The diference, art, culture or what.

[Jayngfet]

Occasionally I find myself wondering...

...Just what seperates anime and manga from normal animation and comic books, and don't get me started on manwha.

Seriously, I'm not seeing anything that constitutes it's own name here, could someone fill me in?

[Innis Cabal]

They arnt different. They are all art/animation/etc. You can call a manga a comic book, or graphic novel, as thats what they would be in english. Manga, and many of the eastern comic styles, were influenced heavily by american animation, such as betty bopp and other classics of the old black and white era.

So what your really asking is, why dont we call them that here? Same reason we dont call Tonkatsu deep fried pork, or Udon as noodles. Its all based on art style, just like certain cooking styles.

[AslanCross]

There really isn't a definite difference. Most of the time I just use the terms to differentiate where they come from.

Anime does seem to have a wider range of subjects and target audiences than western animation (at least from what I've seen). Western animation in general is targeted at a younger audience, while anime spans a very broad spectrum. I mean, it's not like you'd make 5-year olds watch Evangelion (I doubt they'd enjoy it either.). The "animated media is for kids" mentality is what has caused some anime to get viciously sanitized for a younger audience.

On the other hand, it may just be that no animation producer in the West is willing to break out of the "animated media is for kids" paradigm. If someone does and begins a new trend, then the two halves of the animation world will probably become mostly indistinct, at least in terms of spirit.

[Oregano]

Ralph Bashski(sp?) it's spelt wrong but the point still stands.

I personally use it to differentiate art so thinks like Avatar to me are anime even though they're done in the west.

[Jayngfet]

Personally I never got defining it as an art style, lots of features can be disproven with minimal thought.

Small noses:3rd hokage

Big eyes: whole trope (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EyesAlwaysShut)

Can't really think of anything else that supposedly unifies them other than nationality.

[Oregano]

I don't think they are the onl defining featues of anime/manga, it's the hair, the lighting, body shapes, skin and everything it does look different than standard western animation(I say standard as there are exceptions such as Avatar)

[SurlySeraph]

The art style is really the only consistent difference. There are some differences in typical themes and tropes used, but there are exceptions to those differences.

[Jayngfet]

I don't think they are the onl defining featues of anime/manga, it's the hair, the lighting, body shapes, skin and everything it does look different than standard western animation(I say standard as there are exceptions such as Avatar)

If you pay close attention those don't even stay the same cowa and bleac look nothing alike for example.

[Oregano]

Maybe not but they'll be significant similarities and a lot of difference when you compare them to western animation(which itself is quite varied). There is variations to be expected but the base of which the two style are made from are different.

[Innis Cabal]

it used to be the art style, but just as american cartoons started to do more in the way of art, so to did manwha and manga. They are different by culture, not by execution. Thats it. They deserve sepereate names for the same reason everything you cook that has identical ingredents deserve the defferent names. Its called culture

[bluish_wolf]

Since everything is done on computers nowadays, does the term cartoon even have meaning anymore? It just seems like an obsolete term to me. It's better just to shorten animation to anime, animu or anima, depending on your preference.

As far as manga/comic book goes, the two terms can be used interchangeably - it doesn't matter.

[Moff Chumley]

The same reason East Coast and West Coast (American, that is) cuisines are different. The same ingreadients, the same cooking methods, but a different spirit.

[Innis Cabal]

The same reason East Coast and West Coast (American, that is) cuisines are different. The same ingreadients, the same cooking methods, but a different spirit.

Someone gets it, thankfully

[bluish_wolf]

A chicken is still called a chicken, no matter how you cook it.

[Dumbledore lives]

There really isn't a definite difference. Most of the time I just use the terms to differentiate where they come from.

Anime does seem to have a wider range of subjects and target audiences than western animation (at least from what I've seen). Western animation in general is targeted at a younger audience, while anime spans a very broad spectrum. I mean, it's not like you'd make 5-year olds watch Evangelion (I doubt they'd enjoy it either.). The "animated media is for kids" mentality is what has caused some anime to get viciously sanitized for a younger audience.

On the other hand, it may just be that no animation producer in the West is willing to break out of the "animated media is for kids" paradigm. If someone does and begins a new trend, then the two halves of the animation world will probably become mostly indistinct, at least in terms of spirit.

I'd just like to say there are animations aimed at older audiences. South Park, Family Guy, American Dad, are all aimed at older audiences. I don't think anyone would consider them anime. I think it does have to do with spirit and not animation style so much.

[Echowinds]

Most western cartoons don't take themselves very seriously though. Most of them are generally comical parodies. You can't really say South Park, Simpsons, or Family Guy to have any kind of serious plot going for them.

[kpenguin]

While anime and western animation have more in common than they are different, the fact is that the difference in the cultures that produce them cause for difference in the animation. This is why anime has its own set up of tropes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AnimeTrope).

Different cultures mean different values, different philosophies, different ways of looking at things. I have no doubt that if, let's say, Peru had a vibrant animation and comics industry that had been around for a while, the stuff produced would be different from both western animation and anime.

[Nibleswick]

A chicken is still called a chicken, no matter how you cook it.

Chicken is poultry, but poultry isn't always chicken.

There is a significant difference in the feel of pieces that come from different cultures and stylistic schools, this exists in all forms of art, I don't see why animation and (I'm gonna use the fancy-schmancy term) sequential art should be any different.


*snip*

Different cultures mean different values, different philosophies, different ways of looking at things. I have no doubt that if, let's say, Peru had a vibrant animation and comics industry that had been around for a while, the stuff produced would be different from both western animation and anime.

Exactly, I would mention that there are also significant differences even in "western animation" based on where the artists are from, look at things like Tin Tin, Asterix and Obelix, or Lucky Luke, then compare them to American comics.

[WalkingTarget]

Most western cartoons don't take themselves very seriously though. Most of them are generally comical parodies. You can't really say South Park, Simpsons, or Family Guy to have any kind of serious plot going for them.

Those three shows are all social satire (or have operated in that mode at some point, I honestly haven't watched new episodes of Family Guy or The Simpsons in recent years) and sometimes the ridiculousness of the situation is the point. Just getting that out there. King of the Hill is a standard situation comedy. It just happens to be animated.

The anime I've watched tended to have ongoing stories. There were stand-alone episodes from time to time, but there was almost always an over-arching plot, often of fixed duration. That last detail being important because it can force the show's plot to be much tighter.

A lot of western shows (live-action and animated) and American comics did not have this mentality until very recently. Even when they do have a specific plot going on, the TV shows are rarely all planned out ahead of time and it'll still wander a bit. I think the ongoing stories has been one of the major features of anime that's made it so popular (in addition to often, superior animation quality and a willingness to market to older audiences) and western media has finally started to catch on. I know that the art quality and foreign social cues aren't enough to get me into a particular show on its own (or to specifically push me away from it either), but superior storytelling from any source will generally do it.

[kpenguin]

Exactly, I would mention that there are also significant differences even in "western animation" based on where the artists are from, look at things like Tin Tin, Asterix and Obelix, or Lucky Luke, then compare them to American comics.

Indeed. I was going to mention that when people refer to "western animation", they mostly are thinking of American animation. There are differences in the way tropes are used in any given nation.

[AslanCross]

A chicken is still called a chicken, no matter how you cook it.

Yes, but one still differentiates between buffalo wings, KFC, keri ayam and tinolang manok.

The culture behind the dish surpasses the main ingredient.
Buffalo wings are covered in thick sauce and served with dip. KFC is deep-fried. Keri ayam is curry-based and spicy, while tinolang manok is boiled with broth and vegetables.

I don't think the distinction between Western animation and anime is irrelevant.



Exactly, I would mention that there are also significant differences even in "western animation" based on where the artists are from, look at things like Tin Tin, Asterix and Obelix, or Lucky Luke, then compare them to American comics.

I forgot about these. Thanks for bringing them up. Most of the time I only remember the stuff I see on Cartoon Network and Nickelodeon, along with the comics Marvel and DC produce.

Though the difference is that anime coming from Japan alone is diverse in itself, while the anime that comes from, say, the US alone is not. As a rule it's either for children or satire (The Simpsons, et al).

[bluish_wolf]

The culture behind the dish surpasses the main ingredient.
Buffalo wings are covered in thick sauce and served with dip. KFC is deep-fried. Keri ayam is curry-based and spicy, while tinolang manok is boiled with broth and vegetables.

That what we have genres for. I don't see why a Western anime comedy and an Eastern anime comedy should be called something different just because they have different countries of origin.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Point of origin is the only reason I use different terms. And you have to admit, there's, if not a cultural difference between how they're made, a cultural difference between how their originating countries perceive them. Japan animates damn near everything. The US and Europe, not so much.

Still, I'm just as likely to say "Japanese cartoons" as I am "anime".

[Nibleswick]

That what we have genres for. I don't see why a Western anime comedy and an Eastern anime comedy should be called something different just because they have different countries of origin.

No, because genre is a category describing a type of story, Sci-Fi, Fantasy, Historical Fiction, etc. Stylistic and cultural differences are independent of them. Let's go back to my earlier examples Tin Tin, Asterix, and Lucky Luke, while all three of them share much in art styles and story telling techniques they are in different genres, one is a modern adventure series, one is a fantasized historical fiction, and one is a western.

[Mr. Scaly]

This is a little off topic, but I did a small project years ago on just this topic. One of the lines I used was "when two friends have to fight to the death for the sake of honour and the fate of the world, that's anime. When anthropomorphic vegetables preach Christianity to children, that's a cartoon." I had some beef with Veggietales I think but that's part of the thing for me. It's been said already but subject matter, ongoing plot, target audiences all have a big part in defining anime.

[bluish_wolf]

No, because genre is a category describing a type of story, Sci-Fi, Fantasy, Historical Fiction, etc. Stylistic and cultural differences are independent of them. Let's go back to my earlier examples Tin Tin, Asterix, and Lucky Luke, while all three of them share much in art styles and story telling techniques they are in different genres, one is a modern adventure series, one is a fantasized historical fiction, and one is a western.

No, genre describes the style in which a story is told, not what it's about. Science Fiction explains how everything works in detail, Fantasy uses magic to move the story along, Historical Fiction... uses history. Anyway, none of these have anything to do with the actual plot, merely how the plot is presented. When you consider that, stylistic difference - for instance, how the characters are drawn, would be considered a genre, or actually, a subgenre.

[Serpentine]

No, genre describes the style in which a story is told, not what it's about. Science Fiction explains how everything works in detail, Fantasy uses magic to move the story along, Historical Fiction... uses history. Anyway, none of these have anything to do with the actual plot, merely how the plot is presented. When you consider that, stylistic difference - for instance, how the characters are drawn, would be considered a genre, or actually, a subgenre.I disagree. A picture of a bowl of fruit will always be a still life, but can be done in a Surrealist style, or an Impressionist, or an Abstract, or a Realistic, or any other styles. A landscape will always be a landscape no matter whether Surrealistic, Impressionistic, Abstracted or Realistic. Alternatively, look at Dali - all in the Surrealistic style, but he did still lifes, portraits, landscapes, dramatic scenes, etc. etc.. The subject is the genre, and the style is the... well, the style, the manner in which the subject is presented.
I think Japanese animation is distinct enough to be its own style, but it's certainly not a genre. I would just about suggest that Loony Tunes and Loony Tunes-like animation, say, could be its own style, as could Disney and Disney-like animation. Their usual respective genres would be something like "mad-cap surrealism" and "cutsie fantasy", just as Japanese animation aka anime is relatively frequently used for adult fantasy, science fiction or "real-life" drama. Note usual and relatively frequently. There are plenty of exceptions, as there will normally be multiple genres done in the one style, and multiple styles used to depict the one genre.

[Jayngfet]

No, genre describes the style in which a story is told, not what it's about. Science Fiction explains how everything works in detail, Fantasy uses magic to move the story along, Historical Fiction... uses history. Anyway, none of these have anything to do with the actual plot, merely how the plot is presented. When you consider that, stylistic difference - for instance, how the characters are drawn, would be considered a genre, or actually, a subgenre.

What about speculative fiction, Like Artemis fowl, of faerie wars, or Star wars?

[tyckspoon]

No, genre describes the style in which a story is told, not what it's about. Science Fiction explains how everything works in detail, Fantasy uses magic to move the story along, Historical Fiction... uses history. Anyway, none of these have anything to do with the actual plot, merely how the plot is presented. When you consider that, stylistic difference - for instance, how the characters are drawn, would be considered a genre, or actually, a subgenre.

There's two things that seem odd about this classification to me. First, your examples are nowhere near unique enough to be the defining factors of the genres. There's a large supply of fantasy in which things magical are treated as a science, with detailed explanation of how it all works. Does that mean it's all actually Science Fiction, despite being about completely impossible magic? Similarly, there are piles and piles of recognized sci-fi books that don't explain major items very well or in detail, to the point where they may as well be magic; does that make those books Fantasy? (Although the community's penchant for creating sub-genres does mean they're probably already classified as Science Fantasy or Space Opera or something.)

The other weird thing is what seems like contradictory statements- if a Fantasy is using magic to move its story along, how is its plot not about magic? If there were no magic, presumably the story would not be moving, and no plot would be happening.. I suppose you could move up a couple of meta-levels and say the plot isn't really about the magic, it's about.. growing up or delivering the world from a danger or something, but when you're at that remove the genre distinctions disappear and all the plots look the same anyway. Which maybe was your point?

[bluish_wolf]

I think Japanese animation is distinct enough to be its own style, but it's certainly not a genre.

That's kind of the point I'm trying to make. Anime should just refer to animation in general and we should differentiate based on how the characters are drawn or whatever, no matter where it came from.


What about speculative fiction, Like Artemis fowl, of faerie wars, or Star wars?

I never heard of that term before.



The other weird thing is what seems like contradictory statements- if a Fantasy is using magic to move its story along, how is its plot not about magic? If there were no magic, presumably the story would not be moving, and no plot would be happening..

A world that has magic is really more setting than plot, but that's beside the point.


I suppose you could move up a couple of meta-levels and say the plot isn't really about the magic, it's about.. growing up or delivering the world from a danger or something,

Right, which would be the theme. Why does it feel like I'm in an English class?

[Serpentine]

Anime specifically refers to Japanese animation, which does have a distinct style which is only recently being mimicked in other countries. Of course, anime started out being Japanese animators mimicking "western" animation but adding their own cheap-and-nasty touches like scenes in which noone and nothing moves for several minutes with the possible exception of the mouth and some eye-vibrations (don't get me wrong, I know there is some fantastic anime out there, and I've seen some truly beautiful stuff, but I don't get why even these great artists who hand-draw (or have hand-drawn) every frame with infinite magnificent detail and so obviously have a substantial budget, skill and time still employ these clearly time- and money-saving shortcuts...). On the other hand Surrealism came out of Dada, and they're certainly distinct styles... All of which has little point, really.

Alright, the dictionary definition of genre is basically "a style or categorisation", so I would suggest that what is really being discussed is the following:
Presentation genre (what I've been referring to as "style") - e.g. Surrealism in art, film noir in film, satire (maybe?) in literature.
Setting genre - e.g. fantasy, science fiction, "real world".
Plot/subject genre - e.g. quest, romance (or bodice-ripper :smallwink:), detective.
Obviously this system needs some serious tweaking, and I'm sure there's probably something someone's professionally worked out, but I think you get the idea. Of course, some styles might be more suited to a particular setting which might be perfect for a specific plot - for example, a detective story set in the real world depicted in film noir.

So, how is anime and manga, etc. different to "western" animation? Presentation genre, the art and stylisation. It may be more likely to be used to present particular settings or plots, but in these terms it's not unique or distinct enough to really be considered different.

edit: Hmm... All this has made me realise why the argument that "you can't hate all of anime!" really isn't true... You can just dislike a style. I really like Surrealism, and find most Abstract art to be boring. Some people might really hate film noir or a lot of horror cinematography. More specifically, someone might really love Disney-type cartoons and just really not get Loony Tunes (which especially argues against the "it's like saying you don't like any "western" cartoons" line, because it's not, it's more like saying you don't like a particular genre of "western" animation which is a massive industry full of its own categories).

[bosssmiley]

Occasionally I find myself wondering...

...Just what seperates anime and manga from normal animation and comic books, and don't get me started on manwha.

Seriously, I'm not seeing anything that constitutes it's own name here, could someone fill me in?

Anime/Manga - Japanese
Other animated cartoons/comic - not Japanese

The world really is a very simple place. :smalltongue:

[bluish_wolf]

Anime/Manga - Japanese
Other animated cartoons/comic - not Japanese

The world really is a very simple place. :smalltongue:

Unless you consider that people in Japan refer to stuff that's made in the West as anime as well.

Anime = short for animation. That's it.