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Glyde
2008-06-19, 09:48 PM
Our fairly old 2e campaign is on route to converting to 3.5 after the current story arc is resolved. My character is going to be the hardest to carry over, though, as I'm currently playing a Blade (Bard kit)

My thoughts are currently focused on a lot of fighter levels and possibly a couple levels in wizard. Right now I'm just having trouble looking through all the books for feats - Any suggestions or things I absolutely *need* for dual wielding to be remotely effective would be great. I have access to nearly all the books. Suggestions? :D

Dual Strike and Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting are already on the list. He uses Longswords.



As an aside, are their any rules for defensive and offensive spin in 3.5, or will I have to homebrew that?

Solo
2008-06-19, 09:57 PM
Tell us what your character does, and what you want him to do.

Offhand, I suggest a Rogue for TWF + Sneak Attack, or a Bard with TWF + Dragonfire Inspiration (And Snowflake Wardance. Possibly some Song of the Heart with a little BoED cheese thrown in)

Dual Strike and OTWF are not worth it. Someone will come along shortly to tell you why.

Glyde
2008-06-19, 10:02 PM
Ah. He's chaotic evil, so BoED is out of the question entirely.

What I'm trying to go for is to replicate the amazing dual wielding capabilities that Blades did before, which is why I was thinking fighter for bonus feats to burn to make dual wielding better. He's currently eighth level, though conversion may happen at ninth.

The thing about Blade's was that their performances were done with weapons, not song, and did different things than a normal bard song. I haven't seen anything like that in any 3.5 book - though I could be wrong.


Also, I'd be willing to hear why DS isn't worth it, but oversized is needed for flavor reasons. Unless there are longswords that can get by the penalties, of course.

Solo
2008-06-19, 10:04 PM
The thing about Blade's was that their performances were done with weapons, not song, and did different things than a normal bard song. I haven't seen anything like that in any 3.5 book - though I could be wrong.

Perform: Dance (Sword Dance)

Albonor
2008-06-19, 10:14 PM
Since I think you want to change the character as little as possible, I suggest the Prestige Bard from Unearted Arcana. You will need a couple levels in wizard (2), at least a level of rogue (preferably the first) to gain perform as a class skill once and put the 2 levels left in fighter.

You need to put 4 ranks in a perform skill (preferably poetry or oratory if you want to use both longswords in battle but dance is kinda preferable) and 4 ranks in knowledge (local), and then buy yourself 1 rank in the perform skill for every level to come. Choose three spells from divination, enchantment and illusion for your wizard levels and voilą!

Oh, and you cannot be lawful of course but being CE...

Oversize TWF is mandatory as you said (level 1), as is twf (level 3) itself and combat expertise (human? needs 13 intel) because of your light armor (not optimal but follows the concept).

If you want to go for the whirlwind of death, the go for Dervish from Complete fighter. It is what you are looking for. You will need a few ranks in tumble (easy with rogue and prestige bard levels) as well as dodge, mobility (fighter levels 1 and 2) and as weapon focus (longsword) (character level 6)

EDIT: Ninja'd?

Solo
2008-06-19, 10:16 PM
You may want to look at this build (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=57936), but replace Sound of Silence, Haunting Melody, and Versetile Performer with some good TWF feats, and Song of the Heart.

TWF is generally considered weak compared to THF unless you have a good soruce of extra damage, such as Sneak Attack. As a bard, you can buff up yoursel fand allies to get large to hit and damage bonii, then charge in, Snowflake Wardance for a great to hit bonus, and Power Attack for more damage.




Oversize TWF is mandatory as you said, as is twf itself and twdefense because of your light armor (not optimal but follows the concept).
Displacement

Albonor
2008-06-19, 11:03 PM
Displacement

True, true...very true. But if it is about optimizing a melee bard, than we are into quite another thread no?

Solo
2008-06-19, 11:06 PM
True, true...very true. But if it is about optimizing a melee bard, than we are into quite another thread no?

Castong one spell off the bard's spell list is hardly optimizing.

And I think we are dealing with a sort of bard character here.

I'm currently playing a Blade (Bard kit)

RTGoodman
2008-06-19, 11:12 PM
For what it's worth, some supplement (I believe Complete Warrior, though it might be something else) had a Perform (Weapon Drill) skill, so I guess that's a precedent. I think it said you couldn't use it for bard abilities, but you might be able to use it to convince your DM to make a special exception (since that's basically what this character seems to be about anyway).

Mark Hall
2008-06-20, 02:31 AM
I've actually given thought to this. To make a blade, I'd use a pure bard base, with some changes.

First of all, the Blade's perform skill is going to be "Perform: Weapon Drill". Remove "Decipher Script" and replace it with "Intimidate".

Remove Bardic Knowledge, replace it with the following two feats: Precise Shot, Two-weapon Fighting. A blade does not need to meet the prerequisites for either feat for either feat.

Remove Countersong. Replace it with "Dance of Fear", an ability to make opponents shaken with Perform: Weapon Drill; the same restrictions are on this ability as with fascinate, but they are shaken for the entire performance, plus 1 round/level of the Blade after contact is broken (i.e. when the fight starts). This requires a use of Bardic Music.

Remove Inspire Competence. Replace it with "Dance of Blades"; a Blade may use a Perform check (and a use of Bardic Music) in place of an attack roll in a standard action.

Remove Suggestion. Replace with "Dance of Fear". A Blade may use a Perform check (and a use of Bardic Music) to Cause Fear (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/causeFear.htm) in a number of targets equal to the number he can fascinate. The DC of the Will save is equal to the Perform check.

Remove Song of Freedom. Replace with "Greater Dance of Blades". A Blade may use Bardic Music to replace all attacks in a full attack action with individual Perform checks.

Remove Mass Suggestion. A Blade may make a full attack action (using his normal BAB, enhanced by neither Dance of Blades or its Greater version) to cast Slay Living on a single target, with a DC equal to his Perform check. This requires a use of Bardic Music, and the attack must succeed and cause at least 1 point of damage.

Spell list changes:
Remove
0-Summon Instrument
1-Comprehend Languages, Erase
2-Tongues
3-Illusory Script, Secret Page

Add
0-Guidance
1-Magic Weapon, True Strike
2-Align Weapon
3-Greater Magic Weapon, Keen Edge

AslanCross
2008-06-20, 05:51 AM
If you have access to the Tome of Battle, I'd suggest a Bard/Warblade multiclass. The Warblade has stances, which I think mirror Offensive and Defensive Spin well enough. (Namely Punishing Stance for Offensive and a whole bunch for Defensive.)

Bard/Warblade would work well as a commander-type character, as the White Raven discipline capitalizes off boosting your allies' actions (allowing them to move when it isn't their turn, etc.) There's also the Song of the White Raven feat, which adds your Warblade and Bard levels so that your bardsong isn't weakened (much) by multiclassing. It only works for Inspire Courage, though.

Then of course, there's also Snowflake Wardance.

The feat Chaos Music also helps mitigate the issues you'd get from multiclassing.

EDIT again: The Tiger Claw discipline, which you'll also have access to, provides a lot of very good TWF maneuvers. (The most basic of which will let you hit with both weapons as a standard action, obviating the need for the Dual Strike feat).

Glyde
2008-06-20, 08:07 AM
I'd like to thank everyone for their suggestions - I'll be going over them with my DM after class today. Mark Hall's modified Bard sounds really cool.

ToB came to mind a few times, but I was kind of hesitant at first. I'd have to give warblade another once over.

Thanks again! :D

Chronos
2008-06-20, 01:15 PM
For what it's worth, some supplement (I believe Complete Warrior, though it might be something else) had a Perform (Weapon Drill) skill, so I guess that's a precedent.To make it even better, it gets bonuses from a variety of combat feats, many of which you'll probably be taking anyway.

Glyde
2008-06-20, 05:21 PM
Alright, I think the decision is Fighter 4 / Blade (Mark Hall's variant) X

I was pondering warblade 6, but that would be dipping too far in for what I want.

1: TWF / OTWF
2: Improved Buckler Defense
3: Weapon Focus (Longsword)
4: Weapon Specialization (Longsword)
6: Dual Strike
9: Imp TWF


Sound good so far? Any changes that someone would make?

Mark Hall
2008-06-20, 11:51 PM
When I was retyping my Blade ideas (and I just realized I called two things "Dance of Fear"; need to fix that), I kept thinking that ToB would work great with this character. I think that getting rid of Fighter 4, and making it Warblade 4 would give you a lot better start for the character. Going White Raven makes you a combat leader; Tiger Claw makes you really flashy. Song of the White Raven would synergize you well. I might even make it Warblade 6 if you really want Longsword specialization (especially since that could turn into ANY weapon specialization on any given day).

EDIT: Posted the article to The Cranky Gamer

Glyde
2008-06-21, 04:01 PM
Warblade 6 is very tempting, especially because the character has 17 int. (13 str, 17 dex, 15 con, 17 int, 7 wis, 18 cha). It's a definite possibility. The reason I wanted the fighter levels was because of the bonus feats - Though I guess dual strike isn't needed so much if I have levels in warblade. I'll have to run it by my DM and see if he'll let me use ToB stuff.

Also I noticed the 'dance of fear' thing. I renamed the first one to Dance of Presence

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-06-22, 11:52 AM
One issue I see is that the Blade was a LOT nastier in combat with TWF, simply because of how 2e two-weapon fighting specialization went. Basically, it literally doubled your number of attacks, which was pretty sick.

May I point you in the direction of the Tempest PrC? Sure, it's not nearly as powerful as some, but you get OTWF, and eventually completely negate penalties for TWFing. If you can convince your GM to use the 3.0 version, you also get Perfect TWF, which lets you get an offhand attack every time you make an attack with your primary hand. That pretty much sums up what a Blade did in melee, ne?

So, Bard/Warblade/Tempest?

Matthew
2008-06-22, 12:11 PM
One issue I see is that the Blade was a LOT nastier in combat with TWF, simply because of how 2e two-weapon fighting specialization went. Basically, it literally doubled your number of attacks, which was pretty sick.

Negatory. You only ever got one extra attack from fighting with two weapons in 2e; lots of people ignored this (including some designers), but the rule was clear and it was never modified.

In 1e the rule was less clear.

Falrin
2008-06-22, 01:04 PM
What about the Dervish? (CW)

2 Fighter/ 4 Bard / Dervish
2 Blackguard/ Bard / Dervish
7 Bard / Dervish


Feats:


1 Combat Exp
1 Dodge
1 Mobility
2 Weapon Focus (Scimi)
3 Snowflake Wardance
6 TWF
9 Improved Crit (Or get them keen)
9 Spring Attack (bonus)
12 Improved TWF

Depending on your amount of casting: Arcane Strike might work instead of Improved Crit.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-06-22, 01:10 PM
What about the Dervish? (CW)

2 Fighter/ 4 Bard / Dervish
2 Blackguard/ Bard / Dervish
7 Bard / Dervish


Feats:


1 Combat Exp
1 Dodge
1 Mobility
2 Weapon Focus (Scimi)
3 Snowflake Wardance
6 TWF
9 Improved Crit (Or get them keen)
9 Spring Attack (bonus)
12 Improved TWF

Depending on your amount of casting: Arcane Strike might work instead of Improved Crit.

Only one problem: He wants to use paired longswords, which he can't use with Dervish. Well, technically he could, but he couldn't use any of the class abilities which makes Dervish worth taking, which kinda defeats the purpose.

Glyde
2008-06-22, 01:24 PM
Where is the Tempest PRC?

Also, I went Warblade 5 / Blade 3 - Next level going into Warblade then the rest into Blade (Unless Tempest is really cool or something XD)

Falrin
2008-06-22, 01:38 PM
Only one problem: He wants to use paired longswords, which he can't use with Dervish. Well, technically he could, but he couldn't use any of the class abilities which makes Dervish worth taking, which kinda defeats the purpose.


The difference between scimitars & longswords is just a litlle fluff.

1) Change Dervish Fluff a little, use longswords.

2) Change the scimitar fluff a little, keep crunch, call them longswords.

3) Change your character fluff a litlle, two big swords, a litlle bend this time.

Not that hard, unless you have a stuburn DM.


And Tempest is not worth taking. Small extras that can gained with 5 LvLs in fighter. And that says a lot.

Glyde
2008-06-22, 01:57 PM
I think dervish is out of the question right now. Warblade / Bard variant is the best course of action for what I want to accomplish.

Also, scimitars are a no-no for me. Longswords have a place in my heart Remember, this character is incredibly old and has been played a lot, so I'm attached to how he is. I don't want converting to 3.5 to completely change how he's been played in the past - and that includes fluff.

Falrin
2008-06-22, 02:00 PM
Double Post