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View Full Version : spiderman 3: what should have been done?



krossbow
2008-06-14, 10:56 AM
Its an old movie, but with Spiderman 4 essentially being confirmed (http://www.slashfilm.com/article.php/20060824spiderman4-confirmed) , what do you think they did wrong with the third movie, so that we can hope they DON'T do it in the fourth?




Personally, i thought the biggest flaw was how rushed the movie's pace seemed. Cramming 2 villians in just didn't give enough time to develop either, and made for some hackneyed backstories and plots (Blah; they hardly even touched on the symbiote having a mind of its own, it just seemed to alter the person instead of having its own thoughts. And truth be told, the suit essentially acts like a jealous ex)


I hope they only have one villian in the fourth instead of two.




What things do you guys think went wrong?

SteveMB
2008-06-14, 11:19 AM
A few things I would have done differently.

1. Have Harry Osborne's discovery of the truth about his father's last confrontation with Spider-Man be less deus ex machina (or perhaps show him being sufficiently worried about MJ to consider putting the grudge aside for the time being). Ideally, the situation could be made sufficiently ambiguous that he races to the battle site with the audience unsure of which side he's going to be on.

2. As you suggest, cut down on the number of villains (save Venom for later).

Twin2
2008-06-14, 11:27 AM
Stop making all the villains sympathetic. Most of them don't have sick children, or lose their wife in front of them. They are either *******s, or thugs who get a stroke of luck that lets them try for greater things then their previous station in life afforded them.

Dode
2008-06-14, 11:34 AM
They had three villains in Spider-Man 3: Green Goblin 2, although switching at the end, was an antagonist for the the rest of the movie.

Simply reducing it to one villain has problems of its own, because neither GG2, Venom or Sandman are especially "iconic" badguys.

What I would have done was just trim it to Venom and Harry Osborn and scrap Sandman (no matter how amazing that CGI was, Sandman is lame). Keeping a bit closer with the original comics, Osborn approaches Venom in an ambush to kill Spider-Man, only to turn on Venom in a moment of clarity when he remembers that Peter is his best friend, dying in the process.

Gundato
2008-06-14, 11:49 AM
One dance scene is too much
So, what did the symbiote do actually? It made Eric Foreman into a psychopath, but Peter just ate milk and cookies?
Too many villains.
"Well, you killed my uncle, stole a lot of stuff, and almost killed me a few times in the past hour alone. But I forgive you, now you go on and get."
"Damn Spider-Man, killing my crazy dad who didn't even like me. What's that Alfred? You are now a forensic scientist and figured out that my dad died from his own glider? Well, there is no way Peter could have smacked someone with a glider, so he must be innocent! Yay, time to go be a good guy!"
"Wow, I am supposed to be a super scientist, but I am not at all concerned that I woke up on the side of a building in a new outfit that tells me to dance"
Why the hell was Bruce Campbell not an ass this time around?
Mary Jane is a shallow skank. Wait, that is actually true of the 616 comics too. Never mind.


Honestly, after the travesty that was Spider-Man 3, they should just do the Ultimate Spider-Man movies. Then again, I might be biased (I giggle like a 12-year old girl when I read those).

Kyeudo
2008-06-14, 01:01 PM
Things that could have gone better:


Mary Jane could have acted like less of an idiot when it came to her relationship.
Peter could have acted like less of an idiot through the whole movie.
Sand Man could have been given an actual reason for wanting to kill Spiderman, other than Spiderman being a pain in the rear.
Harry's Heel Face Turn could have been handled without the Deus Ex Machina. I don't care if he still thought Peter killed his dad when it's all over, but I don't want Phil the Magic Butler as a solution.
Venom needed more development.
No Emo Bangs. They looked horrible.


Fixing these problems would probably have added a ton of length to the movie and caused the movie to be split into two films, which would have been a good idea. Venom is awesome enough to deserve it.

Dryken
2008-06-14, 06:23 PM
- No emo haircuts. NO. I get a smart suit or impressive clothing, but the haircut just made me laugh.

- Personally I think Eddie Brock should have looked a little...tougher. And I dunno...becoming filled with rage because you got caught doing something really wrong is kind of...stupid.

Gundato
2008-06-14, 07:04 PM
I just found it funny how Eddie Foreman was the most likable character in the movie (who was not portrayed by Bruce Campbell).

Of course, if the trailer of the Hulk Vs Blonsky fight is any indication, I am going to LOVE Tim Roth in the Incredible Hulk.

krossbow
2008-06-14, 09:48 PM
I also have to admit, really, if your trying to portray peter's struggle with his darkside... well, have him be a little more EVIL.


His attempts at being evil reminded me of Garland from 8-bit theater. Really; eating cookies, getting an emo haircut? The worst he did was punch MJ, and given her preformance in the movie, i just couldn't bring myself to give a damn. It reminds me of Superman's "EVIL!" pranks in superman three, wherein he straightened the great tower of pisa.



Okay, so he tried to melt sandman; the guy who killed his uncle and nearly killed A bunch of people earlier in a robbery.









Overall, i really liked how they destroyed the Symbiote in the movie, incorporating both sound AND fire into its demise, but the rest of the movie just seemed off.





I hope in the next movie they stick to a single overarching villian instead of a 3 man pileup like this one.
Also, while unlikely, Bruce Campbell would be great as a villian if they decided to give him an actual role.








Edit: I think this video essentially shows everything wrong (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoNgMVFQNBI) with spiderman 3

Anteros
2008-06-15, 12:41 AM
The suit never made Pete evil though. Just kinda jerky. He took it off before it did any real damage to his persona. And Brock was perfect. He didn't start off as a huge tough guy...he developed that over the years after bonding with the symbiote.

At the time of the movie they didn't think they were going to be able to make any more, so they threw venom in. After all, if they did a Spidey trilogy without Venom we would hate it. They are probably regretting it now...but we can't change the past, so no reason to dwell on it.

Mo_the_Hawked
2008-06-15, 02:05 AM
I think that Forman should have played Electro. Two second tier villains like Electro and the Sandman, combined with the first half of the symboite saga coulda worked. With Electro being the classic bad guy villain and Sandman being the more sympathitic kind. And then in four give him another second tier guy like...Mysterio(played by the one the only Bruce Campbell) have him beat Mysterio in like the first 3rd of the movie, wilst starting the strirrings of venom messing with Peter, and then spend the rest of the time dealing with it.

stm177
2008-06-15, 11:40 AM
Drop Sandman and Venom.

It might be too "Darker and Edgier" but I'd have Harry kill Mary Jane, and then Peter (even if he's in the black suit) forces himself not to kill Harry after a battle royale with cheese.

BooTheHamster
2008-06-15, 06:51 PM
I'll probably be treated like the plague for this, but Spiderman 3 was actually my favorite of the three. Most of my friends agree. I actually liked the dancing and the emo-ness because it was funny. Like it or not, Peter Parker is a geeky, nerdy, nice kid who suddenly has super-powers, EVIL just wouldn't have been believable. He was just depressed and angry, so he acted out. Struggling with his dark side doesn't mean he has to burn down orphanages or anything. The suit, as was mentioned in the movie, only increases his aggressiveness and can't make you do anything you don't already want to do, as Eddie Brock himself said in the comics.

I also think there was a serious emotional depth to this movie that was lacking in the other two. This wasn't about the villains or Spiderman himself as much as it was about Peter and Mary Jane, and I think most people went in expecting to see another movie of Spiderman fighting baddies, with everything else as background noise. Frankly, this shift was necessary because, otherwise, you have the same basic movie every time and never explore the actual characters. It'd be like watching DBZ, you don't really get much out of it.

I also think Venom got enough on-screen time. That's right, I said it. He's not that great or 'deep' a villain as to get really developed, whereas Eddie Brock is. The evil of this Venom started before the symbiote even touched him, the suit just gave him the power to act out, so showing Venom running after Spiderman for an extra hour wouldn't be as satisfying as you might think. Besides, the parallel between Peter and Eddie was essential to showcase the 'evil is subjective' theme inherently ingrained in just about any superhero story.

But maybe it's just me.

Mo_the_Hawked
2008-06-15, 08:53 PM
They could of just did the Black Costume story and ended the movie with the symboite dripping onto Eddie.

Twin2
2008-06-17, 12:15 AM
I'll probably be treated like the plague for this, but Spiderman 3 was actually my favorite of the three. Most of my friends agree. I actually liked the dancing and the emo-ness because it was funny. Like it or not, Peter Parker is a geeky, nerdy, nice kid who suddenly has super-powers, EVIL just wouldn't have been believable. He was just depressed and angry, so he acted out. Struggling with his dark side doesn't mean he has to burn down orphanages or anything. The suit, as was mentioned in the movie, only increases his aggressiveness and can't make you do anything you don't already want to do, as Eddie Brock himself said in the comics.


Did peter turn evil in the comics? I always assumed it was like the 90's cartoon where it amplified agression, and almost made peter do some bad things until he realized it prompting the suit's removal.

krossbow
2008-06-17, 12:44 AM
Did peter turn evil in the comics? I always assumed it was like the 90's cartoon where it amplified agression, and almost made peter do some bad things until he realized it prompting the suit's removal.



Depends on the universe. in the ultimate spiderman universe it almost drove him to murder, and definitely drove him down a darker path.

Xuincherguixe
2008-06-17, 05:48 AM
Poor editing really. They should have done more with Venom, and Sand Man just isn't that interesting a Villain. Having 3 villains, one of whom does a heel face turn could have been pulled off, but it's probably too many.

They could have done the heel face turn a lot better too.

krossbow
2008-06-17, 08:08 AM
Also, Sandman's backstory really, REALLY sucked.


I mean, okay, you see he has a sick daughter. Then you NEVER see here again. ever. So, is he fighting for her here? Trying to raise money? Because i never really see that fleshed out again.




Don't get me wrong; Sandman and a daughter can be done brilliantly; hell look at Spiderman: reign had a great heelface turn after he sees his daughter die before his eyes, but the movie just didn't do it well.






Things just weren't fleshed out enough. Its like trying to bake 3 cakes in the oven and hoping that the quantity will make up for them being liquid in the middle.

sealemon
2008-06-17, 08:58 AM
Agreement with the above comments about the editing and too many villains. Didn't they learn ANYTHING from the Batman sequels?

I'll go a step further: The Spectacular Spider-Man animated show did the Venom story SO much better: Brock was a long time friend of Parker's introduced early in the series, making his downfall to Venom so much more meaningful and tragic. Also, Venom isn't defeated by church bells (Although they do hurt him) but by Parker's will power...And they broke up the Venom story line in the same way they should have done Spidey 3 and 4

That's more or less how the movie should have been done. Obviously Brock wasn't introduced until the third movie, so why not go outside the box a little? Don't even bother with the Brock character. Simply have the symbiote, after being rejected by Parker, bond with what should have been the obvious choice...


Harry Osborne. It would have made perfect sense, IMO.




On the other hand, I actually thought dancing Parker was funny.

SnowballMan
2008-06-17, 09:37 AM
Did peter turn evil in the comics?

Long story short, no.

Short answer long : Originally, all it did was make him tired. And if you've ever been with out sleep for an extended period of time, you know how that makes you react. Basically, the suit took over when ever Peter went to sleep and made him web-swing all over the place. A "What If" issue indicated that the suit fed off of adrenalin. Something finally convinced Peter to get the suit checked (up to this point he thought it was just fancy alien clothing) which is when Reed Richards discovered it was a symbiote. Richards managed to get it off him with a sonic blaster he had lying around and it was contained until a contrived escape scene...er, something released it.

The symbiote managed to get back to Peter. Apparently the reason it went back to Peter, as opposed to taking over the next person it encountered, was that it had become attached to him. Sorry, bad pun, I mean emotionally attached. Spiderman reacted badly to the symbiote's attempt to join back up and tried heading to FF HQ. Since the symbiote made this nearly impossible, he opted for the nearest sonic device, a church tower. Vowing that he would rather the vibrations from the bells kill him then be forever attached to the symbiote, he promptly collapsed. The symbiote withdrew and Spiderman died.

No wait, having learned of heroism from its host, the symbiote came back and dragged Spiderman clear of the lethal range of the church bells (and I really want to know what the lethal range of a church bell is, and do I need a license to buy one). The last act of the symbiote is to give a final touching, well, touch, to Peter before it disintegrates.

This being the Marvel Universe, where nothing, not even Bucky, stays dead, what we saw wasn't the symbiote disintegrating, but falling through a crack. Only to fall on Eddie Brock, who was at the church contemplating suicide because his life had fallen apart, due mainly to Spiderman exposing him for a fraud (although the situation is different, the logic is just as convoluted as in the movie). Rejected emotional alien plus repressed (and inappropriately directed) anger apparently equals Venom.

The anger part of the suit was all Brock. The actual symbiote was just responding to being rejected and really just wanted to feel loved. For which I think Mr. Parker totally overreacted. What was wrong with the symbiote anyway. No need for web-shooters, no need to find a place to change. Heck, no need to buy clothes ever again! All he needed to do was find a way to communicate with the thing to establish that he did, in fact, need to sleep. (Well, the "What If" issue did say that there were more severe drawbacks to prolonged exposure, but then the "What If" stories ALWAYS go overboard.)

Also, in the original story, the suit didn't give him extra power. That idea came from the fact that Brock lifted weights while planning his revenge, so that he had his own strength combined with the spidey strength the symbiote copied. (Although I don't know how much more powerful you really are if you add the ability to lift 200 - 300 pounds to the ability to lift 10 tons.)

Hope that cleared things up for you.

Gundato
2008-06-17, 09:44 AM
Proportional strength. Let's say Peter can lift 100-pounds without the Spider-Abilities. So if Brock could lift two or three times that, he would be able to lift 20-30 tons in Venom mode.

See, that is why almost every single superhero has proportional strength. That way, the beefy guy is stronger.

Twin2
2008-06-17, 04:42 PM
Also, Sandman's backstory really, REALLY sucked.


I mean, okay, you see he has a sick daughter. Then you NEVER see here again. ever. So, is he fighting for her here? Trying to raise money? Because i never really see that fleshed out again.


Don't get me wrong; Sandman and a daughter can be done brilliantly; hell look at Spiderman: reign had a great heelface turn after he sees his daughter die before his eyes, but the movie just didn't do it well.

Personally I was hoping we'd get an ******* of a father/petty thief who gets what every 2 bit crook in the marvel universe could only dream of getting and go wild from there. Gives us a chance to really get behind spiderman instead of go spidey, but the guy has a daughter/crazy tentacles attached/best friends dad so don't go too hard.

krossbow
2008-06-17, 05:50 PM
Its kind of disturbing when you think about it, that the symbiote's motivation is almost exactly the same as a bitchy ex-girlfriend.



Either way, when they do the next movie, i hope they have a b villian and an A villian, kind of like how batman begins had. One who's pretty pathetic and doesn't really rank up there high on the threat meter (kind of like how harry was in the movie), and then a ultra high threat villian.


For example, have carnage be villian A. (heck, doc conners has part of the venom symbiote. And in the ultimate spiderman comic, Carnage is just a rampaging, independent monster accidentally made by doc conners experimenting with the venom symbiote, no bonding needed), and a Villian B.



I'll agree with the poster a few posts above me and say, that if anyone can pull off mysterio and make him enjoyable, it would be Bruce campbell.

DigoDragon
2008-06-25, 08:08 AM
They could of just did the Black Costume story and ended the movie with the symboite dripping onto Eddie.

That would have been a pretty decent ending and a good cliffhanger for launching a Spidey4.

Also, make Eddie bigger (both in size and jerk factor) like in the comics. I always thought of Eddie as the opposite of Peter and that kinda made Spidey/Venom encounters interesting. I didn't feel that rivary for this movie.

toddex
2008-06-25, 08:22 AM
Also, in the original story, the suit didn't give him extra power. That idea came from the fact that Brock lifted weights while planning his revenge, so that he had his own strength combined with the spidey strength the symbiote copied. (Although I don't know how much more powerful you really are if you add the ability to lift 200 - 300 pounds to the ability to lift 10 tons.)

Hope that cleared things up for you.

Yeah the what if made the symbiote really evil. If you wore it to long you got old fast. Peter ended up becoming like 80 or some ****.

BUT then there is the what if where THE PUNISHER gets the symbiote pretty bad ass. It makes him really hostile probably just amplifying his emotions or something. Tries to take over in the end the punisher ends up making a deal with it. If it lets him be in control all the time he'll use it to fight lots of battles. blah blah blah

Punisher flies off with awesome batman looking wings.

Arlion
2008-07-04, 08:55 PM
I would have used the sandman and harry as the villians in this movie,maybe another lesser villian.but i would have left the black suit story,so in the end eddie gets the suit in the church and he is left as the villian for the 4 one

konfeta
2008-07-05, 02:51 AM
Do everything possible to ensure that Maguire doesn't come back, should he have a change of heart.

Seriously, this trash of a miscast single-handily turned one of the most awesome Marvel heroes into a pathetic brat with a Keanu Reeves grade durability "I think I just got served" facial expression through-out the entire trilogy.

I know I am probably in the minority here, but when I watched the third movie it was difficult to swallow watching watching Spiderman acting, looking, and feeling like a punk while getting punked every 5 minutes, stat.

/endnerdrage