIT:
Not implying that GoC wrote the above about guestamations. Nice word by the way.

[Yvian]

Using a valuable metal as currency also brings other problems. From the Economicon:

Using valuable commodities as a medium of exchange inhibits the growth of the economy. As long as a certain portion of the wealth is locked up in currency, the economy is strangled coming and going: not only is there a completely arbitrary limit on how many goods and services can be exchanged (the gold supply), but there is also a limit on the kinds of industry and artistic expression that can occur (in that if you use gold for anything but currency you're actually shrinking the money supply and producing negative GDP).

But in in DnD where you can magic in new Metal.

You can use wish to bring in more gold, right?

Know, I know what you are saying, there is an exp factor. Well, this is true.

But if you have access to BoVD and human sacrifices it is no longer a factor.

Does life have a momentary value? In DnD the answer is maybe....

[Friv]

Using a valuable metal as currency also brings other problems. From the Economicon:

Using valuable commodities as a medium of exchange inhibits the growth of the economy. As long as a certain portion of the wealth is locked up in currency, the economy is strangled coming and going: not only is there a completely arbitrary limit on how many goods and services can be exchanged (the gold supply), but there is also a limit on the kinds of industry and artistic expression that can occur (in that if you use gold for anything but currency you're actually shrinking the money supply and producing negative GDP).

In D&D, you are constantly bringing new wealth into the society from various ancient ruins and the like; it would almost have to be put into art and the like to prevent inflation.


Slightly related question, who mints the coins anyway? and if you say that gold is inherently valuable and all civilised cultures think it has the exact same value...:furious:

Dweezil, God of Trade, has decided the value of gold. Any who gainsay His Divine Word will find that poverty strikes them where they stand! Their camels shall develop pox, their crops wither in the field, and their coins turn to brass!

Slightly more seriously, about the only way D&D economics make sense if if you assume they are divinely enforced, and that all fluctuations are only of a temporary nature.

[Rumpus]

Easiest thing is to simply keep it abstract, or to assume that it is actually a certain carat weight or gem.

However, it could be a pretty fun plot device. Force an Appraise check by the player to determine the value, and if they get it wrong, a representative of the diety pops up in a huff and says, "Puh-leeze! That diamond was only worth 4,950 GP! Are you trying to rip off your diety?" Players could either cut it as close as possible, assuming they are right, or else offer much more valuable gems so they have a cushion in case their estimates are off.

And hey, if you've got a bunch of Econ geeks who get into figuring out the economics of fantasy universes, it could lead to some interesting storylines. Anybody remember the iron shortage that occurs at the beginning of the original Baldur's Gate? A neat plot device, in-game effects (weapon breakage), and it was a nice introduction before the whole Bhaalspawn thing gets thrown at you. As both an MBA and a logistician, I actually get a real kick out of trying to make the worlds I DM sustainable and somewhat realistic.

[mostlyharmful]

Saying that it is half-assed and done only to create lucrative confidence ...:furious:

Tell it to my economy, my bank manager or my wallet. :smallannoyed: While "half-assed" may be stretching it to hyperbole the basic idea that it's a bunch of informed (so much as that's possible) guesswork is borne out by anyone with an investment portfolio in this country at the moment.

[Ixtli]

In my campaign we arrange such things in this way.
DM assigns a value to every item (that is "fixed": i.e. your 5000gp diamond).
If we want to roleplay a trade, there is a discussion/bartering/shouting/crying about price and the selling price can change slightly according to the performances of the traders (up to +/- 20%).

If you are interested I can suggest the reading of an old book (I think you could find this in Out of Print shops).

GAZ 14 - The republic of Darokin by TSR

This gazetter introduces rules for merchants from carring capacity of vehicles and prices/weight/volumes of every good useful in a fantasy setting.
It also included a map that showed fluctuation of market prices according to the country you were in.
(i.e. from dwarves you could find metal and gems at cheaper prices etc.)
Maybe it is not too realistic but was very playable.
In a couple of words the system defined some fixed % adjustment for prices of some products for every country.
When you arrive in a town the true starting price was setted by a die roll (that should take count of fluctuations).
Same happened for the number of available merchants and quantity of products that could be sold/bought.
Then you started to barter to adjust a little bit more the price.

In Ex.
the price for metal weapons in the dwarven kingdom is 80% of manual price.
You roll a -10% adjustment for this period (valid for October, year of the Hammer 1324).
There are 3 merchants available.
You start bartering with every one of them to obtain those results.
merchant 1: -5% price adjustment
merchant 2: +5% price adjustment
merchant 3: -10% price adjustment

After that you can decide to buy/sell what you want.
You also need a good calculator or a nice excell file
I hope I have not been too boring ;)

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Tell it to my economy, my bank manager or my wallet. :smallannoyed: Ah yes, I forgot that economists dictate the economy in the same way that meteologists are to blame when it rains :smallsmile:

[Blanks]

In D&D, you are constantly bringing new wealth into the society from various ancient ruins and the like; it would almost have to be put into art and the like to prevent inflation.
Its not physics, so i'm not killing catgirls :smallbiggrin:

The economist Milton Friedman argued for a steady increase in the monetary base of around 3%/year. That is to have the amount of money follow the expansion of the population and the production.

You could always just argue that the extra money from ruins are "swallowed" by extra population somewhere else.

Or, even better, argue that when all the gold was left in those ruins, the economy ran into deflation - and your'e just setting it straight now by getting it back :smallcool:

[Aquillion]

Also, it specifies diamond dust. How exactly would you go about powdering the hardest substance known to man? You can't exactly pop it into a pestle and grind it with a morter. You can cut a diamond with another diamond, but could you really grind one? And the amount of force required to break apart the crystaline latice that a diamond forms, not to mention the strain hardening a given piece of diamond would gain in an attempt to grind it...I'm guessing a wizard would have to do it, which brings us the the value of magical mineral refinement....a whole new market niche!Diamonds are actually easier to break than most people think; they are very hard, yes, but also quite brittle. You can break one with a perfectly mundane hammer.

Look at it like this: Imagine hitting a softball very hard at a glass window. Even though glass is far, far harder than your softball, the window will break and the softball won't, because glass is much more brittle. You can't scratch diamonds with most other natural materials, no, but breaking them is a matter of force, not just a matter of hardness -- and when two objects collide at high force, their relative brittleness can matter more than their hardness.

(Likewise, if you freeze something like a softball using dry ice or liquid nitrogen, it becomes easy to shatter, even though it has also become much much harder.)

Diamond isn't invulnerable, just harder than other natural elements. And it's quite possible to shatter something using a less-hard substance.

Nothing can survive infinite force... so beyond a certain point, you have to be absorb enough to avoid it safely. If you lightly poke a pillow, it'll give when your diamond won't... but if you hit both using a hammer, the diamond will be destroyed, while the pillow will barely be affected. Likewise, most forms of cast iron are actually harder than steel... but it's so brittle that it's less useful for weapons. You don't want your sword to bend, but you don't want it to shatter, either.

(This is also why diamond swords aren't generally a good idea; they'd shatter when you hit something with them. You can make a decent cutting edge by using diamonds to line a less brittle metal at angles where they're not likely to have to absorb much force, as people sometimes do with saws -- mainly a good idea because diamond will be very good at holding an edge -- but you can't make a usable weapon out of diamond alone. And it'd be totally useless for armor... you don't want armor to be that brittle. It'd be like wearing armor made out of glass. It might survive a few more hits than glass would, but eventually it'll shatter.)

Or if that was tl;dr: This (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shatter.htm). Diamonds are quite brittle, and are also crystals.