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Lord_Asmodeus
2008-06-13, 06:47 PM
The premise is essentially, all the demon armies band together. For some inexplicable reason, the Burning Legion, the Daemons of Chaos (and all four Chaos Gods) the Demons of the Abyss, The demons/inferno from Heroes of Might and Magic, the demons in the Banned and the Banished series, and whoever else would be relevant (as large demonic forces of destructive evil, but the 5 mentioned are the biggest members of this foul coalition) Their goal is to destroy all universes, ever. Because they can. A particularly nasty ROB also makes it so whatever universe they step into, they get the average level of technology (but they always retain any kind of Magic they have, and the Chaos Gods always have the Warp). So, can any universe survive the onslaught of these evil demon hordes? Or will all fall into nothingness as all universes burn, accompanied by the mocking laughter of countless billions of demons?

For context, the size of their forces fit the context of the universe. I.E. in a fantasy verse, they come in the millions and millions, in a high tech verse they have billions to trillions upon billions to trillions.

GrassyGnoll
2008-06-13, 06:54 PM
Are there any other sort of demon armies?

My bet is on the universe with the combined forces of those opposed to said demonspawn. Or any universe with a "lol, omnipotent" character like Q or Doctor Who.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-06-13, 06:56 PM
Any demon army you can think of gets tossed in with the aforementioned demon armies. Those are just the ones I got off the top of my head, ideally this is ALL demon armies in fiction.

konfeta
2008-06-13, 07:32 PM
So. Stick in one of the Lovecraftian bunch. Everything else loses.

Except for Squirrel Girl of course. She kicks this "army's" ass and gets back home for supper time.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-13, 07:44 PM
Batman and Flash can win this one, that much is known.

The TTGL brigade could probably do it if the circumstances are dire enough. They can punch out Cthulhu, y'see.

Star wars and Ender can probably vaporize any physical enemy, but would lose to mental demons (Except possibly Green Lightning Luke, who is just that badass). Same with Evangelion, unless a mindrape turns Shinji from an emo kid into a hero proper.

D&D will just epic magic the stuffing out the fiends and simply make the demons blow 'em.

The Doomguy already killed them dead.

That's all I can think of.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-06-13, 07:50 PM
Batman and Flash can win this one, that much is known.

They can win a battle against every demonic horde that ever existed?


The TTGL brigade could probably do it if the circumstances are dire enough. They can punch out Cthulhu, y'see.

TTGL?


Star wars and Ender can probably vaporize any physical enemy, but would lose to mental demons (Except possibly Green Lightning Luke, who is just that badass)

Remember, they gain comparable tech levels. So this is magical demons with ships, and the technology to make more. Given the sheer number of them, even if they had shipyards literally MADE OF DEMONS, they could probably still outproduce the Empire :smalltongue:


Same with Evangelion, unless a mindrape turns Shinji from an emo kid into a hero proper.

What about having his body torn to shreds, and his soul fed to hungry demons?



D&D will just epic magic the stuffing out the fiends and simply make the demons blow 'em.

D&D itself is not a universe, its just a bunch of rules. The actual universes are whats getting invaded (so no retarded epic mages unless they ACTUALLY OCCUR... so Eberron and Forgotten Realms are screwed at least)




The Doomguy already killed them dead.

The DOOM marine killed the DOOM demons dead, but what about the millions of demons waiting behind them, all with technology on par with his, and magic to boot?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-13, 08:00 PM
They can win a battle against every demonic horde that ever existed?



TTGL?



Remember, they gain comparable tech levels. So this is magical demons with ships, and the technology to make more. Given the sheer number of them, even if they had shipyards literally MADE OF DEMONS, they could probably still outproduce the Empire :smalltongue:



What about having his body torn to shreds, and his soul fed to hungry demons?




D&D itself is not a universe, its just a bunch of rules. The actual universes are whats getting invaded (so no retarded epic mages unless they ACTUALLY OCCUR... so Eberron and Forgotten Realms are screwed at least)





The DOOM marine killed the DOOM demons dead, but what about the millions of demons waiting behind them, all with technology on par with his, and magic to boot?

Flash can run parallel and out of the flow of time. Give that to Bats and that invasion will never occur.

Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann.

Ender can just disintegrate them with a Little Doctor. The more that come, the merrier things go, because it causes a chain reaction of molecular disintegrations. Star Wars has Green Lightning, Force Storm, The Sun Crusher, etc.

Try piercing an eva, especially with an S2 engine. Practically impossible, and outright impossible when in Berserk Mode unless you have some kind of Reality Bending power or something equally powerful.

Elminster. Epic Inside. :smallamused:

Or Mordenkainen, AKA I Win.

One demon dies like another demon. And he killed John Romero, so he can definetely kill the small fry that you bring. And if it's not enough, he calls Duke Nukem and Sam Stone.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-06-13, 08:10 PM
Flash can run parallel and out of the flow of time. Give that to Bats and that invasion will never occur.

I seem to recall the power of the Burning Legion entering the world of Azeroth basically screwed up the time line so bad it was all Nozdormu, the master of time, could due to hold time together. Thats not even mentioning the "Reality, WTF is that?" powers of DA WARP!


Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann. Well... is Yog-Sothoth a demon? How about Azathoth? Because you know, they punch him, he wakes up and... no more universe :smallamused:


Ender can just disintegrate them with a Little Doctor. The more that come, the merrier things go, because it causes a chain reaction of molecular disintegrations. Star Wars has Green Lightning, Force Storm, The Sun Crusher, etc.

1. Remember, they have comparable tech, and many a competent strategist. Plus, there are bunches of portals opening up all over in solar systems (just in case I didn't post it:) They come through Demon Gates (via DEMON MAGIC!) however, due to the sheer size of the demonic hordes, these massive (context applied, in high tech ship-universes they come through planet to solar system sized portals in massive DEMON SHIPS!, but if its like a fantasy world they come through a large, like 30-40 foot high doorway style portal... OF DOOM!) portals (yes portals, as in more than one) must be opened up some distance away (either a solar system away in space, or at least one city away in fantasy) so theres no single choke point.

2. And the demons have countless billions, tech levels on par with the Empires, and MAGIC. I mean, the Burning Legion destroyed countless worlds, and THEY ARE FROM A FANTASY WORLD. They know what they're doing, and I doubt a few massive warships will get in their way.



Try piercing an eva, especially with an S2 engine. Practically impossible, and outright impossible when in Berserk Mode unless you have some kind of Reality Bending power or something equally powerful.

You mean like "I'm from a dimension without rules" kind of Reality Bending, or "MAGIC BITCH!" kind of Reality Bending? :smallamused:


Elminster. Epic Inside.

You're ****tin me, Elminster? That whiny little crybaby couldn't survive a day in his own world without Mystra being so damn overprotective, let alone a demon invasion, with critters that make Mystra look like a weakling mortal.



Or Mordenkainen, AKA I Win.

Or CTHULHU, AKA I win HARDER. (or, if all else fails, and you continue to use the ridiculous "I win" rules I'll just pull out the God of Dystopia, Azathoth, nothing wins against Azathoth. Nothing. Ever."


One demon dies like another demon. And he killed John Romero, so he can definetely kill the small fry that you bring. And if it's not enough, he calls Duke Nukem and Sam Stone.

You know, under any reasonable debate (which is what this is supposed to be) they would all die horribly.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-13, 08:26 PM
Screw time. Flash runs OUT of it. Time becomes an unimportant concept. It works like that.

TTGL: You don't get it. What that means is, since their series is based on tremendous idealism, their Power of Friendship can overcome demons. By author rules, that means they win.

As for the point about ender and Star wars, both have supremely powerful weapons, one of them self sustaining, the other one infinite. Whatever you throw at them, there's only a number of enemies you can stuff in a single place, and unlimited Point Defenses can down 'em.

As for dimension warping, I'm talking of "Mxyzptlk is a one dimension being to me" power. Either you have Hero magic, or you won't punch through.

And Elminster has the epic magic and the Mary Sue power, regardless of how much you dislike him. That means he can do Tippy tactics (And will do them, since by D&D rules he's more intelligent than Tippy, and will thus have prepared that strategy).

And Mordenkainen...he defeated Nyarlathotep. Lemme repeat: he defeated Nyarlathotep. The defense rests.

As for the Doomguy and co., you MUST read the Upgraded Chamberlain Official Rules one day. Action heroes can kill any enemy and are undefeateable, provided their suitable ending hasn't come yet.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-06-13, 08:35 PM
Screw time. Flash runs OUT of it. Time becomes an unimportant concept. It works like that.

See, how does this affect Daemons? The warp HAS NO CONCEPT OF TIME, and neither do they.


TTGL: You don't get it. What that means is, since their series is based on tremendous idealism, their Power of Friendship can overcome demons. By author rules, that means they win.

You can't win against Azathoth. This is the ultimate rule of everything.


As for the point about ender and Star wars, both have supremely powerful weapons, one of them self sustaining, the other one infinite. Whatever you throw at them, there's only a number of enemies you can stuff in a single place, and unlimited Point Defenses can down 'em.

1. And the Demons have COMPARABLE TECH. Meaning if they have unlimitated point defense, so do the demons (they have the capability) also meaning if they have big guns, the demons can have big guns too. And I don't recall it being infallible, it just worked on Enders big brain. There's no accounting for the cleverness of the immortal.


As for dimension warping, I'm talking of "Mxyzptlk is a one dimension being to me" power. Either you have Hero magic, or you won't punch through.

Wheres your proof of this? How can you prove the sort of reality bending employed regularly by the likes of Daemons and the Burning Legion and Cthulhu will have no effect?


And Elminster has the epic magic and the Mary Sue power, regardless of how much you dislike him. That means he can do Tippy tactics (And will do them, since by D&D rules he's more intelligent than Tippy, and will thus have prepared that strategy).

And again, when you deploy "retarded rules" against me, I use Azathoth. I win. And I don't remember Elminster becoming epic, or doing anything like the retarded rules exploitation thats rife in epic. I mean, unless it was after the whole, Elminster in Hell thing, he seems very susceptible to getting his ass kicked.


And Mordenkainen...he defeated Nyarlathotep. Lemme repeat: he defeated Nyarlathotep. The defense rests.

Azathoth.


As for the Doomguy and co., you MUST read the Upgraded Chamberlain Official Rules one day. Action heroes can kill any enemy and are undefeateable, provided their suitable ending hasn't come yet.

See, I don't care. You CAN NOT beat Azathoth. Azathoth is everything, Azathoth is nothing, Azathoth is outside of reality, and he IS reality. Everything that ever is, ever was, and ever shall be is but a figment of his sleeping mind. He is the only true eternal, and he is omnipotent, in every sense of the word.

Edit: How was this supposed-to-be serious debate instantly turn into "lets throw the most retardedly stupid things at the demons, just because we can?" I mean, whatever stupid thing like, "doomguy and co win because some random rule says so" you throw at me, I will say AZATHOTH. Nothing can win against Azathoth, trying to is futile, for everything is just his dream.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-13, 08:45 PM
If you're so convinced Azathoth will win, why the hell did you ask for contestants? If you only want to proclaim his superiority, I'll just say Two P and call it a day.

As for Elminster, check the epic level handbook. He's an epic wizard alright. So yeah, Tippy tactics.

Also, I had a hilarious idea. Azathoth is the god of many religions. Explains the behavior you have. And with that, I'm out.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-06-13, 08:48 PM
I didn't WANT to involve **** like AZATHOTH or Tengen Toppa, (or DOOM marine for that matter) what I wanted, was to actually have a serious debate matching the magic and cunning and strengths of the demons without having to worry about the constraints of technology to various universes. I probably wouldn't have minded it devolving to those kinds of things EVENTUALLY, after other, more reasonable things were talked about first, but you just threw out the most retardedly powerful, and rediculously stupid things you could think of out first. Fine, it can be silly, but can it be serious for more than FOUR frigging posts first?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-13, 08:54 PM
No. You throwed out cosmic horrors. I refuse to debate if I'm forced to stick with the media equivalent of sticks and stones (LotR and Catcher in the Rhye). I have never played in a Kobayashi Maru scenario, and I'm not going to start for you.

Innis Cabal
2008-06-13, 08:55 PM
So your saying.....they get comprable powers no matter where they go.....plus their numbers.....this isnt really a versus or survival thing, its a no win situation. Nothing can beat an equal enemy plus hordes on hordes of demons that can curcumvent time, warp where ever they wish etc.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-06-13, 08:58 PM
I didn't even MENTION the Lovecraftians until you threw out TENGEN TOPPA! TENGEN TOPPA MAN! what the hell were you THINKING? "Hey, I wonder how I can ruin any chance of there being any sensible debate quickest, oh I know, I'll jump straight to the universe with mecha that stand on galaxies, and peoples power is measured in how much they believe in friendship" :smallmad: I mean seriously. I threw out DEMONS, KONFETA mentioned lovecraftians, but I said DEMONS (and to be honest I don't think of lovecraftians as demons, they're abberations) So can we discuss some halfway reasonable universe now, like World of Darkness? :smallyuk::smallamused:

Innis Cabal
2008-06-13, 08:59 PM
I didn't WANT to involve **** like AZATHOTH or Tengen Toppa, (or DOOM marine for that matter) what I wanted, was to actually have a serious debate matching the magic and cunning and strengths of the demons without having to worry about the constraints of technology to various universes. I probably wouldn't have minded it devolving to those kinds of things EVENTUALLY, after other, more reasonable things were talked about first, but you just threw out the most retardedly powerful, and rediculously stupid things you could think of out first. Fine, it can be silly, but can it be serious for more than FOUR frigging posts first?

No.....not with what you've provided. You asked what would survive.....he gave you what he thought would survive and you instantly came up with things that could beat what he put out there...Like i said earlier.....this is a pointless debate as the rules and situations provided are so utterly devoid of reason i actually want another Sauron thread

As for WoD......the human world loses....like everything else....they get the Demons....which includes Satan......I'm done here as well

Illiterate Scribe
2008-06-13, 09:01 PM
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/1402/showiq6.jpg
'sup.

I hear you have a demon/closed space creature problem?

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-06-13, 09:02 PM
No.....not with what you've provided. You asked what would survive.....he gave you what he thought would survive and you instantly came up with things that could beat what he put out there...Like i said earlier.....this is a pointless debate as the rules and situations provided are so utterly devoid of reason i actually want another Sauron thread

As for WoD......the human world loses....like everything else....they get the Demons....which includes Satan......I'm done here as well

Actually, its more like me asking "What universe could survive the borg" and someone else jumping instantly to LOVECRAFT. I mean, at least try to have something in the same ballpark, like Ender.... or CULTURE for god sakes.


So your saying.....they get comprable powers no matter where they go.....plus their numbers.....this isnt really a versus or survival thing, its a no win situation. Nothing can beat an equal enemy plus hordes on hordes of demons that can curcumvent time, warp where ever they wish etc.

Well the premise was supposed to be more, "Daemons and demons in realtime with comparable tech" and numbers would be contextual to the universe they were in (so like SW, which has billions of people, there would be billions of demons in total)

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-13, 09:09 PM
Asmodeus, you brought out the daemons of chaos. Freakin' DAEMONS OF CHAOS, MAN! *Turns off imitiation*. Those are cosmic horrors too, it's not just Cthulhu that has the title. If, as you always say, Tzeentch always wins even if you defeat him and he has a "Just as planned" roulette for anything, and he can warp the world, why the hell do you expect some kind of restraint? Unless you go Sympathy for the Devil (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mM-VvLvmV6o) and give YOURSELF some restraint, I'll stand by the absurdly powerful beings.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-06-13, 09:13 PM
1. I never said that about Tzeentch
2. That applies mostly in the Warp. This would not take place in the Warp.
3. I mentioned the Daemons being there, in realspace of another universe. They are not in the warp. the Chaos Gods will just be ominous background figures "Who will not take part and will pull back if their forces are beaten) as with the other uber powerful demons. But lesser demons apply.

The point was SUPPOSED to be "Daemons and Demons from various universes match their cunning and strengths and magic and blah blah blah, versus various other universes" with numbers and technology that is comparable so its "even" I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-13, 09:20 PM
Well, if we go by that, that's better.

But it still means we have to pull out the insane stuff, or the overpowered stuff at least. Pound by pound, a demon is more powerful than most heroes, let alone the normal everyman (A Balor, for example, is out of reach of anyone but ultratechies, high power wizards, or mythic badasses). With comparable tech, it's not a valid comparison. Earth has 6 billion people. That 0.0001% can fight demons well doesn't matter when you have such a gross numerical advantage.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-06-13, 09:23 PM
Well, it would be contextual, again. I mean, Demons stepping into SW would get billions and billions... in a universe that likely has trillions upon trillions of people. And they don't instantly get SSD's or anything, they get a couple fleets, which are of comparable tech level (but demon design) and from there they have to construct their own forces. So they arrive in the galaxy, and they aren't going to just get swept away by a patrol, but neither can they go rampaging across the galaxy straight away.

Edit: And I think demons like Archimonde and Kil'jaeden should be able to come through because, despite their ability to turn the tides of battles singlehandedly... thats more of the "thousands" level of people. I mean, mighty as they are, I don't see them surviving broadsides from SD's.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-06-13, 09:33 PM
Then, the higher powered universes have a chance. My bet is that Star wars would win, so would Gilgamesh's Summeria, the comic book universes win too, The Belgariad mages would probably win if they actually used the Orb, and actually, most magical universes win. Modern world universes lose horribly without magic, though. And WoD probably loses.

Finn Solomon
2008-06-13, 09:40 PM
Oooh, throw in the Spawn demons too.

Dorizzit
2008-06-13, 09:55 PM
Pun-Pun. That is all.

tyckspoon
2008-06-13, 10:15 PM
I don't think it's fair to invoke the great Lovecraftian horrors as demons, considering the horde's motivating factor is 'destroying everything because they can' and the really nasty Lovecraft creations don't have that.. they just Are, and they're More Than You. And even if they are somehow involved, if we're going that high on the one-upmanship, Gurren Lagann still wins. Yes, even if they have to destroy Azathoth and all reality and non-reality to do it. They'll just make a new one. Which is completely impossible, but doing that kind of thing is the point of Gurren Lagann.

Mr. Scaly
2008-06-13, 10:33 PM
Star Trek would live if the Q continuum and all the other 'Greater than Thou' races decided to do something. Heck, there was one guy who wiped out an entire species in a moment of grief.

CannibalHymn
2008-06-13, 10:42 PM
GWAR has probably already done this on at least one tour.

Mr. Scaly
2008-06-13, 10:45 PM
GWAR who? Never heard of him/it.

chiasaur11
2008-06-13, 11:55 PM
You know, your whole "demons can beat everyone" schtick is getting old.

If you say "what could survive" and then ignore the guys who can take hell by themselves, with armies, or by turning them against each other, just so hell can win, what's the point?

Also: The Disc. Death has killed Death and Rock and Roll. By his lonesome he could take the horde. Weatherwax, Vimes, or Vetinari would just be icing.

D_Lord
2008-06-14, 12:07 AM
If it is every universe then they aren't going to get to every one. The odds are they'll run into something sooner or later that can eat them all for a snack and have room for alot more.

CannibalHymn
2008-06-14, 12:58 AM
GWAR who? Never heard of him/it.

GWAR is a group of aliens, formerly members of the mercenary company Scumdogs of the Universe, who were exiled from space to earth, where they created humans by having sex with apes, then got frozen in Antarctica until Sleezy P. Martini got ahold of them and decided to market the murderous aliens as a rock band, using a tremendous addiction to crack to control them. They've had a long, wild series of adventures, including summoning a dinosaur to eat America after Oderus, the singer's, genitals were confiscated by the police on an obscenity charge, killing Satan to escape from the level of hell reserved for mediocre metal bands after they died.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-06-14, 07:15 AM
I don't think it's fair to invoke the great Lovecraftian horrors as demons, considering the horde's motivating factor is 'destroying everything because they can' and the really nasty Lovecraft creations don't have that.. they just Are, and they're More Than You. And even if they are somehow involved, if we're going that high on the one-upmanship, Gurren Lagann still wins. Yes, even if they have to destroy Azathoth and all reality and non-reality to do it. They'll just make a new one. Which is completely impossible, but doing that kind of thing is the point of Gurren Lagann.


You know, your whole "demons can beat everyone" schtick is getting old.

If you say "what could survive" and then ignore the guys who can take hell by themselves, with armies, or by turning them against each other, just so hell can win, what's the point?

Also: The Disc. Death has killed Death and Rock and Roll. By his lonesome he could take the horde. Weatherwax, Vimes, or Vetinari would just be icing.

{Scrubbed}


1. I never said that about Tzeentch
2. That applies mostly in the Warp. This would not take place in the Warp.
3. I mentioned the Daemons being there, in realspace of another universe. They are not in the warp. the Chaos Gods will just be ominous background figures "Who will not take part and will pull back if their forces are beaten) as with the other uber powerful demons. But lesser demons apply.

The point was SUPPOSED to be "Daemons and Demons from various universes match their cunning and strengths and magic and blah blah blah, versus various other universes" with numbers and technology that is comparable so its "even" I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.

I never included lovecraftian horrors, or went overboard on the "they can kill everything" till the "retard strength" universe, and the "I Win Because I Say So" universe were introduced. But you know, if you want to blatantly ignore what I post in favor of bashing me for something I didn't like in the first place, go ahead.

CannibalHymn
2008-06-14, 11:11 AM
I think the probelm people have is that the OP is pretty silly. I mean, the universe is going to fight with no technological or numerical advantage against a horde of daemons which also have superpowers on top of their equal numbers and technology.

Why would you not expect the stupidly powerful universes? The foe you've designed is, itself, stupidly powerful. For a universe to survive, they need superpowers equal to, at least, the combined powers of dozens of universes. For a universe to win, they need better superpowers than the superpowers of a bunch of dimensions put together. Any you're calling foul on stupidly powerful universes? The enemy they're fighting is stupidly powerful.
Just to comment on your "FR is gone comment," FR is one of the more stupidly powerful universes. It has a bartender who's epic.

Now, traditionally speaking, I think TTGL's inclusion actually makes a lot of sense. Demons or demons-with-an-a-in-their-names have, classically, been creatures that fed off mortal evil and used their cunning to seduce mortals to their sway. If you look from Faust to Devil Went Down to Georgia, demons have not traditionally been defeated, or defeated mortals, through force of arms. The battle is, in fact, more ideological. TTGL represent that very battle, with their strength being based primaly based in the tenacity of their ideals, their faith in friendship, a good, anti-demonic quality. Thus, their friendship would overpower the evil of the de(a)mon hordes, metaphysically, allowing them to triumph physically with a few good punches.

Finally, I wasn't remotely joking. GWAR has to find a creature or horde thereof in the cosmos they cannot destroy with cartoonish ultraviolence. Also, if they die, they go to hell, which means they just get to start flanking the invading demon army as they fight their way back into it. They're certified in GWAR canon is too stupid or drug-addled for psychic powers to work on them (with the exception of the Jagermonster's psionic drunkedness effect, which Balzac still resisted by virtue of already being drunk). So no-matter how often physical demons kill them, they just fight their way out of hell over and over, and mental demons trying to invade them just get an intimate knowledge of how not to play the guitar.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-06-14, 11:19 AM
The technological thing is because otherwise they could not compete with technological universes, AT ALL. And they don't have the same numbers. In a universe with trillions of people, there would be billions of demons in total. And TTGL would be fine, if it was actually LIKE Daemons in that they have something approaching limited power. The Daemons of the Warp are only as powerful as the emotions that make them, whereas TTGL takes that kind of thinking, and then makes it retardedly strong, where friendship and hope give you the ability to fight using giant mecha on galaxies. You can't compare the two, one is a universe where humanities darkest thoughts give birth to unholy monsters, and the other is a universe where believing in yourself gives you the power to do the impossible, because you say so. There are no limits on TTGL, this is untrue for Daemons. And I have no idea what GWAR you are referring to.

Edit: and no, the demons AREN'T stupidly powerful, especially with the limitations on them. They can't reform star systems, or stand on galaxies, or any of that crap, they are powerful for their universes, but even there they have limits. If they were stupidly powerful, they would not need to be debated. Demons die just like anything else, they just happen to be tough, cunning, evil, and resourceful. Considering that even with the tech advantage they don't instantly become the end all power in the universe they come into means that its an actual FIGHT. I don't make threads involving epic magic, and TTGL, because they ARE stupidly powerful, and are ridiculous I WIN buttons. Demons, even in their own universes, have to fight for their victories, and thats what they have to do here. The reason for combining all the demon armies together is to combine all their inherent strengths, but if you just throw them as they are at universes like SW, they lose, because as powerful as Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden are in WC, they won't survive a bombardment from an SD.

CannibalHymn
2008-06-14, 12:44 PM
See, in making them equal to whatever foe their against, but with the combination of a bunch of demon powers, your asking for a universe with a ridiculous enough amount of power to outdo all of those demon powers.

As for numbers, you said "billions upon trillions" in the first post, I believe. That's a lot different than billions against trillions. In that case, they're losing by orders of magnitude. Just throw bodies at 'em in any universe with comparable technology and they're gone, eventually, if they're outnumbered essentially a thousandfold.

TTGL doesn't really need to go to limitless extremes in this case, though, so the fact that it can is wholly immaterial to the debate. They just need to go one better than the demons can, which, if their belief in friendship is stronger than general wickedness and evil, they can. How high their power levels can go doesn't really matter, as long as they go higher than that of the demon army, by virtue of their friendship being stronger than hatred. So whether they can outdo them by a little or a hundred times over isn't really relevant. They can outdo them. Even if you put a limit against re-arranging star systems and standing on galaxies, they'd still outdo demons by virtue of the classic literary debate.

I already explained that GWAR was a heavy metal band comprised of extremely amoral aliens who were forzen in the antarctic wastes after creating humanity by having sexual itnercourse with apes. They were revived in the 1980s by Sleezy P. Martini, who made them into a rock band. Since then, they've have wacky, ridiculously violent adventures across the universe, re-enacted in their popular, theatrical tours. Death, obscenity lawsuits, and the barriers of good taste cannot stop their power!
Watch them here: GWAR! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWRKlNlRsgI)

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-06-14, 02:10 PM
See, in making them equal to whatever foe their against, but with the combination of a bunch of demon powers, your asking for a universe with a ridiculous enough amount of power to outdo all of those demon powers.

But they aren't equal to start with. They have the capability for the same technology as the average inhabitants of a universe, but they don't start out with high end technology.


As for numbers, you said "billions upon trillions" in the first post, I believe. That's a lot different than billions against trillions. In that case, they're losing by orders of magnitude. Just throw bodies at 'em in any universe with comparable technology and they're gone, eventually, if they're outnumbered essentially a thousandfold.

I used the wrong "terminology" and the thing is, its not like everyone is going to know the second they arrive, and everyone is going to throw all their weight behind killing them immediately. You just assume that its "all these demons vs everyone in a universe at once" but its not, its "they arrive, with the goal of killing everyone in this universe, then moving on to the next. And its not like they're limited to the numbers they start out with, they just don't have unlimited numbers.


TTGL doesn't really need to go to limitless extremes in this case, though, so the fact that it can is wholly immaterial to the debate. They just need to go one better than the demons can, which, if their belief in friendship is stronger than general wickedness and evil, they can. How high their power levels can go doesn't really matter, as long as they go higher than that of the demon army, by virtue of their friendship being stronger than hatred. So whether they can outdo them by a little or a hundred times over isn't really relevant. They can outdo them. Even if you put a limit against re-arranging star systems and standing on galaxies, they'd still outdo demons by virtue of the classic literary debate.

Yea but see, it DOES matter. If TTGL wasn't pretty much assured to go to their retarded levels of power, you might have a case, but as it stands its like someone asking "what can stop (insert powerful fantasy army here)" and someone instantly jumping to STAR WARS. I mean sure you could MENTION it, but you don't need to, because of the massive disparity in power, its not necessary to even bring it up. Just like one SD could nuke a fantasy army from orbit, noone needs to mention a universe that deals with mecha that fight on top of galaxies against big demon armies.

Thiel
2008-06-14, 04:36 PM
Hmm, I believe that the Festival from Singularity Sky by Charles Stross might win.
I'm assuming that magic manifests as the creation and/or manipulation of matter and energy and that demons has to have a physical body of some kind.
I know that assumption violates the traditional view of demons*, but I believe it's necessary since the universe doesn't have magic or any kind of psychic abilities and as such doesn't have any way of fighting them.
Demons are tough, intelligent and devious beings. They feast on human emotions and, depending on the interpretation, their flesh.
The Festival on the other hand is arguably neither of those things. It's a universe spanning "entity" comprised entirely of nano machines in constant search for information. I believe it'll win because because it's far more advanced than the average civilization and because it's far, far more productive than anybody else. (It's capable of building several factories the size of a continent, an unknown number of kilometre-long starships and several megatons of antimatter in about a month)

If a demon attack it physically you'll kill a humongous amount of nano-machines, but it'll also release a humongous amount of energy, which the Festival can use to build more machines.
Another thing about the Festival. It has no sanity. It's not insane, it just is. I'm not certain whether it's sentient and it can be argued both ways whether it's a being at all. As such you can't drive it insane or manipulate it in any other way. It will only attack you if you attack first, but since the demons are here to destroy everything that shouldn't be a problem.
So, the demons arrive and they kick the bahooleys out of all the humans they meet, then at some point they bump into the Festival, they attack it and gets eaten by an ocean of grey goo.

*In folklore, a demon is an evil spirit that can take on a corporeal body. You can kill the body, but you can't kill the spirit.

tyckspoon
2008-06-14, 05:36 PM
But they aren't equal to start with. They have the capability for the same technology as the average inhabitants of a universe, but they don't start out with high end technology.


Ok, this isn't the same position you were arguing from earlier. For example, when Ender's universe was bought up, it was suggested that the Little Doctor could be used to readily destroy near-limitless hordes of demons. Your response was that no, technological equivalence means the demons can shoot down the delivery system (that is, assuming Ender's universe itself has that capacity.) It looked like you were saying that the demons did automatically become the technological equals of whoever they were fighting, which is why it seemed like a lost cause- technologically based universes couldn't get ahead with their own talents, and then they had to deal with unfamiliar magic and large numbers on top. So we have to resort to fictions that have things the demons cannot possibly match, like the Spiral Energy-based machines of Gurren Lagann. Even if the demons did get Ganmen, they wouldn't be of much use.

Since you have now clarified that the demons do in fact have to work to acquire their new technology, it's a much fairer situation. Now the tech universes can exploit their edge for as long as they can keep it. That is, as long as you don't now claim that magic means the demons can acquire the knowledge and manufacture of any new technology without actually having to do anything to work for it.

CannibalHymn
2008-06-14, 07:42 PM
Yeah, I'd say with the updated conditions, most tech universes have them dead-to-rights. With advanced tech, including early detection,an early edge, and a massive numbers advantage, it's very possible a lot of high-tech universes would be able to spot the invasion when it was weak and small and "nip it in the bud".

I'm, again, not mentioning power levels with TTGL, I'm bringing in the tradition of such conflicts. It was a valid direction to go, if not in terms of power level, in terms of power source, they would counter demonic power in a very successful way even if we put a limit saying that they can't stand on galaxies. Anything else that mentions "the power of love/friendship" stands a similarly good chance.