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View Full Version : 4rth edition Rules Q&A(by RAW) Thread



DMfromTheAbyss
2008-06-15, 12:17 PM
Anybody got questions on the 4rth edition rules? I figure we could use a thread specifically for the new edition to get all those stupid misunderstandings of the rules out of the way right off the bat. I figure we should apply all the standard Q&A rules.

If this would be better off being absorbed by the Q&A thread, any mods feel free to move it, Just thinking it might work to separate the rules by edition to avoid confusion.

To get us started some simple stuff that confused me about the whole new save/defence statistics.

Q1) Do bonuses to Fort Reflex and Will from magic items give a higher defence for said defences.. or just a bonus when making saves?

Q2) Do magic item bonuses from say ring of protection and a cloak of resistance stack?

Q3) What is the math involved in making a save against continuing damage (say from being on fire/poisoned it says save to end...) how does one figure out the save "DC"

Matthew
2008-06-15, 12:20 PM
This is a good idea (in my opinion), but is there any chance of marking it "[4e] Simple Q&A (By RAW) I", for the sake of consistancy? (if you don't know how, you just need to edit your post and change the title)

Godric
2008-06-15, 12:30 PM
1) Do bonuses that are for opportunity attacks (such as a fighter's wisdom modifier or the bonus from the Blade Opportunist feat) apply to attacks granted by the Combat Challenge class feature?

2) Why can't you push enemies into each other?

Zrinfael
2008-06-15, 12:34 PM
Q1) Do bonuses to Fort Reflex and Will from magic items give a higher defence for said defences.. or just a bonus when making saves?
Q2) Do magic item bonuses from say ring of protection and a cloak of resistance stack?
Q3) What is the math involved in making a save against continuing damage (say from being on fire/poisoned it says save to end...) how does one figure out the save "DC"
Saves no longer work that way, at the end of your combat turn, you are allowed one save per effect that you are under. To make the save you roll a d20, on 10+ you pass the save and the effect is gone, on 1-9, you fail and the effect stays. Normally there are no modifiers made to saving throws, there are some exceptions, that ring of protection for instance.
Fort, Will, and Ref are defense scores only now, they're only used in determining if something hits or not.

Rules regarding saving throws are on page 279 of the PHB, rules regarding the four defense stats are on page 275.

Joran
2008-06-15, 12:35 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that fort, will, and reflex are now "defenses" and not "saves". Saving throws are completely different:

In 279 of the PHB, it states, "When you're under a persistent effect or condition that can be ended by a save ("save ends"), you have a chance to escape the effect each round at the end of your turn. You do that by making a saving throw, which is a d20 roll unmodified by your level or ability modifiers."

So, extending this to your question:


Q1) Do bonuses to Fort Reflex and Will from magic items give a higher defence for said defences.. or just a bonus when making saves?

This sounds like defenses.


Q3) What is the math involved in making a save against continuing damage (say from being on fire/poisoned it says save to end...) how does one figure out the save "DC"


Same part of the PHB: "At the end of your turn you make a saving throw against each effect on you that a save can end. Roll a d20 with one of the following results:

Lower than 10: Failure
10 or higher: Success

Edit: Ninjaed ;)

Joran
2008-06-15, 12:41 PM
Do bonuses that are for opportunity attacks (such as a fighter's wisdom modifier or the bonus from the Blade Opportunist feat) apply to attacks granted by the Combat Challenge class feature?

Here's the response I got from customer service:


The attack granted by a Fighter's Combat Challenge is a basic melee attack but it is not an Opportunity Attack.


So, no. Also, since combat challenge is an immediate interrupt, you can only use it once per round. Opportunity attacks can be done once per turn.

Godric
2008-06-15, 01:08 PM
Wow, that makes combat superiority nowhere near as good as I thought it was. Only on one enemy once per entire round of combat?

Zrinfael
2008-06-15, 01:22 PM
2) Why can't you push enemies into each other?
This depends on the power you're using. By raw you may push enemies through each other's squares so long as you are able to continue pushing your target beyond the second enemy's square. Unless I am mistaken, it's not mentioned anywhere that there are special rules regarding force moving one enemy through another, so the standard rules apply. Force movement rules (page 285&286 of the PHB) indicate that force movement may occur over squares that could normally be walked by the target. Normal movement rules (page 283 of the PHB) indicate that your target may move through its allies squares so long as it does not end movement in a square occupied by said ally (Unless your target or it's ally is tiny or the ally is prone). Presuming you can continue to meet all the other prerequisites for forced movement it should be legal.

You may make one interrupt action per full round of combat (the end of your turn to the start of your next turn), that applies to your bonus attack you gain from a marked target when it shifts/makes an attack not on you. You may make one opportunity attack per combatant's turn, but any number per round. Example: Kobold A moves past you twice in the same turn, you can only use one opportunity attack on it, Kobold B moves past immediately after, you may make an opportunity attack against Kobold B. Kobold C uses a special ability allowing Kobold A to take another move action, it moves by you again, and again, you may make an attack of opportunity.

Joran
2008-06-15, 03:05 PM
Wow, that makes combat superiority nowhere near as good as I thought it was. Only on one enemy once per entire round of combat?

No, Combat Challenge is the once per entire round ability. An opportunity attack is a once per turn ability. Combat superiority only affects opportunity attacks. If you have a high wisdom modifier, and take blade opportunist, you'd have a fairly sizable bonus to your opportunity attacks.

This can lead to a fairly humorous confluence of events, where you've previously marked a ranged enemy that you're adjacent to. If they try to range attack one of your allies, you get an opportunity attack and then you can choose to use your combat challenge attack on them; two melee attacks during an enemy's turn, pretty good if you ask me.

P.S. Question regarding combat superiority: It states that "An enemy struck by your opportunity attack stops moving, if a move provoked the opportunity attack." Does this mean an adjacent enemy moves away from you, does he end up one square away or still adjacent to you?

Also, it says "struck". Does this mean "hit by" or "took damage"? A feat for heavy blade opportunitist allows you to sub an at-will power for the basic melee. Fighters have an at will ability that deals damage on a miss...

P.S.S. Something I just thought of. Take my situation from above, but the enemy is not marked. Can you mark him on the opportunity attack, which takes places before the attack, and then use the combat challenge (since the attack still hasn't occured), before the attack?

Pelfaid
2008-06-15, 03:34 PM
Take my situation from above, but the enemy is not marked. Can you mark him on the opportunity attack, which takes places before the attack, and then use the combat challenge (since the attack still hasn't occured), before the attack?
With the way combat challenge is phrased, I believe that if you on the opportunity attack you would be able to mark them, but with that it is determined by the timing of actions, namely does the OA go before the baddies attack or after, and that is not something I am familiar with.

Frost
2008-06-15, 03:51 PM
Cloud of Daggers:

It says are 1 square. But why doesn't it describe the area like every other area in the game? Is it a Burst 1? A Blast 1 that happens to be at range? Or is it really just one square?

UserClone
2008-06-15, 03:51 PM
It seems to me that "struck" means "hit," no matter the system with which you are working. That bit of obviousness out of the way, there are attacks that say you get a secondary attack if you hit with the first. That means if you hit, not if you deal damage on a miss.

Joran
2008-06-15, 04:23 PM
Cloud of Daggers:

It says are 1 square. But why doesn't it describe the area like every other area in the game? Is it a Burst 1? A Blast 1 that happens to be at range? Or is it really just one square?

Just one square. A burst 1 would be 9 squares of effect and fairly large. A blast 1 would be in an adjacent square.

Sir_Elderberry
2008-06-15, 04:44 PM
I want to make sure I have Wizard spell preparation worked out correctly, because it confused me when I first read it.

Essentially, I learn powers like everyone else, and get twice as many daily and utility powers KNOWN. However, each day, the number of actual powers I get is the same as everyone else, and I choose from my list. That is, my "Spells per day" is everyone else's "powers known"?

Zrinfael
2008-06-15, 05:02 PM
P.S. Question regarding combat superiority: It states that "An enemy struck by your opportunity attack stops moving, if a move provoked the opportunity attack." Does this mean an adjacent enemy moves away from you, does he end up one square away or still adjacent to you?
The opportunity attack occurs before whatever action was provoking it. In the case of movement and combat superiority, the target will stop just before it makes the move that provokes the attack. In your example, your target will remain adjacent to you.


P.S.S. Something I just thought of. Take my situation from above, but the enemy is not marked. Can you mark him on the opportunity attack, which takes places before the attack, and then use the combat challenge (since the attack still hasn't occured), before the attack?
Yes, you may use an attack of opportunity to mark a target using a ranged attack, then use the mark to gain an additional bonus attack. Seems kinda silly, but I guess that's what you get for being stupid enough to make a ranged attack with a fighter next to you.

Zrinfael
2008-06-15, 05:04 PM
I want to make sure I have Wizard spell preparation worked out correctly, because it confused me when I first read it.

Essentially, I learn powers like everyone else, and get twice as many daily and utility powers KNOWN. However, each day, the number of actual powers I get is the same as everyone else, and I choose from my list. That is, my "Spells per day" is everyone else's "powers known"?
This is correct.

RebelRogue
2008-06-15, 05:09 PM
With the way combat challenge is phrased, I believe that if you on the opportunity attack you would be able to mark them
I agree with this: "Every time you attack an enemy, whether the attack hits or misses, you can choose to mark the target."

wodan46
2008-06-15, 05:12 PM
Q: Commander's Strike's Strike states that it is a melee power, but doesn't involve you doing anything other than yelling at a teammate to hit something. Do you have to be within melee range of the enemy you are targeting with the power to have it work?

Zrinfael
2008-06-15, 05:23 PM
Q: Commander's Strike's Strike states that it is a melee power, but doesn't involve you doing anything other than yelling at a teammate to hit something. Do you have to be within melee range of the enemy you are targeting with the power to have it work?
Yep, you have to be wielding a melee weapon and be in range of your target with that weapon. That said, you need not be in melee range of the ally you're having attack.

TheEmerged
2008-06-15, 07:10 PM
I want to make sure I have Wizard spell preparation worked out correctly, because it confused me when I first read it.

Essentially, I learn powers like everyone else, and get twice as many daily and utility powers KNOWN. However, each day, the number of actual powers I get is the same as everyone else, and I choose from my list. That is, my "Spells per day" is everyone else's "powers known"?

Yeah. I've found it helps to call what you're calling "powers known" as "powers in spellbook". The memorization rules are still in effect, after all (you have to choose at the beginning of the day which power you're going to use in each slot) so some people get confused with the "known" terminology (see for reference the OOTS cartoon about "level").

Also, keep in mind that wizards have the same restrictions with regards to power level as all the other classes. Just because you have 2 5th level daily powers in your spellbook doesn't mean you can memorize both of them. You are still restricted to a single 1st level daily and a single 5th level daily, you just have some choice over which you memorize that day. There's a chart in the DMG that makes this much clearer but my books aren't handy right now.

Charity
2008-06-15, 07:26 PM
If this thread is going to stick around it needs the same rigor applied to it as the stickied thread for 3e.

Namely each question has a unique and sequential number attached so they might be answered without confusion.
Each answer bearing that same number.



Q1. Do bonuses to Fort Reflex and Will from magic items give a higher defence for said defences.. or just a bonus when making saves?

Q2. Do magic item bonuses from say ring of protection and a cloak of resistance stack?

Q3 What is the math involved in making a save against continuing damage (say from being on fire/poisoned it says save to end...) how does one figure out the save "DC"


A1. Saves are made against ongoing effects, P279 PHB.
Defences are entirely different they are static numbers working (and including) in the same way as AC in 3e. PHB 269 onwards

A2 Ring of protection works in an entirely different way, it adds to saving throws (see above) cloaks add to static defences (though not AC)

A3 Saving throws are always based off the premiss 1-9 is a failure and 11-20 is a success, many other factors might affect these basic numbers (wizards can give you a penalty, a feat might give you a bonus etc.)


Q4. Do bonuses that are for opportunity attacks (such as a fighter's wisdom modifier or the bonus from the Blade Opportunist feat) apply to attacks granted by the Combat Challenge class feature?

Q5 Why can't you push enemies into each other?

A4 The FAQ has rules that Combat Challenge is Not an Opportunity attack, so no they do not stack.
Also note that like bonuses (ie feat bonuses) do not stack so you couldnt benifit from the +2 Initiative from Quick draw, and the +4 from improved intitiative.

A5 is not in the scope of a RAW question, RAW says you cannot, but you already know this.

Clear Path: Forced movement canít move a target into a space it couldnít enter by walking. The target canít be forced into an obstacle or made to squeeze into a space.

Zrinfael
2008-06-15, 08:53 PM
A5 is not in the scope of a RAW question, RAW says you cannot, but you already know this.
Clear Path: Forced movement canít move a target into a space it couldnít enter by walking. The target canít be forced into an obstacle or made to squeeze into a space.
Moving Through Occupied Squares
Ally: You can move through a square occupied by an allyAs per RAW, you may move through an ally's square via walking, thus it does not invalidate the Clear Path requirement of forced movement.

Crow
2008-06-15, 08:59 PM
Q6: If I have taken the multiclass feats for one class, can I paragon multiclass into a third class?

erikun
2008-06-15, 09:12 PM
Q6: If I have taken the multiclass feats for one class, can I paragon multiclass into a third class?
A6: No, you cannot.

In order to Paragon Multiclass, you need to have the Novice Power, Acolyte Power, and Adept Power feats for that class. All three of those feats require you to have the Class-Specific Feat for that class, and you can only have one Class-Specific Feat at a time.

<edit>
PHB p. 209 for Paragon Multiclassing, Power-Swap Feats (Novice Power, Acolyte Power, Adept Power)
PHB p. 208 for Class-Specific Feats

Roland St. Jude
2008-06-15, 11:05 PM
Good idea. I've made an offical sticky version. I'm going to lock this one to avoid confusion.