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Yakk
2008-06-04, 10:52 AM
We where wanting to poke at the mechanics, and I was thinking of Playing in a game GMed by someone else, so we completely skipped the plot and just did the first two encounters.

There where 3 of us. I ran it. Someone who has maybe played 1 game of 3e played a Fighter, and someone who was thinking of GMing this adventure for 4 friends played a Rogue.

They where both level 5.

As a quick approximation of what a level 5 character "should" have magic-item wise:

I gave the Fighter a level 5 weapon (Lifedrinker Axe -- when you kill something, gain 5 temporary HP) and level 2 Dwarven Plate (daily: gain HP like you spent a healing surge. I think minor.), and both level 1 cloaks (+1 to reflex/fort/will saves).

The Rogue got a Duelists Dagger (+1d6 crit damage, +1d8 if you have CA. Minor Daily: gain combat advantage) and Bloodsomething armor (minor [healing surge]: when bloodied, gain resist 10 all damage until the end of your next turn.)

The Fighter was a Dragonborn, and the Rogue was Human.

This makes them a 400 XP-equiv group. A party of 5 level 1s is 500 XP-equiv -- so, by the balance mechanics, they should be slightly weaker than a group of level 1s.

In retrospect, making them level 6 (250 each, so 500 total) might have been a good idea. :)

Encounter Spoilers (first two in the first module)
They beat the first encounter (minion swarm, a few backup) relatively easily. The minions and slinger just couldn't hit the guys, and the Fighter had an area attack that really hurt. (475 XP-Equiv)

The second encounter was a level 2 encounter -- 675ish XP-equiv -- and had beefier enemies. The Mob Attack ability, together with shift/move/charge tactics, meant that the mobs could have up to +6 to hit from situational benefits -- more than enough to start reliably hitting the PCs.

The artillery NPC could also relatively reliably hit the Tank, as it targetted reflex defense.

The Rogue lacked both shifting and sliding powers, and the Dragonshields are real buggers to flank. If you shift near them, they shift for free, and they are Kobolds -- so they are ridiculously shifty.

If the Kobold wasn't marked, they could shift to hell and back.

I also committed the sin of rolling 3 or 4 natural 20s, which really hurt.

However, once the battle started going badly for them, the PCs started letting loose with daily powers. And that quickly turned the tide of battle.

Once 2 Kobolds where down, the ability to constantly flank and constantly get mob attack bonuses became difficult, incoming damage fell, and the Rogue no longer had to risk 3 OA every time he wanted to move into position.
Spoilers Over.

Lessons learned:
You want to print out your abilities, and precalculate your modifiers. This makes things much faster.

Do the same for monsters.

Have many coloured beads and different kinds of change around for marking and quarry and the like.

Be willing to write on the character sheets of both PCs and monsters -- ie, photocopy the stats. This helps for per-encounter and the like.

Rogues MUST shift. Unlike other strikers, they have to move into specific spots. Either that, or get the ability to move and ignore/soak OAs. A Rogue in position destroys opponents -- a Rogue out of position is pretty gimpy, damage-wise.

The XP-EQuiv math works decently. I suspect that the encounters would have been better at level 6 each instead of 5. Between that, and short-changing them on their equipment (a real party of level 5 characters would have gotten:
2 3 4 5 @ L 1
3 4 5 6 @ L 2
4 5 6 7 @ L 3
5 6 7 8 @ L 4
magic items, + treasure to buy/make magic items via rituals (capped at party level. That's 16 items + treasure, 3.2 items per character. 6 items level 6+, so they should have about one level 6+ item each, two level 2 to 5 items, plus items that they purchase/make using cash... On the other hand, the items they got where good items for their classes. They should also expect to have some potions...)

Yakk
2008-06-04, 03:16 PM
Play-wise, the players seemed to have a blast. The Rogue complained a bit about my lucky rolls. :)

Dragonshields are a nasty creature for Rogues to fight -- shifting to get into flanking positions doesn't work, because the Dragonshields can shift in response and move out of alignment.

The Surprise setup in the encounter was strange. They enemy ended up not doing much other than deploying in the Surprise round...

Some of the utility powers seem far worse than others. Tumble, for example, almost seems like a must-have.

The fact that every fighter needs Strength, Con and Wisdom, while some also need Dex, wasn't made clear enough in the quick character advice. At low levels, the non-dex based fighters sure seemed a better option than the dex-based fighters.

There also seems to be limited support for both light-blade and two-weapon fighters.

Rogues seem to be a different kind of striker than Rangers (or seemingly Warlocks). Both Rangers and Warlocks are capable of 'disengaging', then running off and killing an artillery or leader unit that is holding back behind the soldiers and brutes.

Rogues, on the other hand, seem to work best when Flanking with a Defender. That means that "solo kill" of units behind-the-lines ... doesn't work as well.

One of the deadliest tactics I could find was the "shift 1 away, use move action to gain range, then charge back". As non-basic attacks where rare, this gives an additional +1 to hit (which is key when hitting high-AC PCs), and lets the Kobold change it's position as well. Such a trick might work less well on multiple PCs.

The ability for a swarm of bad guys to gang up on a single hero is also pretty scary. We had a level 5 defender -- and he could get seriously pummeled in a single round if 4+ level 1/2 melee badguys managed to surround him.

"Lines of Battle" seem easy to penetrate, until a Defender manages to use their marking abilities to force attacks on them and reduce enemy mobility. Fighters ability to end move actions when they hit an opponent is good -- but barring having 2+ fighters, forming a barrier that the enemy cannot just "run around" is tricky.

With charge mechanics being what it is, and bad guys who have shift special abilities, 'disengaging' from a fight requires that you move 13+ squares away from the bad guys that aren't locked down by your Defenders. Cheap diagonal movement means that just standing on the far side of your friends doesn't really hinder folks who want to chase you down.

On the other hand, the Wyrmpriest was generally not attacked until the swarms of melee characters where delt with. Maybe with more PCs, monsters will have the same issue "disengaging isn't safe!"

I'd really like to try the fights again with a controller or a control-leaning striker/leader. Just creating difficult terrain would massively change the topology of the battle.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-04, 03:44 PM
Interesting. I have some things to point out, though:


A) Nah, a fighter doesn't need Wis or Con. Trick is, you HAVE to adjust scores to the weapon you pick. It's incredibly important. A Heavy Blade fighter can do perfectly well with only Dex and Str, but an axe fighter is really ****ed up if he doesn't have high Con.

B) The problem with rogues is not the flanking. It's the fact that you HAVE to get combat advantage to be useful, and that flanking is the easiest way to do it. Once you have Easy setup, though, the enemy is in for a world of pain.

C) It's no surprise the kobolds were hard. They're controller fodder. Without one, they're a pain in the neck.

D) Yes, charges are fearsome. Trick is, Kobolds die if you so much as sneeze on them. Through experience, I've learnt it really pays off to get things like Blade Opportunist, because solid hits are a must when you're dealing with so much fodder.

Yakk
2008-06-04, 04:40 PM
Interesting. I have some things to point out, though:


A) Nah, a fighter doesn't need Wis or Con. Trick is, you HAVE to adjust scores to the weapon you pick. It's incredibly important. A Heavy Blade fighter can do perfectly well with only Dex and Str, but an axe fighter is really ****ed up if he doesn't have high Con.

Wis is +to AOs for Fighters. As you noted below, that's important: a fighter cannot stop a Kobbie from running right by them if they can't hit the damn thing as it runs by.

Con gives you HP. And that which gives you HP is good! (especially at low levels).


B) The problem with rogues is not the flanking. It's the fact that you HAVE to get combat advantage to be useful, and that flanking is the easiest way to do it. Once you have Easy setup, though, the enemy is in for a world of pain.

*nod* -- Flanking is easy. As would teaming up with someone else -- they use an ability that grants Combat Advantage, then you clean up.

However -- Rogues aren't that good at chain-generating their own Combat Advantage. They can't flank a creature by themselves, they have abilities that daze targets but they are per-encounter (and first require a non-CA attack...), etc.

Hence the fact that Rogues are dependent on someone else setting up the target, then the Rogue dishes out pain.


C) It's no surprise the kobolds were hard. They're controller fodder. Without one, they're a pain in the neck.

Shifty buggers.


D) Yes, charges are fearsome. Trick is, Kobolds die if you so much as sneeze on them. Through experience, I've learnt it really pays off to get things like Blade Opportunist, because solid hits are a must when you're dealing with so much fodder.

Dragonshields have 36 HP. A 2d10+5 damage attack does 16 damage per hit on average -- so it takes 3 hits to take one out. At a 60% hit rate, that's 5 per-encounter powers burned per dead Dragonshield (non-reliable).

Two level 5 characters had 4 per-encounter powers -- by the end of the 2nd round, the group was out of per-encounter damage powers, and if they where lucky a single Dragonshield was dead.

That left 2 DS, 1 Skirmisher, and 1 Artilery, pecking away at them. (in reality, some of their encounter powers where AOE abilities -- so it was round 3, and one was dead and another half-dead).

By round 3 or 4, the party hit 13 HP each -- that's a level 5 Fighter and a level 5 Rogue. Daily powers where pulled out to get them out of the HP debt (+30ish on the Fighter, +10ish on the Rogue), and then another Dragonshield died.

With 1 DS and 1 Skirmisher and 1 Artillery, the incoming damage calmed down. The Fighter could mark 1 or 2 opponents each round, preventing them from going after the Rogue, and then the combo could melt the creatures quickly. Meanwhile, the mob attack bonus faded, and attacks went from hitting 50%+ of the time down to hitting 25% of the time...

I did play each opponent optimally. The DS picked the nearest target (the rogue) and chain-charged it. The Skirmisher jumped around behind and added damage. The leader moved up, blasted the low-reflex dude in plate armor, and then used the minor action to grant temporary HP and have the Kobolds reposition out of retaliation range in a defensive line (no shifting after a charge!).

The 3 or 4 natural 20s I rolled also hurt.

Note that I was being mean, and telling them that they won't be allowed a long rest until they dug out the nest of Kobolds -- and that the nest itself was probably going to be more dangerous than a small ambush on the road.

Encounter #2 ended up requiring daily powers to win reliably, in both run-throughs -- or maybe that was just dice-luck. We where 400 XP-equiv vs a 600+ XP-equiv encounter, however.

I can't help but wonder if the controller makes that much difference, or if maybe the DM's aren't being mean and seriously ganging up on a single player to kill that target dead ASAP...

Then again, maybe the offensive power of 5 level 1s is that much larger than the offensive power of two level 5s!

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-04, 06:08 PM
Then again, maybe the offensive power of 5 level 1s is that much larger than the offensive power of two level 5s!

Well...

5/2=2.5

Theoretically, 2.5 times greater. YMMV.

Also, CON DOESN'T give you HP. It only gives you at first level. Afterwards, it's totally irrelevant.

Saph
2008-06-04, 07:15 PM
Funny coincidence. I just played the first two encounters tonight, too. :)

I was playing my Ranger, so had a slightly different experience from you. Main things I noticed:

1) The Kobold shifty ability is quite powerful. The DM was reading the ability as the kobold gets to shift after the PC has declared the end of their move, which I have a feeling is wrong (it made them literally impossible to hit with melee attacks, that can't be right).

2) Surprise rounds are quite brutal, especially if the monsters team up on one guy.

3) 4e is much more unforgiving towards tactically unskilled players who don't understand the concepts of focusing fire and putting the monsters on the back foot. We were close to losing the second encounter because 2 out of 4 PCs were spreading their attacks around rather than nailing one until he dropped. (Unfortunately, we didn't get to finish, because the same two PCs had spent so long talking to the NPCs in town. Honestly, it's outrageous the way people keep roleplaying instead of getting with the program and killing stuff. :P)

4) Of the ranger at-wills, Twin Strike is by far the best. Getting two shots means you can almost always hit and do your Hunter's Quarry damage, and it lets you cut through minions efficiently. (Strikers and controllers seem more exciting to play than defenders and leaders, but that could just be playstyle.)

5) The elf ability to shift into difficult terrain is surprisingly useful (at least, if the DM is using a map that includes it). I was using it to shift into woodland, getting cover and stopping the kobolds from shifting after me. Tactically fun. BTW, Yakk, you can reliably avoid AoO's with a bow ranger. :P I'd taken the TWF style and Quickdraw so that I could switch, though.

- Saph

JaxGaret
2008-06-04, 07:39 PM
1) The Kobold shifty ability is quite powerful. The DM was reading the ability as the kobold gets to shift after the PC has declared the end of their move, which I have a feeling is wrong (it made them literally impossible to hit with melee attacks, that can't be right).

Kobold Dragonshields do indeed have that ability.

Other Kobolds don't, though.


2) Surprise rounds are quite brutal, especially if the monsters team up on one guy.

Yep. Good tactics really shine in 4e.


3) 4e is much more unforgiving towards tactically unskilled players who don't understand the concepts of focusing fire and putting the monsters on the back foot. We were close to losing the second encounter because 2 out of 4 PCs were spreading their attacks around rather than nailing one until he dropped. (Unfortunately, we didn't get to finish, because the same two PCs had spent so long talking to the NPCs in town. Honestly, it's outrageous the way people keep roleplaying instead of getting with the program and killing stuff. :P)

Is that a complaint, or a compliment? I can't really tell.

Part of the reason for this is the reduction of reliance on spellcasters and SoS/L/Ds; you can't just gloss over the fact that one of the team members isn't contributing because you have Wizard McDeusEx over there winning every battle for you.


4) Of the ranger at-wills, Twin Strike is by far the best. Getting two shots means you can almost always hit and do your Hunter's Quarry damage, and it lets you cut through minions efficiently. (Strikers and controllers seem more exciting to play than defenders and leaders, but that could just be playstyle.)

Twin Strike does deal the most damage, yes, but the other two melee powers promote mobility, which can be huge in the right situation.

In short, all of the Ranger At-Will powers are just about as good as each other.

It is up to personal playstyle. Controllers and Strikers are the exciting ones, certainly, but I can see having lots of fun playing Defenders and Leaders as well.


5) The elf ability to shift into difficult terrain is surprisingly useful (at least, if the DM is using a map that includes it). I was using it to shift into woodland, getting cover and stopping the kobolds from shifting after me. Tactically fun. BTW, Yakk, you can reliably avoid AoO's with a bow ranger. :P I'd taken the TWF style and Quickdraw so that I could switch, though.

That is one interesting thing about 4e, the larger emphasis on terrain and how it effects battle, which I like.

Saph
2008-06-04, 07:55 PM
Kobold Dragonshields do indeed have that ability.

Other Kobolds don't, though.

It was driving the paladin nuts. I think he was close to quitting the game by the time the battle ended . . .


Is that a complaint, or a compliment? I can't really tell.

Does it matter? :P

(It was neither, just an observation. Not everything I post is pro- or anti-.)


Twin Strike does deal the most damage, yes, but the other two melee powers promote mobility, which can be huge in the right situation.

In short, all of the Ranger At-Will powers are just about as good as each other.

Disagree here. Twin Strike is just objectively better than Careful Attack in virtually every situation. So as an archery ranger, you're always going to take Twin Strike and Nimble Strike as your at-wills. (BTW, there's only one melee power.)

- Saph

SamTheCleric
2008-06-04, 07:59 PM
(BTW, there's only one melee power.)

- Saph

Twin Strike and Careful Strike are Ranged And Melee... Hit and Run is Melee only and Nimble Strike is Ranged Only... so they each get 3 :smallwink:

Saph
2008-06-04, 08:02 PM
Twin Strike and Careful Strike are Ranged And Melee... Hit and Run is Melee only and Nimble Strike is Ranged Only... so they each get 3 :smallwink:

I know - I meant "there's only one melee-only power".

- Saph

SamTheCleric
2008-06-04, 08:03 PM
I know - I meant "there's only one melee-only power".

- Saph

I just wanted to clarify... some people aren't as lucky as us and may not have the books. Trying to prevent misinformation at all fronts. Meant no offense.

JaxGaret
2008-06-04, 09:03 PM
It was driving the paladin nuts. I think he was close to quitting the game by the time the battle ended . . .

Just wait till he fights Insubstantial Lurker monsters :smallsmile:


Does it matter? :P

(It was neither, just an observation. Not everything I post is pro- or anti-.)

I was just curious. I forgot to include the third option: complaint, compliment, or neither.

Everything comes in threes.


Disagree here. Twin Strike is just objectively better than Careful Attack in virtually every situation. So as an archery ranger, you're always going to take Twin Strike and Nimble Strike as your at-wills.

Against very powerful opponents with a high AC, Careful Attack may be the better choice. But I agree, in most situations Twin Strike is superior.

Let me just point out that powerful opponents with high ACs are usually present during the battles that are most dangerous. It's possible that Twin Strike will do, on average, more damage over the length of the campaign, but it was actually Careful Attack that would have been most beneficial to your character.

Or not. It really depends on a lot of variables. I do agree that Twin Strike seems to be the better power, though.



(BTW, there's only one melee power.)

I meant of the three powers available as melee options.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-04, 09:07 PM
Hmm...now that I think of it, you can ready an action to use as soon as the Kobold shifts away and then walk in. If they move, they're totally screwed, so it should work.

obliged_salmon
2008-06-04, 09:35 PM
Rules say dragonshields can shift when an enemy moves adjacent, not when the enemy's move is complete. Of course, if you shift next to the kobold, your move is complete. Also, they can only do it once per round (can only do one interrupt or reaction per round).

its_all_ogre
2008-06-04, 09:41 PM
3) 4e is much more unforgiving towards tactically unskilled players who don't understand the concepts of focusing fire and putting the monsters on the back foot. We were close to losing the second encounter because 2 out of 4 PCs were spreading their attacks around rather than nailing one until he dropped.

Argh! here was me hoping the 4th ed might be better for my players with their total lack of tactical skill!
(todays amusement was by the players being lured into a trap, they realised it and start backing away to the only safe route out and notice 3 undead dire apes(with spell-like abilities) moving to block the exit...
one of the players actually suggested they wait to see what they do.....)

Saph
2008-06-05, 06:38 AM
Against very powerful opponents with a high AC, Careful Attack may be the better choice. But I agree, in most situations Twin Strike is superior.

Let me just point out that powerful opponents with high ACs are usually present during the battles that are most dangerous. It's possible that Twin Strike will do, on average, more damage over the length of the campaign, but it was actually Careful Attack that would have been most beneficial to your character.

Or not. It really depends on a lot of variables. I do agree that Twin Strike seems to be the better power, though.

I don't think so. Running the numbers, it seems the only time Careful Attack is better than Twin Strike is when you need a rolled score of exactly 20 to hit (making it an 18, 19, or 20 with Careful Attack).

If you need 21, then with Careful Attack you need a 19 or 20. Twin Strike is better here, because you're better off shooting twice and hoping for a lucky critical.

If you need a 19 or 20, then with Careful Attack you need a 17, 18, 19, or 20. Again, Twin Strike is better, because you've got more chance of a critical.

And if you need an 18 or lower, then Twin Strike is obviously better.

So the only time Careful Attack is better than Twin Strike is when you're fighting a monster with an AC of exactly 20 points higher than your attack bonus. If the monster's AC is even one point off from that in either direction, Careful Attack is inferior. And you're probably not going to know the monster's AC well enough to make the decision, anyway.

So Careful Attack is basically worthless. To be at all effective the bonus to hit would need to be something like +4 at least, instead of +2. Seems a fairly simple error, I'm surprised that they'd get something so straightforward wrong - wasn't this kind of combat balance what they were supposed to be focusing on for 4e? (Then again, it could be that WotC playtesters are just mediocre statisticians, which has plenty of evidence to support it in 3e as well.)


Rules say dragonshields can shift when an enemy moves adjacent, not when the enemy's move is complete.

That sounds more like it.

- Saph

Xefas
2008-06-05, 07:23 AM
That sounds more like it.

Yeah, the question came up over at enworld and was answered by a WotC guy.

Immediate Reactions (including Readied Actions) interact differently with movement than they do with other actions. Normally, they happen after the entire triggering action has been resolved. With movement, they happen after the target has moved into the square that triggers the action, and then the target is free to continue spending any unused speed for that action.

They said something akin to "Treat each square of movement as its own mini-action for the purposes of immediate reactions".

Yakk
2008-06-05, 09:59 AM
Transcribed Dragonshield Tactics:

Dragonshield Tactics (Immediate reaction, when an adjacent enemy shifts away or an enemy moves adjacent, at-will) The Kobold Dragonshield shifts 1 square.

Damn it, I missed that they could shift when an enemy moves adjacent. That's ... crazy!

I wonder a charge avoids that -- the charge is part of the movement?

Note that it is a reaction -- so the enemy is shifting after you enter the square.


Rules say dragonshields can shift when an enemy moves adjacent, not when the enemy's move is complete. Of course, if you shift next to the kobold, your move is complete. Also, they can only do it once per round (can only do one interrupt or reaction per round).

Aha! You don't have to declair your entire move at the start of it. So you move up to the DragonShield -- the DS shifts away. You can then move again, and the DS cannot do another immediate reaction on your turn...

Immediate Reactions are limited to once per round, which resets at the end of your turn.


Twin Strike does deal the most damage, yes, but the other two melee powers promote mobility, which can be huge in the right situation.

In short, all of the Ranger At-Will powers are just about as good as each other.

I think the Ranger, at least at low levels, can kick the crap out of the Rogue. Hunter's Quarry is far easier to use. Rogue at-wills are ... very meh -- they don't provide that much mobility at all (move 2 squares before an attack is the only one with a movement ability -- no shift!)

Also remember that Twin Strike doesn't do damage based off of your attribute.

The +2 for "no attribute damage" attacks all seem to suck.

And yes, running the math -- carful strike <<< twin strike, unless missing causes a problem (re: Goblins).


Against very powerful opponents with a high AC, Careful Attack may be the better choice. But I agree, in most situations Twin Strike is superior.

Suppose you need a 20 to hit normally, or a 18 to hit with careful strike.

Your hit does 6.5 damage with careful strike and your HQ is 4.5. Crit is 19.

Twin: 19 * .05 + 19 * .05 - 8 / 400 = 1.88 damage per action
Careful: 11 * .1 + 19 * .05 = 2.05 damage per action

So yes ... but in this case, you are basically dead. :)

At 19+ to hit normally and 17+ with careful:

Twin: above, plus .05*11*2 - 3*4.5/400 = 2.94625 damage per action
Careful: above, plus 11 * .05 = 2.6 damage per action

Basically, Careful only makes sense over Twin if Twin can only hit on a 20.

At the point where you are averaging less than 3 damage per action as a striker against a tough, high-AC NPC -- you are probably better off doing _anything_ else. Use heal skill in order to allow someone who can do damage to burn a healing surge!


So Careful Attack is basically worthless. To be at all effective the bonus to hit would need to be something like +4 at least, instead of +2.

In defense, that ability is used for many classes. The Ranger just happens to have a better one (which, honestly, is possibly too good for an at-will).

I suspect that this ability ends up ... rather sucking. +2 to hit in exchange for -3 to -5 to damage? That's a power on the level of 4e "Power Attack", which is a feat-level ability, not a power-level ability.

I'm starting to suspect that melee ranger > rogue.

Assuming ~ 50% chance to hit:
Bastard Ranger vs Dagger Rogue with Super Backstab:
Twin Strike: 5.5 + .75 * 4.5 = 8.875 at-will (admittedly, vs AC)
Rogue: Against reflex, so +.15 to hit. Dagger, so +0.5 to hit. Dex of +5. (2.5 + 9 + Dex) * .7 = 11.55 at-will

30% higher damage per action from the Rogue. The Rogue, however, requires combat advantage. Hmm, closer than I thought it would be.

The Rogue lacks any at-will shift attacks!

Dark Tira
2008-06-05, 10:14 AM
In defense, that ability is used for many classes. The Ranger just happens to have a better one (which, honestly, is possibly too good for an at-will).


I wouldn't go that far. It's good but I think Eyebite and Thunderwave are the premiere at-wills with Nimble Strike, Ray of Frost and Sacred Flame being a notch below them.

Saph
2008-06-05, 10:17 AM
At the point where you are averaging less than 3 damage per action as a striker against a tough, high-AC NPC -- you are probably better off doing _anything_ else. Use heal skill in order to allow someone who can do damage to burn a healing surge!

To be honest, if the striker needs 20s to hit, you're probably dead anyway. :)


I'm starting to suspect that melee ranger > rogue.

Assuming ~ 50% chance to hit:
Bastard Ranger vs Dagger Rogue with Super Backstab:
Twin Strike: 5.5 + .75 * 4.5 = 8.875 at-will (admittedly, vs AC)
Rogue: Against reflex, so +.15 to hit. Dagger, so +0.5 to hit. Dex of +5. (2.5 + 9 + Dex) * .7 = 11.55 at-will

30% higher damage per action from the Rogue. The Rogue, however, requires combat advantage. Hmm, closer than I thought it would be.

The Rogue lacks any at-will shift attacks!

A Rogue with combat advantage hits harder than a Ranger (in fact, I think a Rogue with combat advantage hits harder than anyone).

The problem is that actually getting that combat advantage is a pain in the neck. Flanking with a defender works, but monsters usually outnumber PCs, rather than the other way round. And trying to flank Dragonshields, with their shifting ability . . . ugh. While I haven't tried it, I get the impression that trying to flank with a melee rogue against a swarm of enemies could easily result in you being AoO'ed to death.

Hunter's Quarry does less damage, but it's easier and safer to use. And Twin Strike makes it more reliable still, since you're very unlikely to get a complete miss.

- Saph

Pyroconstruct
2008-06-05, 10:23 AM
Righteous Brand is probably the most overpowered at-will.

Dark Tira
2008-06-05, 10:32 AM
Righteous Brand is probably the most overpowered at-will.
That could be. The ones I listed I judged in a vacuum. I left out Righteous Brand since it's useless without an ally near you, the enemy alive, and the ally prepared to attack it, but it is indeed situationally very very powerful.

Izar Goldbranch
2008-06-05, 11:26 AM
The most efficient way to use a rogue that I've seen so far is to have him flank with a Warlord.

The rogue makes a sneak attack and on the Warlord's turn, he uses his Commander's strike ability to have the rogue attack again.

Two, two, two sneaks in one! :D

SamTheCleric
2008-06-05, 11:28 AM
Actually, I dont think that will work... a rogue only gets sneak attack damage once a round.

Izar Goldbranch
2008-06-05, 11:33 AM
Actually, I dont think that will work... a rogue only gets sneak attack damage once a round.


Well, it worked for us. Damn DM was softballing us! ;) *nudges Sam*

SamTheCleric
2008-06-05, 11:34 AM
Well, it worked for us. Damn DM was softballing us! ;) *nudges Sam*

Well. Yeah, I fudged it a bit since you were only 4 people taking on a 5 person encounter. :smallbiggrin:

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-05, 11:35 AM
A Rogue with combat advantage hits harder than a Ranger (in fact, I think a Rogue with combat advantage hits harder than anyone).

I dunno. Depending on the weapon, a fighter can do comparable or bigger damage than a rogue (With powers like Storm of Destruction or Dragon's Fangs and a 2d6 weapon). Situationally, of course. Usually, the rogue hits for more.


The problem is that actually getting that combat advantage is a pain in the neck. Flanking with a defender works, but monsters usually outnumber PCs, rather than the other way round. And trying to flank Dragonshields, with their shifting ability . . . ugh. While I haven't tried it, I get the impression that trying to flank with a melee rogue against a swarm of enemies could easily result in you being AoO'ed to death.


Easy setup. If it hits, the enemy gives you combat advantage and he goes down.

As for the OA's, maybe Artful dodger is better than we thought?

Also, what would be the ruling on which immediate reaction goes first? Does the readied attack hit before the movement is complete, or does the dragonshield shift away unharmed?

Bearonet
2008-06-05, 11:43 AM
I like your thread, Yakk!

I've been going through the module with my group, it's interesting to see a different look at it.

Edit: Artful Dodger is SRSLY underestimated! It's sensible for Rogues to want to do as much damage as they possibly can, but Brutal Scoundrel only adds a few points, probably 3 to 7 (start to endgame); double that on rare occasions. Artful Dodger always lets you move around more safely, position yourself for sneak attack, move enemies around, etc. 4E plays tactically, that makes Artful Dodger good.

The biggest advantage of Brutal Scoundrel is those powers like Topple Over which add Strength to the attack roll, they can almost guarantee a hit (and then spend an action point to use a daily w/ combat advantage, etc).

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-05, 12:15 PM
I like your thread, Yakk!

I've been going through the module with my group, it's interesting to see a different look at it.

Edit: Artful Dodger is SRSLY underestimated! It's sensible for Rogues to want to do as much damage as they possibly can, but Brutal Scoundrel only adds a few points, probably 3 to 7 (start to endgame); double that on rare occasions. Artful Dodger always lets you move around more safely, position yourself for sneak attack, move enemies around, etc. 4E plays tactically, that makes Artful Dodger good.

The biggest advantage of Brutal Scoundrel is those powers like Topple Over which add Strength to the attack roll, they can almost guarantee a hit (and then spend an action point to use a daily w/ combat advantage, etc).

Nah, you're underestimating Brutal scoundrel. Consider that adding STR to damage (Assuming a 16 for STR, and a 20 for DEX, good starting scores) gives you +7 damage at first level, the equivalent to the average of 2d6. That's REALLY strong, and it gets better the higher you climb. By the endgame, that's an extra 18 damage, the equivalent of adding the average of 4d8 dice to damage. Per attack. It's awesome.

Artful Dodger is good, but the question here is: Can you put your AC high enough so that you don't need it? If so, you take BS, else, you take AD.

jaqueses
2008-06-05, 02:23 PM
I just noticed this, but the handaxe and the thrown hammer are both off-hand and heavy thrown weapons. Whats stopping a ranger from using those to be both a two-weapon fighter and a ranged fighter?

Yakk
2008-06-05, 02:40 PM
If you get your AC high enough to ignore enemy attacks without abilities like Art. Dodger, you have broken 4e.

AD + Halfling + AO Feat @ 16 cha ends up with +7 AC against OA -- at that point, you might be able to ignore OA if your AC is otherwise high.

...

I think, at least at low levels, Lance of Faith is better. It is against reflex, and it is ranged so you don't have to wade in. Then again, if you have a rogue, wading in kicks ass.

...

The Brute rogue damage is only the Str component -- you don't get credit for the dex. So that's +3, say, damage on the hit on any Sneak attack.

...

Going to be doing the 4th encounter tonight. Will probably switch up which classes are being used, and not use two high level characters, and see how it goes. :)

I'll have to pay attention to DS tactics, however!

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-05, 03:18 PM
The Brute rogue damage is only the Str component -- you don't get credit for the dex. So that's +3, say, damage on the hit on any Sneak attack.

If you have SA, chances are you're going to use a power to capitalize on it. Dex from the power + STR from the SA = a very neat 18 damage.

Bearonet
2008-06-05, 03:38 PM
Nah, you're underestimating Brutal scoundrel. Consider that adding STR to damage (Assuming a 16 for STR, and a 20 for DEX, good starting scores) gives you +7 damage at first level, the equivalent to the average of 2d6. That's REALLY strong, and it gets better the higher you climb. By the endgame, that's an extra 18 damage, the equivalent of adding the average of 4d8 dice to damage. Per attack. It's awesome.
The internet term to apply here would be "you're doing it wrong", but judging by the rules (boy, those are strict!) I think the forum would frown on such image macros.

Adding STR to damage with 16 STR gets you +3 damage. An Artful Dodger gets the DEX to damage! 16 STR = +3 damage on sneak attacks. It's also +3 damage on powers that let a Brutal Scoundrel add his STR to the power's damage, in addition to sneak attack damage. Why are you counting dexterit for this?!


Artful Dodger is good, but the question here is: Can you put your AC high enough so that you don't need it? If so, you take BS, else, you take AD.
No, you can't, because if you don't need it, you could be ignoring EVERY attack made vs. your AC, and that'd be wrong!

What's more, the AC bonus is just a small part of Artful Dodger. I'm talking about the powers that let you shift multiple squares, slide enemies multiple squares, and so on! They were invaluable in my 4E session yesterday. Sliding powers + Wall of Fire is made of death for your enemies. The rogue already has high damage. Rather than adding 3 or sometimes 6 points more, I'd rather be able to shift 3 squares more, slide enemies 3 squares more, and so on!

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-05, 03:48 PM
*Sigh* If you have SA, you're going to use a power to benefit from it. Most powers give you X W + Dex as damage. Thus, you get both STR and DEX when you add up the SA damage AND the power damage.

Not to mention, the real benefit of brutal scoundrel doesn't lie there. It's in powers like Imperiling strike. The ranger or fighter will love you for giving them a big chance of connecting with their Storm of Destruction or Blade Cascade. Go ahead and tell me that a slide is better than opening up the possibility of ending the fight with a single power. Or that Hounding Strike is better than the massive damage you can do with Dragon Tail strike.

Thrawn183
2008-06-05, 04:06 PM
Well, consider yourself told. (Oooo, I told you :smallbiggrin:)

An El 7 Red Dragon has 332 HP. Making sure that one encounter or daily power lands... just isn't enough against something like that. Its better, sometimes, to be able to continuously ensure things like combat advantage for fights that are pretty much impossible to end quickly. I think you're still approaching this from the 3.5 perspective where you can end fights relatively quickly.

And those high level powers you were mentioning? What about when that dragon is an EL 15? That's right, 750 hp. Ensuring that a 5[w] power hits... just doesn't make much difference against something like that.

JaxGaret
2008-06-05, 08:16 PM
And yes, running the math -- carful strike <<< twin strike, unless missing causes a problem (re: Goblins).

Yeah, you're absolutely right. I don't know what I was thinking of when I posted that before.

Careful Attack is better than Twin Strike in such statistically slim circumstances that it is indeed simply not as good as Twin Strike.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-05, 08:29 PM
Well, consider yourself told. (Oooo, I told you :smallbiggrin:)

An El 7 Red Dragon has 332 HP. Making sure that one encounter or daily power lands... just isn't enough against something like that. Its better, sometimes, to be able to continuously ensure things like combat advantage for fights that are pretty much impossible to end quickly. I think you're still approaching this from the 3.5 perspective where you can end fights relatively quickly.

And those high level powers you were mentioning? What about when that dragon is an EL 15? That's right, 750 hp. Ensuring that a 5[w] power hits... just doesn't make much difference against something like that.

:smallamused:

10 W. 2 STR. High power weapon, that's a tenth of the HP down. Yeah, no effect.


Blade cascade. Attack until you miss. No sirrah, it's useless. Never mind that stacking STR multiple time is gonna inflict humongous damage.

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