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Conners
2008-06-24, 01:17 PM
This thread is to be a collective of different home-brew ways to fix changes thought to be for the worse with 4e. I don't think it should be changed drastically (it might be easier to homebrew update 3.5ed), merely smaller--like the fact goblins and hobgoblins get a +2 bonus to CHR (I mean, sure, you could assume goblins had it because they've learned how to toady up to people well, but hobgoblins are a military soceity who I think were specified as "non-diplomatic")...

A few things I'd like to bring up that might need "fixing" and suggestions for how they might be "fixed":

Lack of languages: This is easily fixed by house-ruling the old ones in, methinks.

No penalty to stats: I know that the baseline is basically just up one level so that all races get two +2s without penalties, but that doesn't mean all races have to follow this rule (it makes them rather boring).


Racial stats

Gnolls
Currently: +2 CON, +2 DEX.
I personally liked their +4 STR and +2 CON quality, it gave you the idea they were large (as a 7' 06" creature is) and incredibly tough. While I do think being animals makes them extra agile, I think the role "hulking beast" was more important to their character.
Suggested change: +2 STR?, +2 CON?, +1 natural armour?.


Kobolds
Currently: +2 CON, +2 DEX.
Interesting how they go from -2 CON to +2... What was generally appealing about kobolds was how they were weak, but now they're quite identical statistically to a gnoll, marring difference in racial encounter powers.
Suggested change: -2 STR, +4 DEX, +1 natural armour?.


Goblins
Currently: +2 DEX, +2 CHR.
Three words: Goblins aren't pretty!! My point being that a CHR bonus doesn't really suit goblins in any way...
Suggested change: +2 DEX, +2 INT/WIS?.


Hobgoblins
Currently: +2 CON, +2 CHR.
You know, interesting how people were upset that hobgoblins were LA+1, just because they had two +2 bonuses to stats, with 3.5ed. Then, 4th edition comes out, and two +2 bonuses to stats are the base-level of a race! ....So they decide to give it an unfitting +2 CHR bonus instead of DEX 'cuz' they had already handed out the "+2 CON, +2 DEX" setup to Gnoll and Kobold...
Suggested change: +2 CON, +2 DEX.

[More may be added]


Please post your opinions on the matter of "fixing" "bad" points about 4e.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-06-24, 01:43 PM
As Person_Man pointed out on the "4E Houserule" thread, unless something is trivial (like languages), I'd be genuinely careful about instituting any houserules before having a *serious* playthrough of the system.

I'd be very hesitant to ditch the +2/+2 format for races, for example. If you want a character to be bad at something, you can always sell the stat down, but the more little fiddly numbers you throw together the more you open yourself up to min-max city. I'd be extremely careful about the Gnoll stat line in particular, because one +4 is just flat out better than two +2s.

marjan
2008-06-24, 01:43 PM
Seeing as how natural armor doesn't stack with armor bonus in 4e (at least I think this is the case), +X to NA is bad idea, since it will either do nothing or do more than it's acceptable.

Furthermore, if we assume that all races are balanced, you will run into some problems with gnolls. Also the +4 bonuses are huge deal now, unlike 3e, since stat bonuses are only available through leveling, race and one epic destiny, so +4 to main stat is too good.

Gnolls: your stat bonuses are to stats that contribute to the same defense so they are a bit redundant.

Morty
2008-06-24, 01:55 PM
Actually Charisma bonus fits hobgoblins quite well- they're disciplined, organized, bold, glory-seeking and used to ordering cowardly goblins and brutal bugbears around. I agree though that Cha bonus doesn't fit goblins very well. Int bonus would be much better, but Dex and Int both add to AC and Reflex defense, and designers seem to avoid such an overlap.

Conners
2008-06-24, 01:57 PM
As Person_Man pointed out on the "4E Houserule" thread, unless something is trivial (like languages), I'd be genuinely careful about instituting any houserules before having a *serious* playthrough of the system.

I'd be very hesitant to ditch the +2/+2 format for races, for example. If you want a character to be bad at something, you can always sell the stat down, but the more little fiddly numbers you throw together the more you open yourself up to min-max city. I'd be extremely careful about the Gnoll stat line in particular, because one +4 is just flat out better than two +2s. You have a point, but it makes no sense for there to only be ten languages in a world of so many races...

Ack... I guess I should change it to +2 STR and +2 CON, then?


Seeing as how natural armor doesn't stack with armor bonus in 4e (at least I think this is the case), +X to NA is bad idea, since it will either do nothing or do more than it's acceptable.

Furthermore, if we assume that all races are balanced, you will run into some problems with gnolls. Also the +4 bonuses are huge deal now, unlike 3e, since stat bonuses are only available through leveling, race and one epic destiny, so +4 to main stat is too good.

Gnolls: your stat bonuses are to stats that contribute to the same defense so they are a bit redundant. It DOESN'T :smalleek:...!? I need to re-read over those rules....

Gah... I didn't realize. Are kobolds alright since they technically should start off worse than other races?

....I thought 4th ED is meant to be less complicated than 3.5....?


Actually Charisma bonus fits hobgoblins quite well- they're disciplined, organized, bold, glory-seeking and used to ordering cowardly goblins and brutal bugbears around. I agree though that Cha bonus doesn't fit goblins very well. Int bonus would be much better, but Dex and Int both add to AC and Reflex defense, and designers seem to avoid such an overlap. The way I see it, you don't really need to be charismatic to bully someone. In one source book they had a "Bully" skill, which basically was Intimidate but allowed you to substitute CHR with STR.

Is there a way we an fix this "stats must overlap" thing, or get around it?

arnoldrew
2008-06-24, 02:01 PM
Gah... I didn't realize. Are kobolds alright since they technically should start off worse than other races?

Says who? Certainly not me.

Conners
2008-06-24, 02:07 PM
Says who? Certainly not me. I meant with my suggested change. -2 STR, +4 DEX.

Morty
2008-06-24, 02:10 PM
The way I see it, you don't really need to be charismatic to bully someone. In one source book they had a "Bully" skill, which basically was Intimidate but allowed you to substitute CHR with STR.

I wouldn't necessary call it "bullying". It might be the case when hobgoblins order goblins around -although in such case goblins might just run away- but bugbears are bigger and stronger than hobgoblins, yet it's said in MM that hobgoblins usually lead mixed tribes. The way I see it, hobgoblins are just naturally predisposed to lead other goblinoids(why did they remove this term eludes me), especially since it's said to be probable that they created them, and be led by other hobgoblins.


Is there a way we an fix this "stats must overlap" thing, or get around it?

I guess you could give them stronger racial features... after all, Eladrin have got +2 DEX and INT yet the're a playable race.

Skyserpent
2008-06-24, 02:13 PM
....I thought 4th ED is meant to be less complicated than 3.5....?


It is... you're just more used to 3.5 than 4e. Honestly it's simpler this way. I was never quite sure why Natural Armor and Regular Armor stack when Mage Armor and regular Armor don't back in 3.5...

Conners
2008-06-24, 02:21 PM
I wouldn't necessary call it "bullying". It might be the case when hobgoblins order goblins around -although in such case goblins might just run away- but bugbears are bigger and stronger than hobgoblins, yet it's said in MM that hobgoblins usually lead mixed tribes. The way I see it, hobgoblins are just naturally predisposed to lead other goblinoids(why did they remove this term eludes me), especially since it's said to be probable that they created them, and be led by other hobgoblins.



I guess you could give them stronger racial features... after all, Eladrin have got +2 DEX and INT yet the're a playable race. Ah, I'm not too familiar with the new fluff, yet. I'm certainly not too attached to some of it, particularly gnolls: [spoiler]going from tenaciously evil animoids to demon-worshiping, mindless, blood-hungering raiders... I thought them bad enough or too bad as it was...[spoiler]
Meh, goblins don't manage to run away when Overlords, Orcs, Humans, Bugbears, and etcetera enslave and boss them around. From what I knew of hobgoblin fluff, they captured goblins and made them slaves/cannon-fodder, and were a military race. Never heard of them leading bugbears, I heard it was viceversa.

How about hombrewing in Races of the Dragon kobold feats, that balance it out?


@Skyserpent: Heyas, Sky. Been a while.

Yeah... I guess I'm just unable to shake the oh-so-hard system of 3.5, which I struggled to learn, from my mind, when looking at 4e...

Starsinger
2008-06-24, 02:21 PM
It seems to me, that by adding stat penalties where they weren't before, is you complicating things.

SamTheCleric
2008-06-24, 02:25 PM
So by "fix" you mean "make more like 3.5" ?

If you want to do that... why not... play 3.5?

Conners
2008-06-24, 02:31 PM
It seems to me, that by adding stat penalties where they weren't before, is you complicating things. ... Actually, it's me trying to make a difference between a 7' 03" gnoll and a 3' 09" kobold.


So by "fix" you mean "make more like 3.5" ?

If you want to do that... why not... play 3.5? Sort of, yeah. That's why I put "fix" and "bad" in speech/quote marks.

There are some things I love about 4e, but there seem to be a few features that just scream "weird" to me... I've seen some people with similar opinions, so I thought I'd start a thread for "fixing" it to suit said people.

Morty
2008-06-24, 02:31 PM
Meh, goblins don't manage to run away when Overlords, Orcs, Humans, Bugbears, and etcetera enslave and boss them around. From what I knew of hobgoblin fluff, they captured goblins and made them slaves/cannon-fodder, and were a military race. Never heard of them leading bugbears, I heard it was viceversa.

In Monster Manual, it's written that "hobgoblins usually rule mixed goblinoid tribes unless severely outmatched" and that it's possible that in ancient times they created goblins and bugbears to serve, respectively, as spies/scouts and shock troops. Since they're also bold and seek glory in battle, I'd say Cha bonus is appropriate.

RTGoodman
2008-06-24, 02:34 PM
Gah... I didn't realize. Are kobolds alright since they technically should start off worse than other races?

Well, Kobolds don't have Natural Armor in 4E, and they're just as powerful as other races. They get +2 Con/Dex, 6-square speed, +2 to defenses vs. traps, and and the ability to shift 1 square as an at-will minor action.

Of course, I just noticed that they don't have low-light vision OR darkvision. I might have to houserule that, at least.

Conners
2008-06-24, 02:34 PM
In Monster Manual, it's written that "hobgoblins usually rule mixed goblinoid tribes unless severely outmatched" and that it's possible that in ancient times they created goblins and bugbears to serve, respectively, as spies/scouts and shock troops. Since they're also bold and seek glory in battle, I'd say Cha bonus is appropriate. Man, the flavour has certainly changed a lot between the version. Wait... how did hobgoblins make the other goblinoids O_o? Breeding techniques? Magic? Help from their god?


Well, Kobolds don't have Natural Armor in 4E, and they're just as powerful as other races. They get +2 Con/Dex, 6-square speed, +2 to defenses vs. traps, and and the ability to shift 1 square as an at-will minor action.

Of course, I just noticed that they don't have low-light vision OR darkvision. I might have to houserule that, at least. I was actually talking about my suggested change for kobolds :smalltongue:. -2 STR, +4 DEX, +1 natural armour.

Wait. No dark-vision? Madness! Why didn't I see this before...? That certainly has to be changed if I ever DM a kobold campaign...

RTGoodman
2008-06-24, 02:41 PM
I was actually talking about my suggested change for kobolds :smalltongue:. -2 STR, +4 DEX, +1 natural armour.

Oh, oops. :smallredface: I guess I accidentally scrolled past 'em, since I remember reading Gnolls and Goblins...

Skyserpent
2008-06-24, 02:44 PM
Man, the flavour has certainly changed a lot between the version. Wait... how did hobgoblins make the other goblinoids O_o? Breeding techniques? Magic? Help from their god?

I was actually talking about my suggested change for kobolds :smalltongue:. -2 STR, +4 DEX, +1 natural armour.

Wait. No dark-vision? Madness! Why didn't I see this before...? That certainly has to be changed if I ever DM a kobold campaign...

heh... I'm going to go with magick mostly because I like to avoid the squick created by Hot Skitty On Wailord Action (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HotSkittyOnWailordAction) /shudder...

Conners
2008-06-24, 02:51 PM
Oh, oops. :smallredface: I guess I accidentally scrolled past 'em, since I remember reading Gnolls and Goblins... That's OK. I found what you said in your post quite useful, actually.


heh... I'm going to go with magick mostly because I like to avoid the squick created by Hot Skitty On Wailord Action (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HotSkittyOnWailordAction) /shudder... It actually looks pretty cute, if you don't think of it as sexual.

Morty
2008-06-24, 02:52 PM
Man, the flavour has certainly changed a lot between the version. Wait... how did hobgoblins make the other goblinoids O_o? Breeding techniques? Magic? Help from their god?


Well, it's not certain, but a DC30 Nature check reveals that they might have bred them magically. It's probably supposed to be ambigous, though.
Also, Cha bonus for goblins looks suspiciously like it was put on just so that they've got something without really thinking about applications.

monty
2008-06-24, 02:52 PM
Goblins
Currently: +2 DEX, +2 CHR.
Three words: Goblins aren't pretty!! My point being that a CHR bonus doesn't really suit goblins in any way...
Suggested change: +2 DEX, +2 INT/WIS?

Goblins are very pretty...and if you think Cha doesn't suit them, go talk to my 36 base Cha goblin. Also, remember that appearance is only 1 part of Charisma. Force of personality, ability to handle social situations, etc...nothing says goblins can't have those, just because you think they're ugly.

Anyway, if you want to make it more reasonable, just play 3.5 :smallbiggrin:.

Conners
2008-06-24, 03:02 PM
Well, it's not certain, but a DC30 Nature check reveals that they might have bred them magically. It's probably supposed to be ambigous, though.
Also, Cha bonus for goblins looks suspiciously like it was put on just so that they've got something without really thinking about applications You mean they took some magic-steriods to see if they could generate a new type of freak? ...Ew.
So they placed it there cuz they had nothing better :smalltongue:?


Goblins are very pretty...and if you think Cha doesn't suit them, go talk to my 36 base Cha goblin. Also, remember that appearance is only 1 part of Charisma. Force of personality, ability to handle social situations, etc...nothing says goblins can't have those, just because you think they're ugly.

Anyway, if you want to make it more reasonable, just play 3.5 :smallbiggrin: I was making a joke with the "not pretty" statement, and considered furthering it with, "they don't have long, golden pigtails, with frilly pink bows and longer silky dresses".

As said before, I like a lot of the 4e system, but some parts of it seem too strange, or blatantly unrealistic (unrealistic DnD-wise, that is)--such as their only being ten languages.

Morty
2008-06-24, 03:10 PM
You mean they took some magic-steriods to see if they could generate a new type of freak? ...Ew.

Maybe, maybe not. I think this fluff is fairly silly as well.


So they placed it there cuz they had nothing better :smalltongue:?

I belive it's very probable.

purepolarpanzer
2008-06-24, 03:13 PM
Goblins are very pretty...and if you think Cha doesn't suit them, go talk to my 36 base Cha goblin. Also, remember that appearance is only 1 part of Charisma. Force of personality, ability to handle social situations, etc...nothing says goblins can't have those, just because you think they're ugly.

Anyway, if you want to make it more reasonable, just play 3.5 :smallbiggrin:.

And I didn't see a reference in 4e that charisma was at all related to looks. Darn good switch if you ask me. Sposed to be a mental stat, and we all know people who may look appealing but are socially awkward or even worse.

Conners
2008-06-24, 03:14 PM
Maybe, maybe not. I think this fluff is fairly silly as well.

I belive it's very probable. ....Sooo... homebew it back to 3.5 version, where their god just made several races :smallbiggrin:?

I'm wondering if they rushed 4e a bit, since sorcerer isn't in PHB and a few other things.


And I didn't see a reference in 4e that charisma was at all related to looks. Darn good switch if you ask me. Sposed to be a mental stat, and we all know people who may look appealing but are socially awkward or even worse. I realize this, I was making a short punchline with "goblins aren't pretty".

Chronos
2008-06-24, 03:15 PM
Since when do races not have penalties to stats any more? Dwarves, for instance, now have +1 1/3 to Con and Wis, and -2/3 to Str, Dex, Int, and Cha. To say that everyone just has bonuses now, no penalties, makes about as much sense as to say that in Lake Woebegone, everyone's child is above-average.

Conners
2008-06-24, 03:21 PM
Since when do races not have penalties to stats any more? Dwarves, for instance, now have +1 1/3 to Con and Wis, and -2/3 to Str, Dex, Int, and Cha. To say that everyone just has bonuses now, no penalties, makes about as much sense as to say that in Lake Woebegone, everyone's child is above-average. ..... Pardon? It says in the 4th edition handbook that dwarves have +2 CON, +2 WIS, I can't see anything else about their attributes.

marjan
2008-06-24, 03:22 PM
Since when do races not have penalties to stats any more? Dwarves, for instance, now have +1 1/3 to Con and Wis, and -2/3 to Str, Dex, Int, and Cha. To say that everyone just has bonuses now, no penalties, makes about as much sense as to say that in Lake Woebegone, everyone's child is above-average.

You know, I never thought about it this way, but it actually makes sense.

Morty
2008-06-24, 03:24 PM
....Sooo... homebew it back to 3.5 version, where their god just made several races :smallbiggrin:?

It's not so much homebrew as fluff change. Of course, in 4ed goblinoids revere Bane and Maglubyiet along with Hruggek are his exarchs.


I'm wondering if they rushed 4e a bit, since sorcerer isn't in PHB and a few other things.

I didn't mean that WoTC rushed 4ed but that in their opinion noone was going to care about goblin PC stats anyway.

Innis Cabal
2008-06-24, 03:26 PM
no, they didnt rush it, sorcerer is no longer a class, period

Conners
2008-06-24, 03:34 PM
It's not so much homebrew as fluff change. Of course, in 4ed goblinoids revere Bane and Maglubyiet along with Hruggek are his exarchs.

I didn't mean that WoTC rushed 4ed but that in their opinion noone was going to care about goblin PC stats anyway. I'd like to reply to this paragraph, but besides Bhaal and Yeenoghu, I'm pretty blank on the activities of the DnD deities (I only know about those two because I played BG2 and like gnolls).
Bane is the god of the dead who adventured with Bhaal (and another guy) -- back when they were mortals -- isn't he? I thought he got slain in the Time of Troubles along with Bhaal?

Interesting how they think no one cares about monster races... why is that?


no, they didnt rush it, sorcerer is no longer a class, period They said they'll add sorcerer class in another book, possibly PHB2, so it is a class. Also, since one of the more popular classes is not in the first book it would normally mean, A) They had to rush things and didn't get time to finish it--or, B) It is a better marketing strategy for selling said book if a popular class everyone expected/wanted is in said book.

Vikazc
2008-06-24, 03:39 PM
It makes perfect sense for Goblins to have a charisma bonus because, frankly without being skilled at groveling and back alley diplomacy they would have been wiped out centuries ago. There is an entire profession called "Adventurer" that might as well be "Goblin Killers".

As for their creation, it's not all that difficult to imagine intentional inbreeding to try to create smaller and sneakier, or bigger and stronger subraces. Its kinda freaky that hobgoblins would do this to their own race instead of some slave race, but strange **** does happen.

kamikasei
2008-06-24, 03:51 PM
I'd like to reply to this paragraph, but besides Bhaal and Yeenoghu, I'm pretty blank on the activities of the DnD deities (I only know about those two because I played BG2 and like gnolls).
Bane is the god of the dead who adventured with Bhaal (and another guy) -- back when they were mortals -- isn't he? I thought he got slain in the Time of Troubles along with Bhaal?

Bane is a god of tyranny, more or less filling the role Hextor occupied in 3e. His Forgotten Realms history isn't all that relevant.

Morty
2008-06-24, 03:55 PM
I'd like to reply to this paragraph, but besides Bhaal and Yeenoghu, I'm pretty blank on the activities of the DnD deities (I only know about those two because I played BG2 and like gnolls).
Bane is the god of the dead who adventured with Bhaal (and another guy) -- back when they were mortals -- isn't he? I thought he got slain in the Time of Troubles along with Bhaal?

Kamikasei covered that one already.


Interesting how they think no one cares about monster races... why is that?

No clue. But "monster races" being no more than sword fodder noone will want to play is one of the few features that are completely the same in 3ed and 4ed.

RTGoodman
2008-06-24, 04:10 PM
Also, since one of the more popular classes is not in the first book it would normally mean, A) They had to rush things and didn't get time to finish it--or, B) It is a better marketing strategy for selling said book if a popular class everyone expected/wanted is in said book.

Except that Sorcerers got a lot of their popularity in 3.x just because they didn't have to memorize spells like Wizards, and in 4E that isn't a problem. The reason they're not in 4E's PHB is probably just that their roll is already filled (Wizard is your magical Controller, Warlock your magical Striker) and/or the the Elemental power source (and the Sorcerer class itself) isn't as iconic as Arcane source (or the Wizard in general).

Dausuul
2008-06-24, 04:21 PM
Suggestion: Instead of changing the stat modifiers on the monstrous races, just impose minima and maxima. For example, you might require bugbears to have a minimum Strength of 14 (16 after racial adjustment); or limit kobolds to a maximum Strength of 12. That would prevent Charles Atlas kobolds, without affecting game balance.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-06-24, 05:17 PM
You have a point, but it makes no sense for there to only be ten languages in a world of so many races...


When I said "trivial" I mean in the sense that it's not a big system issue, it's a setting detail. I'd barely count "adding extra languages" as houseruling: I do it as a matter of course.

That said, I'm kind of glad they got rid of all the "Elemental Plane" languages.

Blackdrop
2008-06-24, 07:30 PM
I always saw hobgoblins of having a Int. bonus instead of Cha. The general description is that they're tactical geniuses. I can see where they're coming from with the Cha aspect, but Int just seems to make more sense.

JaxGaret
2008-06-24, 08:26 PM
No clue. But "monster races" being no more than sword fodder noone will want to play is one of the few features that are completely the same in 3ed and 4ed.

IMO false. I too thought that the the playable monster races were weak when I first laid eyes on them, but now that I have more experience with the system, I have come to see that they are plenty competitive with the PHB races - they're right there with 'em, perhaps a few a shade weaker.

And that's even without the full racial writeups that many of them are going to get - Warforged were the first, in Dragon 364.

Thrud
2008-06-24, 11:32 PM
They said they'll add sorcerer class in another book, possibly PHB2, so it is a class. Also, since one of the more popular classes is not in the first book it would normally mean, A) They had to rush things and didn't get time to finish it--or, B) It is a better marketing strategy for selling said book if a popular class everyone expected/wanted is in said book.

They SAY that it is so everyone will understand that the later PHBs and MMs and DMG are really still intended to be core books, and not just add on splatbooks. That is why they intentionally left certain classes out of the first PHB, and certain monsters out of the first MM.

Personally, though, I feel it is much more a marketing strategy. Keep some of the favorite monsters and classes out of the first round of 'core' books to make people more likely to buy the later ones. Sound marketing strategy, but it irritates the hell out of me.

Morty
2008-06-25, 05:15 AM
IMO false. I too thought that the the playable monster races were weak when I first laid eyes on them, but now that I have more experience with the system, I have come to see that they are plenty competitive with the PHB races - they're right there with 'em, perhaps a few a shade weaker.

And that's even without the full racial writeups that many of them are going to get - Warforged were the first, in Dragon 364.

It's not about strenght, it's about stuffing them in the end of MM with a clear statement that they're not supposed to be PCs except in very rare cases- which is really ironic as among the first 4ed builds I've seen there were several monsters. And Cha bonus for goblins really looks like it was just thrown there so that they have got some bonus, as it's not justified in their description in any way.
And I seriously doubt orcs and goblinoids are going to get full racial writeups. It's just not in line with WoTC's treatment of them.

Kurald Galain
2008-06-25, 05:28 AM
Say...

Does it strike anyone as odd that, despite marketing hype to the contrary, a character's race in 4E matters about as much as it did in 3E, which is to say "not a lot, except at low levels"?

Excepting the few races that get a highly noticeable iconic racial power (i.e. dragon breath or possibly fey step), the difference is essentially made in the racial feats, which are limited in number, optional and retrainable, and several of which really aren't worth taking.

So yeah, a character is defined by class.