PDA

View Full Version : Schlock Mercenary vs. Warhammer 40K



GoC
2008-06-18, 10:00 PM
The competitors:
Schlock Mercenary (http://schlockmercenary.com/) and Warhammer 40K (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000) are both sci-fi universes with galaxy spanning empires and a pretty good sense of scale.
Schlock Mercenary has body armor capable of withstanding nukes, thousands of warships kilometers in length, "fabbers" that can build equipment from raw materials in hours and unlimited range teleportation technology.
Warhammer 40K has near infinite numbers on all 7 different sides, even bigger warships, chainsaw wielding dudes who can rip tanks in half and psycher(s) who can end millions of lives with a hand-wave.
The location:
A portal between the two universes opens up and hostilities between the two universes begin. Said portal is 5 light-years in diameter and opens near a fringe world in both universes.
The time:
Whatever is the most recent canon in both universes.
The conditions:
The inhabitants of the Schlock Mercenary universe are invisible to the warp (like the Tau) and thus will not be possessed, dominated or corrupted by nefarious interplanar entities.
Petey is practicing a non-interference policy in his quest to become a better god. He will defend himself (and Tagon's Toughs:smallwink:) if attacked but will otherwise remain neutral.

Have fun, I'm off to continue my vacation!:smallcool:

Emperor Tippy
2008-06-18, 10:12 PM
Schlock Mercenary wins inside a day. They have terrapoting and none of the 40K groups have Terraport Interdiction Fields.

Even without that they still win. A battleplate on its own could probably take out all of Battlefleet Sol.

tyckspoon
2008-06-18, 10:22 PM
I agree with Tippy with the exception of locations where a sufficiently powerful psyker is stationed. Schlock has insurmountable advantages in mobility, troop equipment, and supply lines and materiel manufacturing. In addition they have, to the best of my knowledge, at least parity with 40k in almost every other important field. The exception is psychic/magic activities, which do not exist in Schlock on anywhere near the same scale if at all. The Fleet Overmind (otherwise known as Petey and/or God) can probably understand psychic power and may be able to devise some way to mitigate it, but the Schlock universe is otherwise not equipped to directly fight psykers. So 40k will probably be able to maintain some strongpoints at places where there is a psyker powerful enough to affect the course of a fleet battle.

Dervag
2008-06-18, 10:23 PM
This is actually a worthy opponent for the Warhammer universe. Good job.

OK...

If Petey did not stay out this would be a walkover for the Schlockverse. Petey is the 'head' of a collective consciousness created from the AIs of hundreds, if not thousands, of very powerful robot battleships. He controls a respectable fraction of the galaxy's manufacturing resources and has really good control over the setting's unlimited-range teleportation tech.

In other words, he's got a large fraction of the Imperium's resources and he is much better at using those resources than they are. And he can coordinate a campaign over vast interstellar distances in real time.

Petey is also highly likely to try to reform the Imperium rather than destroy it, and to attempt to adapt Schlockverse regenerator nanites to the task of healing the God-Emperor of Man. He would not like the forces of Chaos, the Tyranids, or the Necrons, and is sufficiently powerful to make that dislike known.
______________________________

Without Petey, the Schlockers have a bit of a problem, because the Schlock galaxy is not at all unified. Warhammer 40k technology is strong enough that they're a credible match in direct ground combat. However, the Schlockers have an enormous edge in ship to ship combat because they've refined teleportation to a supreme art over the past few years.

Given the tendencies of the Warhammer universe, the most probably outcome is a mass invasion by the Imperium against the filthy xenos of the Schlock galaxy. Assuming that it is in fact possible to use the Warp for transportation inside the Schlock galaxy, the Imperium will be faced with some big problems:

-their ship speed sucks compared to the locals.
-they can't pin down local forces to annihilate them.
-the locals have a nasty habit of doing things like teleporting nuclear missiles inside the enemy's hull.

When the locals fight each other they use "Teraport Denial" systems to avoid letting this happen to them, but unless the Imperium figures out the teraport they won't be able to duplicate this. And it's doubtful they can; teraport technology does not resemble anything in the Imperium universe and the Imperials have pretty much lost the ability to reverse engineer technology.
_____________________________

Assuming the Schlockers react by anything that remotely resembles "unite against a common foe", the Warhammer galaxy cannot win on the offensive. However, no power in the Schlockverse is large enough to conquer an entire galaxy, so this will probably wind up as a stalemate.


Schlock Mercenary wins inside a day. They have terrapoting and none of the 40K groups have Terraport Interdiction Fields.It will definitely take more than a day.

It takes more than a day to amass a force capable of invading a galaxy, identify the critical nodes of that galaxy's resistance, and target them. I don't care how good your weapons are. Remember the importance of time and space. Even to a teleporter, those factors have a lot to do with military success.

If the entire Schlock Mercenary galaxy were fighting as one, this campaign would indeed be over very fast, though not within a day. Since they're not, I expect this to be extended. Nobody in the Schlockverse will want to get too deeply embroiled in the craziness that is Warhammer.


Even without that they still win. A battleplate on its own could probably take out all of Battlefleet Sol.Hard to say. I mean, we've never seen battleplates in a fleet battle. Yes, they're very powerful, but it's hard to quantify their power.

Emperor Tippy
2008-06-18, 10:44 PM
This is actually a worthy opponent for the Warhammer universe. Good job.

OK...

If Petey did not stay out this would be a walkover for the Schlockverse. Petey is the 'head' of a collective consciousness created from the AIs of hundreds, if not thousands, of very powerful robot battleships. He controls a respectable fraction of the galaxy's manufacturing resources and has really good control over the setting's unlimited-range teleportation tech.

In other words, he's got a large fraction of the Imperium's resources and he is much better at using those resources than they are. And he can coordinate a campaign over vast interstellar distances in real time.

Petey is also highly likely to try to reform the Imperium rather than destroy it, and to attempt to adapt Schlockverse regenerator nanites to the task of healing the God-Emperor of Man. He would not like the forces of Chaos, the Tyranids, or the Necrons, and is sufficiently powerful to make that dislike known.
______________________________
With Petey it would take maybe 5 minutes. Petey terraports all of the officers from the 40K ships and Mind Rip's them. Now that he knows the location of the respective forces bases and planets he just terraports antimatter warheads capable of cracking the planets crust into the center of each enemy planet. He wins.


Without Petey, the Schlockers have a bit of a problem, because the Schlock galaxy is not at all unified. Warhammer 40k technology is strong enough that they're a credible match in direct ground combat. However, the Schlockers have an enormous edge in ship to ship combat because they've refined teleportation to a supreme art over the past few years.
The Schlockverse doesn't have to be unified. It's ships are far superior to the 40K ones in every way.


Given the tendencies of the Warhammer universe, the most probably outcome is a mass invasion by the Imperium against the filthy xenos of the Schlock galaxy. Assuming that it is in fact possible to use the Warp for transportation inside the Schlock galaxy, the Imperium will be faced with some big problems:

-their ship speed sucks compared to the locals.
-they can't pin down local forces to annihilate them.
-the locals have a nasty habit of doing things like teleporting nuclear missiles inside the enemy's hull.
And as soon as they appear they get terraported to death, either by being terraported into a star or black hole or by having nukes terraported into their hulls.


Assuming the Schlockers react by anything that remotely resembles "unite against a common foe", the Warhammer galaxy cannot win on the offensive. However, no power in the Schlockverse is large enough to conquer an entire galaxy, so this will probably wind up as a stalemate.
Who said anything about conquer?


It will definitely take more than a day.

It takes more than a day to amass a force capable of invading a galaxy, identify the critical nodes of that galaxy's resistance, and target them. I don't care how good your weapons are. Remember the importance of time and space. Even to a teleporter, those factors have a lot to do with military success.[/quote]
Most of that is easily solved. Just terraport some forces over to an enemy vessel, capture the officers, and Mind Rip them for the information. Once you have targets the battle is over as all the Schlock forces have to do is terraport a big bomb into the center of each enemy world.


Hard to say. I mean, we've never seen battleplates in a fleet battle. Yes, they're very powerful, but it's hard to quantify their power.

Yes we have, back in some of the fleetmind stuff iirc.

konfeta
2008-06-19, 03:38 AM
I wouldn't go as far as saying that a Battleplate can take on Sol's defenses, those things are anything but invincible and Sol defense platforms and fleets have plenty of firepower.

Then again, terrapedos are a little on the cheap side when you don't have an interdiction field. While I don't think a Battleplate would stand a chance if it went in pre-Andreyasan's developments, Terraport swings the situation completely in reverse - the Battleplate could just nuke Sol's defenses well outside of their range.

If you want this to be a fair match up, you need to poise up pre-terraport Schlockoverse with a number of ring gates popping up all over the place. Mobility is WH40k's weak point, if you send in a force that rivals and, in many places, outshines their technology with a lulzteleport mobility they simply win, no contest.

Schlockoverse has technological superiority if you only count the Imperium, but I doubt it has the firepower the Imperium can muster. It will basically be brute force against technological superiority, and the Imperium has fought that kind of war many times with not a half-bad track record.

So yeah, Terraport = Schlockoverse wins. No terraport, this gets interesting.

Quezovercoatl
2008-06-19, 05:50 AM
In terms of fire power we have the statement that a Battleplate has enough power to “Tear Europa into bite size chunks and feed it to Jupiter bit by bit” (unsure of exact wording). We have also seen watermelon sized bombs with a yield of 3 terratonns, now remember that Battleplates have missiles that are over 100 meters long.

konfeta
2008-06-19, 06:01 AM
The Battleplate's firepower was never question. It's durability was. The Imperial Navy has powerful ships, a good portion of which carry weaponry that counts as planet killers. They also have thingmajik defensive shields such as Void Shields.

While a Battleplate can probably down quite a few capital ships before it goes down, the "before it goes down" part will probably last as long as it takes for the Imperial barrage to reach it.

For example, one of the weapons available to a large Imperial Ship is a Nova Cannon - essentially a mass driver, accelerating a large projectile to near the speed of light. While not as elegant as the anti-matter Schlockoverse weapons, it gets the same job done.

Emperor Tippy
2008-06-19, 06:05 AM
The Battleplate's firepower was never question. It's durability was. The Imperial Navy has powerful ships, a good portion of which carry weaponry that counts as planet killers. They also have thingmajik defensive shields such as Void Shields.

While a Battleplate can probably down quite a few capital ships before it goes down, the "before it goes down" part will probably last as long as it takes for the Imperial barrage to reach it.

Except Battleplates can stand up to such things as house sized objects crashing into them at .99c, its what they were originally made for. And take hits from ships of a similar power level.

konfeta
2008-06-19, 06:10 AM
When you say "stand up" you mean not get damaged, or you mean get a huge hole in it and still keep going?

*Trying to find that quote, but I am pretty sure Nova Cannons fire projectiles the size of modern day skyscrapers. I could be wrong, in fact, there is a good chance that I am wrong, but I'll try to find that quote.


**Meh, can't find it. You will have to ask someone with access to rulebooks or BL novels that have those quotes.

I am by no means underestimating a Battleplate's power, but you are way underestimating the firepower that a Battlefleet can output. Maybe the Battleplate outranges a Battlefleet without the terraport tech, but if it doesn't, I don't think it will survive for long.

Unless it is very good at dodging? It's been a while since I've read all of Schlock's archives.

factotum
2008-06-19, 06:43 AM
If the best weapon the Imperium has is essentially a very large mass driver then the Battleplate easily wins--don't forget that they have enormously powerful gravity generation technology and would thus be able to deflect or even possibly stop dead anything with mass. In addition, that same gravity generation technology would get more effective against a larger ship, because the forces pulling it apart would be that much greater!

konfeta
2008-06-19, 06:47 AM
Gravy guns are short range weapons. The last thing you want to do is close in on an Imperial Fleet, the Lance Batteries will carve up a Battleplate in seconds. The thing will do more damage by exploding after an anni plant is breached than with it's actual weapons that way.

And I doubt that a single Battleplate is good enough to stop 6-7 very large projectiles coming at it close to the speed of light in addition to all the other crap the Battlefleet will chuck at it.

Granted, nothing is stopping them from sending all the Battleplates in, but if that's the case then WH40k is allowed to send in their most powerful psykers for a little battlestation sized mind control.

*This thread needs more defined rules to limit "IWIN" buttons for both sides, as well as some actual descriptions of what various WH40k weapons are capable off and what is a Battleplate capable off.

I am still in favor of removing Terraport out of the equation. That's like giving the Imperium the C'Tan, the Chaos Gods, and the Emperor working together like buddies to help it out.

***Hmm, I performed a penultimate fail. This is the WH40k Universe, not Imperium against Schlockoverse. That's too many variables to consider now, my head hurts just even thinking about them all. Like, Schlock tech is good, but do they have anything to stand up to the C'Tan or the Tyranids?

Destro_Yersul
2008-06-19, 02:02 PM
Or, for that matter, Chaos. Or Eldar.

Against just the imperium Shlockiverse will win, maybe take them a while because they don't have Petey to coordinate and the Imperium is a really big place, but they'll win. Against the Entirety of 40k?

Well, let's see. We've got soul devouring Star Gods, numberless hordes of ravening aliens, Daemons who can destroy a planet by looking at it funny, MORE numberless hordes of ravening aliens, an ancient race consisting entirely of psychics who give new definition to the phrase 'mind-rip', undying metal monstrosities with weapons that kill you by flaying your atoms apart and so on and so forth.

Tough call.

puppyavenger
2008-06-19, 03:35 PM
40k wins if you get 'can make a realistic claim at being God" weights in.
for example, if the Schlock Mercenary people did something stupid and nuked mars.

Kane
2008-06-19, 05:59 PM
Schlock would win. Doesn't matter who you like, there's the facts that A, Schlock spacecraft are significant improvements over anything the Imperium/40K verse has. And, even without orbital superiority, the ground forces they have are almost-as-good, if not better than the 40K stuff. (Though seeing a dreadnought tear into Schlock-verse tanks would be cool...)

Further, even if it was a tie, Schlock has enough science, tells a good enough story and is HILARIOUS while doing so that it gets my vote in any event.

Hectonkhyres
2008-06-20, 12:32 AM
First off, nothing says that one side can steal crap from the other. The Imperium or the Harlequins or one of the Tzeentch should be able to, oh I don't know, send an agent over to the other side to download some blueprints off the internet. Or steal an engineer, if that would work better. Terraporting and terraport denial are supposed to be ridiculously easy to set up once you know the basics.

Second, from what I see, we aren't talking about the just the Imperium. Imagine if the Tyrranids decide to shove one of their gawdawefully big invasion fleets through the rift. It doesn't matter how many you kill, more get spat out of every world they infect with their cancer. The necrons would follow and seed themselves into any available dead worlds to sleep until they are done modernizing... not to mention what would happen if one of their masters came through the gate.

Tzeentch would probably be smart though. He would steal all the technology from the Schlockiverse and then seal the gate however possible. Why bother with a universe that can't support your existence. The warp blind don't feed gods.

MeklorIlavator
2008-06-20, 01:32 AM
The teraport/teraport denial systems are simple to set up once you have the necessary support tech, which 40k doesn't have. A good example would be something like the AK-47 assault rifle: its easy to mass produce and use, but try setting up a factory for them using only civil war era tech: its not easy. Plus, it looks like the Imperium is several steps from being able to make a teraport/teraport denial system. In fact, they probably would have to make the systems that would allow them to make the systems that would make the teraport/teraport denial system. To carry the analogy further: make a modern computer(using transistors and the like) starting out with civil war era tech. Of course, the Imperium isn't exactly open for innovation. true, they do innovate and invent, but they do so solwly, probably too slowly when faced the Schlockverse.

And chaos doesn't seem to have a big manufacturing sector, so I doubt that they'd be stealing plans or anything, so that leaves the Eldar. To be fair, the Eldar are in much better shape than the Imperium, with much higher tech levels and probably better understandings of gravity, so they would be more able to use this.Of course, if its close enough to the Tau that they can get some people through, I think it might get really interesting. Remember that they are probably the most innovative of the bunch, and would jump at the chance of a better method of interstellar travel.

Also, as the portals are on the fringe of both areas, its probable that the first side to explore the other would be Shlockverse, as transportation times aren't really and issue for them. What do you think will happen when they find out whats on the other side? They will fortify the area around that portal like no tomorrow.

And the tyranids would simply have multiple antimatter warheads explode inside their vessels, plus even if they do exhaust the warheads of the ships near the exit, they would be hounded to death simply by the fact that Schlock verse vessels can just launch teraport missiles from beyond range. And it doesn't matter how many you can spit our of an infected world if you never get to a world to infect. Plus, you can damage a hive fleet enough that it looses: the Imperium did it at the Battle of Macragge.

Finally, As neither side is united, I think that what whould really end up happening is this:
1. Petey discovers Portal, sets up watch drones.
2. Other Schlock Peoples discover portal, begin exploring other side.
3. WH 40k discover portal, start moving towards it.
4. Schlockverse realizes what a hell-hole the other side is, begins fortifying their side of portal.
5. WH 40k arrives at portal sometime later.
6. This step depends on who in the 40kverse arrives.
6a. Imperium. They are hostile, especially upon realizing prevalence of AI's/Aliens. Introduced to concept of teraport missiles. This is not a battlefleet, so while it inflict losses, the Schlockveres carries the day.
6b. Da Orks. Hostile, assume same as above.
6c. Eldar. Not initially hostile, especially upon realizing the newcomers have small warp presences. Possible Exchange of pleasantries.
6d. Tau. Not initially hostile. Willing to trade. Probably won't talk about internal policies. Will want the info on treaport.
6e. Tyranids. These guys will probably smash through the blocking force unless it is very big, but will be defeated once the rest of the Shlockveres learns what happens to the first world it comes into contact with. High chance of Petey getting involved.
6f. Necrons. This is really a toss up. I don't know enough about them to guess, but I bet hostilities would commence, and they would, for once, find themselves on a somewhat equal footing with their enemies.
6g. Chaos. Hostilities. Consider similar to Imperium in terms of damage.

This of course assumes that everyone acts according to their nature. If everyone is hostile initally, then Eldar and Tau would be moved to have a similar reaction as the Imperium. The main Problem for the 40k verse isn't numbers, its getting those numbers to the portal, as there really isn'y any reason for them to send battlefleets there from the begining, and most would be unable to do so. on the other hand, thanks to the Teraport, Schlockverse can get units there first and can get more units there faster then 40k, so I think they have this one in the bag.

Quezovercoatl
2008-06-20, 02:13 AM
Gravy guns are short range weapons. The last thing you want to do is close in on an Imperial Fleet, the Lance Batteries will carve up a Battleplate in seconds. The thing will do more damage by exploding after an anni plant is breached than with it's actual weapons that way.

IoM ships have firepower in the giga to terraton ranges, I have seen calcs on the Post Dated Check Loan that put its shields in the exaton range so you would need millions of Imperial ships to threaten it. U.N.S. battleplates are much bigger that the Post Dated Check Loan.
Even limiting Terraports to transport and not attack WH40K will have to pull out its high level god beings to not be brutally crushed.

warty goblin
2008-06-20, 02:37 AM
Due to the mobility of a battleplate thanks to the teraport and the extreme range granted by terapedoes, the actual firepower of a WH40K battleship is completely and utterly irrelevant. The battleplate has absolutely no reason to engage a WH40K ship in close combat after they try it once. When such an enemy is spotted, they will simply teraport to a safe distance then drop a couple dozen missiles into the thing from a light minute or so away.

Quezovercoatl
2008-06-20, 06:21 AM
Due to the mobility of a battleplate thanks to the teraport and the extreme range granted by terapedoes, the actual firepower of a WH40K battleship is completely and utterly irrelevant. The battleplate has absolutely no reason to engage a WH40K ship in close combat after they try it once. When such an enemy is spotted, they will simply teraport to a safe distance then drop a couple dozen missiles into the thing from a light minute or so away.

I am well aware of that, I was just pointing out that even if the use of terraports was limited to intersystem travel then a battle plate would so massively outclass any ship that WH40K could field that to even begin to threaten one in open combat you would need to start with “several Blackstone Fortresses” and build on from there.

BrainFreeze
2008-06-20, 11:38 AM
In the end if Schlock Mercenary wins they still lose, someone will stumble across and wake the Void Dragon on accident then everyone else will die.

More targets are always a good thing for the C-Tan given an invasion by another universe they will not go hungry for a long time.

That and I can picture someone trying to mind rape Abaddon and either immediatly going crazy or needing a bath right afterward.

Blackfang108
2008-06-20, 01:03 PM
Schlock within a week.

Less if Tagon decides to grab the Orbital Lance from Sgt Schlock's Homeworld.

Although I give Corporal Pi credit. He'll probably destroy the entire Warhammer 40k universe. In an accident.

Krrth
2008-06-20, 01:09 PM
sigh. I'll try again, as lag ate the other three posts.
If the C-Tan invade, they have to deal with Petey. They lose. Mid ripping Abaddon....I'd almost have to say Schlock's creators could do it and survive. After all, they replaced there own brains with organic computers to hold an eternities worth of memories....

Dervag
2008-06-20, 01:30 PM
With Petey it would take maybe 5 minutes. Petey terraports all of the officers from the 40K ships and Mind Rip's them. Now that he knows the location of the respective forces bases and planets he just terraports antimatter warheads capable of cracking the planets crust into the center of each enemy planet. He wins.He has to find the officers, yes? He has to find absolute coordinates of facilities- stuff that senior officers delegate to the astropaths. He may not even be able to use the astropaths' knowledge because they only know how to find thing via the Warp. He has to find officials who know the location of everything important in the Imperium; remember how big the Imperial bureaucracy is and how disorganized it is?

This kind of thing cannot be done in five minutes. It's too big. it's too complicated. Can it be done? Hell, yes. But not in five minutes. Even with all Petey's advantages in coordination, movement, and firepower, it will take him months or years. Remember how long it's taken him to wear down the Ob'enn. Granted, the Ob'enn have TAD technology, but one technology, however powerful, can't change the time scale required to plan and execute a campaign that radically.


Most of that is easily solved. Just terraport some forces over to an enemy vessel, capture the officers, and Mind Rip them for the information. Once you have targets the battle is over as all the Schlock forces have to do is terraport a big bomb into the center of each enemy world.Do the officers know where 'targets' are? Remember that the Imperium navigates interstellar space by way of the extradimensional Warp, using the Astronomicon as a guide beacon. That won't provide you with useful information about which star in the sky is the one you need to bomb.


Yes we have, back in some of the fleetmind stuff iirc.Not what I meant. They were in the battle, but we didn't see them fighting or get a good feel for their quality relative to other Schlocker warships, let alone to Imperium warships.


First off, nothing says that one side can steal crap from the other. The Imperium or the Harlequins or one of the Tzeentch should be able to, oh I don't know, send an agent over to the other side to download some blueprints off the internet.The Harlequins or Tzeentch, sure. The Imperium, I doubt it. They are bad at developing new technology or reverse-engineering xenotech. I mean, they've had plenty of time to get a look at Tau tech, which is better than the Imperial baseline in a number of ways but not so much better it works on alien principles (as does, say, Necron tech). And yet they've had no luck in duplicating it.

puppyavenger
2008-06-20, 02:47 PM
If the C-Tan invade, they have to deal with Petey. They lose.

depends on how powerful a god Petey is, well not really but still..
The Eldar had a pantheon of gods. Sleanesh killed them when he was born. The stronger 3 of Sleanesh's Peers, along with a race of super-phsykers with a ability to arrive at a destination a week before they left, the ability to create entire new races, a race of fungal super-warriors, and a mass-produced super-phsykers. could oly force them into a coma

Hectonkhyres
2008-06-20, 05:42 PM
The Harlequins or Tzeentch, sure. The Imperium, I doubt it. They are bad at developing new technology or reverse-engineering xenotech. I mean, they've had plenty of time to get a look at Tau tech, which is better than the Imperial baseline in a number of ways but not so much better it works on alien principles (as does, say, Necron tech). And yet they've had no luck in duplicating it.
The Imperium is largely inept by choice. Dogma teaches them that the crap toted around by outsiders is dangerous to be around much less use. Look at what happens when some dumbass picks up a chaos-tainted weapon. They have reason for their policy... however stupid it becomes when taken to extremes. I wouldn't quite rule out the Adeptus Mechanus yet.... if given the assurance that nothing they are doing is heresy by their superiors.

The Emperor, if he can pull two thoughts together while rotting in his goddamn golden throne, might want to embrace Petey weeping after all the crap he has seen over the last few thousand years.

Also, I'm placing five bucks on at least one of the smarter factions actually hiring every mercenary crew in the Schlockiverse, buying worlds, and whatnot.

Eit: Also, is there any possibility that the various warp powers in existence might be able to simulate an anti-terraport field? I just can't see a battleplate popping straight into the eye of terror or into some godaweful warpshadow.

puppyavenger
2008-06-20, 06:10 PM
Eit: Also, is there any possibility that the various warp powers in existence might be able to simulate an anti-terraport field? I just can't see a battleplate popping straight into the eye of terror or into some godaweful warpshadow.

well, khorne doesn't like "high tech sorcery' so he might be able to put p a shield (not knowing how it works doesn't matter when your an immortal omnipresent being created by humanities subconscious). and Tzeetch would be corrupting the first ship that came out of he portal anyway.

Hectonkhyres
2008-06-20, 06:34 PM
well, khorne doesn't like "high tech sorcery' so he might be able to put p a shield (not knowing how it works doesn't matter when your an immortal omnipresent being created by humanities subconscious). and Tzeetch would be corrupting the first ship that came out of he portal anyway.
And I don't care how warp blind you are. When you travel into the very lap of the Chaos Gods, the place where reality and the warp are synonymous, any Schlockiverse human is going to be corrupted along with any AI short of Petey... who is bound to lose a few nodes and generally feel like he needs to convince a box of sexually molested puppies to set themselves on fire.

Also, note that the annie-bomb has not been made that can kill a C'tan. Those things would probably survive the core explosion the Schlockiverse had to deal with a while back. Just pray those things can't go through the portal between universes.

Dervag
2008-06-20, 07:43 PM
The Imperium is largely inept by choice. Dogma teaches them that the crap toted around by outsiders is dangerous to be around much less use. Look at what happens when some dumbass picks up a chaos-tainted weapon. They have reason for their policy... however stupid it becomes when taken to extremes. I wouldn't quite rule out the Adeptus Mechanus yet.... if given the assurance that nothing they are doing is heresy by their superiors.I don't predict that this will happen, you see. The problem is that the Imperium takes longer to figure out that it's been bitten than any major military power in the Schlockverse will take to bite its head off. By the time the Adeptus Mechanus could conceivably get a dispensation to work out a defense against teraport technology and reverse engineer it to understand how it is made... it will be too late.

At which point Petey swoops in to save the God-Emperor. He has a history of taking an interest in the well-being of foreign galaxies occupied by fierce and powerful alien entities.


Eit: Also, is there any possibility that the various warp powers in existence might be able to simulate an anti-terraport field? I just can't see a battleplate popping straight into the eye of terror or into some godaweful warpshadow.Hrm. Quite likely, I think, now that you mention it.


And I don't care how warp blind you are. When you travel into the very lap of the Chaos Gods, the place where reality and the warp are synonymous, any Schlockiverse human is going to be corrupted along with any AI short of Petey... who is bound to lose a few nodes and generally feel like he needs to convince a box of sexually molested puppies to set themselves on fire.I cite the precedent of Gunner Ferik Jurgen, sidekick of Commissar Ciaphas Cain.

Hectonkhyres
2008-06-20, 11:33 PM
At which point Petey swoops in to save the God-Emperor. He has a history of taking an interest in the well-being of foreign galaxies occupied by fierce and powerful alien entities.
Which I would argue is a double win for both the Imperium and Petey.


I cite the precedent of Gunner Ferik Jurgen, sidekick of Commissar Ciaphas Cain.
I would argue that said protection is not perfectly reliable... and, in this case, it needs to be. Give me a ship of a thousand psychic nulls and thinking machines and a chaos god willing to invest a truly obscene amount of power and effort into turning a couple well placed bastards to the cause of chaos.

Also, I am hesitant to consider canon anything that can be described as 'Blackadder in Space'. I would also mention that converting Ferik Jurgen is much the same as converting a piece of cardboard. The hardest part is getting it to listen to you.

Damn entertaining series judging by the two stories I have read.
Must... ravage... borders... and... barnesandnoble...

chiasaur11
2008-06-21, 12:27 AM
Which I would argue is a double win for both the Imperium and Petey.


I would argue that said protection is not perfectly reliable... and, in this case, it needs to be. Give me a ship of a thousand psychic nulls and thinking machines and a chaos god willing to invest a truly obscene amount of power and effort into turning a couple well placed bastards to the cause of chaos.

Also, I am hesitant to consider canon anything that can be described as 'Blackadder in Space'. I would also mention that converting Ferik Jurgen is much the same as converting a piece of cardboard. The hardest part is getting it to listen to you.

Damn entertaining series judging by the two stories I have read.
Must... ravage... borders... and... barnesandnoble...

Ciaphas Cain isn't Blackadder in space.
It's Blackadder meets Flashman... IN GRIMDARK FUTURE SPACE.
And therefore, the ONLY thing in canon.

Deadmeat.GW
2008-06-21, 02:21 AM
I would give it to the Schlock but they will be pretty much bled dry by the end of it and that is just because the 40K universe is soo unlikely to work together it is funny.

If they worked together...lets say the Schlock guys are going to be in for a VERY rude awakening.
Necron/Eldar teleportation controll, Tau tech, Chaos disruptions of long range communications, teleportation and such, abilities to appear anywhere if you feel like it (Harlequins, whom are able to go beyond the webway in some fashion, Demons, Necrons,...) without use of technology that can be disrupted by ECM..., Psykers of all kinds and stripes which can do things like predict with near perfect skill anything you are going to do, ...
The combined might of 40K as a unified force is ridiculous.

Don't forget void shields stop teleportation technologies of almost all types in most cases.

The IoM does have teleportation technology which allows them to go a lot further then just jumping from one planet to a battleship out on the edge of the solar system ... if there was not the chance that the warp creatures interfere (and go nom-nom...).
They jump relatively short distances because over those distances they can make sure they have enough raw power to not suffer those kind of problems.
On the top of this, not all teleportation tech is warp based either yet can be affected.
It is why the Necrons have to use teleportation gates for longer distances otherwise they might end up somewhere rather warpy.
And they have tech which is a lot more advanced then most for this stuff.
The warp is a very funny beast, the creatures in it can affect the real world and less connected you are to said real world the more at risk you are...

konfeta
2008-06-21, 03:32 AM
exaton range

For real? I really need to reread the thing.

Well, then, the things that Schlockoverse will need to concern itself the most with are the C'Tan and Warp-based stuff. Seeing as both like to ignore the physical laws of the universe.

puppyavenger
2008-06-21, 12:14 PM
For real? I really need to reread the thing.

Well, then, the things that Schlockoverse will need to concern itself the most with are the C'Tan and Warp-based stuff. Seeing as both like to ignore the physical laws of the universe.

well, the C'tan just rewrite the area around them.

Eldan
2008-06-21, 01:03 PM
Hmm. I would give this to the Schlock as well, just because some of their stuff is stupidely powerful. Yes, they probably can't kill the Voiddragon or Tzeentch. But they can defeat the empire, Eldar or Tau.
On the other hand, if everyone in 40k worked together, and they were given some preparation time...
I just imagine Space Marines with Tau weapons using the Harlequin Webway and some Eldar/Necron goodies. Or ork hordes with mass-produced Banshee swords. I mean... damn.

GoC
2008-06-21, 10:54 PM
And I don't care how warp blind you are. When you travel into the very lap of the Chaos Gods, the place where reality and the warp are synonymous, any Schlockiverse human is going to be corrupted along with any AI short of Petey... who is bound to lose a few nodes and generally feel like he needs to convince a box of sexually molested puppies to set themselves on fire.

Please read the first post.

puppyavenger
2008-06-22, 08:51 AM
Please read the first post.

it's quite possible to be demon corrupted even if you're warpblind.Also, Bloodthirsers really don't care if you're a null.

Krrth
2008-06-22, 09:22 AM
it's quite possible to be demon corrupted even if you're warpblind.Also, Bloodthirsers really don't care if you're a null.
This is true. However, we ARE talking about people who wear anti-matter bombs as part of the unifor. (ok, one of them does). If it can be hurt by moral weaponry, schlock will kill it.

puppyavenger
2008-06-22, 09:27 AM
This is true. However, we ARE talking about people who wear anti-matter bombs as part of the unifor. (ok, one of them does). If it can be hurt by moral weaponry, schlock will kill it.

in the eye of Terror, that means nothing.

BrainFreeze
2008-06-23, 01:24 PM
Shudder at the powers of Slaanesh and The Deciver working tougether to stop an invading force. Though it's just as likely for The Deciver to sell out everyone just to watch the outcome.

Kane
2008-06-23, 04:00 PM
This is true. However, we ARE talking about people who wear anti-matter bombs as part of the unifor. (ok, one of them does). If it can be hurt by moral weaponry, schlock will kill it.

ROFL. True, dat.

To all disbelievers, I'd like to point out that it doesn't matter who the **** you are, a cohesive blast of plasma a meter in diameter will scare you ****less. Assuming there are recognizable parts of you around to be scared.

Also, it occured to me; what if the IoM or the Tau, not realizing how many races there are through the rift, decide to lure the tyranids through, to nom-nom-nom the sentients there. They'd think a galaxy like that would off the nids, and a galaxy like that would take a while to realize what a threat the nids are. Plus there's the sheer multitude of species for the Nids to nom; they're bound to find useful genetic mutations somewhere...

puppyavenger
2008-06-23, 05:02 PM
ROFL. True, dat.

To all disbelievers, I'd like to point out that it doesn't matter who the **** you are, a cohesive blast of plasma a meter in diameter will scare you ****less. Assuming there are recognizable parts of you around to be scared.



Once again, in the Eye of Terror, the demon laughs and kills you.

Kane
2008-06-23, 05:07 PM
Once again, in the Eye of Terror, the demon laughs and kills you.

I disagree. Even demons get killed by flaming hot plasma. I'm fairly certain there are instances of SMs or other Imperium troops killing demons while in the warp or Eye.

tyckspoon
2008-06-23, 05:11 PM
Once again, in the Eye of Terror, the demon laughs and kills you.

..why are you talking about the Eye? How is that at all relevant? The Schlockverse will only encounter it if they go on the offensive and penetrate very deeply into the 40k universe, and frankly, they're not insane enough to try attacking it in any way that actually puts them at personal risk.

The other thing is that you're just wrong. Being in a Warp-rift like the Eye does not excessively empower any given demon. It doesn't turn every individual Nurgling, Bloodletter, and Daemonette into Great Unclean Ones, Bloodthirsters, and.. whatever the Slaaneshi Greater Demon is. It just means there will be a lot more of them because they don't have to do anything special to materialize, so you'd better bring a lot of ammo. It is possible to operate within the Eye if you're either insane (I think the Space Wolves 13th Company tends to launch raids in there) or very knowledgeable about the Warp (the Eldar have carried out operations on some Demon Worlds in a bid to recover certain lost artifacts.)

puppyavenger
2008-06-23, 05:13 PM
I disagree. Even demons get killed by flaming hot plasma. I'm fairly certain there are instances of SMs or other Imperium troops killing demons while in the warp or Eye.

Eye, maybe got rid of lesser demons bodies, warp, no, they re spawn instantly at wherever their gods nearest land is.

Selrahc
2008-06-23, 05:34 PM
The other thing is that you're just wrong. Being in a Warp-rift like the Eye does not excessively empower any given demon. It doesn't turn every individual Nurgling, Bloodletter, and Daemonette into Great Unclean Ones, Bloodthirsters, and.. whatever the Slaaneshi Greater Demon is. It just means there will be a lot more of them because they don't have to do anything special to materialize, so you'd better bring a lot of ammo. It is possible to operate within the Eye if you're either insane (I think the Space Wolves 13th Company tends to launch raids in there) or very knowledgeable about the Warp (the Eldar have carried out operations on some Demon Worlds in a bid to recover certain lost artifacts.)

It screws the physics up something rotten though. And if you get to a daemon world then the entire planet is the toy of the daemon who controls it. Normal Daemons aren't much stronger in the eye, like you say. But if you piss off that Tzeentchian Daemon prince who made the planet out of raw ichor, then your guns and bullets will be completely ineffective, and he can turn you inside out with a glance. The only thing that stops that is a psyker protecting you.

The eldar can try and reclaim a daemon world because of powerful knowledge of the warp. The 13th company is just doing guerilla raids against chaos marines. It takes something special to assault the eye and have a hope in hell. Raw firepower won't work, which is why the eye hasn't been destroyed by the imperium.



Eye, maybe got rid of lesser demons bodies, warp, no, they re spawn instantly at wherever their gods nearest land is.

Uh.... no. Daemons who get smashed are sent howling back to the warp, licking their wounds. Greivously weakened its a long time before that daemon is ready to fight again. If you defeat a daemon in the warp, it would probably be even more injured.

The whole thing is a bit more serious than an FPS respawn.

tyckspoon
2008-06-23, 06:02 PM
The eldar can try and reclaim a daemon world because of powerful knowledge of the warp. The 13th company is just doing guerilla raids against chaos marines. It takes something special to assault the eye and have a hope in hell. Raw firepower won't work, which is why the eye hasn't been destroyed by the imperium.


Right, like I said: Insane or knowing what you're doing in very great depth and width. :smallsmile: The Schlockverse is neither, although I've no doubt their AIs could figure it out given sufficient time to study the matter. So the likely response of the Schlock people in the event of the Eye becoming their problem is the same as the Imperium's: Set a garrison around it and contain any attempted outbreaks. They'll probably do that better than the Imperium does, as they are ostensibly better equipped to detect and respond to something like a Black Crusade. They might even be able to figure out how to build new warp pylons to constrain the Eye, as long as that doesn't require an arcane talent that can't be replicated without some psykers. They'll never actually try to strike into the Eye- the closest they'll get is sending in some VDA nodes, which will tell them that trying to do anything in there is probably suicidal. Which makes the characteristics of combat within the Eye entirely irrelevant.

Talkkno
2008-06-23, 06:31 PM
In Gaunt's Ghosts, a trooper got a papercut from a Chaos idol. Ten minutes later, he exploded into an obscene pus-spewing deformagrotesquetitude that wanted to eat his former comrade's souls.

sikyon
2008-06-23, 06:47 PM
How do they stack up against necrons/c'tan?

Necrons have interstellar range pin-point teleportation technology as well. You would assume that they have a counter here. C'tan can probably reverse engineer any superior tech as well, being masters of space-time. Also extremly high mobility for necrons, but extremly low numbers. But C'tan are effectivly unkillable, I assume unless you have a star killing weapon through either brute energy or manage to ambush a c'tan while feeding.

What if the deciever reversed engineered the tech and gave it to everyone in 40k universe?

Dervag
2008-06-23, 10:36 PM
How do they stack up against necrons/c'tan?

Necrons have interstellar range pin-point teleportation technology as well. You would assume that they have a counter here. C'tan can probably reverse engineer any superior tech as well, being masters of space-time. Also extremly high mobility for necrons, but extremly low numbers. But C'tan are effectivly unkillable, I assume unless you have a star killing weapon through either brute energy or manage to ambush a c'tan while feeding.

What if the deciever reversed engineered the tech and gave it to everyone in 40k universe?Some of them wouldn't buy the tech, some of them wouldn't be able to build it, and some of them would use it for good because they'd rapidly realize that the Schlockers are much better choices than anyone in their own galaxy if you have to pick an overlord. I mean, I'd take the UNS over the Imperium any day of the week.

As for killing C'tan, I really doubt that anything in the Schlock galaxy can accomplish that except Petey. Petey has the energy reserves to find a way.

GoC
2008-06-23, 10:47 PM
As for killing C'tan, I really doubt that anything in the Schlock galaxy can accomplish that except Petey. Petey has the energy reserves to find a way.

How much energy is required to kill a C'tan?

Kane
2008-06-23, 10:51 PM
How much energy is required to kill a C'tan?

Doesn't matter. He has it.

sikyon
2008-06-23, 10:52 PM
How much energy is required to kill a C'tan?

The only ever confirmed kills against c'tan were c'tan consuming each other. Blackstone fortresses, on their own planet destroying weapons like the death star and more than 2 combined were star destroying weapons, were not able to kill a single c'tan when originally made and at top maintinence/technological understanding. Best they could do was incapacitate it, if I recall.


Doesn't matter. He has it.

Problem is, it might not even be possible outside of c'tan vs c'tan, given the fact that they can warp reality to their whims. Ie "I'm going to shoot you with a laser with the energy of a galaxy" the reply is "lol light near me no longer reacts with matter"

chiasaur11
2008-06-24, 12:21 AM
The only ever confirmed kills against c'tan were c'tan consuming each other. Blackstone fortresses, on their own planet destroying weapons like the death star and more than 2 combined were star destroying weapons, were not able to kill a single c'tan when originally made and at top maintinence/technological understanding. Best they could do was incapacitate it, if I recall.



Problem is, it might not even be possible outside of c'tan vs c'tan, given the fact that they can warp reality to their whims. Ie "I'm going to shoot you with a laser with the energy of a galaxy" the reply is "lol light near me no longer reacts with matter"

Look. We know of at least one non C'tan who can clobber them. So there's precident.

Pun-Pun. C'tan may be overpowered godmoders, but that doesn't mean they can beat everybody. I'd put money on Petey.

konfeta
2008-06-24, 01:50 AM
Blackstone Fortresses are not really physics using weapons, they tear open a hole to the warp which C'Tan find unpleasant. So, no, it's not a precedent.

sikyon
2008-06-24, 05:45 AM
Blackstone Fortresses are not really physics using weapons, they tear open a hole to the warp which C'Tan find unpleasant. So, no, it's not a precedent.

I do concur, likely blackstone fortresses were only able to harm c'tan because c'tan can't affect the warp and are therefore somewhat more vulnerable to warp based weapons. But i don't think this applies here.


Look. We know of at least one non C'tan who can clobber them. So there's precident.

Whom?

Selrahc
2008-06-24, 02:20 PM
Whom?

Well he said pun pun. But thats a ridiculous thing to bring up in this thread. Pun Pun is a theoretical DnD mechanical creation. With no background in 40K, and no record of killing a C'Tan in fluff, Pun Pun doesn't seem a great candidate.

As far as I know nothing in the fluff has ever succesfully properly killed a C'Tan other than another C'Tan draining it. Even Khaine ascendant merely discorporated the nightbringer, and the talismans of vaul were never brought to bear.


I think people overestimate the C'Tan though.

The decievers nefarious machinations seem to revolve around slowly getting back some fancy knives, and building a tiny elite force of human necrons. What has he done thats been that good? He pretty much wrecked his own allies before the war was won during the first great conflict, as he was the one that caused the C'Tan to turn on each other. To propound that he then sabotaged one of the greatest remaining C'Tan as they went to sleep for millions of years. Sun Tzu he ain't, so relying on his abilities to do anything other than selfishly serve his own needs with no view to the bigger picture is pretty naive.

The combat power of the C'Tan on the other hand is also rather crap. The current C'Tan are the rather wimpy Deciever and the much weakened Nightbringer. Either of which would go down to a battle titan, and I'm sure the space fleets of the Schlock verse can bring enough power to bear.

So the hopes for real battle altering cosmic power from the C'Tan come from the sleeping ones. The outsider is too crazy to rely on, so that just leaves the Void Dragon. How powerful is he? we just don't know! Could he kill an entire battlefleet? Is he about as powerful as a single space cruiser? Is he only on the power level of a titan? Can he control reality to an extent where physical power is meaningless? Not enough evidence.

So don't count on the C'Tan to do much of anything in a galactic scale battle.

sikyon
2008-06-24, 03:40 PM
I think people overestimate the C'Tan though.

The decievers nefarious machinations seem to revolve around slowly getting back some fancy knives, and building a tiny elite force of human necrons. What has he done thats been that good? He pretty much wrecked his own allies before the war was won during the first great conflict, as he was the one that caused the C'Tan to turn on each other. To propound that he then sabotaged one of the greatest remaining C'Tan as they went to sleep for millions of years. Sun Tzu he ain't, so relying on his abilities to do anything other than selfishly serve his own needs with no view to the bigger picture is pretty naive.

That you can see. Perhaps his foresight is greater than your own? Eldrad Ulthran himself admitted that "The Deciever's foresight stretches from the dawn of time to beyond my own" with better grammer, but he litterally said the Deceiver had more foresight than him, the most powerful seer in the galaxy. It is likely that neither you nor I can see his grand plan.



The combat power of the C'Tan on the other hand is also rather crap. The current C'Tan are the rather wimpy Deciever and the much weakened Nightbringer. Either of which would go down to a battle titan, and I'm sure the space fleets of the Schlock verse can bring enough power to bear.


Nightbringer should be recovered mostly as he drained a few stars since waking, though he is "without his greatest weapon". C'tan also do NOT go down against a battle titan. The power they can manifest with accuracy is limited to how much the necrodermis can contain. When a C'tan's essence is onboard a starship it "has enough power to destroy entire star systems" and when in their natural state, they are so powerful that they can't even sense gas giants, only stars. However, it is theorized (by myself) that c'tan can't manifest their full power in their natural state because they are so powerful that they are basically blind here (it would be like you compared to a bunch of viruses... you are massivly more powerful than them but by the same token you can't sense their presence).


In short, c'tan are not the little models you see on your game board. They are giant balls of energy in space that suck stars dry.

Edit: In fluff 'crons are rediculously powerful. A standard (non-heavy) destroyer is capable of penetrating 2 sides of a land raider's armor without deflection, which is basically a weapon that can only be mounted on a titan or a starship which the necrons have on the body of a light skimmer.

Selrahc
2008-06-24, 03:58 PM
Perhaps his foresight is greater than your own?

Hey perhaps. I don't have that great foresight. However, foresight and tactics aren't the same thing. From all I've seen the Deciever is very very selfish, and makes moves that leave his team on questionable footing. He allowed the old ones to create the enslavers, a threat even to the C'Tan. He allowed them to mess around with the warp, and create the talismans of vaul.

He might have foresight, but that doesn't neccesarilly mean hes great at tactics.



Nightbringer should be recovered mostly as he drained a few stars since waking

Firstly, when did he eat the stars?

Well in the wargame he is a lot less powerful than a battle titan. If they actually intended his physical form to be so insanely powerful, then they wouldn't have printed stats.

All the indicators say that he hasn't got back anything like his full potential when incorporated.



C'tan also do NOT go down against a battle titan. The power they can manifest with accuracy is limited to how much the necrodermis can contain. When a C'tan's essence is onboard a starship it "has enough power to destroy entire star systems" and when in their natural state, they are so powerful that they can't even sense gas giants, only stars.

Which makes them useless in a battle. The C'Tan do have vast ammounts of energy, but the ammount they can bring to bear is the only thing that matters.




In short, c'tan are not the little models you see on your game board. They are giant balls of energy in space that suck stars dry.

Except when they are in their natural forms they are not sentient beings. You can't call one up and dial it in as a weapon of war.

When they are in physical form they have only a hollow remnant of the power they have. But they do gain consciousness, otherwise why bother? Why limit yourself to a necrodermis if yoou can be a perfectly lucid indestructable planet killer? Screw the necrons, just go kill whatever you want to on your own.

sikyon
2008-06-25, 06:55 AM
Hey perhaps. I don't have that great foresight. However, foresight and tactics aren't the same thing. From all I've seen the Deciever is very very selfish, and makes moves that leave his team on questionable footing. He allowed the old ones to create the enslavers, a threat even to the C'Tan. He allowed them to mess around with the warp, and create the talismans of vaul.


I believe that they were caught totally off guard by the warp. The enslavers was the first time this ever happened, it was something that nobody, not even the masters of the webways (old ones) were able to predict. This threw everything out of whack for everyone, so he can be forgiven for not planning that the universe was suddenly goingt o go topsy turvy.



Firstly, when did he eat the stars?


After he was awoken from pavalonis, many stars in the sector dimmed over the course of a few years.



Well in the wargame he is a lot less powerful than a battle titan. If they actually intended his physical form to be so insanely powerful, then they wouldn't have printed stats.


*coughspacemarinescough*



All the indicators say that he hasn't got back anything like his full potential when incorporated.



There are zero indicators.



Which makes them useless in a battle. The C'Tan do have vast ammounts of energy, but the ammount they can bring to bear is the only thing that matters.


Like, you know, filling a necron tomb ship with part of their essence and blowing up solar systems?



Except when they are in their natural forms they are not sentient beings. You can't call one up and dial it in as a weapon of war.


They are very much sentient when they are in their natural form. Whether they can fight is a different matter.



When they are in physical form they have only a hollow remnant of the power they have. But they do gain consciousness, otherwise why bother? Why limit yourself to a necrodermis if yoou can be a perfectly lucid indestructable planet killer? Screw the necrons, just go kill whatever you want to on your own.

You don't understand the motivation of the c'tan.

C'tan eat the bio-electric impluses in sentient beings. Their traditional food is stars. It's like eating bland, filling, nutrious grey paste to them. When they are in their necrodermis, however, they are able to percieve the electric energies in sentient beings and consuming this is absolutly delicious for them. It's like candy. We are like candy to them. We are more than that even to the chaos gods, where they try to convert and turn us and get us to worship them. C'tan fight wars simply because they want more candy. That's it. They couldn't give a flying fox about the old ones, the emperor, or even the necrons. The only thing that they otherwise care about is the warp, which they hate because they can't control, but it's all in order to get more candy.

In short, they can't eat candy when they are in star form, which is why they go around in necrodermises.

konfeta
2008-06-25, 07:16 AM
When they are in physical form they have only a hollow remnant of the power they have. But they do gain consciousness, otherwise why bother? Why limit yourself to a necrodermis if yoou can be a perfectly lucid indestructable planet killer? Screw the necrons, just go kill whatever you want to on your own.

Because, unlike your misinformed version of WH40k C'Tan, they are not idiots who would stomp their delicious food simply because they can. They want to shepherd the galaxy and feast on it's life forms, not annihilate everything in sight.

Selrahc
2008-06-25, 07:33 AM
*coughspacemarinescough*


Yeah there is a massive ammount of abstraction in the wargame. To say that the Nightbringer in his current formn is perfectly capable of easily destroying battle titans goes way beyond the general level of abstraction though.

As written in the game, he is a little stronger than a bloodthirster an avatar or a hive tyrant. Some very formiddable opponents. You are saying that the game designers were thinking, despite all the fluff in the Necron codex about him being weakened, that he was miles and miles and miles ahead of any of them. That rather than having a tough fight against a bloodthirster, he'd offhandedly smash it into dust and go eat a regiment of baneblades for seconds.

That is assuming a massive ammount of abstraction. More than is supported by the game.



I believe that they were caught totally off guard by the warp.

Uh... and yet you claim he has the greatest foresight ever? That doesn't come hand in hand with being caught off guard. It means that either he wasplaying silly buggers with the universe for some unfathomable purpose, or there are heavy limits on his foresight.

Either way doesn't seem good for his ability to plot and scheme, since the first guy is not a team player, and the second is not a great tactician judged on what he has done.




There are zero indicators.

The necron codex bangs oin about the deciever tricking him as he went into suspended animation and the nightbringer being left drastically weakened. Why the hell would they then immediately reverse it and say that hes back up to full strength again?

If the nightbringer is up to full strength, then that is yet another indicator of how rubbish the deciever is.



Like, you know, filling a necron tomb ship with part of their essence and blowing up solar systems?

I would also like a source for that. It's not in the necron codex, and seems like a piece of fanon.


After he was awoken from pavalonis, many stars in the sector dimmed over the course of a few years.

Yeah. He didn't eat any stars then. He just made a few dim.


They are very much sentient when they are in their natural form. Whether they can fight is a different matter.

My reading of the necron codex is that in their natural forms they have a level of sentience beyond our understanding. Too vast and difuse to really be a consciousness at all.

To me, that says they aren't really sentient beings in their natural forms.


In short, they can't eat candy when they are in star form, which is why they go around in necrodermises.

So the C'Tan are idiots? Because if all you say is true(i.e. the C'Tan are motivated only to gain more living beings, but they are indestructible planet killers in their natural form) then the C'Tan have no view of a grand strategy at all. In fact they are simply horribly bad at obtaining their objectives.

If they had simply killed the old ones then suddenly the entire universe is their plaything. Noone is opposing them, and they can do as they wish.

Instead, they bicker and squabble and act like complete incompetents. No strategy at all. NO focus on attaining more candy, just playing with the candy they have.

The C'Tan could possibly be very strong(I feel we have too little information to peg their exact strength level) but they seem more and more like total incompetents when it comes to using their power.



Because, unlike your misinformed version of WH40k C'Tan, they are not idiots who would stomp their delicious food simply because they can. They want to shepherd the galaxy and feast on it's life forms, not annihilate everything in sight.

Firstly, I doubt I'm misinformed since everyone is working on the same sources. The only few major C'Tan things I haven't read are the Ultramarines novel Nightbringer and some other black library stuff. The Necron codex, the white dwarf fiction about the battle with Khaine, and the battle with the laughing god and a bare trickle of other stuff is what we have to go on.

Secondly, to not stomp on things like the old ones is a horrible, unforgivable mistake. I'm not saying they should destroy everything, I am saying they should destroy their direct and dangerous opposition.

GoC
2008-06-25, 09:12 AM
Screw this.
The C'Tan will not be participating in this war.

sikyon
2008-06-25, 11:01 AM
Yeah there is a massive ammount of abstraction in the wargame. To say that the Nightbringer in his current formn is perfectly capable of easily destroying battle titans goes way beyond the general level of abstraction though.

As written in the game, he is a little stronger than a bloodthirster an avatar or a hive tyrant. Some very formiddable opponents. You are saying that the game designers were thinking, despite all the fluff in the Necron codex about him being weakened, that he was miles and miles and miles ahead of any of them. That rather than having a tough fight against a bloodthirster, he'd offhandedly smash it into dust and go eat a regiment of baneblades for seconds.

That is assuming a massive ammount of abstraction. More than is supported by the game.


Check out rules for movie marines. 1500-2000 points gets you 10 marines. nightbringer is about 14 times more costly than your standard space marine. In fluff, necrons are also one of the few races that don't go down to marines like a knife through butter.



Uh... and yet you claim he has the greatest foresight ever? That doesn't come hand in hand with being caught off guard. It means that either he wasplaying silly buggers with the universe for some unfathomable purpose, or there are heavy limits on his foresight.

He still has more foresight than anyone else in the universe. Nobody, even the old ones who thought they understood the warp and had harnessed it, predicted chaos arising. Saying the deciever has no foresight means that everyone else in the 40k univerese can see 10 feet infront of their nose, and that's it.



The necron codex bangs oin about the deciever tricking him as he went into suspended animation and the nightbringer being left drastically weakened. Why the hell would they then immediately reverse it and say that hes back up to full strength again?

If the nightbringer is up to full strength, then that is yet another indicator of how rubbish the deciever is.


Or the fact that the deiver knew when they awoke the galaxy would be teeming with life again, and with only 4 c'tan left he would need the nightbringer powerful again, but in the event the nightbringer was awoken first the deceiver weakned him so that the deviever would have more catch up time?



Yeah. He didn't eat any stars then. He just made a few dim.


There's no point in eating entire stars. Fusion reactions become steadily more unfavorable as you go up in elemental size. Red stars output less energy than yellow stars. He got to pick and choose which stars he ate, I'd take a bite out of every apple too.



I would also like a source for that. It's not in the necron codex, and seems like a piece of fanon.

It is in the necron codex, you need to read it better. You just need to look harder. I've gone over the codex dozens of times disproving notions about necrons and c'tan espceially.



My reading of the necron codex is that in their natural forms they have a level of sentience beyond our understanding. Too vast and difuse to really be a consciousness at all.

To me, that says they aren't really sentient beings in their natural forms.


So god has a level of sentience beyond our undrestanding, so that god isn't really sentient at all?

Riiiight



So the C'Tan are idiots? Because if all you say is true(i.e. the C'Tan are motivated only to gain more living beings, but they are indestructible planet killers in their natural form) then the C'Tan have no view of a grand strategy at all. In fact they are simply horribly bad at obtaining their objectives.

If they had simply killed the old ones then suddenly the entire universe is their plaything. Noone is opposing them, and they can do as they wish.


They tried to do that, but the old ones pulled out this magical wepaon of psykers against them.

And they do have a grand strategy. Have you not heard of their plan to separate the warp from real space?



Instead, they bicker and squabble and act like complete incompetents. No strategy at all. NO focus on attaining more candy, just playing with the candy they have.


They went into hibernation because they were focused on waiting for the universe to make more candy. The enslavers were never an actual threat to them, but they were eating all the candy. It was eaisier for them to just wait it out than go around kicking ass all those millions of years.



The C'Tan could possibly be very strong(I feel we have too little information to peg their exact strength level) but they seem more and more like total incompetents when it comes to using their power.


Let's see:

They conviced the necrontyr to become necrons and give them their minds and power. They fought the old ones until they were defeated. Then they killed each other so each of them would have more food. Then BAM the impossible happens and the warp goes nuts. At that point there's not enough of them to fight this galactic war succesfully and they decide it's not worth it to fight, so they just go to sleep. Then they wake up.

Deceiver started the entire Gothic War to get rid of the blackstones, and he did it successfully. he manipulated imperium, eldar, and chaos all at once. He arguably also started 13th crusade by leading abbadon to draychen. He got rid of eldrad ulthran by putting blackstones in the hands of chaos. Etc.



Firstly, I doubt I'm misinformed since everyone is working on the same sources. The only few major C'Tan things I haven't read are the Ultramarines novel Nightbringer and some other black library stuff. The Necron codex, the white dwarf fiction about the battle with Khaine, and the battle with the laughing god and a bare trickle of other stuff is what we have to go on.


You need to read the Necron codex with more attention. I've gone over it tons of times and I've posted this stuff dozens of times as well. I know it like I know my physics equations.



Secondly, to not stomp on things like the old ones is a horrible, unforgivable mistake. I'm not saying they should destroy everything, I am saying they should destroy their direct and dangerous opposition.

Old ones were no longer perceived as dangerous after they were almost killed to extinction. Why the hell would they spend thousands of years chasing down the last Old ones (probably hiding in webways too, making it that much more difficult) instead of sitting down and relaxing? The c'tan are blind to the warp. They made the mistake once, they arn't making it again. It's like if suddenly, tommorow, a 4th spacial dimension happened, and 4th dimensional creatures attacked everyone. WTF would we do. Every single preparation every single person on this world has made for an apocalypse would be useless.

Selrahc
2008-06-25, 03:59 PM
Check out rules for movie marines. 1500-2000 points gets you 10 marines. nightbringer is about 14 times more costly than your standard space marine. In fluff, necrons are also one of the few races that don't go down to marines like a knife through butter.

Except "movie marines" are junk. An attempt to put plot armour into a statline. They don't match up to the fluff at all on an objective level.

For example, a Space Marine who gets hit by a lascannon is dead. Its one of the weapons that kills a Space Marine in fluff damn easily. A movie marine would barely be scratched.



He still has more foresight than anyone else in the universe. Nobody, even the old ones who thought they understood the warp and had harnessed it, predicted chaos arising. Saying the deciever has no foresight means that everyone else in the 40k univerese can see 10 feet infront of their nose, and that's it.

Well you're basing the entire thing on what Eldrad said. Eldrad might have been wrong, y'know? He has prior form.

Aside from that you've now admitted that the Deciever is fallible. Now we see that he isn't always right, we can judge him by his actions. And his actions have been of questionable effiacy.



Or the fact that the deiver knew when they awoke the galaxy would be teeming with life again, and with only 4 c'tan left he would need the nightbringer powerful again, but in the event the nightbringer was awoken first the deceiver weakned him so that the deviever would have more catch up time?

But... the dude is supposed to have infinite foresight. He should know who is going to get brought out of stasis first!



There's no point in eating entire stars. Fusion reactions become steadily more unfavorable as you go up in elemental size. Red stars output less energy than yellow stars. He got to pick and choose which stars he ate, I'd take a bite out of every apple too.

Not very convincing. To me at least.


It is in the necron codex, you need to read it better. You just need to look harder. I've gone over the codex dozens of times disproving notions about necrons and c'tan espceially.

And yet you don't provide page numbers or quotes?

Here is what you may be thinking of...

"THe C'Tan began to battle amongst themselves for sport and spite as they unleashed destructive forces beyond comprehension, planets were razed, suns extinguished and whole systems devoured by black holes"

Now that is not the same as a C'Tan merging with a space craft and making some sort of Death Star ship. Seems to me more like necrons doing the grunt work in some C'Tan wars than the C'Tan doing the heavy lifting.


So god has a level of sentience beyond our undrestanding, so that god isn't really sentient at all?

Not in the way we understand it.



And they do have a grand strategy. Have you not heard of their plan to separate the warp from real space?

Because of their initial giant balls up of things?



Old ones were no longer perceived as dangerous after they were almost killed to extinction.

And its because of stuff like that that I have to conclude the C'Tan are fricking fools. The old ones at one point ruled the universe. They were godlike beings with instant teleportation, the ability to create new species from whole cloth with almost any characteristics, crazily advanced technology, and who had defeated even the most powerful C'Tan in single combat.

And the C'Tan momentarily gain the upper hand, and suddenly they piss away their advantage in an orgy of self destruction.

Extreme hubris, and extreme stupidity.



They went into hibernation because they were focused on waiting for the universe to make more candy. The enslavers were never an actual threat to them, but they were eating all the candy. It was eaisier for them to just wait it out than go around kicking ass all those millions of years.

The enslavers were a threat to everything! They were ripping apart the fabric of the universe as more and more enslavers ripped apart the warp. Andthe enslavers never found a mind they couldn't conquer. Even the C'Tan were at risk.



It's like if suddenly, tommorow, a 4th spacial dimension happened, and 4th dimensional creatures attacked everyone.

If I am a being whose foresight extends throughout time and space, apparently without limit, thenI would probably not be all that surprised if a dimension my hated foes have control of and which is anathema to be is developed into a weapon to be used against me.

And in fact they did put wheels in motion to seperate the two worlds, so it obviously isn't as big a jump as you're saying.

Instead of finishing things up though, and making their warp seperating machine while they were still in control, the C'Tan instead decided to have a nice long snooze. Good going chums, another piece of Stargod tactical brilliance there.

GoC
2008-06-25, 10:06 PM
It's like if suddenly, tommorow, a 4th spacial dimension happened, and 4th dimensional creatures attacked everyone. WTF would we do. Every single preparation every single person on this world has made for an apocalypse would be useless.

That's only because there is nothing they can do to combat a 4d being.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-06-25, 10:35 PM
That's only because there is nothing they can do to combat a 4d being.

Not necessarily - we can blow up whatever 3 dimensions it decides to show :smallamused:

I gotta say though, I'm impressed by how easily the Schlockverse goes through 40k. I mean, we're stuck here arguing whether C'Tan might be able to stop them.

If Petey's involved, the game ends quickly.
- The Imperium definitely loses (Terapedos + Gatekeeper Fabs = dead Imperium)
-- and let's not forget that Gatekeeper-produced Teraprobes can effectively map the 40K Universe faster than it would take the Imperium to mass its forces.
- Eldar likely lose, unless they run to the Webway
- Chaos loses if it steps outside the Eye of Chaos
- Tau lose hardocre (not even FTL!)
- Tyrannids probably lose (Gravy Guns + Terapedo Conversion Bombs should be able to shred a Hive Fleet)
- Orcs lose a lot (see above)

And that leaves the Necrons, yes? Though they are the mys-ter-i-ous god power of 40K, it seems likely that with Petey harnessing the Great Core Drive he'll be able to at least out-power the Necrons. And yes, if actual, physical gods decide to attack the Schlockverse, it'll probably lose, but who's surprised there?

I'm pretty sure that Void Shields can't stop Teraports, since the anti-teraport fields require strong gravitational fluctuations to disrupt them, and as far as I can tell, nobody in 40K uses anything stronger than Land Speeder (or Hovertank) anti-grav.

warty goblin
2008-06-25, 10:42 PM
I'm pretty sure that Void Shields can't stop Teraports, since the anti-teraport fields require strong gravitational fluctuations to disrupt them, and as far as I can tell, nobody in 40K uses anything stronger than Land Speeder (or Hovertank) anti-grav.

Also note that ships with Void shields can in fact orbit planets, suggesting that they in fact do not block gravity. Of course Schlock ships with gravity blocking shields can do the same thing, but the Schlockverse's manipulation of gravity strikes me as being far more precise than WH40K's.

sikyon
2008-06-25, 10:58 PM
Except "movie marines" are junk. An attempt to put plot armour into a statline. They don't match up to the fluff at all on an objective level.

In fluff marines never get hit by big guns.




Well you're basing the entire thing on what Eldrad said. Eldrad might have been wrong, y'know? He has prior form.

Aside from that you've now admitted that the Deciever is fallible. Now we see that he isn't always right, we can judge him by his actions. And his actions have been of questionable effiacy.


I never said he was infalliable, just that he was extremly smart.




But... the dude is supposed to have infinite foresight. He should know who is going to get brought out of stasis first!



You are confusing foresight with prescience. Foresight means that he's like batman, he's got plans upon plans upon plans. Not that he can acutally see the future.



Not very convincing. To me at least.




Suit yourself



And yet you don't provide page numbers or quotes?

Here is what you may be thinking of...

"THe C'Tan began to battle amongst themselves for sport and spite as they unleashed destructive forces beyond comprehension, planets were razed, suns extinguished and whole systems devoured by black holes"

Now that is not the same as a C'Tan merging with a space craft and making some sort of Death Star ship. Seems to me more like necrons doing the grunt work in some C'Tan wars than the C'Tan doing the heavy lifting.


I do not have my codex on me where I live currently. So I obtained a version for my use, because I'm getting bored of having to convice people that I know my necron fluff backwards and forwards. P28 "The Nightbringer is death incarnate, a sadistic god with the power to unmake the stars. it delights in inflicting pain and suffering not only to feed, but simply because it can. Its gaze is death and its mighty scythe has feasted on the deaths of civilisations. With a starship imbued with a measure of its power, the Nightbringer has destroyed entire star systems on a whim and gorged itself on the death agonies of countless billions of lives."


Not in the way we understand it.
Is it aware of itself. yes. Thus it is sentient.


Because of their initial giant balls up of things?
Actually the old ones ballsed it up. They eventually had to invent orks to keep the enslavers from finishing them up, which apparently failed.


And its because of stuff like that that I have to conclude the C'Tan are fricking fools. The old ones at one point ruled the universe. They were godlike beings with instant teleportation, the ability to create new species from whole cloth with almost any characteristics, crazily advanced technology, and who had defeated even the most powerful C'Tan in single combat.

And the C'Tan momentarily gain the upper hand, and suddenly they piss away their advantage in an orgy of self destruction.

Extreme hubris, and extreme stupidity.

They did not have instant teleportation. Necrons have instant teleportation. Old ones had webways (much, much, much slower). Their tech wasn't particularly advanced as well. Necron tech was superior but during the first attack they didn't have inertialess drives yet and thus got plastered. I don't recall this defeating most powerful c'tan in single combat. Do you mean khaine vs nightbringer? That's a phyric victory at best. It does no real harm to the nightbringer but khaine was forever affected.

C'tan also did not "momentarily" gain the upper hand. The Old ones were defeated. They were scattered. The c'tan were consolidating power the way any backstabing race does.

Remember, the c'tan can't actually be killed by anyone except other c'tan. It makes sense for them to take care of each other first.


The enslavers were a threat to everything! They were ripping apart the fabric of the universe as more and more enslavers ripped apart the warp. Andthe enslavers never found a mind they couldn't conquer. Even the C'Tan were at risk.

No. Just... no. C'tan were absolutly not at risk by enslavers. P30 " 'The plague (enslaver plague) was not a disease and it couldn't harm us, but...' The thing tilted its head back as if dreaming of long lost times. 'It was killing everything else' And no, I am not a Necron. You mistake the slave for the master. You'll understand better when I take you back inside.' "



If I am a being whose foresight extends throughout time and space, apparently without limit, thenI would probably not be all that surprised if a dimension my hated foes have control of and which is anathema to be is developed into a weapon to be used against me.

And in fact they did put wheels in motion to seperate the two worlds, so it obviously isn't as big a jump as you're saying.

Instead of finishing things up though, and making their warp seperating machine while they were still in control, the C'Tan instead decided to have a nice long snooze. Good going chums, another piece of Stargod tactical brilliance there.

Yes, it is actually if that dimension doesn't conform to reality. I would be totally suprised if I was omnipotent to the best of my knowledge and then something new came along. They obviously did not understand the warp could be used as a direct weapon, which the old ones never did, and concocted this incredibly advanced technology AFTER meeting the psykers, at which point it was too late.


That's only because there is nothing they can do to combat a 4d being.

That we know of, currently, because nobody has ever given it any substantial thought.



I'm pretty sure that Void Shields can't stop Teraports, since the anti-teraport fields require strong gravitational fluctuations to disrupt them, and as far as I can tell, nobody in 40K uses anything stronger than Land Speeder (or Hovertank) anti-grav.

Necron ships use inertialess drives, and inertial is connected with mass which is connected with gravity, logically it wouldn't be that far off for them to be able to quickly gain anti-teleport measures.

Talkkno
2008-06-26, 12:23 AM
In fluff marines never get hit by big guns.
:smallmad:In the traitors hand, Jurgan with a melta and couple other guardsmen firing lasguns managed to take down a Chaos Marine while CIAHPHAS CAIN HERO OF THE IMPERIUM distracted him in close combat with a chainsword.

Deadmeat.GW
2008-06-26, 12:48 AM
Hum, no gravity based weapons/vehicles bigger then a Landspeeder...

So...I guess super heavy grav tanks are landspeeder sized, Adeptus super weapons with gravity weapons the size of a titan are also landspeeder sized, ...

Shall we just say that according to that the biggest thing existing in 40K is a landspeeder and stop at that?

No accurate or efficient use of gravity controlling devices...

Man portable graviton guns are not controllable, efficient or accurate...?

You might need to re-evalute that 'theory' of yours that the 40K verse has none of those.
The fact that the table top game has dropped most of the gravity weapons/equipment because they unbalanced the game outright does not mean that it is not actually there.

A very good example of excellent miniaturized use of gravity controllers...Eldar Harlequins, remember those guys?
The Flipbelts as they are commonly known work on the same principles as anti-grav in an exceedingly small package.
Swooping Hawks?
Hawk Wings are anti-grav based and allow you to halo drop with no problem...

The Imps have got graviton guns from pistol size upwards, mostly rifle sized though, and have still got access to Anti-grav fortresses (stupidly rare, expensive and annoyingly the Adeptus Mechanicus seems to not want to make more without serious pressure on them, I wonder if they are not being manipulated into keeping some tech away from the front-line armies of the Imps just so Necrons would not need to have to deal with them).
Do you remember the Adeptus Mechanicus Golgotha and co?
Super-super-heavy super weapons that were used during the Horus Heresy and show up in Epic still.
Those included Vortex missile battery, Gigantic Sonic based weapons, massive mega cannons, tremendous defence lasers, ...a overscaled graviton gun...
Sadly game balance means you have to miss out on those (single shot eliminating any non-demon models for the rest of the game? Hit-and-eliminate weapons are bad for game balance. Auto-penetration on any vehicle, including vehicles which were shielded by void/power/etc shields is almost as bad.) and as such fluff writers have mostly forgotten that they exist.

Don't forget, the Imps lost almost all anti-grav because otherwise the Eldar would not have their special schtick in the early days of the game.
Anti-grav went from plentifull and able to move Capitol Imperialis sized vehicles (See assault on the Imperial Palace story lines for an example), whole companies with anti-grav jetbikes and gravity based weapons which although rare-ish were available to any Techmarine or above.

They can technically still make these weapons but don't for some reason and jetbikes are 'lost' despite Mars itself having a copy of the STC for it...

A lot of the missing bits in current fluff concerning these is due to changes wrought in the balance of the table top game.
And too many fluff writers are simply unaware that these things are in the Imps list of things available.

turkishproverb
2008-06-26, 01:42 AM
Alot of those changes HAVE been retroactively added to the fluff though.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-06-26, 10:25 AM
You might need to re-evalute that 'theory' of yours that the 40K verse has none of those. The fact that the table top game has dropped most of the gravity weapons/equipment because they unbalanced the game outright does not mean that it is not actually there.

Despite your needlessly sarcastic post (this is a versus thread, so I guess it's to be expected :smalltongue:) you're missing an important point. None of the Battlefleet Gothic ships have gravity weapons, nor do any of the forces use gravity for defense. If I recall correctly, personal shield systems use energy effects to deflect ballistic fire, not a standing gravity wave (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/d/20010715.html).

Heck, even the Graviton Guns did no more than set up difficult terrain (if I recall... it certainly wasn't as good as a D-Cannon), which is nothing compared to shredding people with tidal forces (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/d/20050918.html).

This is important because, when it comes to deflecting projectiles (and stopping teraports) you need power, not finesse. The state of Imperium drive technology appears to be good enough to lift tanks (slowly) and maybe create a burst of heavy gravity. Hell, flip belts, the most sophisticated grav-engines in the Universe, don't even give the Harlequins an armor save.

GoC
2008-06-26, 12:43 PM
That we know of, currently, because nobody has ever given it any substantial thought.
No, it's simply impossible. Ever read Flatland?
4D means we can't hurt them because they can simply poke your head out. No matter how strong the materials in flatland are it's impossible to create a material that can withstand a good poke while less than an atom thick.


Necron ships use inertialess drives, and inertial is connected with mass which is connected with gravity, logically it wouldn't be that far off for them to be able to quickly gain anti-teleport measures.

Actually inertial mass and gravitational mass are different things. It's only coincidence that they are always equivalent so affecting one doesn't mean affecting the other.

sikyon
2008-06-26, 04:00 PM
No, it's simply impossible. Ever read Flatland?
4D means we can't hurt them because they can simply poke your head out. No matter how strong the materials in flatland are it's impossible to create a material that can withstand a good poke while less than an atom thick.


Uhh no, that means that we can't defend against them, not that we can't hurt them. For example, if you are fighting stick figures and you poke the head out of one of them, the others can get a rectangle and insert it into your finger, trapping it there or cutting it off. Furthermore, it is not "by definition" that we can't defend against them. You are thinking that we won't figure out how to exist in 3 dimensions yet fight in 4 dimensions. If we know 4 dimensions exist we may be able to rotate our 3D in 4D, so that we can exist in 3D but fight in 4D by realigning our dimensions (think of it as a peice of paper rotating, it is 2D but it can move in 3D)



Actually inertial mass and gravitational mass are different things. It's only coincidence that they are always equivalent so affecting one doesn't mean affecting the other.

There is exactly ZERO evidence for this postulation. The general theory of relativity states that they are the same thing. There has never been an experimental result disproving the correspondance (you'd win a nobel prize for it, in a heartbeat). This seems to be some sort of perception that is popular with the pseudo-science the internet spreads.

While yes, we can't actually prove that they are the same thing, we can't really prove anything in science so it's good enough to be as trustable as the whole of general relativity.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-06-26, 04:17 PM
There is exactly ZERO evidence for this postulation. The general theory of relativity states that they are the same thing. There has never been an experimental result disproving the correspondance (you'd win a nobel prize for it, in a heartbeat). This seems to be some sort of perception that is popular with the pseudo-science the internet spreads.

While yes, we can't actually prove that they are the same thing, we can't really prove anything in science so it's good enough to be as trustable as the whole of general relativity.

Photons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon#Physical_properties) have no mass yet have inertia. I mean, "gravitational mass" and "inertial mass" are weird concepts, but perhaps he meant that something which exerts no gravitational pull (e.g. has no mass) may still possess momentum, and thus be affected by gravitation.

Anyhoo, I'm not going to pretend to be a physicist here (though I do play one on TV :smalltongue:) it's going to be futile to try and argue "science doesn't say that" when looking at Schlock and 40K. Better to try to argue by analogies - or look at the source material (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertialess_drive).

The key point with Teraports and Inertialess Drives is that an Inertialess Drive does not produce gravitational effects - it is insulated from such effects, at the very least. Since you need to generate gravitational disruptive effects (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/d/20010811.html) to stop a teraport, I'm not so sure that Necrons are going to be safe, even in Inertialess Mode. Plus, with enough power, you can bypass (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/d/20060508.html) even these safeguards.

sikyon
2008-06-26, 04:30 PM
Photons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon#Physical_properties) have no mass yet have inertia. I mean, "gravitational mass" and "inertial mass" are weird concepts, but perhaps he meant that something which exerts no gravitational pull (e.g. has no mass) may still possess momentum, and thus be affected by gravitation.


Photons do not have inertia. Photons have momentum, but momentum is not dependant on mass, no matter what p=m*v stuff they teach you high school. Light is affected by gravitiation because gravity bends space-time, and can be affected by gravity - but this makes no statements about the mass of the photon itself.




The key point with Teraports and Inertialess Drives is that an Inertialess Drive does not produce gravitational effects - it is insulated from such effects, at the very least. Since you need to generate gravitational disruptive effects (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/d/20010811.html) to stop a teraport, I'm not so sure that Necrons are going to be safe, even in Inertialess Mode. Plus, with enough power, you can bypass (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/d/20060508.html) even these safeguards.

I was suggesting that because manipulation of inertia is similar to manipulation of gravity, and c'tan have control of space-time, it would be a simple matter to quickly come up with a countermeasure.

GoC
2008-06-26, 04:48 PM
Uhh no, that means that we can't defend against them, not that we can't hurt them. For example, if you are fighting stick figures and you poke the head out of one of them, the others can get a rectangle and insert it into your finger, trapping it there or cutting it off. Furthermore, it is not "by definition" that we can't defend against them. You are thinking that we won't figure out how to exist in 3 dimensions yet fight in 4 dimensions. If we know 4 dimensions exist we may be able to rotate our 3D in 4D, so that we can exist in 3D but fight in 4D by realigning our dimensions (think of it as a peice of paper rotating, it is 2D but it can move in 3D)
That requires co-opting something from their world.
And how would that stickman trap your finger there? None of the forces holding that rectangle in place are very strong due to the much smaller number of particles they have being attractive.
They have a very very large (depending on how large their particles are but likely over 10^16 or the width of a the earth (assuming their "planet" is similar sized) relative to an atom) advantage in energy and force. Even nukes aren't going to dent their fingers!


There is exactly ZERO evidence for this postulation. The general theory of relativity states that they are the same thing. There has never been an experimental result disproving the correspondance (you'd win a nobel prize for it, in a heartbeat). This seems to be some sort of perception that is popular with the pseudo-science the internet spreads.

While yes, we can't actually prove that they are the same thing, we can't really prove anything in science so it's good enough to be as trustable as the whole of general relativity.
They aren't "the same thing" more or less by definition. One is inertial and the other is gravitational. As far as I know there isn't a single formula that links them and makes them equivalent.
So were it possible to affect one directly the other won't necessarily be effected.

Oslecamo
2008-06-26, 04:50 PM
The whole idea of the necron technology is that nobody really knows how they work.

If they are losing a battle they simply vanish from the battlefied, taking ALL wreckage and defeated units with them.

They're the WH40K undeads. They're suposed to be mysterious, shrouded in darkness, the thing that makes even a SM **** himself on his power armor because he doesn't know what he's facing.

Emperor Tippy
2008-06-26, 05:41 PM
They're the WH40K undeads. They're suposed to be mysterious, shrouded in darkness, the thing that makes even a SM **** himself on his power armor because he doesn't know what he's facing.

Your average SM would **** himself on his power armor when facing any one of the Tagon's Toughs grunts.

The basic soldiers of all of the major players in the Schlockverse are far superior to your average SM. When in armor (which is their uniform most of the time) they are stronger, faster, can fly, have full life support, and a few other abilities. Even out of armor their solider boosts put them at least within shouting distance of the SM's (the exact extent of the boosts is never stated).

sikyon
2008-06-26, 05:52 PM
That requires co-opting something from their world.
And how would that stickman trap your finger there? None of the forces holding that rectangle in place are very strong due to the much smaller number of particles they have being attractive.
They have a very very large (depending on how large their particles are but likely over 10^16 or the width of a the earth (assuming their "planet" is similar sized) relative to an atom) advantage in energy and force. Even nukes aren't going to dent their fingers!


The idea is you make a 2D incision in their fingers. Because of the 0 cross sectional area of their rectangle, they have infinite force to insert it into your finger with. You now have a 2D potential inbetween the atoms of your fingers. This will sever all the atomic bonds and you lose your finger.



They aren't "the same thing" more or less by definition. One is inertial and the other is gravitational. As far as I know there isn't a single formula that links them and makes them equivalent.
So were it possible to affect one directly the other won't necessarily be effected.

Inertia = Gravity is a fundamental tenent of General Relativity, as I said in my previous post.

GoC
2008-06-26, 06:09 PM
The idea is you make a 2D incision in their fingers. Because of the 0 cross sectional area of their rectangle, they have infinite force to insert it into your finger with. You now have a 2D potential inbetween the atoms of your fingers. This will sever all the atomic bonds and you lose your finger.
Hmm...
Correct but a nitpick: That's pressure not force.
And there's still the matter of them poking your brain with a stick and the fact they're impossible to ambush as they can see inside and through every 3D object. So they poke the brains of the generals. If they had the numbers in the same ballpark as earth they'd just poke important brains and could exterminate humanity in a very short period of time (minutes) with everyone who's a threat killed in the first second.


Inertia = Gravity is a fundamental tenent of General Relativity, as I said in my previous post.
I am aware of that, however the only reason it should be so is because it has been observed.
Which...
Sounds pretty silly now that I mention it.

However you have still not demonstrated that manipulating inertia allows you to manipulate gravity as well. All you have is a theory (which isn't bad but needs supporting)

sikyon
2008-06-26, 06:29 PM
Hmm...
Correct but a nitpick: That's pressure not force.
And there's still the matter of them poking your brain with a stick and the fact they're impossible to ambush as they can see inside and through every 3D object. So they poke the brains of the generals. If they had the numbers in the same ballpark as earth they'd just poke important brains and could exterminate humanity in a very short period of time (minutes) with everyone who's a threat killed in the first second.


The point is that you can't fight back at all.



However you have still not demonstrated that manipulating inertia allows you to manipulate gravity as well. All you have is a theory (which isn't bad but needs supporting)

How would you like me to support it? How would you like me to support thermodynamics? How would you like me to support science? I can't do it.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-06-26, 08:25 PM
I was suggesting that because manipulation of inertia is similar to manipulation of gravity, and c'tan have control of space-time, it would be a simple matter to quickly come up with a countermeasure.

I'm certainly to suggesting that you're going to be able to terapedo a c'tan - I mean, they're gods. But the Necrons who don't happen to have a C'Tan warping reality about them? Probably quite dead.

So, 40K has the following left:
- Chaos forces in the Eye of Terror
- Necrons personally protected by a C'Tan

I think that Schlockverse is probably going to get the upper hand here. Chaos raids will be a problem, but less so than under Imperial control (faster response times) and it's conceivable that Petey will be able to figure out a way to use the nigh-infinite energy at his disposal to take out the C'Tan. Heck, bad comes to worse, he can set up a Galaxy Bomb (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/d/20050710.html) in the Milky Way and then shoot anything that comes through the Plot Portal.

Hand down win for Schlockverse. Even the Empire don't have a Galaxy Bomb.

sikyon
2008-06-26, 09:49 PM
I'm certainly to suggesting that you're going to be able to terapedo a c'tan - I mean, they're gods. But the Necrons who don't happen to have a C'Tan warping reality about them? Probably quite dead.

So, 40K has the following left:
- Chaos forces in the Eye of Terror
- Necrons personally protected by a C'Tan

I think that Schlockverse is probably going to get the upper hand here. Chaos raids will be a problem, but less so than under Imperial control (faster response times) and it's conceivable that Petey will be able to figure out a way to use the nigh-infinite energy at his disposal to take out the C'Tan. Heck, bad comes to worse, he can set up a Galaxy Bomb (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/d/20050710.html) in the Milky Way and then shoot anything that comes through the Plot Portal.

Hand down win for Schlockverse. Even the Empire don't have a Galaxy Bomb.

Can you describe a terrapedo?

Oracle_Hunter
2008-06-26, 10:14 PM
Can you describe a terrapedo?

Sure thing! (BTW you should totally read Schlock Mercenary - superior writing, decent art, and it hasn't missed a daily update in years)

So, first we have the Teraport (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/d/20000707.html). It works essentially like an FTL drive, except that it teleports objects, rather than moving them through space.

Shortly after acquiring Petey, the Toughs introduce him to this little device (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/d/20010519.html). Petey quickly develops the Terapedo (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/d/20010727.html) which sends a torpedo (armed with a conversion bomb (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/d/20010130.html), anti-matter warhead (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/d/20080511.html), or what have you (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/d/20020307.html)) via teraport wherever he wants to send it.

The only way to stop a teraport (and therefore a terapedo) is to saturate the area with gravitation pulses (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/d/20010811.html) (or coherent light... which nobody uses for some reason) which can be powered (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/d/20060508.html) through with a sufficiently large power source (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/d/20050710.html).

Now, why is this a problem for 40K? Because, unlike the Schlockverse where people manipulate gravity (even as a weapon) all the time, we see very little high-powered gravy usage in 40K. This means that any given Schlockverse vessel would be able to drop teraton nukes inside any ship they can see (and they can see tons with teraprobes and hypernet relays). Furthermore, the teraport is instantaneous, so as soon as someone "sees" a target, it is dead.

turkishproverb
2008-06-27, 12:59 AM
So the C'Tan are idiots? Because if all you say is true(i.e. the C'Tan are motivated only to gain more living beings, but they are indestructible planet killers in their natural form) then the C'Tan have no view of a grand strategy at all. In fact they are simply horribly bad at obtaining their objectives.

If they had simply killed the old ones then suddenly the entire universe is their plaything. Noone is opposing them, and they can do as they wish.

Instead, they bicker and squabble and act like complete incompetents. No strategy at all. NO focus on attaining more candy, just playing with the candy they have.

Alot of that is the Deciever and Laughing God's Faults.

Selrahc
2008-06-27, 05:07 AM
This is getting a bit long, hence being put off for a few days.


In fluff marines never get hit by big guns.

They do. Just not often(In fact only twice that I've read). Every time they have been hit by something of tank killing calibur though, kaboom.

And hell, Space Marines have been killed by falling logs, arrows and being hit by a carried rock before. The Movie Marines are totally tongue in cheek exagerations, and that should be clear from reading the list(Stunt doubles).



I never said he was infalliable, just that he was extremly smart.

But he has never done anything particularly brilliant to support that.


You are confusing foresight with prescience. Foresight means that he's like batman, he's got plans upon plans upon plans. Not that he can acutally see the future.

Right, but his plans haven't been that great. So while he makes a lot of plans, he doesn't make them suceed.



I do not have my codex on me where I live currently. So I obtained a version for my use, because I'm getting bored of having to convice people that I know my necron fluff backwards and forwards. P28 "The Nightbringer is death incarnate, a sadistic god with the power to unmake the stars. it delights in inflicting pain and suffering not only to feed, but simply because it can. Its gaze is death and its mighty scythe has feasted on the deaths of civilisations. With a starship imbued with a measure of its power, the Nightbringer has destroyed entire star systems on a whim and gorged itself on the death agonies of countless billions of lives."

I do think you know your Necron fluff, we just have different interpretations of the fluff.

Now the meaning of the word star systems in this sentence is subject to two meanings. The one you are using is that he smashed the physical forms of planets. However I say he destroyed countless star systems in the same sense that a chapter of Chaos Marines would. Leaving them uninhabited with any signs of life destroyed.

I think mine makes more sense, because otherwise why would the Nightbringer have to fight Khaine? Why not just smash the entire planet he is on?



Is it aware of itself. yes. Thus it is sentient.

Hey whatever. Whether it is aware of itself is unimportant. It doesn't



Actually the old ones ballsed it up. They eventually had to invent orks to keep the enslavers from finishing them up, which apparently failed.

From the old ones perspective nothing that bad actually happened. They were losing the


They did not have instant teleportation. Necrons have instant teleportation. Old ones had webways (much, much, much slower). Their tech wasn't particularly advanced as well. Necron tech was superior but during the first attack they didn't have inertialess drives yet and thus got plastered. I don't recall this defeating most powerful c'tan in single combat. Do you mean khaine vs nightbringer? That's a phyric victory at best. It does no real harm to the nightbringer but khaine was forever affected.

The old ones tech was very advanced. Just not quite at the level of the necrons. Webways are maybe slower than inertialess drives, but they are still able to take you clear across the galaxy in days(Or maybe weeks)



C'tan also did not "momentarily" gain the upper hand. The Old ones were defeated. They were scattered. The c'tan were consolidating power the way any backstabing race does.

Well they weren't defeated. They made the talismans of vaul. They created the orks. They made the enslavers. They maddened the outsider. Thier most important actions in the war seem to have been taken after you claim they were defeated.


Remember, the c'tan can't actually be killed by anyone except other c'tan. It makes sense for them to take care of each other first.

Yeah. Who cares if your enemies develop weapons to permanently kill you, and rip apart the fabric of space time, when a final concerted push could have eliminated them once and for all. Far more important to go on a killing spree amongst your most valuable allies.



No. Just... no. C'tan were absolutly not at risk by enslavers. P30 " 'The plague (enslaver plague) was not a disease and it couldn't harm us, but...' The thing tilted its head back as if dreaming of long lost times. 'It was killing everything else' And no, I am not a Necron. You mistake the slave for the master. You'll understand better when I take you back inside.' "

Yeah. A very trustworthy source there :smallwink:

I mean he is fricking called the "Deciever", its not out of character for him to.. decieve.



Yes, it is actually if that dimension doesn't conform to reality. I would be totally suprised if I was omnipotent to the best of my knowledge and then something new came along. They obviously did not understand the warp could be used as a direct weapon, which the old ones never did, and concocted this incredibly advanced technology AFTER meeting the psykers, at which point it was too late.

The old ones never had D cannons or wraithcannons? Because the C'Tan certainly did know about the warp. They knew it was a place theyhad no power over, and they knew it was very important to the old ones. They even started work on anti warp devices prior to the big eruption of chaos.

sikyon
2008-06-27, 06:50 AM
I'm just gonna cut out some extraneous stuff, like marines and whatnot.



But he has never done anything particularly brilliant to support that.


He outsmarted the eldar, manipulated the imperium and played chaos like marionettes in the gothic war.



Right, but his plans haven't been that great. So while he makes a lot of plans, he doesn't make them suceed.


Which plans would you be refering to here.



Now the meaning of the word star systems in this sentence is subject to two meanings. The one you are using is that he smashed the physical forms of planets. However I say he destroyed countless star systems in the same sense that a chapter of Chaos Marines would. Leaving them uninhabited with any signs of life destroyed.


Chaos marines, unless khorne, don't leave star systems without life, btw. Chaos demands worshippers.

But it doesn't really matter, does it? It is virtually undoutable that the nightbringer was capable of destroying those planets after stripping them of their defenses, but why do so? Reasoning: Imperial fleets are capable of cracking planets apart using nothing but their conventional firepower. Dark angels fleet was able to destroy their homeworld while trading fire with entrenched anti-ship batteries. Necron tech and firepower is magnitudes greater, especially with c'tan on board.



I think mine makes more sense, because otherwise why would the Nightbringer have to fight Khaine? Why not just smash the entire planet he is on?


Because the nightbringer loves sadism for the sake of sadism. Perhaps a whim struck him to fight on the battlefield. What does he care? He is a god, they can't hurt him, he doesn't give a mouses' butt about the war because he is invulnerable. You can't apply our reasoning to the c'tan. They have so much power that we can't know what goes on in their heads.



From the old ones perspective nothing that bad actually happened. They were losing the


The necrons had stopped chasing the old ones and had turned against themselves. They could have simply kept fleeing, perhaps fled to another galaxy, ect. What happened here was that their creations spawned new creations which attacked them, and the c'tan were immune to. Sorta a backfire. They signed a death warrent when before it wasn't certain.



The old ones tech was very advanced. Just not quite at the level of the necrons. Webways are maybe slower than inertialess drives, but they are still able to take you clear across the galaxy in days(Or maybe weeks)


You're probably looking at a factor of hours (moments) for necrons and a factor of perhaps a year for the webway, while it takes decades for a ship of the imperium of man to travel across the galaxy.



Well they weren't defeated. They made the talismans of vaul. They created the orks. They made the enslavers. They maddened the outsider. Thier most important actions in the war seem to have been taken after you claim they were defeated.

Talismans of vaul were either made by a chaos god. The orks were just another product of their engineering, one that is only succesful because of their reproductive abilities (nothing to necrons which willingly wipe planets of life). Jokerao, in my opinion, are superior in ability. The old ones did not madden the outsider, the chaos laughing god did.

Eldar gods =/= old ones. Eldar gods were actual chaos entities.



Yeah. Who cares if your enemies develop weapons to permanently kill you, and rip apart the fabric of space time, when a final concerted push could have eliminated them once and for all. Far more important to go on a killing spree amongst your most valuable allies.


A) Talismans of vaul were never proven to be able to harm c'tan.
B) A final concentrated push could not have eliminated them. That's like saying a final concentrated push in afganistan could eliminate all the al-queida cells there. It is an entirely different matter to defeat an enemy than erradiate him altogether.
C) Your allies are your enemies as well



Yeah. A very trustworthy source there :smallwink:

I mean he is fricking called the "Deciever", its not out of character for him to.. decieve.

Every source of fluff supports this. He has no reason to lie anyways, the guy is obviously going to die, and by being truthful he is more likely to get truthful information out of him.



The old ones never had D cannons or wraithcannons? Because the C'Tan certainly did know about the warp. They knew it was a place theyhad no power over, and they knew it was very important to the old ones. They even started work on anti warp devices prior to the big eruption of chaos.

Page 26 of the codex, C'tan did not begin any great work to seal chaos from reality until the old ones fought back with psykers. Presumably at this point is where they were notified that the warp could be used as a weapon.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-06-27, 07:06 AM
Aww, we're still arguing about C'tan fluff? I wanted to hear someone explain how 40K could counter Teraport technology :smallfrown:

EDIT: particularly after I put together all those shiny links! Will all my internet labor be for naught!:smalltongue:

Oslecamo
2008-06-27, 07:47 AM
Your average SM would **** himself on his power armor when facing any one of the Tagon's Toughs grunts.


And that's why we're puting the necrons as the main frontline in this battle. Acording to the fluff, the necrons have countless warriors and reality warping artifacts laying dormant across the galaxy.

Necrons make SM **** off, so they should be able to go toe to toe with Schlockverse troops.

Did I mention the ones who make the SM **** are the basic warriors?

They don't need life suport because they're already dead, they're tough enough to simply refuse to be permanently destroyed by any but the heaviest known weapons, their own weapons tear apart time and space. I'm sure the necrons would give the Schlockverse a run for his money.

EDIT:Acording to the fluff, the reason the necrons still didn't crush the other races it's because they're not in a hurry, being already dead and all. Thus all atacks they made so far are just scouting missions with little numbers, to study their oponents and discover the best way of geting all those tasy souls to their gods. And even these little numbers demand the Emperium of man to send entire armies to repel them Heck, it is refered that a basic necron ship can go toe to toe with an entire imperial fleet.

Selrahc
2008-06-27, 08:49 AM
I'm just gonna cut out some extraneous stuff, like marines and whatnot.

Yeah, good idea.


He outsmarted the eldar, manipulated the imperium and played chaos like marionettes in the gothic war.

Fair point. He isn't entirely a fool. But he has had a mixed record, so relying on him to be able to come up with a miracle plan is very optimistic.


Which plans would you be refering to here.

The plan to kill the nightbringer. The device to disconnect the warp. The attempt to trap and kill Cypher. Just off the top of my head.


But it doesn't really matter, does it? It is virtually undoutable that the nightbringer was capable of destroying those planets after stripping them of their defenses, but why do so? Reasoning: Imperial fleets are capable of cracking planets apart using nothing but their conventional firepower. Dark angels fleet was able to destroy their homeworld while trading fire with entrenched anti-ship batteries. Necron tech and firepower is magnitudes greater, especially with c'tan on board.

But... that isn't the C'Tan... I was saying that I doubt the C'Tan is increasing the power of the fleet(Or killing planets on their own). Not saying that the fleet isn't very very powerful.


The necrons had stopped chasing the old ones and had turned against themselves. They could have simply kept fleeing, perhaps fled to another galaxy, ect. What happened here was that their creations spawned new creations which attacked them, and the c'tan were immune to. Sorta a backfire. They signed a death warrent when before it wasn't certain.



You're probably looking at a factor of hours (moments) for necrons and a factor of perhaps a year for the webway, while it takes decades for a ship of the imperium of man to travel across the galaxy.





Talismans of vaul were either made by a chaos god. The orks were just another product of their engineering, one that is only succesful because of their reproductive abilities (nothing to necrons which willingly wipe planets of life). Jokerao, in my opinion, are superior in ability. The old ones did not madden the outsider, the chaos laughing god did.

Eldar gods =/= old ones. Eldar gods were actual chaos entities.

Eldar Gods may in fact be the old ones. Its fairly unclear. Wiki cites Xenology as saying that they are the same.



A) Talismans of vaul were never proven to be able to harm c'tan.
B) A final concentrated push could not have eliminated them. That's like saying a final concentrated push in afganistan could eliminate all the al-queida cells there. It is an entirely different matter to defeat an enemy than erradiate him altogether.
C) Your allies are your enemies as well

A final concentrated push in Afghanistan could clear out all the Al Qaeda cells there. Its just that the concentrated push would be a solid march of soldiers from one end of the country to the other, shooting any living beings. Something that is both morally abbhorent and impractical for the military, but perfectly viable for the necrons. They have instant teleportation, if they ever find an old one they can cleanse them with overhwelming force.


Every source of fluff supports this. He has no reason to lie anyways, the guy is obviously going to die, and by being truthful he is more likely to get truthful information out of him.

Why is he more likely to get information if he is truthful? The guy would have no idea whhich statements are lies. In fact the deciever could make up a set of stories entirely untrue, but very likely to get information out of someone.

What other bits of fluff where you thinking about specifically?


Page 26 of the codex, C'tan did not begin any great work to seal chaos from reality until the old ones fought back with psykers. Presumably at this point is where they were notified that the warp could be used as a weapon.

But that is still way before the warp turns into a maelstrom.

sikyon
2008-06-27, 12:31 PM
Fair point. He isn't entirely a fool. But he has had a mixed record, so relying on him to be able to come up with a miracle plan is very optimistic.

He probably came up witht he plan to seal the warp from real space. I don't see what's wrong with that.


The plan to kill the nightbringer. The device to disconnect the warp. The attempt to trap and kill Cypher. Just off the top of my head.


I doubt he actually wanted to kill the nightbringer, and the device to disconnet the warp was stopped because the c'tan figured it'd be eaisier to just go to sleep instead. Perhaps it's eaisier fighting the imperium than a galaxy of enslavers. The great work (pylons on cadia) has been pretty effective. I mean a single planet of pylons is capable of resisting the eye of terror. That's pretty darn impressive.


Eldar Gods may in fact be the old ones. Its fairly unclear. Wiki cites Xenology as saying that they are the same.


Generally speaking they have never been old ones. Khaine was a warp entity (obviously) as is the sleeping god, as is the laughing god who the harliquins worship.


A final concentrated push in Afghanistan could clear out all the Al Qaeda cells there. Its just that the concentrated push would be a solid march of soldiers from one end of the country to the other, shooting any living beings. Something that is both morally abbhorent and impractical for the military, but perfectly viable for the necrons. They have instant teleportation, if they ever find an old one they can cleanse them with overhwelming force.

Would take too long. Not enough necrons. Remember, the number of necrons is limited to the populatin of a dying planet. The universe is VAST. What if the old ones ran into the webway, that's a huge space to explore, as is if they left to other galaxies. Furthermore necrons wouldn't waste all life as the c'tan WANT life.


Why is he more likely to get information if he is truthful? The guy would have no idea whhich statements are lies. In fact the deciever could make up a set of stories entirely untrue, but very likely to get information out of someone.

What other bits of fluff where you thinking about specifically?


Enslaver plauge suggests inability to hurt them in the fluff before 28. Also he has no reason to lie. The man is obviously confused, and if the deceiver wants to extract information, then he would try to get truthful information. If he inputs false information he will get false information. If he inputs true information he gets true infromation. The man seems willing to help. If not, he can be persuaded. The entire point is that you get what you put in. Tell a lie and you get a misconception.


But that is still way before the warp turns into a maelstrom.

So? The c'tan start the project after they find out the warp is a weapon, after they find out that there's this crazy dimension that they can't control.

Selrahc
2008-06-27, 06:52 PM
He probably came up witht he plan to seal the warp from real space. I don't see what's wrong with that.


It wasn't a completed plan. In fact it seems to have been aborted at a fairly early stage.

Seperating the Warp from real space is the C'Tans final victory. It means only they wan move around. It stops the enslaver plague. It cripples the old ones, and leaves any sentient race lacking that special something(Essentially becoming pariahs).

At one point, the Necrons are in control, to a large extent. Nothing is stopping them bringing the project to fruition if we believe what the Deciever says. So we're left with the question of why they didn't.

Final victory is just the completion of the project. After that they can sleep. Why sleep first and throw uncounted numbers of variables into the mix? Things like the Tyranids could threaten the C'Tans grip on the milky way, or if they had woken up later they might have found themselves the last beings in the galaxy, as the tyranids strip everything and move on. Or Chaos could have got even worse! They did nothing to stop the enslaver plague, and just kind of hoped for the best that they would be in a good position when they woke up.

It seems like a really shoddy plan to me.



I doubt he actually wanted to kill the nightbringer

Why? He killed other C'Tan. What makes the nightbringer an indispensable asset if the other C'Tan weren't?



I mean a single planet of pylons is capable of resisting the eye of terror. That's pretty darn impressive.

But it doewarpsn't do what the necrons wanted to do. The necrons didn't want to make a device to calm the warp. They wanted to remove all access. Warp travel is in fact especially easy around that area, which actually seems like a big failure in one respect. Obviously more testing was needed to get the devices working right.



Generally speaking they have never been old ones. Khaine was a warp entity (obviously) as is the sleeping god, as is the laughing god who the harliquins worship.

Wiki cites a source, you're giving a sort of general wishy washy statement.

Maybe the old ones were Warp entities. In part at least. Maybe that became more dominant over time. The old ones are masively steeped in mystery, so a definitive statement is not possible.



Would take too long. Not enough necrons. Remember, the number of necrons is limited to the populatin of a dying planet. The universe is VAST. What if the old ones ran into the webway, that's a huge space to explore, as is if they left to other galaxies. Furthermore necrons wouldn't waste all life as the c'tan WANT life.


They don't needx to annihilate all life. Look at the comparitive speeds(According to you). If the Necrons get a report of old one activity on a planet they can respond with overwhelming force at that one location, and be on the other side of the galaxy in mere hours. If the old one escapes then hes stuck in the webway doing nothing but travelling for years. Theres not too many old ones, and the C'Tan are already devastating star systems for fun.


Also he has no reason to lie.

Why not? What possible reason does he have to tell the truth? He can say whatever he wants and the guy will believe him, because that is what he does. And what are the odds that the truth happens to be the one story that he needs to tell to get the most benefit for himself?

I mean the guy loves to lie. He started out nwith a lie. His entire existence revolves around deceit. Expecting anything he says to be anything more than twisted trickery seems very out of character.

The enslavers were bad mojo. Intelligent on a frightening scale, and with massively powerful abilities. I don't think the C'Tan were at no risk whatsoever. Because at the very least the Enslavers could take over vast chunks of their own armies as loyal slaves.

Kane
2008-06-27, 09:46 PM
The Necrons are the Wesley. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWesley)

That said, I don't think the necrons are as god-like powerful as you guys make it out to be. I recently read the first four Ciaphas Cain books, (WH40K fluff, for the un-enlightened.) and, in the short story prelude to the second 'book', A Spacemarine force captures a Necron ship. A Necron ship IN ORBIT around a a tomb world. Connecting warp gates and what not. The SMs move in and wipe them out of their ship, incidentally saving Ciaphas in the process.

No, the Necrons do have unlimited numbers. When defeated, they vanish, all of them, even the destroyed ones, and are made into more bodies. While they only started out with the population of (Doomed, not dying. Difference.) world, they can almost certainly copy the minds into as many bodies as they need soldiers.

To my knowledge. Personally, I think the Schlock-verse would pwn 40K, necrons and all, but that's an opinion, and I can't really back it up. A gut feeling, if you will.

sikyon
2008-06-27, 09:48 PM
It wasn't a completed plan. In fact it seems to have been aborted at a fairly early stage.

Seperating the Warp from real space is the C'Tans final victory. It means only they wan move around. It stops the enslaver plague. It cripples the old ones, and leaves any sentient race lacking that special something(Essentially becoming pariahs).

At one point, the Necrons are in control, to a large extent. Nothing is stopping them bringing the project to fruition if we believe what the Deciever says. So we're left with the question of why they didn't.

Final victory is just the completion of the project. After that they can sleep. Why sleep first and throw uncounted numbers of variables into the mix? Things like the Tyranids could threaten the C'Tans grip on the milky way, or if they had woken up later they might have found themselves the last beings in the galaxy, as the tyranids strip everything and move on. Or Chaos could have got even worse! They did nothing to stop the enslaver plague, and just kind of hoped for the best that they would be in a good position when they woke up.

It seems like a really shoddy plan to me.



Ok:

They didn't start the project when they were in control because they didn't realize the warp could be used against them as a weapon. They started the project after the eldar attacked with psykers, a good plan. They had no reason to start it before as nobody really though tof using the warp as a weapon.

They didn't finish it because at that point they weren't in control anymore. They didn't have enough strength to win the war and construct all the pylons without having them blown up when their attention became divered. So they hibernated instead of struggling. Even if they did complete the plan the universe would be terribly lacking in life. Without the warp, races could not reseed the galaxy eaisily at all. Thus, sleep first, plan after galaxy is full of life.



Final victory is just the completion of the project. After that they can sleep. Why sleep first and throw uncounted numbers of variables into the mix? Things like the Tyranids could threaten the C'Tans grip on the milky way, or if they had woken up later they might have found themselves the last beings in the galaxy, as the tyranids strip everything and move on. Or Chaos could have got even worse! They did nothing to stop the enslaver plague, and just kind of hoped for the best that they would be in a good position when they woke up.


The universe is cyclical. Even if nids killed everything in the galaxy, they could have just slept longer until life came back again. C'tan are immortal. They slept for 65 million years, lived for billions of years before that. As long as there is carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen and energy there will eventually be life. Chaos cannot consume everything, because if it did then chaos would die as chaos is part of life. Chaos is cyclical as well (most obvious in nurgle). All things are cyclical, except the c'tan. They are inviolable, immortal, and have infinite patience.



Why? He killed other C'Tan. What makes the nightbringer an indispensable asset if the other C'Tan weren't?



He is one of the 4 left. That makes him important. Before htat, there were hundreds of c'tan.



Wiki cites a source, you're giving a sort of general wishy washy statement.


Xeonology is a black library publication, and as such any inconsistencies with primary fluff sources such as CODEXs are discounted. My citation: Eldar codex. They are litterally growing a new chaos god when spirit stones merge with the infinity matrix. Khaine is also clearly a warp entity.



Maybe the old ones were Warp entities. In part at least. Maybe that became more dominant over time. The old ones are masively steeped in mystery, so a definitive statement is not possible.

Impossible. The warp has never been itself alive until sentient souls gave it life. Old ones were first biological life. They were also physical as they were not immortal, only supremly long lived. Old ones are to eldar what eldar are to people. Again, black library is a secondary source, which is to be discarded if it conflicts with a primary source, such as codex's.


They don't needx to annihilate all life. Look at the comparitive speeds(According to you). If the Necrons get a report of old one activity on a planet they can respond with overwhelming force at that one location, and be on the other side of the galaxy in mere hours. If the old one escapes then hes stuck in the webway doing nothing but travelling for years. Theres not too many old ones, and the C'Tan are already devastating star systems for fun.

You can build cities in the webway. Furthermore, too many planets for necrons to get reports from. There probably arn't even enough necrons for 1 to be on every planet.



Why not? What possible reason does he have to tell the truth? He can say whatever he wants and the guy will believe him, because that is what he does. And what are the odds that the truth happens to be the one story that he needs to tell to get the most benefit for himself?

I mean the guy loves to lie. He started out nwith a lie. His entire existence revolves around deceit. Expecting anything he says to be anything more than twisted trickery seems very out of character.



No. You don't understand. If I have a person, and I'm asking him questions, but in order to anwser my questions he needs anwsers from me, then am I going to lie to him? Of course not. If I feed him lies he will take them as the truth and output lies back to me. If I tell him lies he will output the truth back to me. This isn't about manipulating the person into telling me whatever I want to know. He's going to do that willingly or unwillingly.

I'd also like you to show me where you get this idea enslavers can hurt c'tan. I find that about as likely as daemonic possesion of c'tan.


The enslavers were bad mojo. Intelligent on a frightening scale, and with massively powerful abilities. I don't think the C'Tan were at no risk whatsoever. Because at the very least the Enslavers could take over vast chunks of their own armies as loyal slaves.

C'tan can just blast taken over parts and they reform on nearby ships. Besides, c'tan don't relaly care about necrons. c'tan are virtually unharmable

btw I will be alway for 4 days for the long weekend (canada) so, yeah.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-06-27, 10:02 PM
I continue to be unmoved by the debate over C'Tan/Necron fluff. :smallannoyed:

Remember the Schlockverse? Aside from the Inertialess Drive and C'Tan intervention, the Necrons lack a conceivable block against the terapedo, which kind of minimizes their ability to be the last, best hope for the 40K universe. Additionally, it is not at all clear that the Inertialess Drive would interfere with the teraport sufficiently to protect those ships from terapedoes. At best, the drive would save the ships while they're zipping around the universe, but as soon as they stop to do something, they'd be dead.

Also, it should be noted that in addition to powerful gravy weapons, the Schlockverse has powerful, and portable, plasma weapons. Since plasma is a great way to take out Necrons, this is another strike against them in any sort of land engagement - not that those would be necessary.

Yes, the C'Tan, being physical gods, probably are able to resist standard Schlockverse tactics, though I give them long odds at being able to take down the Fleetmind.

So, anyone still want to actually debate the versus part of this thread? :smalltongue:

The Bushranger
2008-06-27, 10:39 PM
Although I give Corporal Pi credit. He'll probably destroy the entire Warhammer 40k universe. In an accident.

That's Lieutenant Pibald to you. :smalltongue:
Nevertheless you, sir, win the Internet.

NightHaunter
2008-11-05, 05:58 PM
An emerging array of teraport packets that are hit by a coherent beam weapon, or a lance weapon, can end up as partially complete or splattered across five dimensions as a cloud of nanoscopic black holes. Here (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/d/20010811.html)

So a teraporting weapon or ship hit by a lance battery is damaged or destroyed.

The main advantage of the teraport is that it allows you to move out of the way of nova cannons. A 40k ship manouvers on thruster and follows common inertia. A teraport ship can jump around. With VDA nodes and Hypernet you have faster than light launch detection allowing you to get out of the way. By carefully jumping outside the 40k ships firing arc you can easily take them down with conventional beam weapons and torpedos while avoiding any real danger.

Even if the 40k shields block teraports, think of the opportunity the Schllockverse ship has for saturation mining space around the 40k ship. Even if some or indeed most mines are destroyed emerging I seem to remember a sequence where Schlockverse fleet command considered a 90+% loss of terapedoes to be worthwhile as produsing more is very cheap.

And to the C'tan, I would try a hostile teraport on it to ringt in my gunsight and splatter the emerging array.

BRC
2008-11-05, 06:02 PM
Woah, this thread is, like, five months old...

Anyway, it's generally assumed that Schlock Mercenary wins because of
1) Gravy Guns
2) The Teraport
3) Petey
4) Gate-copy mechanisms.

There are alot of IG's right?
Schlockverse could take it's best soliders and/or combat robots, give them the best gear available and gate-clone/copy them until they outnumber the IG.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-11-06, 01:31 AM
So a teraporting weapon or ship hit by a lance battery is damaged or destroyed.

The main advantage of the teraport is that it allows you to move out of the way of nova cannons. A 40k ship manouvers on thruster and follows common inertia. A teraport ship can jump around. With VDA nodes and Hypernet you have faster than light launch detection allowing you to get out of the way. By carefully jumping outside the 40k ships firing arc you can easily take them down with conventional beam weapons and torpedos while avoiding any real danger.

Even if the 40k shields block teraports, think of the opportunity the Schllockverse ship has for saturation mining space around the 40k ship. Even if some or indeed most mines are destroyed emerging I seem to remember a sequence where Schlockverse fleet command considered a 90+% loss of terapedoes to be worthwhile as produsing more is very cheap.

And to the C'tan, I would try a hostile teraport on it to ringt in my gunsight and splatter the emerging array.

So, a few things:
(1) The main advantage of the Teraport is being able to teleport conversion bombs into the belly of an enemy ship. Unless the Imperium bathes their ships' interiors with lasers, coherent beam weapons just aren't going to help.

And you try targeting micro black holes :smalltongue:

(2) Thread Necromancy!
http://www.game-warden.com/starfox/Non_SF_related_stuff/JS47/Thread_Necromancy.jpg

I love that image :smalltongue:

Talkkno
2008-11-06, 02:31 AM
What can they do when the Emperor starts throwing hundred of light years wide holes in the warp?

Ganurath
2008-11-06, 02:56 AM
How I see it going:

1. Petey sets up watch drones.
2. Imperium probes the portal, hails Petey, Petey says hello in his usual manner. Imperium decides to f**k with Petey, because he's an alien and a heretic.
3. Imperium finds out that they can't use warp travel in the Schlockverse and back off for now.
4. The Deceiver takes note of the Schlockverse and decides to get involved. They start off with Necron fleets destroying Petey's probes. Petey retorts with Extortionater battleships. Hilarity insues, and the Deceiver runs off with his tail between his legs as Petey replaces his probes.
5. The Eldar pop in, check to make sure Petey won't screw up their plans, then pop back out.
6. The Tau eventually catch word of this rift, and pop in. Petey likes the Tau, and is persuaded to teraport them to nearby planets so long as they don't get violent. The Tau soon acquire and reverse-engineer teraport technology and gravy-tech before heading back home.
7. The Tau start mass producing Schlockverse technology, which they begin using to tear the Imperium a new one, and smack the Tyranid fleet back with the might of gravy guns.
8. The Eldar pop back in, very much distressed with Petey's actions, and try to get the technology as well. Petey gives the Eldar the same deal he gave the Tau, but they are less successful, as their egos thwart negociations.
9. Schlockverse humans eventually investigate the portal, see all the crap going on in Hammerspace, and back the f**k off.
10. As the Tau campaign continues, some Magnificent Bastard in the Schlockverse kindly points the portal out to the O'bben. This is very much convenient, as the Orks are starting to come through at the same time. Through superior tech, O'bben press through.
11. After a few pitched battles, the Tau eventually find a way to brainwash the O'bben to their favor. Hilarity ensues, and Petey jawdrops as the O'bben give up their ear piercings and pretentious ship titles in favor of the Greater Good.
12. The Obben begin campaigning for the Greater Good in the Schlockverse, which appeals to more than a few races, as well as some humans that could be better off. Suprisingly, none of the Gaves are game.
13. With the help of their new allies, the Tau learn the difference between Schlockverse humans and Hammerspace humans that eliminates the psychic potential, and begin using a pheramon to unleash it upon human worlds. The Chaos Gods get royally POed by this, and try to stop it.
14. However, the Eldar like the Chaos Gods losing their power, and coordinate with the Alliance of the Greater Good to hold off the Chaos tide until the Cadian Gate's power is eventually broken.
15. With Chaos defeated, the Necrons rise up in full force. The Nightbringer even shows up at one of the fights... And is promptly gravied. Necron deathworlds are soon located and gravied.
16. The Greater Good then targets the Orks and Tyranids, fighting a war of containment as the work on developing a way to make the former docile. Unable to do so, they just release a new chemical weapon, this time rendering the Orks sterile, and the species is soon rendered extinct by infighting.
17. The UNS tried to oppose the slow yet steady development of the Greater Good upon hearing how it has all but conquered the other galaxy. This increases conversion by several orders of magnitude.
18. After the Eldar defeat their Dark brethren and the Imperium finally surrenders with the loss of the Emperor to psychic impotence, the Tau negociate a deal with Petey: We'll take care of Andromeda, and in exchange you get the UNS to join the Greater Good.
19. Both ends of the deal are fulfilled. The Greater Good then tries to convert Petey, but instead are subverted by him, and he removes all those suspicious elements that make the Tau bad enough for a Grimdark galaxy.
20. Everybody wins.

Talkkno
2008-11-06, 03:14 AM
The Necrons are the Wesley. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWesley)

That said, I don't think the necrons are as god-like powerful as you guys make it out to be. I recently read the first four Ciaphas Cain books, (WH40K fluff, for the un-enlightened.) and, in the short story prelude to the second 'book', A Spacemarine force captures a Necron ship. A Necron ship IN ORBIT around a a tomb world. Connecting warp gates and what not. The SMs move in and wipe them out of their ship, incidentally saving Ciaphas in the process.

No, the Necrons do have unlimited numbers. When defeated, they vanish, all of them, even the destroyed ones, and are made into more bodies. While they only started out with the population of (Doomed, not dying. Difference.) world, they can almost certainly copy the minds into as many bodies as they need soldiers.

To my knowledge. Personally, I think the Schlock-verse would pwn 40K, necrons and all, but that's an opinion, and I can't really back it up. A gut feeling, if you will.

In Cain's Last Stand a single Jackel defeated a entire Chaos floatia

BRC
2008-11-06, 06:41 PM
How I see it going:

1. Petey sets up watch drones.
2. Imperium probes the portal, hails Petey, Petey says hello in his usual manner. Imperium decides to f**k with Petey, because he's an alien and a heretic.
3. Imperium finds out that they can't use warp travel in the Schlockverse and back off for now.
4. The Deceiver takes note of the Schlockverse and decides to get involved. They start off with Necron fleets destroying Petey's probes. Petey retorts with Extortionater battleships. Hilarity insues, and the Deceiver runs off with his tail between his legs as Petey replaces his probes.
5. The Eldar pop in, check to make sure Petey won't screw up their plans, then pop back out.
6. The Tau eventually catch word of this rift, and pop in. Petey likes the Tau, and is persuaded to teraport them to nearby planets so long as they don't get violent. The Tau soon acquire and reverse-engineer teraport technology and gravy-tech before heading back home.
7. The Tau start mass producing Schlockverse technology, which they begin using to tear the Imperium a new one, and smack the Tyranid fleet back with the might of gravy guns.
8. The Eldar pop back in, very much distressed with Petey's actions, and try to get the technology as well. Petey gives the Eldar the same deal he gave the Tau, but they are less successful, as their egos thwart negociations.
9. Schlockverse humans eventually investigate the portal, see all the crap going on in Hammerspace, and back the f**k off.
10. As the Tau campaign continues, some Magnificent Bastard in the Schlockverse kindly points the portal out to the O'bben. This is very much convenient, as the Orks are starting to come through at the same time. Through superior tech, O'bben press through.
11. After a few pitched battles, the Tau eventually find a way to brainwash the O'bben to their favor. Hilarity ensues, and Petey jawdrops as the O'bben give up their ear piercings and pretentious ship titles in favor of the Greater Good.
12. The Obben begin campaigning for the Greater Good in the Schlockverse, which appeals to more than a few races, as well as some humans that could be better off. Suprisingly, none of the Gaves are game.
13. With the help of their new allies, the Tau learn the difference between Schlockverse humans and Hammerspace humans that eliminates the psychic potential, and begin using a pheramon to unleash it upon human worlds. The Chaos Gods get royally POed by this, and try to stop it.
14. However, the Eldar like the Chaos Gods losing their power, and coordinate with the Alliance of the Greater Good to hold off the Chaos tide until the Cadian Gate's power is eventually broken.
15. With Chaos defeated, the Necrons rise up in full force. The Nightbringer even shows up at one of the fights... And is promptly gravied. Necron deathworlds are soon located and gravied.
16. The Greater Good then targets the Orks and Tyranids, fighting a war of containment as the work on developing a way to make the former docile. Unable to do so, they just release a new chemical weapon, this time rendering the Orks sterile, and the species is soon rendered extinct by infighting.
17. The UNS tried to oppose the slow yet steady development of the Greater Good upon hearing how it has all but conquered the other galaxy. This increases conversion by several orders of magnitude.
18. After the Eldar defeat their Dark brethren and the Imperium finally surrenders with the loss of the Emperor to psychic impotence, the Tau negociate a deal with Petey: We'll take care of Andromeda, and in exchange you get the UNS to join the Greater Good.
19. Both ends of the deal are fulfilled. The Greater Good then tries to convert Petey, but instead are subverted by him, and he removes all those suspicious elements that make the Tau bad enough for a Grimdark galaxy.
20. Everybody wins.
Except that the OP mentioned that Petey was sitting this fight out.

Notice that he did NOT mention the Paan'uri, which because this is a universe vs Universe type of thing, means they are with Schlockverse...

Eldan
2008-11-06, 07:04 PM
On the other hand, I think the Eldar would pretty much hate psychic power failing in the Hammerverse... all their tech is built around it, which means, their ships would fail, including craftworlds.

Ganurath
2008-11-06, 10:45 PM
Except that the OP mentioned that Petey was sitting this fight out.

Notice that he did NOT mention the Paan'uri, which because this is a universe vs Universe type of thing, means they are with Schlockverse...Emphasis mine. The OP also said Petey would be defending himself as neccesary. As for the Paan'uri, the only Warhammer faction that'd be interested in them are the Necrons, and their killing spree wouldn't get far enough because regenerating metal is no match for being gravied into a singularity and the dark matter entities are in a whole different galaxy.
On the other hand, I think the Eldar would pretty much hate psychic power failing in the Hammerverse... all their tech is built around it, which means, their ships would fail, including craftworlds.Actually, the pheremone used only gets rid of the psychic abilities of humans.