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RagnaroksChosen
2008-06-04, 12:46 AM
Late night ponder-y?

Even though we muse about RAW, How many of you Run your games 100% by the rules? I mean I know when I Gm I add homebrew stuff. Weather it be rules or what not. Just wondering how many of you do the same or do you all run your games to Raw?

Solo
2008-06-04, 12:47 AM
I try to, as long as RAW doesn't give stupid answers, like how drowning a dying person brings them back up to 0 hp.

RagnaroksChosen
2008-06-04, 12:49 AM
ya thats pretty dumb...

Eldariel
2008-06-04, 12:54 AM
No point in going purely by RAW when you have the option to fix the dumbest issues in it, but I try to keep homebrew to the level where the players don't have a difficulty remembering all the homebrew rules we're using. Mostly just killing exceedingly dumb stuff like Diplomacy, the aforementioned Drowning Heals, Tower Shield blocking LoE (thus trivializing Anti-Magic Fields) and so on. And then cramming CRs to the trashcan, applying a healthy dose of bannage and limitations where none existed before and we're off.

Of course, it depends on the game. In the future, if I ever find/make the real 3.X I want to play, I'll run games squarely by those rules.

Emperor Tippy
2008-06-04, 12:54 AM
I try to, as long as RAW doesn't give stupid answers, like how drowning a dying person brings them back up to 0 hp.
Or dead people being able to get up and walk around with no problem.

CarpeGuitarrem
2008-06-04, 01:03 AM
Or dead people being able to get up and walk around with no problem.

Zombies, much?

Emperor Tippy
2008-06-04, 01:09 AM
Zombies, much?

No. Dead is an undefined condition, Dying (when you are unconcious) is stated to apply from -1 to -9 HP.

So if you have -10 or fewer HP you can, RAW, get up and do whatever you want.

rockdeworld
2008-06-04, 02:00 AM
That's...

I guess they couldn't decide where to draw the line between "your character can no longer move" and "burn your character sheet" and so wrote nothing.

But I'm in agreement with the others - common sense rules apply.

Tough_Tonka
2008-06-04, 02:04 AM
No. Dead is an undefined condition, Dying (when you are unconcious) is stated to apply from -1 to -9 HP.

So if you have -10 or fewer HP you can, RAW, get up and do whatever you want.

You sir have just beaten every rules lawyer before you

tyckspoon
2008-06-04, 02:06 AM
You sir have just beaten every rules lawyer before you

I prefer the argument that says your nonlethal damage total (zero) is greater than your current HP (negative something), therefor regardless of what the game says or does not say about being dead you are unconscious.

Nebo_
2008-06-04, 02:30 AM
You sir have just beaten every rules lawyer before you

You say that as if he just thought of it...

I don't play by RAW if I think the game would work better if I changed the rule.

Blanks
2008-06-04, 04:02 AM
Or dead people being able to get up and walk around with no problem.
So they didn't define "dead" so it has no effect. Well then, forget about walking about, because that isn't defined either :smallyuk:

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-06-04, 08:45 AM
So they didn't define "dead" so it has no effect. Well then, forget about walking about, because that isn't defined either :smallyuk:

Yes it is. That's what you have a base speed and a move action for.

Seriously, the point is that daze explicitly removes actions, death does not.

However, unless you have Diehard (and maybe even then) your non-lethal damage does exceed your HP, as was mentioned earlier, rendering you unconscious.

bosssmiley
2008-06-04, 09:00 AM
Use the RAW? Why would I want to do a crazy thing like that? It'd be like knowingly driving a Ford Pinto (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcNeorjXMrE) cobbled together by drunken monkeys; a grossly foolish, irresponsible act that could only possibly end very badly.

I have more respect for my players (and for my own sanity) than to play D&D strictly by the RAW. :smallannoyed:

SoD
2008-06-04, 09:07 AM
Apply the rules where/ever you can, and add liberal amounts of common sense (if you feel like it: "common sense?! This is DnD!"). Otherwise the whole thing just turns into a farce.

AKA_Bait
2008-06-04, 09:12 AM
Must agree with most here. I use RAW when it doesn't make sense for the general, governing mechanics of the game. When it comes to individual spells, skills, classes, monsters etc. banning things, using variants, and homebrewing things is the norm. I always let my players know what changes I'm making (except in the case of homebrew monsters, where they might find out IC).

Person_Man
2008-06-04, 09:26 AM
I tend to run "consensus reality" games. We try to stick to RAW, but only to the extent that everyone around the table agrees upon it. We avoid or generally don't use overpowered rules (Polymorph, Divine Metamagic, etc), but again its just by consensus, not an explicit ban against them. If there's an argument, then whoever the DM is rules on it, and then we talk about it after the game over beer.

Blanks
2008-06-04, 11:14 AM
Yes it is. That's what you have a base speed and a move action for.

Seriously, the point is that daze explicitly removes actions, death does not.

The definitions are (PHB 3.5)


dead:
A character dies when his or her hit points drop to –10 or lower. A character also dies when his or her Constitution drops to 0, and certain spells or effects (such as failing a Fortitude save against massive damage) can also kill a character outright. Death causes the character’s soul to leave the body and journey to an Outer Plane. Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing, but they can be restored to life via magic. A dead body decays normally unless magically preserved, but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition
at the time of death (depending on the spell or device).


base land speed:
The speed a character can move while unarmored. Base land speed is derived from character race.

Nothing about this strange concept of "walking". But when "dead" your soul leaves your body and journey to the outer planes.

Lets take move in order to see if that helps us:


move action:
An action that is the equivalent of the character moving his speed. Move actions include standing up from prone, drawing or sheathing a weapon, opening a door, loading a light crossbow, and moving your speed. In a typical round, a character can take a move action and a standard action, or he can take a second move action in place of his standard action.

Nope, nothing about walking. So either:
1) You can't walk
2) Walking is more ill-defined than death.

Perhaps the bumbling idiots at WotC expected people to be able to speak english and understand the concept of "dead"...




Seriously, the point is that saying that there is a hole in the rules regarding death is stupid, because then there are a thousand holes. I haven't checked, but I would guess they haven't defined what "pants", "fall" or "the" means, but come on, nobody would call that holes in the rules.
I'm all for bashing on WotC, but lets give them a chance - they wrote a rules book, not a dictionary...

EDIT:
messed up lines from copy/pasting

Riva
2008-06-04, 11:31 AM
Blanks, for the love of largely imaginary friends, its a conversational point that is brought up. Normally to make... your point. Its a rule book, rather limited, and will thus have many holes. By RAW, RAW makes no sense.

Capiche?

Also, I prefer that my characters do not walk. They do that creepy bent-backwards-walk-with-four limbs, like in the Ring.

Crazy_Uncle_Doug
2008-06-04, 11:34 AM
I and those with me tend to stick with the RAW. It makes it a bit easier when others join in our game. There's less to explain to the vets, and rookies won't have to worry about oddities if they go to a different game. Plus, it's easier to make a ruling based on the RAW, in general.

InaVegt
2008-06-04, 11:53 AM
No. Dead is an undefined condition, Dying (when you are unconcious) is stated to apply from -1 to -9 HP.

So if you have -10 or fewer HP you can, RAW, get up and do whatever you want.

at -10 or fewer HP you have more nonlethal damage than HP, this makes you unconscious.

An unconscious character is helpless.

A helpless character is treated as having 0 dex.

A character with 0 dex can't move.

QED

Serpentine
2008-06-04, 12:00 PM
I don't so much not play RAW, as stretch the RAW to extremes when necessary. Whatever works at the time. Things like races and classes - races especially - can be relatively heavily tweaked, but that's always done at the start, in close conversation with the player. In-play, RAW are the norm, unless it's too much effort or two disruptive to look it up at that point or I can think of a better way to handle a particular situation, in which case I make it up as I go (with discussion with the group).

valadil
2008-06-04, 12:01 PM
I have two groups. One of them plays the rules as written, but doesn't abusive with the rules. Even silly rules like diplomacy checks tend to work well enough for non optimized diplomacy skills.

The other groups tends to remove things that are silly or broken, but rarely tries to fix them. Celerity wouldn't go over well with that group.

Blanks
2008-06-04, 12:57 PM
Blanks, for the love of largely imaginary friends, its a conversational point that is brought up. Normally to make... your point. Its a rule book, rather limited, and will thus have many holes. By RAW, RAW makes no sense.
I know, but using it as "the final proof that RAW is flawed" is wrong on so many levels. What it really shows is that nomatter how foolproof you make the rules, someone will make a better fool...
*That comment was specificly NOT aimed at anyone on this board, for the exact reason pointed out by Riva.*



Also, I prefer that my characters do not walk. They do that creepy bent-backwards-walk-with-four limbs, like in the Ring.Cool, mine always swim through the air, normally while wearing a small bag of holding as a hat :smalltongue:
(damn, couldn't top yours)

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-06-04, 02:29 PM
The definitions are (PHB 3.5)





Nothing about this strange concept of "walking". But when "dead" your soul leaves your body and journey to the outer planes.

Lets take move in order to see if that helps us:



Nope, nothing about walking. So either:
1) You can't walk
2) Walking is more ill-defined than death.

Perhaps the bumbling idiots at WotC expected people to be able to speak english and understand the concept of "dead"...




Seriously, the point is that saying that there is a hole in the rules regarding death is stupid, because then there are a thousand holes. I haven't checked, but I would guess they haven't defined what "pants", "fall" or "the" means, but come on, nobody would call that holes in the rules.
I'm all for bashing on WotC, but lets give them a chance - they wrote a rules book, not a dictionary...

EDIT:
messed up lines from copy/pasting

You do realize that I was just commenting on someone else saying that, and explaining why they might believe that, and then I pointed out how that is not true?

Blanks
2008-06-04, 03:11 PM
You do realize that I was just commenting on someone else saying that, and explaining why they might believe that, and then I pointed out how that is not true?
But arguing that you are unconscious when you are dead is bogus, if I may be so frank!
You are not "move impeded", "unconscious", "having a massive hangover" or any other term it might be described by - you are DEAD, a "status" that everyone should know what means. Just like everyone KNOWS what "to walk" means.

My point was that it is folly to argue against the conclusion, when it is the premise that is faulty.

PnP Fan
2008-06-04, 03:12 PM
I prefer to play as close to RAW as sanely possible. I like to focus my time on story and setting up adventures, rather than accounting for the random things that houserules tend to insert into a game.

On the other hand, most of the folks I play with like to insert all kinds of houserules, mostly things that drive the power level up on the PC side (with the equal and opposite reaction on the villians' side, so I really don't get the point. . . ). So we wind up compromising.

Irreverent Fool
2008-06-04, 03:48 PM
The "dead is not a defined condition and therefore has no mechanical effect" argument as well as the arguments that a creature that needs to sleep need only sleep once in its entire life exist specifically to point out what ridiculous rules-lawyering leads to. They should not be taken any more seriously than the 'Locate City Bomb'.

Edit: I seem to have forgotten my posts in defense of the 'Locate City Bomb'. Please ignore the man behind the motley.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-06-04, 04:00 PM
But arguing that you are unconscious when you are dead is bogus, if I may be so frank!
You are not "move impeded", "unconscious", "having a massive hangover" or any other term it might be described by - you are DEAD, a "status" that everyone should know what means. Just like everyone KNOWS what "to walk" means.

My point was that it is folly to argue against the conclusion, when it is the premise that is faulty.

Except that walking is defined, it's when you move half of your base move speed. And unconscious is defined too, if your HP (-X) is less then your non-lethal damage (0) then you are unconscious. Those are the rules. Do you stop having two arms when you are dead? No. Do you stop being unconscious by the rules when you are dead? No.

Flickerdart
2008-06-04, 04:48 PM
I keep seeing people saying Diplomacy is broken. I can understand Batmen wizards. That was a playtesting flaw. Polymorph? It's a spell that lets you transform into anything. Reasonable.

But Diplomacy? A single skill? Someone explain this to me.

Oh, also, what does RAW stand for?

FlyMolo
2008-06-04, 04:53 PM
Use the RAW? Why would I want to do a crazy thing like that? It'd be like knowingly driving a Ford Pinto (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcNeorjXMrE) cobbled together by drunken monkeys; a grossly foolish, irresponsible act that could only possibly end very badly.


Wait, you would drive any ford pinto not cobbled together by drunken monkeys? You sir, have a death wish.

Blanks
2008-06-04, 05:05 PM
Except that walking is defined, it's when you move half of your base move speed. And unconscious is defined too, if your HP (-X) is less then your non-lethal damage (0) then you are unconscious. Those are the rules. Do you stop having two arms when you are dead? No. Do you stop being unconscious by the rules when you are dead? No. Do you start decomposing when you are dead? By the RAW yes, but they didn't write it explictly. Is dead a special kind of unconscious? No, even though they did not write it explicitly it is assumed to be taken for granted.

Is it stated in the RAW that walking is a movement form where you move your legs one at a time to achieve a forward momentum (or some such nonsense...)? No, that would be retarded. It is not stated explicitly, but thats the way it is.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-06-04, 05:11 PM
I keep seeing people saying Diplomacy is broken. I can understand Batmen wizards. That was a playtesting flaw. Polymorph? It's a spell that lets you transform into anything. Reasonable.

But Diplomacy? A single skill? Someone explain this to me.

Oh, also, what does RAW stand for?

Diplomacy is a skill check. Skill checks are easy to boost. Diplomacy allows you to end fights (IE win encounters) by hitting a flat DC. That means that the result to turn an angry orc into a friend is exactly the same as to turn an angry CR 28 Dragon into a friend.

A Half Elf Marshal 1/Binder 1/Bard 1 can bind Naberius and have a bonus to diplomacy of +27 without even putting in much work. So now he can make the DC to turn a hostile foe (IE the boy who's mother he just stabbed to death right in front of him) into indifferent on a 1. And if he rolls a 10, then that boy is now friendly to him.

A level 10 character that has bothered to focus on Diplomacy can actually take hostile foes and make them his fanatic followers in a single round.

That's why Diplomacy is broken.

Flickerdart
2008-06-04, 05:13 PM
Diplomacy is a skill check. Skill checks are easy to boost. Diplomacy allows you to end fights (IE win encounters) by hitting a flat DC. That means that the result to turn an angry orc into a friend is exactly the same as to turn an angry CR 28 Dragon into a friend.

A Half Elf Marshal 1/Binder 1/Bard 1 can bind Naberius and have a bonus to diplomacy of +27 without even putting in much work. So now he can make the DC to turn a hostile foe (IE the boy who's mother he just stabbed to death right in front of him) into indifferent on a 1. And if he rolls a 10, then that boy is now friendly to him.

A level 10 character that has bothered to focus on Diplomacy can actually take hostile foes and make them his fanatic followers in a single round.

That's why Diplomacy is broken.
Wow. That's insane.

Blanks
2008-06-04, 05:16 PM
I keep seeing people saying Diplomacy is broken. I can understand Batmen wizards. That was a playtesting flaw. Polymorph? It's a spell that lets you transform into anything. Reasonable.

But Diplomacy? A single skill? Someone explain this to me.

Oh, also, what does RAW stand for?

RAW = Rules As Written. Contrasted with Rules As Intended.

Diplomacy is broken because it is too easy to get people to help you/like you. And it can be done in 6 seconds. The DCs are static and too low.
(This isn't my opinion but the general consensus on the forum)

EDIT:
Thoroughly Ninjaed by Vecna... Ce la vie...

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-06-04, 05:18 PM
Do you start decomposing when you are dead? By the RAW yes, but they didn't write it explictly. Is dead a special kind of unconscious? No, even though they did not write it explicitly it is assumed to be taken for granted.

Is it stated in the RAW that walking is a movement form where you move your legs one at a time to achieve a forward momentum (or some such nonsense...)? No, that would be retarded. It is not stated explicitly, but thats the way it is.

What the hell is your problem, they have a rule for walking, and they have a rule for dead, and they have a rule for unconscious.

I never said dead is a special kind of unconscious, I am just pointing out that if you are dead, you are also unconscious. Just as if you are unconscious you are by definition helpless.

It's a tiered system, you can be helpless without being unconscious. But if you are unconscious you are by definition helpless. You can be unconscious without being dead, but if you are dead, you are by definition unconscious (and also helpless).

Blanks
2008-06-04, 05:24 PM
What the hell is your problem, they have a rule for walking, and they have a rule for dead, and they have a rule for unconscious.

I never said dead is a special kind of unconscious, I am just pointing out that if you are dead, you are also unconscious. Just as if you are unconscious you are by definition helpless.

It's a tiered system, you can be helpless without being unconscious. But if you are unconscious you are by definition helpless. You can be unconscious without being dead, but if you are dead, you are by definition unconscious (and also helpless).

The problem is, that people say that you can walk around when you are dead because the rules doesn't define dead.
The wrong counter to this is not saying that you are also affected by a lower tiered status which prevents it, because it acknowledges that dead isn't defined.

The right counter is saying that dead IS defined clearly enough. Just like walking. There is no description of walking in the PHB, but I don't see people complaining about that. Because it is just as obvious as dead should be to people.

The dead status also does a lot more than the unconscious status:
You cease breathing, starts rotting, loses body heat and so on. They never say it in the PHB, but I don't think that means that dead bodies are endless heat sources...

Flickerdart
2008-06-04, 05:27 PM
Oh, and don't forget that breathing is not defined anywhere, and all characters drop dead upon creation. Since being dead doesn't stop you from moving or doing stuff, it all evens out.

NecroRebel
2008-06-04, 06:52 PM
It's a tiered system, you can be helpless without being unconscious. But if you are unconscious you are by definition helpless. You can be unconscious without being dead, but if you are dead, you are by definition unconscious (and also helpless).

Amusingly enough, this is only technically true by strict RAW if you die by hit point damage or a death effect. Dying by constitution drain doesn't technically affect your hit points (and amusingly enough might actually increase them; 0 in any stat does not have a listed stat modifier, so it might be 0 or positive), so your hit points can still exceed your nonlethal damage total, so the "you're unconscious because your nonlethal damage exceeds your hit points" doesn't work, so there is nothing, RAW, that stops you from acting.

Is it stupid? Absolutely. Is it against all common sense? Definately. Is it positively insane? You bet it is! But "dead" is a defined game condition that does not have any affect, itself, on one's hit points or ability to act. It also does not, in itself, make you unconscious by definition.

Read the game definition of "dead" again, if you will, and you will see absolutely no mention of unconsciousness.

Helgraf
2008-06-04, 09:43 PM
Amusingly enough, this is only technically true by strict RAW if you die by hit point damage or a death effect. Dying by constitution drain doesn't technically affect your hit points (and amusingly enough might actually increase them; 0 in any stat does not have a listed stat modifier, so it might be 0 or positive), so your hit points can still exceed your nonlethal damage total, so the "you're unconscious because your nonlethal damage exceeds your hit points" doesn't work, so there is nothing, RAW, that stops you from acting.

Wrong. 0 is a -5 stat penalty. - (IE no stat at all) provides no modifier, which has already been ruled as a +0 if _somehow_ a situation where it must be used comes up.



Is it stupid? Absolutely. Is it against all common sense? Definately. Is it positively insane? You bet it is! But "dead" is a defined game condition that does not have any affect, itself, on one's hit points or ability to act. It also does not, in itself, make you unconscious by definition.

Read the game definition of "dead" again, if you will, and you will see absolutely no mention of unconsciousness.

Eldariel
2008-06-04, 10:13 PM
A Half Elf Marshal 1/Binder 1/Bard 1 can bind Naberius and have a bonus to diplomacy of +27 without even putting in much work. So now he can make the DC to turn a hostile foe (IE the boy who's mother he just stabbed to death right in front of him) into indifferent on a 1. And if he rolls a 10, then that boy is now friendly to him.

Marshal 1/Binder 1 can reach sufficient bonuses to succeed a rushed Diplomacy-check to Friendly on 1 at level 2. There was a challenge on this particular point. It requires flaws and traits, but it can be done.

Blanks
2008-06-05, 05:39 AM
Oh, and don't forget that breathing is not defined anywhere, and all characters drop dead upon creation. Since being dead doesn't stop you from moving or doing stuff, it all evens out.

LOL, the list keep expanding :)

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-06-05, 07:42 AM
The problem is, that people say that you can walk around when you are dead because the rules doesn't define dead.
The wrong counter to this is not saying that you are also affected by a lower tiered status which prevents it, because it acknowledges that dead isn't defined.

The right counter is saying that dead IS defined clearly enough. Just like walking. There is no description of walking in the PHB, but I don't see people complaining about that. Because it is just as obvious as dead should be to people.

The dead status also does a lot more than the unconscious status:
You cease breathing, starts rotting, loses body heat and so on. They never say it in the PHB, but I don't think that means that dead bodies are endless heat sources...

And this is precisely my point. Dead is a defined condition that has one effect, you decay normally. That's it. Dead does not do any of those things you list it as doing, because it doesn't say it does.

Similarly, walking is defined. It is moving half your base speed. That's walking. It doesn't involve putting one foot in front of the other, it doesn't involve bending your knees, you don't even have knees, it is one thing and one thing only, moving half your base speed.


Oh, and don't forget that breathing is not defined anywhere, and all characters drop dead upon creation. Since being dead doesn't stop you from moving or doing stuff, it all evens out.

Nor does it say anywhere that characters actually need to breathe, so they don't drop dead.


Amusingly enough, this is only technically true by strict RAW if you die by hit point damage or a death effect. Dying by constitution drain doesn't technically affect your hit points (and amusingly enough might actually increase them; 0 in any stat does not have a listed stat modifier, so it might be 0 or positive), so your hit points can still exceed your nonlethal damage total, so the "you're unconscious because your nonlethal damage exceeds your hit points" doesn't work, so there is nothing, RAW, that stops you from acting.

Except for the part where if you die by some other means you are stated to be treated as having -10HP.


Marshal 1/Binder 1 can reach sufficient bonuses to succeed a rushed Diplomacy-check to Friendly on 1 at level 2. There was a challenge on this particular point. It requires flaws and traits, but it can be done.

I am well aware of that. I was just presenting a simple example, not including flaws, or working too hard, just to show that even a basic attempt breaks the game.

Blanks
2008-06-05, 08:12 AM
And this is precisely my point. Dead is a defined condition that has one effect, you decay normally. That's it. Dead does not do any of those things you list it as doing, because it doesn't say it does.

There are 2 ways to look at it, either the only thing you can use to understand the rules are the books themselves (case 1) or you are expected to know what some things mean before even opening the books (case2).

You are arguing case 1 and i'm arguing case 2, agree?
(I know you said you are playing devils advocate here, but you are arguing case 1 now)

The problem with case 1 is, that if you disallow the normal definition of dead, then you also have to disallow all other words not defined in the books themselves. As you pointed out, that means people have no knees and so on. This clearly causes the game to break down, meaning that the correct way to interpret the rules must be case 2.





People think its funny to say "they forgot to define dead", but then forgetting to think about all the other terms they didn't define.