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Executor
2008-06-20, 02:55 PM
I found a book yesterday that I thought I had lost. It was an old book from my childhood which profoundly changed the way I looked and thought about the world. It was called Black Ships before Troy. It was written by Rosemary Sutcliffe and beautifully illustrated by Alan Lee. This book brought home to me through Alan Lee's art what Homer's words could only ever do before: The epic nature of the myth of Troy. Earlier that day I had watched the extended cut of Return of the King, in particular the Siege of Minas Tirith. One could say a lot of things about Peter Jackson's direction, but up until the arrival of the Army of the Dead, the Siege of Minas Tirith was Jackson's magnum opus of a battle scene. Light, sound and awesome scale blending together to make an epic scene worthy of Homer. This got to me thinking... if we pitted the hosts of Greece against the armies of Mordor on that field of Pelennor, who would be victorious?

Let's begin with the size of the armies. Homer's Catalogue of Ships gives the size of the Greek (or Archaean) fleet as 1,186 ships. The precise number of men on each ship is not given other than for the Boeotians, who have 120 men per ship. If each ship has 120 fighting men on it, then the Greek host numbers 142,320 soldiers from the whole of Greece. They will have archers from Crete, slingers from Rhodes, hoplites from Athens and Sparta, charioteers from Mycenae. Homer divides the Greek force into 29 divisions, which works out to roughly 4,000 men a division. They are led by 46 captains, each a hero in his own regard. But the most prominent of these captains are Agamemnon, Odysseus, Diomedes, Ajax of Salamis, Ajax of Telamon, Menelaus, and Achilles. Tolkien gives no hard numbers for the size of the Mordor army at the Pelennor, so we are forced to go with Jackson's number of roughly 250,000 Orcs and Evil Men.

The battlefield is the only plain in Middle-Earth big enough to accomadate these armies, the Pelennor Fields. We shall suppose that the Greek fleet was lost in a freak-storm while on the way to Troy, and that supernatural storm sent their fleet across worlds and to the shores of Gondor. There Agamemnon, the King of all the Greeks, met and made a pact with Gandalf. The White Wizard sensed the great force entering Middle-Earth, and so he was there with Pippin when the entire glittering host landed near the mouth of the Anduin. Leaving their ships beached, the Greeks marched north for many days, at Gandalf's urgings, and encamped themselves upon the Plain of the Pelennor, beneath the walls of Minas Tirith. When the Witch-King's army came out of the Morgul Vale and crossed the River, the Greek host formed itself for battle opposite the armies of Mordor.

So the Greeks are fighting with their backs to the wall, literally. The Gondorrim within the city will not be offering their aide in anything more than archer support from the walls. The Rohirrim will most likely not be arriving and the Army of the Dead thing from Jackson's film... that quite simply won't happen at all. For purposes of comparison, we will suppose that the will of the Greek heroes like Odysseus or Ajax is on par with the will of the Nazgul. Achilles' will can contend with the Witch King's directly. In terms of mythic aide, the goddess Athena may lend a small helping hand here or there with the right advice whispered into the right ear at the right time, or a small boost of morale at the right time, but she will not partake directly in the fighting. Mostly this battle is a clash between the forces of Greece and those of Mordor. So, who will win?

puppyavenger
2008-06-20, 03:05 PM
do the nazgul know how to kill Achilles? because if not the Greeks win, otherwise bronze age<medieval

Djinn_in_Tonic
2008-06-20, 03:37 PM
do the nazgul know how to kill Achilles? because if not the Greeks win, otherwise bronze age<medieval

One man does not an army make. If Achilles survives but the Greeks are defeated, he can't single-handedly hope to overtake them...he's not that much of a super-human.

That said, I can see this going to the Greeks.

As seen from the Illiad, the Greeks are very adept at creating fortifications in a short time period: the Trojan's sea wall stands until the son of Zeus himself knocks down the gate using a rock that twelve men couldn't lift. They are skilled warriors, and the death of a comrade or leader only makes them fight with more ferocity and resolve to protect the body.

Additionally, they have Achilles (the best warrior of the time, and practically invincible to boot), Odysseus (an incredible warrior and one of the world's greatest tacticians), and Diomedes (the only man in the Illiad to single-handedly defeat two gods, including the GOD OF WAR!).

So they have incredible ground troops, backed by incredible leaders (Odysseus and Agamemnon [who, despite his attitude in the Illiad, proves to be quite capable on the battlefield]). Meanwhile, the Mordor forces are never shown as being truly organized or inspired in the same way, and, while they have better gear (due to the more recent time period--exceptions include the Illiad's numerous God-crafted arms and armor), I think the Greeks have this one in the bag.

Hung Lo
2008-06-20, 05:14 PM
Executor - for a Vs. thread, you have laid out the case for this confrontation very intelligently - bravo! :smallsmile:

Tengu
2008-06-20, 06:50 PM
The only problems Greeks might face is that all of them are men - who will be able to defeat the Witch King?

Djinn_in_Tonic
2008-06-20, 07:34 PM
The only problems Greeks might face is that all of them are men - who will be able to defeat the Witch King?

Well, he's pretty invincible to the Greeks, but Achilles is pretty invincible to the Mordor forces, so I'd say these two cancel each other out pretty well. Also, the Greeks did bring women with them, and thus these would be included in the forces at Troy (albeit most of them were captives, but in the face of Mordor's armies I'm sure even these would fight.). Additionally, as I seem to recall a few families being brought along (not 100% sure...I'd have to re-read it), Spartan women had some rudimentary training in warfare, so the Witch King might not be that invincible.

Steven the Lich
2008-06-20, 08:49 PM
I believe that the greeks would need a massive army to siege Troy. They also are trained more than the orcs. However, we must face a few problems.
1) Mordor is extremely numerous. I believe that in the movie, every single mile had a camp, and that dotted the region.
2) Witch King is nigh invincible to the greeks, and would be more of a match for Achilles. The greeks have no magic, so its impossible to dispel his protection which turns weapons to ash and limps the arms of men who touch him. I don't doubt Achilles strength, but I do question how effective he can be against a being like the WK.
3) Trolls... big... bulkish... They can likely smash open Troys gates in minutes. Mordor has plenty of them to boot. Not much hope there.
4) Achilles weakness is in the heel, but the orcs are pretty sharp sighted and if informed could shoot.

The things the greeks so have working are...
1)Tactics. Ulysses.
2) Spartans... duh.
3)Achilles.
4)Gods (only what they did during the war at least)

Thats it. At least, what comes to mind now.
Enlighten me so I may make better judgement.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2008-06-20, 08:55 PM
3) Trolls... big... bulkish... They can likely smash open Troys gates in minutes. Mordor has plenty of them to boot. Not much hope there.

And the Greek heroes could, according to the Illiad, perform feats of strength that twelve modern men couldn't equal. I think wrestling a Troll to the ground is well within the capabilities of some of them.


4) Achilles weakness is in the heel, but the orcs are pretty sharp sighted and if informed could shoot.

And the Witch King's weakness is women. If the Greeks knew that, there would be some women on the battlefield. Odysseus would see to that.


The things the greeks so have working are...
1)Tactics. Ulysses.

If you mean Odysseus, then yes.


2) Spartans... duh.

Not as much of a "win button" as you would think, but I suspect they could take on some Orcs without much trouble.

Also, here's something to consider. We see Aragon, a trained warrior without any special supernatural powers, slaughter tons of orcs, correct? Now let's take Ajax, or Agamemnon, or Achilles, or Diomedes, or any of at least twenty such heroes. Each dispatches MORE SOLDIERS THAN WE SEE ARAGON FIGHT ORCS. And these are trained soldiers, most likely at least almost as good with their respective weapons as Aragon is with his. So some simple multiplication gets us...massive orc slaughter. :smallbiggrin:

Sorry...I go to a college that focuses heavily on the ancient literature, and so I must adamantly support my Greek comrades. :smallbiggrin:

TheElfLord
2008-06-20, 10:05 PM
I don't really have much to say on the battle, though I think the pure numbers of the orcs would tell in the end.

I have to second the love for the book Black Ships Before Troy. I loved that when I was younger and checked it out from the library several times. It was my first introduction to the art of Alan Lee, and instilled by love of his artwork. When I heard he was helping with the LotR movies, I thought back to BSBT and was rather excited. Thanks for reminding me of a great book from my childhood.

Tyrant
2008-06-20, 10:37 PM
And the Greek heroes could, according to the Illiad, perform feats of strength that twelve modern men couldn't equal. I think wrestling a Troll to the ground is well within the capabilities of some of them.
I could easily believe the trolls as depicted are stronger than 12 men. Not to mention, it won't take more than 1 or 2 hits from them to kill basically anyone. In fact they are likely to hit several men in one swing.

And if smashing gates is an issue, don't bother with trolls. They have Grond and it will destroy any gate they put before it.

And the Witch King's weakness is women. If the Greeks knew that, there would be some women on the battlefield. Odysseus would see to that.
His weakness isn't women. It wasn't a "you are immune to everything but this" prophecy. It was a "this is how you will die" prophecy. Besides, which is more likely? A) The WK loses to a woman, after likely slaughtering everyone else he encounters? or B) Achilles is struck in the weakpoint at some point? I, personally, consider one of those possibilites far more likely than the other. One of these two dissolves the weapons (and fatally poisons the wielder of that weapon) that strike them. The other need only be hit in a certain point that is no mroe protected than any other (amid a field that could potentially be filled with raining arrows among other things) to be killed. I would put my money on the dissolving weapon guy.


Not as much of a "win button" as you would think, but I suspect they could take on some Orcs without much trouble.
But can they do it on an open field where numbers are very important as effectively as in a narrow pass where numbers are meaningless?


Also, here's something to consider. We see Aragon, a trained warrior without any special supernatural powers, slaughter tons of orcs, correct? Now let's take Ajax, or Agamemnon, or Achilles, or Diomedes, or any of at least twenty such heroes. Each dispatches MORE SOLDIERS THAN WE SEE ARAGON FIGHT ORCS. And these are trained soldiers, most likely at least almost as good with their respective weapons as Aragon is with his. So some simple multiplication gets us...massive orc slaughter. :smallbiggrin:
Is Aragorn magical? Not in the manner most people would mean. He is one of a line of Numernorian kings. In the Tolkein universe, that makes him 10 pounds of awesome in a 5 pound bag. Then add the sword that cut the ring from Sauron's hand. He isn't some joeschmo out killing scores of Orcs.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned, since we are using the movie (I haven't read RotK, just starting TT, so I don't know if there is a major difference here) the Orcs would get the Mumakils. I am not an expert on the various wars amongst the Greek city states, but I am guessing they never had to fight men atop elephants that are a few times larger than any on Earth. Much less ones that are equipped to mow down scores of men in a single charge. Rohan's cavalry (and therefore mobility) is what won that battle in the movie. I don't see men on foot fairing well against a line of them charging in. Especially after taking fire from the Orc artillery and archers.

Finally, where is EE? Shouldn't this be like lighting the beacon of Gondor? Or being seen by the All Seeing Eye as the case may be?

Executor
2008-06-21, 01:11 PM
Yes, where is EE? I thought this would've been right up his alley.

Yes, Aragorn is ten pounds of awesome in a five pound bag. But Achilles and Diomedes are both twenty pounds of awesome in ten pound bags. Achilles' name should be enough to explain his epic badassery. Diomedes is also an epic badass, he bested (and could've killed) Hector, best of all the Trojans, once. He also bested Aeneas, second best of all the Trojans, twice. The fury of one of his assaults drives back two gods, as Djinn in Tonic mentioned, and one of those gods was Ares, the friggin God of War. The Greek army's strength lies in it's high number of powerful leaders. One of Agamemnon's charges (charging alone mind you) was terrifying enough to drive back the entire Trojan army, and his brother Menelaus is equal in skill to Agamemnon. Ajax of Salamis is the bulwark of the Greeks due to his enormous size, strength and courage. He had two fights with Hector, as previously noted best of all the Trojans. In the first one he wounded Hector with his spear and smashed Hector's shield with a huge rock. The other fight happens during the Battle of the Ships when Hector tries to burn the Greek fleet. Ajax picked up a huge stone and threw it at Hector, almost killing the best of all the Trojans. Speaking of the Battle of the Ships, Ajax is also a huge badass during that fight. He picks up an enormous spear and leaps from ship to ship, holding off the entire Trojan army nearly single-handedly. Odysseus, another badass and perhaps the smartest of the Greeks. Not only is he immeasurably clever, but he was strong enough to wrestle Ajax to a draw.

Now how do most of the duels in the Iliad begin? The combatants throw their spears at each other. And how do you kill mumakil? Why you shoot them in the eyes with something. I daresay that Achilles or Ajax or Diomedes or any of those named badasses in Homer could throw a spear into the eyes of a mumakil.

On the Witch King: Tolkien tells us that when the Witch King ruled in Angmar, he came to a battle with Earnur, Prince of Gondor and Glorfindel of Rivendell. His army was routed by the Elves and Gondorrim, but the Witch King knew no mortal man could defeat him. And yet he ran away from Glorfindel and Earnur, because those two offered a challenge dangerous enough to him that he would rather flee than fight them. If those two could offer a dangerous enough challenge to cow the Witch King into retreat, i'm sure the great multitude of heroes in the Archaean host could do the same. Especially with warriors like the godlike Achilles.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2008-06-21, 01:16 PM
*snip*

Seconded on all counts. Also, I'm thrilled to see that someone else has both read and remembered his Illiad. :smallbiggrin:


...but the Witch King knew no mortal man could defeat him.

Is that the exact statement? Because then Achilles might just slip around that, being part God and all...I mean, he's mortal, but he might be just different enough to qualify.

Executor
2008-06-21, 01:21 PM
The Prophecy of Glorfindel on the Witch-King's doom... let me just consult the Appendices in my copy of Return of the King. Ah, here it is:

"Do not pursue him! He will not return to these lands. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall."

So it could either be interpreted that no pure-blooded Human can kill him, or no Male of any race can kill him. *shrugs* All the plenteous half-Gods and one quarter-Gods and two thirds-Gods amongst the Archaeans could possibly get around the prophecy since Gods are not human, obviously, and thus all their divine children aren't entirely human themselves.

DraPrime
2008-06-21, 01:31 PM
And the Greek heroes could, according to the Illiad, perform feats of strength that twelve modern men couldn't equal. I think wrestling a Troll to the ground is well within the capabilities of some of them.

Yes, but there's a problem here. There were far more trolls than super strong Greek heroes. The trolls would have killed a large amount of Greeks long before they ever all got killed.

My next point is that there's a good chance that the Witch King could out-tactic Odysseus. The Witch King has several thousand years of experience. Odysseus is far younger. Genius he may be, I doubt that he can top the experience that WK has.

Now the Witch King Really could easily handle the Greek heroes such as Ajax. He would need to take each of them on individually though. Odds are that the heroes won't all be together, so he can just pick them off one by one. If they catch onto his strategy, and stay together, than he can just initiate the carnage in some other part of the Greek army, which would probably force the heroes to split up to protect the different parts of the Greek army. Or the Witch King could simply order every single troll he has to go to the heroes, and then he would join his trolls in the incredible battle that would ensue.

sikyon
2008-06-21, 01:37 PM
Achillies is actually only half-man. His mother was, in some sources a sea nympth, in others a sea goddes.

The Wrath of Achilles is unstoppable. It was so consuming that he could have defied the fates themselves and brought about the downfall of Troy through his wrath alone, so that the Gods were forced to restrain him from doing so. His wrath is not bound to the fates, and therefore not bound to prophecies like how the witch king can't be slain by men, ect.

In short, Achilles is Hax. He also got sniped or stabbed in the back, depending on versions, and both times out of the battlefield.

Executor
2008-06-21, 01:43 PM
Yes, Achilles IS hax. Homer describes him as the only mortal in history to experience menis, all-encompassing, all-consuming rage. Wrath so powerful it can literally defy Fate. All the Witch-King has to do is lay a hand on either Patroculus, Achilles' best friend/cousin/lover (depends on what source you consult) or Briseis, Achilles' wife/lover, and the Witch-King's life is forfeit.

Even when he's not in his crazy, fate-defying, beserker rage, Achilles is still a demigod and the greatest warrior in Greek history. Achilles amongst orcs and evil men would be like a wolf amongst sheep.

So yeah... never, EVER piss off Achilles or, no matter what prophecies protect you, you WILL die. There's a reason he's called Achilles, Killer of Men.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/58/Triumph_of_Achilles_in_Corfu_Achilleion.jpg

Tyrant
2008-06-21, 03:24 PM
Yes, where is EE? I thought this would've been right up his alley.
Perhaps we need to include Sauron or the Ring to draw his gaze?


Yes, Aragorn is ten pounds of awesome in a five pound bag. But Achilles and Diomedes are both twenty pounds of awesome in ten pound bags.
It's still a 2:1 (awesomeness:bag capactiy) ratio. Aragorn is just going for quality over quantity. :smallsmile:

I don't doubt the awesomenss of the Greek heroes. My point was that Aragorn isn't just some dude wondering around killing Orcs like there's no tomorrow. There is a reason why he can do that. The obvious implication being that most people can't do that. The Greek heroes could do that, I agree. The average Greek soldier, I don't believe so.

If the WK has any tactical sense (and he does) then he will ensure this contest is never close. They will use catapaults to inflict mass casualties on the Greek formations and then arrows once they are within range. I assume arrow range will be similar for both sides. However, the Greeks will lose some to the catapaults, and they already start out outnumbered. All things being equal that means they also have fewer archers. Which means they will lose men faster than the WK will lose Orcs. By the time they close to melee range, the difference in numbers will be even greater than when they began.

Then the heroes of both sides will begin killing in great numbers. The WK's side has more trolls, and will therefore kill Greeks faster than they can kill Orcs. This keeps tilting the numbers more and more in favor of the WK. Some trolls and some heroes will fall. I believe the greater starting number of trolls (and the use of the Nazgul) will allow them to maintain numerical supremecy amongst the "super units". Somewhere in here the Mumakils will charge in and wipe out numerous greeks. Some will fall as well, but I have doubt that all can brought down as most of the heroes should be otherwise engaged. Eventually, the Greek "regulars" will be destroyed or routed and a number of Orcs will remain. The Greeks will give a good accounting , to be sure. But, in all likelyhod, several thousand if not tens of thousands of Orcs will remain. Any of the Greeks heroes who aren't immune to being stabbed to death will simply be overrun. So, can the remaining Greek heroes at that point overcome the remaining Trolls and Nazgul (which will collectively outnumber them in all likelyhood) with the Orcs taking shots where they can? Personally, I don't believe they can. Even if someone does bring down the WK, they are dead. Their weapon (and the arm that wielded it) will be ruined and they will die (no cure). This will happen to anyone who stabs him, so they might only wound him and he will live while they die in agony. Of course, someone still has to somehow overcome his magical protection to actually kill him. He could possible take several heroes with him merely because they were able to stab him.

I believe that the Mordor side simply has greater mass destruction capability than the Greek side. By starting outnumbered, the Greeks will likely be unable to afford to break up too much, or they will simply be picked apart piece by piece. They will have to stay together, which will allow the WK's army to take them out in great numbers. If they spit apart into smaller units, the WK will simply hammer one group after another. Between the catapaults, Trolls, Nazgul (complete with aerial dominance), Mumakil, and good old numerical supremecy they should be able to destroy the Greek regulars while still retaining some level of their own forces to focus exclusively on the heroes. That is assuming that a number of Greeks don't either run or cower in fear at the sight of the Nazgul, Trolls, Mumakil, etc. Living in an age of myth (the Greeks) isn't the same as living in a myth (LotR). The Greeks hear stories of their heroes doing incredible things (and a few have witnessed it on the battle field) and fighting incredible creatures. The Men of the West actually fight these creatures, sometimes on a daily basis. The Greek regulars will have some level of shock to overcome that the forces who actually opposed Mordor (in the book, obviously I don't imagine this "actually" happened) did not and I believe that is an important factor to consider.

EvilElitest
2008-06-21, 11:10 PM
I found a book yesterday that I thought I had lost. It was an old book from my childhood which profoundly changed the way I looked and thought about the world. It was called Black Ships before Troy. It was written by Rosemary Sutcliffe and beautifully illustrated by Alan Lee. This book brought home to me through Alan Lee's art what Homer's words could only ever do before: The epic nature of the myth of Troy.

Wait, i lost my copy, which version is it? Is it the one with pictures on every single page? I loved that version


Earlier that day I had watched the extended cut of Return of the King, in particular the Siege of Minas Tirith. One could say a lot of things about Peter Jackson's direction, but up until the arrival of the Army of the Dead, the Siege of Minas Tirith was Jackson's magnum opus of a battle scene. Light, sound and awesome scale blending together to make an epic scene worthy of Homer. This got to me thinking... if we pitted the hosts of Greece against the armies of Mordor on that field of Pelennor, who would be victorious?

1) Fist off, Helm's Deep was PJ's magum Opus, through Minas Tirith was Tolkien's Magum Opus (kudos for the word). The Battle for Gondor felt almost tired, like after Helm's deep they couldn't out shine that. But anyways
2) Are teh Trojen's with the greeks?



Let's begin with the size of the armies. Homer's Catalogue of Ships gives the size of the Greek (or Archaean) fleet as 1,186 ships. The precise number of men on each ship is not given other than for the Boeotians, who have 120 men per ship. If each ship has 120 fighting men on it, then the Greek host numbers 142,320 soldiers from the whole of Greece. They will have archers from Crete, slingers from Rhodes, hoplites from Athens and Sparta, charioteers from Mycenae. Homer divides the Greek force into 29 divisions, which works out to roughly 4,000 men a division. They are led by 46 captains, each a hero in his own regard. But the most prominent of these captains are Agamemnon, Odysseus, Diomedes, Ajax of Salamis, Ajax of Telamon, Menelaus, and Achilles. Tolkien gives no hard numbers for the size of the Mordor army at the Pelennor, so we are forced to go with Jackson's number of roughly 250,000 Orcs and Evil Men.


1) Actually, according to Lord of the Rings Weapons and War Fare, it was 250 000 morgul orcs, not counting hte other forces? Are we only using the movie as a reference, there are more of these guys in the books for Sauron, who is more powerful (ug, giant eyeball)
2) My memory may be faulty, but i think there were more greeks than that. I recall the High king having 500 men on his ship.



The battlefield is the only plain in Middle-Earth big enough to accomadate these armies, the Pelennor Fields. We shall suppose that the Greek fleet was lost in a freak-storm while on the way to Troy, and that supernatural storm sent their fleet across worlds and to the shores of Gondor. There Agamemnon, the King of all the Greeks, met and made a pact with Gandalf. The White Wizard sensed the great force entering Middle-Earth, and so he was there with Pippin when the entire glittering host landed near the mouth of the Anduin. Leaving their ships beached, the Greeks marched north for many days, at Gandalf's urgings, and encamped themselves upon the Plain of the Pelennor, beneath the walls of Minas Tirith. When the Witch-King's army came out of the Morgul Vale and crossed the River, the Greek host formed itself for battle opposite the armies of Mordor.
1) Well actually, i hate to nitpick, but the fields of Rohan are bigger. Sorry
2) why are the greeks on the outside then? Tolkien describes the city as being empty, they could fit inside



So the Greeks are fighting with their backs to the wall, literally. The Gondorrim within the city will not be offering their aide in anything more than archer support from the walls. The Rohirrim will most likely not be arriving and the Army of the Dead thing from Jackson's film... that quite simply won't happen at all. For purposes of comparison, we will suppose that the will of the Greek heroes like Odysseus or Ajax is on par with the will of the Nazgul. Achilles' will can contend with the Witch King's directly. In terms of mythic aide, the goddess Athena may lend a small helping hand here or there with the right advice whispered into the right ear at the right time, or a small boost of morale at the right time, but she will not partake directly in the fighting. Mostly this battle is a clash between the forces of Greece and those of Mordor. So, who will win?
How about we say taht forces of gondor are simply gone and it is only Greek's vs. Mordor. Because if the Greeks are in the field, they are in big trouble

Tonic is right about organization if we talk about the movie orcs.




Executor - for a Vs. thread, you have laid out the case for this confrontation very intelligently - bravo!
he is like the demigod of vs. threads





Finally, where is EE? Shouldn't this be like lighting the beacon of Gondor? Or being seen by the All Seeing Eye as the case may be?
my computer was put down by Gollum here i am


Now here is the general problem. Book or movie? If movie, then the greeks have a better chance, but i don't think they can win


now remember, Greeks are badass and amazing, i don't deny that. But, and a very important but, they are behind on times. if we go by the books, the greeks are almost a thousand years behind the tems in terms of weapons and armor, if the movies even more (they only have chain in the books, plate in the movies)

Big problem.

Another big concern is that while there are a lot, and i mean a lot of super badass greek heros, most of them, (not the big guys) are amazing in the realistic sense of being able to bring down ten men (which is really impressive in real life)

Also, the greek heros, except for you know who, are still mortal. They can be brought down.

They are also humans. While the heros could shrug off the Black Shadow or Fear, their men will have worst problems. Remember they suffered moral issues in the book. The Nazgul are nasty like that. Also, flying units? AHHHHHHH! Really, how are they going to get them down from up there. I mean, the nazgul can just hang out, or focus on the Gondor archers

more to the point, i'd say the average Ilid greek is far better than the average orc, or even Uruk hai. But the Easterlings, and if we count the books, the Men of Khand, Wain riders, Swertlings, Southrons, Haradrim, ect ect ect? the greeks might be better fighters, but look at the gear of the Easterlings in the movies? Dangerous stuff

Also The giant elephants. Don't underestimate huge giant Elephants with archers on top. Now greeks fought Persians, but still

Trolls are nasty little buggers, and while a hero could bring one down easy, Trolls literally can bring down maybe a dozen greeks before being killed by a hero, depending on its type. Even Achilles will have a problem, because when he is the only guy left (and he is going to be the only guy left) he can simply be super swarmed by orcs until he is subdued or accidentally slashed in the heel.

In short, i think the Greeks, even with archery support will lose. However, if this is the movie army, they will make a huge dent in Sauron's forces. And this dent will be caused before they even get to the city. So Sauron is attacking far more weakened then before, and might not be able to take the city after such losses
from
EE

Executor
2008-06-22, 12:05 AM
Wait, i lost my copy, which version is it? Is it the one with pictures on every single page? I loved that version

It is indeed :) Now, I must apologize my friend but I must cordially disagree on some points



1) Fist off, Helm's Deep was PJ's magum Opus, through Minas Tirith was Tolkien's Magum Opus (kudos for the word). The Battle for Gondor felt almost tired, like after Helm's deep they couldn't out shine that. But anyways
2) Are teh Trojen's with the greeks?

1: You are probably right... but Helm's Deep just a little too... it felt too small for me.

2: No, because Hector and Achilles fighting on the same side is just too much badass for Middle-Earth to handle.




1) Actually, according to Lord of the Rings Weapons and War Fare, it was 250 000 morgul orcs, not counting the other forces? Are we only using the movie as a reference, there are more of these guys in the books for Sauron, who is more powerful (ug, giant eyeball)
2) My memory may be faulty, but i think there were more greeks than that. I recall the High king having 500 men on his ship.

1: I was more thinking of the movie version as it was what inspired this VS thread to begin with.

2: Homer, unfortunately, does not give us an exact number for each ship, so I just went with the best general number I could find (120 for each ship, listed under the Boeotians) and calculated it based on that to come out with the 142,000 figure.



1) Well actually, i hate to nitpick, but the fields of Rohan are bigger. Sorry
2) why are the greeks on the outside then? Tolkien describes the city as being empty, they could fit inside

1: Nitpicks don't matter :smalltongue:

2: Reading the Iliad, the Greeks seemed to favour field battles and have no knowledge of siege warfare either attacking or defending.


]
How about we say that forces of gondor are simply gone and it is only Greek's vs. Mordor. Because if the Greeks are in the field, they are in big trouble

Tonic is right about organization if we talk about the movie orcs.

That seems reasonable to me



he is like the demigod of vs. threads

*flexes muscles* Thank you :smallbiggrin: I am so sigging that.




now remember, Greeks are badass and amazing, i don't deny that. But, and a very important but, they are behind on times. if we go by the books, the greeks are almost a thousand years behind the tems in terms of weapons and armor, if the movies even more (they only have chain in the books, plate in the movies)

Big problem.

Another big concern is that while there are a lot, and i mean a lot of super badass greek heros, most of them, (not the big guys) are amazing in the realistic sense of being able to bring down ten men (which is really impressive in real life)

Also, the greek heros, except for you know who, are still mortal. They can be brought down.

They are also humans. While the heros could shrug off the Black Shadow or Fear, their men will have worst problems. Remember they suffered moral issues in the book. The Nazgul are nasty like that. Also, flying units? AHHHHHHH! Really, how are they going to get them down from up there. I mean, the nazgul can just hang out, or focus on the Gondor archers

more to the point, i'd say the average Ilid greek is far better than the average orc, or even Uruk hai. But the Easterlings, and if we count the books, the Men of Khand, Wain riders, Swertlings, Southrons, Haradrim, ect ect ect? the greeks might be better fighters, but look at the gear of the Easterlings in the movies? Dangerous stuff

Also The giant elephants. Don't underestimate huge giant Elephants with archers on top. Now greeks fought Persians, but still

Trolls are nasty little buggers, and while a hero could bring one down easy, Trolls literally can bring down maybe a dozen greeks before being killed by a hero, depending on its type. Even Achilles will have a problem, because when he is the only guy left (and he is going to be the only guy left) he can simply be super swarmed by orcs until he is subdued or accidentally slashed in the heel.

In short, i think the Greeks, even with archery support will lose. However, if this is the movie army, they will make a huge dent in Sauron's forces. And this dent will be caused before they even get to the city. So Sauron is attacking far more weakened then before, and might not be able to take the city after such losses
from
EE

In the books and in the movie, Gandalf's presence and the presence of mighty individuals like Boromir, Faramir and Aragorn heartens the Men of Gondor and somewhat negates the fear of the Nazgul. I believe the Captains of the Greek host could do the same, even if it's on a smaller scale that doesn't matter because there are 46 big damn heroes in the Greek army, some of them amazingly badass like the aformentioned Diomedes and his aformentioned feats.

The giant elephants... now there are 46 BDHs in the Greek host, most of whom are freakishly good at throwing spears. Like Ajax, who leapt from ship to ship with a huge spear and held off an entire army by himself. I think they can throw a spear into the eye of a mumakil. I'm not saying the mumakil will not cause major casualties, but they aren't invincible.

Now something else about the giant elephants. In 202 BC, the Roman general Scipio Africanus faced the army of the infamous Carthaginian Hannibal on the plain of Zama, some miles from Carthage. Hannibal charged the Roman line with 80 war elephants to start the battle. What Scipio did was have his Roman infantry simply step out of the way, diverting the war elephants into channels in the Roman line and letting them charge harmlessly through while the soldiers threw their javelins at the beasts. This was possible because elephants can't really turn at all when they're charging. Mumakil would probably have a similar disability. And Odysseus... Odysseus is easily as clever as Scipio.

Yes, Achilles is probably going to be the only guy left if the Greeks lose. But if they have Achilles, that's an if. Remember your Iliad: Whenever the Greeks didn't have Achilles, they got slaughtered by the Trojans. When they did have Achilles, they annihilated the Trojans. Achilles can affect a battle immensely but his mere presence and the presence of his Myrmidons. The Myrmidons are Achilles' people, fanatically loyal and freakishly brave and skilled warriors. The creme of the Greek host. And remember, Achilles has anger issues. Like get him angry and he bends reality and defies fate. And all you have to do is lay a hand on Patroclus or another of Achilles' close friends like Odysseus for example... that's all you have to do and his menis, his all-encompassing, reality-bending, prophecy-breaking beserker rage kicks in. And then the army of Mordor is boned. Literally, after they piss off Achilles they have thrown away their chances of victory. When Hector killed Patroclus, Achilles killed so many of the Trojan army that the River Scamander was clogged with dead bodies, and the River God came out and fought Achilles because he was angry about that and Achilles kicked his ass.

DraPrime
2008-06-22, 12:24 AM
All this talk of how awesome Achilles is is good and all, but I want to repeat a point I already made. The forces of Mordor will literally be throwing themselves onto Achilles. There are very good odds that a lucky blade, arrow, troll fist, or whatever will hit him in the heel. And once Achilles goes down, so do the rest of the Greeks.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2008-06-22, 12:34 AM
All this talk of how awesome Achilles is is good and all, but I want to repeat a point I already made. The forces of Mordor will literally be throwing themselves onto Achilles. There are very good odds that a lucky blade, arrow, troll fist, or whatever will hit him in the heel. And once Achilles goes down, so do the rest of the Greeks.

Surprisingly, the Illiad never mentions this weakness. While it is true that this is commonly considered Achilles' weakness, Homer never even mentions it...in the Illiad, people expect to be able to kill Achilles on several occasions (After all, would Hector have challenged him if he was invincible?). That legend comes from other sources.

Thus, given the two works being considered, Achilles is indeed stripped of his legendary invincibility, but this is covered by his obvious badassery to the point where it no longer matters...he gets hit once in the Illiad, if I'm not mistaken, and that blow is deflected by his god-forged shield.

Also, impressive though the Nazgul and such things are, our Greek comrades have stood up to gods and come out on top. On SEVERAL occasions. Factor in that and the wrath of Achilles, which, due to his parentage, is directly hot-wired to his mother, and from there, to Zeus, and Mordor (superior equipment and numbers notwithstanding) is in for a world of pain.

Executor
2008-06-22, 12:34 AM
Orcs are not good shots... the heel is a small target and it took divine guidance from Apollo for Paris to hit Achilles just there. It's far more likely that Patroclus will go down first and then the fate-breaking rage kicks in and the Mordor army is screwed. Once the fate-breaking rage turns on, the Anduin's is going to run black with orc-blood if it isn't already dammed with bodies.

And you are right Djinn, in the entire Trojan War Achilles gets hit once on the battlefield. And the Trojan War is essentially the ancient equivalent of the First World War. The only time anyone hit Achilles on the battlefield was when Hector throws his spear and it doesn't even dent Achilles' divine shield. Even if we include Paris' crazy arrow-shot, then that's still only two hits in ten years of war.

Cybren
2008-06-22, 02:42 AM
And you are right Djinn, in the entire Trojan War Achilles gets hit once on the battlefield. And the Trojan War is essentially the ancient equivalent of the First World War. The only time anyone hit Achilles on the battlefield was when Hector throws his spear and it doesn't even dent Achilles' divine shield. Even if we include Paris' crazy arrow-shot, then that's still only two hits in ten years of war.
In the entire Illiad, a two week period of a ten year war. We have no idea what happens in the rest of it because we only have two of the poems

Plus, in the Illiad he wasn't even invincible.
none the less orcs are stupid and cowardly and the greeks are all supermen

Ponce
2008-06-22, 02:58 AM
I think it depends largely on what the orcs do initially. If they do what you'd expect of a band of orcs and charge headlong at the greeks, spouting warcries and profanity, well, things might get messy. Bull rushing a phalanx is probably a bad idea. Otherwise, the orcs probably have a tactical advantage.

I ran through the Illiad, the greeks brought in total around 1200 ships with them. Each trireme with a compliment of around 200, that puts their number at around 240,000. An even match.

I'm not certain how the equipment compares on both sides. Though the orcs use iron, I'm inclined to believe theirs are of an inferior make. The smatter of miscellaneous heavenly gifts on the greek side is also a boon. This part is a toss up.

Orcs are depicted as rather cowardly in the books, such as in Moria where Aragorn slew an orc captain, the captain's entire company just skedaddled. Without superior numbers, and with a number of destructive icons like Achilles leading the fray on the other side, its likely the orcs will break and scatter.

I think I have to give it to the greeks.

sikyon
2008-06-22, 09:28 AM
Note also that achillies was not beaten on the battlefield. He was beaten by a sneak attack. On the battlefield he was invicible, and honestly to have someone like that standing at your backs is amazing. To also see him running up and butchering trolls left and right is probably going to put a dent in mordor's morale.

It's like having your army lead by superman, basically. You know your champion is the best of the best and he can't be beat. That's a HUGE morale booster.

DraPrime
2008-06-22, 09:43 AM
Note also that achillies was not beaten on the battlefield. He was beaten by a sneak attack. On the battlefield he was invicible, and honestly to have someone like that standing at your backs is amazing. To also see him running up and butchering trolls left and right is probably going to put a dent in mordor's morale.

It's like having your army lead by superman, basically. You know your champion is the best of the best and he can't be beat. That's a HUGE morale booster.

He wasn't beaten because they did phalanx fighting, which is quite a bit more organized than what is done in LOTR. Mordor will simply throw everything it has at him. Now imagine something like 10 orcs all tackling Achilles, trying to hurt him however they can. There's a good chance that he will get hit in the heel. Also, the Witch King need only to pick up Achilles with his big flying....thing (I can't remember what it's called), and simply drop him from several hundred feet. I'm sure that Achilles will probably get it in the heel.

Steven the Lich
2008-06-22, 11:06 AM
Now the greek heroes are sounding awesome. However, Saurons armies have the numbers.


Orcs are not good shots... the heel is a small target and it took divine guidance from Apollo for Paris to hit Achilles just there.
I believe actually they are very efficient with bows.
Yeah, now that I think about it, it did take divine guidence from Apollo. Damn, those olympian gods had to stick their fat noses in everything back then, didn't they?

I must agree that the orcs are cowardly in nature, as well as stupid and disobedient. I think the average greek could take one on and win.

The Nazgul... are extremely bad news for the greeks. On the fell beasts, they can spread a disease below. They can pick up the heroes with ease and kill them off early by dropping them to their deaths.

The greeks are fighting fantasy... magic and all that. Their heroes may be epic, but they only have a limited supply of that. I have to hand this to the armies of mordor
Oh, to make things clear...

If you mean Odysseus, then yes.
Ulysses is another name for Odysseus. Just though I'd make that clear.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2008-06-22, 11:16 AM
He wasn't beaten because they did phalanx fighting, which is quite a bit more organized than what is done in LOTR. Mordor will simply throw everything it has at him. Now imagine something like 10 orcs all tackling Achilles, trying to hurt him however they can. There's a good chance that he will get hit in the heel. Also, the Witch King need only to pick up Achilles with his big flying....thing (I can't remember what it's called), and simply drop him from several hundred feet. I'm sure that Achilles will probably get it in the heel.

Really? They fought phalanx style all the time? Odd...they don't in my Illiad. In fact, Akhilleus (Achilles, whatever you want to call him) does precisely the opposite: he charges directly into the enemy lines, and, given the number of foes he slays, is probably completely surrounded at all times.

So 10 orcs attack him. Achilles has dealt with more foes, bested better foes, like Aineias (described, along with Achilles, as "two fighters, far and away the best, between the armies"--so he's better than Diomedes, who defeats the gods), and survived worse.

Additionally, orcs aren't that bad an aim. When fighting someone, you aim for the torso, head, and neck, as those wounds will fell a foe the fastest. You have to be downright inept to accidentally strike the heel with any blow actually intended to kill your foe.

And drop Achilles from several hundred feet? Well, given that it's LOTR as seen in the movie, two sword strokes from Eowin (spelled wrong, I know) decapitate the Witch King's beast. Achilles, with his skill and weaponry, can no doubt do better. I think that if the Witch King tries it, he'll need to find himself a new monster.


Ulysses is another name for Odysseus. Just though I'd make that clear.

Feh. Latinate translations of Greek names. Ah well...you're right there.

SilentNight
2008-06-22, 11:24 AM
Do the Greeks have Alexander's pezetairos (I think that's how you spell it)? If so then I can't see orcs standing up long to a even a battalion of highly trained awl pike men. It really depends on nerve I suppose. The Greeks excelled because of their training and excellent tactics. As long as they keep those up, the orcs don't stand a chance, and the heroes can take care of any heavy threats. However, once the Witch King appears, there's no telling what effect he could have on Greek morale. Startled and confused, the Greek defense and coordination would fall apart fairly quickly, reducing it to a numbers battle, with the Greek's training, that would make it about an even fight. So if the Greeks can take down the W.K. relatively fast, I'd give this to them.

EvilElitest
2008-06-22, 11:26 AM
It is indeed :) Now, I must apologize my friend but I must cordially disagree on some points

Oh i loved that version, i read it when i was seven. Oh gods taht was a god book. I wish i could find mine, because that was simply amazing. I wish i could find mine....oh well
Fair enough, i shall cordially disagree with your disagreements




1: You are probably right... but Helm's Deep just a little too... it felt too small for me.

2: No, because Hector and Achilles fighting on the same side is just too much badass for Middle-Earth to handle.
1) yeah but it was better orginized. PJ knew every step in the battle and it was better controlled and monitored. The siege of Gondor felt, meh, bored.
2) Well if this is the book version of Sauron's forced, they both the Trojens and the Greeks will still be at a disadvantage




1: I was more thinking of the movie version as it was what inspired this VS thread to begin with.

2: Homer, unfortunately, does not give us an exact number for each ship, so I just went with the best general number I could find (120 for each ship, listed under the Boeotians) and calculated it based on that to come out with the 142,000 figure.



1) Well the book forces are lot more powerful and dangerous.
2) Didn't they lose have their fleet before getting to troy? Which would mean that they would have double that


1: Nitpicks don't matter :smalltongue:

2: Reading the Iliad, the Greeks seemed to favour field battles and have no knowledge of siege warfare either attacking or defending.

1) NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooo
2) They knew how to defend actually. They just couldn't at troy. The trojans came outside to fight, because of honor and because they wanted to still control the lands around Troy


That seems reasonable to me
Right, so the Greek army ether
A) intercepted the Mordor forces on their way to the city, and are acting like a buffer
b) Or they are inside the abandoned MInas Tirith. Which ever suits you


*flexes muscles* Thank you :smallbiggrin: I am so sigging that.
Sweet i got sigged




In the books and in the movie, Gandalf's presence and the presence of mighty individuals like Boromir, Faramir and Aragorn heartens the Men of Gondor and somewhat negates the fear of the Nazgul. I believe the Captains of the Greek host could do the same, even if it's on a smaller scale that doesn't matter because there are 46 big damn heroes in the Greek army, some of them amazingly badass like the aformentioned Diomedes and his aformentioned feats.

1) Gandalf is a godly being, and is able to repel the fear (remember the troops of gondor were too afraid to even shoot before he acted
b) Boromir, Faramir, Aragorn, THe prince Imiadris (how ever you spell it) and Eomor inspired the men against the fear and despair yes, but the Black Shadow still came bout
c) aren't you missing some heros? like the guy who landed on the Shores first and Ajex the lesser andAntolochus or Nestor
d) however, an a very important however, most of the greek heros do die. And they aren't perfect, the Nazgul will aim for them. I mean, they could shoot them, or they could attack them directly, but the heros can die


The giant elephants... now there are 46 BDHs in the Greek host, most of whom are freakishly good at throwing spears. Like Ajax, who leapt from ship to ship with a huge spear and held off an entire army by himself. I think they can throw a spear into the eye of a mumakil. I'm not saying the mumakil will not cause major casualties, but they aren't invincible.

True, but think of Moral. Against Calvery the 20 great Mumakil (and maybe 50 lesser ones) cause huge damage, think about what they could do to the entire force. I can see some going down with spears in their eyes yes, but as the won't show up until after the fighting is fierce, at least some of the heros will be out of actions by the time they show up



Now something else about the giant elephants. In 202 BC, the Roman general Scipio Africanus faced the army of the infamous Carthaginian Hannibal on the plain of Zama, some miles from Carthage. Hannibal charged the Roman line with 80 war elephants to start the battle. What Scipio did was have his Roman infantry simply step out of the way, diverting the war elephants into channels in the Roman line and letting them charge harmlessly through while the soldiers threw their javelins at the beasts. This was possible because elephants can't really turn at all when they're charging. Mumakil would probably have a similar disability. And Odysseus... Odysseus is easily as clever as Scipio.

Yes but those were normal real world Elephaunts. And taht plan worked great, but Scipio's forces weren't already in huge trouble from massive fighting. They had the time to ready themselves (i mean, Hannaibal was using an ill trained army at the time, he really didn't have a chance, as he told the Senators of Carthage who sent him in there)




Yes, Achilles is probably going to be the only guy left if the Greeks lose. But if they have Achilles, that's an if. Remember your Iliad: Whenever the Greeks didn't have Achilles, they got slaughtered by the Trojans. When they did have Achilles, they annihilated the Trojans. Achilles can affect a battle immensely but his mere presence and the presence of his Myrmidons. The Myrmidons are Achilles' people, fanatically loyal and freakishly brave and skilled warriors. The creme of the Greek host. And remember, Achilles has anger issues. Like get him angry and he bends reality and defies fate. And all you have to do is lay a hand on Patroclus or another of Achilles' close friends like Odysseus for example... that's all you have to do and his menis, his all-encompassing, reality-bending, prophecy-breaking beserker rage kicks in. And then the army of Mordor is boned. Literally, after they piss off Achilles they have thrown away their chances of victory. When Hector killed Patroclus, Achilles killed so many of the Trojan army that the River Scamander was clogged with dead bodies, and the River God came out and fought Achilles because he was angry about that and Achilles kicked his ass.
1) Achilles isn't friends with Odysseus
2) Actually, you forget that Achilles is, as described in the book, utterly unhinged. I mean he is an amazing warrior, most likely because he is also a raging psychotic. He is extremly proud, vain and emotionally unhinged, just a truly badass warrior. And even in the poem, his menis didn't wni the war, he was killed by treacherouy, but he still lose. His tragic flaw, in the poem is his hubris, and while he might go kick ass on his own, his allows the WK, to easily manipulate him. Remember the last king of Gondor? Same situation. In fact, a smart move would be to have him fight a lesser Nazgul. While he might kill the nazgul (he has a divine sword i think) he would still fall to the black Breath in doing so. And even then, he can still be swarmed by orcs. Or by archers. Or by sheer number swamping. Remember, orcs don't play fair, unlike the Trojens, who in their honor would attack him one at a time and die, orcs will group shank him. And if only one of them pulls of a heel shot, he is out of there
3) Actually, greek river gods have a history of getting their ass kicked by mortals all the time sadly. I"m not saying he isn't badass, but he can't win all on his own. He can only be one place at a time, while the forces of mordor will be group swarming his guys

Tonic, the greek heros never killed the gods. on the subject of his heel, that was the one place in the river Styx where he wasn't dipped. Through i wonder why his mother gave him that super armor if he was already invincible (or so she thought)



Orcs are not good shots... the heel is a small target and it took divine guidance from Apollo for Paris to hit Achilles just there. It's far more likely that Patroclus will go down first and then the fate-breaking rage kicks in and the Mordor army is screwed. Once the fate-breaking rage turns on, the Anduin's is going to run black with orc-blood if it isn't already dammed with bodies.
orcs actually are good shots actually, the are described as such many times in the books. They also use poison blades and arrows so greeks are going to be in trouble



I ran through the Illiad, the greeks brought in total around 1200 ships with them. Each trireme with a compliment of around 200, that puts their number at around 240,000. An even match.
Actually no. If we go by the orcs lesser numbers in the movie, there are 250000 MORGUL ORCS. There are still thousand more Trolls (of all types) mordor orcs, Uruk hai Easterlings and Haradrim. Not to mention the Fell Beasts and the nazgul.



I'm not certain how the equipment compares on both sides. Though the orcs use iron, I'm inclined to believe theirs are of an inferior make. The smatter of miscellaneous heavenly gifts on the greek side is also a boon. This part is a toss up.
Yet again if we go by Weapons and Warfare, the orcs are actually good weapon makers, just ugly ones. While the Morgul orcs are using uniform weapons, they are still divided into groups (IE, archers of all types, Shield men, Pole arm users, ect) They tend to use iron weapons, and lots of it, but it is patch work. However iron is extremly useful. Also Archers (with poison)
don't forget the Easterlings.

The hardarim in the movies are actually less tech then the Greeks through, but they show up near the end when the greeks are already weakened.




Orcs are depicted as rather cowardly in the books, such as in Moria where Aragorn slew an orc captain, the captain's entire company just skedaddled. Without superior numbers, and with a number of destructive icons like Achilles leading the fray on the other side, its likely the orcs will break and scatter.

In the books the orcs are fearless, because of the WK. They are only cowardly if their commanders are killed, and even they they will keep fighting as long as they have the numbers advantage

Also remember guys, it is dark out. THe greeks traditionally didn't fight in the night, but orcs do, because Sauron blotted out the sun

Dragon prime has it down about the heel thing, Achilles will cause huge losses, but he only needs to get hit onces
from
EE

EvilElitest
2008-06-22, 11:29 AM
Guys you forget, they weren't only orcs at the battle field. Uruks, trolls, Easterlings, haradrim, Mumikil, And fell beasts. If Achilles is grabbed by a fell beast and lifted away, then i could see him killing it yes. But he would fall......and so would the Wk. the WK wouldn't be hurt by the fall, but Achilles would. Also the Nazgul use black breath.
from
EE

SilentNight
2008-06-22, 11:34 AM
Also remember guys, it is dark out. THe greeks traditionally didn't fight in the night, but orcs do, because Sauron blotted out the sun

Crap, I forgot about that. This may end up going to Mordor then, if only for sheer numbers.

Heh, I just realized that my first ever post was on a thread similar to this. I think it was the Klingons vs. the Urukai. I didn't know much about the Klingons but it was still cool.

EvilElitest
2008-06-22, 11:41 AM
Crap, I forgot about that. This may end up going to Mordor then, if only for sheer numbers.

Heh, I just realized that my first ever post was on a thread similar to this. I think it was the Klingons vs. the Urukai. I didn't know much about the Klingons but it was still cool.

1) Yeah, orcs can see in the dark, and even if the gods get rid of the cloud cover, the fighter would have already been in motion. Also, as the fighting will likely last more than a day, the orcs can keep going at night. IF forced to resort to day fighting, the WK has the Easterlings and the hardadrim
2) Welcome to the world of vs. please leave your soul at the door
from
EE

Djinn_in_Tonic
2008-06-22, 11:45 AM
1) Achilles isn't friends with Odysseus

Untrue. Odysseus is one of the few Greeks who could still approach Achilles in the full fury of his wrath.


2) Actually, you forget that Achilles is, as described in the book, utterly unhinged. I mean he is an amazing warrior, most likely because he is also a raging psychotic. He is extremly proud, vain and emotionally unhinged, just a truly badass warrior.

Not unhinged...just wrathful. We never see him as insane, just furious.


And even in the poem, his menis didn't wni the war, he was killed by treacherouy, but he still lose.

Actually, he never dies in the poem. He dies later, under conditions that Homer never exactly specifies (although it's assumed he is shot in the heel).


Tonic, the greek heros never killed the gods. on the subject of his heel, that was the one place in the river Styx where he wasn't dipped. Through i wonder why his mother gave him that super armor if he was already invincible (or so she thought)

I'm well aware of both these facts. However, I said defeated, not killed. Big difference there. And Homer never mentions the invincibility granted by the river Styx, although most other legends do.


Actually no. If we go by the orcs lesser numbers in the movie, there are 250000 MORGUL ORCS. There are still thousand more Trolls (of all types) mordor orcs, Uruk hai Easterlings and Haradrim. Not to mention the Fell Beasts and the nazgul.

Fair enough. However, by the OP post...


so we are forced to go with Jackson's number of roughly 250,000 Orcs and Evil Men

No trolls mentioned, or even Nazgul, actually. Just mano-y-mano. Still, as I'd say the Greeks easily carry the day in that case, let's keep our current discussion as-is.



Also remember guys, it is dark out. THe greeks traditionally didn't fight in the night, but orcs do, because Sauron blotted out the sun

Not a problem. When you don't have any artificial light beyond a torch, your night-vision improves greatly. Add to that that the Spartans, at least, practiced combat at night, and the orcs don't have that big an advantage.

Also, why is it dark out? Sauron isn't figured into this...or, if he is, the Greeks need their gods as well. In fact, since the gods actually altered the course of the battle rather than just sit in the back like Sauron, I'm suprised they're not already included.


Dragon prime has it down about the heel thing, Achilles will cause huge losses, but he only needs to get hit onces
from
EE

See my previous post for a response to this claim.

EvilElitest
2008-06-22, 11:54 AM
Untrue. Odysseus is one of the few Greeks who could still approach Achilles in the full fury of his wrath.

I thought he was respected, Achilles only had a few friends.


Not unhinged...just wrathful. We never see him as insane, just furious.

Achilles is totally unhinges, badass as he may be, he is still a bloody psychopath. Also he has a child like reaction to problems and suffers from major hubris. I mean, one of the points in the poem is that Hector was the lesser fighter, but the better man. Achilles is not. He has the sin of hubris


Actually, he never dies in the poem. He dies later, under conditions that Homer never exactly specifies (although it's assumed he is shot in the heel).
Alright, in the Trojen war legend he is shot in the heel


I'm well aware of both these facts. However, I said defeated, not killed. Big difference there. And Homer never mentions the invincibility granted by the river Styx, although most other legends do.

1) Yes. However these heros, except for Achilles are still mortal
2) Fair enough, but homer only covers some of the weeks of the conflict


Fair enough. However, by the OP post...



No trolls mentioned, or even Nazgul, actually. Just mano-y-mano. Still, as I'd say the Greeks easily carry the day in that case, let's keep our current discussion as-is.
No i'm saying even in PJ's number there were more. Lord of the Rings weapons and warfare describes the numbers, and there are 250000 morgul orcs, and thousands of Uruk hai, trolls, Easterlings, Haradrim, and mordor orcs, along with a few score Mumukil


Not a problem. When you don't have any artificial light beyond a torch, your night-vision improves greatly. Add to that that the Spartans, at least, practiced combat at night, and the orcs don't have that big an advantage.

1) The Spartans did fight at night, but they are still at a disadvantage, as the night is the natural element for the orcs. They are still limited, and arrow fire is huge because you can't see the arrows
2) your torch point is right, but it takes time. Time which the greeks don't have to adjust to the lack of light
3) And even the best human night light is nothing compared to orc's sight, which is perfect in the dark. Lots of dirty tricks can be pulled, orc playing dead, attack from behind, bad stabbing, arrows that couldn't happen in the day as easily



Also, why is it dark out? Sauron isn't figured into this...or, if he is, the Greeks need their gods as well. In fact, since the gods actually altered the course of the battle rather than just sit in the back like Sauron, I'm suprised they're not already included.

Sauron blotted out the sun before making his attack on Gondor. If the Greeks show up then, then the sun is already gone



See my previous post for a response to this claim.

Except imagine literally masses of orcs smashing onto him at teh same time. In the trojon war, it was honorable to fight one on one but they are taking him en mass. Also orcs like to play dead then attack, and wounded orcs with knives, his heel will eventually be hit
from
EE

Djinn_in_Tonic
2008-06-22, 12:08 PM
I thought he was respected, Achilles only had a few friends.

Phoinix had com in unremarked, but when
the two new visitors, Odysseus leading,
entered and stood before him, then Akhilleus
rose in wonderment, and left his chair,
his harp still in his hand. So did Patroklos
rise at sight of the two men. Akhilleus
made both welcome with a gesture, saying:

"Peace! My two great friends, I greet your coming."

I think that (Illiad, Book Nine, Lines 232-239, Robert Fitzgerald translation) settles that nicely.


Achilles is totally unhinges, badass as he may be, he is still a bloody psychopath.

You need to support this claim more, EE. You're just making statements...what exactly makes him a psychopath? I'll agree he has major hubris, but why psychopath? Why just not immense wrath?


Sauron blotted out the sun before making his attack on Gondor. If the Greeks show up then, then the sun is already gone

Again, if a god-like being such as Sauron is influencing the battle, I think it only fair to grant the Greeks their gods as well.


Except imagine literally masses of orcs smashing onto him at teh same time. In the trojon war, it was honorable to fight one on one but they are taking him en mass. Also orcs like to play dead then attack, and wounded orcs with knives, his heel will eventually be hit
from
EE

I can imagine it. However, there is a limit to the number of foes that can fit in any one place at a given time, and Achilles has shown himself to be a match for that. Additionally, assuming such swarm tactics, the chances of the Witch King being struck and slain by one of the many divinely gifted members of the Greek army are about equally high. After all...remember the version we saw in the movie? He wields an incredibly impractical weapon that any decent fighter can dodge (that giant mace), and is exceptionally weak against fire...remember Greek fire? Guess who had that? Here's a hint...it wasn't the Chinese.

DraPrime
2008-06-22, 12:11 PM
And drop Achilles from several hundred feet? Well, given that it's LOTR as seen in the movie, two sword strokes from Eowin (spelled wrong, I know) decapitate the Witch King's beast. Achilles, with his skill and weaponry, can no doubt do better. I think that if the Witch King tries it, he'll need to find himself a new monster.

Well if Achilles does that, he'll still fall. So the WK will grab him, and gain at least some altitude before Achilles kills his mount. Being grabbed by a huge winged beast can be rather disorienting, and from what we've seen in the movies (since the books can't really provide this sort of information) the WK's mount can gain elevation fairly quickly. So once Achilles realizes what the hell just happened, he'll be high up. So if he does kill the thing, he falls. If he doesn't, he falls. Either way Achilles is screwed in this situation. And once Achilles dies the Greeks will take a huge hit to their moral. Second of all, Eowyn took the thing down when it was on the ground, and not moving quite as much. She didn't have to deal with a sudden transition from being on the ground fighting, to being in the air in the claws of some monster.

warty goblin
2008-06-22, 12:16 PM
You know what's really ironic about this debate? The Greeks can't lose.

If they vanquish the Orcs et al. then their glory will live forever.

If they lose to the Orcs et al. then their glory will live forever, if only in the fear they've set in the hearts of Sauron's minions. Given that the Orcs are still sore about the Last Alliance 3,000 years before LOTR, I should say that the sort of pain Achilles would bring is gonna last a while in the Orcish collective memory.

Either way for a large number of the Greeks, and particularly the heroes, they've won.

Executor
2008-06-22, 12:17 PM
So EE... if the army of Mordor has Sauron's backing, like in the darkness obscuring the field, then what stops the Greek Gods from lending their own support to the Greeks? If I recall the Iliad properly, Athena, Hera, and Poseidon usually favoured the Greeks. Now, with no Trojans to oppose, I see no reason why the Gods who favoured the Trojans would not now through their lots in with the Greeks, their only worshippers in Middle-Earth. Ares and Apollo and Aphrodite and, most importantly, Zeus. If believe that Sauron's darkness and despair can be counteracted by the Greek Gods. And the Greek Gods tend to be more... proactive than Sauron. Athena would be directly advising heroes like Diomedes or Odysseus, Ares would partake in the battle itself, Poseidon would set the waters of the Anduin against the Orcs in a flood of some kind, Zeus would do the old lightning-bolt thing.

EvilElitest
2008-06-22, 12:28 PM
Phoinix had com in unremarked, but when
the two new visitors, Odysseus leading,
entered and stood before him, then Akhilleus
rose in wonderment, and left his chair,
his harp still in his hand. So did Patroklos
rise at sight of the two men. Akhilleus
made both welcome with a gesture, saying:

"Peace! My two great friends, I greet your coming."

I think that (Illiad, Book Nine, Lines 232-239, Robert Fitzgerald translation) settles that nicely.

touche



You need to support this claim more, EE. You're just making statements...what exactly makes him a psychopath? I'll agree he has major hubris, but why psychopath? Why just not immense wrath?
Lets compare him to say, Hector. Hector is the Trojan version of Achilles you might say, in terms taht he is there greatest warrior. However Hector is honorable. he is brave, but he has no love for war, nor love for fighting. He fights to protect his people and to protect his family, and truly wishes to end the conflict once and for all

Achilles loves fighting, almost for its own sake. While he loves his friends, he prefers fighting to anything else. He has no real loyalty to his High King, nor does he care about Paris. He likes to fight, and when his honor is touched, he hangs out in his tent and askes the Gods to allow the Trojens to win until he shows up. It isn't until he friend is killed that he actually starts fighting, and even then he kills Hector like a dog, i mean he leaves his body to the dogs. Achilles is unhinged in terms of temper, he isn't stupid by any means, and he is still a great fighter, but he has some emotional issues



Again, if a god-like being such as Sauron is influencing the battle, I think it only fair to grant the Greeks their gods as well.

except he was doing that before the Greeks showed up. He didn't do it to fight hte greeks, he did it to fight the Gondorians. THey just got caught up n the struggle



I can imagine it. However, there is a limit to the number of foes that can fit in any one place at a given time, and Achilles has shown himself to be a match for that. Additionally, assuming such swarm tactics, the chances of the Witch King being struck and slain by one of the many divinely gifted members of the Greek army are about equally high. After all...remember the version we saw in the movie? He wields an incredibly impractical weapon that any decent fighter can dodge (that giant mace), and is exceptionally weak against fire...remember Greek fire? Guess who had that? Here's a hint...it wasn't the Chinese.
1) Well if we are going with the movie, then yes we have the absurd mace, in the books he can actually use it well. However
2) Get another Nazgul to fight him. Let Achilles kill them, then have him suffer from the black breath (and lose his sword)
from
EE

EvilElitest
2008-06-22, 12:35 PM
So EE... if the army of Mordor has Sauron's backing, like in the darkness obscuring the field, then what stops the Greek Gods from lending their own support to the Greeks? If I recall the Iliad properly, Athena, Hera, and Poseidon usually favoured the Greeks. Now, with no Trojans to oppose, I see no reason why the Gods who favoured the Trojans would not now through their lots in with the Greeks, their only worshippers in Middle-Earth. Ares and Apollo and Aphrodite and, most importantly, Zeus. If believe that Sauron's darkness and despair can be counteracted by the Greek Gods. And the Greek Gods tend to be more... proactive than Sauron. Athena would be directly advising heroes like Diomedes or Odysseus, Ares would partake in the battle itself, Poseidon would set the waters of the Anduin against the Orcs in a flood of some kind, Zeus would do the old lightning-bolt thing.

Sauron blotted out the sun before he even knows about the Greeks. Days in advance. You chose to have this set in Pellanor fields, not me. IF you go with that, then the sun is logically blotted out, because Sauron already did it. He isn't trying to influence the battle against the greeks, he is trying to destroy the People of Gondor, and the sun is already blotted out. By setting the battle in such a dramatic position, you have to give the orcs the advantage they already had before the greeks showed up
from
EE

Executor
2008-06-22, 12:36 PM
Yes, the Greeks got caught up in the struggle. But I don't expect the extremely proactive Greek Gods to just stand by and let Sauron do that to their devoted worshippers. And i'm sure Zeus, Hera, Athena, Apollo, Poseidon, Ares and Aphrodite can do SOMETHING about Sauron's spreading darkness and fear in the Greeks. Apollo is Greek God of the Sun after all.

EvilElitest
2008-06-22, 12:40 PM
Yes, the Greeks got caught up in the struggle. But I don't expect the extremely proactive Greek Gods to just stand by and let Sauron do that to their devoted worshippers. And i'm sure Zeus, Hera, Athena, Apollo, Poseidon, Ares and Aphrodite can do SOMETHING about Sauron's spreading darkness and fear in the Greek.

Why? The greek godes put them there for a reason. Sauron isn't doing it to the greeks, he is doing it to hte Gondorians. If the greek gods are sending them into this situation, it must be because they find it more amusing to see who would win and would account for the darkness. Other wise, why not send them into another place or another time?
from
EE

Djinn_in_Tonic
2008-06-22, 12:42 PM
Yes, the Greeks got caught up in the struggle. But I don't expect the extremely proactive Greek Gods to just stand by and let Sauron do that to their devoted worshippers. And i'm sure Zeus, Hera, Athena, Apollo, Poseidon, Ares and Aphrodite can do SOMETHING about Sauron's spreading darkness and fear in the Greek.

I'd go so far as to say that, if Gods are included, the Greek's cannot lose. After all, their gods enter the battlefield, fight alongside the heroes, carry them away from danger, and grant them supernatural powers, never mind slinging lightning, causing earthquakes, etc. Plus Zeus has dominion over FATE and DESTINY. That's going to put the hurt on Mordor.

And darkness? Huh...let's think about Apollo for a minute...:smallbiggrin:

Executor
2008-06-22, 12:42 PM
Ah, I had figured it was some kind of freak portal in some kind of continuum that sent the Greek armada to Middle-Earth's shores. And now the Greek Gods are just looking out for their own, similar to how shepherds watch their flock.

Djinn: We'll exclude Zeus from helping the Greeks for fairnesses sake. But if the Mordorians are being helped by their 'god' Sauron, then one or two Greek Gods should help out as well. Athena and Apollo should do most nicely.

SilentNight
2008-06-22, 12:46 PM
Perhaps they have no power in Middle Earth. Otherwise, I have to agree with Executor, the Greek pantheon is extremely in touch with their worshippers (at least in the myths) compared to others. I find it hard to believe that they would just stand by and watch. Speaking of which, I'd like a little clarification as the thread has diverged a bit. Are we talking the Greeks vs. The entire Pelenor Fields army or the Greeks vs. 250,000 Orcs? Apologies if this makes me an ignorant philistine.

EvilElitest
2008-06-22, 12:46 PM
Ah, I had figured it was some kind of freak portal in some kind of continuum that sent the Greek armada to Middle-Earth's shores. And now the Greek Gods are just looking out for their own, similar to how shepherds watch their flock.

However the Greek gods would have powers of the freak portal. If they are allowing the greeks to fight Sauron, most likely because it is amusing, then that makes sense, and yet they chose a situation where Sauron's magic is already active. If they objected to this situation, they would have sent the greeks to do battle in a different place

Come on executor, you can't take away advantages when you chose the field of play. Other wise, they could take away the nazgul


Any comments on my other points?
from
Ee

Executor
2008-06-22, 12:50 PM
Oh I know EE, Sauron has the field cloaked in darkness to bring despair over both the Gondorrim and now the Greeks, and to give advantages to his orcs and trolls and such. I am arguing that the Greek Gods could possibly counteract it.

Silentnight: We're speaking about the Greek Army of the Trojan War fighting the Morgul-host commanded by the Witch King at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields.

EvilElitest
2008-06-22, 12:53 PM
Oh I know EE, Sauron has the field cloaked in darkness to bring despair over both the Gondorrim and now the Greeks, and to give advantages to his orcs and trolls and such. I am arguing that the Greek Gods could possibly counteract it.

Silentnight: We're speaking about the Greek Army of the Trojan War fighting the Morgul-host commanded by the Witch King at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields.

1) The greeks could (if the even have power in middle earth, i think the Valar would block them from getting involved) but i don't think they would. They put the Greeks into that situation for a reason, IE they must enjoy the idea of watching their people fight blindly (also Apollo is on the Trojans side, he won't help the greeks, and Zeus is neutral
2) Wait, so that counts the easterlings, trolls, Uruk hai, Haradrim, and what not?
from
EE

Djinn_in_Tonic
2008-06-22, 12:54 PM
Come on executor, you can't take away advantages when you chose the field of play. Other wise, they could take away the nazgul

Actually, the Nazgul weren't even included in the beginning...it was only orcs and men and the Witchking (1 nazgul, not the other 8). Read the first post. However, if we allow Nazgul, the advantage shifts to Mordor...until Philoctetes enters the field (which I feel is valid, since we're mentioning the Black Breath, which wasn't actually in the movie).

He's an archer of immense skill, armed with a divine bow...I think he can easily take down anything you throw at him that flies or comes from a distance. With him in the back, Nazgul and trolls and Mumakil become a very small threat indeed.

With regards to the battlefield, Excutor only said it was on the field due to army sizes...he never said what conditions, if any, applied. Finally, it was the movie version, remember? The one where the battle at Gondor was in bright daylight.

SilentNight
2008-06-22, 12:59 PM
Silentnight: We're speaking about the Greek Army of the Trojan War fighting the Morgul-host commanded by the Witch King at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields.

Just checking, I think there was some discussion over whether the OP accounted for the trolls, Haradrim and the like. Which is what I'd like clarification on.

EvilElitest
2008-06-22, 12:59 PM
Actually, the Nazgul weren't even included in the beginning...it was only orcs and men and the Witchking (1 nazgul, not the other 8). Read the first post. However, if we allow Nazgul, the advantage shifts to Mordor...until Philoctetes enters the field (which I feel is valid, since we're mentioning the Black Breath, which wasn't actually in the movie).

He's an archer of immense skill, armed with a divine bow...I think he can easily take down anything you throw at him that flies or comes from a distance. With him in the back, Nazgul and trolls and Mumakil become a very small threat indeed.

1) Actually the black breath was in the movie, extra scenes
2) Sure, but after shoot one down, the others will be smart enough to move away. Also, in the books you can shoot a fell beast down, however in the movie they work fine with tons of arrows sticking out of them



With regards to the battlefield, Excutor only said it was on the field due to army sizes...he never said what conditions, if any, applied. Finally, it was the movie version, remember? The one where the battle at Gondor was in bright daylight.
1) Except Excutor was wrong about the field size. He also did mention it was the force on its way to fight gondor that ran into random greeks
2) Actually, it was in the movie, remember the wizard of Ozz styled thing at minas morgul. Gandalf mentions it to Pippin at the start of the battle. It goes away when Rohan shows up however
from
EE

DraPrime
2008-06-22, 01:04 PM
2) Actually, it was in the movie, remember the wizard of Ozz styled thing at minas morgul. Gandalf mentions it to Pippin at the start of the battle. It goes away when Rohan shows up however
from
EE

Yes. Simply, PJ probably thought that it would be good for the audience to be able to see what the hell was going on. For most of the battle it was just really cloudy in the movie. But filming technique aside, it was supposed to be dark.

EvilElitest
2008-06-22, 03:46 PM
Yes. Simply, PJ probably thought that it would be good for the audience to be able to see what the hell was going on. For most of the battle it was just really cloudy in the movie. But filming technique aside, it was supposed to be dark.

pretty much

Now to restate my miltary option here


now the normal orcs alone number 250000, while the greeks number 240000. At first glance this seems to be a greek advantage, as the Greeks are better fighters. However you forget some things. The trolls, the Uruk hai, the Easterlings, and teh haradrim are there as well, along with the nazgul

And how the battle might commence

Now remember, the Greeks gear is technologically inferior (god weapons aside) to the Orc stuff, who use steel, through a mis mash of it. The orcs also have more archers than the greeks (remember, Paris was considered odd because he used a bow rather than fight honorable with a sword), so the orcs have the range advantage. While a few of the really badass greek archers might hit first, in mass hte orcs will start shooting poisoned arrows first
And you know, the siege weapons? I mean i know they aren't suited to it, but flaming rock from the sky can't hurt you know against the greeks, who haven't seen that before ("Oh bugger, i didn't think of that one. Flaming rocks from teh sky, hmmmmm")

The greeks are better spear throwers, so the orc front ranks will suffer

But recall when the forces meet. THe common greek is better than the common orc, but the orcs don't suck totally, at least this bunch. They have a lot of pike units, and all of their inf entry have shields, so while the greeks will kill them, it will take a little while to kill them. And time favors Sauron, because while the Greeks get tired, he can jut move more men in, and shoot more arrows. Also, trolls. now there were a lot of different types of trolls at the battle, but even the weakest unarmored ones can do a lot of damage to the common greek, and will at least hinder the heros. And most of these heroes have no special protection, the will get tired, and they will eventually die. Also, recall that While the Greeks might be able to dramatically kill the Mumikil, they won't kill all of them before some at least do some major damage with their size and the archers up top. Count in the Warg riders, the Easterlings, and teh Uruk hai, the greeks are in major trouble
from
EE

Mr. Scaly
2008-06-22, 07:31 PM
Just a note for the suggestion that orc archers can't hit the broad side of a Mumak...when thousands upon thousands are firing all at once, there's a very good chance that lucky hits will occur and Achilles will be a pincushion before the battle really starts, particularly since he's a big guy who fights at the front.

EvilElitest
2008-06-22, 07:34 PM
Just a note for the suggestion that orc archers can't hit the broad side of a Mumak...when thousands upon thousands are firing all at once, there's a very good chance that lucky hits will occur and Achilles will be a pincushion before the battle really starts, particularly since he's a big guy who fights at the front.

True, and don't forget dying orcs on teh ground with knives.....or living ones who like to aim for the feet. Orcs are small, he is in trouble there
from
EE

WalkingTarget
2008-06-22, 08:38 PM
1) Actually the black breath was in the movie, extra scenes.

Well, in that Eowyn was "sick" and you see Aragorn tending her left (i.e. broken) arm and putting a damp cloth on her head. The BB wasn't mentioned nor was there any discussion or appearance of athelas in those scenes. Far from falling unconscious right away, she was the one to have the final discussion with Theoden.

Faramir was sick, but there's no mention of what it is exactly, nor is there a scene with Aragorn tending him. Merry is fine almost immediately and even makes it to the battle at the Black Gate in the film.

While the filmmakers probably intended for there to be the BB there, somebody not already familiar with the books wouldn't notice it as there's nothing there to indicate its presence.

(I was really bored today and had nothing better to do, so I just got done with a marathon viewing of all 3 extended editions. :smallbiggrin:)

I'd comment more on the discussion in general, but I see that any points I would make have pretty much already been covered by Djinn and Executor (oh, and WG's comment about the Greeks winning even if they lose: genius)

Djinn_in_Tonic
2008-06-22, 09:10 PM
...and WG's comment about the Greeks winning even if they lose: genius

Damn right. That was a brilliant move there.

"They can take our lives, but they'll never take our AWESOME!"

*ahem*

Sorry. :smallbiggrin:

Executor
2008-06-22, 09:22 PM
..................

I'm sigging that too :smallbiggrin:

Dallas-Dakota
2008-06-22, 09:54 PM
I think the orcs vs. the spartans would be like 300.

EvilElitest
2008-06-22, 09:59 PM
Well, in that Eowyn was "sick" and you see Aragorn tending her left (i.e. broken) arm and putting a damp cloth on her head. The BB wasn't mentioned nor was there any discussion or appearance of athelas in those scenes. Far from falling unconscious right away, she was the one to have the final discussion with Theoden.

Faramir was sick, but there's no mention of what it is exactly, nor is there a scene with Aragorn tending him. Merry is fine almost immediately and even makes it to the battle at the Black Gate in the film.

While the filmmakers probably intended for there to be the BB there, somebody not already familiar with the books wouldn't notice it as there's nothing there to indicate its presence.

(I was really bored today and had nothing better to do, so I just got done with a marathon viewing of all 3 extended editions. :smallbiggrin:)

I'd comment more on the discussion in general, but I see that any points I would make have pretty much already been covered by Djinn and Executor (oh, and WG's comment about the Greeks winning even if they lose: genius)

1) well in the books that go along with the movie they say it was black breath
2) What about my latest point
3) Fair enough, can't argue with WG

from
EE

DraPrime
2008-06-22, 10:41 PM
About the Mumikil, there is one problem. First of all, the Greeks need to figure out that they should go for the eyes. By then the Mumikils will probably already be attacking them, and just smashing tons of Greeks. Now even when they do take a Mumikil down, that thing is HUGE. By then it will probably be in the middle of the Greek army, and when it falls it will crush quite a few soldiers. Not enough to seriously hurt the Greek army, but still, losses are losses. Now once these things are down, the Greeks will have a bunch of HUGE dead animals in the middle of their army. This will cause some hindrances when attempting to maneuver the army, so even when dead the Mumikil will help Mordor. And by the time that happens they will have created an incredible amount of destruction.

Tyrant
2008-06-23, 12:00 AM
I think the orcs vs. the spartans would be like 300.

Except on the field there will be no hole for the Spartans to hold up in. They will simply be surrounded out in the open. They could hold out for a while with the phalanx or some other formation. However, the Orcs have catapaults. The phalanx is great for a lot of things, dodging artillery isn't one of them.

Don Julio Anejo
2008-06-23, 01:00 AM
Okay, let me bring in some real-world tactics into this. I'm assuming we're talking about phalanx-fighting Persian-killing greeks circa 5th century BC rather than the 1200 BC barbarian-like Greeks of the Trojan war (I'm too lazy to write it out here, but these Greeks lose by a mile. They have neither the equipment nor the tactics or training of later Greeks. They don't have Spartans the way we see them either because Sparta didn't become militarized until around the 6th century BC, it was only a minor city-state at the time, only important in the Iliad because Menelaus was its king and Helen its queen).

So, phalanx it is. Now, Greeks fought in a hedgehog like formation with spears sticking out at the front, with two rows of soldiers able to engage the enemy (more for Macedonian pezhetairoi pikemen but if we use these as someone wanted, we might as well throw Hetairoi to smash the flanks of the orc host and have Alexander as the Greek CINC). Big advantage against orcs, most of whom are sword-wielding.

Also big advantage against missiles. Why? Because the most orc archery will do is make Greek shields heavy, killing the occasional man when an arrow hits in the face or when a poisoned arrow pierces the shield and hits the arm. Everything else is protected by a giant shield. And that's assuming Greeks do nothing but stand there and take missiles. Battle of Plataea, 479BC. A year after Thermopylae in fact. I'll skip the details of the battle, but the idea is this - the Greeks get tired of taking fire from Persian archers and charge the Persian lines. If taking fire from catapults, they would do it even earlier. Then the orcs can't use their ranged weapons so they wouldn't hit their own soldiers (and if they keep firing, well, all the better for Greeks - they arrows will hit Greeks in the front where their armor is strongest and they're protected by a shield and orcs in the back).

Elephants - big problem BUT ONLY IF YOU CHARGE THEM IN THE BACK OF THE GREEK FORMATION. Otherwise, they're just as likely to trample their own lines, unless the first thing orcs do is throw their elephants at the Greeks, but the battle in the movie clearly showed elephants only showing up to counter the Rohirrim (works great btw because horses are afraid of elephants). Trolls different story. They aren't much use head-on against a phalanx. Greek spears were about 3 meters long. That's almost two meters of spear sticking out at the front, with another layer a meter behind it. Trolls would be poked in a dozen places by the time they get to the soldiers. True, the first one or two lines will probably be overrun due to sheer momentum, but the trolls will be too dead to do anymore damage.

So divine intervention, demigod heroes and immortal witch-king Nazgul aside, Greeks should be able to win this because their army counters the orc one pretty well and they tend to have superior tactics rather than shoot a boatload of arrows or charge in a disorganized mob head on.

warty goblin
2008-06-23, 01:17 AM
With all of this talk about catapults going on, I feel required to point out that neither in the book, movie, or as far as I can tell in history were siege catapults actually used against formations of infantry, excepting the Romans' use of Onagers. Orcs, I also think it incipient to point out, are not Romans, nor are Onagers capable of throwing rocks over the walls of someplace like Minas Tirith.

Also on the chances of Achilles being hit in the heel- I have been involved in a fair number of melees over the years, often with multiple people smaller than myself, and I don't think I have ever been hit in the heel, and I am by no means an Achilles. The chances of scoring such a hit are likely even further reduced against a character who is described about a zillion times as Swift Footed or similar. Finally I would like to point out that Achilles generally fights with a spear of abnormal size, meaning that most orcs wouldn't even get to sword/knife range before getting cut up, and pretty much all of the people Achilles kills in the Iliad go down pretty much instantly with very little thrashing about or last minute strikes.

On the other hand there is precident for orcs dragging down a great warrior by simple weight of numbers- it worked on Hurin after all, but only after he had chopped his way through Gothmog's entire troll bodyguard first.

EvilElitest
2008-06-23, 01:22 PM
Okay, let me bring in some real-world tactics into this. I'm assuming we're talking about phalanx-fighting Persian-killing greeks circa 5th century BC rather than the 1200 BC barbarian-like Greeks of the Trojan war (I'm too lazy to write it out here, but these Greeks lose by a mile. They have neither the equipment nor the tactics or training of later Greeks. They don't have Spartans the way we see them either because Sparta didn't become militarized until around the 6th century BC, it was only a minor city-state at the time, only important in the Iliad because Menelaus was its king and Helen its queen).

So, phalanx it is. Now, Greeks fought in a hedgehog like formation with spears sticking out at the front, with two rows of soldiers able to engage the enemy (more for Macedonian pezhetairoi pikemen but if we use these as someone wanted, we might as well throw Hetairoi to smash the flanks of the orc host and have Alexander as the Greek CINC). Big advantage against orcs, most of whom are sword-wielding.

You forget however, that orcs are using iron swords and armor, while they have shields. Orcs aren't great, but they aren't totally useless. Also there are orcs pike men


Also big advantage against missiles. Why? Because the most orc archery will do is make Greek shields heavy, killing the occasional man when an arrow hits in the face or when a poisoned arrow pierces the shield and hits the arm. Everything else is protected by a giant shield. And that's assuming Greeks do nothing but stand there and take missiles. Battle of Plataea, 479BC. A year after Thermopylae in fact. I'll skip the details of the battle, but the idea is this - the Greeks get tired of taking fire from Persian archers and charge the Persian lines. If taking fire from catapults, they would do it even earlier. Then the orcs can't use their ranged weapons so they wouldn't hit their own soldiers (and if they keep firing, well, all the better for Greeks - they arrows will hit Greeks in the front where their armor is strongest and they're protected by a shield and orcs in the back).

What if the orcs use range and melee at the same time. The orcs don't care if they hit their own guys as long as they can cause massive damage to the greeks. Move the trolls in with the orcs, and when you run out of orcs, send in Uruk hai (who use really big bows and Crossbows)


Elephants - big problem BUT ONLY IF YOU CHARGE THEM IN THE BACK OF THE GREEK FORMATION. Otherwise, they're just as likely to trample their own lines, unless the first thing orcs do is throw their elephants at the Greeks, but the battle in the movie clearly showed elephants only showing up to counter the Rohirrim (works great btw because horses are afraid of elephants). Trolls different story. They aren't much use head-on against a phalanx. Greek spears were about 3 meters long. That's almost two meters of spear sticking out at the front, with another layer a meter behind it. Trolls would be poked in a dozen places by the time they get to the soldiers. True, the first one or two lines will probably be overrun due to sheer momentum, but the trolls will be too dead to do anymore damage.

1) trolls have tough hide, armor, and can take a lot. I don't doubt that trolls will die, but they will bring a good deal of greeks down with them, and i mean a good dead of greeks, one hit is like four or five guys, more if you use those pikes the attack trolls have. Some throw stones as well
2) The Giant elephaunts, well, remember, the Wk doesn't care about his men, remember in the movie, did you see the size of those tusks? The could smash through a shield wall. They all might die and trample a lot of their own men certainly, but if they can punch a hole in the wall, a good job the Wk would say


Warty Goblin, two points

1) However the Catapults of the Wk have super long range and hell fire. Why not use it just to scare them, i don't think the Greeks had ever seen that kind of artillery before
2) Well i've been in mass brawl before as well, and i don't know if i got hit in the heel, but i wouldn't feel it. Remember small target, i tend to focus on the bruises on my arms and chest.
from
EE

Don Julio Anejo
2008-06-23, 03:33 PM
You forget however, that orcs are using iron swords and armor, while they have shields. Orcs aren't great, but they aren't totally useless. Also there are orcs pike men
Iron, I give you that. As for the pikemen - ALL Greeks are pikemen. Orcs only have a contingent. And chances are, orc pikemen are probably closer to the swiss square than a Greek phalanx - I doubt they're meant to fight heavy infantry, more likely to resist cavalry charges reminiscent of the Rohirrim.

What if the orcs use range and melee at the same time. The orcs don't care if they hit their own guys as long as they can cause massive damage to the greeks. Move the trolls in with the orcs, and when you run out of orcs, send in Uruk hai (who use really big bows and Crossbows)

One major problem. If enemy troops are a good distance away, you can shoot in a shallow trajectory and your shots will be fairly accurate. If the enemy troops are close to you and your troops are in front, you have to fire pretty much straight up. When you do that, any accuracy your shots have go out the window. They still won't do much damage to the Greeks, especially since they are hitting from the front, but they will do damage to orcs since they'll be hitting from the back. And not only that, but the orc morale will go down the drain from this, since they're dying not just from friendly fire, but also from friendly fire that you can't even see coming. So basically it'll make it that much easier for the Greeks if orcs are stupid enough to do that.

1) trolls have tough hide, armor, and can take a lot. I don't doubt that trolls will die, but they will bring a good deal of greeks down with them, and i mean a good dead of greeks, one hit is like four or five guys, more if you use those pikes the attack trolls have. Some throw stones as well

Stones - yeah. Sucks to be hit by them or even be anywhere nearby. The only problem is that there won't be anywhere near enough stones to go around. Also, as I said. First two, maybe three ranks will be dead after a troll charge. But when you have 140,000 people and your front is 1 kilometer wide, that makes for a line 84 men deep (assuming a dense formation with each person taking 60cm). It'll be deeper if the formation is looser than what I assumed.

2) The Giant elephaunts, well, remember, the Wk doesn't care about his men, remember in the movie, did you see the size of those tusks? The could smash through a shield wall. They all might die and trample a lot of their own men certainly, but if they can punch a hole in the wall, a good job the Wk would say
Elephants is IMO the only threat to Greeks here (again, divine intervention, demigods and Nazgul aside).


1) However the Catapults of the Wk have super long range and hell fire. Why not use it just to scare them, i don't think the Greeks had ever seen that kind of artillery before
EE
1 or 2 volleys before Greeks charge, rendering the artillery useless. After that you're just as likely to hit your own men.

EvilElitest
2008-06-23, 04:22 PM
Iron, I give you that. As for the pikemen - ALL Greeks are pikemen. Orcs only have a contingent. And chances are, orc pikemen are probably closer to the swiss square than a Greek phalanx - I doubt they're meant to fight heavy infantry, more likely to resist cavalry charges reminiscent of the Rohirrim.

Actually, the mordor orcs have a few types of pike men, but your right they are square grouped. Through you some units with Pole Axes (serrated and some hooked) hooks, normal spears, Halberds, pole maces, glaives and pikes, but i see your point. Still, they will do something, as a spear wall against a phalex isn't great, but they will be annoying.

Also most of the orcs are swordsmen with shields, backed up by Mace and axe dudes with shields (some light infantry using swords, maces, spixed clubs and axes, sometimes using double axes) can back them up. Now as most of them are shield dudes, they will take a little while to kill for each greek. As hoards of orcs are fighting against them, with spears backing them up, the greek shield wall will eventually break at a point, allowing the light infentry to get inside. Throw in trolls and Uruk hai, and you got a real problem. In fact, they ahve a warg rider calvery that will take advantage of any break


One major problem. If enemy troops are a good distance away, you can shoot in a shallow trajectory and your shots will be fairly accurate. If the enemy troops are close to you and your troops are in front, you have to fire pretty much straight up. When you do that, any accuracy your shots have go out the window. They still won't do much damage to the Greeks, especially since they are hitting from the front, but they will do damage to orcs since they'll be hitting from the back. And not only that, but the orc morale will go down the drain from this, since they're dying not just from friendly fire, but also from friendly fire that you can't even see coming. So basically it'll make it that much easier for the Greeks if orcs are stupid enough to do that.
1) Could the orcs shoot before they engage. With troll stone throwers, catapults, and the poison, the greeks will lose guys before the Infantry even get there
2) However the archers can move in and then shoot up (you know, from the six or seventh rank) making much more of their arrows hit the greeks then their own guys. Also the dudes in the front ranks, particularly the heros will be exposed during the fighting
3) I recall most of the greeks in the Illida preferred chariots. I don't think they could make one giant unit like that
4) don't forget that the orcs moral is fine as long as teh Wk is alive.



Stones - yeah. Sucks to be hit by them or even be anywhere nearby. The only problem is that there won't be anywhere near enough stones to go around. Also, as I said. First two, maybe three ranks will be dead after a troll charge. But when you have 140,000 people and your front is 1 kilometer wide, that makes for a line 84 men deep (assuming a dense formation with each person taking 60cm). It'll be deeper if the formation is looser than what I assumed.
1) I don't know, they had a whole city of stone to choose from (the ruined city behind them remember) and catapults with burning pitch
2) However once the break is made, the warg riders and the orc hoards will try their best to keep it broken and screw up the entire unit
3) Remember, the assult trolls (the ones that break down the gate, maybe 30 or 40) are wearing armor and using giant maces, and they fight as a unit. So you have a whole unit of huge trolls smashing through the lines. The greek heros might be able to drive them back and close it, but at a great cost, and then the other more numerous trolls come into play (attack trolls with giant halberds, mordor mountain trolls with huge spiked clubs, mountain trolls with tree trunks, the giant troll who pulled ground (giants by troll standards), battle trolls with swords, hill trolls with hammers and the dreaded Olag hai with Shields and Hammers. I admit the greek heros can and will bring down a lot of them, but they are a lot of troll who can do a good deal of damage, discounting lesser monsters. Also if worst comes to worst, the drummer, catapult, and tower trolls can attack with charges, thrown rocks or their firsts. Don't forget the four "great beasts" that pull Grond. I admit the heros can and will kill most of these guys, but think about the greeks they will bring down


Elephants is IMO the only threat to Greeks here (again, divine intervention, demigods and Nazgul aside).
1) And don't forget, by the time the Mumikil show up, (presuming the greeks are able to bring them all down) the trolls, orcs and uruk hai have already been fighting for a while. Follow them up with the Haradrim and Easterlings, with what ever orcs are left and.......
2) The nazgul will also be very dangerous as they are demoralizing and shooting the greeks. a few of them might even swoop in there themselves, through only if they feel the greeks are on the verge of breaking or their guys need help.


1 or 2 volleys before Greeks charge, rendering the artillery useless. After that you're just as likely to hit your own men.
More then that, they have really long range, they are able to shoot the first few levels of gondor while staying out of arrow fire. Also if the greeks charge, then they are giving up their main advantage, of their defense.


from
EE

Don Julio Anejo
2008-06-23, 04:51 PM
I don't want to quote the entire post, so I'll answer in chunks.

The difference between pikemen and spearmen (aside from the length of the spear) is that spears could be controlled. Pikes were usually fixed, for example against the ground. In any case, they couldn't be easily used, for example to poke an individual soldier. So at best, they will be annoying and will hold back Greeks with their shorter spears (I don't remember exactly how long the pikes were in the movie and I don't have it, but I'm assuming pikes are longer by definition).

Gaps in the line are exploited by heavy infantry, not essentially cavalry. The point of cavalry is mobility - to harass the enemy, attack flanks, charge, etc. If you get your cavalry stuck inside a formation of heavy infantry with spears, you get dead cavalry really fast.

Orcs could shoot before the line can engage, I'm not denying that. But the effective range of a bow is at best a few hundred meters (let's say 300, since you're not trying to be accurate, you're just trying to hit the formation). A trained person can run 100 meters in something like 12 seconds. Let's make it 16-20 since they're wearing armor and trying to maintain formation. So you get 40 seconds to close in with the orcs. That's what... 4 volleys? Maybe 6 if hoplites run slower. Also, if archers move up, they still have to fire in a steep arc (it'll be even steeper actually from the 6th or 7th row). There's a very good reason archers were never used to fire at soldiers who were already engaged.

Chariots - it's commonly accepted they were used as battle taxis in ancient Hellas. APC's if you will. Heroes would drive them around to get to where they wanted, dismount and then fight on foot. In fact, at the time of the Trojan war, people didn't even know you could ride horses until the Scythians figured out you could around 8th century BC.

Morale - I'm discounting paranormal factors like the Witch King or heroes in my post. I'll leave it up to you guys to discuss this, I'm merely talking about general tactics.

Rocks - okay, I forgot about the ruined city. Although in the movie I only remember an occasional troll chucking rocks, they weren't Cyclopses of Heroes of Might and Magic series. Trolls in general - were there really armored trolls in the movie? I can't remember. I know there were in the book, but the OP specifically designated the movie as the battleground.

As for catapults - you're forgetting it's not modern artillery with built in ballistic chips and the like. It's big wooden things that chuck giant rocks (rocks, not uniform shells). They would be very lucky to hit a formation, even such a large one. And they also take a very long time to recharge (like half an hour long). It doesn't matter very much if all you're trying to do is smash walls, since you have all the time you need, but against a moving formation they aren't particularly useful thanks to their crappy accuracy.

Defending helps, but the thing is - the phalanx is an offensive formation. The whole idea is to charge the enemy and push them back while at the same time poking them with spears. They won't push anyone back, there are just too many men here, but the Greeks don't lose anything by attacking either. And the only orcs that do get an advantage are pikemen (an inherently defensive formation).

Mr. Scaly
2008-06-23, 06:54 PM
The problem with the phalanx though is that every man is dressed in heavy armour (or as heavy as bronze can be I guess) and carrying long spears. Nobody can 'charge' very fast in that kind of get up, Iliad or no Iliad.

Also the phalanx wasn't invincible. The big weak point was in the flank where the end man didn't have a comrade's shield to protect him. Once he was killed the rest tended to fall in succession.

Don Julio Anejo
2008-06-23, 07:54 PM
Bronze armor isn't much heavier than what for example modern soldiers wear in combat. And you can run perfectly well in it for a few hundred meters as history demonstrated (at aforementioned Plataea for example, Pausanius made the Greeks run for almost a kilometer to engage the Persians as fast as possible), closing within a matter of minutes.

The phalanx's main weakness isn't the flank (when you kill the guy on the extreme right who isn't protected, all you do is kill that guy, there's a guy behind him and the guy to his left). It's the rear. If wargs riders or elephants charge in the rear, the Greeks are toast. Even if infantry attacks there, the Greeks are still toast. Because unlike legionnaires for example, the hoplites can't turn around and be effective 1 on 1.

Also, you can always set up your phalanx in a crescent with the center sticking out, for example. Alexander did something similar at Gaugamela - he advanced the line of pezhetairoi towards the right flank of Darius and at the same time "brought in" his left flank so the army was in something of an inverted L shape.

And also, usually the best soldiers (the Spartiates, Sacred Band, Hypaspistai, etc) were placed on the extreme right to compensate for this problem.

Mr. Scaly
2008-06-23, 08:11 PM
Bronze armor isn't much heavier than what for example modern soldiers wear in combat. And you can run perfectly well in it for a few hundred meters as history demonstrated (at aforementioned Plataea for example, Pausanius made the Greeks run for almost a kilometer to engage the Persians as fast as possible), closing within a matter of minutes.

Plataea was centuries after the Trojan war, in which they usually used chariots to close the distance then reassemble once they got there. So they're not going to close with the orcs already in formation unless they stop a distance away and give them a chance to use their long range weapons.


The phalanx's main weakness isn't the flank (when you kill the guy on the extreme right who isn't protected, all you do is kill that guy, there's a guy behind him and the guy to his left). It's the rear. If wargs riders or elephants charge in the rear, the Greeks are toast. Even if infantry attacks there, the Greeks are still toast. Because unlike legionnaires for example, the hoplites can't turn around and be effective 1 on 1.

But if the man on the far right falls the man he was protecting is exposed. Then he dies and the next guy is exposed. That's how Greek hoplites fought each other.


Also, you can always set up your phalanx in a crescent with the center sticking out, for example. Alexander did something similar at Gaugamela - he advanced the line of pezhetairoi towards the right flank of Darius and at the same time "brought in" his left flank so the army was in something of an inverted L shape.

Alexander also had centuries of phalanx tactics to draw upon.


And also, usually the best soldiers (the Spartiates, Sacred Band, Hypaspistai, etc) were placed on the extreme right to compensate for this problem.

Good point.

EvilElitest
2008-06-23, 10:01 PM
I don't want to quote the entire post, so I'll answer in chunks.

The difference between pikemen and spearmen (aside from the length of the spear) is that spears could be controlled. Pikes were usually fixed, for example against the ground. In any case, they couldn't be easily used, for example to poke an individual soldier. So at best, they will be annoying and will hold back Greeks with their shorter spears (I don't remember exactly how long the pikes were in the movie and I don't have it, but I'm assuming pikes are longer by definition).

Ah you confusing the Uruk of Saruman (who use pikes suited only for defending themselves from charges) with Saurons orcs (who use all types of pole arms, mostly pole axes, halberds, glaives, along with spears, pole maces, hooks, and some traditional pikes. Remember, they weren't going to fight calvery but infantry at Minas Tirith (i double checked my books today, they are shown using mostly pole axes and serrated spears. don't forget axe men and what not, orcs are stronger than normal people


Gaps in the line are exploited by heavy infantry, not essentially cavalry. The point of cavalry is mobility - to harass the enemy, attack flanks, charge, etc. If you get your cavalry stuck inside a formation of heavy infantry with spears, you get dead cavalry really fast.
Sorry, i misspoke, i mean if they ever able to break the line they have haradrim horsemen and orc warg riders to put to use. And i mean, wargs are huge. That can't be good for moral



Orcs could shoot before the line can engage, I'm not denying that. But the effective range of a bow is at best a few hundred meters (let's say 300, since you're not trying to be accurate, you're just trying to hit the formation). A trained person can run 100 meters in something like 12 seconds. Let's make it 16-20 since they're wearing armor and trying to maintain formation. So you get 40 seconds to close in with the orcs. That's what... 4 volleys? Maybe 6 if hoplites run slower. Also, if archers move up, they still have to fire in a steep arc (it'll be even steeper actually from the 6th or 7th row). There's a very good reason archers were never used to fire at soldiers who were already engaged.
1) your right, Mordor Orcs have a range of 100 yards, however a lot of orcs have bows, and they are poisoned
2) Uruk hai however have a range of 200yards with their super bows
3) The siege machines have a range of 250 yards
4) well if the orcs open fire for a few volly before the first ranks make it, remember poisoned arrows and LOTS of them, that will be nasty. And your saying the greeks will charge a force with larger numbers? What? Then the orcs can just make a spear wall, backed by a shield wall, with archer support. the Greek's main advantage (heros aside) is their defense. Why would they charge? It gives mordor another advantage.



Chariots - it's commonly accepted they were used as battle taxis in ancient Hellas. APC's if you will. Heroes would drive them around to get to where they wanted, dismount and then fight on foot. In fact, at the time of the Trojan war, people didn't even know you could ride horses until the Scythians figured out you could around 8th century BC.

Fair enough, but in the poem i'm pretty sure they use the chariots in battle


Morale - I'm discounting paranormal factors like the Witch King or heroes in my post. I'll leave it up to you guys to discuss this, I'm merely talking about general tactics.
fair enough


Rocks - okay, I forgot about the ruined city. Although in the movie I only remember an occasional troll chucking rocks, they weren't Cyclopses of Heroes of Might and Magic series. Trolls in general - were there really armored trolls in the movie? I can't remember. I know there were in the book, but the OP specifically designated the movie as the battleground.
1) I'm using the cannon of the move based sources, which stats that there were troll rock hurlers. Most of them were loading the catapults the whole time, but still. We had a lot of trolls, here are the types
1)assault trolls
The elite of the elite trolls, these guys have armored hide, and wear the troll version of full plate. They use giant maces and were used to storm the gate after it fell. Around 30 or 40 alltogether.
2) attack trolls. They guys are the toughest none assult non olag hai trolls. Not as trained as the assult, nor as tough as the Olag hai, they are still extremly dangerous more standard guys. They use giant halberds and swords. They basically run around the first level of gondor breaking groups
3) Catapult troll. No armor, no weapons, these guys throw rocks and load catapults
4) tower trolls. While stronger than the average troll, and lightly armored, they aren't fighters, and push the siege towers. They don't use weapons, but their fists are tough
5) Drummer trolls. These guys are armored, and can drive their men into a berserk frenzy and care enemy moral. They don't fight if they can help it, i suppose they could charge blindly
6) Mordor Mountain Trolls, just general tough guys, using tree trunks and wearing amor
7) Hill trolls, smaller, tougher with large hammers
8) Olag Hai
9) Battle trolls, the dudes with hte swords.


As for catapults - you're forgetting it's not modern artillery with built in ballistic chips and the like. It's big wooden things that chuck giant rocks (rocks, not uniform shells). They would be very lucky to hit a formation, even such a large one. And they also take a very long time to recharge (like half an hour long). It doesn't matter very much if all you're trying to do is smash walls, since you have all the time you need, but against a moving formation they aren't particularly useful thanks to their crappy accuracy.

not in LOTRS, thank you weapon and warfare. The trolls reload it and so its rate of fire is a lot quicker. Also, while they amazingly aren't accurate, they are pretty good considering their reload time.



Defending helps, but the thing is - the phalanx is an offensive formation. The whole idea is to charge the enemy and push them back while at the same time poking them with spears. They won't push anyone back, there are just too many men here, but the Greeks don't lose anything by attacking either. And the only orcs that do get an advantage are pikemen (an inherently defensive formation).

But what if the WK's army, just......backs away. You know, they see the greeks, and move back shooting until the elephants can attack

Just one question, considering this is the Illiad, would the Greeks really be using a giant phalanx? I don't think they did that in the poem. anyways
from
EE

Don Julio Anejo
2008-06-23, 11:13 PM
@ EvilElitist and Mr. Scaly: no, the Greeks wouldn't be using a Phalanx. Around 1200 BC they fought as a disorganized mob that came down to mostly single combat, and I mentioned this in my first post. But it's just no fun since this way the Greeks don't stand a chance even with their demigod heroes. And everyone was talking about the phalanx and the Spartiates, so I decided to talk about these.

Ah you confusing the Uruk of Saruman (who use pikes suited only for defending themselves from charges) with Saurons orcs (who use all types of pole arms, mostly pole axes, halberds, glaives, along with spears, pole maces, hooks, and some traditional pikes. Remember, they weren't going to fight calvery but infantry at Minas Tirith (i double checked my books today, they are shown using mostly pole axes and serrated spears. don't forget axe men and what not, orcs are stronger than normal people
I would say axemen are the biggest threat to Greeks, not pikemen. Axes go through armor shields like a knife through butter.


But what if the WK's army, just......backs away. You know, they see the greeks, and move back shooting until the elephants can attack
Then the Greeks are screwed, beat by better tactics. It would work even better if you only pulled in your center while charging the elephants into the Greek center and at the same time doing a double envelopment on the wings.

4) well if the orcs open fire for a few volly before the first ranks make it, remember poisoned arrows and LOTS of them, that will be nasty. And your saying the greeks will charge a force with larger numbers? What? Then the orcs can just make a spear wall, backed by a shield wall, with archer support. the Greek's main advantage (heros aside) is their defense. Why would they charge? It gives mordor another advantage.

The orcs have missile weapons and artillery, the Greeks - no (well, not enough to make a difference). They lose more by standing around doing nothing than by charging. If the orcs make a spear wall (which is basically the same thing as a phalanx), the Greeks would feel right at home since that's how they fought anyway. Then it's going to be a meatgrinder, where Greeks would probably win other factors aside.

Also, poison arrows only do damage if they actually wound someone, otherwise they just get stuck in shields or bounce off armor.

On trolls: Fair enough. If the trolls are like that, Greeks on their own don't stand a chance and I guess the battle would then come down to whether heroes can counter the trolls successfully.

Alexander also had centuries of phalanx tactics to draw upon.
Alexander was also the most brilliant general in history, except maybe Napoleon and Genghis Khan, but Agamemnon probably isn't that stupid either, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to take back the Mycenaean throne and make Mycenae the most powerful city in Greece at the time.

Plataea was centuries after the Trojan war, in which they usually used chariots to close the distance then reassemble once they got there. So they're not going to close with the orcs already in formation unless they stop a distance away and give them a chance to use their long range weapons.
Again, real Greeks from the Trojan war don't stand a chance anyway.

Also - the only conceivable use for chariots at the time was as archer platforms. Scythes weren't going to be invented for centuries (Assyrians I think were the ones to do it, that's around 7-8th centuries BC), and even then, they're useless against dense formations holding their ground.

EvilElitest
2008-06-23, 11:25 PM
@ EvilElitist and Mr. Scaly: no, the Greeks wouldn't be using a Phalanx. Around 1200 BC they fought as a disorganized mob that came down to mostly single combat, and I mentioned this in my first post. But it's just no fun since this way the Greeks don't stand a chance even with their demigod heroes. And everyone was talking about the phalanx and the Spartiates, so I decided to talk about these.

Oh fair enough, spirited discussion, i applauded you. you certainly have made this interesting


I would say axemen are the biggest threat to Greeks, not pikemen. Axes go through armor shields like a knife through butter.

well maybe half the orcs are using axes (at least of those in melee) because axes are easier to make and use


Then the Greeks are screwed, beat by better tactics. It would work even better if you only pulled in your center while charging the elephants into the Greek center and at the same time doing a double envelopment on the wings.
hmmm, i wonder if hte Wk would do that through

Just a question, would iron tipped arrows do much against a bronze breastplate?


The orcs have missile weapons and artillery, the Greeks - no (well, not enough to make a difference). They lose more by standing around doing nothing than by charging. If the orcs make a spear wall (which is basically the same thing as a phalanx), the Greeks would feel right at home since that's how they fought anyway. Then it's going to be a meatgrinder, where Greeks would probably win other factors aside.
Hmm, so the greeks need to attack, and as of such they would destroy the pike men, even those who use pole axes with little diffaculty, then engage teh axe and sword men


Also, poison arrows only do damage if they actually wound someone, otherwise they just get stuck in shields or bounce off armor.

True, but a wound they would otherwise shrug off will be a big problem


On trolls: Fair enough. If the trolls are like that, Greeks on their own don't stand a chance and I guess the battle would then come down to whether heroes can counter the trolls successfully.
alright


Alexander was also the most brilliant general in history, except maybe Napoleon and Genghis Khan, but Agamemnon probably isn't that stupid either, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to take back the Mycenaean throne and make Mycenae the most powerful city in Greece at the time.
Again, real Greeks from the Trojan war don't stand a chance anyway.
1) fair enough
2) and Napoleon was amazing



Also - the only conceivable use for chariots at the time was as archer platforms. Scythes weren't going to be invented for centuries (Assyrians I think were the ones to do it, that's around 7-8th centuries BC), and even then, they're useless against dense formations holding their ground.
Ah, they seem to use them to charge head on in the poem, but to be fair, it is a poem
from
EE

Mr. Scaly
2008-06-24, 01:49 PM
@ EvilElitist and Mr. Scaly: no, the Greeks wouldn't be using a Phalanx. Around 1200 BC they fought as a disorganized mob that came down to mostly single combat, and I mentioned this in my first post. But it's just no fun since this way the Greeks don't stand a chance even with their demigod heroes. And everyone was talking about the phalanx and the Spartiates, so I decided to talk about these.

Ah, I see. Plus Real Greeks probably didn't jump to the ground and recite their family history before fighting. :smallbiggrin:


Alexander was also the most brilliant general in history, except maybe Napoleon and Genghis Khan, but Agamemnon probably isn't that stupid either, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to take back the Mycenaean throne and make Mycenae the most powerful city in Greece at the time.
Again, real Greeks from the Trojan war don't stand a chance anyway.

My vote goes to Genghis Khan. You just have to tip your hat to the guy who wipes out an enemy force of 40,000 men...as a diversion.


Also - the only conceivable use for chariots at the time was as archer platforms. Scythes weren't going to be invented for centuries (Assyrians I think were the ones to do it, that's around 7-8th centuries BC), and even then, they're useless against dense formations holding their ground.

LotR orcs have a bad record against horsemen though. Especially movie orcs. Seriously...how does a heavy cavalry charge break through a fortified pikeman position?

Executor
2008-06-26, 10:54 AM
On the phalanx: The phalanx is not a defensive formation, although it works very, very well in that capacity. No, the power of the phalanx lies in the shock of it's attack, of thousands of tight-packed men in heavy armour smashing into the enemy line. I am of course speaking on the earlier spear phalanx of Classical Greece, the pike phalanx of the Hellenistic Greece of Alexander's day was something else entirely. The hoplite phalanx of the Classical Era was a formation in which the hoplites would line up in ranks in close order. The soldiers would overlap their shields, and the first few ranks of soldiers would project their spears out over the first rank of shields. The phalanx therefore presented a shield wall and a mass of spear points to the enemy, making frontal assaults much more difficult. It also allowed a higher proportion of the soldiers to be actively engaged in combat at a given time (rather than just those in the front rank). The phalanx would begin the battle walking towards their enemy slowing, possibly the sounds of flutes or the singing of their city-state's battle-hymms (with the exception of the Spartiates who were known to go into battle dead-silent). As they moved forward, closer to the enemy formation, they would begin to jog, picking up speed and momentum. When they were just a short distance away, they charged and would smash into the mass of the enemy, the weight of men and arms causing a great shock effect. This would most likely by the phalanx used by the Greek warriors of the Trojan War, as it is the earliest known phalanx.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6f/Stele_of_Vultures_detail_01a.jpg
This Sumerian stele is the earliest known depiction of a phalanx formation, it dates to circa 2450 B.C. Indeed, the first Greek mention comes from Homer, φαλαγξ, used to describe organized infantry fighting en masse, to differentiate the battle from the single duels between the heroes. Using the classic hoplite phalanx, I believe the Greek army would cause great damage to the Morgul-host. The Gondorrim and Rohirrim that Orcs are used to fighting are more individual warriors than trained soldiers, they seem to have no talent for formation-fighting and mostly take on the enemy one-to-one. This makes sense as Tolkien's inspiration for these peoples mostly came from early Medieval sources, Anglo-Saxons and Normans and such. And it is from that warrior tradition, not the soldierly tradition of Antiquity, than the Gondorrim and Rohirrim take their valour. Facing hardened soldiers fighting in mass formations will be a challenge for the Orcs and Evil Men, though their beasts like Trolls and Mumakil will possibly counteract that.

hamishspence
2008-06-26, 11:02 AM
So, the phalanx is like an on-foot version of the heavy cavalry wedge, a shock attack.

True defensive formation would be more like the Scottish schiltrom.

Executor
2008-06-26, 11:25 AM
Essentially. But unlike the cavalry wedge, the phalanx was also a potent defensive formation, as the Persians at Thermopylae found out. I'm just noting that the shock of it's attack was where it's real power in a field battle lay.

hamishspence
2008-06-26, 11:28 AM
was that use ever redone after the Greeks? Romans had testudo formation, but I'm guessing they nver used it in conjunction with charging and many spears.

Executor
2008-06-26, 11:50 AM
After the Classical era, generals like Epaminondas, Phillip of Macedon and, most famously, Alexander, modified the phalanx to create the Macedonian pike phalanx.. Rather than a seven-foot long spear, the Macedonians had an eighteen-foot long pike, the shields became smaller and the formations became deeper. The concept of the pike phalanx was that of a forest of spear points rather than a wall of shields.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Makedonische_phalanx.png

The length of the sarissa, the pike of the Macedonians, allowed up to five ranks of spears to project in front of the front rank, while the rest of the soldiers elevated their pikes upwards to offer some deflection against arrows. The range of the sarissa allowed the phalangites to kill at a farther range than the hoplites. Thus they did not have to smash into the enemy with such speed to be effective. Instead of charging like hoplites, phalangites would move forward at a slow, measured advance, maintaining unit cohesion was everything, never did they increase speed to a jog and then a charge like the earlier spear phalanx. They would move into the enemy infantry and begin their dreadful business of push of pike, stabbing in unison into the mass of the enemy.

hamishspence
2008-06-26, 12:07 PM
and the push of pike lasted a long time: at least up to English Civil war and beyond. At what point did guns become good enough to obsolete the push of pike?

Executor
2008-06-26, 12:21 PM
Well the pike was something of an on-and-off weapon throughout European history. In Antiquity, it was superceded by the superior tactical flexibility of the sword-and-javelin armed Roman Legions. Cavalry made the Roman legionaries obsolete with the invention of the stirrup. Feudalism made the training of professional citizen-armies of the Roman style impractical. It was against this background that the armoured Knight on horseback came to dominate the battlefield. Armies of that era tended to be smaller, centered around an elite cadre of mounted knights in armour. When large nations began to develop once more in the late Medieval, starting around the Hundred Years War, the armies of trained citizens began to return. The pike returned as a prominent weapon of war due to it's efficiency against mounted men like knights and how easy it was to train men to use a pike properly in formation. It was also in this period that the arquebus, the first actually efficient firearm was developed. But the slow speed of reloading meant that arquebusiers had to be attached to squares of pikemen for their own safety, both from enemy pikemen and from cavalry. It was the development of the flintlock musket that signalled the final end for purely hand-to-hand infantry like pikemen, as the muskets rate of fire (3 shots per minute, compared to the arquebus' 1) made the blocks of pikemen positive deathtraps. The invention of the socket bayonet combined pike and gun into one weapon and from that point onward the firearm-armed infantry dominated the battlefields of Europe and the world.

Ossian
2008-06-26, 12:44 PM
Ah, this thread is just too sweeeet....thanks thatnk and thanks to the OP.

Ossian

DraPrime
2008-06-26, 01:29 PM
Even if the Greeks do a phalanx, those will easily be broken apart by Mumakil. Those things are huge, and the Greeks will simply crumble under them. Once the first break is made, the trolls can move in and continue destroying the weakspots in the line, while the orcs charge in to finally make the battle HUGE.

Oslecamo
2008-06-26, 02:35 PM
Even if the Greeks do a phalanx, those will easily be broken apart by Mumakil. Those things are huge, and the Greeks will simply crumble under them. Once the first break is made, the trolls can move in and continue destroying the weakspots in the line, while the orcs charge in to finally make the battle HUGE.

Actually, there's a very famous real world ancient battle where Alexander the great sucessfully defeats an elephant army by concentrating his pikemen in tight formations, in such a way the charging elephants refused to move forward because it would mean they would impale themselves in the spears.

Remember, even if a bear if much bigger than you and his skin is tick, you can still kill it with using a spear against it's own momentum.

Same for elephants and Mumakils. Just instead of a single men you have some dozens making a giant pin cushion.

Greeks will probably be overrun tough. Orcs, unlike persians, know how to hit hard in melee, and the greeks don't really have any defense against war machines.

Tyrant
2008-06-26, 03:31 PM
Actually, there's a very famous real world ancient battle where Alexander the great sucessfully defeats an elephant army by concentrating his pikemen in tight formations, in such a way the charging elephants refused to move forward because it would mean they would impale themselves in the spears.

Remember, even if a bear if much bigger than you and his skin is tick, you can still kill it with using a spear against it's own momentum.

Same for elephants and Mumakils. Just instead of a single men you have some dozens making a giant pin cushion.

Greeks will probably be overrun tough. Orcs, unlike persians, know how to hit hard in melee, and the greeks don't really have any defense against war machines.

However, the Mumakils are many times larger than actual elephants. More importantly, as an extension of that increased size their tusks are quite a bit longer as well. Those tusks were covered in spikes and some even had spiked lines tied between them. One swing from side to side will destroy the front line (and likely snap most or all of the spears) before they ever come in contact with the Mumakil's body. The one's with the line attached between them will simply act as a bulldozer. Along with destroying spears, they will destroy the front line men on the return swing. Then they just trample everyone behind them. Some will be poorly timed and could be injured or killed as a result. Others will be brought down somehow. However, the amount of damage they can inflict in a short time is incredible.

Don Julio Anejo
2008-06-26, 04:11 PM
The problem with mumakils is that you have to use them either before the lines engage each other and then quickly rush in with the orcs or trolls to exploit the gaps, or charge them in the flank/rear of the Greeks. Sending them through orc lines that are already engaged and have nowhere to move away will do just as much damage to them as to the Greeks.

Sarissophoroi (Alexander's pikemen) would probably do pretty well against mumakils - they have the reach to hurt the elephant before it comes in contact with them. Unfortunately, regular Greek spears are only 1/3 to 1/2 of the length of sarissas so this isn't really an option.

Historically, the elephants were usually brought down with javelins and archery fire, by killing the mahouts or using bigger elephants (ex: Battle of Raphia where bigger Seleucid Indian elephants routed smaller Egyptian African elephants). Unfortunately, about the only thing Greeks can do is have their hero archers try and kill the mahouts before the elephants do too much damage.

PS: hoplites had to be an offensive force because for a while they were the only type of soldier fielded by Greeks that could have any effect on the battle itself (archers, slingers and javelineers were never meant to do much damage, just distract and annoy the enemy hoplites, at least until the peltastai appeared). Alexander's pikemen didn't have to use shock effect, that role was reserved for heavy cavalry.

PPS: regular elephants didn't like fighting very much and often ran away when they got sufficiently scared, or if they got too angry during the battle, they would refuse to follow orders and start to randomly run around the battlefield, not caring who they trample. Mumakils don't seem to do any of that unfortunately. Although I think this is more to do with J.R.R. Tolkien being a professor of English and not military history than anything else.

Executor
2008-06-26, 04:41 PM
I believe Philoctetes, the Legolas of the Greeks with his freakishly powerful Bow of Hercules, would do great execution amongst the mahauts of the mumakil. In addition, Odysseus was an archer of some renown and there Teucer as well, the half-brother of Ajax and a master archer. When Odysseus returned home after twenty years abroad (ten years in the Trojan War, and another ten years to return home after Poseidon got pissed at him), Penelope had said that only the man who could string Odysseus' huge composite bow and shoot it through 12 axe-handles could marry her. He won her back by doing so, so there are three extremely skilled archers amongst the Achaean host, with Odysseus also serving as a strategist and a skilled warrior.

So we come to an impasse between which version of the battle to set the Argives in. The book version has a larger enemy army (the exact number is never defined though), with more powerful orcs, evil men and Nazgul. The movie version has seems to have slightly smaller army, but with more powerful monsters like trolls and mumakil (the movie Mumakil are the size of office buildings, the book Mumakil are only a little bigger than real world elephants).