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Another_Poet
2008-06-06, 12:02 PM
The purpose of this thread is to get feedback and collaboration on my ideas for designing a complete roleplaying game that is meant to be used in a Play-by-Post forum (or Pb Email, or Pb Chat). Not just a campaign or a campaign setting, but an entire brand-new mechanic that caters to the way PbP games tend to run. I will be posting my basic ideas here, and looking forward to reading constructive critique and suggestions.

The initial form of this game will be a fantasy genre RPG, but eventually retooling it for sci fi or other genres seems likely.

Who is invited to post here? Everyone! What I expect will happen is lots of people will casually post their ideas or comments, and in time a handful of posters will get really involved and become integral to the design process. As this happens I intend for the design process to become more and more collaborative. For now I am the main author of the rules and not everything suggested here will get into the final version. There will always be more good ideas than can fit into one game, after all.

This thread will be ongoing and it will probably take months, if not a year of discussion to come up with a full PbP system.

If you are interested in helping design this, please look at each of the sections below (or just whichever one or two sections seem of interest to you) and post your thoughts. I will keep each section updated as new ideas and edits are suggested. All ideas are welcome, just keep it civil. :smallwink:

Copyright info:

I am not going to sell this system. At least at this point in time, I have no plans to market this system in any way. If the system ever comes together enough to be playable, I intend to offer it up for free, with the core rules available to anyone online. If related products (supplements, DM screens, etc.) are ever financially viable, that would be great but that is not my intent right now. I'm just a player and DM with gripes about how pen-and-paper games translate to a play-by-post forum, and I want to make a system that works more smoothly online.

Ideas suggested here by posters may or may not be incorporated into the free rules. If you suggest something here, you may one day see it in the free rules. If the system is ever completed and offered up for people to play, credit will be given to the wonderful creative people who post here at GiantITP, but probably not on an individual or name-by-name basis except for the biggest contributors.

Credits
A few posters have distinguished themselves by their clear thinking, their notable design skill, and the frequent attention they give to this thread. I would like to thank everyone who has helped here, and especially:
Elliot20
Skjaldbakka
Erikun
Mikeejimbo
ShneekeyTheLost

...and of course the Giant for providing this wonderful forum!

There are also some games that deserve mention...

I should point out that although everything in the PbP system is either my original work or the original work of collaborators & posters on this forum, several games served as inspiration for me.

Obviously, Dungeons & Dragons is a major inspiration to me as it is to most gamers. Although many people see the tropes of D&D as outdated, it’s still the game that gets most of us started and I greatly enjoy playing it. 3.5 Edition is my bread and butter, and has informed my roleplaying and DMing skills and vocabulary.

Although I’ve never played it, the Over the Edge pen-and-paper roleplaying game is also a major inspiration. According to my wife, the number of d6 you roll in that game is entirely dependent on your character concept, not on any in-game statistics or mechanics. I would foresee such a rules-light, interpretation-heavy game falling apart with my gaming group, but a similar idea is obviously integral to the PbP system.

Lastly, the ZODIAC system, a mechanic for playing Final Fantasy inspired pen-and-paper games, has been very inspirational to me. The main thing I admire about that system is its method for constructing new spells and abilities and making sure they are balanced for a character. I want a system for doing that in PbP as well, and although I haven’t played ZODIAC I have read the rules and think it has many great ideas. Special kudos to the producers of ZODIAC for keeping it free and publicly available, as I hope to do with PbP.

Some background:

Six weeks ago I solicited advice on what kinds of rules people would want to see in a PbP mechanic. I got a lot of responses, and many of the responses shared common themes. These themes include:

1) Selecting characters based on char concept, rather than having every applicant stat a full character.

2) Not using strict turn-by-turn initiative in fights.

3) Tweaking the sorts of encounters so that they do not last a lot of rounds or have a lot of repetition.

4) Giving the DM the power to "NPC" a character (force him to act) if the player doesn't show up.

5) Different administrative style - either the DM is constantly urging people to post and maintaining interest in the game (OOC solution) or the DM sets up the game to be episiodic and not require the same players for very long (IC solution). [Note: I prefer the in-game solution, both because it is less work for the DM and because it is impossible for me to make rules that force a DM to use a certain administrative style.]

The full thread that these themes are drawn from can be found here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77950

Naming the PbP System

Coming up with cool names for new things is pretty much a gamer's favourite thing to do. That said, I've so far resisted the urge to name this system. I have a few ideas in my head, but I feel kind of weird spending too much time brainstorming a title for something instead of actually writing the darn thing. ("Postmaster" is my joke name for it.)

So this is the least important section, and I really prefer help with the rules themselves, but if anyone has a particularly cool name idea feel free to suggest it!

Names suggested so far:
RPGbP (Role Playing Game by Post)
PostHaste



ACTUAL GAME DESIGN PART I:

The basic idea & core mechanic - a must read to understand the system!


GETTING STARTED
Most PbP games start with the process of gathering players and choosing which ones will be in the game. When D20 or most other tabletop games are played by post, this process can be lengthy, with a week or more of recruiting as people submit character ideas, roll stats, choose skills and gear, and so forth. Even after all that work, not all players will necessarily get chosen for the game – since most tabletop combats are lengthy and rules-intensive, it is difficult to run more than four or five players.

With the PbP system, recruitment is much shorter. A DM can post a game idea and choose players based entirely on character concept. Very little time is needed to stat out the characters because most of character creation is done during the game. Additionally, since combat is short and the DM can easily resolve actions in a player’s absence, larger groups can be run with ease.


CORE MECHANIC
You start a new game, you have a great new character, and all sorts of obstacles and challenges start coming your way. Maybe you need to take down the villain as he gives his egomaniacal speech, pry a jail cell open, or shoot that pterodon flying overhead. Based on your character concept, decide how good your character is at that sort of activity. Is it a core skill she’s thoroughly trained in, a side skill she uses from time to time, or neither—something your character rarely ever has to do? You don’t need to check with your DM first, just decide which you think it is and roll…

3d6 plus any modifiers if it’s a core skill. You only have 7 core skill slots so choose carefully!

2d6 plus any modifiers if it’s a side skill. You have 12 side skill slots.

1d6 plus any modifiers if it’s neither. Everything is 1d6 unless it is a core or side skill.

Watch for critical successes! If you roll two 6’s and no 1’s, you have a critical success. This can happen when rolling 2d6 or 3d6. Critical successes do different things on different rolls:
-On an attack roll, the attack deals double damage.
-On an evasion roll you get a free counter attack.
-On a will roll you get a chance to reflect the attack back on the caster.
-On any other roll, critical successes don’t make a difference.

You can Take Mean on any roll. Taking Mean means assuming you roll a 3 on 1d6, a 7 on 2d6, and a 10 on 3d6. When Taking Mean there is no chance of a critical success.

If you aren’t around when your turn comes up the DM decides your action for you. The DM will usually set a fixed time window (say, 24 hours) for how long they’ll wait before taking control of a player character. Whenever the DM takes control like this, she or her always Takes Mean.

If you roll too many dice by mistake you do not get to reroll. The DM takes the dice in the order they were rolled, using the first dice first and ignoring any extra.

If you roll too few dice by mistake the DM assumes you Take Mean on any remaining dice. You cannot get a critical success this way.

There are no critical failures in PbP.


MODIFIERS
Modifiers (bonuses to a skill) can be purchased in +1 increments. This can be done by spending build points during character creation, by spending XP during the game, or by using gear or spells that add modifiers. You can purchase modifiers to any skill, whether or not it is a core or side skill for you. Not all modifiers are priced equally, however.

Revised Character Creation Rules

CHARACTERS
Like any RPG, the first step to playing PbP is to create your character. Unlike other games, character creation is done largely during the game. This minimizes the amount of time it takes to get a game started and lets people launch right into gameplay.

This means you’ll pick a lot of your skills and gear during the game. You might even wait to see what kinds of challenges the DM throws at you the most during the first week or two and pick your skills with these challenges in mind. This is considered perfectly acceptable in PbP, and DM’s should keep an open mind as the game starts and characters begin to flesh out. (Remember though, your DM might have other sorts of challenges in store for you down the road, so don’t base everything on what you see at the beginning.)

There are several steps to creating a PbP character, and theoretically you could go through them all before the game starts so that your character is done before you roll a single dice. We think it is more fun, however, to hold off and adapt as the campaign unfolds. There’s nothing more exciting than realizing in the middle of the life-or-death encounter with the big villain that you have one core skill slot left to assign. Thus, the character creation summary shows suggestions as to whether a step should be done before the game or during the game. Individual DM’s and players can alter this process as needed.


CHARACTER CREATION SUMMARY

Before the Game:
Step 1: State your id.
Step 2: Buy your four main stats (the Tetrad) using build points and skill slots.
Step 3-4: Buy your weapons and armour (if any) using build points.

During the Game:
Step 5: Buy your spells (if any) using build points.
Step 6-7: Spend any remaining build points by buying feats, extra gear, or modifiers to your skills. You can also save build points as XP
Step 8: Decide which skills are your core and side skills.



THE STEP-BY-STEP VERSION

Step One: Id
The first step of character creation is to state your id. The id is a one- or two- sentence description of the talents and abilities your character has. (You can also write a much longer backstory and give a physical description, but that is separate. The id specifically describes talents and abilities.) For example:

Girard is a former bodyguard for an important noble. He specializes in stealth, quick kills, and security.

Daro’s family forced her into the convent against her wishes, but when she discovered the secret martial arts taught there, she committed herself wholly to the training.

Step 2: The Tetrad
All characters have four main stats: Breath, Spirit, Evasion, and Will.

Breath is your life force, your physical resilience. It shows how much energy you can put into absorbing or shrugging off damage before taking serious wounds. Breath is the closest thing to “hit points” in PbP.

Spirit is your store of inner power. It shows how much spiritual energy you have to expend on magic or special techniques. Many martial techniques are also fueled by Spirit.

Evasion determines whether or not physical attacks hit you. (If they do hit you, you lose Breath – but only if the damage gets past your armour.) Evasion is used against many magical attacks as well. See the “Evasion” section below.

Will determines your resistance to non-physical effects, including a wide range of debilitating combat spells. If you cannot resist such effects you may find yourself unable to operate in battle, or working for the enemy.

Evasion and Will involve dice rolls every time they are used. Every character has 1d6 for both of these stats until they declare them to be side skills or core skills.

Breath and Spirit are fixed amounts; every character starts off with a Breath of 6 and a Spirit of 6. Additional Breath or Spirit points can be purchased with build points on a 20-to-1 basis (20 bp buys 1 point of either Breath or Spirit). Your DM will tell you how many build points you have total to put into your character. Don’t spend them all on Breath and Spirit, however!

A Note on Evasion...

Evasion is the only dice roll that “costs extra.” This is because Evasion is used more often than any other skill. Like all skills, characters start with 1d6 in Evasion. However:

To get Evasion as a side skill you must buy it three times. In other words, it takes up three side skill slots to roll evasion at 2d6. If you choose to do this you can only have nine other side skills).

To get Evasion as a core skill you must first buy it as a side skill (spending three side skill slots to do so). You can then spend two core skill slots to roll Evasion at 3d6. In other words, if you have Evasion as a core skill you can only have five other core skills and nine side skills.

The best way to record Evasion on your character sheet, if you choose to buy it as a side or core skill, is to literally write it down multiple times to show how many slots it fills up. This way there is little chance of accidentally getting too many skills. And you wouldn't want that!

Step 3: Arms…
Buy your weapons using build points. Each weapon has a p-value (power value; its effectiveness expressed in build points). Weapons are priced according to their p-value; a 60p weapon costs 60 build points to own. The selection of weapons your character owns will probably influence your choice of weapon skills, but remember, you don’t have to choose which skills are side skills or core skills until gameplay starts.

Modifiers for weapon damage can also be purchased (charts forthcoming).

Step 4: …and Armour
Buy your armour using build points. Each kind of armour has a p-value which is equal to its price in build points. Remember that armour proficiency requires side skill or core skill slots, so this will influence your skills choice once gameplay starts. Enhancements for armour can also be purchased (chart forthcoming).

Step 5: Spells
If your character is a spellcaster you will need to determine which spells he or she knows. Each known spell costs build points. It is possible for any character to know spells, but warrior types are usually better off buying physical skills at the beginning and adding a few spells later on in the campaign. For dedicated casters it is a good idea to pick up one or two offensive spells and two or three defensive, curing, buffing, or utility spells.

Remember that spellcasters will need to make Casting rolls and may want a number of Mystic skills as well. Such skills aren’t chosen till gameplay has started, but start planning early. Don’t spread yourself too thin!

Step 6: Not Enough Build Points
You may find that your character doesn’t have enough build points to start off as strong or as skilled as you had hoped. If this is the case, you can choose one or more flaws in order to gain extra build points. Be careful not to weaken your character too much! (Chart forthcoming.)

Step 7: Extra Build Points
You may also find that after purchasing the basic gear or spells your character needs you still have build points left over. At this point it’s a good idea to look at buying other kinds of gear (Gear Charts forthcoming) or modifiers for skills, weapons or armour. You may also convert your build points to XP, essentially saving them for later use.

Step 8: Skills (or, How Many Dice Do I Roll?)
Choosing your skills is the last part of character creation, and is usually done during gameplay as various skills come up. There are a wide variety of skills, and you can designate any skill as a core skill or side skill. This determines how many dice you roll for that skill.

Core skills are skills your character has thorough experience with because of her training or specialties. Characters have seven core skills. Any time you use a core skill you roll 3d6.

Side skills are skills that your character is familiar with but doesn’t rely heavily on. Characters have twelve side skills. When using a side skill roll 2d6.

For everything else roll just 1d6.

Remember, you need not choose your core and side skills until gameplay starts. The first time you use any given skill, decide how many dice to roll for that skill (3d6 if the skill is crucial to your character concept, 2d6 if it is relevant but not crucial, and 1d6 if it isn’t even relevant to your character concept). Keep the following guidelines in mind:

*If you roll 2d6 or 3d6 on a skill, you should mention in your post that you are “adding this as a side skill” or “adding this as a core skill”. Follow through right away by listing the skill in the appropriate place on your character sheet.

*You cannot have more than 7 core skills and 12 side skills without spending XP (experience points).

*Clearly marking your core and side skills on your sheet is one of the most important rules in the game. If your DM notices any discrepancies in your skills (too many core or side skills, not recording the ones you’ve declared, hard-to-understand skills list, etc.) your character will probably roll all skills at 1d6 until you straighten things out to the DM’s satisfaction.

*Once you have your seven core and twelve side skills, all other skills are rolled at 1d6 until the characters reach a point when they can spend XP.

Skills: A Tentative and Incomplete List

SKILLS
Skills are divided into skill categories. The categories are Weapons, Martial, Casting, Astral, Social, Practical, and Knowledge.

Weapon skills: Each Weapon Group is a skill, and most groups include several different types of weapons. Note that you have to buy each weapon group separately; you can have 3d6 in longswords and still only roll 1d6 in sideswords. Weapon skill dice only determine your attack roll (to-hit), not your damage.

Martial skills: Manoeuvres used in battle. A few examples include wrestling, disarming, shield use, entangling, nerve strikes, ground fighting and feinting.

Casting skills: Your knack for casting various kinds of spells.

Astral skills: Out-of-body abilities and techniques for possession and exorcism.

Social skills: Any skill that involves talking, persuading or charisma and is not covered above probably fits here. Bluffing, bartering, and gathering intel are examples of social skills.

Practical skills: Any skill that involves physical action and is not covered above probably fits here. Athletics, picking locks, fishing, smithing, and playing musical instruments are just a few examples.

Knowledge skills: Includes extensive knowledge about various subjects either from academic study or personal experience. Knowledge skills are bought in pairs (i.e. you get two knowledge skills for every side-skill or core-skill slot you spend).

Weapons


WEAPONS
All physical attacks belong to at least one weapon group and all characters start off with 1d6 in every group. Like other skills, a weapon group can be declared as a side or core skill. Each group is separate, so if you declare sideswords to be a core skill you still only have 1d6 in polearms. If a weapon is listed under two different groups, consider it part of whichever group is most beneficial to you.

Weapons and weapon groups have different qualities. These qualities affect how they can be used and how powerful they are, and weapons often have more than one quality. You will see qualities listed beside most weapon groups and some individual weapons. The full list of qualities and what they mean is given here:


WEAPON QUALITIES
1H: One-handed weapons. One-handed weapons are light enough to be wielded single-handedly, leaving the other hand open for a shield, a second weapon, or some other use.
10

2H: Two-handed weapons. Two-handers cannot be used with shields or secondary weapons. However, they are good for parrying or blocking enemies, and grant a +1 bonus to Evasion.
10

0H: This quality only applies to unarmed combat, and it leaves both hands free. You can treat 0H attacks as 1H (allowing use of a shield or secondary weapon), 2H (allowing you to add your Strength modifier to damage) or as Rapid weapons (allowing two 1H strikes at a time). 0H attacks only get one of these abilities at a time, never two or three at once.
10

Rapid: These weapons are built for speed. You can attack twice as a single action, but you use half your roll for each attack (roll twice and halve each result).
10

Melee: These weapons can only be used to strike enemies one square away – that is, squares adjacent to you. Melee weapons can be thrown like Thrown weapons (see “Thrown” below) but they use half the character’s Thrown attack roll.
10 (8 sq)

Reach: These weapons can be used to strike two squares away – they cannot be used to attack adjacent squares.
20 (16 sq - Doubles # of threatened squares)

Thrown: These weapons can be used to strike any square within 20’. They can also be used against squares that are between 25’ and 40’ away, but divide your attack roll in half. They cannot strike targets farther than 40’ away. Thrown weapons are lost when thrown, and must be retrieved before they can be used again.
30 (60 sq)

Short Range: These weapons fire ammunition up to 50’. They can also be used against squares that are 55’ to 100’ away, but divide your attack roll in half. They cannot strike targets farther than 100’ away. You can’t use a Short Range weapon without ammunition.
50

Long Range: These weapons fire ammunition up to 100’. They can also be used against squares that are 105’ to 200’ away, but divide your attack roll in half. They cannot strike targets farther than 200’ away. You can’t use a Long Range weapon without ammunition.
100?

Piercing: These weapons ignore 1 point of armour when fired within their basic range (50’ for Short Range, 100’ for Long Range).
10

Special: Some weapons have their own special qualities, explained in the entry for the weapon group.
Varies; price each one



WEAPON GROUPS
Boxing (Melee, 0H)
Includes kicks, punches, and all manner of unarmed strikes.

Basic Weapons (Melee, 1H)
Daggers, dirks, clubs, hatchets, shortspears and other lightweight weapons that are easy to use. Most weapons fall into this group.

Knives (Melee, 1H, Rapid)
Daggers and dirks used for quick flurries of stabs and slices.

Fencing (Melee, 1H)
Lightweight weapons that pierce through the body. Includes epees, rapiers, and sabres.
Special: +1 to damage with these weapons.

Sideswords (Melee, 1H)
One-handed blades used primarily for slashing and thrusting. Shortswords, scimitars, wakizashi, bastard swords (1H) and the like fit into this category.
Special: +1 to attack rolls with these weapons.

Longswords (Melee, 2H)
Two-handed blades used for hewing, slicing, and thrusting. Longswords, katana, bastard swords (2H), and greatswords (such as a claymore) are in this category.
Special: +1 to Evasion when using these weapons.

Staves (Melee)
Quarterstaves (2H), fighting sticks (1H), and clubs (1H).
Special: These weapons can be improvised by anyone, no roll needed.

Flails (Melee, 1H)
Whips, chains, and flails are used to entangle as well as damage the opponent.
Special: Can use your Flail skill in place of your Trip skill while wielding these weapons.

Polearms (Reach, 2H)
Lochabers, halberds, glaives, and longspears used to fight across ranks of infantry or over barriers.

Thrown (Thrown, 1H)
Javelins, hatchets, throwing knives, throwing stars, etc.

Bows (2H, Piercing)
Snap bows (Short Range) and longbows (Long Range).

Crossbows:
Crossbows (Long Range, 2H) and crossbow pistols (Short Range, 1H).
Special: Takes one action and two hands to reload.
Special: Attack roll modifiers cost half as much as normal.

Guns:
Muskets (Long Range, 2H) and pistols (Short Range, 1H).
Special: Take two actions and two hands to reload.
Special: Attack roll modifiers and damage modifiers cost half as much as normal.

Improvised Weapons:
This is a special group that doesn’t refer to any one type of weapon. Instead, characters with this skill are particularly good at picking up random objects and using them as weapons. Declaring Improvised Weapons as a core (or side) skill lets you rolls 3d6 (or 2d6) when wielding up to three types of objects. For instance, you could take Improvised Weapons as a side skill and treat chairs, lanterns, and vases/urns as weapons with 2d6 on your attack rolls.

You do not have to decide which three types of objects to designate right away; you can wait and see what types of objects you run into along your adventure. Once you have designated a type of object as one of your improvised weapons you can’t change it. The DM decides what type of weapon (from the groups above) an object is most similar to, and thus its qualities, p-value and the cost of adding modifiers to it. If you want to wield more than three kinds of objects as improvised weapons, you can spend additional side skill or core skill slots on Improvised Weapons, with each slot adding three more kinds of objects.


WEAPON DAMAGE
By default all weapons deal 1d6 points of weapon damage. If a weapon is of higher quality or if it has been enchanted, the amount of damage may be higher. Damage can be raised either by dice (2d6, 3d6) or by modifiers (1d6+3, 2d6+1). The higher the damage a weapon deals, the higher its power value [chart forthcoming].

All physical weapons deal weapon damage, no matter how high their damage output. Weapon damage is damage caused by the body being slammed, sliced, thrashed or penetrated by something hard. The target's armour value must be subtracted from the total weapon damage dealt.

The only way a physical weapon can deal some other kind of damage (heat, cold, etc.) is if it is enchanted, and even then it is in addition to its weapon damage, not instead of.


Armour & Shields


ARMOUR

Any character can wear any type of armour. There are three types of armour, each with its own armour value and armour penalty. Armour value refers to how many points of damage the armour absorbs from a given attack; armour penalty is a fixed penalty that is applied to all Attack, Casting and Athletics rolls while wearing the armour.

Heavy Armour: Metal scales or plates that cover the whole body, with greaves and gauntlets and a gorget filling in the gaps. Can have an armour value of up to 6 (but 3 is stnadard).

HEAVY ARMOUR CHART (2/3 penalty)
Armour Value Armour Penalty
6......................-4
5......................-3
4......................-3
3......................-2


Medium Armour: Ring mail, lamellar armour, or very thick leather armour with metal components. Can have an armour value of up to 4 (but 2 is standard).

MEDIUM ARMOUR CHART (1/2 penalty)
Armour Value Armour Penalty
4......................-2
3......................-2
2......................-1

Light Armour: Quilted or leather armour, usually without any metal except for the helmet (if any). Can have an armour value of up to 2 (but 1 is standard). Light armour imparts no armour penalty at all.

Armour value can be increased beyond its maximum only by enchantment or the use of special materials in its construction. Many suits of armour have other magical properties as well, such as amplifying magic or slowly healing the wearer. [A gear table will be forthcoming.]

Note that armour only reduces weapon damage; other types of damage (heat, cold, etc.) may not be affected.

Armour penalties can be lessened for a particular piece of armour by enchantment, or for all armour a character uses by spending XP [a section on special abilities is forthcoming].



SHIELDS

Unlike armour, shields do not absorb damage; instead they boost Evasion. Anyone can use a shield, but how much the shield boosts Evasion depends on your character's Shield skill. This skill can be puchased as a side or core skill like any other, but it does not involve a dice roll. Instead, characters with Shields as a core skill get +3 to Evasion while using any shield; those with Shields as a side skill get +2; everyone else gets +1. If a shield is enchanted or made of special materials it may grant additional bonuses or have other special properties as well.

However, a character's Shield skill is not the only factor in determining how useful a shield is. Like weapons, shields can have different qualities:

Arm: Arm shields are strapped to the arm, leaving both hands free.

Heavy: Heavy shields require the use of a hand and arm. That hand cannot be used for anything else.

Wall: Shields with this quality can be used to form shield walls.

Fixable: Fixable shields have a pointed base which can be spiked into the ground. Doing so allows a character to use the shield (in one direction only) without having to hold onto it. It takes an action to pull the shield back up.

[A table of specific shields and their power value is forthcoming.]


Magic **MAGIC SECTION NOW INCLUDES HEALING!!!**


TYPES OF MAGIC
In PbP, as in most games, the magic that players use most frequently is combat-related. There's little need for an adventurer to have spells to increase garden output or keep the bathroom clean. Some spells with no combat applications are still useful, but they're in the minority. That leads to four broad types of magic characters can use: Combat Strike Magic, Combat Support Magic, Utility Magic, and Healing. Each of the four will be reviewed in detail below (but right now, only Combat Strike Magic is finished).


STRIKE MAGIC
Strike Magic manifests energies and objects to destroy enemy units. Clouds of fire, lightning storms, and rains of otherworldly arrows are just a few variations. If it calls some painful substance into being, it's Strike Magic. (Note: summoned spirits, even those sent into combat, are covered under Support Magic.)

Strike magic can be learned and used in two different ways. The relevant casting skills can be learned to cast a variety of related spells, or an individual spell can be learned on its own. A character can even mix and match between these methods. The rules and benefits of each method are below.

Casting Skills: Several skill groups are useful to a character specialising in strike magic. When a character uses their casting skill to cast a spell, they roll the skill and add any relevant modifiers. The total is the number the spell's target(s) must beat on their Evasion or Will roll to avoid damage.

In addition the caster must pay the relevant Spirit cost. If they don't have enough Spirit points remaining the spell cannot be cast at all. The Spirit cost is determined by the particulars of the spell in question, and is listed with each of the pre-made spells available to all mages [chart fortchoming].

Spells can also be custom-made by those with the relevant casting skill. In this case the Spirit cost depends on a number of variables, including the range and energy type of the spell, and how much damage it does. A complete chart for determining Spirit cost is given here:


Spell Effect........................................Spir it Cost*

Range
Melee range
Short range
Long range

Damage per target
1d6 damage
2d6 damage
3d6 amage

Energy Type
Weapon (physical)
Heat
Cold
Caustic
Electrical
Sonic
Holy
Unholy
Phantasmic

Special Modifiers
Add extra energy
Add status effect (see separate chart)
Add buff/debuff (see separate chart)

Area
1 target only
Small area
Large area

Resist...
Resisted by Will
Resisted by Evasion
Resisted by other skill
Cannot be resisted

*The Spirit cost will be determined by playtesting and added later.


Note that unless a character has the relevant casting skill as a side or core skill slot they cannot use that skill to customise spells. This option is only available to those who spend skill slots on casting.

For those who do make the investment, the skills are well worth it. For example, a skill slot spent on Touches gives a character the ability to lay about with his bare hands setting off bursts of fire, chilling ice clouds and electrical discharges. He can vary the strength of each attack depending on the size of the enemy, and add all manner of glamours to his handiwork. This level of versatility is earned through years of training and a deep understanding of the magical arts. The casting skills most often used for Strike Magic are:

Darts: Ranged magic attacks that come from the caster's hand and fly toward the target, opposed by Evasion. Point cost scales with range and damage. Metamagic adds extra energy types or multiple targets.

Ruptures: Ranged magic attacks called to manifest inside the target and burst out of their body, opposed by Will. Point cost scales with range and damage. Metamagic adds extra energy types or multiple targets.

Touches: Melee magic attacks. The caster lays his hands on the target, opposed by Evasion, and calls forth the destructive power. Costs less Spirit than ranged attacks; scales with damage only. Metamagic adds extra energy types.

Blasts: Area of effect attacks. The caster manifests a field of destruction, opposed by various skills (depending on the particular spell). Very high Spirit cost; scales with damage, size, shape, and method of opposing. Metamagic allows sculpting the blast, sustaining the blast for multiple rounds, exempting allies from the blast, and adding extra energy types.

By dedicating skill slots to one or more of these groups a caster can quickly become known as a lethal tool of war. Strike spells of all kinds have little purpose beyond lifting or breaking sieges, wrecking townlands and harvesting enemy battalions.

Individual Spells: For those without the time or patience it takes to master strike magic, individual spells can be learned without spending skill slots. A character who knows only a few individual spells might have picked one up from a grandparent, a magical text, or from a traveler willing to share knowledge in exchange for hospitality.

Individual spells must be selected from the lists of pre-made spells [chart forthcoming]. Custom spells can only be learned through in-game tutelage from other characters or by finding magical texts during a journey.

Individual spells do not require skill slots, but they are bought with XP just like gear. Once a spell has been learned it can be used an unlimited amount of times. Each time it is cast, the caster must pay the relevant Spirit cost (determined by the particular spell). The variables of the spell (range, damage, energy type, etc.) are fixed and cannot be tweaked in any way; the character does not know how to redesign the spell to change these factors. However, if the caster has any mystic feats that modify casting, these can be applied normally.

When the spell is cast the caster must roll the relevant skill to determine how hard it is to resist the effect. Add the dice roll and any modifiers; the total is the number the target(s) must beat on their Will or Evasion roll to avoid damage.

If a caster has purchased an individual spell and later dedicates a skill slot to the relevant casting skill, the individual spell's p-value is reduced to zero (effectively, it no longer counts against the caster's p-value). From then on the caster can customise the spell as desired because the caster now understands the workings of that type of magic.

Learning individual spells rather than casting skills has a number of advantages. It is an easy way for a warrior to pick up a little emergency backup magic without wasting a skill slot. Dedicated casters who want to spend many skill slots on Astral skills or Mystic feats, or specialise in one type of magic, can buy individual spells from outside their areas of specialty. The Spirit cost of the individual spells is the same either way, but learning them individually allows somewhat more breadth.

Of course, the usefulness of such spells is limited without a high casting skill, and there is no way to customise the individual spells. Even if a character has cast Ice Grip 1,000 times he cannot substitute fire for ice without making Touches at least a side skill.


SUPPORT MAGIC
Support magic is a wider group of combat magics, one which is designed with the behind-the-lines caster in mind. Many support spells are immensely destructive, but they serve as indirect ways of damaging the enemy: strengthening friendly forces, weakening enemy forces, or sending conjured beasts to do the fighting for you. If a caster is using magic to influence a fight but not slinging spells like weapons, they are using support magic.

Like strike magic, support magic uses a variety of casting skills and can be mastered through those skills or picked up in the form of individual spells.

Support spells can also be customised by those who have the relevant skill as a side or core skill. [effect/spirit cost chart forthcoming]

Obstacles: The caster manifests substances that hamper enemy movement, or twist existing terrain to do so. Overcoming or bypassing the obstacles may require a number of different skills (often Athletics), and the difficulty is based on the caster's Obstacles casting roll. Spirit cost scales with the size of the obstacle and how many rolls enemies must use to get over/through it. Metamagic may allow the obstacles to take on a mind of their own.

Charms: The caster charms enemies or allies to receive penalties or bonuses on certain rolls. Opposed by Will. Spirit cost scales with duration, number of targets, how big the bonus/penalty is, and what types of rolls it affects.

Enchantments: The caster captures the mind of an enemy, altering its behaviour in some way. Opposed by Will. Effects can include sleep, fear, confusion, spastic behaviour, forgetfulness, idiocy, suggestibility, rage, changed moral outlook, bitter sadness, or even complete obedience to the caster. Spirit cost scales with duration, type of effect, and number of targets.

Illusions: The caster creates illusory images and sensations to trick enemies, opposed by Will. Spirit cost scales with duration and number of senses fooled.

Summoning: The caster conjures spirits or beasts in bonded servitude. Summoning spells are not directly resisted, though enemies can attack the summoned being. The being's power level is adjusted by the caster's Summoning roll. Spirit cost scales with duration, creature type, and creature loyalty.


UTILITY MAGIC
Section to be completed later. This is where you will find spells that do nifty non-combat things. Movement (levitation, teleportation, etc.) will be one of the casting skills involved; the others haven't been decided yet.


HEALING MAGIC
Healing magic skills:

Refresh: This skill is used to restore Breath to a patient. The magician must lay his hands on the patien's body and the spirit cost is based on how many points of Breath must be restored. The patient's armour value (if any) is subtracted from the total healing and the remainder is added to the patient's remaining Breath score, one point per round. Higher per-round rates are costly; Refresh spells are best done out of battle and after removing armour. Refresh spells do not remove injuries.

Renew: This skill is used to immediately resotre large amounts of Breath to a patient. Immensely costly, Renew spells are still reduced by the patient's armour value, but the remaining healing is delivered to the patient all at once.

Remake: Remake is used to cast spells that remove injuries. These spells close wounds, join broken bones, mend torn muscle and restore the inner workings of the body. Spells to banish disease and poison also fall into this category. Spell cost varies widely with the type of injury being treated, but al Remaking spells have one thing in common: length. because these spells must physically and carefully remake the body, they typically involve ceremonies at least an hour long.

Resurrection: Resurrection magic has a mighty reputation, at one time both sacred and terrible. Under the right circumstances Resurrection spells can return the deceased to life, but they may well twist the patient into an undead fiend instead. Very costly; use with caution.


LEARNING MAGIC
Section to be completed later. This will cover rules for learning individual spells in-game.


See post 10 for the rest of the game design!

Citizen Joe
2008-06-06, 12:50 PM
I have some criticisms or hazards that you might be stumbling into.

1) As a PbP game, it is virtual. Dice are a hold over from board games/live RPG's. Some people like to roll dice just because they are fidgeting or like the sound it makes. This won't happen online and presumably there will be some sort of PbP roller mechanism. Being computer generated, the dice do not need to conform to the standard dice.

2) Ping times make and break a PbP game. By ping time, I mean the time it takes for a person to respond to a stimulus. Due to people's schedules you must allow at least 24 hours and typically 72 hours for a response. If each step of a event resolution requires confirmation before the next step can proceed then the combined ping times become atrocious to the point that people get bored and quit the game. For example... GM says something happens then calls for initiative. After 3 days, everyone has presumably indicated their initiative. GM then announces the initiative order and players start responding... in turn... so day 6, player 1 announces his action and performs his action test. By day 9, the GM responds that it is successful or not. By day 12 the player replies with effect test (like damage). Day 15 the GM replies with the actual effects, like whether the goblin was killed or not. Then calls for the next person. Day 18, player 2 announces his action and test results, etc... Now this is a worst case scenario, but one round could easily take over a month to resolve with just basic combat, never mind rules queries. Instead, ignore the initiative system and everyone posts when they can... maybe a M-W-F schedule, or a tue-fri schedule... So on monday (at some time of the day) the GM posts results/events/whatever. The players have until a couple hours before the GM post deadline to get their actions in with their action tests and effect tests. If there are counter attacks or saves or anything along those lines, the GM rolls those and then posts all the results. One round of combat just takes 2-3 days (or 1 ping time) rather than 4 pings per character.

3) Don't call for dice rolls for knowledge checks and such, just roll them as needed. Since it is all being done by the online roller, it really doesn't matter who calls for the roll.

4) Combat is huge time killer for PbP. Avoid it as much as you can. Make task resolution fairly simple. One method of avoiding combat is by NOT awarding build points for killing stuff. If the players know that killing stuff is really just using up their resources, they are less likely to engage in combat.

elliott20
2008-06-06, 01:28 PM
My own PbP, spirits of the galaxy (my sci-fi variant of Spirits of the Century) went cold for precisely the reasons Citizen Joe mentioned. The system itself is much much leaner than most systems out there and even then it still suffered from it.

if I were to design a PbP game, I would have a very very VERY lean conflict resolution mechanic, with plenty of narrative control being handed to the player so that a player can give a more substantive response with each post and not get caught up in minutae.

one system I once wrote up for PbP went like this:

character sheet: create a character concept (in the fashion that you would for a TV show character). list 3 things that the character has to draw on,(friends, skills, resources) 1-2 big issues for him to resolve, an arch-nemisis, and a name. That's it.

then, each player takes turn framing a scene. (they name the scene purpose, whose involved, and what's the general gist of the scene)

when a conflict arises, people roll a 1d6, and if they want to call on their assets, they can put a +1 on the roll. (they can call on their assets 3 times before it runs out and they have to spend a scene recharging)

person who rolls the highest gets narrative control.

there were some more mechanics that dealt with killing major characters but that was the general gist of it.

Uncle Festy
2008-06-06, 04:09 PM
This looks interesting.
I'll keep watching.

Citizen Joe
2008-06-06, 08:47 PM
I also suggest more descriptive characters. So maybe give characters three core descriptive characteristics and then some minor characteristics as well. During test resolution (combat or whatever), if one of those descriptive characteristics applies then the character gets a bonus... either a straight bonus, extra dice, larger dice, whatever.

So, lets say someone makes a strong, tough, swordmaster. In combat, with a sword, he would get bonuses to his attack. Since he is strong, he'd get bonuses to his damage. Since he's tough, he would get bonuses to resisting damage. If he encounters a door, he could force it open with his strong characteristic.

Then perhaps he also has some minor attributes. Let's say nimble, charismatic and scarred. If applicable, you may gain a bonus from minor attributes once per encounter (as opposed to continuously with core characteristics). So he might be able to nimbly step aside once per encounter. Then after the battle, he might remove his shirt and flex his scarred body in a charismatic way to seduce the princess. In that case, he might get as many as 3 bonuses (charismatic, scarred and strong).

On the flip side, opponents may be able to use your characteristics against you. For example, targeting your scars to find a weak spot to avoid your toughness.

Personally, I'd use variable exploding dice for tests. So the standard would be a d6. On a 6 you reroll and add 6 to the result. Using exploding or open ended rolling means you don't need critical rules, if you get lucky you could get any arbitrarily large number. So you just pick a number that you consider a success.

The variable dice comes into play with your characteristics. While everyone basically gets a d6 for every test, core characteristics lets you roll another die in parallel. So if your characteristic die comes up success then you succeed, just like if your base die did. Characteristic dice can change from a d4 (weak characteristics) up to a d12 or more (again, you aren't restricted to stock dice with computer rollers). So advancing a character may involve improving the die for a characteristic or gaining more characteristics.

elliott20
2008-06-07, 08:16 PM
the bottom line is that, I think a good PbP system would actively encourage players to take more narrative control over the plot. that way, they get more bang for their each post.

I would suggest you figure out what the core conflict resolution mechanic is first. I think at this point, it's a good time to first consider the genre you want to go with.

Oslecamo
2008-06-07, 08:25 PM
I would go as far as saying to screw throw the grid system out the window. Grids are fun in RL where you can put miniatures and actually see all the pieces at once.

In a play by post this becomes much harder as there's no real grid, and players constantly need to go check older posts to see where everything is, and all of that is anoying.

elliott20
2008-06-09, 09:54 AM
just re-read the OP's rules again. some feedback:

you don't want to do turn-by-turn combat. That's good. This will keep dice rolling down to a minimum. drawbacks of this approach though is that your skill list will have to be more general than specific. (I mean, you're not going to use JUST your dagger skills for an ENTIRE encounter, are you?) This means that you should keep combat more abstract and combat skills should be of a more general sort.

How do you want to do the actual combat, by the way? While I understand you don't want to do actual rounds, do you want to handle entire encounters with a single dice roll (with options to modify the roll after) or would you rather do "exchanges"?

basically, you'll need skills to cover:

combat
social interaction
rogue-like skills
knowledge based skills
magic/paranormal stuff

how much you want to drill down on each one depends entirely on how detailed you want each "round" to be. if you want each post from each player to basically address the encounter, you'll want to keep all of that very general. the more you drill down, the more specific the player must be when they talk about what they do, the more they have to post to get through the encounter.

I also recommend having a skill to reflect your wealth/resources. this way instead of trying to keep track of all your random coinage and all that, you just have a single skill that you roll. makes book keeping a little easier.

and then on top of that, I would recommend you give players a couple "write in your own trait" mechanic that they can do to make their character look and smell more like them. maybe give them some kind of mechanic where they can use one of these traits to envoke some kind of power as long as they work it into the narrative somehow. this will encourage them to really put some thought into their RPing. (they could be as simple as a bonus to a roll, a re-roll attempt, something else along those lines)

Another_Poet
2008-06-10, 10:07 AM
Hi guys. Thanks for the ideas so far. In the next 1 - 2 days I will have the character generation section up, but first I wanted to discuss some of the ideas raised above.

1) Short Ping Time. Yes, a definite must. I am trying to resolve this three different ways:

+No initiative.

+Rules for how the DM takes over characters and forces them to act. (Specifically, each DM should set a window at the beginning of the campaign, probably 24 hours in most cases. Anyone to doesn't take their action within that window is NPC'd that round. For fairness, the DM always takes mean on these rolls.)

+Short combat. I think that I will accomplish this partly by giving monsters lower Breath scores (hit points) than PCs, and partly by making combat a little more brutal. This has the advantage of making players more cautious about combat (thus less likely to engage in it in the first place). I feel okay about making combat more dangerous because in PbP getting a negative Breath score results in injury rather than death. So it will seriously endanger a PC but not be a show-stopper.

2) More narrative control. A few of you brought this up, mentioning how PC's should be able to affect plot directly without rolling, sort of an Action Point system. I want to remain open to this idea but I have to say, right off the bat, I'm not sure how I feel about it.

This is largely because I as a PC have never played under such a system, and I do enjoy using my character's skills to overcome challenges just as much as I love telling a good story. Elliott20 mentioned a rules-light system based entirely on shared storytelling, which sounds like a very different system than what I am trying to build here. I want to offer DM's the ability to design worlds and plots, and PC's the chance to overcome the most fiendish obstacles the DM can put in front of them. If you guys feel strongly that a plot-sharing or action point type system can work with that goal, then convince me; I'm absolutely listening. (Well, reading.) Right now I remain unconvinced.

3) What dice? It was mentioned that PbP need not use number generators based on real dice. I think this is a good point, one which I totally overlooked. For now I'm going to keep with the 1d6, 2d6, 3d6 system one main reason:

So far nothing has come up that necessitates switching. By using numbers that that mirror real-world dice I have a few advantages. They are already built in to most PbP forums, are already familiar to gamers, and translate easily to a real-life game if an online group meets up in person.

However, I will keep in mind that if playtesting shows any problems with the d6 system we could just as easily roll d7's or d2's or d31's if we wanted to.

4) Character Concept Driven. CitizenJoe especially emphasised this. I haven't posted the char gen system yet but I think you'll be pleasantly surprised when I do. The only thing you need when you start play is your character's id, their core identity (plus as much fluff text/background story as you care to write). Everything else in character creation, which is done largely during game play, is based on this id. There are no classes, and only as many mechanically different races as the DM and players want in their world. Everything is customised based on the player's vision of who the character is, and much of this is done in game as challenges come up.

My hope is that by stretching char gen out over the first few weeks of gameplay, you not only have a quicker startup time (3 weeks of play instead of 3 weeks of waiting tio play) but you also get a lot more into your characters. There shouldn't be a moment 4 months later when you reread your backstory and say, "Shoot, my character is addicted to absynthe? I totally forgot I wrote that down!" Since you decided that over the course of play rather than in a spur of the moment decision, it should stick in your mind better.

That's the thoery anyway. More to come, and feel free to keep discussing...

Another_Poet
2008-06-11, 03:40 PM
ACTUAL GAME DESIGN PART II:

Feats


MARTIAL FEATS
Melee Weapons:

Frenzy I
You can use one action to make two melee attacks against a single target, splitting your attack roll evenly between the two. You can do this once per round.

Frenzy II
You can use Frenzy I twice per round. Prereq: Frenzy I

Frenzy III
You can use Frenzy I three times per round. Prereqs: Frenzy I and II.

Flurry of Death
You can use one action to make two melee attacks, making a separate full attack roll for each of the two. You can do this once per round. Prereqs: Frenzy I, II and III.

Mighty Stroke I
You can take a penalty on an attack roll and gain a bonus on the damage roll for that attack. For every 2 points deducted from attaxck, add 1 point to damage. You cannot take more than 2 from a 1d6 attack, more than 4 from a 2d6 attack, or more than 6 from a 3d6 attack. If you take multiple attacks with a single action, the penalties and bonuses apply to all attacks made during that action.

Mighty Stroke II
As Mighty Stroke I, but there is no limit on how many points you can deduct from an attack roll. Prereq: Mighty Stoke I.

Measured Stroke I
By spending one action to take careful aim, you can add +1d6 to an attack roll on your next action.

Measured Stroke II
By spending a full round (3 actions) taking careful aim you can double an attack roll on your next action.

Bind-fighting
You Hold Up to attack the next enemy who attacks you, but spend one extra action. When you are attacked, you roll your held attack(s) and add a +2 bonus to each one.

Ranged Weapons:

Overload I
As Frenzy I, but for ranged attacks. Can only be used with weapons capable of being loaded with multiple ammunition at once.

Overload II
As Overload I, but can be used twice per round. Prereq: Overload I.

Overload III
As Overload I, but can be used three times per round. This feat does not reduce reloading time, and may not work with slow-to-reload weapons. Prereq: Overload I and II.

Rain of Death
As Flurry of Death, but for ranged weapons. Can only be used with weapons capable of being loaded with multiple ammunition at once. Prereq: Overload I, II and III.

Mighty Shot I
As Mighty Stroke I, but for ranged weapons. Works only for bows, which can be “overdrawn” for greater power.

Mighty Shot II.
As Mighty Shot I, but there is no limit on how many points you can deduct from an attack roll. Prereq: Mighty Shot I.

Snipe I
As Measured Stroke I, but for ranged weapons.

Snipe II
As Measured Stroke II, but for ranged weapons.

Stockfighting
You can use the stock or bayonet of your ranged weapon to make a melee attack using your ranged skill instead of your Basic Weapons skill. No enchantments or special qualities on the ranged weapon apply to the stock. Bows cannot be used for this (only crossbows and guns).

General:

Final Purpose
When you are dropped by an enemy (wounded or dead) you may say a single short sentence or issue a final loud cry. This may be used to warn allies, etc.

Strongfall I
When you are dropped by an enemy (wounded or dead) you may make a single final attack before going down. Use half your attack rolls. Prereq: Final Purpose.

Strongfall II
As Strongfall I but you can use your full attack roll. Prereqs: Final Purpose, Strongfall I.

Stealth Strike
You can make a Stealth roll along with your attack roll, and add one sixth of the result to your damage roll. This can only be used against enemies who are unaware of you.

Roaring Strike
You can make an Intimidate roll along with your attack roll, and add one sixth of the result to your damage roll. This can only be used against enemies who are aware of you.

Weak Spot
You can make a Perception roll along with your attack roll, adding half the result to your attack roll. This can be done only when striking a foe who has been successfully struck by yourself or another ally in the same round.

Armour-Wrecker
You can deal damage to an enemy’s armour on purpose. You make the attack and damage roll as normal, but the enemy takes no Breath damage; instead, every three points of damage reduces their armour value by 1.

Lightfoot
You can make an Acrobatics roll along with an Evasion roll, adding one sixth of the result to your Evasion roll. This uses one action.


MYSTIC FEATS

Mystic Feats

Light Body I
You can spend 10 spirit points to gain a +1 on Evasion against one attack. This must be declared at the beginning of a round when you roll Evasion.

Light Body II
As Light Body I, but you can spend 20 spirit points to gain a +2 on Evasion against one attack, or 20 spirit points to gain a +1 on Evasion against two attacks. Prereq: Light Body I.

Still Mind I
You can spend 10 spirit points to gain a +1 on Will against one effect. This must be declared at the beginning of a round when you roll Evasion.

Still Mind II
As Still Mind I, but you can spend 20 spirit points to gain a +2 on Will against one effect, or 20 spirit points to gain a +1 on Will against two effects. Prereq: Light Body I.

Energy Hands I
You can spend 10 spirit points to gain a +1 on one action’s worth of Unarmed attacks.

Energy Hands II
As Energy Hands I, but you can spend 20 spirit points to gain a +2 on one action’s worth of Unarmed attacks or 20 spirit points to gain a +1 on attacks and damage for one action’s worth of Unarmed attacks. Prereq: Energy Hands I.

Mystic Spell I
You can spend 10 spirit points to gain a +1 on any one Casting roll.

Mystic Spell II
As Mystic Spell I, but you can spend 20 spirit points to gain a +2 on one Casting roll or 20 spiit points to gain a +1 on a Casting roll and on the damage that casting inflicts. Prereq: Mystic Spell I.

Blast Art I (yeah we really need naming help)
You can use Blast spells to cover a cone-shaped area starting on a square adjacent to your own square. The radius is twice the radius of your normal blast spell and the cone is 45-degrees.

Blast Art II
You can use Blast spells to cover a single line of squares starting on a square adjacent to your own. The line must be orthagonal or 45-degrees. The line is four times as long as your normal blast radius. Prereq: Blast Art I

Sudden Focus
You an spend 40 spirit points to gain a +1 on any single roll, no more than once per round.

Burning Life I
You can spend spirit points to instantly regain Breath. For every 40 spirit spoints your remaining Breath increases by 1. This cannot increase your Breath beyond its maximum.

Burning Life II
As Burning Life I, but for every 50 spirit points you spend you can increase your Breath 1 point beyond its maximum. This cannot increase your breath beyond 150% its normal maximum. This requires a full round to accomplish (no matter how many points you increase your Breath by). This extra Breath depletes at the same rate that Breath normally replenishes. Prereq: Burning Life I.

Spent Life I
You can expend Breath to regain Spirit points. For each point of Breath you spend, your remaining spirit points increase by 40. This cannot increase your spirit points beyond their normal maximum nor decrease your Breath below 1.

Spent Life II
As Spent Life I, but you can now increase your spirit points up to 150% beyond their normal maximum and you can deplete your Breath below 1. Doing this reqires a full round to accomplish, and allows you to stay conscious for 1 additional action. You cannot use this action for any purpose that does not require spirit points; essentially you are sacrificing your body to cast a final spell. Once you have taken this final action you collapse and take wounds normal; if you are hit at any point before completing your action, you collapse and take wounds as normal and do not get your extra action. Prereq: Spent Life I.

Combat ***UPDATED WITH INFO ON ACTIONS, ROUNDS, and TOTAL DEFENCE!***

ROUNDS, INITIATIVE, and ACTIONS
In PbP there is no initiative. Actions occur in the order in which they are posted. However, there are some guidelines that keep order in combat.

A typical combat would start as the PCs find themselves facing some dire enemy. If the PCs have set up and ambush or otherwise gotten the upper hand, the DM will normally let them post their actions before posting the enemy actions. If the enemies are the ones who got the jump on the PCs, the DM might post all of their actions first. In most combats, the DM will post various enemy actions throughout the combat round.

Combat is divided into rounds. During each round, each PC can take up to three actions. Each action can be used to move, attack with a weapon, cast a spell, or do any number of other things. Characters never get more than three actions, but they can purchase feats that let them squeeze more use out of a single action.

Players can use all three actions in one post, or they can save their actions to use throughout the round in multiple posts. But beware! When the DM posts "/round" all unused actions are lost. A player can usually tell when the round is coming to a close, because all or most of the enemies and other players have taken at least one action. A wise player finds a balance between waiting to see how the fight develops and acting quickly to get the most time in the spotlight.



EVASION AND TOTAL DEFENCE

Each round every character rolls Evasion, or takes mean on Evasion; this does not use up one of their three actions. If the player doesn't roll it the DM assumes they take mean.

Each hit that you take during a round reduces your Evasion roll by 1. It cannot drop below 1, ever. These penalties last until you roll Evasion at the beginning of the next round.

If you do not like your Evasion score you can spend actions to go on Total Defence. Spend one of your three actions and you can reroll your Evasion with a +1 bonus. Spend two actions and reroll it with a +2. Spend all three of your actions and you can do nothing but guard yourself, rerolling Evasion with a +3 bonus. (You can take mean on your reroll if you want.) The only catch is that you have to declare Total Defence as your first action(s) for the round - you may not take other actions and then go on Total Defence.



HOLDING UP

You can withhold one (or more) of your actions and designate a condition under which you will use it. For instance, “I’ll hold one of my actions and use it to attack the next person who attacks me. Here’s my attack roll in case it’s needed.”

You can hold one, two or all three actions and set the conditions under which you will take them. If the conditions are not met before the round ends, you lose the unused actions.



POST RATE AND PLAYER ADVANTAGE

During recruiting the DM should tell players the approximate pacing of the game--that is, how often players are expected to post. This pacing establishes how much time and attention players must give the game, and how often they must check the thread in which the game is happening.

Within the range of the pacing, however, frequent posters have a slight combat advantage over infrequent posters. By posting first in a combat round, a player can guide party tactics (e.g. running into an area the mage would otherwise blast, or charming a monster that might otherwise be sword-fodder). Likewise, frequent posters are more likely to split up their actions into multiple posts, observing how combat is going and making decisions based on their surroundings.

This advantage for frequent posters is intentional and is built into the system. The characters of frequent posters come off as more alert and responsive than other characters. This is the reward a player gets for giving extra time and attention to a game.

This advantage should never be overwhelming; all players in a one-post-per-week campaign have the same three actions to work with, even if one of them looks at the thread seven days in a row. There is no advantage to posting more often than the DM's requested pacing, because the DM will not end the combat round (or advance the plot) until the majority of players have used the majority of their actions. But the attentive poster does earn a small tactical advantage.

This means that it is important to be realistic when signing up for a PbP game. If the DM expects three posts per week and you only check in once per week, you will find that you occasionally lose actions in combat. If the DM expects one post per week and you skip a week, you'll find the same thing.

If you are keeping to the agreed upon posting pace and find yourself losing actions anyway, you should talk to your DM and ask why the pacing has changed (and more importantly, whether the pacing is going to return to normal or stay changed for the long-term). Usually this sort of problem is accidental and easily remedied.

More basics of the combat system, coming soon..


Breath, Death, and Healing

Your character's Breath score may be depleted by any number of threats - enemies, traps, mishaps, or the natural dangers of rugged terrain. Many forms of damage are reduced by your armour value, but even with that safeguard there will be times you find yourself low on Breath. This section details the means of recovering Breath and, perhaps most importantly, what happens when you are completely out of Breath.


WHAT BREATH IS
Breath is a character's energy store, their vigour and stamina. As long as a character has Breath, they are shrugging off the weapon blows and other threats that connect with them. A character who is hit with a spear for 4 points of Breath damage has not been gored or stabbed with the spear, but they'll probably have a welt underneath the part of their armour that absorbed the blow.

As a day drags on, the exertion of combat and exploration gets to a character. The lower their Breath, the less energy they have left to keep surviving such challenges. Only when they run out of Breath do they take serious wounds.


RECOVERING BREATH
There are three ways of recovering breath: rest, magic, or mystic feats.

Rest
Rest is something all characters need. When a character can sit down somewhere and relax, she regains Breath at a rate of 2 points per hour. (It is possible to raise this rate through Mystic feats.) In order for this to work the character must be able to rest somewhere reasonably safe, and not be required to move around much or do anything strenuous or stressful. Characters do not necessarily need to eat or nap to rest, but anyone suffering from severe hunger, thirst or sleep deprivation will be unable to regain Breath points this way.

Characters engaged in light chores, guard duty, a gentle walk, or similar physical activities can still regain Breath, but at a lower rate of 1 point per hour.

Rest, like all forms of Breath recovery, is unable to raise a character's Breath score above its maximum (unless they have some feat allowing otherwise).

There is a limit to the power of rest! No character can regain more than twice their Breath score from rest without getting a full night's sleep. For example, a thief with a Breath score of 6 can recover up to 12 Breath points by resting. After that, no amount of rest will recover any more Breath until the thief manages to get a good, full sleep.

Magic
There are many spells and ceremonies that invigourate and energise the body, and these are often employed to refresh warriors between sorties. The Refresh spells are the most basic form of medicinal magic, recover various amounts of Breath much quicker than rest does (measured in points per round, rather than points per hour), but these spells have drawbacks. First of all, Breath regained by Refresh spells is reduced by the target's armour value just like damage often is. When time allows, it is therefore best best to remove an ally's armour before applying a Refresh spell to them. Secondly, Refresh spells that raise Breath faster than 1 point per round are costly to learn and to cast. Because of these limitations, magic healing is usually reserved for after a battle is over, and is not done in the midst of a melee. [See the magic section on page 1 for the new casting skill groups Refresh, Renew, Remake and Resurrect.]

Magic, like all forms of Breath recovery, is unable to raise a character's Breath score above its maximum (unless they have some feat allowing otherwise).

Mystic Feats
There are several Mystic feats that are designed to allow a character to imediately recover a small portion of Breath. This does not involve casting a spell and is not affected by armour; it represents a character's ability to draw on their inner strength to keep themselves moving. This could involve meditative training, an adrenaline rush, or a natural determination; in any case, it is often the deciding factor between life and death in combat.

However, these feats deplete vastly more Spirit points than casting a simple Refresh spell. They are truly emergency techniques that are best saved for dire circumstances.

In general these feats do not allow a character to exceed their maximum Breath score, but there are feats that give exceptions to this.


ZERO BREATH: EXHAUSTION
When a character's Breath score reaches zero, that character is exhausted. An exhausted character halves all dice rolls, and cannot use abilities that allow extra attacks, spells, or movement per action.

Nonetheless, the character is still up and awake, and is much better off than a wounded character. Character can spend build points or XP to widen their "exhaustion window" in 1 point increments. For example, a normal character is exhausted at 0 Breath and wounded at -1 Breath, but if they widened their window by 3 points would be merely exhausted from 0 to -3 Breath and would only become injured at -4 Breath.

The exhaustion window can never be widened by more than half a character's maximum Breath score. Thus, a character with a Breath score of 6 can widen exhaustion down to -3, while a character with a Breath score of 8 can widen it down to -4.

Once a character becomes exhausted, they remain exhausted until they meet two conditions:

1) Their Breath score rises out of their exhaustion window, and
2) They receive magical healing or rest for one hour or more.

Neither one of these conditions on its own will ease their exhaustion; both conditions must be met.


INJURY AND NEGATIVE BREATH
When a character's Breath score drops below their exhaustion window they become injured. This almost always means they drop unconscious, but may have other ramifications as well - possibly even death. By default injury starts at -1 Breath, but if the exhaustion window is widened it starts lower.

When a character is injured, look at their current Breath score and compare to the table below to find the result.

Points Below Exhaustion...........Injury........Breath Recovered
1-3 (default -1 to -3)................Type 1.......1d6
4-5 (default -4 to -5)................Type 2.......1d6
6-x (default -6 to x).................Type 3.......1d6
below x...................................Lethal........ ..1d6

"Points below exhaustion" refers to exactly that: how many points your Breath has fallen below your exhaustion window. The default value is given in parentheses - this is the value if you have not widened your exahustion window.

The variable "x" is your maximum Breath score with a minus sign in front of it. So if you have a max breath of 7, x is -7.

"Breath recovered" refers to how much Breath you regain when you take the injury. Breath is always regained upon being injured. This is to reduce compound injuries and make the game less lethal. This Breath recovery is not enough, on its own, for your character to get back up and into the fight; it simply provides a small buffer against further injury, should your enemies choose to continue harrying you when you fall.

The "Injury" type refers to what sorts of medical complications you incur from your injury. These complications may present hurdles to patching you up, or may even give you penalties that stay with you after you're healed. The injury types can each involve various complications:

Type 1: Minor. On a d6:
1.......Unconscious plus concussion
2-5....Unconscious (only)
6.......Exhausted rather than Injured

Type 2: Urgent. On 2d6:
2.......Unconscious plus sprain
3-8....Unconscious plus severe bleeding
9-10...Unconscious plus cracked ribs
11......Unconscious plus internal bleeding
12......Unconscious plus concussion


Type 3: Dire. On a d6:
1-2.....Unconscious plus gangrene risk
3........Eye injury
4-5.....Head trauma
6........Tailbone injury

Complications explained alphabetically:

Concussions halve all rolls made for 1 hour after being woken up. Additionally, the character suffers short-term memory loss (forgetting some, but not all things that happened in the last 24 hours).

Cracked ribs are extremely painful, but not impossible to live with. For 1 week, half movement and halve all Athletics and Acrobatics checks.

Eye Injuries leave a character mostly blinded for 2 days. On the first day they can sense nothing but the presence or absence of light, cannot move around without guidance, and cannot succeed on any physical skill roll; on the second day they can make out shapes well enough to move at half-speed and all physical rolls are halved.

Head trauma is more severe than a concussion and leaves a character addled for 3 days. On the first day they remain in a vegetative state, unconscious and unable to sense their surroundings or take any action. By the second day they wake up but experience extreme head pain if they try to move, limiting them to one yard per action. On the third day they can move normally, but on both the second and third days they halve all mental rolls (casting, knowledge, etc.).

Internal bleeding is a dangerous condition, but one which can be cured with bed rest. For three days, the character loses 1 Breath per hour when trying to walk or perform light chores, and 2 Breath per hour when performing any strenuous activity.

Gangrene risk represents an infected wound, but one which has not yet caused any tissue death. The character has 1 week in which to remove the infection, or else the wound will become gangrenous (see below).

Gangrenous describes infected wounds that have gone on to kill healthy tissue around them. Essentially, the area around the wound is dead and decomposing. The dead tissue must be cut away. If done the first day, this can be accomplished without removing the limb by a Field Medicine check equal to or higher than the attack roll that inflicted the wound. If this check fails or is not made in time, the entire limb must be amputated (treat as lost limb, below). There can be no rety on this check.

Lost limbs are a major disability for adventurers. In the cast of a leg, walking is impossible without a crutch or prosthetic of some sort, and even then the characters moves at half their normal movement. Additionally, they cannot make any Athletics or Acrobatics checks that involve moving the lower body. For arms, Athletics and Acrobatics checks involving the upper body are halved, and only one hand remains to use weapons, shields, or other items.

Severe bleeding must be stitched up or otherwise staunched, raising the Field Medicine target number by 2.

Sprains disable the relevant limb for 1 day. If to either leg: half movement, halve all Athletics and Acrobatics checks. If to either arm: halve all rolls made involving that arm, or halve shield bonus from shield used by that arm.

Tailbone injuries leave a character paralysed from the waist down for 1 hour (their spine is not broken, but they cannot move their body through the pain). Additionally, they cannot move more than 1 yard per action for the rest of the day, and have half movement the whole next day.

Unconsciousness is the same as being "knocked out", The character is in a deep sleep, and will wake up within an hour (or can be woken up early with smelling salts, a Field Medicine roll, or a bucket of cold water) unless another complication specifies otherwise.

Lethal:Lethal injuries are likely to kill a character. Lethal injuries can be described in almost any way: a gash through the neck and throat, a knife to the heart, evisceration, a cloven skull, etc. No matter the form of the injury the mechanics for treating it are the same.

Once your character takes a lethal injury, roll your Breath recover and see if it brings your Breath score above x If it does not, you have only one round to live; if not treated by then you die.

If it does raise your Breath score above x, you lose 1 point of Breath per round until you reach x. When you fall below x you die. You do not incur additional wounds for losing these points, although you can incur additional wounds if you are attacked again.

Treating a character who is dying of a lethal wound involves a successful Field Medicine roll. The target number for this roll is equal to the attack roll that inflicted the wound, plus 1 for every round that has elapsed since the wound was inflicted.

Once the wound is treated, the character remains unconscious for at least one full day and night. Their injury will heal on its own, but slowly; it takes one week plus 2 days per round that elapsed between receiving the injury and being treated. During this time the character cannot recover Breath through rest and her maximum Beath is reduced to half its usual maximum.

Each day, the character must receive a successful Field Medicine roll. The target for this roll is the same as the target for the original Field Medicine roll to treat the wound. If this roll fails, one more day is added to the total recovery time the character needs.

Each time the character gets up and walks around or physically exerts herself before the injury is healed, one more day is added to the total recovery time.

This entire process can be bypassed with an appropriate Remake spell, which will close the wound and leave the character healthy right away.


DEATH AND RESURRECTION
When a character dies, they are done. They are not normally going to come back by any means.

Many wizards have researched ways around mortality, but results have been spotty at best. The spells associated with the Resurrection casting skill represent their best efforts, but these spells are expensive and often futile.

When a Resurrection spell is used, the character will return to life only if they have some powerful drive to accomplish something in the world. Not all characters have such a drive, even if they enjoyed life or had goals in life. An ardorous dedication to some person, place or cause is the most basic prerequisite to resurrection.

Additionally, divine favour must be sought. If the deities are not petitioned and a case is not made for the person's merit, the soul wil not be returned.

If these preconditions are met the resurrection spell has a chance of succeeding. However, there is also a chance of the spell going awry. In this event the person is reanimated but not restored fully to life. They become one of the various forms of undead, often with a tormented mind and fearsome powers. Many of the world's greatest evils were created through humankind's well-intentioned, but ultimately selfish desire to beat death.

Once a person is turned into an undead there is no way to restore them to proper life, although it is still possible to break the curse on them and allow their spirit to go to rest.


ENEMIES AND FALLEN ALLIES
It is generally considered cruel and even evil to strike a wounded, fallen soldier. More to the point, it's bad tactics: those sword strokes are better spent on enemies who are still up and fighting. Even the twisted monsters of the world can understsnd this.

Therefore, when an ally goes down in battle you can usually expect that they will receive no further wounds until the battle is over. There are exceptions, of course. Some attacks against valid targets will hit a fallen target as well (such as a Blast spell or a charging sickle-chariot, both of which cut across a battlefield indiscriminately). In such cases, little consideration is given to the wounded who get in the way.

There are a few types of enemies who will continue to attack fallen, injured targets. Usually such enemies are mentally deranged or completely mindless. Examples would include some undead, rabid animals, and certain fiendish spirits. Even these monsters, however, may save their meal or macabre sport till after decisively ending a battle.

If an entire party of PCs is wiped out by enemies, they are likely to be left for dead. A few enemies (such as assassins) may systematically finish off the injured PC's one at a time before leaving. Others (such as formal armies) may well nurse the PCs back to health to take them prisoner. Prisoner treatment varies from army to army, but prisoners almost always receive second treatment after the army's own casualties are tended.

If the PCs are simply left for dead, their injuries play out as normal. Those who are merely unconscious will wake up within an hour and can set about tending their friends - if they were left any supplies with which to tend them.

Note: I expect there to be some pushback against having these injury charts and various types of injuries. I have my own doubts, since I think that stuff is fun in a one-shot but bogs down long campaigns. However, I've tries to arrange the charts to make it very likely to get Type I and very unlikely to get harsher wounds except in the most difficult battles. That's why you roll to recover Breath when you'e injured.

I'd like to try it out and see whether it adds flavour to the game. If it ruins the experience we can delete the charts and go with a more D&D type of thing (Up and fine or down and unconscious, no specific wounds).

Note also that all of the injuries can be removed with Remake spells.


Money


MONEY
In PbP, money is unrelated to your character’s power value. You gain power by finding magical gear (which usually can’t be bought in stores) and by spending XP to improve your skills. Many adventurers are actually rather cash-poor, bartering the valuables they find for food, lodging, and comfort. Coins, when found, are usually silver or copper and are used mainly for procuring luxuries or bribing the occasional official.

If you would like your character to be better off, you can purchase Wealth as a side or core skill. Wealth is rolled in circumstances where it's crucial to have more than just pocket money: to finance an expedition, bribe someone important or dress to fit in at aristocratic functions. Wealth can be a wonderful skill for campaigns that involve politics and diplomacy, but may not be useful in military or exploration campaigns. Ask your DM if you want to know how useful Wealth will be in your campaign.

Objects of Magical Power ***NEW!***

Magic Scrolls
A magic scroll typically contains the instructions and wording for a single spell. Using a scroll, anyone can cast that spell. When the spell is cast, the caster rolls the better of their own casting skill or the original scroll author’s casting skill. However, the scroll must be read and studied first.

Reading a scroll: A magic scroll can be read off the page like any other writing, as long as the reader knows the language it is written in.

Studying a scroll: Upon obtaining a new magic scroll, a person must study it for at least one hour before being able to use it properly. In some cases more study time is needed, usually only for very powerful spells or very unintelligent readers. Study time can only be reduced if the reader has a higher casting skill than the scroll’s author.

Using a scroll: Once a person has read and studied a magic scroll they can cast the spell it contains. To do so they hold up the scroll and read the words from it out loud, performing any actions necessary to cast the spell. If the spell on the scroll would normaly take one or two actions to cast, it takes two or three actions respectively; if it normally takes three actions or longer to cast it instead takes twice as long. The scroll-reader must also pay the Spirit cost of the spell to cast it, unless they are using an imbued scroll (see below).

A magic scroll can be used over and over again. It does not have to be re-studied between castings.

Imbued Scrolls: Some magic scrolls are “imbued” with the Spirit cost of the spell they contain. Such a scroll offers a single free casting. As the spell is cast, the energy in the magic scroll is released, which has a 45% chance of reducing the scroll to tatters. If the scroll survives it can be used over and over like a normal scroll, but the caster must pay the Spirit cost for all future castings.

Learning spells: There will be, but is not yet a mechanic for permanently learning a spell from a magic scroll. The spell will then follow the “single spells” rules in the Casting Skill section.

Multiple spells: Occasionally a magic scroll contains more than one spell. Only one can be used at a time (i.e., each one requires separate actions to cast) and each one must be studied individually before use. The spells can be in the same or different languages, and a caster can study and cast one spell without studying the others. Imbued scrolls with multiple spells may be imbued for one, several or all of the spells. If an imbued scroll destroys itself during casting, all spells it contains go to tatters (not just the one being cast).

Crafting: There will be, but is not yet a mechanic for crafting magical scrolls.

Availability: Magic scrolls are rare enough that they cannot be purchased. Correctly formulating a spell to be cast by others with no hands-on training is difficult, there are more fake magic scrolls than real ones. Characters might receive a scroll as a reward for a mission or find it amongst fallen enemies. New characters may not start with any scrolls.


Grammaries
Often simply called “spellbooks,” grammaries are books of magic formulae which contain instructions on the use of each spell. Each spell must be read and studied before it can be cast, just like a magic scroll; Essentially, the entire book functions like one big scroll, except grammaries are never imbued and may contain any number of spells. However, not all grammaries are accurate. When a spell is cast from a grammary for the first time the DM secretly rolls a d% to see if the spell is useless (spell fails) or dangerous (spell fails and caster is damaged). The odds of a spell being accurate vary from book to book.

Learning spells: There will be, but is not yet a mechanic for permanently learning a spell from a grammary. The spell will then follow the “single spells” rules in the Casting Skill section.

Crafting: There will be, but is not yet a mechanic for crafting grammaries.

Availability: Grammaries are exceedingly rare, and well-made ones even rarer. Most people who have one (and know what it is) will put down their lives to keep it. New characters may not start with grammaries.


Grimoires
Also often called “spellbooks,” grimoires are books of magic formulae which contain no clear instructions for use, and are often heavily encrypted. Generally, only the author of a grimoire can use it. If the author gives up the key to the encryption or if the encryption is somehow cracked, the grimoire can be used like a grammary, but study times are doubled.

Use of a grimoire while casting a spell can also impart various bonuses to the spell, as grimoires often contain tricks for making a spell more effective [see table that does not exist yet].

Learning spells: There will be, but is not yet a mechanic for permanently learning a spell from a grimoire. The spell will then follow the “single spells” rules in the Casting Skill section.

Crafting: There will be, but is not yet a mechanic for crafting grimoires.

Availability: Grimoires are no more common than accomplished wizards. Serious students of the arcane seek out grimoires and some are willing to kill to obtain them. New characters may not start with grimoires.


Wands
Wands are designed to cast one or more spells on command. Wands have their own Spirit scores and Casting skills and may have one or more mystic feats as well. Some wands are designed to be usable by anyone, while others require a skill roll of some sort to use. Activating a wand requires one action.

Wands deplete their Spirit points when casting just like any other caster does. When their spirit points run out, they may slowly regain them or there may be some special method of empowering the wand. Details vary from one wand to the next.

Learning spells: It is not possible to learn a spell from a wand.

Crafting: There will be, but is not yet a mechanic for crafting wands.

Availability: Wands are even more rare than magic scrolls, but are considered a badge of honour and a status symbol among wizards. Almost all arcanists endeavour to make or obtain a personal wand, and it is not uncommon for a teacher to impart a wand to a disciple as a final gift at the end of their training. New characters cannot begin with a wand.


Summoning Stones
A bit of a misnomer, summoning stones are not always actual stones. A wide variety of natural and man-made items are made into summoning stones: jewellery boxes, knives, skulls, sceptres, tarot decks and so forth. When a summoning stone is a non-natural item, it is always a finely crafted ceremonial piece.

Summoning stones are so named because a spirit is either invited or forced to live within them, and can (under certain circumstances) be called forth for good or ill. These stones are quite useful to summoners, because calling the spirit forth is much easier than conjuring one out of nowhere. Whether the spirit lives in the stone willingly makes a big difference in how the stone is used.

House Stones: These stones house willing spirits who have been politely invited to dwell there. The spirits may be great or small, wise or brash, even friendly or unfriendly. They often expect regular (and sometimes valuable) offerings from whoever tends the stone; if these offerings aren’t forthcoming they may depart or simply become uncooperative.

These spirits almost universally refuse to act as servants or be bossed around, and may well consider themselves superior to whoever holds the stone. They may play the part of advisors, friends, trusted partners or even deities. They can be quite useful in battle, but on their own terms.

Bound Stones: These stones house unwilling servants who have been conjured and forced inside. They are essentially prisoners and slaves. These spirits are bound to do what the owner of the stone tells them, though they may try to subvert orders or get around them in circuitous ways. Making Bound Stones is considered a heinous act by many magicians and priests, and just owning one may be enough to be rejected from many magic societies.

Spirits from Bound Stones will continuously try to break free, and need to be intimidated or beaten into submission on a regular basis. If one does break free, it will often slaughter its former master (and sometimes others in the area). Other times it will simply vanish.

Activation and Usefulness: Stones of either type often have physical characteristics that indicate the nature of the spirit within (a red stone for a fire spirit, a small strongbox for a prosperity spirit, etc.). The spirit can be asked to come out with an Invoking roll (house stone) or ordered out with a Binding roll (bound stone) and then acts like a normal summoned spirit (see the Summoning Spirits section). Either method takes two actions and costs zero Spirit.

Crafting: Many summoning stones occur naturally, or form over time as a spirit takes interest in some human activity. However, there will be a mechanic for preparing summoning stones. Once a summoning stone is prepared it can be vested with a spirit through ceremony (house stone) or a Binding roll (bound stone).

Availability: Summoning stones are more common than people think, but most are naturally occurring house stones whose inhabitants depart if disturbed. Building trust with a voluntary spirit takes time and effort. New characters may start with a weak house stone if they pay for it with build points; they may not start with a bound stone.

Another_Poet
2008-06-12, 01:24 PM
*bump* two new sections in the first post if anyone wants to comment/critique...

Citizen Joe
2008-06-12, 03:10 PM
That part about taking flaws to get more build points really sticks in my craw. In life you don't get to pick your crippling accidents and a gimp leg is never going to inherently give you better aim. I suggest something like this...

IF you feel you need more build points you MAY draw up to twice from the hat of fate. For each draw, roll two dice and add them together...
2: Bad flaw that is assigned to you by the GM. You may roll again
3,4: You may pick a flaw from approved list. You may roll again
5,6,8,9: No effect.
7: No effect and stop rolling (even if you have extra rolls).
10,11: GM assigns you a boon.
12: Player gets to pick a boon.

Boons may have some in game effect or may simply be build points. If you do some sort of level ups, you may want to offer 'the hand of fate' to the players at each level as well.

elliott20
2008-06-12, 04:58 PM
my main reasoning for giving a bit more player control stems from the fact that it allows players to further the story just that much further with each post. Beyond that, it's a different style is all.

You could always just scale it back, and instead of being a full blown "you take control of the scene", it turns into "you get a small unnamed bonus" with a bit of descriptive roleplaying tacked ontop to show how the player manages to squeeze that extra inspiration into his actions.

Another_Poet
2008-06-13, 08:56 AM
Elliott20: Hmm, that actually sounds pretty cool. I'm thinking of it as a Luck bonus, so to speak, to be invoked when the player reeeeally needs/wants something to go his way.

I suppose I could treat Luck just like any other skill. You can have it at 1d6, 2d6 or 3d6, and buy modifiers for it in +1 increments. If you have 1d6 you can roll it once a day, 2d6 twice a day, and 3d6 three times a day. Then it replaces whatever other roll you just boffed. Alternately, you could take half your luck roll and add it to a roll you are about to make.

DM's who like to give players a lot of creative control can give everyone Luck as a free core or side skill.

Although it might be better to have it useable 1/day or 1/scene no matter how many dice you have in it. Otherwise everyone and their grandma will buy Luck as a core skill.

What do you think?


Citizen Joe: Hmm, point taken. I have some serious reservations about certain types of Flaw systems. The one in D&D (I think from Unearthed Arcana?) being the most obvious example. I wonder which specific games' flaw systems you've had experience with?

The reason I ask is because the one in Shadowrun actually seems very cool to me. What makes it different from D&D's flaw system is that you aren't usually buying penalties to skills or other dice rolls. Instead you get some sort of descriptive penalty to your character that comes out in roleplaying. Hmmm... example time.

D&D Flaws: You take -3 on Will saves but have +3 to Handle Animal!

Shadowrun Flaws: You have a serious addiction to cocaine, but get 25 extra build points to do with as you please.

See what I mean? It's a lot more open-ended. A cocaine addiction is a choice you might make for your character purely as flavour, but now you're getting something out of it. Plus, now the DM will remember it and enforce it--it doesn't give any straight penalties to dice rolls, but it does cost money and may serve to distract you from missions. Roleplaying tends to improve under those conditions and people get more into their characters.

So I guess what I'm saying is I don't have a problem with a player choosing their PC's hangups and low points. (I mean, you choose everything else for them). I do have a problem with giving a player an incentive to weaken their character mechanically. I dunno if that jives with you. What do you think?

ap

happyturtle
2008-06-13, 12:53 PM
@Flaws: I like the Fate system where you pay as much for your flaws during chargen as you do the other Aspects of your character. Then when any of your Aspects come up during game play, you earn fate points (sort of like action points) for that scene. You are rewarded for building characters that are interesting rather than strong.

That being said, I like the build-as-you-play system you've set up. I can see a lot of advantages to that.

@Money: I think for money I'd favour a system where you could take 'wealth' as a core skill, if you wanted to be the kind of guy who comes to town, stays in the best inn, drinks the best wine, etc, without worrying about the costs. If you take it as a side skill, you can do the above to a less grand scale. If you don't take it at all, then you are the cash-poor adventurer staying in the cheap inn and drinking cheap mead. It may seem to be just a flavour thing, but I know plenty of people (typically cash-poor college students) who enjoy role-playing being rich. And of course Wealth could affect gameplay in other ways by making it easier for you to interact with nobility and more difficult to gain the trust of the streetwise underclass who see you only as a mark.

It sounds like you've got everything set up in your head and are just getting it all added to the first post as you get time to write it up. When do you think it will be ready for playtesting?

elliott20
2008-06-13, 01:40 PM
I would also like to echo the support using the fate system for some parts of it.

In my opinion, that works a bit better than a luck skill and can in one single swoop take care of the flaws mechanic too.

work in the "compel" mechanics and you have yourself a full blown flaws mechanics.

@money: I agree. Making money a skill would effectively allow players to build a character who is primarily rich and can use their wealth to change gameplay.

qube
2008-06-14, 04:14 PM
(1) I'dd drop the "no 1" rule for criticals. dual 6 would be enough IMO ... the '1' is like finally rolling a natural 20 ... and then NOT confirming it.

(2) you refer to a 'DM' ... this should be GM (a "dungeon master" is the "game master" for DnD)

(3) game name: RPGbP? Role play Game by Post?

(4) about combat: how about during combat enemies can only interact with players that have posted or before certain players if the monsters have supprized them. the monsters 'turn' depends on the choice of the game-master

Citizen Joe
2008-06-14, 09:48 PM
Instead of DM use PM (Post Master).

qube
2008-06-15, 03:40 AM
Instead of DM use PM (Post Master).I thoughed of that too, but I found it confusing with "Private Message".

Another_Poet
2008-06-15, 11:41 AM
Flaws: Hmmm, I have never played the Fate system, but I get the basic idea from what you describe. I personally as a DM (or GM or PM) would have a hard time making sure everyone's aspects/flaws got brought up on a roughly equal basis, but I suppose I'd get used to that after a while.

I'm not really sure yet how to proceed with the flaw system. I didn't expect that it would be one of the things that garnered so much attention. I think I will put that part on hold for now (and indicate this in the Char Gen section above) and come back to it later, after having given it more thought. Additional suggestions on that front are still welcome.

Compel mechanic: I don't know what this means. Is this also a term from the Fate system?

Wealth Skill: I think I will include this or something like this. It's a great idea. Thanks guys! Here are some thoughts:

Since Wealth would not come in handy in battle or other dangerous situations, I am hesitant to make it occupy a core or side skill slot. I wonder if it would be better to have everyone choose a Lifestyle level and have the higher ones cost more BP. This in turn makes me think that there could be two separate Lifestyle choices to make: your Wealth level and your Caste (serf, commoner, craftsman, merchant, clergy, petty aristocrat, aristocrat, royalty).

This in turn makes me think I have a tendency to think up things that are far too complex. :smallwink:

I guess I'll just stick with having it be something you can roll at 1d6, 2d6 or 3d6 like any other skill. Characters would roll such a skill when trying to bribe an official, pay a ransom, find investors, get into expensive places etc. That means there'll need to be target numbers for all those things, but that's no different than any other skill. In most cases I suppose it would be opposed by the NPC's Wealth skill. For instance, if you have Wealth as a side skill (2d6) you have a decent chance of bribing a town guard (who rolls Wealth at 1d6) but a small chance of successfully bribing a cardinal who took it as a core skill and bought modifiers (3d6+2). He has so much more money than you, that you have nothing to offer him. So that keeps it in the realm of an opposed roll, which I think is more fun.

This does get rid of my original idea, which was to have money be a complete nonissue in PbP. Even with Wealth as an available skill I'm going to have to make it very clear in the rules that Wealth does not allow you to procure extra magic weapons/items. They aren't usually sold, and getting someone to part with one will more likely involve social skills or doing missions for them rather than simply offering them cash.

This brings up a new question: As you've all read, there are two ways to improve the p-value of your character after spending all your original build points: earning and spending XP, or gaining gear.

XP is pretty straightforward: you spend it however you want, and this represents your added training and experience.

New gear could go either of two ways. It could be purely something that can also be procured by players spending XP ("Okay, I spend 120 XP and get this awesome new sword... let's say I inherited it from my grandpa"). Or it could be doled out only by the DM ("Okay, in the cellar beneath the ogre's body you find a golden ceremonial axe with runes etched along the edge").

I personally favour the idea that XP can only be spent on skills, spells, and other improvements that could be gained by training and study, whereas gear is found during adventures and ultimately decided by the DM. This means that some of the new powers and skills players get are their own planned choices, but some will always be "luck of the draw" and you'll have characters trying to find uses for items they never would have chosen on their own.

Of course, like in any game the DM has to be responsive to player requests for what kinds of items to put in the loot. Whaddya think?

DM or GM: You know, I actually consciously thought at one point that I should use GM instead of DM. But then when I started writing I found that I don't like GM. As far as I know, although "Dungeon Master" is a phrase used in D&D rules, the phrase itself is not trademarked. I think I'm gonna use it. It's just what I'm used to, and it does make a sort of homage to my roots in D&D. So unless a WotC lawyer shows up a hollerin' or some really cool third option is suggested, DM all the way. :smallbiggrin:

RPGbP: Certainly straightforward. I'll start a list of suggested names in the Name section of the first post. I personally was trying to think of something with a little more flash, or mystique, or something... but sometimes it's best to name things for what they are. RPGbP isn't bad.

@Qube about combat: Yeah, I think something like that sounds about right. I could just stick with the "no real order" theme and have the monsters all go whenever the DM happens to come back and check on the thread after starting the combat. Then again, we could have actual rules... obviously it's to the players' advantage if there are restrictions on how often monsters can act before players in combat.

Eek, I just used "monsters" but meant "enemies" - don't worry, there will be NPC enemies as well as monsters in PbP.

happyturtle
2008-06-15, 12:30 PM
@Flaws/Aspects: The FATE system is here. (http://faterpg.com/dl/FATE2fe.pdf) To read about Aspects being invoked (either by the DM or the player) see chapter 4.

@XP: You could leave it as a choice for the DM, whether to allow someone to buy treasure with XP or not. I sort of like the idea of using your XP to have just the magic item you always wanted to turn up in the dragon's horde, but that is probably the type of thing that would be dependent on the flavour of the campaign.

elliott20
2008-06-15, 02:20 PM
Yes, Compel is a Fate system term. It's basically where you call on a character's aspects in a way that makes the character's life more difficult. In exchange for this crappy twist of fate, you offer them a fate point. The player can, of course, say no. But by doing so, they must pay YOU a fate point (basically action points) instead to avoid the situation.

i.e. say a character has "addicted to drugs" for an aspect. You can, when you feel appropriate, call on that and say "you find yourself suddenly itching for a hit and you've decided to leave your post to go find some drugs." or some such. The player, if he wants, can say "okay, sure" and take the fate point for himself. Or, if he feels this is too important to mess around right now, he must pay YOU a fate point and say, "no, I resist the urge and stay at my post"

it's basically a way for you to insert drama into the character's lives.

the best aspects, thus, are aspects that a character can use to aid himself in game and one that you can compel to get him in trouble.

@wealth as a skill - I would suggest you keep it simple and do allow a player to use wealth as a core skill. I mean, sure, wealth is not useful in combat, but it doesn't mean it's invalid skill. Wealth is the skill that can help grease the wheels in social situations, in prep work, and just about everything else you might think of. In a game that might be more than just combat, wealth definitely has it's uses as a core skill

Another_Poet
2008-06-16, 04:11 PM
I've added a new section on Weapons to the first post.

Also, I realised I forgot to answer happyturtle's question about playtesting. There are aspects o the game (incouding most of the physical combat stuff) that I've already got well planned out in my head. Then there are aspects (like designing the spells, and balancing it all in the p-value system) that seem very dautning to me.

That said, if the level of interest and discussion we've had so far keeps up or increases, we should eb ready for a very crude playtest withint a couple of months.

ap

Another_Poet
2008-06-25, 12:41 PM
I just added an armour & shields section to the first post. I've included soem concerns I have with the current version. So far you guys have been full of good ideas so if you have any more, please help!

Theli
2008-06-25, 12:55 PM
I've been looking for a game system specifically designed for pbp. Shoehorning a tabletop system and having it work well has proved to be a ridiculous task.

I do have one criticism... You should avoid using the term "square" when describing game mechanics. Unless you tack along some kind of software package that makes grid based combat easy, it should simply be avoided at all costs.

Instead, perhaps it would be better to have "states", such as close, near, far, distant, etc. And then when you want to represent 3 dimensions, you could have below, grounded, hovering, air-borne, etc. Along with rules that control what it takes to move between these states. (Perhaps rolling to see how long it takes to make someone "near" as opposed to "far". Though then you'd have to come up with some way of representing time other than turns, which would probably be a good idea anyway for pbp.)

I don't believe that combat HAS to be extremely time consuming and/or strategically or tactically bland for pbp games. You just have to come with with a system specifically designed to make it work within those constraints.

UserClone
2008-06-25, 02:50 PM
Eureka! The name! Why it's PostHaste! The RPG specifically built for Play-by-Post, so that you can stop worrying about the ruleset and just get on with your game! *likes*

As a bonus, supplements/settings are easy to name:
PostModern: Your "Modern" template
PostApocalypse: Self-explanatory template
PostMortem: Your "Survival/Horror" template (Or your V:TM-type dealy)
Postal: The template about frikkin' psychos!
Etc...

Yay!

Another_Poet
2008-06-25, 03:03 PM
FlWiPig, I think your excitement is contagious. As funny as it sounds, I think I like it! I'll add it to the first page!

:)

ap

BTW, a question for everybody - I have a lot of ideas for the default world for this game. Should I start a worldbuilding thread for that in the near future, or be a disciplined writer and finish the rules before starting the world?

Another_Poet
2008-06-27, 08:37 AM
I've been looking for a game system specifically designed for pbp. Shoehorning a tabletop system and having it work well has proved to be a ridiculous task.

I do have one criticism... You should avoid using the term "square" when describing game mechanics. Unless you tack along some kind of software package that makes grid based combat easy, it should simply be avoided at all costs.

Instead, perhaps it would be better to have "states", such as close, near, far, distant, etc. And then when you want to represent 3 dimensions, you could have below, grounded, hovering, air-borne, etc. Along with rules that control what it takes to move between these states. (Perhaps rolling to see how long it takes to make someone "near" as opposed to "far". Though then you'd have to come up with some way of representing time other than turns, which would probably be a good idea anyway for pbp.)

I don't believe that combat HAS to be extremely time consuming and/or strategically or tactically bland for pbp games. You just have to come with with a system specifically designed to make it work within those constraints.

Hi Theli!

I didn't mean to ignore your post. Anyway, I agree there needs to be an easy way to represent distance w/o having maps (although I like maps). So far I haven't come up with anything so I've leftin "squares" as a placeholder. However, I like your idea - just have different ranges and an idea of how many rounds or actions it takes to cross to go through x number of ranges.

I suppose an easy way would be to use the weapon ranges as the default distances - melee, reach, thrown, short range, long range. Moving from long to short and short to thrown would be about equal. Moving from thrown to reach we could say is about the same too, even though that's fudging things a bit. It would seem logical that moving from reach to melee takes less time (it's only a few feet) but that sort of invalidates the point of a reach weapon. Maybe it could take less time, but provokes an attack from the reach-weapon-wielder.

In addition I'd need to add some extra distances on the "far" end of the scale - that is, longer than long range. The way I have it written now, Thrown weapons can be used at a penalty from Short Range, Sh Rg canbe used at a penalty from Long Range... and Lg Rg could be used at a penalty from even farther away. So we'd have to have a distance for that "even farther away" - let's call it Far. And then there should be another one past that, rom which no weapon is capable of striking. Let's call that Out.

So we have

Melee
>>>>>>> Takes no move but provokes attack
Reach
>>>>>>> Takes 1 move
Thrown
>>>>>>> Takes 1 move
Short
>>>>>>> Takes 1 move
Long
>>>>>>> Takes 1 move
Far
>>>>>>> Takes # of moves GM says
Out


I think that might work. I'll stew on it and hopefully get a section on moement up in the not-too-distant future.

Thanks Theli!

ap

Another_Poet
2008-07-01, 01:25 PM
Hi guys. I plan on adding some more stuff soon, but meantime I really could use some input. If anyone would be willing to comment on the armour/shields section and the issues I raised it would be awesome.

thanks!

ap

happyturtle
2008-07-01, 01:31 PM
Sorry, AP. For me, combat is the stuff that happens when I'd rather be role playing. I'm trying to avoid it as much as possible in the freeform game I'm running now.

elliott20
2008-07-01, 01:47 PM
@happyturtle: that's why you run a freeform system, where combat can be resolved with a single resolution. :smallbiggrin: I love free-form games myself. But that's because I'm very partial to narrative style play.

@AP: I'm not really liking the weapons system, mostly because your equipment, as it stands, is starting to take more and more dominance over your character's skill. It is in my opinion that if you make players invest heavily into their combat portions, you effectively take away resources they could be spending making the character more narratively interesting. Plus, the more involving you get with equipment, the more calculations and crunch you'll need to make a decent character. It also makes the game have a greater emphasis on tactical combat. Now, if that's what you're after, keep on truckin', as your system will do just that.

as for the combat distance, I would suggest stealing a page from AGON. In that game, the combat "grid" is not an actual map with xy coordinance, but just a position number. The center of combat, (or at least, the starting point) is given a number 0, and for every zone you are from it, the further you are from the conflict. so all enemies will all start in zone -4, while all players start in zone +4. (With exceptions such as if an enemy and a player spontenously begin conflict)

happyturtle
2008-07-01, 01:57 PM
I heart freeform. I stole some ideas from this thread, about letting char-gen occur during game play, and I'm sort of half-ass using Fate for task resolution, but mostly it's more collaborative storytelling than an actual game.

I like the zone idea. I'm sure that combat will occur eventually, so that might be a good way to handle it. Or I might just get lazy and say "Here be mooks" and let the players just write how they handled it. But most gamers like combat more than me, so I imagine a pbp friendly combat system will make a lot of people happy.

elliott20
2008-07-01, 02:08 PM
to clarify though, just because players are in the same "zone" doesn't necessarily mean they are standing right next to each other narratively. It just means they are about the same distance away from the center of the conflict. This makes even the grid a little abstract

Another_Poet
2008-07-01, 02:13 PM
Hmm. I wonder if part of the reason it seems like the game is so gear-and-tactical-combat heavy is because I have already posted the weapons groups, etc., but haven't yet posted much detail on the skills. Perhaps I should just hurry up and hammr out the skill section intead of trying to smoothe out the weapons & armour first.

On the other hand, no matter how much or little a game relies on gear, having a crappy gear system is still annoying. So if any of you know people with a good head for the tactical side of game design, send 'em on over here to comment to their hearts' content :smallsmile:

elliott20
2008-07-01, 02:24 PM
well, I'm not saying your tactical system is BAD. I'm saying that I think it might be on the tactical heavy side. It could very well be a misconception. You might just be trying to get the combat stuff out of the way so you can focus on developing the REAL bulk of the game. But you're right, because you put down the combat portions first, it made it sound like you're really about to focus on the combat portions. (and seeing as we're on a D&D focused board, that's like 90% all conversations)

In Fate, your weapon is pretty much flavor and nothing else. It doesn't matter if you're holding a knife or a halberd, your real combat effectiveness is not really effected by your weapon of choice. (So long as you acknowledge that difference in weapon choice through your action description)

By comparison, because you have chosen to give the equipment real, meaningful stats, it means that your choices DO matter. And not just a little, either.

Another_Poet
2008-07-01, 02:55 PM
In Fate, your weapon is pretty much flavor and nothing else. It doesn't matter if you're holding a knife or a halberd, your real combat effectiveness is not really effected by your weapon of choice. (So long as you acknowledge that difference in weapon choice through your action description)

By comparison, because you have chosen to give the equipment real, meaningful stats, it means that your choices DO matter. And not just a little, either.

I was really considering going with something like this. One thing I have wondered about though is whether I would make flavour less important by divorcing it from crunch. What I mean is, if each and every weapon you find has its own unique stats and abilities, players really pay attention to the stuff they find and the world seems a little more explore-able. If a non-magic dagger is as badass as a non-magic halberd, and everything comes off of character skill alone - does the world start to take a back seat?

Anyway, while pondering this stuff, I came up with an alternate armour & shield system that takes up less skill slots and might be a little more consistent with other parts of the game. Here it is for those interested:

Alternate Armour & Shields System

ARMOUR

Any character can wear any type of armour. There are three types of armour, each with its own armour value and armour penalty. Armour value refers to how many points of damage the armour absorbs from a given attack; armour penalty is a fixed penalty that is applied to all Attack, Evasion, and Athletics rolls while wearing the armour.

Heavy Armour: Metal scales or plates that cover the whole body, with greaves and gauntlets and a gorget filling in the gaps. Can have an armour value of up to 6. Imparts an armour penalty of -4.

Medium Armour: Ring mail, lamellar armour, and very thick leather armour with metal components. Can have an armour value of up to 4. Imparts an armour penalty of -2.

Light Armour: Quilted or leather armour, usually without any metal except for the helmet (if any). Can have an armour value of up to 2. Imparts no armour penalty at all.

Armour value can be increased beyond its maximum only by enchantment or the use of special materials in their construction. Many suits of armour have other magical properties as well, such as amplifying magic or slowly healing the wearer. [A gear table will be forthcoming.]

Armour penalties can be lessened for a particular piece of armour by enchantment, or for all armour a character uses by spending XP [a section on special abilities is forthcoming].


SHIELDS

Unlike armour, shields do not absorb damage; instead they boost your Evasion. Anyone can use a shield, but how much the shield boosts Evasion depends on your character's Shield skill. This skill can be puchased as a side or core skill like any other, but it does not involve a dice roll. Instead, characters with Shields as a core skill get +5 to Evasion while using any shield; those with Shields as a side skill get +3; everyone else gets +1. If a shield is enchanted or made of special materials it may grant additional bonuses or have other special properties as well.

However, a character's Shields skill is not the only factor in determining how useful a shield is. Like weapons, shields can have different qualities:

Arm: Arm shields are strapped to the arm, leaving both hands free. Arm shields usually have a shield value of +1.

Heavy: Heavy shields require the use of a hand and arm. That hand cannot be used for anything else. Heavy shields can have a shield rating of up to +3.

Wall: Shields with this quality can be used to form shield walls.

Fixable: Fixable shields have a pointed base which can be spiked into the ground. Doing so allows a character to use the shield (in one direction only) without having to hold onto it. It takes an action to pull the shield back up.

[A table of specific shields and their power value is forthcoming.]

elliott20
2008-07-01, 03:12 PM
I was really considering going with something like this. One thing I have wondered about though is whether I would make flavour less important by divorcing it from crunch. What I mean is, if each and every weapon you find has its own unique stats and abilities, players really pay attention to the stuff they find and the world seems a little more explore-able. If a non-magic dagger is as badass as a non-magic halberd, and everything comes off of character skill alone - does the world start to take a back seat?

well, it depends entirely on the flavor.

Me, I play a lot of pulp games, so it's quite natural for a character with a dagger to just as kick ass as a halberd. I try to describe in ridiculous ways how my character (or rather, NPCs in this case) use their daggers to subdue someone who has a weapon with more than twice their reach. In a game where you want combat to be more off the wall crazy and more outrageous, you do that by de-emphasizing the importance of equipment.

If you want something grittier and with a more tactical feel to it, (like if you enjoy watching a veteran soldier talk about what is the right weapon to use for each situation) go with detailed weapon stats.

In the first choice, taking an knife to a gun fight is not really a good or bad idea. It depends entirely upon the character. And the character with more skill will still come out on top.

The second scenario will have you punishing players for making less than optimal choices. If that's what you want to do, then go for it. That is what Agon did. Agon forces you to pick from 3 weapons: sword, spear, or bow. And you can't be good at all three. (Heck, the way it works, you can't even be PROFICIENT in all three) If you pick the wrong weapon, and the other players don't work with you right, you could be playing a very short game.

Skjaldbakka
2008-07-01, 08:44 PM
You could take a page from the SMBG's. The Heal/Hurt games could be modified to simulate combat in PbP, and you could have a 'speed' modifier that determines how many posts you have to wait before you can post again.
I am of course referring to the posting rate rules for such.

Example:

DM: You come across an ogre and its pet bear. [you would want some kind of roll (perhaps 1d6-1)to determine whether or not they are allowed to act immediately, since the DM will always post first]

Player 1: I run up to the ogre and cut it with my sword. [roll] My speed is 3, so I have to wait for 3 other people to act before I can act again.

Player 2: I cast a fireball at the bear. Fireball has a speed of 5, so I have to wait 5 posts before I post again.

DM: The ogre got a [2] on its initiative roll, so now that 2 of you have posted, it can act! It smashes player 1 with its club. Its natural speed is 4, so it has to wait 4 posts to act again.

etc... I think you get the idea here.

This also encourages everyone to pay close attention to the game, so they can continue to act as quickly as they are allowed. All the numbers were completely arbitrary, and you would probably want to use a variable 'speed' score, so that the worst speed would be set at the number of combatants.

Since you don't need to use dice, it could be # of combatants, - creature's speed, to determine its acting speed for the battle.

elliott20
2008-07-02, 08:31 AM
wouldn't doing something like this actually introduce more waiting though?

Skjaldbakka
2008-07-02, 09:12 AM
No, actually, because you have to keep active and post. If you don't, you just get skipped. Which means you are never waiting for someone to take their turn before starting the next 'round'.

In response to other things:


So if any of you know people with a good head for the tactical side of game design, send 'em on over here to comment to their hearts' content

Equipment and Magic are two tricky elements of game design, since there is a desire for equipment to not be 'part of the character', which it is with a CP system. It is however a pain in the tuckus to come up with a big list of items and attach a price tag to each one. With magic, there is a certain desire for it to be 'something different', otherwise why bother.

-Ping rate:
You want to reduce the ping rate. This means the system needs to be completely devoid of opposed rolls of any kind, and any kind of 'reaction' needs to be unrolled.

Rolling Will and Evasion in response to things is very, very bad for PbP. You instead want a Will and Evasion score that sets a difficulty to hit/effect you. Similarly, counterattack is bad, since that would require an additional post. If you want counterattack as a possibility, assign each character a value for their counterattack, that is rolled against with each attack (perhaps a threshhold- Evasion is 10, Counter is 5, so if you roll a 5 or less, you miss, and I counterattack for X dmg, but if you roll 6-9, you just fail to effect me. Numbers are completely arbitrary).

Remember- the goal is for a character's action to be completely resolved in one post.

Another_Poet
2008-07-02, 10:05 AM
Hey Skjald! Good to see you!


No, actually, because you have to keep active and post. If you don't, you just get skipped. Which means you are never waiting for someone to take their turn before starting the next 'round'.

See, I would love a system like that. (It reminds me of Final Fantasy Tactics!) My experience though is that most DM's and some players are hesitant to actually skip people, even in PbP. For instance, let's say I have to wait 3 posts before I can act again. So the DM posts the goblin's action, and our elf fires off her bow. That's 2. The next person in line is our dwarf. He doesn't post that day. So how long do I wait before he is "skipped"? Do I skip him and post that same evening, or is that being selfish? Do I wait until the next day, or is that dragging things out too much? That's where many PbP groups get bogged down: everyone knows, deep in their heart, that it's best to skip the slow posters but no one actually wants to risk upsetting the other folks.

So I guess I wonder, using a speed system like that for PbP, what you would suggest in order to keep things moving.



Equipment and Magic are two tricky elements of game design, since there is a desire for equipment to not be 'part of the character', which it is with a CP system. It is however a pain in the tuckus to come up with a big list of items and attach a price tag to each one. With magic, there is a certain desire for it to be 'something different', otherwise why bother.

Yeah, I'm finding that out as we speak :)

(Actually I knew ahead of time the spell system would be the hardest part, but now I'm running out of other things to design so I'm going to have to start in on it pretty soon.)



-Ping rate:
You want to reduce the ping rate. This means the system needs to be completely devoid of opposed rolls of any kind, and any kind of 'reaction' needs to be unrolled.

Rolling Will and Evasion in response to things is very, very bad for PbP. You instead want a Will and Evasion score that sets a difficulty to hit/effect you. Similarly, counterattack is bad, since that would require an additional post. If you want counterattack as a possibility, assign each character a value for their counterattack, that is rolled against with each attack (perhaps a threshhold- Evasion is 10, Counter is 5, so if you roll a 5 or less, you miss, and I counterattack for X dmg, but if you roll 6-9, you just fail to effect me. Numbers are completely arbitrary).

Remember- the goal is for a character's action to be completely resolved in one post.

That's one of the reasons behind Taking Mean. Since you can Take Mean on any roll, even in combat (unlike Taking 10 in D&D), and since the DM is told to Take Mean whenever she takes control of a PC, a round can go something like this:

Elven Thief (first post): Okay I totally backstab him!
[attack roll]
[damage roll]
[evasion roll just in case]

(player looks at his post and sees he crit'd)

Elven Thief (second post): Woo! Crit success on Evasion! I better roll a counter:
[attack roll]
[damage roll]

DM: Ouch he's looking pretty bad... but he still has a bit of fight left in him. He swings at you and hits for 4 breath... but you got that free counterattack, so he's a goner.

If the player hadn't taken a moment to see he had crit'd Evasion and make a second post, the DM could simply take his mean attack roll and mean damage roll to determine the worth of his counter attack.

In other words, Taking Mean can always provide a fixed target number and the DM can always Take Mean so... problem solved. Hopefully.

That said, if the counterattack mechanism proves to be a pain during play testing, I will gladly get rid of it and have crit's only work on attack rolls.

ap

Siosilvar
2008-07-02, 10:28 AM
I would love to see a game based on 2d12, but it seems you've already got the core mechanic.

Another_Poet
2008-07-02, 10:39 AM
I would love to see a game based on 2d12, but it seems you've already got the core mechanic.

Just out of curiosity, why 2d12?

elliott20
2008-07-02, 12:43 PM
it's because d12s get no love.

Theli
2008-07-02, 01:12 PM
Heh, yeah... I used to try to come up with a system that used d12s... But it really is pointless.

And besides the easy to understand nature of a die for the source of random chance in an rpg, it's not really necessary either. Why use die rolls at all?

You could use straight percentage for instance... You'd just have to come up with different rules.

Although, I admit that the bell curve of a 3d6 is nice...

There really should be a better way. What would be interesting is if somebody could come up with a method for this purpose that doesn't use anything a plain-old message board couldn't provide. It'd be nice to play a non-shallow rpg on something without a dice roller and not have to use any outside utilities...

Perhaps dice-less rpgs can be used as inspiration? How does diceless amber work?

Skjaldbakka
2008-07-02, 01:51 PM
I'd be interested to hear more about Amber as well. IIRC, it uses tokens, which you spend to do stuff.

Another_Poet
2008-07-02, 02:24 PM
Yeah, actually I was just about to suggest a token pool system in response to Theli. Our current version of PbP could easily be adapted to that:

1) Everyone "takes mean" on everything (or in other words, core skills are +10, side skills +7 and everything else +3).

2) Each character gets a (daily? per scene?) pool of bonus points.

3) Any character can spend a point from their pool for a +1 to any roll at any time, maximum +3.

4) The exception to the maximum: by spending 10 points you can get a +6 instead. You can only do this once per (day/scene/etc.).

Voila, no dice rollers needed. Would probably work well for freeform stuff too.

I personally am a fan of a more conventional RPG with dice (real or virtual) and lots of stats & strategy. My goal with PbP has been to build such a system that runs well in a PbP gake - preferrably without ditching the stuff that makes it a conventional RPG. But I think releasing a Lite version with no dice would be a good idea for all the reasons you guys have mentioned above.

ap

Skjaldbakka
2008-07-02, 03:30 PM
If you comined that with my system, you could recover 1 token/post. That way you don't feel guilty about skipping the slow posters, because when they do post, they do really cool stuff (since they will almost certainly have a full pool of tokens).

Another_Poet
2008-07-02, 07:53 PM
If you comined that with my system, you could recover 1 token/post. That way you don't feel guilty about skipping the slow posters, because when they do post, they do really cool stuff (since they will almost certainly have a full pool of tokens).

Wow, that is pretty cool :smallbiggrin:

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-07-02, 09:49 PM
First off, I commend you for attempting this monumental task of trying to come up with a PbP-friendly system!

Second, having played a wide variaty of tabletop RPG's for the past twenty-mumble years, I've seen a lot of different ways of doing things. Here's a few thoughts:

1) Make the players define their skills before gameplay start. While it's faster just to go like it is, this also leads to potential cheese and complicated recordkeeping. Besides, it's not like you have a big involved and complicated setup to begin with. List all Core skills and all Side Skills and your stats. Done.

This also lets you easily determine the starting equipment of a character. He automatically starts out with anything he has as a core skill in, and half the things he has a side skill in. Thus a fighter type with Plate Armor, Shield, and Longsword as Core Skills gets these items to start with. It only makes sense, that they would start out with the equipment they're familiar with, and vice versa, they're familiar with the equipment they have been carrying around for who knows how long.

2) Flaws are a problem! The two systems that have used Flaws that I have played (GURPS and World of Darkness) have both had lots of problems with min-maxing. WoD not nearly so much as GURPS, but even then, there were some 'flaws' that weren't very disadvantagous, and were often taken to get free points. Care MUST be taken to make sure the flaws really are going to present constant penalties to the character and are a significant disadvantage. For example, giving a concrete penalty to every roll based on Evasion or Will is a big problem, because they're more likely to be affected by bad guys. I can see giving a flaw point for this. However, giving a penalty to a particular use of an uncommon skill should not be a flaw, simply because of the lack of frequency. So, a -x penalty to Evasion would be worth something. A -x penalty to using any sort of magic probably shouldn't be worth any flaw points because a pure mundane tank can abuse this, not intending to ever pick up any magic, and getting freebee points for it.

3) Your armor system seems to be based on a damage reduction basis, much like DR from GURPS. A word of caution: As the armor value approaches the bell curve on the likely damage of the opponents, it's value raises sharply. For example, if a typical opponent's damage is 1d6, then having an armor value of 6 is, effectively, a complete immunity to damage. Likewise, 'ablative' armor, where you subtract the armor value first, can also lead to being practically invincible in a given scene, only to have a way to repair/replace the armor in question when it's use is nearly extinguished.

A simple suggestion I got from Steve Jackson's very first game, TFT: The more Armor Value is directly subtracted from any Evasion roll you make. While it's not perfect, or realistic, it is quite balanced. The heavier the armor you wear, the less likely you are to avoid something.

I'm very interested to see how this develops. I've also come up with a PbP magic system, using a requsite number of 'prep turns' for a given power of effect to balance out magic in a free-form setting. Basically, the more powerful the effect, the more number of turns you must take to get it ready. Ignoring standard limitations (verbal and somatic components, for example) also cost extra turns. This keeps things like tossing around death spells every round from happening.
Also included is 'fatigue' rules, which indicate that for every x rounds of preparing magic, you gain a fatigue level, which increases the total number of rounds you must spend to prepare further magical effects. So, say you set the fatigue threshold at 5. Someone spends six turns preparing a huge magical effect, it goes off, now he's also fatigued in addition to however many points he just spent on the spell itself. If he wants to do that exact same effect, he'll have to spend 7 turns. Fatigue levels are negated by 10 minutes of rest out of combat, or spending one full turn in combat. Fatigue threshold can be achieved through multiple effects. Thus casting a 3 prep spell, followed up by a 3 prep spell will also net you a fatigue level in the above fatigue threshold of 5 example. Hey, what can I say, telling the rules of reality to sit down and shut up is hard work.

In a nutshell, here's how my magic system goes:

Fluff is extranious, difficulty is based on effect. You could use fire, acid, falling rocks, matter-dissassociation, or whatever flavor you want to use, but doing x damage requires y rounds of prep time.

In brief: Doing x damage, requiring an attack roll with the spell in question, and allowing one of the two defenses (Will or Evasion), is the base difficulty, say one full turn of prep before the effect goes off. This also includes 'standards' like Somatic and Verbal components, and being able to be interrupted by any adjacent opponents.

Debialiating effects (such as a Slow or Nausious effect which cripples combat ability) get a +1 Prep Time, because they are so devistating.

Incapacitating effects (such as Sleep, Paralysis, and the like, which completely prohibits targets from taking ANY action on their turn) get a +2 prep time.

Death Effects or similar semi-permanent effects that effectively remove the character from the game (such as Petrification) get +4 prep time.

Area Effect spells must first pay an additional prep turn to remove the to-hit aspect, then pay additional prep turns depending on size. Double additional prep turns if it can avoid allies within the area of effect (IFF).

If you no longer require an attack roll (say, your typical Sleep spell which doesn't require targeting, but does allow a Save), then increase time by one round. Likewise, if your spell no longer allows a save, but still requires an attack roll (such as Scorching Ray), +1 prep time. YOU CAN NEVER REMOVE BOTH ATTACK AND DEFENSE ROLLS!

+1 prep time per 'standard' you ignore.

Now then, you can also reduce prep time:

-1 prep turn to make an effect a melee attack rather than ranged attack

-x for spending additional Spirit on the attack. Possibly increase this if you take Spirit as a Side/Core skill, making it very valuable for a caster?

Another_Poet
2008-07-03, 11:27 AM
First off, I commend you for attempting this monumental task of trying to come up with a PbP-friendly system!

Thank you!



Second, having played a wide variaty of tabletop RPG's for the past twenty-mumble years, I've seen a lot of different ways of doing things. Here's a few thoughts:

1) Make the players define their skills before gameplay start. While it's faster just to go like it is, this also leads to potential cheese and complicated recordkeeping...

Yeah, I'm a bit worried about that happening. I do notice though that PbP players *in gneral* are more about roleplaying and less about min-maxing than IRL players. I mean, "freeform" is a dirty word to most gamers I know but it's like the Bible to half the people on here (which is kind iof cool, in my opinion). Anyway we'll see how the build-as-you-play model goes during playtesting. If it leads to disputes or arguments we'll scrap it.


This also lets you easily determine the starting equipment of a character. He automatically starts out with anything he has as a core skill in, and half the things he has a side skill in.

This is a very appealing idea.


2) Flaws are a problem! The two systems that have used Flaws that I have played (GURPS and World of Darkness) have both had lots of problems with min-maxing. WoD not nearly so much as GURPS, but even then, there were some 'flaws' that weren't very disadvantagous, and were often taken to get free points. Care MUST be taken to make sure the flaws really are going to present constant penalties to the character and are a significant disadvantage. For example, giving a concrete penalty to every roll based on Evasion or Will is a big problem, because they're more likely to be affected by bad guys. I can see giving a flaw point for this. However, giving a penalty to a particular use of an uncommon skill should not be a flaw, simply because of the lack of frequency. So, a -x penalty to Evasion would be worth something. A -x penalty to using any sort of magic probably shouldn't be worth any flaw points because a pure mundane tank can abuse this, not intending to ever pick up any magic, and getting freebee points for it.

Thank you! This is advice than can really help the design process.


3) Your armor system seems to be based on a damage reduction basis, much like DR from GURPS. A word of caution: As the armor value approaches the bell curve on the likely damage of the opponents, it's value raises sharply. For example, if a typical opponent's damage is 1d6, then having an armor value of 6 is, effectively, a complete immunity to damage. Likewise, 'ablative' armor, where you subtract the armor value first, can also lead to being practically invincible in a given scene, only to have a way to repair/replace the armor in question when it's use is nearly extinguished.

A simple suggestion I got from Steve Jackson's very first game, TFT: The more Armor Value is directly subtracted from any Evasion roll you make. While it's not perfect, or realistic, it is quite balanced. The heavier the armor you wear, the less likely you are to avoid something.

Yeah, armour value = armor penalty is the way to go. Or at least keep them proportionate. Again, thank you.


I'm very interested to see how this develops. I've also come up with a PbP magic system...

The turns-to-recharge may not translate well to PbP. It is one more thing slowing down the frequency with which people can post, and slowing down combat. I think the only cost for magic will be Spirit points. However, the proprtions in which you balanced the turn cost for different effects interest me, and I hope you'll be around and posting when I start working on the magic system!

:)

ap

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-07-03, 07:21 PM
Well, it was originally written for a free-form game system where the only constant WAS turns, since everyone went in a logical rotation. Of course, everyone was online at the same time in a chatroom, so it made things a lot easier.

You can just as easily say +1 spirit for... rather than +1 Prep Turn, and it should balance out nicely, specially with your initial Spirit of 6. One thing you should enforce: Casting a spell should take a full turn before the effect goes off, and it can be interrupted during that round with almost any sort of attack, forcing a Will check on the caster to keep the spell going if it lands.

Also, here's an idea: Instead of adding to your evasion, Shield is a skill you can pick up to make a Block, which is similar in nature to an evasion check, with the a few differences.

First off, You have three types of shield: Small Shield, Medium Shield, and Large Shield. Small Shield is, effectively, a buckler. Medium Shield is about the size of a typical Knight's shield, or an SCA Heater shield. A Large Shield is even bigger, much like the old Roman-style shield. Picking up the skill Shield will affect rolls from all types of shields.

You can use a Small Shield in conjunction with a weapon, but you take a -2 penalty on both using whatever in that hand AND any Block roll.

A Medium Shield is your 'average', it carries no bonuses or penalties, but you cannot use anything in your shield hand but your shield.

A Large Shield carries a -2 penalty to do any complicated task while equipped with it, however it gives a +2 to your Block roll, and may be used to Turtle.

You must declare Turtle as your action, and it will last until you declare you are no longer turtling. While turtling, you may take no action other than continuing to turtle, or spend a turn un-turtling. While Turtling, you are completely behind your shield, making you effectively immune to any normal ranged attack (bows, javelins, thrown weapons, etc...). Anyone in melee may try to strike around the shield at a -2 penalty. Magical effects that are stopped by shields are treated as projectiles, magic effects that are not stopped by shields that require an attack roll are automatically assumed to hit the target.

Using a shield is similar to using an Evasion roll, with the base roll of 1d6, 2d6 if a side skill, and 3d6 if prime skill. However, it is not as perfect a defense as Evasion. Making a Block roll effectively means it hit the shield, and over time, this can wear down the shield, and can also harm you even through the shield. If a weapon does Massive damage (i.e. is a two-handed maul, a dragon's claw or tail attack, or something similarly heavy), making a block check means the shield is destroyed, and you take damage, and that arm is crippled until healed. A Block check is not modified by a person's Armor Penalty. Also stopping three blows with Block in a single combat scene forces the shield user to make a skill check or find that the shield has been damaged and is no longer effective.

Another_Poet
2008-07-09, 03:35 PM
Just wanted to point out that the armour & shield section has now been redone. The new system is similar to the "alternate system" I ran past you all a little bit ago, slimmed down and simplified a bit. As suggested armour penalty is proportionate to armour value. Should have more stuff coming soon...

ap

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-07-10, 07:48 PM
Okay, this is going into the different weapons. Some of them, I just can't see why they are listed the way they are.

Knives. Really, I don't think these should be Rapid weapons. Their main advantage is they are able to be concealed. Give them bonuses to be concealed and drawn from concealment to be able to attack with surprise. It is surprisingly difficult to get a number of attacks off in a short amount of time and still do an appreciable amount of damage with a knife. Typically, you're going to have to either draw cut or stab deep, both actions require a lot of movement and aren't able to be recovered from quickly.

Fencing weapons. Now these should be classified as Rapid weapons. Also, I feel that a Katana is a 2H Fencing weapon. The style used is FAR similar to fencing than to other long bladed weapons. However, they should not do extra damage. In fact, they often do LESS damage than a typical blade against an armored opponent (with the exception of Chain. Thrusting a foil into someone wearing chain mail is almost invariabally lethal, as the blade goes through the links, and dices up whatever internal organs lay inside).

Also, I feel there should be a distinction between 1h swords and 2h swords, as the technique is often very different, and Longsword should not grant Evasion, because it is often EASIER to hit someone with a Claymore (for example), simply because you aren't able to block as easily.

I feel there should also be a 'Hafed' weapon group, to cover Axes, Hammers, Maces, and Picks. Basically, anything unbalanced with a longer haft and a head of some kind that isn't hinged like a flail. Give them +2 armor penetration (first two points of armor don't count) because they're basically can openers, but give them a -1 to attack, because they are somewhat clumsier than swords are. Against unarmored opponents, there's not much point, but they are MUCH more useful against a guy in plate mail than a sword is.

I feel you should let Polearms have the Special: May be used to set to receive a charge, and then when someone tries to charge into their threatened range, an attack is automatically resolved out of turn (basically, an attack of opportunity) before he can close.

erikun
2008-07-10, 11:41 PM
Hmm... I think we may be getting stuck on clarifying weapon/armor rules before worrying about the rest of the game. Perhaps taking a look at how well everything else works, then coming back to the details with weapons, would be a better idea? It would be a shame to have these nice weapon rules that were incompatable with the rest of the system, after all. :smallwink:

Now, to make sure that I understand the system correctly:

To start the game, you have a basic character concept, called the "Id". This works as a mechanical description of the character, and gives people an idea of what he can do.

Next, we have Tetrad scores. You start with Breath 6, Spirit 6, Evasion 1d6, and Will 1d6. You can spend Build Points for +1 Breath and Spirit, but you can't spend Build Points on Evasion and Will(?).

After that, we write up skills. 3d6 for core skills, 2d6 for secondary skills, and 1d6 for anything else you'd do. Spend Build Points of +1 in skill categories.

You get equipment based on your core skills. You can buy any additional equipment with Build Points.

Throughout the game, the player may choose new core and secondary skills. These are limited to 7 core skills and 12 secondary skills. If the player wants to have more/upgrade beyond the basic 7+12 skills, they need to spend Build Points or EXP to do so.

Just to make sure... this is the basic concept, correct?

My first question is, then: how narrow should the focus of the skills be? Does "Longsword" cover everything you'd use a longsword for? Does it just cover swinging a longsword in battle? What about a skill like "Bicycling"? Would that cover making an attack roll to run someone over with a bicycle?

elliott20
2008-07-11, 12:26 AM
My first question is, then: how narrow should the focus of the skills be? Does "Longsword" cover everything you'd use a longsword for? Does it just cover swinging a longsword in battle? What about a skill like "Bicycling"? Would that cover making an attack roll to run someone over with a bicycle?
I personally think it would land more on the broad side, else the bookkeeping would be kind of a pain in the butt.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-07-20, 11:14 AM
One thing I would like to go over: NPC Generation.

Now, I'm well aware these are simply bare-bones guidelines, but I've kind of run some numbers, and found one thing to be true: If you write up normal encounters the same way you write up PC's, they're going to get curb-stomped.

Seriously, they run through a huge number of normal encounters. If I were to write up encounters like PC's, I'd give as core skills: Evasion, Weapon skill of flavor, and Wind. Maybe some kind of Armor. I really don't need anything else to make a 'grunt' who is very difficult to take down.

So, I propose the follow guidelines for NPC Generation:

Non-Combat Encounter: This is for NPC's that the PC's encounter frequently, but are not likely to engage in combat. This may include certain contacts, or specialists which they hire on a frequent basis. Examples include a certain merchant whom the PC's pay additional funds to act as an information source and to be able to obtain those items which are normally not to be found on the open market, a wizard who specializes in custom orders for enchanting magic items, or a noble whom the PC's work for or use as an information source.

Build: 1 Core, 2 Secondary. Core skill must be the skill the PC's use. For example, the above Merchant build would likely have his skill in Merchanting. Secondary skills must be used to flesh out the character.

Mook: The many, the slaughtered, the Red-Shirts... the mooks. Typical encounters the PC's intend to slaughter by the thousands over the course of their campaign.

Build: either 1 core and 1 secondary, OR 3 Secondary.

Elite: The ones in charge of the mooks. Not necessarily the one in ultimate command, but the Sergants, the Leutenants, any bad guy who is introduced to the PC's with a name.

Build: 2 Core and 2 Secondary OR 1 Core and 4 Secondary

BBEG: The Don, Professor Evil, Dr. Strange, Kefka, the Joker. This is the starring evil man in charge of the whole operation. He's the guy everyone loves to hate, who is a significant threat in his own right, but also has significant backup.

Build: As PC

Another_Poet
2008-07-21, 10:16 AM
Hi guys!

Shneekey (or, On the Matter of NPCs): NPCs that are meant as enemies/challenges would probably be best viewed in terms of their total power ratings (their own power rating plus their gear's power rating). If their power rating is equal to one PC they will be slaughtered. If their power rating is equal to the whole party they will kill PCs. Probably what you'd want in an ideal encounter is someone who has 150 - 200% of the Power Rating of a PC.

Of course, many encounters may not be solo. If 7 thugs jump 4 PCs they may be dangerous regardless of their power rating. This is something that will come out during play testing, and that will also tell us what kinds of abilities trump what kinds of PCs.

There are two things to keep in mind when statting NPCs for PbP: first, combat is supposed to be very dangerous to PCs (so that it will happen less often, so that the game won't bog down in lots of combats). So making NPCs that are equal to PCs may not be terrible, depending on circumstances.

Second, combat doesn't end in a lot of deaths; it ends in a lot of injuries. Most combats will wrap up when one side or the other is mostly on the ground bleeding and the one or two still up surrender or flee. Of course, PC's don't like surrendering or fleeing, so I'd say that most combats will probably end with a few enemy captives and one or two injured PCs. If encounters are weekly rather than daily, and medicine or magical healing isn't too hard to come by, this shouldn't bog things down too bad but it does leave the PC's at constant risk of either mission failure (because they had to pull out with their wounded) or capture (bcause they all went down). I think a good rule for PbP DMing would be that no location or encounter is going to be the same on two different occasions. You get one shot to clear something out, and if you don't succeed then "What next?" becomes a big question for the group to decide.

Okay, yikes, long setup. Anyway my point is that the builds you offered for different kinds of NPCs seem good. Lackeys with 1 core and 1 secondary skill should be common enough. The trick is to put that in build point terms so that it can be templated easily. For instance:

MOOK GENERATION
1. Standard tetrad and 200 build points
2. 1 secondary and 1 core skill
3. What will he do if captured?
4. What will he do if he is the last one standing from his group?
5. Total Power Level = ____

Basically we'd want every NPC build to be expressed in power level terms because that will serve as the Challenge Rating of that NPC. I think GMs should also be encouraged to consider all their NPCs as having the same number of Core and Side skills as the PCs, except that most of their slots are taken up by combat-useless stuff. So that Mook might only have 1 Core Skill dedicated to fighting, but he also has Parenting, Cooking, Basketry, Fishing, Streetsmarts, Storytelling, and Animal Training. The DM doesn't have to decide all that when throwing together NPCs for encounters, but it will come in handy to fill in those core and side slots if the NPC gets captured by the PCs. Maybe after a day or two he starts talking about his kids, or he earns the PCs' trust by catching fish for them every night. Players shouldn't be surprised when the DM fills in NPCs' missing skill slots during the campaign; after all, the PCs get to do it too.

Erikun, thanks for your detailed question/clarification, and many apologies I didn't get to respond sooner. First I was gone, then the forums were gone. :smallsmile:

I would say that your summary is very accurate. It seems like you understand tha basic system. There are just two areas that need clarification.

First, you said you can "spend build points of +1" for skills. That is true, you can buy modifiers to any skills. Just to be clear though (not sure if you thought this or not) it probably won't be a 1-to-1 basis. That is, it might cost 20 build points or 50 to buy a +1. We haven't gotten that far yet.

Second, it was proposed that PC's get starting gear based on their core skills, but that hasn't been put into the rules yet. I'm still chewin on it. As written, PCs start with no gear except whatever they buy with build points. But it may change.

Also, you asked whether people can spend build points on Evasion and Will. They can - sort of. They could buy modifiers just like any other skill (except that Evasion will cost extra). Also, they could buy extra core skill slots and dedicate one or more of those to Evasion and Will, but buying new core skill slots is likely to be so expensive that it would be impossible, or just silly, to do so at char gen.

Again, the build point cost hasn't all been accounted out yet, but I will say this: there is likely to be a cap on how high you can boost a skill with modifiers, so that at some point it becomes necessary to make it a side and then core skill in order to keep advancing it. Probably 3d6+6 is the highest any skill can go, with maybe a single further "master" step beyond that. the "master" level of a skill would cost tons. Alternately, maybe it can be granted by divine grace...

Also, I was thinking that buying a dice in a skill should cost the same as buying a +3 to that skill (rather than a +4). This is to tempt people into buying dice and taking a gamble rather than just buying straight modifiers all the time.

About weapons: To be honest, I was thinking of dropping the "rapid" quality altogether. Even though it makes sense for some weapons, a case can be made for almost any weapon being Rapid in the right hands. Plus, the economy of actions. Having an extra attack is worth more than any other weapon quality. I think extra attacks might be thins that need to be bought in their own right, regardless of the weapon.

So what next?
Erikun makes a good point. We have a rough idea of the weapons and armour, and no idea at all of the rest of the system. So I wonder what people want to work on next. Magic seems like the obvious move, but another posibility would be to take the time to run a few tests. For instance, we could create a party of warriors using just weapons, armour, evasion, and breath. Then we could let them fight each other and NPCs in a few test runs, and see how valuable different things are. This would help in pricing the skills and gear we've discussed so far. It might also give a good basis for comparing magic efects to physical stuff.

So, please let me know whether you guys want to start talking about magic in depth or want to start running some crude balance tests. Or heck, just start talking about the one you prefer. I'll get my notes up soon but no need to wait on me!

ap

Another_Poet
2008-07-21, 10:18 AM
I personally think it would land more on the broad side, else the bookkeeping would be kind of a pain in the butt.

I agree; non combat skills should be broad (i.e., "Convince me that one of your skills would let you run a guy down on a bike.")

For combat skills like Longswords, I'm torn. I was thinking of making a bunch of special abilities you could buy, sich as disarming and the like. But maybe it should just come off of the weapon skill you're using. What do you guys think?

ap

Theli
2008-07-22, 08:23 AM
One minor point I'd like the bring up is that it seems that the default assumption for this new system must be that's it's a fantasy rpg. Perhaps making a PbP system that work in modern settings as well as fantasy ones is beyond the scope of what you're trying to do. But if so, then it would probably be worthwhile to make that point known up front.

Another_Poet
2008-07-22, 09:19 AM
Good point.

Yes, the first inarnation of PbP will be as a fantasy RPG. If it develops into a real game and people enjoy it I'd love to see it retooled for modern, sci fi, or especially surreal games. SInce there are no classes it wouldn't be too hard - new weapon groups, new gear, reflavour the magic and you're done. But one genre at a time :)

I'll add a note of this in the first post. Thanks Theli!

ap

erikun
2008-07-22, 04:51 PM
Huh, need to get back into thinking about this. It's been awhile since I was last here! :smallsmile:

Now, I'm thinking skills should probably be limited to a group of similar objects, and a group of similar actions. To move away from the sword-swinging for a minute, let's take another example: cars. There could be a skill such as Driving [cars] which would determine how well you can drive a car around. Vehicles similar to cars, such as jeeps, trucks, and SUVs, should also fall under the same skill. However, a semi-trailer truck handles considerably different from a car - if you wanted to be good at driving a semi, then you'll want Driving [semi-trailer]. Also, while it is related, drag racing well is considerably different that standard driving; Drag Racing [cars] would be different than Driving [cars].

The point being is that we'd best specifying that a certain skill should apply to a general group of objects, and a general action with then. To go back to combat, Sword [attack] should be different from Sword [parry], because while it's the same weapon, it is two very different actions with the weapon. Hopefully, the distinction should avoid any Dogs in the Vineyard-style skills like "My Longsword" that try to encompass everything the character does.

Also, I was also thinking about "Mastery" beyond primary skills - spending a lot of Build Points to boost the roll from 3d6 to 4d6. Interesting. :smallsmile:

As for the +1's added to rolls, perhaps we could limit them by skill level? For example, basic skills (1d6) cannot go above +2, secondary skills (2d6) cannot go above +4, etc. If so, then spending Build Points to upgrade the dice shouldn't remove the +1's... or perhaps it should cost more for each +1.

Example: If it costs 5 BP to increase 1d6 to 1d6+1, and 10BP to increase 1d6 to 2d6, perhaps it costs 15BP to increase 1d6+1 to 2d6+1?

Be a bit careful with this, though. 2d6+4 provides a better average roll than 3d6, so some people may avoid upgrading if the cost is too prohibitive. Perhaps that's more of a discussion for determining BP costs, though.

ericgrau
2008-07-22, 06:06 PM
1. I would strongly suggest modifying an existing system for balance purposes, or else making the rules system extremely simple so that it will be easy to balance. On a simple system you can do a little math and probability to estimate how hard/strong something will be.

2. Combat is going to be at least half of any rpg, even if smart players avoid unnecessary combat (and are awarded equally for such, as they should be). I'd suggest speeding it up instead. Invent a simultaneous combat system using spoiler blocks so that no player looks at another player's actions unintentionally. This uses the honor system, but if you're in a game/contest where cheating is a concern, just do it by PM.

One thing to bear in mind for a simultaneous system will be actions that rely on other creature's actions. For example a player might say, "I move up to X creature and attack him." X creature might move somewhere else at the same time, so the player follows.

3. Allow a maximum of 24 hours response time or a player doesn't take an action. It should be reasonable for players to check on the game daily, or else they shouldn't be playing. Failure of one player to do so just makes other players check many more times, so this isn't an unreasonable expectation. You could also set a 48 hour limit, as long as everybody is using the same limit. In the case of the 48 hour limit, you'd usually wait the full 48 hours regardless - except during the unlikely event that every single player responds early - so no player would feel the need to log in a day early (thus wasting his time just b/c one player won't respond).

4. The DM should roll all checks whenever possible. Especially passive ones or checks that the DM asks for (and most of these are supposed to be secretly rolled by the DM anyway, per d&d rules at least). If the check depends on a player's action, the player would naturally roll the check at the same time as he declares the action.

Just general suggestions. Steal and ignore at will.

Skjaldbakka
2008-07-22, 06:27 PM
2. Combat is going to be at least half of any rpg, even if smart players avoid unnecessary combat (and are awarded equally for such, as they should be).

This is a broad generalization, and is also false. In my experience, this depends entirely on the players. I've had several sessions of D&D, which, based on game mechanics, is 90% combat at least, in which initiative was not rolled. If you take other games like World of Darkness into the equation, which downplays combat in the mechanics (relative to D&D), and get the same sort of players, you might finish whole plot arcs w/o so much as a punch being thrown.

If you bring LARPs into the equation, you can have entirely non-combat characters that are considered to be powerful. Less the case for boffer larps, and more the case for say, the Camarilla.

Anyway, sorry to de-rail.

erikun
2008-07-22, 06:43 PM
One last thing, reguarding the speed modifier from page 2: the way it is set up, it would be far too easy for 3-5 players to use speed 3 weapons (or less) and just continuously attack an enemy while the DM (or player, if that is the target) is offline. Not that it's necessarily a bad idea, just that it could be used to eliminate the NPC's actions.

Also, it's a possible extraneous rule, but that would be better determined with playtesting.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-07-22, 07:33 PM
Okay, so let's get down to the topic that we've been dancing around and putting off: the magic system.

To be blunt, This is going to be probably the most critical aspect that has yet to be nailed down. We've all seen how 3.5 made non-magic users to be pretty much obsolete (and I do *NOT* want to debate this in this thread, if you have a problem with it, PM me). However, we don't want it completely nerfed either.

First, we need to figure out how people are going to put points into it, and what kind of skills will be involved, or if it will be an entirely different system from your skills.

In GURPS, individual spells were individual skills. Since we've got fewer skills to set as Core/Side, that just won't be possible. It seems to me like it would be best to list a given 'school' of magic as a skill you can take as a side/core skill. However, defining these schools is going to be a real challenge.

Here's some ideas I'm tossing out, just off the top of my head to get the ball rolling:

Set 1
Schools are pretty much identical to D&D schools: 8 schools, Abjuration, Conjuration, Enchantment, Evocation, Illusion, Necromancy, Transmutation, Divination.

Advantage: We're all mostly familiar with this breakdown
Disadvantage: Not even close to balanced. Case in point: Evocation vs Conjuration or Transmutation.

Set 2
Spheres, ala Mage: The Ascention: Corrospondence, Life, Matter, Time, Prime, Entropy

Advantage: Much more free-flowing
Disadvantage: Only 5 skills. Theoretically, you could take all of them as Core skills and be the ultimate mage.
Side-note: The point system I fleshed out earlier will almost HAVE to be used in conjunction with this to keep the power from getting out of control, with STEEP costs for more powerful effects. We all remember Mages who could turn vampires into lawn chairs with a simple Matter/Prime rote (since vamps are not alive, it doesn't need Life) with no save.

Set 3
Archetypes: Nature, Divine (holy), Elemental, Augmentation, Illusion, Metamagic (raw magical forces, like Force effects, countermagics, and the like), summoning (includes temporary creation), Imbuement (imbuing items with magical effects temporarily), Spirit (including healing, curing, inflicting, and basic necromancy effects)
Advantage: You can specialize in a given archetype farily easily (druid = Nature + Elemental + Summoning, Cleric = Divine + Augmentation + Spirit)
Disadvantage: I came up with it off the top of my head, so there's probably plenty of them

This is just plain Magic. If we want to open the door to Psionic/Ki effects... depending on how we do it, this could simply be flavor. A person purchasing Elemental could be born with an innate talent to control the elements, be a psionicist capable of manipulating the elements, be a wizard trained in arcane lore on elemental magics, or the Jade Emperor using Ki to manipulate elements. However, if we set things up more exclusive, it would get a lot more complicated.

elliott20
2008-07-22, 07:59 PM
in regards to skill broadness/tightness, I would say that we adopt a model that allows a bit of both by taking a page from 3.5 D&D. Basically, by using something that sort resemble feats.

so, while having say, 3d6 in swords makes you pretty decent at it, to do some of the more awesome maneuvers or just being more effective with a particular kind of sword, you'd take a feat with it. What we can then do, is basically just have guidelines for coming up with feats. Now, I think that to avoid the one-trick pony syndrome in D&D, when building the feats I think said feats should only give your character one improvement in combat effectiveness but in every other case simply expand the use of said skill.

in spirits of the century, stunts (which is basically feats) do several things
1. allows you to use one skill in place of another (use your weapon skill in place of say, an intimidation skill)
2. allows you to do something a little bit better (a +1 to +2 in certain circumstances)
3. by spending action points, you can do something with a wondrous effect. (like say, landing a more deadly blow by rolling up the damage)

I think we could try to follow a similar guideline. But we make sure that the bonuses do not stack on top of themselves over and over again.

In terms of magic, I would suggest we make the magic skill off of the same model. You want to be able to be proficient or even very skillful with magic? fine, take the skill. But to do something truly powerful with it, you need to take feats for it. And chances are, using these feats will probably start costing you action points left and right.

Skjaldbakka
2008-07-22, 08:06 PM
You could ues Mage: the Awakening
Time, Fate, Death, Matter, Life, Spirit, Mind, Space, Forces, Prime

mikeejimbo
2008-07-22, 08:25 PM
You could have five magic skills based on the classical elements plus Akasha, but then again that might be too few.

Skjaldbakka
2008-07-22, 08:58 PM
My homebrew setting uses Aether, Earth, Fire, Water, Air, Sun and Shadow.

mikeejimbo
2008-07-22, 09:06 PM
Oh, or you could use the classical Eastern-y elements, if you like Eastern flavor.

erikun
2008-07-22, 09:17 PM
Guys and gals, I really recommend against quantifying magic into a set number of schools/spheres/elements. What if your players want to run an ice mage, or a blood magus? What if they want to be a "magical martial arts" user, wielding flame strikes, water deflections, and air dodges? Ideally, this system would be able to apply to anything the GM and players could think up, so creating limits like in D&D or Mage - which are good in the structure of those games - would be counterproductive in this one.

Actually, that's why I ran my general-skills suggesting first, before getting into magic. If we think that Sword Attack and Sword Parry are good skills, and that Car Driving, Car Drag Racing, and Car Maintence are balanced, then magic (or even psi) skills would be much the same thing - a particular type of magic, and what it does. You could have Fire Arrows or Fire Swords or Flame Jets Out Of My Boots for skills, without specifying exactly what skills are allowed/restricted.

Another_Poet
2008-07-23, 12:42 PM
Whoa, lots of ground to cover!

Ericgrau: Welcome to the thread! I hope you can take a little time to read through some of what's already been outlined. Much of what you suggested in your post (such as a time limit for posting, and DM's being encouraged to roll for players) has already been covered. You'll also find that we are most definitely making our own system, not just editing an existing system. But frankly I want as many people as possible to participate in the discussion and design of the game, so once you get "up to speed" on what's already been discussed I hope you'll keep on posting :)

Skills: I think I support having feat-like skills. Most of these would be covered under the Martial skill category, with some under Mystic skills or elsewhere. We may have to rearrange some things semantically, since "skills" so far refers to things that require rolling d6's, and feats generally dont involve dice rolls. They just let you do something new that you couldn't do before. They're binary, rather than... um... d6-inary. So we might end up splitting them off from Skills altogether. Should we just use the term Feats for these? Manoeuvres? Techniques?

For skill "tightness", it's something we'll have to hammer out later. Using Erikun's example of driving a car (although there wouldn't be cars in a fantasy setting, but it works as an example): I would be tempted to put driving a car, driving a truck, amd drag racing all under Driving. Not because it's most realistic - it isn't - but because that way people get some bang for their investment. With only 7 3d6 skills and 12 2d6 skills, the guy who invests in Driving rather than Evasion or Healing deserves to get his money's worth. Or slot's worth, in this case.

To make the discussion easier I've broken the "tentative and incomplete" Skill List off into its own section in the first post. But I think we should wait on filling in each individual skill until we have the magic and combat basics more fleshed out.

Now, onto...

The oh-so-important and dazzling art of MAGIC!

I'd like to propose some groundwork here. Erikun has it right; we shouldn't view our magic system in terms of elements, schools, or disciplines (yet!). That's a flavour choice and should wait till we have a balanced method of creating and using spell effects. In fact, I would like to see that flavour left completely up to the players. Players should be able to describe their powers as ki, ritual ceremonies, pacts with ancestral spirits; whatever they want. If one of them is an alchemist working with the four Classical elements and another one is a geomancer using the Chinese elements, cool. And if along the way they meet a psychic, also cool. They all get the same number of build points and the same sandbox to play in.

But if we're not starting with schools or elements, what are we starting with? I'd suggest skills. If you look at the Skills section in the first post, there are three skill categories that will become relevant to our Magic system:

Casting skills. Pretty obvious. Roll a number of d6's to see how well your spell works.

Mystic skills. These need some further explanation, because the blurb we have so far is rather vague. My intention for mystic skills is that most of them will be useful to casters, and some will also be useful to warriors. For instance, metamagic techniques would help casters. Being able to sense murderous intention in a creature's heart might be useful to anyone. Being able to burn Breath to fuel spells and skills instread of Spirit will be super useful to casters, while being able to burn Spirit for a temporary recovery of Breath will keep warriors going in combat. These are the kinds of things that are covered under Mystic skills - not spells per se, but all sorts of handy abilities that will make spellcasting stronger.

Astral Skills. Some things don't exactly equate to "casting spells" but are still important to a good magic system. There are actually relatively few astral skills, and I think I can provide an exhaustive list:

1) Going out of body in this world
2) Entering the spirit world while out of body
3) Possessing another body
4) Sensing spirits & communicating with them
5) Allowing spirits to possess your body
6) Driving spirits out of a body (exorcism)
7) Bringing spirits into a place (summoning)
8) Driving spirits out of a place (banishing)
9) Enslaving a spirit
10) Freeing an enslaved spirit

None of these Astral skills are really spells per se, and few of them directly help in combat - but with creative and strategic use of them you can become quite powerful. Some casters might not take a single Astral skill, preferring to conjure pillars of fire or rain down lightning. Others may eschew casting altogether and work with their friendly or enslaved spirits to conrol a battlefield.

The nice thing about this framework is that it gives us an initial balance between warriors and casters:

Warriors need to invest in 3 skill categories: Weapons (for direct damage dealing & battelfield control), Mystic (to become more powerful), and Martial (to get more options for their character).

Casters need to invest in 3 skill categories: Casting (for direct damage dealing & battlefield conrol), Mystic (to become more powerful), and Astral (to get more options for their character.

Both also need to invest in a good enough balance of Evasion and the other skills to stay alive and useful.

(As mentioned above, individual characters may emphasise one of their three primary categories more than the others, but both fighter-types and caster-types have three main areas that offer them cool stuff).

So what that means is, if we can keep Casting and Weapons reasonably balanced against each other, and Martial and Astral reasonably balanced against each other, we're on the road toward a balanced system.

Let's start with Casting (I'd rather put off both Astral and Martial skills a little while, till we get the more basic stuff ironed out.) If Casting is going to be roughly balanced with Weapons, we can't have each individual spell be its own Casting skill. Each Weapon skill group includes several weapons and a few qualities. So each Casting skill should be a group that includes several spells and a few qualities. Here's an example:

Casting skill group: Darts
Darts are small bursts of energy that may resemble orbs or arrows. They spring from the caster's fingertips, racing toward their target along the shortest possible route. Darts typically inflict 1d6 points of damage with one energy type (heat, cold, electrical, etc.) and are resisted by Evasion, not Will.
Possible qualities: Short range, One-handed, One energy type

This is just an example, and any of the variables in it could change (how much damage it does, what kinds of energy we have in our game, etc.). The important thing is that it allows a caster to use various types of energy at short range and be opposed by evasion. This is basically a shortbow that can launch acid, and you pay Spirit points for the privilege. Another group might be a similar short-range one-energy spell, but one that manifests the acid directly on an enemy (so it would oppose with Will to suppress the effect, not Evasion to dodge it). We just have to build up enough groups that there are multiple useful battle effects.

Of course, if all spells are just permutations of "x damage, y range, resist with z" it gets boring quick. It loses that special feel. Those kinds of formulaic spells are perfect for having an easy "design your own" mechanic, but we need to spice them up with things like Dominate/Charm effects, levitation, turning poop into gold and the like.

It's a long road we have ahead of us for this part of the system, and this is the credo I would ask everyone to keep in mind:

Our job is to create a pool of diverse, unique magic effects with clear descriptions and clever names; an easy system for players to build more; and enough martial uses of Spirit that warriors can play too.

So with all that said, bring on the brainstorming, criticism, and suggestions!
:smallwink:
ap

Another_Poet
2008-07-23, 04:27 PM
'course I jut can't leave this thread alone for long... :smallamused:

I was thinking this over and here are a few possible Casting groups based on the type of effect one is seeking.

COMBAT CASTING SKILLS

Darts - Ranged magic attacks with an energy type. The energy comes from the caster's hand and flies toward the target, opposed by Evasion. Point cost scales with range and damage. Metamagic adds extra energy types or multiple targets.

Ruptures - Also ranged magic attacks with an energy type. The energy is called to manifest inside the target and bursting out of their body, opposed by Will. Point cost scales with range and damage. Metamagic adds extra energy types or multiple targets.

Touches - Melee magic attacks with an energy type. The caster lays his hands on the target, opposed by Evasion, and calls forth the destructive power. Cheaper than ranged attacks; scales with damage only. Metamagic adds extra energy types.

Blasts - Area of effect attacks with an energy type. The caster manifests a field of destruction, opposed by various skills (depending on the particular spell). Very expensive magical attacks; scales with damage, size, shape, and method of opposing. Metamagic allows sculpting the blast, sustaining the blast for multiple rounds, exempting allies from the blast, and adding extra energy types.

Obstacles - The caster manifests substances that hamper enemy movement, or twist existing terrain to do so. Generally cannot be opposed since it doesn't target living creatures, just terrain. Point cost scales with size of the obstacle and how much it hampers those trying to get through/around it. Metamagic may allow the obstacles to take on a mind of their own.

Charms - The caster charms enemies or allies to receive bonuses or penalties on certain rolls. Opposed by Will. Cost scales with duration, number of targets, how big the bonus/penalty is, and what types of rolls it affects.

Enchantments - The caster captures the mind of an enemy, altering its behaviour in some way. Effects can include sleep, fear, confusion, spastic behaviour, forgetfulness, idiocy, suggestibility, rage, changed moral outlook, bitter sadness, or even complete obedience to the caster. All effects are opposed with Will. Cost scales with duration, type of effect, and number of targets.

Curses - Powerful black magic effects that operate on the very core of the target. Curses are usually used outside of combat, with long preparation times in an effort to torture or murder important enemies at a distance. Curses include spells such as Reap, Scathe, Lower, Devive, Insanity, and Demonic Pregnation. Extremely expensive rituals opposed by a number of skills, depending on the spell. Cost depends on effect. (The spells named here have not been explained in this thread - yet - but are actual spell ideas floating around in my head that will hopefully make it into the game someday.)

NON-COMBAT SPELLS

Healing - Restores injured body parts through a slow infusion of magical power. Requires time and best done out of combat.

Miracles - The holy counterpart to Curses.

Transportation - This needs a better name, but things liek walking through walls, flying, and teleporting belong here.

Transmutation - Shapeshifting (self or others), changing materials into other materials, etc.

Assistance - Spells that help out by carrying things or accomplishing menial tasks.

DIVINATION - I don't think divination should be a Casting skill, since it isn't a spell. It should probably go under Mystic skills. Of course, scouting in spirit form or asking a spirit to scout for you (both Astral skills) would also do the trick.

Just ideas, will update more later.

ap

mikeejimbo
2008-07-23, 05:12 PM
'Darts' of course could be flavored as 'rays' if the caster wanted?

I just want to be able to shoot lasers out of my eyes.

erikun
2008-07-23, 05:28 PM
No, you have to throw magic knives with your eyes instead. :smalltongue:

Ah, thanks for mentioning my reference to skills. It helps me to see where the game is heading.

Anyways, I'd like to take half a step back and take about weapons. Not trying to be difficult, but if we're balancing Casting and Weapons, then we want both categories to be roughly equal. Plus, what I'm going to say will make a lot more sense with real-world weapons.

Now, when thinking of the "weapon categories", I think that classifying all weapons by how many attacks a round is a bit limited. Rather, classifying them by what the weapon can do is probably a better idea. For example, Polearms could be used for an attack, or could sweep to knock an opponent off balance. Swords can attack but can't sweep - they can, however, parry an incoming attack. Knives can't really parry, but you can use them in a grapple, allow with throwing them. Martial Arts can be used for attacking and grappling, but you can't really parry unless your opponent is less skilled than you.

Of course, these are sweeping generalizations that aren't necessarily true - sweeping with a pike isn't very practical, and you can deflect an attack with a knife. Still, by keeping them as generalizations, it will give people an idea of what they could do with each weapon.

Polearm: attack, sweep
Sword: attack, parry
Knive: attack, grapple, throw
Martial Art: attack, grapple, parry (less skilled attack)

Especially if we're going with one skill per weapon type, this'll give weapons a greater range of maneuvers than spells - probably good, as there really isn't any physical limit on magic like there is on weapons. Also, if a character wants to use an unlisted weapon, you just need to determine the properities. Want to use an Axe? That should be able to attack, along with "sunder" items easier than a sword. It probably can't parry or sweep at all, although specifically designed throwing axes could be thrown. Thus, the Axe group would include attack, sunder, and throw (throwing axe).

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-07-23, 07:31 PM
May I submit a suggestion?

How about delineating spell groups by effect? That way the flavor is entirely up to the player. Deal with specifics on a per-group basis

For example, Say I want to blast things. Call it chi blasting, call it evocation magic, call it psionic, whatever. It could be fire, it could be ice, it could be shooting pink vorpal bunnies. Basic point is, it does straight damage. Use modifiers as listed in my previous post about how much it takes out of you to generate a given effect power. The more powerful, the more it costs.


With this in mind, here's some basic generic groups:

Blast, Status Effects, Healing, Summoning, Augmentation, and illusion

In short, Blasting is instantanious damage, Status Effects cripple or 'debuff', Healing is also purifying and removal of status effects, summoning is longer duration than blasting, augmentation is buffing, and illusions mess with people's heads.

That way, for example, you could have a DBZ guy with Blast and Augmentation, as well as a bunch of martial arts skills, or your could have your typical 'batman wizard' with Status Effects, Summoning, and Augmentation. You could also have a Cryomancer who takes Blast, Status Effects, and Summoning. He can freeze opponents, do cold damage, or summon water/ice elementals.

That way we're trying to avoid delineating flavor, but the flavor needs some core rules to frame it, which is what we're trying to develop.

elliott20
2008-07-23, 09:26 PM
I like Shneeky's suggestion and would like to second that.

Another_Poet
2008-07-24, 09:24 AM
I also like Shneekey's suggestion. But Shneekey, I'm confused - is that different than what I suggested in post #74? As far as I can tell we're suggesting the same thing. Blasting would cover any blast whether cone, radius, etc.; fire, ice, etc.; if it's a blast, it uses the Blasting skill. Right?

I did leave out a couple of key spell effects like Illusions and Status Effects, just because I was in a hurry and didn't think of them. But other than that we're on he same page... I think?

And yeah, Mikeejimbo, it can be a ray, a flaming crystal... heck, you can say it takes the form of tiny phantom horses that gallop to the target on clouds of light.

Erikun, about weapons: right now they are not classed on how many attacks/round they get. There was one weapon group that has a "Rapid" quality but I think we should get rid of that quality. It's just not in line with the other ones.

As far as realism goes, I've seen polearm attacks that sweep, longsword techniques that disarm and trip, and if you're fighting with knives you can use all kinds of trips and disables because you're working in close. You can certainly parry unarmed - it's called a block.

So in my mind I was figuring you could take (for example) the Tripping skill/feat whether you use a shortsword, whip, lochaber or spiked glove. Realism isn't a huge priority for me, so I don't mind giving one special attack to each weapon, but my two questions for you are:

1) How do we decide which weapon gets what?
2) Is it going to make the game more enjoyable to do this?

(I'm not saying it won't necessarily, but I think it's worth asking.)

more later
ap

Skjaldbakka
2008-07-24, 10:24 AM
A note:

One of the reasons that magic is tricky to build into a system is that magic, and the way that magic functions, is a significant aspect of a setting. This is why wizards being broken never really bothers me in D&D, as I have always ripped apart the magic system and retooled it for the cosmology of my campaign setting.

I would recommend coming up with a loose structure, with several examples of ways you can change up the magic system based on the desired level of magic in the game. I would highly recommend looking at the Torg setting (the system is meh), or some other setting with multiple different realities that mix together, to get ideas for coming up with a good way to work magic.

I think Shneekey is on the right track. You want it to be effects-based.

mikeejimbo
2008-07-24, 11:51 AM
I would recommend coming up with a loose structure, with several examples of ways you can change up the magic system based on the desired level of magic in the game.

This is a good realization. An alternative is to present a number of different systems, but it would be a lot easier to provide a looser structure.

elliott20
2008-07-24, 01:31 PM
AP, I think you want to shy away from talking about cones, rays, etc simply for the reason that it promotes the usage of a grid board.

as far as weapons go, I think we need to first consider our system first. Are the mechanics of combat in such a fashion that we need to get into such close details like tripping, etc? The more abilities and the more stats you give weapons, the more detailed combat becomes, the more time it takes to run combat. So, even before we start writing down weapon stats, we need to consider how we're handling combat and all of the weird little options that go with it.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-07-24, 08:10 PM
Okay, first, to address AP:

It is different from my original suggestion because rather than try to define flavor (nature), or use the D&D thing, we're getting to basics: Effects.

Here's a comment I feel should be our mantra for creating this system:

Rules are for Effects

In short, we should strive to minimize any rules which touches on any flavor. Basic mechanics should be all the rules entails.

Now then, as for tripping/disarming/etc... I have an idea:

Since you can reasonabally trip while using any weapon (I myself have done it with bo staff, while fencing, and Legolas has shown us that even an archer can pull it off), rather than delineating certain weapon groups, delenieate it as something the character can do. For now, let's call it a 'Stunt'.

A Stunt affects a skill and lets it do something a bit different. For example, the stunt 'Trip' can be used with any melee attack to force an opponent to the ground on success. Another example would be D&D 3.5 metamagic feats. Generally, it either adds an additional effect to the action, or alters the effects of the action in some positive way.

How we handle stunts can be done several ways.

1) You get x number of stunts per Core skill and y number of stunts per Side skill, which can be used with those skills. Thus, if you had Fencing as a Core skill, you could pick up the stunt Disarm which you can use with Fencing. You would have to purchase it seperately for any other weapon skill.

2) Every character gets x stunts which can be used with any applicable skill. Thus the above person picks up Fencing as a Core skill AND gets the stunt Disarm. Say he looses his fencing weapon and picks up a heavy morningstar. He could still try to disarm with that morningstar. In game effect, he swings the morningstar at the weapon of his opponent rather than the opponent directly, and the force of the blow causes his opponent's weapon to fly out of his hand.

3) There is some method of purchasing stunts to be created later

Also, we have another set of options for 2 or 3 above:

a) Stunts may only be used with Core or Side skills only. The skill to pull off a stunt requires a lot of training in that particular weapon.

or

b) Stunts may be used with any skill that could concevibally be affected by the stunt. Training in a given stunt can be translated across the board.

mikeejimbo
2008-07-24, 10:49 PM
Shneeky gave me an idea. I don't know exactly how this idea comes from the post, but bear with me.

What if, we design a system of weapon design, rather than designing weapons? Like, you can 'buy' the 'ranged' property for your weapon, and it becomes a ranged weapon. Then you can apply the range you wish for the weapon (more expensive for longer range.) If you want to make it a thrown weapon, it's a bit 'cheaper.'

Naturally they would also have properties like 'melee' (which in my mind would be 'default') and 'unbalanced' (Which would really just mean it takes some time to re-ready or reload, so a crossbow that required a winch could be 'unbalanced'). They might have 'piercing', 'impaling' or 'crushing' damage.

Think about it- no flavor whatsoever! You can build a crossbow as an unbalanced ranged weapon that does 1 quantum of piercing damage, while a modern gun is a ranged weapon that does 3 quanta of piercing damage. (Or is it crushing? I'm not too up on my guns, but you get the picture.)

erikun
2008-07-24, 11:24 PM
Well, yes, you can trip just fine while holding a knife. You can also shove people around, or even throw them. However, you're not doing it with the knife. I wasn't trying to limit what a player could do while holding a weapon; rather, I was trying to describe what they could do with the weapon. Sure, you can trip someone while holding a sword, but you aren't really tripping them with the sword - not in the same way that you'd trip someone with a staff or a chain. So, if you're looking at tripping someone, you could use the "Trip" skill... or if you're any good with a chain, you could use the "Chain Weapon" skill (in addition to using it to attack).

I'm not trying to say we should include tripping effects in the game - just an example of why one weapon type would have "tripping" while another would not.

I'm kind of up in the air about Shneekey's stunts idea. On the one hand, it should be easy enough to work in - if you're spending build points anyways, you can just spend build points for the extra stunts. On the other, it adds another layer of complexity. We're trying to keep it simple, so that anyone who wants to use the system can do so easily. Plus, it starts bringing up odd questions - I want to grapple an opponent with my crossbow. Can I pick up the Grapple stunt for my crossbow? What about a ranged disarm (something seen in movies but unlikely in reality)?

Mikee: BESM has a similar system for designing virtually any weapon you could imagine. You chose the damage, the range, the AoE, the sideeffects, etc. The problem? It required a dozen pages to fully explain. It also wasn't very realistic. We're trying to simplify things for the GM and players; we're not trying to simulate swords that can cut buildings in half.

mikeejimbo
2008-07-24, 11:38 PM
Mikee: BESM has a similar system for designing virtually any weapon you could imagine. You chose the damage, the range, the AoE, the sideeffects, etc. The problem? It required a dozen pages to fully explain. It also wasn't very realistic. We're trying to simplify things for the GM and players; we're not trying to simulate swords that can cut buildings in half.

Aww, it was just an idea though. But I would not want a sword that could cut a building in half.

Another_Poet
2008-07-25, 09:07 AM
Okay Shneekey, I see the difference now.

What we need are charts that go something like this:

Spell-Building Chart (or, the Shneekey Chart)

Effect............................................ P-value
Range
Melee range
Short range
Long range

Damage per target
1d6 damage
2d6 damage
3d6 amage

Energy Type
Weapon (physical)
Heat
Cold
Caustic
Electrical
Sonic
Holy
Unholy
Untyped Magic

Special Modifiers
Add extra energy
Add status effect (see separate chart)
Add buff/debuff (see separate chart)

Area
1 target only
Small area
Large area

Resist...
Resisted by Will
Resisted by Evasion
Resisted by other skill
Cannot be resisted

Weapon-Building Chart (or, the Mikeejimbo Chart)

Effect.......................................P-value
Range
Melee
Reach
Thrown
Short
Long

Damage per attack
1d6
2d6
3d6

Held?
Empty-handed
One-handed
Two-handed

Reload time?
None (doesn't use ammo)
None (auto-reload)
One action
Two action

Special modifiers
+1 armour piercing
+1 to damage
+1 to attack
+1 to evasion
Can be used in place of a Martial skill
(Trip, Disarm, etc.)

Built of special material
(see separate chart)

Add enchantment
(see separate chart)

In either case, when building a new spell or weapon the most important thing is to correctly compute its p-value (power value). For spells this will end up determining how many BP it costs to know the spell and how much Spirit it takes to cast the spell. For weapons it will determine how many BP it costs to own the weapon.

Also important is to show it to the DM so he can make sure you did it right and he can decide what skill group it is based off of.

I've always liked the idea of something like this and it should form a nice basis for a spell and weapon creation system for use by the players.

However, in order to facilitate quick character generation (remember that's one of the main goals of PbP) and present a cool, flavourful game for newbies and the creatively challenged, there still has to be a list of existing spells and weapons for people to grab "out of the box". We know 90% of mages will want to be able to shoot fire at people, so we should have one or more spells for that already drawn up with cool names and descriptions. This kind of fluff opens up a a game to a wider audience, both by making it easier to play and by not requiring every single player to be highly creative.

I also question how useful such a system can be until we know how powerful each "effect" is. Should long range be worth twice as much as short range, or three times as much? Are heat and sonic equal, or should one cost more?

At some point we're going to need to actualy run test encounters and arbitrarily assign this stuff. When we do that we'll probably want to start with a relatively narrow pool of abilities (say, a swordsman, an archer and a fire-spell-shooter) and "price out" each effect one at a time.

I'm going to stand back for a little bit and let you guys continue to discuss, because I think a lot of good ideas are coming out of this discussion. I have a better picture at this point of how I'd like to see things work but I'm going to remain undecided a bit longer... keep it coming!

ap

Skjaldbakka
2008-07-25, 09:12 AM
It also wasn't very realistic. We're trying to simplify things for the GM and players; we're not trying to simulate swords that can cut buildings in half.

BESM is exactly as realistic as you want it to be. The "problem" with BESM is that it really isn't a complete game. It is more like a set of guidelines for designing a game. Which is a "flaw" that is shared by most effects-based systems.

BESM doesn't "have" swords that cut buildings in half. But if you want to create a setting in which you can cut a building in half with a sword, BESM can do that.


So, back on topic:

I don't think we should have "default" energy types. Either leave that as pure flavor, or assume that a magical attack deals "arcane" damage, unless a flaw is taken to make it an energy type that certain creatures would be resistant or immune to. Having a list of energy types defines the feel of the game a great deal, so I'd prefer to leave that open.

Also, I'd recommend having a 'default' setting (for which we can have a pre-written list of spells and effects). I'd reccommend something Final Fantasy-esque, since that is well known and covers a wide range of possibilities.

mikeejimbo
2008-07-25, 09:34 AM
Weapon-Building Chart (or, the Mikeejimbo Chart)

Effect.......................................P-value
Range
Melee
Reach
Thrown
Short
Long

Damage per attack
1d6
2d6
3d6

Held?
Empty-handed
One-handed
Two-handed

Reload time?
None (doesn't use ammo)
None (auto-reload)
One action
Two action

Special modifiers
+1 armour piercing
+1 to damage
+1 to attack
+1 to evasion
Can be used in place of a Martial skill
(Trip, Disarm, etc.)

Built of special material
(see separate chart)

Add enchantment
(see separate chart)


Yeah, that's exactly the kind of thing of which I was thinking.

elliott20
2008-07-25, 10:13 AM
I don't think we should have "default" energy types. Either leave that as pure flavor, or assume that a magical attack deals "arcane" damage, unless a flaw is taken to make it an energy type that certain creatures would be resistant or immune to. Having a list of energy types defines the feel of the game a great deal, so I'd prefer to leave that open.

Also, I'd recommend having a 'default' setting (for which we can have a pre-written list of spells and effects). I'd reccommend something Final Fantasy-esque, since that is well known and covers a wide range of possibilities.
I second this.

Having pre-defined damage types says something about a pre-defined setting. (Which is fine by me, to be quite honest, but not as generic) If we really want to do something like this, I would suggest we simply break it down into "physical" and "mental" damage to make things really simple.

As the setting becomes more fleshed out, you can always just go ahead and define more damage types. But of course this presents another problem, in that every time you introduce a new damage type, you have to configure how everybody else reacts to it. so, something to consider.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-07-25, 08:44 PM
Personally, I feel the 'default flavor' should be determined by the GM running the PbP game.

For example, a GM could decide the default flavor for a blasting spell is Fire. In this case, most mages running around throwing around damage would be throwing around fire damage. There would be schools of magic that did other things, but that would probably cost additional skill slots or additional points.

You can also include in the 'resist' list 'Harder to resist'. Basically, it increases the difficulty to resist the effect. It is cheaper than making it unable to be resisted, but more effective than a normal effect.

elliott20
2008-07-25, 11:02 PM
well, the reason why I would say give people a list of defaults to run with is so that it runs out of the box, nothing more. otherwise, yes, flavor should be determined by the GM

mikeejimbo
2008-07-26, 10:44 PM
I don't want to see this die. So what's next?

elliott20
2008-07-27, 06:16 PM
we brainstorm attributes for weapons and magic. after that we translate those attribute into game terms, and then after that, we assign values. And after that, we begin the arduous and tedious process of balancing p-values against each other.

erikun
2008-07-27, 06:34 PM
Should be give what we have a trial run?

Another_Poet
2008-07-28, 11:05 AM
Hi guys. Don't worry Mikeejimbo, I won't let the project or the thread die. This system is my baby. :smallbiggrin:

I've been giving some thought to the discussion of energy types and flavour. It's true that once you start naming energy types you're getting into a flavour issue... but I think that's good! I don't think PbP has to be totally generic. I think we should start by making a fantasy-specific, flavourful game that has lots of cool stuff to lure people into playing it. :smallsmile: And from there it is easy to make variations for other kinds of genres and sub-genres, or different settings within the fantasy genre.

I'm currently looking back over the last page and a half or so of ideas and trying to put something together that uses the best of everything. I think it might include the option of buying either individual spells (e.g. Flaming Arrow: short range, dart skill, 1d6 fire damage, fixed Spirit cost) or more flexible manifesting skills (e.g. able to manifest fire, tweak as desired and pay the appropriate Spirit cost). Obviously, just buying Flaming Arrow would be a lot cheaper than buying the ability to manifest any kind of fire spell, but also more limited. (Incidentally I'm starting to see why WotC offered both the wizard and sorcerer models of arcane casters).

Anyway, it might take me a couple of days to get it ironed out and post it. I'll try to do that by Wed or Thursday - after that I'll be camping and can't post again till next week.

Let's hold off a little bit on playtesting. We need at least a bare-bones magic & weapon system to test combat, but from there the process is pretty much what elliott20 said.

We also haven't decided for sure whether or not PbP should use a grid-type system for keeping track of combat, and if not, what to do about distance., etc. (I think the variable ranges suggestion has merit, but in the end may be as much DM bookeeping as just updating a grid). I'm also more open to grids in PbP since using this free software (http://gametable.galactanet.com/).

BTW it's really awesome having people who have taken this project on with a real interest. Next time I update the first post I'll be sure to give you guys credit by name (if for some reason you don't want to be listed in the first post, just let me know).

ap

Skjaldbakka
2008-07-28, 11:20 AM
That looks like it would require downloading, which isn't PbP friendly. I for one, have computer access at work (where I can't download things).

Another_Poet
2008-07-28, 11:23 AM
That looks like it would require downloading, which isn't PbP friendly. I for one, have computer access at work (where I can't download things).


Ah, good point.

And using a bunch of bitmaps/jpegs is a pain in the rear. It's too bad Shhalahr's system isn't publicly available (and a bit less buggy) as it cetainly does the trick.

Skjaldbakka
2008-07-28, 11:34 AM
Query:

If spells cost MP, shouldn't they be at least slightly better than a normal attack, which does not?

Actions occur in the order that players post. There needs to be a system to determine whether or not the storyteller gets to immediately post the NPCs attacks when combat is initiated. Otherwise, the NPCs will always attack the players first.

I'd recommend a variation on initiative.

For a non-skill based off-the-cuff version, just to give you an idea, here are my thoughts (assuming you don't like the post count version I posted before).

Each enemy rolls a d6. Each player also rolls a d6. If the players die roll is higher than the enemies, than his action pre-empts that action. The player does not have the option to roll his initiative die seperately (that would bog down combat). Justification for this is that fights are hectic, and actions occur nearly simultaneously.


Also, I'm rooting for "PostHaste" as the name.

OK- something else that I've played around with before. Never got around to finishing it, but meh.

There is a system that I worked with before, that while not designed for PbP, would probably adapt well. The reason for this is that success/failure is completely determined by the character's own stats.

Here is a basic run-down, and we'll see if there is anything you can steal/borrow.

Attacker Joe wants to hurt Defender Bob. Attacker Joe has a Melee skill of 15. He attacks, declaring how skillful of an attack he is attempting to make. Mechanically, this is the number of dice he rolls to attempt to succeed. He decided to make an expert strike, which is 4d6. He then rolls. If he rolls under his Melee skill, he succeeds, and Defender Bob either has to sacrifice his action to attempt to defend against the attack, rolling an equal number of dice against an appropriate skill of his own (perhaps even Melee as well, to parry, or Acrobatics to leap out of the way), or make a Stamina roll, rolling an equal number of dice to resist injury.

Since its PbP, you'd go ahead and roll stamina in any event, in case you fail your defense roll.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-07-28, 07:49 PM
Query:

If spells cost MP, shouldn't they be at least slightly better than a normal attack, which does not?
Excellent point! An action which requires additional cost will necessarily have to have more value than one which does not. For this, I present to you a stripped down version of 4e's 'daily', 'encounter', and 'at will' power system. Only instead of being per whatever, they all have a given cost to perform. 'Daily' skills would be without cost, for example: a basic sword attack. Some basic forms of magic might also be listed as 'cantrips', and thus effectively at no energy cost. However, Magic will bypass most physical defenses (ignores the Armor Value of armor, or just has an effect, such as Sleep, which does not care about armor), so it is inherintly more powerful than a sword attack, hence why it has a cost. There will also be 'Ki' abilities one can use with a blade to do even more awsomtastical things (see also: Tome of Battle, Book of Nine Swords) for a given cost.


Actions occur in the order that players post. There needs to be a system to determine whether or not the storyteller gets to immediately post the NPCs attacks when combat is initiated. Otherwise, the NPCs will always attack the players first.

I'd recommend a variation on initiative.
I agree with you as well, however we have a slight problem. Some players might not be able to play for a while, and combat will lag until they get a chance to make their post. This seriously lags combat to the point of making it undesirable.

I think we're getting around to an idea of Action Points. Every player gets a number of Action Points he or she can use, which are handed out on a daily/hourly basis on RL time once combat has entered, and are only good for that combat. So, for example, swinging a sword takes one action point. Every character gets x action points. Perhaps there will be a (very expensive) way to get more action points per day enabled later. So if you don't post for 2-3 days, and combat is still going, you've got a hell of a lot of action points you can spend. Powerful magics, for example, might often cost a number of action points in addition to a number of magic points. It takes a while for the mojo to get going. Likewise, some Ki abilities may well have to 'pay it forward', soaking up a number of action points in the future to represent recovery time.

Another_Poet
2008-07-29, 08:40 AM
Excellent point! An action which requires additional cost will necessarily have to have more value than one which does not. For this, I present to you a stripped down version of 4e's 'daily', 'encounter', and 'at will' power system. Only instead of being per whatever, they all have a given cost to perform. 'Daily' skills would be without cost, for example: a basic sword attack. Some basic forms of magic might also be listed as 'cantrips', and thus effectively at no energy cost. However, Magic will bypass most physical defenses (ignores the Armor Value of armor, or just has an effect, such as Sleep, which does not care about armor), so it is inherintly more powerful than a sword attack, hence why it has a cost. There will also be 'Ki' abilities one can use with a blade to do even more awsomtastical things (see also: Tome of Battle, Book of Nine Swords) for a given cost.

I think the idea that magic damage bypasses armour is what makes magic worth spending Spirit points on. If it ends up being too weak in playtesting, we can also adjust the damage dice.



I agree with you as well, however we have a slight problem. Some players might not be able to play for a while, and combat will lag until they get a chance to make their post. This seriously lags combat to the point of making it undesirable.

Initiative is simple: there is no initiative. The DM announces combat has begun. Then characters act in whatever order their players post. If the enemies ambushed the PCs the enemies all take their actions right away; if the PCs ambushed the enemies, the DM waits for the PCs to go before piosting enem,y actions. Most of the time the DM will just wait until about half the group has posted and post enemy actions in the middle of a "turn".

Open to abuse? Sure. But even a system with a very clearly defined initiative system like D&D can be abused if the DM gives enemies a surprise round every single combat. Every system works best when the DM isn't being a jerk.



I think we're getting around to an idea of Action Points. Every player gets a number of Action Points he or she can use, which are handed out on a daily/hourly basis on RL time once combat has entered, and are only good for that combat. So, for example, swinging a sword takes one action point. Every character gets x action points. Perhaps there will be a (very expensive) way to get more action points per day enabled later. So if you don't post for 2-3 days, and combat is still going, you've got a hell of a lot of action points you can spend. Powerful magics, for example, might often cost a number of action points in addition to a number of magic points. It takes a while for the mojo to get going. Likewise, some Ki abilities may well have to 'pay it forward', soaking up a number of action points in the future to represent recovery time.

This seems like it could be useful, and might get added in.

ap

Edit @ Skjald: I was all set to say, "yeah, but we've already got a way to resolve attack rolls," and then it hit me. Right now, Evasion is the most powerful skill and costs multiple skill slots. But if using evasion were to cost an action, it would be much weaker and maybe in line with the other skills. Either you waste an action rolling Evasion or you accept the Breath damage (as modified by armour). I wonder what others think of this idea?

Also, vote for Posthaste has been noted!

Skjaldbakka
2008-07-29, 09:31 AM
What I suggested isn't really a system to determine what order actions occur in, just a way to determine whether a player's action takes effect before an NPC's. Remember, the goal of a PbP system is to reduce the ping rate. If the DM has to post, then wait, and the post again, that is a bad thing. Ideally the DM only has to make one post for each 'turn'.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-07-29, 07:08 PM
What I suggested isn't really a system to determine what order actions occur in, just a way to determine whether a player's action takes effect before an NPC's. Remember, the goal of a PbP system is to reduce the ping rate. If the DM has to post, then wait, and the post again, that is a bad thing. Ideally the DM only has to make one post for each 'turn'.

A very good point. Forcing a reply post to every PC's post will defeat the purpose of this gaming system.

How about this: Every NPC has a certain number of actions per whenever real time elapses as well as every PC. GM runs all NPC's on the same post to conserve postings. That way, you can minimize posting requirements.

Skjaldbakka
2008-07-29, 08:09 PM
Actually, while that would be consistent with the action points idea, that wasn't the point I was trying to make.

Original Method:

DM-You come across three orcs, which attack [makes some rolls for their attacks].

Players- Take some damage, and then get to attack.

Ping Rate: 1

Solution #1:
DM- You come across three orcs.

Some Players: Do stuff.

SM- Orcs Attacks [makes rolls]

Some Players: Do stuff

Ping Rate: 2 in the first round, 1 in subsequent rounds.

Solution #2:

DM: You come across three orcs, which attack. Difficulty to interrupt is 1d6.

Players: Attack Orcs, each rolling to see if they go before the orcs, possibly killing one or more before they get to attack, thus saving the party some damage.

Ping Rate: 1

You could possibly have Initiative as a skill. Just keep in mind that Initiative isn't determining turn sequence, it establishing a difficulty to pre-empt another's action, if so desired.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-07-29, 08:58 PM
Hmm... you may be on to something, however that has to be carefully balanced or it would be even more overpowered than Evasion because you're pre-empting attacks rather than simply avoiding it.

Also, speaking of Evasion, how about this:

Basic evasion roll is passive and only works on one attack. You can also declare Evasion as an action, in which case, it is used on ALL attacks. Much like passive defense and active defense in GURPS.

Or even better, a passive Evasion roll will always be 1d6, regardless of skill. You can take it as a skill, then use it as an action to increase this.

Just throwing out ideas here

Skjaldbakka
2008-07-30, 08:59 AM
It shouldn't be too big a deal. In most cases, it won't matter, since your one action won't stop them from performing their action, unless they a) are a spoo or b) were pretty messed up to begin with

since you're rolling 1,2 or 3 d6 for an action, based on your skill, you might not have intiative as a skill, and instead make it a penalty for attempting to interrupt an action.

Example of how this would work:

Everyone rolls an initiative die with thier action each round. This die is always a single d6, and no skill can change this. Every action in each round is considered to occur simultaneously. That is, even if the result of one person's action is to kill another person, that person's attacks that round still occur.

Unless someone chooses to interrupt. If you choose to interrupt someone's action, you put a tag at the beginning of your action [interrupting Bob], and then roll 1 or 2d6. The number of dice you roll to interrupt is removed from your dice pool for your action. So if you roll 1d6 to interrupt, and you normally roll 3d6 to attack, you are instead rolling 2d6 to attack. You can't roll so many dice to interrupt that your action would have no dice, so you can't roll 2d6 to interrupt someone's action unless your interrupting action would normally have 3d6.

You might not necessarily be interrupting to attack someone either. Lets say an orc attacks a wounded ally, and his attack would kill them. The party's healer might attempt to interrupt the orc to heal his ally so that he survives.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-07-30, 09:17 PM
Still say that sounds pretty overpowering, plus possibly cludgy as well if someone already took the Breath damage, then all the sudden you just negated it.

EagleWiz
2008-07-30, 10:21 PM
We seem to be focusing on combat skills here, which is the problem with most Point based systems. If you take non-combat skills you will be less usefull then the rest of the party. Also the skill system sometimes runs into the problem of Bob the Swordsman who can do anything with a longsword, but hand him a 2-hander and he cant do squat. Or a mage who can throw increadably deadly fireballs but cant use a fire dart. I reccomend giving the players Primary Points that can be spent on Primary Stats (Evasion, Spirit etc.) and Magic Skills, Mele Skills (Including archery) and Noncombat Skills.
Each Primary Point spent on a Magic/Mele skill gives the player (Level Dependant) Secondary points, or double that for Noncombat Skills.
Also make some really cool powers require Noncombat Skills. If you want to summon and controll a uber-demon you need Knowledge: Magic and Knowledge: Uber-Demons.

Another_Poet
2008-07-31, 02:51 PM
Hi guys.

The magic system won't be up today, which means it won't be up till Monday. I'm off to the woods but in the meantime please feel free to keep discussing.

In response to EagleWiz's points, I think that maybe we should reward knowkledge skills such that each dice of each knowledge skill gives a static bonus to some aspect of combat.

For example, someone with 2d6 in the Biology skill (or Natural Science or whatever we call it) might get a +1 to attack rolls against animals and non-magical monsters. Someone with 3d6 might get +2. We don't have an exahustive list of what knowledge skills are part of the game, but when we do it should be easy to give a bonus (essentially an insight bonus) to combat based on each one.

Also, since combat will be less frequent in PbP, skills that help with traps, puzzles, obstacles and social situations will be valuable even if they do nothing in combat.

ap

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-07-31, 07:57 PM
We're developing the combat rules because combat is the most rules-intensive part of any game system. Running the rest of the game is fairly simple and straightforward, after all.

I would say that with the way you don't have to 'declare' your skills until you want to use them, that it will be almost impossible for any character to end up with 'skills you never use', because the player won't select them if they don't think it'll ever show up again (clearly, it would have shown up at least once or the opportunity to select it would never have come up).

And noncombat skill usefulness is entirely dependent on the GM. If you're running a combat-intensive game, then the other skills wane. But if you're running a 'deathtrap dungeon', where there are almost no 'combat' encounters, compared to allthe insane traps requiring entirely different skillsets to overcome, then noncombat skills become extremely valuable to the players.

Skjaldbakka
2008-08-01, 08:58 AM
Also make some really cool powers require Noncombat Skills. If you want to summon and controll a uber-demon you need Knowledge: Magic and Knowledge: Uber-Demons.

I second this idea.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-08-05, 10:50 PM
Hi guys.

The magic system won't be up today, which means it won't be up till Monday. I'm off to the woods but in the meantime please feel free to keep discussing.

In response to EagleWiz's points, I think that maybe we should reward knowkledge skills such that each dice of each knowledge skill gives a static bonus to some aspect of combat.

For example, someone with 2d6 in the Biology skill (or Natural Science or whatever we call it) might get a +1 to attack rolls against animals and non-magical monsters. Someone with 3d6 might get +2. We don't have an exahustive list of what knowledge skills are part of the game, but when we do it should be easy to give a bonus (essentially an insight bonus) to combat based on each one.

Also, since combat will be less frequent in PbP, skills that help with traps, puzzles, obstacles and social situations will be valuable even if they do nothing in combat.

ap

I think we;d better be careful about these 'synergy' bonuses, because a +2 in this game is actually VERY significant, about as much as in 4e, so we have to be careful that this cannot be abused.

Another_Poet
2008-08-06, 02:13 PM
I think we;d better be careful about these 'synergy' bonuses, because a +2 in this game is actually VERY significant, about as much as in 4e, so we have to be careful that this cannot be abused.


Yeah, I was rethinking that. Currently Knowledge skills are already "adjusted" to be more valuable because you get two Knowledge Skills for one skill slot. Plus presumably when you roll well your GM is telling you things like "Don't use Fire on this thing" or "You might not've guessed it, but this creature can probably understand what you're saying." So maybe let's leave off the direct combat bonuses from Knowledge.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-08-08, 10:30 PM
Yeah, I was rethinking that. Currently Knowledge skills are already "adjusted" to be more valuable because you get two Knowledge Skills for one skill slot. Plus presumably when you roll well your GM is telling you things like "Don't use Fire on this thing" or "You might not've guessed it, but this creature can probably understand what you're saying." So maybe let's leave off the direct combat bonuses from Knowledge.

Hmmm... that sounds like a winner. Non-combat skills might give non-bonus advantages in combat, like the D&D 3.5 ability to use Knowledge checks to realize what a creature's weakness is.

Another_Poet
2008-08-11, 01:45 PM
Check the first post for our magic system. The direct and indirect combat spells have been explaind in some detail, and the other types have been largely left alone for now. Still it's a pretty good amount to read, and I think it reflects what we've discussed here, but I'm still open to more suggestions.

I'm going to run some number-only tests this week or this weekend to get at least a ballpark for starting numbers, and then we can try some combat playests next week.

Also I've added many of you by name to the credits section in the first post. I feel like it's a pretty small gesture, but I hope you understand how grateful I am to everyone who's continued to post and has this stuff over. If I left you out, please let me know - believe me that it was unintentional! Likewise, if you don't want your name listed, let me know that too.

Also, call for help: eventually, we will want an online utility where you enter the variables of your custom spell, type in your cool name for it, and hit "enter" - then it gives you the Spirit cost and a nice neat spell description block, plus a URL you can show your GM. That way custom spells will be easy-peasy AND cheater-free. If anyone has the sort of programming skills needed to buil this sort of utility (I don't imagine it would be much more complicated than the 3.5 EL estimator at d20srd.org), please contact me!

ap

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-08-11, 08:38 PM
You would probably need to make the cost formulas to be able to write any kind of script to automate it. As it stands, there isn't enough information to make a script to automate spell creation.

One thing I foresee that could be a problem: 0 cost spells.

If you give discounts for things like Touch casting or extra action points to cast, then you're going to come up with people casting spells for 'free'.

Now, there's two ways to go about this:

a) 0 cost spells are no more effective than mundane weapon blows, and so shouldn't be a problem to the game (until someone point-jibes a really nasty one)

or

b) Rather than giving a straight minus, a touch spell could get 'upgrades' cheaper. Thus to increase damage by x would cost y for a ranged spell, but maybe only y/2 for a touch spell, making them more potent without giving them a mechanic for being free.

edit: If you have ANY means of applying a a negative modifier, you need to explicitly state that the cost of casting a spell CANNOT be below 0. That's to prevent infinite mana cheeze.

Another_Poet
2008-08-11, 09:18 PM
A) Yes, the script would be impossible without the specific numbers, which we don't have yet. But if there is anything I have learned about getting tech people to do a pro-bono project, it is ask early and ask often. So if you know anyone with the necessary skill, please pass on the request :)

B) I don't think there should be zero-spirit spells at all, so I'd go with a rule stating something like, "If building a custom spell would result in a spirit cost of zero or lower, instead take the minimum spirit cost, which is x."

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-08-12, 10:02 PM
A) Yes, the script would be impossible without the specific numbers, which we don't have yet. But if there is anything I have learned about getting tech people to do a pro-bono project, it is ask early and ask often. So if you know anyone with the necessary skill, please pass on the request :)

B) I don't think there should be zero-spirit spells at all, so I'd go with a rule stating something like, "If building a custom spell would result in a spirit cost of zero or lower, instead take the minimum spirit cost, which is x."

I dunno. If you have a spell which does the same damage as a weapon, and also checks vs Evasion, just like a weapon, why not make it free to use, like a weapon? Similar in concept to Reserve feats or At Will powers in 4E

By that same token, however, I can certainly understand not having free magic.

Another_Poet
2008-08-13, 08:29 AM
I think one reason is making sure warriors can shine. Warriors can't imitate a Dart spell with their greatsword, even if they wanted to pay Spirit for it; there's no reason why mages' Dart skill should be able to imitate a greatsword. Whichever skill you choose you get a fixed range of abilities, so that the two are more even.

Of course, there could be feats for either or both.

The other thing too is the can of worms problem - once you have some instances where mages can pay 0 Spirit to cast a spell, you're going to see it exploited more and more.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-08-13, 07:07 PM
I think one reason is making sure warriors can shine. Warriors can't imitate a Dart spell with their greatsword, even if they wanted to pay Spirit for it; there's no reason why mages' Dart skill should be able to imitate a greatsword. Whichever skill you choose you get a fixed range of abilities, so that the two are more even.

Of course, there could be feats for either or both.

The other thing too is the can of worms problem - once you have some instances where mages can pay 0 Spirit to cast a spell, you're going to see it exploited more and more.

A warrior's greatsword cannot imitate a mages' Dart skill, but a warrior CAN pick up Throwing as his primary weapon skill setup, in which case he could well be using Darts to throw around, very similar to magically conjuring and hurling magic darts. Mechanically, both do the same damage, both attack Evasion, and both are ranged. Why should it cost the Mage to do something a Warrior can do for free?

I do agree that allowing free magic is going to see people trying to exploit it. And it is a maxim that any given set of Rules Lawyers and Optimizers will be able to exploit any given mechanic in ways the original creators never intended, therefore free magic should probably be a BAD thing. However, if magic isn't free, then it needs to have a mechanical advantage to mundane weapons.

Another_Poet
2008-08-13, 07:39 PM
I do agree that allowing free magic is going to see people trying to exploit it. And it is a maxim that any given set of Rules Lawyers and Optimizers will be able to exploit any given mechanic in ways the original creators never intended, therefore free magic should probably be a BAD thing. However, if magic isn't free, then it needs to have a mechanical advantage to mundane weapons.

There is a mechanical advantage to magic.

With any of the strike magic skills outlinec so far, a mage can (and most often will) manifest some kind of energy to deal the damage. That means the damage bypasses armour.

If she wants to, a mage can use a spell that deals weapon damage (say, manifesting a rain of arrows) and that will be reduced by armour value. But a smart mage shouldn't be doing that often.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-08-13, 10:10 PM
There is a mechanical advantage to magic.

With any of the strike magic skills outlinec so far, a mage can (and most often will) manifest some kind of energy to deal the damage. That means the damage bypasses armour.

If she wants to, a mage can use a spell that deals weapon damage (say, manifesting a rain of arrows) and that will be reduced by armour value. But a smart mage shouldn't be doing that often.

I have an idea to prevent 0 damage spells, yet give a balance of effect on all effects:

Damage modifiers.

Simply put, your base magic damage that ignores armor spell does x

If it is a physical effect that Armor will help against, it will do x* 1.5

So instead of reducing cost, we're amplifying effect.

Another_Poet
2008-08-13, 10:43 PM
I have an idea to prevent 0 damage spells, yet give a balance of effect on all effects:

Damage modifiers.

Simply put, your base magic damage that ignores armor spell does x

If it is a physical effect that Armor will help against, it will do x* 1.5

So instead of reducing cost, we're amplifying effect.

That seems quite reasonable.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-08-16, 07:52 AM
We may also want to start ironing down Action Points as something which is given to every player and most NPC's as a way of balancing out post speed to keep games flowing.

Basically, the GM determines how many AP's are handed out per whenever in RL, depending on how fast he wants the game to flow. Every time you get an AP, you can spend it on an action. Or, if you can't get on the computer in that time, when you DO get to the computer, you have that many action points saved up to use at once.

For example:

GM has declared 1 AP per 6 Hours. This equates 4 AP/day. If I had frequent access to the game, I could post one action every six hours right as soon as I got one. Or, if I couldn't get online in two days, I'd have 8 AP to use.

Certain maneuvers or magic may require additional AP, or require a set number of AP after the action, to be able to perform. Generally, these actions are particularly powerful, so require a buildup/cooldown.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-08-19, 07:30 PM
Also, in the OP, it states that you do not intend to copywrite the game.

I feel that we should use an OGL, much like the d20srd website, that has all the information in it. That way no one else can steal it then try to sue us for using 'their' game system without paying them for it. Also, you can stick in a 'core rules' clause, specifically stating that these are the core rules, if you distribute them, they must be transmitted as a whole, and full credit must be given.

It just protects everyone involved from hassles, and gives a clear legal allowance to use the stuff without profiting from it.

Another_Poet
2008-08-20, 08:49 AM
Shneekey - Yes! If and when this system is fleshed out enough to constitute a workable game, that's exactly what we should do with it.

And on a splitting-hairs note, actually anything you write is automatically your copyright. That's the point of the copyright info in the first post - the rules I'm putting in that first post are officially my writing (and I own the copyright to them), but credit is being given to all the other contributors and I will not sell those rules for profit.

Likewise, each poster owns the copyright to the content of their individual posts.

Ain't life grand?

**ALSO:** Did some numbers-running (and a "secret" playtest, adapting the rules to an outer-space one-shot for my IRL group who didn't know they were playtesting the PbP system, bwahahaha). I think we're going to have to rule that you can't Take Mean on Evasion, ever (although the DM can if she's forcing your character to act in your absence). Otherwise some characters/creatures are completely invulnerable to other characters/creatures, and swarms of weak creatures have no meaning at all.

I also think the damage and armour needs to be tweaked, but I'll run some more numbers and then we can do a playtest of our own.

ap

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-08-20, 07:26 PM
Shneekey - Yes! If and when this system is fleshed out enough to constitute a workable game, that's exactly what we should do with it.

And on a splitting-hairs note, actually anything you write is automatically your copyright. That's the point of the copyright info in the first post - the rules I'm putting in that first post are officially my writing (and I own the copyright to them), but credit is being given to all the other contributors and I will not sell those rules for profit.

Likewise, each poster owns the copyright to the content of their individual posts.

Ain't life grand?

**ALSO:** Did some numbers-running (and a "secret" playtest, adapting the rules to an outer-space one-shot for my IRL group who didn't know they were playtesting the PbP system, bwahahaha). I think we're going to have to rule that you can't Take Mean on Evasion, ever (although the DM can if she's forcing your character to act in your absence). Otherwise some characters/creatures are completely invulnerable to other characters/creatures, and swarms of weak creatures have no meaning at all.

I also think the damage and armour needs to be tweaked, but I'll run some more numbers and then we can do a playtest of our own.

ap

Yea, if a guy with a Core skill of Evasion (for 2 Core skill slots) takes 'mean', he'd have what, a 10? That's impossible to beat on 1d6, and darn near on 2d6. Unless...

Oh, I gots me an idea on how to limit cheezyness of Evasion...

Everyone has a 'passive' evasion of 1d6. If you take Evasion as a side skill, it lets you make it as an 'active' roll, meaning you're deliberately dodging around instead of attacking, giving you a 2d6, but it takes up your action. As a 'core' skill (which takes up TWO core slots), you have a 'passive' of 2d6, and an 'active' of 3d6. A 'mean' on 2d6 is still something like 7, which still cannot be attained on 1d6, but at least 2d6 and 3d6 have good odds of hitting it.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-08-27, 07:18 PM
So, what's next, defining the other three types of magic, then an alpha playtest to see where the numbers need to fall?

Another_Poet
2008-08-28, 09:35 AM
Actually i think the rough playtest should probably come first. We'll need to determine what the value of combat numbers is before we can hinge together all indirect/support magic.

Sorry I haven't been updating this. Project still lives, just extra busy. Will try to be more attentive...

ap

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-09-03, 02:32 PM
Well, I can see your point, the power of non-damaging effects is going to have to be scaled with damaging effects, whatever we do, however I think that we will find that non-damaging effects will have an entirely different effect on the game.

The reason why Batman Wizard almost never uses any 'blast' is because there are so much more useful things to do for him, because any decent charger build is going to out-damage him on single target, and any melee battlefield control build is going to even be able to out damage him on multiple opponents (Chain Whip + Combat Reflexes, + Great Cleave).

The reason why the Batman Wizard is so overpowered (and PLEASE, let us NOT get into that debate) is because he can shut down opponents to let his allies turn them into a greasy stain, and because it almost negates any concievable threat to the party.

Thus, value of non-damaging effects such as status effects will automatically ramp with damage overall. If the opponent is going to be able to drop someone with a single hit, then sticking him in place keeps him from being able to do that. This is that much damage the bandaid box doesn't have to heal. Also, it gives the melee people time to get into the most favorable position, maximizing ally damage. So really, non-damaging effects will ramp on use when damage ramps.

For this reason, I highly suggest that we at least get a basic outline of nondamaging effects, because not everyone likes playing a 'blaster'.

Skjaldbakka
2008-09-03, 05:51 PM
and swarms of weak creatures have no meaning at all.

Taking mean on evasion is a great way to reduce the ping rate. One way to fix the above problem is to have some kind of gang-up rule. I still like the idea of having a fixed Evasion value that is determined by your Evasion skill. I'd rather have a depreciation system, where the fixed evasion stat is reduced with each attack (and is refreshed as an action, perhaps), or give some kind of bonus to groups attacking the same target within X period of time.

Another_Poet
2008-09-04, 10:02 AM
Yeah, the ping rate thing is good thinking. I worry that a depreciating Evasion is almost as much DM work to track as if the DM simply rolled Evasion for every character to speed things up.

Maybe enemies (only) should score an auto-hit on a natural 6, so that PCs taking 7 or 10 can still be hit by enemies with 1d6 attacks.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-09-07, 11:14 AM
Yeah, the ping rate thing is good thinking. I worry that a depreciating Evasion is almost as much DM work to track as if the DM simply rolled Evasion for every character to speed things up.

Maybe enemies (only) should score an auto-hit on a natural 6, so that PCs taking 7 or 10 can still be hit by enemies with 1d6 attacks.

How about this:

Every swing aimed at you that is checked vs a defense (including Evasion) reduces that defense's roll by one until the next time it is rolled.

Thus:

I took Evasion as a Core skill. I've got 3d6 in Evasion. Go me!

DM calls combat. I roll a 14 for my Evasion! Sweet, I don't have to worry about 1d6 or 2d6 attacks!

Six 'mooks' charge me, each swinging 1d6 skills. All six miss me, but my Evasion is now down to 8.

It's my turn again. I roll my Evasion on my turn, and it turns up a 9. Still not too shabby.

So the six mooks attack me. First three will miss, but that drops the evasion down to a 6. The next mook blows his roll, but that brings it down to a 5. The next mook makes it and scores a blow, and so does the next. I've taken two hits.

Next turn, I roll my evasion again, wincing in pain, and come up with ....

This simulates the getting overwhelmed by numbers part of combat that is entirely realistic.

Another_Poet
2008-09-08, 08:53 AM
That... sounds great. That might be just what we need!

Regarding indirect combat magic, would someone want to start making a list of all the possible effects? Or, really, everyone can start brainstorming. List as many effects as you can as we can start organising them into skill groups at least.

ap

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-09-08, 07:19 PM
Okay, here's what I can come up with so far:

1) Object Creation/Summoning. Things like summoning a steel wall between you and your opponent... or a Celestial Dire Badger. Web also qualifies.

2) Terrain Altering. This can be anything from Transmute Rock to Lava to Wild Growth to anything else that affects the battleground. This may actually fall under the previous heading

3) Illusions. If it looks/sounds like it's there, but it's not (or vice versa), it goes here.

4) Buffing. Make your buddies better!

5) Inflict Status Effect. This would be things like Sleep, Hold Person, Slow, and the like.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-09-11, 01:03 PM
I would further like to point out that any sort of penalty to a stat is going to CRIPPLE someone, so I don't think that should be an allowed effect. Heck, even influencing a save by 1 is HUGE.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-09-21, 12:16 PM
What, does no one else have any ideas for non-damaging effects?

Also, at this point we need to start considering what kind of 'board' we will be using for this game. Let's face it, a good portion of the non-damaging effects will be stuff like area effect battlefield control and summoning of objects.

Can we work on trying to figure out an easy way to make a grid or something for characters to move on so there is no dispute along the lines of 'No, I wasn't over at a, I was at b'?

And instead of 'Terrain altering' on my previous post, we could just broaden it to 'Alteration', which includes everything from changing shape/form to Rusting Grasp and Warp Wood to Transmute Rock to Lava. Anything that is not moved or created, but changed from it's original form falls under this heading.

Another_Poet
2008-09-30, 10:40 AM
Okay, thanks everyone for carryign on somewhat while I was so busy the last month or so. Here are my thoughts on balancing Combat Support Magic.

COMBAT SUPPORT EFFECT (from strongest to weakest)
description


SAVE OR DIE
Spells that annihilate the character on a "pass/fail" basis.

SAVE OR WRECKED+
Spells that completely remove character from combat, but if their allies win, they can still be saved. +Includes many mind control spells.

LOST ACTIONS+
Spells that completely rob you of the ability to act in combat - paralysis, sleep, etc - but which could be healed/banished in combat or have a fixed duration, so they are not necessarily "Save or wrecked" spells. +Includes many mind control spells.
Gained actions would be valued equally as a buff spell for allies.

PENALTY TO EVASION/WILL*
Spells that lower a character's Evasion or Will score, and which can be cast over and over. Nastier if repeat castings are stackable, doubly nasty if they are self-perpetuating (I lowered you Will score! Now I'll do it again - roll Will to avoid!). *Many poisons and status effects will fall into this category.
Bonus to Evasn/Will would be valued equally as a buff spell for allies.

PENALTY TO MULIPLE SKILL GROUPS*
For example, "This spell saps the stregnth from your muscles. Anything involving muscle strength is at a -4 penalty." That would impact mele attacks, many ranged attacks, Athletics, and probably other skill groups as well. Ouch. *Many poisons and status effects will fall into this category.
Bonuses to multiple skills would be valued equally as a buff spell for allies.

PENALTY TO A SINGLE SKILL GROUP*
For example, "This spell erases your memory of your years of sword training. The weapon in your hand feels like a strange tool you've never used before, -4 penalty to Sideswords." But you can drop the sword and use your bow at no penalty. *Many poisons and status effects will fall into this category.
A bonus for a skill would be valued equally as a buff spell for allies.

PARTIAL ACTION LOSS
For example, "Roots grow out of the ground and wrap around your ankles, holding you in place. No Move Actions.
An enhanced action would be valued equally as a buff spell for allies.

ARMOUR ADJUSTMENT
Spells that lower your armour value.
Increased armour value would be valued equally as a buff spell for allies.

DAMAGE TO SPIRIT
Spells that take away Spirit points rather than Breath points.

OBSTRUCTIONS
"A hedge springs from the ground, blocking your path to the villain. You'll need to either cut through or go around." This is similar to partial action loss, but not as bad. If you can fly, burrow, jump or rapidly climb, maybe that hedge isn't an obsruction at all.


That's my approximate ranking of these effects. Let me know if you think some are in the wrong place and should be bumped up/down. Obviously that depends on comparing apples to apples - if you're imagining a -2 penalty to evasion, then compare that with a -2 penalty on multiple skill groups and a -2 penalty on a single skill group.

There are also some special cases:


SUMMONED MONSTERS would be priced based on their own P-value, with some small adjustment based on their loyalty.

ILLUSIONS would be priced as the effect they pretend to be, with some discount because they aren't real. For example, if the hedge spell given as an example under "Obstructions" above costs x, an illusory hedge wall might cost 80% of x. If it succeeds it has the exact same effect as an actual hedge wall, but it has a chance of being found out so it is cheaper.

INVISIBILITY should probably be priced as some major bonus to multiple skills (ie stealth skills) even though it doesn't give any actual bonus - rather it hands the character an auto-success on such skills.

UTILITY SPELLS would ideally be priced based on the p-value of the average trap they can bypass. For example, a spell that allows flight can bypass pit traps, so what is the p-value of the average pit trap? But in practise I think this would be very hard to calculate and would verge somewhere between arbitrary and laughable. So they might have to not be priced at all till after playtesting.

DIVINATION will probably have to be priced with utility spells rather than combat support spells, even though it may have some combat application.

erikun
2008-09-30, 06:42 PM
Wow, I have my name on this thing? I guess that means I should be posting in it more than I have been. :smallwink:

Seriously, nice to see this still going. Here's just a couple of points I'd like to address today.


Evasion and Defenses

Good point about Evasion; as written, most characters can't hit someone with Evasion as a core or side skill. Then again, someone with 1d6 has basically no training, so I'm not too worried about them having a hard time hitting. Making it at least possible should be available, though.

ShneekeyTheLost has a good idea; World of Darkness uses a similar method. That is, every time the character is attacked, their defense drops by one point, and it resets whenever they take an action. This could cause problems if someone disappears for several days, though, as they could be hit by several attacks and have their defense reduced to 0. :smallconfused: Although it would encourage people to check the game at least daily.

I also like the idea of using an "active" evasion as an action, primarily to keep injured people alive. We don't have any rules yet for fighting defensively in combat, and this seems to work. Actually, if we're using Action Points, I thought up a variant system to determine defense.

Alternate System:
Characters have three different defensive stats, Passive Evasion, Passive Will, and Active Defense. (Needs name changes.) Passive Evasion and Passive Will work like their usual counterparts, except that they are flat numbers, starting with 3. You spend build points to raise Evasion/Will like you would your other stats.

Active Defense (dodge? avoidance?) is a skill instead. It gets increased like any other skill. Instead of an attack, a character can decide to "go defensive" and roll their Active Defense. (1d6 unless trained higher) Their defenses become either their Evasion/Will or the rolled Active Defense, whatever is higher.

The character's defense drops by one each time they are attacked. If they have an Evasion of 4 and a Will of 2, they end up with Evasion 1/Will 0 after 3 attacks. The defense values reset once the character takes an action.

Possible Problems:
If we're using AP values, then a character could spend all their AP attacking, then use the last AP for Active Defense. Then again, if they're trying such a trick, then they'd be subject to 2 (or more) attacks from each enemy. I'm not sure if it would balance out or not.


"Free" Magic Spells

I'm not sure I agree with the "no free magic" idea. The main problem is that most characters have only 6 Spirit. If you require all spells to have a minimum of 1 Spirit, that seriously cuts down on the casting.

If we're using the AP variant, we could just rule that spending +1 AP reduces the cost by 1 Spirit, down to 0. This'll let casters fire off spells (slowly) while giving them a "backup" reserve when needed.

Free Magic Variant
The way I see it, you should be able to cast "free" spells, just as long as they aren't any better than standard attack. Otherwise, you'll end up with the lv.1 D&D magic-user problem, where you only have one or two spells before you're plinking people with a crossbow. I don't know about you, but that doesn't sound like a "caster" to me. Plus, you'll need to boost your Spirit to obscene levels to make a worthwile caster.

So, possibly this system:

If a spell produces a physical weapon and uses another skill to attack (ie. Throwing skill to hit with a summoned rock), then it should have a base 0 Spirit. (1 for the physical attack, -1 for requiring another skill)

If the spell produces a physical weapon but doesn't use another skill to attack (ie. creating a rock and magically hurling it at someone), then it should have a base 1 Spirit. (1 for the physical attack)

If the spell produces a non-physical weapon that uses another skill to attack (ie. flaming sword), then it should have a base 1 Spirit. (2 for energy attack, -1 for requiring another skill)

The basic idea being that, if you need two skills to make it work, then it should come out cheaper. While a swordsman will need just their Melee skill, a caster would need both Melee and Spellcraft (of whatever) to use the same weapon. Or they'll need to burn through Spirit to keep attacking like that.

Of course, if we're going with the AP variant, then the caster can just spend more AP for the same issue. It lets them spend time "charging" attacks for a really big bang.


Okay, I think I've rambled enough for now. You were mentioning a playtest?

Skjaldbakka
2008-10-08, 11:35 PM
hmmm... playtest. I could be all over that right now. Should probably go over the system and get a overview of the system. Maybe even see if we can get a character creation guide together. I highly recommend everyone interested in the system go ahead and make a character, as I have seen quite a few bugs crop up and/or get worked out during character creation for homebrew systems I have worked on (I really ought to finish working the kinks out of those).

I am now working on Tristan:





1st note- we should probably set some guidelines for starting buildpoints, based on desired power level.

Step 3: Arms

Before the Game:

Step 1: ID
Tristan is an orphan that lives off the streets, relying on his wits to survive. He's always dreamed of being a knight, although that is above his station, and out of his reach.

Step 2: The Tetrad
Breath 6
Spirit 6
Evasion 3d6
Will 2d6

Step 3-4: Buy your weapons and armour (if any) using build points.
Tristan doesn't have any possessions, so he doesn't have any weapons or armor. Also, I'm still not sure how weapons are done. Lets give Tristan a wooden sword. I'll let Another Poet show us how to stat that.

During the Game:
Step 5: Buy your spells (if any) using build points.
Tristan isn't a spellcaster. Someone else will have to post one so we can test that out.

Step 6-7: Spend any remaining build points by buying special abilities, extra gear, or modifiers to your skills. You can also save build points as XP

Step 8: Decide which skills are your core and side skills.

Core Skills:
Evasion
Evasion
Thieving
Stealth
Knowledge (Herladry and Street Smarts)
Bluffing
---

Side Skills:
Evasion
Evasion
Evasion
Will
Weapon (Sideswords)
Weapon (Improvised -
---
---
---
---
---
---

Coke_Can64
2008-10-10, 07:28 PM
Apologies if I hijack this but I've decided to roll in a character and see what I get :smallsmile:.

Ignore this, go to post #171 in this thread on page 6.

----------------

Name: Craeldon


Step 1: ID
Craeldon is an apprentice monk who has been sent out of the temple of (insert diety here) to learn about the world.
He has begun his mission to hone his already decent skill at martial arts.

Step 2: The Tetrad
Breath 6 + 0
Spirit 6 + 1 [The + for this will be more than the + for breath, if any.]
Evasion 2d6
Will 3d6

Step 3+4: Possessions & Armour
[No melee weapons and minimal armour, possibly just clothes.]

Fists (0H) [1d6/1d6+Str Mod/2x 1d6] [What *is* the str mod mentioned in "Boxing" weapon anyway?]

Clothes +0 AV [<- I guess...]

During the game.

Step 5: Spells Etc.
[Uh, lets see if this comes out good.]
- Inner Strike - Melee, 1d6 Physical, Damages spirit, 1 target, Will to resist?

[^ Unsure damage type and SP cost]

Step 6: Build point's lacking?
[Uh, don't know the limit so...]

Step 7: Spare Build Points
[No limit means an infintite amount! :smalltongue:]

Step 8: Skilling

Core:

Will
Weapon: Boxing
Martial: Wresting
Atheletics
---
---
---

Side:

Evasion
Evasion
Evasion
Mystic (??) [Unsure, is for monk "spells"]
Casting (??) [As above]
Weapon: Thrown
Weapon: Improvised (---) (---) (---)
Climbing
Knowledge (Religion) (---)
---
---

[All ---'s are TBA as per the game rules]

----------------

Notes are included in []s.

I guess we could gloss over dieties etc. for now, but I must have missed the magic classes (Ho ho, no puns here sir! :smalltongue:) required to cast these types of spell.

Tell me if I'm missing something.

EDIT: Curses, the window is wigging out my nice looking lines... Fix'd.
Edit edit: Removed stuff to read better, seems that the forum stretches and contracts at will. O.o

Skjaldbakka
2008-10-10, 08:16 PM
That is really hard to read, the way it is formatted. Could you maybe get rid of the table?

I think we are at the chargen phase of playtesting at this point.

Coke_Can64
2008-10-10, 08:32 PM
Fixed. Though now something else is gonna mess up or that I'd forget something important :smallamused:. Meh.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-10-10, 09:53 PM
Okay, I'll go ahead and write up a character too:

Name: Maelous Arashi

Step 1: Maelous was born a peasant, and was quite content to remain so. However, when he started having nightmares of being burned alive, only to wake up and find his house on fire, his parents were fearful, calling himself 'demon-posessed' and 'cursed'. Driven from his home, nearly starving, he joined a gypsy band, and learned how to control his inborn talent for elemental wrath, as well as picking up the Gypsy's fine disregard for the common law.

Step 2: The Tetriad

Breath: 6
Spirit: 6 +(May be spending a bunch here)
Evasion: 3d6
Will: 3d6

Step 3 & 4: To be completed when we get an idea of how many BP a starting chara gets during this playtest

Step 5: Skills:

Core:
Evasion
Evasion
Will
Dart
Blast
-
-

Side:
Evasion
Evasion
Evasion
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

Notes: Since playtesting is used to determine the stability of a game, I'm deliberately trying to 'break' the system, create a character almost impossible to affect who has a stupid amount of damage output. Basically, I'm being a fairly poor version of the CharOp board. That way, we can determine just how OP (for example) Evasion is, and see how we need to temper it.

Another_Poet
2008-10-16, 09:42 AM
New Proposed Action & Evasion System.
Each character gets 3 actions per round. Normally these actions are either moving or attacking. (There will probably be lots of other things that come up as well - drink a potion, etc.)

Players can save their actions to use throughout the round in multiple posts, but beware! When the DM posts "/round" all unused actions are lost.


Each round you roll Evasion, or take mean on Evasion; this does not use up one of your three actions. If you don't roll it, the DM assumes you take mean.

If you do not like your Evasion score you can spend actions to goon Total Defence. Spend one of your three actions and you can reroll your Evasion with a +1 bonus. Spend two actions anreroll it with a +2. Spend all three of your actions and you an do nothing but guard yourselfm, rerolling Evasion with a +3 bonus. You can take mean on your reroll, if you want. The only catch is that you have to declare Total Defence as your first action(s) for the round - you may not take other actions and then go on Total Defence.

Each hit that you take during a round reduces your Evasion roll by 1. It cannot drop below 1, ever. These penalties last until you roll Evasion at the beginning of the next round.

How to do maps?

Although I haven't posted actively on this subject, I haven't been idle. In the last 6 months I have tried out some 5 or 6 different methods of creating and using maps for online RPing. These range from a friend's custom-made map utility, to posting hand-drawn bitmaps, to the 4 different RPing softwares I have tried out. And I think I have an answer.

MapTools 1.3.b45 (development version) is our saviour.

Pros:
-Can be downloaded here (http://rptools.net/doku.php) for free if you want to try it out (see the left sidebar and make sure you get the right version)
-Beautiful maps, beautiful interface - doesn't look thrown together
-Runs well even on my low-bandwidth connexion
-Allows chat as well as interactive map
-easy to use

Cons:
-None I've experienced so far

Most of the free rpg tools I've tried had one or two of the above points; this is the only one that has 'em all. I've used it only as a player but our DM has no complaints either.

For a group that prefers strict PbP and doesn't want to download software, it's an easy way to make a gridded, cool-looking map which can then be saved and uploaded as a picture (I believe, still fiddling with it).

I now feel okay having weapon ranges and movement rates and all that good stuff.

Zero-Cost Spells

I think the most important thing to note is that a Spirit score of 6 doesn't necessarily mean "6 or less spells". I'm starting to think a Spirit score of 6 should actually mean 60 Spirit points, with spells ranging from 1-15 points in cost depending on how strong they are. And that's a low p-value character; anyone can spend XP to raise their Spirit score.


Alternate System:
The way I see it, you should be able to cast "free" spells, just as long as they aren't any better than standard attack.

...If a spell produces a physical weapon and uses another skill to attack (ie. Throwing skill to hit with a summoned rock), then it should have a base 0 Spirit. (1 for the physical attack, -1 for requiring another skill)

The problem is that the rock example is better than a normal attack. Replace the word "rock" with "club": let's say a caster can hit the enemy with a magic club using his casting skill for x Spirit, or hit them using his Clubs skill for zero Spirit.

He's still better off than a non-caster using a club. If the non-caster's club is sundered or knocked out of his hand, he's out of clubs. Or if he has another one, he has to waste an action drawing it.

The caster can conjure a club with every casting, and presumably it doesn't need to be drawn. Plus, in our system the caster is allowed to take 3d6 in clubs if he wants, just like the warrior. Thus, he becomes a more potent fighter than the warrior, and pays no Spirit cost for it.

I think I would prefer finding a balanced number to start Spirit at, and making sure that every spell drains at least 1 spirit. If we start with 60 Spirit (or Spirit Stat x 10) the caster can choose whether they want to be the three-nuke wonder, or whether they want to be spamming moderate spells through a couple of fights, or whether they want to use weak close-range 1 spirit spells all day long. They can still go all day if that's their aim, but it comes with a cost (less nuke spells) and limits one of the (admittedly many) ways of abusing the system.



The basic idea being that, if you need two skills to make it work, then it should come out cheaper.

Agreed.



...we're going with the AP variant, then the caster can just spend more AP for the same issue. It lets them spend time "charging" attacks for a really big bang.

This idea is beginning to appeal more and more as well.

PLAYTESTING:

Wow! you disappear for a week and PCs start cropping up. Okay, I'll try to DM it.

Skjald, if I were you I'd go ahead and take a real weapon. If you want something street-smart you could try knives, unarmed, or the Improvised group. You don't have to declare the skills in advance, of course, but I think it's fair for you to have a knife on you at least. If you want to keep the wooden sword you can use it either with the appropriate swords group (and if it becomes relevant, it is whacking rather than slicing) or with the clubs group (in which case you qare gripping by the "blade" and clubbing them with the heavy pommel). I've been hit hard with a hardwood sword and, other than its greater likelihood of breing broken in combat, it's no weaker than being hit with any other nasty club.

CokeCan, I'm going to re-look over your character in a bit and try to suggest some things to power up that monk. I think a lot of it will be the "feat" equivalents and the mystic skills, but sadly neither of those have been statted yet. We might invent a lot of them for your character as we go.

Shneekey, you scare me. But, good thinking.

I'll create up a team of goblins for you to fight. These won't be your D&D goblins, guys. Watch out.

When they're ready I'll create an IC thread in the PbP section and invite you guys over. I'll ask you to paste your "sheets" from above into spoiler blocks in your posts.

By the way, I think I'll have 2+ hours from 5 pm till 7-7:30 pm CST this Friday (Oct. 17). If you guys want to do a "session" of either fast-and-furious posting or try out MapTools I could give you that time. Might be fun to see things move a little faster. Is that time good for anyone else?

Wow, playtesting. I think I'm tearing up!

ap

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-10-16, 02:06 PM
New Proposed Action & Evasion System.
Each character gets 3 actions per round. Normally these actions are either moving or attacking. (There wil probably be lots of other things that come up as well - drink a potion, etc.)

Each round you roll Evasion, or take mean on Evasion; this does not use up on of your three actions. If you don't roll it, the DM assumes you take mean.

If you do not like your Evasion score you can reroll it with a +1 bonus but this reroll uses one of your three actions. You can do it a second time for a +2 or use all three actions for a +3. You can take mean on all of these, if you want.

Each hit that you take during a round reduces your Evasion roll by 1. This resets when you reroll Evasion or or when the round ends, whichever comes first. It cannot drop below 1.

Players can save their actions to use throughout the round in multiple posts, but beware! When the DM posts "/round" all unused actions are lost!
I like this. This lets the GM control the flow of battle, and is flexable enough to accomidate different player's wildly diverging Real Life schedules. One possible cheeze... if you get hit a bunch, and are worried about your evasion getting too low, can you take that reroll on Evasion as one of the three actions to 'reset' it all the way back up to full? This eats up an action, but at the same time, can make someone nearly invincible. This can also give someone enormous tactical flexability. The party 'tank's best bet, then, is to do... nothing, other than evade, and let all the NPC's whif away at him while the rest of the party blows them down.




How to do maps?

Although I haven't posted actively on this subject, I haven't been idle. In the last 6 months I have tried out some 5 or 6 different methods of creating and using maps for online RPing. These range from a friend's custom-made map utility, to posting hand-drawn bitmaps, to the 4 different RPing softwares I have tried out. And I think I have an answer.

MapTools 1.3.b45 (development version) is our saviour.

Pros:
-Can be downloaded here (http://rptools.net/doku.php) for free if you want to try it out (see the left sidebar and make sure you et the right version)
-Beautiful maps, beautiful interface - doesn't look thrown together
-Runs well even on my low-bandwidth connexion
-Allows chat as well as interactive map
-easy to use

Cons:
-None I've experienced so far

Most of the free rpg tools I've tried had one or two of the above points; this is the only one that has 'em all. I've used it only as a player but our DM has no complaints either.

For a group that prefers strict PbP and doesn't want to download software, it's an easy way to make a gridded, cool-looking map which can then be saved and uploaded as a picture (I believe, still fiddling with it).

I know feel okay having weapon ranges and movement rates and all that good stuff.
I already have it downloaded


Zero-Cost Spells

I think the most important thing to note is that a Spirit score of 6 doesn't necessarily mean "6 or less spells". I'm starting to think a Spirit score of 6 should actually mean 60 Spirit points, with spells rangine from 1-15 points in cost depending on how strong they are. And that's a low p-value character; anyone can spend XP to raise their Spirit score.



The problem is that the rock example is better than a normal attack. Replace the word "rock" with "club": let's say a caster can hit the enemy with a magic club using his casting skill for x Spirit, or hit them using his Clubs skill for zero Spirit.

He's still better off than a non-caster using a club. If the non-caster's club is sundered or knocked out of his hand, he's out of clubs. Or if he has another one, he has to waste an action drawing it.

The caster can conjure a club with every casting, and presumably it doesn't need to be drawn. Plus, in our system the caster is allowed to take 3d6 in clubs if he wants. Thus, he becomes a more potent fighter than the warrior, and pays no Spirit cost for it.

I think I would prefer finding a balanced number to start Spirit at, and making sure that every spell drains at least 1 spirit. If we start with 60 Spirit (or Spirit Stat x 10) the caster can choose whether they want to be the three-nuke wonder, or whether they want to be spamming moderate spells through a couple of fights, or whether they want to use weak close-range 1 spirit spells all day long. They can still go all day if that's their aim, but it comes with a cost (less nuke spells) and limits one of the (admittedly many) ways of abusing the system. I like this as well. Will there be Mystic skills to increase the magic one can channel (increase spirit point multiplier) or reduce cost of magic (which specifically cannot reduce lower than one), because I could see those being requested by players of 'pure mages'.


PLAYTESTING:

Wow! you disappear for a week and PCs start cropping up. Okay, I'll try to DM it.

Skjald, if I were you I'd go ahead and take a real weapon. If you want something street-smart you could try knives, unarmed, or the Improvised group. You don't have to declare the skills in advance, of course, but I think it's fair for you to have a knife on you at least. If you want to keep the wooden sword you can use it either with the appropriate swords group (and if it becomes relevant, it is whacking rather than slicing) or with the clubs group (in which case you qare gripping by the "blade" and clubbing them with the heavy pommel). I've been hit hard with a hardwood sword and, other than its greater likelihood of breing broken in combat, it's no weaker than being hit with any other nasty club.

CokeCan, I'm going to re-look over your character in a bit and try to suggest some things to power up that monk. I think a lot of it will be the "feat" equivalents and the mystic skills, but sadly neither of those have been statted yet. We might invent a lot of them for your character as we go.

Shneekey, you scare me. But, good thinking.

I'll create up a team of goblins for you to fight. These won't be your D&D goblins, guys. Watch out.

When they're ready I'll create an IC thread in the PbP section and invite you guys over. I'll ask you to paste your "sheets" from above into spoiler blocks in your posts.

By the way, I think I'll have 2+ hours from 5 pm till 7-7:30 pm CST this Friday (Oct. 17). If you guys want to do a "session" of either fast-and-furious posting or try out MapTools I could give you that time. Might be fun to see things move a little faster. Is that time good for anyone else?

Wow, playtesting. I think I'm tearing up!

ap

I will not be available for that time frame, due to work and moving. Honestly, my best hours are middle day and early afternoon during the week, the rest of the time I could be either in transit or moving stuff.

Another_Poet
2008-10-16, 02:41 PM
Shneekey, excellent points about Evasion as it was written. I've now rewritten it to close that hole, and am reposting here for your benefit:

New Proposed Action & Evasion System.
Each character gets 3 actions per round. Normally these actions are either moving or attacking. (There will probably be lots of other things that come up as well - drink a potion, etc.)

Players can save their actions to use throughout the round in multiple posts, but beware! When the DM posts "/round" all unused actions are lost.


Each round you roll Evasion, or take mean on Evasion; this does not use up one of your three actions. If you don't roll it, the DM assumes you take mean.

If you do not like your Evasion score you can spend actions to goon Total Defence. Spend one of your three actions and you can reroll your Evasion with a +1 bonus. Spend two actions anreroll it with a +2. Spend all three of your actions and you an do nothing but guard yourselfm, rerolling Evasion with a +3 bonus. You can take mean on your reroll, if you want. The only catch is that you have to declare Total Defence as your first action(s) for the round - you may not take other actions and then go on Total Defence.

Each hit that you take during a round reduces your Evasion roll by 1. It cannot drop below 1, ever. These penalties last until you roll Evasion at the beginning of the next round.

Also: Actions and Spellcasting!

All spells are assumed to take 2 actions to cast (out of a total 3 actions per turn). Spells can be cast over 3 actions to reduce Spirit cost, or cast rapidly in just 1 action at a higher Spirit cost. (See chart that doesn't exist yet.)

About Mystic Skills and Spirit Cost
Yep, I'm sure we'll find all sorts of convoluted ways to reduce spirit cost. I'm not so sure about raising the spirit-stat : spirit-point multiplier, however. There will definitely be a mechanic for raising the Spirit stat (and thus gaining more Spirit Points) because that is a fixed power increase which can be easily quantified and tracked. Buying a higher multiplier is a sliding power increase (it's worth less with a score of 6 than with a score of 9) and could become hard to deal with.

ap

edited to add: I've added this stuff to the Combat section of the first post. I also added a section called Post Rate and Player Advantage, which I would love feedback on.

Skjaldbakka
2008-10-16, 09:03 PM
#1 Build points?
#2 exposition on how one builds a weapon? with examples? I was kind of hoping you would take "wooden sword" and use it to demonstrate the process of building a weapon's stats, step by step, as I don't understand the process.
#3
(allowing you to add your Strength modifier to damage) bawauh?

#4 Post rate and player advantage
Look pretty solid and well written. 90% of games that I have seen are daily post rate, or 6 days a week daily post rate.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-10-16, 10:13 PM
Shneekey, excellent points about Evasion as it was written. I've now rewritten it to close that hole, and am reposting here for your benefit:

New Proposed Action & Evasion System.
Each character gets 3 actions per round. Normally these actions are either moving or attacking. (There will probably be lots of other things that come up as well - drink a potion, etc.)

Players can save their actions to use throughout the round in multiple posts, but beware! When the DM posts "/round" all unused actions are lost.


Each round you roll Evasion, or take mean on Evasion; this does not use up one of your three actions. If you don't roll it, the DM assumes you take mean.

If you do not like your Evasion score you can spend actions to goon Total Defence. Spend one of your three actions and you can reroll your Evasion with a +1 bonus. Spend two actions anreroll it with a +2. Spend all three of your actions and you an do nothing but guard yourselfm, rerolling Evasion with a +3 bonus. You can take mean on your reroll, if you want. The only catch is that you have to declare Total Defence as your first action(s) for the round - you may not take other actions and then go on Total Defence.

Each hit that you take during a round reduces your Evasion roll by 1. It cannot drop below 1, ever. These penalties last until you roll Evasion at the beginning of the next round.

Also: Actions and Spellcasting!

All spells are assumed to take 2 actions to cast (out of a total 3 actions per turn). Spells can be cast over 3 actions to reduce Spirit cost, or cast rapidly in just 1 action at a higher Spirit cost. (See chart that doesn't exist yet.)
Good idea about making magic take up two actions, otherwise a mage can simply 'nova' three spells effectively 'simultaniously'. Quite frankly, I can see most 'min-max' casters blowing all three actions on one spell OR sacrificing power to get three spells in, unless they absolutely have to move.


About Mystic Skills and Spirit Cost
Yep, I'm sure we'll find all sorts of convoluted ways to reduce spirit cost. I'm not so sure about raising the spirit-stat : spirit-point multiplier, however. There will definitely be a mechanic for raising the Spirit stat (and thus gaining more Spirit Points) because that is a fixed power increase which can be easily quantified and tracked. Buying a higher multiplier is a sliding power increase (it's worth less with a score of 6 than with a score of 9) and could become hard to deal with. Actually, sliding scale benefit would promote additional xp spending on the stat in question, so it's more of an xp sink, meaning the mage in question has less versitility. However, I can see your point, boosting up your base spirit AND boosting your spirit point multiplier together can achieve MUCH greater results.


ap

edited to add: I've added this stuff to the Combat section of the first post. I also added a section called Post Rate and Player Advantage, which I would love feedback on.
Only one potential problem I see with this: Melee Nova.

The problem with a Wizard in 3.5 is he can 'nova' every spell he wants to, then hides in his Rope Trick/MMM. Same problem is introduced, with fewer resources to blow. A melee DPS build can slice and dice all three actions away in one post, putting an end to a BBEG before it ever starts.

Skjaldbakka
2008-10-16, 11:48 PM
All except that the BBEG will always go first in PbP. It isn't there until the GM makes a post, and there is nothing stopping the GM from making his three attacks immediately.

Coke_Can64
2008-10-17, 04:34 AM
Heh, I dissapear for a few days, and someone comments on how he dissapears and everthing happens :smalltongue:.

To be honest, I live in a rather tricky timezone here (Australia FTW indeed :smallannoyed:) and I'm not sure what that time would translate to.

As of now for me, its.... 8:30 PM? Gah, CST is Central Standard Time America I presume, so now It'd be... 3:30 AM over there now. :smallfrown: (Heh, no wonder I never get anywhere on these message boards :smallamused:)

Therefore, 7PM in America is... midnight. Wow. Um, yeah. NPC my char if you want. Don't worry about me.
:smallwink:

EDIT: Woah heck, and daylight savings kicked in earlier and... I'm so confused... :smalleek:

Another_Poet
2008-10-17, 08:43 AM
Only one potential problem I see with this: Melee Nova.

The problem with a Wizard in 3.5 is he can 'nova' every spell he wants to, then hides in his Rope Trick/MMM. Same problem is introduced, with fewer resources to blow. A melee DPS build can slice and dice all three actions away in one post, putting an end to a BBEG before it ever starts.

Hmmm... Well, I think as casters develop temselves into cannons and batmen, that advantage for the slicer-and-dicer is going to be an important thing. Also, between feats and mystic skills I think we can court a lot of melee types into spending their actions on non-smashing. I hope so.

Bear in mind also that most enemies will get three actions as well. Anything you can tank GM can tank better. :D

Another_Poet
2008-10-17, 08:49 AM
sorry for the double post...


#1 Build points?
#2 exposition on how one builds a weapon? with examples? I was kind of hoping you would take "wooden sword" and use it to demonstrate the process of building a weapon's stats, step by step, as I don't understand the process.
#3 bawauh?


Well, I don't think we will actually have build points yet, since we don't know what anything is worth, nor do we have any feats or cool skills for you tp spend your extra points on. Just chose your weapons and you're good (for now).

About the Strength thing, that was meant this way:
-You can pick up Strength as a core or side skill (or leave it as 1d6)
-Normally Str is used for things like lifting, prying, etc.
-Like all skills you can buy modifiers to Str in +1 increments
-When using a weapon with the 2H quality, you can add <your purchased modifier to the Str skill> to damage.

However, that was a very early thought and I don't know that it meshes with how the weapon system has developed. I think something like this might be better:

"A character using a weapon with the 2H quality can add an extra 1 point to damage rolls if they have Strength as a side skill, or an extra 2 points if they have Strength as a Core skill."

Edit:
Otherwise all weapons deal 1d6 damage until either
a) you find a more powerful weapon or
b) we decide that that's WAY too weak.


Scheduling:
Let's just play by post rather than chat, to solve scheduling problems. What's a fair post rate for the lot of you?

further edit: SPEED

I will assume that squares on a grid represent 1 yard (or metre, if you prefer). All characters have a speed of 6 squares (=18 feet) per action. There should be a build point to speed ratio so that people can trade a lower speed for extra bp (dwarf) or buy a higher speed. We don't have that mechanic yet.

The usual method of determining diagonal distance (every other diagonal square counts as two squares) seems fine to me.



ap

Another_Poet
2008-10-17, 12:34 PM
eek, triple-post! Please forgive, it's a lot of updating and I'm at work.

Goblins

Goblins are a dangerous species of hominids with a unique family structure. They like to live in dark places, especially abandoned mines. They occasionally live above ground, but only in deep forests and other dark locales.

Male goblins stand just under four feet tall. They are lean with dark grey hides, long canines and little body hair.

Female goblins grow much larger, typically over five feet tall with grey or brown hide and white markings on her posterior, thighs and face. Females grow more hair than males, sporting furry arms, legs and bellies.

The males are known to be fiercely loyal and subservient to their mothers, who lead family groups and direct feeding raids against humans.

Rumours vary as to how intelligent the hominids are.

The World

Incessant starfall keeps the humans underground. Living in cramped and often unstable caves throughout the Rift, humans stuggle to fend off subterranean monsters and make a living without regular access to the sunny fields above.

Travel is dangerous. Navigating the Rift requires excellent spelunking skills and a quick blade, and carries the risk of seismic quakes and cave-ins. Going topside involves long pleasant journeys through the abandoned countryside, with spontaneous hellish storms of falling meteor. The sky is streaked with a band of glittering fire, and it does not relent in its attacks on the earth below.

Those who venture out of the settled caverns, whether sprinting above or scrambling below, are the only link between colonies. They are not only messengers, couriers, warriors and guardians; they are hope. They are hailed as heroes of whatever colony birthed them, deserving or not. Children look up to them. Monsters stalk them without rest.

But heroes and colonists alike share one fear. There is shelter from monsters and meteors, but no place that can prevent the Thaning. One by one or handful by handful, people simply disappear. Some disappear forever - others turn up again. It could be the next day or decades later, and around the corner or on the other side of the world. Some have their memories, some don't. Thaning is sometimes taken as proof that not only the sky and earth are falling apart, but the very fabric of reality itself.

Your team will materialise from the Thaning with pre-Thane memories intact, your starting gear and not much else. How you navigate the caves around you and whether you find civilisation is up to you... and the creatures you find along the way.

Skjaldbakka
2008-10-17, 04:12 PM
Are we going to open a game thread, or post here?

hmm, my concept works well for any setting with a traditional medieval feel. But not for that one. At all. I'll have to tweak it a bit. Still playing street thief though.

Another_Poet
2008-10-17, 05:22 PM
I'll open a game thread, but probably not till Sunday or Monday.

I meant for the setting to be street-thief-friendly. The world is still medieval, just mostly underground. Plus, since you materialise out of the Thrane, you don't even need to explain how your street thief wound up out of the city.

ap

Skjaldbakka
2008-10-17, 05:31 PM
OK.

Are we really rolling 1d6 damage in a system where people have 6 hp?

Another_Poet
2008-10-17, 05:42 PM
Yeah, I think that'll be the first shot. But remember two things:

1) Armour. Sweet, sweet armour.

2) Negative Breath means wounded, not dead.

I'm going to get a lot of combat system details up over the weekend (I hope). I might also play with the weapon qualities a little. We should have a more usable system by the time our game starts.

Skjaldbakka
2008-10-17, 06:02 PM
Do we really want to have a system that enforces armor that strongly? It makes the game either "adventure of the guys in full plate" or "adventures of the guys who die swiftly and painfully"

Another way we could do it, which would require some rebalancing, is to take a page out of NERO's book, and have a means of reducing damage based on agility as well.

Since you buy armor with build, you could create an attribute called agility or some-such (it is called Dexterity armor in NERO) that could reduce damage as well.

If you did that, I would recommed creating some new weapon properties, one that reduces the effectiveness of 'dexterity armor' and one that reduces the effectiveness of 'physical armor'.

Another_Poet
2008-10-17, 06:39 PM
.
.
Attention Playtest Doods - Choose Your Starting Equipment !

Here is what I would like every character to be able to start with: everything from Group A, and 4 things from Group B.

GROUP A
1 suit of armour with an armour value of 2
1 heavy shield
1 melee weapon
1 ranged weapon plus ammo
1 set of clothing w/ warm cloak

GROUP B
-Armour with a value of 3 rather than 2 (replaced Group A armour)
-Shield has any quality other than “heavy”(replaces Group A shield)
-1 backup weapon
-3 individual spells
-3 feats
-6 pieces of cheap adventuring equipment (coil of rope, lantern, 1 days’ rations, etc.)
-One piece of expensive adventuring equipment (telescope, apothecary kit, etc.)

Special: You can downgrade your selection from Group A to get extra stuff from Group B. Downgrades include armour value of only 1; no shield at all; or one weapon instead of two. Each downgrade gets you 1 extra pick from Group B.

Also Special: Looking at the items in Group B, you can see a basic pricing relationship:
6 cheap items = 3 feats = 3 single spells

So, you could mix and match. For example, you could take 4 single spells, 1 feat, and 2 cheap items. That would count as 2 of your 4 picks from Group B.

It won’t always be this vague; these pricing relationships will eventually help determine the actual value of build points (like whether we should start with 50 or 600, and what costs what). Then more specific prices can be doled out.




Since you buy armor with build, you could create an attribute called agility or some-such (it is called Dexterity armor in NERO) that could reduce damage as well.

If you did that, I would recommed creating some new weapon properties, one that reduces the effectiveness of 'dexterity armor' and one that reduces the effectiveness of 'physical armor'.

I think that's worth considering, but I'm going to keep it on the back burner for now. I've actually done some pretty thorough playtesting of the to-hit, damage, evasn, and armour numbers from our beloved PbP system (I used a space setting and the poor players never even knew they were helping me build PbP... mwahahaha). You'd be surprised how hearty these numbers make you.

In the space version we used wound charts like "suit leak", "leg shot", etc. instead of just "you're down!", which was fun for a one-shot but not my hope for PbP. So I will adjust the enemies to not outnumber you as much or as often. You'll also regain some Breath between combats. But the basic idea is the same - just hitting you guys at all, let alone getting past your armour, will be tough.

Skjaldbakka
2008-10-17, 07:35 PM
You'll also regain some Breath between combats.

We want to come up with a mechanic for that at some point.

What's a feat?

Coke_Can64
2008-10-18, 05:11 AM
So, if you 2H a punch with strength as core, you can get... 24 at max? (1d6+3d6)

Wow. (I don't know why, but Final Fantasy 2 comes to mind, bashing mobs to pulp bare-handed.)

That'd pretty much splatter anything for a good half of the campaign y'know. :smalltongue:

Anyway yeah, the "world" seems cool. Would be interesting to play this.

I've got most of the things selected from the groups bar 1 from group B, I'm also curious, "feats"? I take this is something D&D-ish but it's kinda hard to follow without guidelines :smallwink:.

(If it does end up being a xerox of D&D's then I know which 3 I want :smallbiggrin:)

Another_Poet
2008-10-20, 11:52 AM
So, if you 2H a punch with strength as core, you can get... 24 at max? (1d6+3d6)

No, it would've come of your strength modifier (if you had purchased one), not your dice.

However I've changed the 2H weapon quality. Take a look to see its new and glorious benefit.

For added damage with unarmed you're best off doing two separate attacks, one with each hand.



Anyway yeah, the "world" seems cool. Would be interesting to play this.

Thanks!


I've got most of the things selected from the groups bar 1 from group B, I'm also curious, "feats"? I take this is something D&D-ish but it's kinda hard to follow without guidelines :smallwink:.

(If it does end up being a xerox of D&D's then I know which 3 I want :smallbiggrin:)

Okay, guys, Feats are what they sound like - speciakl things you can do that don't involve dice rolls. They haven't been posted yet but probably will be today, and they will not be exactly the same as the D&D ones, though some will be similar.

Also guys, I have changed the armour penalty rules. Check the Armour & Shields section of post #1 for details. (Your starting default is still Medium Armour, AV 2, pernalty -1; and you can still upgrade to Hvy Armr, AV 3, penalty -2, or downgrade to Light Armr, AV1, no penalty.)

Here are some updated rules about Spells:

-Armour penalty applies to all casting rolls
-You must buy at least 1 individual spell from a group before you can treat that group as a side or core skill (and, hence, cast from it at all).
-Even once you have a casting group as a side/core skill, you cannot modify any spell variables to be better than the individual spell you purchased. (So if you bought a Long range 1 target spell, you can modify it to Short or melee range but not increase it to Small or Large area.)
-You can only modify spells to include energies or status conditions that are in one of your purchased spells.
-Since we don't yet have build points or spell costs, spells purchased at char gen follow these guidelines:

*Long range OR 2d6 dmg OR small area OR 1 status effect added;
*otherwise melee range, 1d6 dmg, 1 target and no status effects;
*1 energy type from the chart (no phantasmagoric)
*versus evasion or will, your choice.

The spirit cost will be worked out in-game, I suppose.

ALSO: in the starting equipment chart I forgot to include improving your breath/spirit stats, or buying modifiers to a skill. I will amend this later today.

ap

Another_Poet
2008-10-20, 02:46 PM
Well, the system is officially too big for one post now. I've split it between posts 1 and 10. (Here's me kicking myself for not reserving post 2).

Feats are up (post 1). Choose away.

There is no gear list yet, name what you want and we'll see what we can do.

For modifiers, you can have a +1 to any three skills or a +1 to one skill and a +2 to one other skill. You can also spend these on raising Breath or Spirit if you want.

If you want, you can instead give up one of your +1's and get 1 extra feat OR 1 extra spell known OR 2 extra pieces of inexpensive gear.

ap

Skjaldbakka
2008-10-20, 03:38 PM
I'd recommend reserving the first three posts in the game thread, for ease of future quick reference.

hmm, I don't think I like the naming convention for your melee attacks. How about Power Strike, or Critical Attack, or Critical Strike, or Devastating Strike, or something like that? Mighty Stroke I,II, etc., seem off for some reason.

I also think we should post some feat suggestions, now that we have some examples to go buy.

How about some more defensive feats? Or some feats that let you combine actions (like an attack and a sleight of hand?)

Another_Poet
2008-10-20, 03:57 PM
I will gladly accept both new feat suggestions and suggestions for renaming previous feats.


ap

Skjaldbakka
2008-10-20, 04:52 PM
If you have the full flurry of death tree, is your attack routine in fact:

1: Flurry of Death
2: Frenzy
3: Frenzy

Edit -
This is what I am looking at right now:

Core Skills:
Evasion
Evasion
Stealth
---
---
---
---

Side Skills:
Evasion
Evasion
Evasion
Will
Weapon (Sideswords)
Weapon (Bows)
Acrobatics
Perception
Climbing
---
---
---


Group A:
AV 1 armor (leather coat)
Melee Weapon: Wooden Sword
Ranged Weapon: Short Bow and Arrows
Warm Set of Clothing

Group B:
Backup Weapon: Dagger
Adventuring Equipment: Lockpicks, Lantern, Hand Claws, Coil of Rope, 2 days rations
3 feats: Final Purpose, Stealth Strike, Weak Spot
3 feats: Lightfoot, Armor Wrecker, Frenzy I
?
?

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-10-20, 05:45 PM
Here are some updated rules about Spells:

-Armour penalty applies to all casting rolls
-You must buy at least 1 individual spell from a group before you can treat that group as a side or core skill (and, hence, cast from it at all).
-Even once you have a casting group as a side/core skill, you cannot modify any spell variables to be better than the individual spell you purchased. (So if you bought a Long range 1 target spell, you can modify it to Short or melee range but not increase it to Small or Large area.)
-You can only modify spells to include energies or status conditions that are in one of your purchased spells.
-Since we don't yet have build points or spell costs, spells purchased at char gen follow these guidelines:

*Long range OR 2d6 dmg OR small area OR 1 status effect added;
*otherwise melee range, 1d6 dmg, 1 target and no status effects;
*1 energy type from the chart (no phantasmagoric)
*versus evasion or will, your choice.

The spirit cost will be worked out in-game, I suppose.


So basically, I want to purchase a long range with large area and as many status effects as I can cram into one spell... then I can reduce it to the range/area/effect I wish 'on the fly', being able to produce virtually every meaningful spell combination in the game. Does that sound right?

Another_Poet
2008-10-20, 07:30 PM
So basically, I want to purchase a long range with large area and as many status effects as I can cram into one spell... then I can reduce it to the range/area/effect I wish 'on the fly', being able to produce virtually every meaningful spell combination in the game. Does that sound right?

Yes, with qualifiers.

1) You probably won't be able to afford all that at the outset. If you notice, I didn't even put "large area" as an option for our playtest, and that's because I expect that beginning characters wouldn't have enough BP to afford any large-area spells (once there are BP, that is).

2) I'm thinking that spell variables aren't "transitive" from one Casting skill to the next. So if you purchase a long range Darts spell and a short range Blasting spell, you won't know how to make a long range Blasting spell.

3) Oddly, I am thinking that either energy types, or status conditions should be transitive - don't know if I have any reasoning for that, just feels right. If you know how to do Chill Ray (dart) and Flaming Hell (blast), I think you can manage Ice Storm (blast).

Also, I'll soon be posting a bunch of magic item categories that probably won't be relevant for months. What a treat, huh? Happy birthday!

@ Skja: the routine looks right, except you could put the Flurry of Death anywhere in the round (doesn't have to be the first one). But yeah, only 1 Flurry per round as it's written. Char sheet looks good so far.

Skjaldbakka
2008-10-20, 07:43 PM
Yeah, that is an issue. We'll need to put some work into that. Aren't playtests great?

Coke_Can64
2008-10-21, 05:37 AM
Whaddaya mean? We haven't started playing yet! :smalltongue:

Here's my updated charater sheet (And spoilered this time too). Is there anything amiss?


----------------

Name: Craeldon


Step 1: ID
Craeldon is an apprentice monk who has been sent out of the temple of (insert diety here) to learn about the world. He has begun his mission to hone his already decent skill in the martial arts and the technique of the blazing fist. (Poorly veiled excuse for a individual spell)

Step 2: The Tetrad
Breath 6 + 2 (Using + modifiers)
Spirit 6 + 1 (Here too)
Evasion 2d6
Will 3d6

Step 3+4: Possessions & Armour

Fists (0H) [1d6/1d6 & +1 Eva/2x 1d6]
Quarterstaff (2H) [1d6]

Clothes

Leather Armour [Light, AV 1]

During the game.

Step 5: Spells Etc.
Blazing Fist (Melee, *2d6*, 1 target, No Status, Heat, Evasion to dodge)
[Insert Falcon Punch joke here]

[^Unsure SP cost, to be worked in-game]

Step 6: Build point's lacking?
[Undefined limit]

Step 7: Spare Build Points
[As above]

Step 8: Skilling

Core:

Will
Weapon: Boxing
Martial: Wresting
Atheletics
---
---
---

Side:

Evasion
Evasion
Evasion
Weapon: Thrown
Weapon: Improvised (---) (---) (---)
Climbing
Knowledge (Religion) (---)
Casting (Touches)*
---
---
---

FEATS
Armour Wrecker
Measured Stroke I
Mighty Stroke I
Final Purpose

[All ---'s are TBA as per the game rules]

----------------


Group A

1 Suit of Armour: (See Below)
1 Heavy Shield: Heavy Shield (Not that I'm gonna ever going to use it though, giant frisbee p'haps?)
1 Melee Weapon: Quarterstaff
1 Ranged + Ammo: (I take thrown weapons like throwing knives count) 10(?) throwing knives
Clothing and Cloak

Group B (5)

1 individual spell
4 Feats (Armour Wrecker) (Measured Stroke I) (Mighty Stroke I) (Final Purpose)
3 day's rations + 2 torches + 1 Coil of rope + 1 Backpack (2 1/3 points total)
1 "Light" Leather Armour (As described in armour post)




* = I *think* that "Casting (Touches)" is the right skill yes? It's just for the spell to hit once in a while.

Also, can I use Mighty Stroke I and Measured Stroke I on the same attack roll?

Another_Poet
2008-10-21, 08:52 AM
Coke_Can64:

I was confused why you hadn't gotten rid of the Str modifier thing, and then I realised my changes to the weapon qualities hadn't saved. :smallredface: Anyway, they'e up no on Post 10. 2H weapons no longer add extra damage, instead they give you a +1 to Evasion (which should help with your shield problem when you're using fists 2H).

Your spell looks fine, and yes, Touches is what you want.

I think those two feats are OK to use together - even if it seems a little illogical, let's allow it for now and see how it goes.

Skjaldbakka, this is actually my first playtest (of a system; I've done modules, etc.) so hold my hand!

:)

ap

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-10-21, 06:50 PM
Yes, with qualifiers.

1) You probably won't be able to afford all that at the outset. If you notice, I didn't even put "large area" as an option for our playtest, and that's because I expect that beginning characters wouldn't have enough BP to afford any large-area spells (once there are BP, that is).

2) I'm thinking that spell variables aren't "transitive" from one Casting skill to the next. So if you purchase a long range Darts spell and a short range Blasting spell, you won't know how to make a long range Blasting spell.

3) Oddly, I am thinking that either energy types, or status conditions should be transitive - don't know if I have any reasoning for that, just feels right. If you know how to do Chill Ray (dart) and Flaming Hell (blast), I think you can manage Ice Storm (blast).


I got an idea about how to handle that:

You can purchase 'modifiers' seperate from spells IF you have Mystic skills they can apply to. For example, if you take Blast as a side or core skill, you can take the range Short, then Medium, then Long, paying more BP for each suceeding range increment (and requiring the previous incriment to be able to purchase the next). Same thing for Area. You can purchase Small area, then purchase Medium area, then purchase Large area. Then purchase any 'flavor' seperately as another modifier.

So, it might look something like this:

Range: Short (x BP cost); Medium (x*2 BP cost); Long (x*4 BP cost)
Burst Radius: Small (y BP Cost); Medium (y*3 BP cost); Large (y*6 BP cost)
Flavor of choice (z BP each flavor 'known')
Effect of choice (might have sliding scale depending on which effect you want, paralysis is probably going to cost more than root, for example. Must purchase another Effect 'damage plus one effect' if you want to do damage in addition to the effect, and you probably want to specify only one effect per spell)

For this playtest, you could probably list Flavors as worth a Melee Weapon, and Range: Medium as an Armor: 2 (with Long being the Armor: 3 upgrade), and you could probably list Small Area Effect as a choice (or maybe even two choices).

This makes for a more versitile mage, who spends a lot of BP on spell stuff rather than equipment. He will likely have no armor, but be reasonabally versitile to be able to blast a number of different ways, and maybe even be able to use one or two status effects.

So to stat out the D&D Fireball spell, you would likely have to have the following purchases: Long Range, Medium Area, Fire flavor as well as have Burst as at least a Side, if not a Core skill.

To calculate spirit cost, each of these will carry multipliers on the spirit cost. So the above would have the Long range modifier, TIMES the Medium Area multiplier, which can stack up real quick, and should discourage 'ICBM' spells quite handily. In fact, I think my BP cost multipliers would do well for the Spirit Cost multipliers. So that would be (base cost of fire Burst)*4*3 for a total cost of 12 TIMES what the spirit cost of a short range small burst spell.

Coke_Can64
2008-10-22, 12:32 AM
I've edited it to remove the + str mod in my char sheet, to be honest, I forgot I had that up there on it anyway. :smallsigh:
Does the +1 eva for 2H stack with the +1 eva for Weapon (Longsword)? (Just wondering for anybody who uses longswords)

Another_Poet
2008-10-22, 09:50 AM
Hmm, ah, I'd forgotten about that. I think that is redudancy on my part - I'll fix it (so any 2H weapon gives you +1 Eva, and longsword is a 2H weapon, so +1 total).

Another_Poet
2008-10-22, 12:59 PM
@ Shneekey: I think something like what you suggested could work. For now just choose spells based on the creiterion I gave above and don't worry about spending mystic feats on it. I'd like to get a sense of spirit cost from playtest before making up any more numbers :)

Breath, Death, and Healing

Your character's Breath score may be depleted by any number of threats - enemies, traps, mishaps, or the natural dangers of rugged terrain. Many forms of damage are reduced by your armour value, but even with that safeguard there will be times you find yourself low on Breath. This section details the means of recovering Breath and, perhaps most importantly, what happens when you are completely out of Breath.


WHAT BREATH IS
Breath is a character's energy store, their vigour and stamina. As long as a character has Breath, they are shrugging off the weapon blows and other threats that connect with them. A character who is hit with a spear for 4 points of Breath damage has not been gored or stabbed with the spear, but they'll probably have a welt underneath the part of their armour that absorbed the blow.

As a day drags on, the exertion of combat and exploration gets to a character. The lower their Breath, the less energy they have left to keep surviving such challenges. Only when they run out of Breath do they take serious wounds.


RECOVERING BREATH
There are three ways of recovering breath: rest, magic, or mystic feats.

Rest
Rest is something all characters need. When a character can sit down somewhere and relax, she regains Breath at a rate of 2 points per hour. (It is possible to raise this rate through Mystic feats.) In order for this to work the character must be able to rest somewhere reasonably safe, and not be required to move around much or do anything strenuous or stressful. Characters do not necessarily need to eat or nap to rest, but anyone suffering from severe hunger, thirst or sleep deprivation will be unable to regain Breath points this way.

Characters engaged in light chores, guard duty, a gentle walk, or similar physical activities can still regain Breath, but at a lower rate of 1 point per hour.

Rest, like all forms of Breath recovery, is unable to raise a character's Breath score above its maximum (unless they have some feat allowing otherwise).

There is a limit to the power of rest! No character can regain more than twice their Breath score from rest without getting a full night's sleep. For example, a thief with a Breath score of 6 can recover up to 12 Breath points by resting. After that, no amount of rest will recover any more Breath until the thief manages to get a good, full sleep.

Magic
There are many spells and ceremonies that invigourate and energise the body, and these are often employed to refresh warriors between sorties. The Refresh spells are the most basic form of medicinal magic, recover various amounts of Breath much quicker than rest does (measured in points per round, rather than points per hour), but these spells have drawbacks. First of all, Breath regained by Refresh spells is reduced by the target's armour value just like damage often is. When time allows, it is therefore best best to remove an ally's armour before applying a Refresh spell to them. Secondly, Refresh spells that raise Breath faster than 1 point per round are costly to learn and to cast. Because of these limitations, magic healing is usually reserved for after a battle is over, and is not done in the midst of a melee. [See the magic section on page 1 for the new casting skill groups Refresh, Renew, Remake and Resurrect.]

Magic, like all forms of Breath recovery, is unable to raise a character's Breath score above its maximum (unless they have some feat allowing otherwise).

Mystic Feats
There are several Mystic feats that are designed to allow a character to imediately recover a small portion of Breath. This does not involve casting a spell and is not affected by armour; it represents a character's ability to draw on their inner strength to keep themselves moving. This could involve meditative training, an adrenaline rush, or a natural determination; in any case, it is often the deciding factor between life and death in combat.

However, these feats deplete vastly more Spirit points than casting a simple Refresh spell. They are truly emergency techniques that are best saved for dire circumstances.

In general these feats do not allow a character to exceed their maximum Breath score, but there are feats that give exceptions to this.


ZERO BREATH: EXHAUSTION
When a character's Breath score reaches zero, that character is exhausted. An exhausted character halves all dice rolls, and cannot use abilities that allow extra attacks, spells, or movement per action.

Nonetheless, the character is still up and awake, and is much better off than a wounded character. Character can spend build points or XP to widen their "exhaustion window" in 1 point increments. For example, a normal character is exhausted at 0 Breath and wounded at -1 Breath, but if they widened their window by 3 points would be merely exhausted from 0 to -3 Breath and would only become injured at -4 Breath.

The exhaustion window can never be widened by more than half a character's maximum Breath score. Thus, a character with a Breath score of 6 can widen exhaustion down to -3, while a character with a Breath score of 8 can widen it down to -4.

Once a character becomes exhausted, they remain exhausted until they meet two conditions:

1) Their Breath score rises out of their exhaustion window, and
2) They receive magical healing or rest for one hour or more.

Neither one of these conditions on its own will ease their exhaustion; both conditions must be met.


INJURY AND NEGATIVE BREATH
When a character's Breath score drops below their exhaustion window they become injured. This almost always means they drop unconscious, but may have other ramifications as well - possibly even death. By default injury starts at -1 Breath, but if the exhaustion window is widened it starts lower.

When a character is injured, look at their current Breath score and compare to the table below to find the result.

Points Below Exhaustion...........Injury........Breath Recovered
1-3 (default -1 to -3)................Type 1.......1d6
4-5 (default -4 to -5)................Type 2.......1d6
6-x (default -6 to x).................Type 3.......1d6
below x...................................Lethal........ ..1d6

"Points below exhaustion" refers to exactly that: how many points your Breath has fallen below your exhaustion window. The default value is given in parentheses - this is the value if you have not widened your exahustion window.

The variable "x" is your maximum Breath score with a minus sign in front of it. So if you have a max breath of 7, x is -7.

"Breath recovered" refers to how much Breath you regain when you take the injury. Breath is always regained upon being injured. This is to reduce compound injuries and make the game less lethal. This Breath recovery is not enough, on its own, for your character to get back up and into the fight; it simply provides a small buffer against further injury, should your enemies choose to continue harrying you when you fall.

The "Injury" type refers to what sorts of medical complications you incur from your injury. These complications may present hurdles to patching you up, or may even give you penalties that stay with you after you're healed. The injury types can each involve various complications:

Type 1: Minor. On a d6:
1.......Unconscious plus concussion
2-5....Unconscious (only)
6.......Exhausted rather than Injured

Type 2: Urgent. On 2d6:
2.......Unconscious plus sprain
3-8....Unconscious plus severe bleeding
9-10...Unconscious plus cracked ribs
11......Unconscious plus internal bleeding
12......Unconscious plus concussion


Type 3: Dire. On a d6:
1-2.....Unconscious plus gangrene risk
3........Eye injury
4-5.....Head trauma
6........Tailbone injury

Complications explained alphabetically:

Concussions halve all rolls made for 1 hour after being woken up. Additionally, the character suffers short-term memory loss (forgetting some, but not all things that happened in the last 24 hours).

Cracked ribs are extremely painful, but not impossible to live with. For 1 week, half movement and halve all Athletics and Acrobatics checks.

Eye Injuries leave a character mostly blinded for 2 days. On the first day they can sense nothing but the presence or absence of light, cannot move around without guidance, and cannot succeed on any physical skill roll; on the second day they can make out shapes well enough to move at half-speed and all physical rolls are halved.

Head trauma is more severe than a concussion and leaves a character addled for 3 days. On the first day they remain in a vegetative state, unconscious and unable to sense their surroundings or take any action. By the second day they wake up but experience extreme head pain if they try to move, limiting them to one yard per action. On the third day they can move normally, but on both the second and third days they halve all mental rolls (casting, knowledge, etc.).

Internal bleeding is a dangerous condition, but one which can be cured with bed rest. For three days, the character loses 1 Breath per hour when trying to walk or perform light chores, and 2 Breath per hour when performing any strenuous activity.

Gangrene risk represents an infected wound, but one which has not yet caused any tissue death. The character has 1 week in which to remove the infection, or else the wound will become gangrenous (see below).

Gangrenous describes infected wounds that have gone on to kill healthy tissue around them. Essentially, the area around the wound is dead and decomposing. The dead tissue must be cut away. If done the first day, this can be accomplished without removing the limb by a Field Medicine check equal to or higher than the attack roll that inflicted the wound. If this check fails or is not made in time, the entire limb must be amputated (treat as lost limb, below). There can be no rety on this check.

Lost limbs are a major disability for adventurers. In the cast of a leg, walking is impossible without a crutch or prosthetic of some sort, and even then the characters moves at half their normal movement. Additionally, they cannot make any Athletics or Acrobatics checks that involve moving the lower body. For arms, Athletics and Acrobatics checks involving the upper body are halved, and only one hand remains to use weapons, shields, or other items.

Severe bleeding must be stitched up or otherwise staunched, raising the Field Medicine target number by 2.

Sprains disable the relevant limb for 1 day. If to either leg: half movement, halve all Athletics and Acrobatics checks. If to either arm: halve all rolls made involving that arm, or halve shield bonus from shield used by that arm.

Tailbone injuries leave a character paralysed from the waist down for 1 hour (their spine is not broken, but they cannot move their body through the pain). Additionally, they cannot move more than 1 yard per action for the rest of the day, and have half movement the whole next day.

Unconsciousness is the same as being "knocked out", The character is in a deep sleep, and will wake up within an hour (or can be woken up early with smelling salts, a Field Medicine roll, or a bucket of cold water) unless another complication specifies otherwise.

Lethal:Lethal injuries are likely to kill a character. Lethal injuries can be described in almost any way: a gash through the neck and throat, a knife to the heart, evisceration, a cloven skull, etc. No matter the form of the injury the mechanics for treating it are the same.

Once your character takes a lethal injury, roll your Breath recover and see if it brings your Breath score above x If it does not, you have only one round to live; if not treated by then you die.

If it does raise your Breath score above [I]x[I], you lose 1 point of Breath per round until you reach x. When you fall below x you die. You do not incur additional wounds for losing these points, although you can incur additional wounds if you are attacked again.

Treating a character who is dying of a lethal wound involves a successful Field Medicine roll. The target number for this roll is equal to the attack roll that inflicted the wound, plus 1 for every round that has elapsed since the wound was inflicted.

Once the wound is treated, the character remains unconscious for at least one full day and night. Their injury will heal on its own, but slowly; it takes one week plus 2 days per round that elapsed between receiving the injury and being treated. During this time the character cannot recover Breath through rest and her maximum Beath is reduced to half its usual maximum.

Each day, the character must receive a successful Field Medicine roll. The target for this roll is the same as the target for the original Field Medicine roll to treat the wound. If this roll fails, one more day is added to the total recovery time the character needs.

Each time the character gets up and walks around or physicall exerts herself before the injury is healed, one more day is added to the total recovery time.

This entire process can be bypassed with an appropriate Remake spell, which will close the wound and leave the character healthy right away.


DEATH AND RESURRECTION
When a character dies, they are done. They are not normally going to come back by any means.

Many wizards have researched ways around mortality, but results have been spotty at best. The spells associated with the Resurrection casting skill represent their best efforts, but these spells are expensive and often futile.

When a Resurrection spell is used, the character will return to life only if they have some powerful drive to accomplish something in the world. Not all characters have such a drive, even if they enjoyed life or had goals in life. An ardorous dedication to some person, placeor cause is the most basic prerequisite to resurrection.

Additionally, divine favour must be sought. If the deities are not petitioned and a case is not made for the person's merit, the soul wil not be returned.

If these preconditions are met the resurrection spell has a chance of succeeding. However, there is also a chance of the spell going awry. In this event the person is reanimated but not restored fully to life. They become one of the various forms of undead, often with a tormented mind and fearsome powers. Many of the world's greatest evils were created through mankind's well-intentioned, but ultimately selfish desire to best death.

Once a person is turned into an undead there is no way to restore them to proper life, although it is still possible to break the curse on them and allow their spirit to go to rest.


ENEMIES AND FALLEN ALLIES
It is generally considered cruel and even downright evil to strike a wounded, fallen soldier. More to the point, it's bad tactics: those sword strokes are better spent on enemies who are still up and fighting. Even the twisted monsters of the world can understsnd this.

Therefore, when an ally goes down in battle you can usually expect that they will receive no further wounds until the battle is over. There are exceptions, of course. Some attacks against valid targets will hit a fallen target as well (such as a Blast spell or a charging sickle-chariot, both of which damage a large area of a battlefield). In such cases, little consideration is given to the wounded who get in the way.

There are a few types of enemies who will continue to attack fallen, inured targets. Usually such enemies are mentally deranged or completely mindless. Examples would include mindless undead, rabid animals, and certain fiendish spirits. Even these monsters, however, may save their meal or macabre sport till after decisively ending a battle.

If an entire party of PCs is wiped out by enemies, they are likely to be left for dead. A few enemies (such as assassins) may systematically finish off the injured PC's one at a time before leaving. Others (such as formal armies) may well nurse the PCs back to health to take them prisoner. Prisoner treatment varies from army to army, but prisoners almost always receive second treatment after the army's own casualties are tended.

If the PCs are simply left for dead, their injuries play out as normal. Those who are merely unconscious will wake up within an hour and can set about tending their friends - if they were left any supplies with which to tend them.


I will be editing this into the original post, along with adding the four new Casting skills, in just a moment.

Also, I expect there to be some pushback against having these injury charts and various types of injuries. I have my own doubts, since I think that stuff is fun in a one-shot but bogs down long campaigns. However, I've tries to arrange the charts to make it very likely to get Type I and very unlikely to get harsher wounds except in the most difficult battles. That's why you roll to recover Breath when you'e injured.

I'd like to try it out and see whether it adds flavour to the game. If it ruins the experience we can delete the charts and go with a more D&D type of thing (Up and fine or down and unconscious, no specific wounds).

Note that all of the injuries can be removed with Remake spells.

Another_Poet
2008-10-22, 02:59 PM
Proto Build Point Chart:

Point value chart:
BP........Stat
12 pts: +1 armour
12 pts: add shield quality
12 pts: 1 extra weapon
12 pts: 1 expensive item
04 pts: 1 basic spell
04 pts: 1 feat
04 pts: a single +1 modifier to a skill (not evasion)
02 pts: 1 cheap item

Minimum point allocations:
One Weapon: 12 bp
AV1 Armour: 12 bp
Modifiers: two +1's or one +2: 8 bp
=minimum allocation 32 bp (leaves you with 88 bp to play with)

Recommended allocations:
Weapons: 2 (24 bp)
Armour: AV2 (24 bp)
Modifiers: three +1's (12 bp)
Shield: Heavy (12 bp)
=72 bp allocation (leaves you with 48 bp to play with)

These numbers are flawed, not least because rangfed weapons are worth way more than melee weapons, but they'll work for now. They reflect the character building guidelines I gave a few posts back, which all your character sheets are based on. I'm using them to determine how much XP you each have to start with.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-10-22, 04:12 PM
So a point-blank area effect (centered on caster) would be a Touch range Burst? An example would be the WoW Arcane Blast. This will not affect the caster, but may affect allies around him.

I will be replacing my armor for 3 spells, trading in my Shield for another 3 spells, and trading in a ranged weapon for... another 3 spells (unless there will by mystic feats I could get to improve casting ability or decrease cost of casting in some way).

This gives me 9 spells, which will let me have a LOT of flexability. And that's before the 4 choices I get after that, which I haven't decided on.

So, for my 9 spells, I can either have a long range dart or burst with no additional area of effect (basically trading Evasion for Will save), OR I could have a touch spell that either inflicts a status effect, OR I could have a Point-Blank Area Effect spell that affects a small area, but starts from me (either something like Burning Hands/Color Spray, OR something with a radius like AMF, only be an instintanious nuke that does damage to everyone within a certain range, including allies). Does that sound right?

Also, is there something I can purchase to be able to avoid 'friendly fire'? I don't mind blowing a Core or Side skill or even using it as an Item Choice, but since I plan to have at least one spell be area effect, I'd like to try and avoid hurting my allies in the process.

Another_Poet
2008-10-22, 04:22 PM
IC thread is up: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5154219&posted=1#post5154219 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5154219&posted=1#post5154219)

OOC thread is up: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94584

Please subscribe to them players (obviously). You can start roleplaying your meetup, at least.

Shneekey:
I'll update the char sheet I made for you in the IC thread, then.

Under the current rules, if you targeted a Blast on the caster, the caster would take damage. Blasts are not currently "intelligent", however, I think there should be a series of mystic feats to fix that.

I'd leave them out for our starting campaign, though; seems like the kind of thing that'd be cool to pick up as you get stronger.

I will offer you these two, though, which might help:

Blast Art I (yeah I really need naming help)
You can use Blast spells to cover a cone-shaped area starting on a square adjacent to your own square. The radius is twice the radius of your normal blast spell and the cone is 45-degrees.

Blast Art II
You can use Blast spells to cover a single line of squares starting on a square adjacent to your own. The line must be orthagonal or 45-degrees. The line is four times as long as your normal blast radius. Prereq: Blast Art I

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-10-22, 04:45 PM
Can Snipe be used in conjunction with the Dart mystic skill? It is a ranged attack. It may be a bit overpowered. Same thing with the one that lets you trade attack for damage, since I'm ignoring armor with magic.

Another_Poet
2008-10-22, 07:18 PM
Hmmm... good question. And I think the answer should be "No, because it's for ranged weapons only, but a similar ability for casting skills should be available."

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-10-22, 08:27 PM
Possible exploit:

Spent Life I lets me blow a Breath point to regain 40 spirit points. Breath is real hard to come by, you only got 6, yanno? So far so good.

Then, I go down to grabbing Refresh. Although it hasn't specified how much Spirit points it costs to restore 1 Breath per round, I'm fairly certain it isn't going to be as high as 40.

So, as a caster, I get both Spent Life I and Refresh. I start blasting as per normal. I use Spent Life I to give me more points to blast with. Then I use Refresh to retore that breath. Particularly after-combat, this lets me bring both Spirit and Breath up to full in very short order. However, if I don't wear armor (because it applies a penalty to ALL my casting), then I can cast it during combat, since that 1 breath will still tick on me, since I'm not wearing armor to begin with. In fact, if multi-round Breath restoration costs at or under 40, I see this as a way to get regeneration, by blowing Spent Life to get the points to cast Refresh for x rounds, so that if I get hurt, I automatically start healing up.

Have I found an exploit, or am I missing something?

Another_Poet
2008-10-22, 09:38 PM
Have I found an exploit, or am I missing something?

8/

You have found an exploit!

Let's just give it an arbitrary "you can't do that" for now until a more reasonable fix presents itself.

ap

Coke_Can64
2008-10-23, 12:48 AM
Uh, the URL for the playtest has an extra HTTP:// in front of it. :smallconfused::smallbiggrin:

Another_Poet
2008-10-23, 09:12 AM
Fixed. and words in white to make the post long enough.

Another_Poet
2008-10-23, 03:24 PM
Magic item info up:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5154050#post5154050


(now with just one http:/ !)

Skjaldbakka
2008-10-24, 10:11 PM
We should probably continue to update this thread throughout the playtest.

Coke_Can64
2008-10-24, 10:46 PM
Um... okay, what else is there to do on this that isn't covered by the testing... :deepthought:

Skjaldbakka
2008-10-25, 12:46 AM
The idea is that we don't want the thread to die during the playtest. If we do, we won't be able to post the results of the playtest.

Coke_Can64
2008-10-25, 04:21 AM
Heh, true.

Although missing a day or two of posting isn't going to kill this...

Coke_Can64
2008-10-29, 11:44 PM
Sorry for double-post but I guess we need to keep this from falling apart.

So with this health system, characters acutally have 6+3d6 health? (Although 7 before all rolls are halved and 7+1d6 before they get badly owned yes?)

Another_Poet
2008-10-30, 09:48 AM
I think we understand each other, but I'm not sure. Here it is, simplified:

Breath.............Result
1 to 6..............No problem
0....................Exhausted (all rolls halved)
-1 to -3...........Unconscious, minor wound, recover 1d6 breath
-4 to -5...........Unconscious, urgent wound, recover 1d6 breath
-6...................Unconscious, dire wound, recover 1d6 breath
lower than -6....Unconscious, lethal injury, death risk

There are two ways to make this whole thing better for yourself. First of all, you can widen your Exhaustion window, which (aside from being good on its own) has the added benefit of pushing all the other results farther below zero.

Second, you can raise your max breath score, which has he added benefit of lowering your lethal injury point.

Skjaldbakka
2008-10-30, 02:12 PM
Another point which I feel should be made in terms of PbP games.

Paranoid players bring the game to a crashing halt. For example, how many days did it take for us to open a door in Shahalar's game?

I really think that traps and ambushes are a problem for PbP, because players putting a lot of time into trying to avoid them, and that is actually a bad thing in PbP.

Another_Poet
2008-10-30, 02:14 PM
You know, I hadn't even thought of that. That's a brilliant observation.

Does anybody have any ideas on how to fix it, other than just "trap free" and "betrayal free" environments?

Skjaldbakka
2008-10-30, 02:36 PM
I can't think of anything that is not heavy handed.

Although if heavy handed becomes acceptable, you could have it be a straight roll of the appropriate skill.

"You trust this person"

Although for traps, you could just roll the appropriate skills to detect traps automatically, or have it be a skill that is always mean. If the players know that they are automatically considered to be searching for traps, they won't spend so much time declaring that they are searching for traps.

For every. Single. *bleep*. Door.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-10-30, 10:25 PM
You know, I hadn't even thought of that. That's a brilliant observation.

Does anybody have any ideas on how to fix it, other than just "trap free" and "betrayal free" environments?

New skill: Alertness (MUST be taken as a CORE SKILL ONLY). Anyone with Alertness is automatically assumed to be actively searching for traps, ambushes, or whatever else any core or side skill that character currently has that might passively result in the discovery of something. If someone spontaniously discovers a skill in reaction to a situation happening, and that skill would have allowed him to detect the situation, then he does NOT get a chance to detect it now that it has already happened, however it might work for future occasions.

How Detection Works:

Either take Alertness, or whenever the character is 'actively searching', some skills allow a chance to notice an obstacle that others might miss. This would include Detect Traps, Detect Ambush, and possibly others (may re-write skills as necessary for detection skills). Basic mechanism is roll your skill (core or side) vs the DC the GM determines. You *MUST* have a skill as either Core or Side to be able to detect.

Skjaldbakka
2008-10-30, 11:32 PM
1) I'd make that a new feat

2) We are at that point requiring a specific skill set on the part of the players in order for them to not slow down the game by being paranoid about traps.

3) I think this is an intrinsic problem with PbP, that may have to be resolved at the 'gentleman's agreement' level.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-10-31, 08:39 AM
1) I'd make that a new feat

2) We are at that point requiring a specific skill set on the part of the players in order for them to not slow down the game by being paranoid about traps.

3) I think this is an intrinsic problem with PbP, that may have to be resolved at the 'gentleman's agreement' level.

Make Alertness a regular skill, assume they are to be always 'actively looking', and make it a general all-round 'detect' skill?

Skjaldbakka
2008-10-31, 02:13 PM
That would work. Have awareness be an 'always taking mean' skill.

I really don't like the 'must be a core skill' as a mechanic. The way evasion works kinda bugs me too, but I'm not sure how else to do that with this system.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-10-31, 08:52 PM
That would work. Have awareness be an 'always taking mean' skill.

I really don't like the 'must be a core skill' as a mechanic. The way evasion works kinda bugs me too, but I'm not sure how else to do that with this system.

If they're actively looking, they get a roll, otherwise they take mean?

Of course, that just brings us back to square one. With taking mean, there is no chance to succeed: Either you do or you don't. I say the GM should roll it for you, no chance of taking mean.

Skjaldbakka
2008-11-01, 11:41 AM
Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of this:

Really, Really, Heinous Trap: 5d6
Heinous Trap :4d6
Nasty Trap: 3d6
Trap: 2d6
Simple Trap: 1d6

The GM rolls the trap's difficulty when the party encounters a trap, and if the trap rolls higher than the individual PC's 'awareness score' (taking mean on awareness), then they are effected by the trap.

Since the GM controls when traps appear, the roll should be in the GM's hands, and this way only one roll is needed.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-11-01, 02:31 PM
Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of this:

Really, Really, Heinous Trap: 5d6
Heinous Trap :4d6
Nasty Trap: 3d6
Trap: 2d6
Simple Trap: 1d6

The GM rolls the trap's difficulty when the party encounters a trap, and if the trap rolls higher than the individual PC's 'awareness score' (taking mean on awareness), then they are effected by the trap.

Since the GM controls when traps appear, the roll should be in the GM's hands, and this way only one roll is needed.

I'm not sure I like that. A guy who takes Alertness as a core skill gets a 3d6, for a Mean of what, 11? That means he never has to worry about simple and regular traps (so why bother even putting any in your dungeon?), has an average chance to find a Nasty Trap (by definition), and Heinous Traps will generally affect them (making it feel like a Railroad because there was no way out of it).

So basically, if you've got a guy with Alertness as a Core skill, there's no point in putting in Traps or Simple Traps, and they will complain about Heinous traps. It's got all the makings of a wonderful Drama Bomb.

I'm not sure how to do anything better with our system, but playing devil's advocate here a moment.

We're trying to make a system that will be simple to play (and I like your system in that it keeps to the KISS method) and speed (GM rolls all encounter vs Alertness checks when necessary and tells the players the results as they happen) to keep the pace going. However, Traps and other Surprise situations are always potential bones of contention and sources for Drama, and I'd really like to minimize the drama element if possible.

Another_Poet
2008-11-01, 03:49 PM
First off, I agree with what Skjald said about Evasion. If someone has a better way of pricing Evasion (since it truly is so valuable) let me know.

On the trap subject, here is an idea:

Obvious Traps
In PbP, most traps are obvious. That is, characters can see as they approach the trapped area that something is wrong. Characters seldom search for traps, because there's no need; the traps are right there.

The challenge of traps, then, is not in finding them, but in overcoming them - players must decide what method to use to bypass the trapped area, and then roll the appropriate skills to see if their plan succeeds. For example:

The Sword-Bridge
The hallway floor drops away ahead of you, into a pit some 40' long and too deep to easily see the bottom. The only path spanning this bridge is a single metal strut, as narrow as a sword and as sharp as one too. Halfway across the pit you can spot a glyph scribbled on the ceiling; you recognise it as a magic-sapping rune that can interrupt spells.
(Possible solutions: affix pieces of wood or similar to shoe-soles and make a very difficult (target 17) balance roll; lower ropes into the put, cross it by foot and find a way to climb up the other side; or, make a relatively easy (target 4) but time-consuming construction roll to build a wider wooden bridge with the sword-bridge as a central support.)

The Anvil Room
The door opens into a room of suspicious construction. The floor is of a different material than any other floor you've seen in the building, and the ceiling is made of solid iron. The door at the other end is wide open, beckoning you; but something about the gouges and stains on the floor tells you it's not easy to reach.
(Possible solutions: Find or enchant some incredibly hard item, and carry it in with you to hold up the falling ceiling; use magic to move at super-speed across the room; or make a difficult and time-consuming (target: 14) construction effort to tunnel up through the ceiling of the previous room, exposing the gears of the crushing room and allowing you to disable them.)

On occasion, traps would still be hidden or have hidden components, but this should be both rare and predictable. Land-mined would be a good example of this; they all work pretty much the same way, there are standard means to detect them, and there are only certain areas where they're like to be places (open outdoor fields in strategic but rarely-traversed areas).

Skjaldbakka
2008-11-01, 09:53 PM
So basically, if you've got a guy with Alertness as a Core skill, there's no point in putting in Traps or Simple Traps, and they will complain about Heinous traps. It's got all the makings of a wonderful Drama Bomb.


I was concerned that I might now have worded that well. I think you have the impression with my idea that if anyone 'passes', the trap has no effect.

What I was trying to put forward was that the trap would effect everyone that fails.

You should probably have some kind of method for a 'trapfinder' to be able to increase the awareness of his allies for the purpose of traps. Perhaps he can add +1-3 to the awareness of his allies for the purpose of trapfinding?

(1 non-skill, 2 side skill, 3 core skill)

Note on Evasion (and Will, I suppose)

What if we don't make it a skill? Make it a stat, just like breath and spirit, that you have to buy up from 6. Although 6 is probably too high for a starting point.

You already have a mechanic for using a skill to boost evasion.

Just add a feat for each skill that could be used to increase evasion, and use the same mechanic.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-11-01, 10:18 PM
I was concerned that I might now have worded that well. I think you have the impression with my idea that if anyone 'passes', the trap has no effect.

What I was trying to put forward was that the trap would effect everyone that fails.

You should probably have some kind of method for a 'trapfinder' to be able to increase the awareness of his allies for the purpose of traps. Perhaps he can add +1-3 to the awareness of his allies for the purpose of trapfinding?

(1 non-skill, 2 side skill, 3 core skill)

Note on Evasion (and Will, I suppose)

What if we don't make it a skill? Make it a stat, just like breath and spirit, that you have to buy up from 6. Although 6 is probably too high for a starting point.

You already have a mechanic for using a skill to boost evasion.

Just add a feat for each skill that could be used to increase evasion, and use the same mechanic.

Then make Alertness a stat too? Some people are just more 'observant' than others? Could also be the stat used to resist Illusion effects?

Skjaldbakka
2008-11-01, 10:35 PM
I'd keep alertness as a skill. The point to making evasion a stat is so that you can make it more expensive to have at a high level.

Skjaldbakka
2008-11-04, 04:33 PM
I have a proposal. I don't think we can really keep up this thread, the IG playtest thread, and the OG playtest thread. Lets just let this thread die, and once we have all the kinks worked out of the system, AP can post a new thread with all the kinks worked out (and all the game mechanics properly lumped together in the first few posts).

Another_Poet
2008-11-04, 04:37 PM
That's fine with me. I'm going to keep this thread subbed and, if any major game mechanic discussions come up, I might post them here for lack of a better place. However, if (as seems more likely) this thread dies before the playtest is over that's fine with me. I've backed up all the rules posts in Word files anyway.

Also, Skjald, I have to say I like your initiative system in your Posthaste2 rules. I'm less wild about the to-hit/defence rules, since they contain no random chance and yet still require as much ping time as rolling. (I assume the DM will want to keep monster's defence stats secret from players, so the player still has to wait for an answer from the DM to know whether they hit & for how much damage, before they can take any contingent or subsequent actions.)

Skjaldbakka
2008-11-04, 04:48 PM
It is just a preview. At the moment, stats are going to be transparent. What you don't know is what special abilities they have, and what resources they have. Which is pretty much worked out, but not ready to post yet.