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Tempest Fennac
2008-07-02, 02:06 AM
What would you guys say the best Favoured Enermy choices are for Rangers in a campaign where the players don't have a clue about what sort of enermies the DM will throw at them? I was just curious due to how some would appear to be better then others (eg: Monstrous Humanoid or Abberation would be a better choice then Gnoll unless you knew the DM was going to use tons of Gnolls). Also, would this list be god for general versatillity, and are the Favoured Enermies chosen in the most optimal order?

Level 1: Monstrous Humanoid.
Level 5: Undead.
Level 10: Evil Outsider.
Level 15: Abberation.
Level 20: Elemental.

(I'm considering making a Ranger, and I'm curious about what people with more experience think about Favoured Enermy choices).

cupkeyk
2008-07-02, 02:33 AM
1 Undead
5 Construct
10 Elemental
15 Ooze
20 Plant

This is if you are going for a swift hunter. Ditch plant and get evil if you are taking stalker of kharash levels after 12.

Tempest Fennac
2008-07-02, 02:36 AM
I wasn't honestly thinking of using any PrCs. I'll look those up thanks (I've only ever played D&D online, so I don't have any sourcebooks, but I'l check Crystal Keep in a minute).

Chronicled
2008-07-02, 02:39 AM
I wasn't honestly thinking of using any PrCs. I'll look those up thanks (I've only ever played D&D online, so I don't have any sourcebooks, but I'l check Crystal Keep in a minute).

Swift Hunter isn't a PrC, it's a feat.

See this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?).

Tempest Fennac
2008-07-02, 02:42 AM
Thanks, Chronicled (the link doesn't work, though). No wonder I couldn't find it on CK's PrC list. Stalker of Kharash sounds like a neat PrC (it fits with the fact that I'm considering making a Lupin). Ou to fo all of the combat styles on page 100 of http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Base.pdf , which one would you guys say is the best? I know TWF is considered to be weak, but I kind of like the idea of playing as that sort of Ranger.

EDIT: I guess playing as a small race while taking the Mounted Combat style would be effective (a friend recommended that approach to melee characters).

EDIT 2: Swift Hunter sounds really good. I've just got a couple of questions about it, though: are Ranger and Scout levels which are taken before you get the feat counted for FE and Skirmish, and once a skill is a Class Skill, is it always a class skill when you take levels in another class? Also, which class features would you guys recommend in place of an animal companion? If I went with that build, I'd probably use the Archery combat style.

Curmudgeon
2008-07-02, 02:52 AM
I'd start with Humanoid (human), because this also applies to half-humans. So half-orcs, half-ogres, half-elves -- basically a bunch of subtypes that could be part of any band of brigands. If you're in an Eberron setting, I'd next choose Construct, because (unlike Humanoid) you don't have to specify a subtype and thus you also get warforged (living constructs) in addition to all the golem types.

Tempest Fennac
2008-07-02, 02:57 AM
That is a good point about the Humaniod subtype thanks. Campaign-setting-wise, I don't know what it will be (I'm mainly looking at general settings).

bigbaddragon
2008-07-02, 04:58 AM
EDIT 2: Swift Hunter sounds really good. I've just got a couple of questions about it, though: are Ranger and Scout levels which are taken before you get the feat counted for FE and Skirmish, and once a skill is a Class Skill, is it always a class skill when you take levels in another class? ...

After you take the feat all your Ranger and Scout levels stack for FE and Skirmish. Once you take a class with some skill as a class skill that skill always acts like a class skill regarding max number of ranks you can purchase and taking levels in another class only affects at what cost you will buy ranks in that skill (1 point per rank if its class skill for your new class or 2 points per rank if its not).

Some of the things that also might come handy to this character are Improved Skirmish form Complete Scoundrel (+2d6/+2AC) and Travel Devotion (Complete Champion) which lets you move your speed as a swift action once per round for 10 round I think.

marjan
2008-07-02, 06:10 AM
I'd start with Humanoid (human), because this also applies to half-humans.

That's not true.


Orc Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-orc is considered an orc.


Elven Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-elf is considered an elf.

And Half-Ogres are giants, not humanoids.

Eldariel
2008-07-02, 06:29 AM
I like to pick Arcanists first (Complete Mage ACF; Arcane Hunter); it covers Dragons, Liches and many other major annoyances. It doesn't hurt that most of my Ranger-builds are Mage Slayers to some degree. Aberrations and Evil Outsiders are also solid options since they're both major PiTAs and quite common. Undead work quite well too. If you have FE: Evil (from Stalker of Kharesh/Harper Paragon) though, I'd focus on kicking non-Evil things in the face. No point in picking any Humanoid-types unless you know the campaign very well since they're some of the most restrictive choices available. All the others cover tons of creature types, Humanoid covers merely one race (and subraces, of course).

After that, the list Cupkey gave in order to bypass Critical Immunity on as many creatures as possible is handy for Swift Hunter (Swift Hunter deals Skirmish-damage to all creatures he's got as FE even if they were normally immune, which is why it's so awesome; those 5 types are all the creatures normally with critical immunity). Out of that list, I'd consider not picking up Ooze because 1) They aren't very scary and 2) They're quite rare (not picking it gives you the levels to pick up Favored Enemy: Evil, which replaces your Favored Enemy: Undead (since all Undead are automatically Evil too), and Ooze can make way for Arcanists). Non-Swift Hunters have better options.

Tempest Fennac
2008-07-02, 06:43 AM
Thanks for the extra information. Does extra damage from Skirmish apply to all attacks once you've got extra ones, or does it only apply to the first attack?

Eldariel
2008-07-02, 06:53 AM
Thanks for the extra information. Does extra damage from Skirmish apply to all attacks once you've got extra ones, or does it only apply to the first attack?

Skirmish requires you to move 10ft to activate so normally you couldn't use it with more than one attack. However, if you have the means to both, move 10ft a turn and make a full attack (or make a Standard Attack consisting of multiple attack rolls), yes, you get to apply Skirmish to each separately.

Bayar
2008-07-02, 06:54 AM
I talked to my DM once to give me some favored enemies, but he made me play something else other than ranger...

I was thinking of Favored enemy:

Living
Breathing
Moving
Party members
NPC's

Now that I think of it, Favored enemy (plot central beings) is a much better choice :smallbiggrin:



Skirmish requires you to move 10ft to activate so normally you couldn't use it with more than one attack. However, if you have the means to both, move 10ft a turn and make a full attack (or make a Standard Attack consisting of multiple attack rolls), yes, you get to apply Skirmish to each separately.

There was a feat that gave you a 10' step instead of a 5' step...

Tempest Fennac
2008-07-02, 06:55 AM
Thanks for telling me (I was thinking of combining Skirmish with TWF. I'm guessing that most DPs wouldn't allow that, though). Those would work well, Bayer. Non-breathing would be better then party members, though.

Eldariel
2008-07-02, 07:05 AM
There was a feat that gave you a 10' step instead of a 5' step...

No, that's just a simple DC40 Tumble-check (rules for this in Oriental Adventures). However, it's doable so late in the game (level 14 or so), it isn't something you could base a whole character around. The easiest version:


Get a level of Cleric with Travel-domain that you exchange for Travel Devotion. Burn all your Turn Undead-attempts for extra uses. You should have 3-4x Travel Devotion per day, which lets you move up to your speed as a swift action, making skirmishing TWFing a very real possibility.

The other option is Pounce (simpliest being Barbarian 1) along with ways to move back as a Swift Action (such as some martial maneuvers or spells). Archers have it easy with Greater Manyshot (Expanded Psionics Handbook) giving you up to 4 attacks as a Standard Action.

marjan
2008-07-02, 07:05 AM
Easiest way to get 10ft movement and full attack would be Travel Devotion, if your DM lets you do that.


Non-breathing would be better then party members, though.

That largely depends on your party members. :smallwink:

Tempest Fennac
2008-07-02, 07:08 AM
Thanks for telling me. I honestly wouldn't want to take a level of Cleric solely for that ability, though (getting 3 Scout levels before focussing on Ranger levels sounds good, though). The idea o getting into fights with party members sounds worrying.

marjan
2008-07-02, 07:15 AM
Travel Devotion is feat, so any class can get it. Advantage in being a cleric for this is that you can save the feat and exchange Turn Undead attempts for additional daily uses of it. So while it is easier to take it as cleric, it is not impossible to do so even if you aren't.

Keld Denar
2008-07-02, 07:21 AM
There are 2 different types of swift hunters. Melee, and ranged. Melee swift hunters typically are two-weapon fighters, to maximize number of attacks and thus d6s thrown. These typically include some form of pounce to allow for movement + full attack. Easiest ways to aquire pounce or pseudo-pounce are CC Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian, OA (?) Frost Tiger Berzerker Lodge feat, CC Travel Devotion, or a use activated item of Psionic Hustle. These all allow you to move more than 10' and still have the option of making a full attack.

Archery swift hunters typically take a little to get off the ground. Given that you can't take Greater Manyshot until your 9th level feat (you need a BAB 6 which you don't get till 7th). There are a few things you can do to gain the movement though. Anklets of Translocation from MIC are great. 10' teleport as a swift action, you can blink twice in a combat and make a Rapid Shot. After the combat, swap out spent Anklets for a fresh pair. They are only like, 1800g each. Once again, Travel Devotion is also great for long fights, since it gives you 10 rounds of move + full attack.

The most common builds tend to take 4 levels of scout and 16 levels of full BAB class (typically ranger, with a dip for barb with melee or PrCs like the above mentioned Stalker). This keeps your BAB as high as possible, which is typically best. Ranged Swift Hunters don't benefit as much, but advancing BAB for Multishot progression is still idea. You also get ranger spells, some of which are decent. Most notable ranger spells from Spell Compendium. 90% of the spells there are better than any of the core spells from the PHB for rangers. Take a looksee.

Tempest Fennac
2008-07-02, 07:36 AM
Sorry for getting confused about Travel Devotion. I'd say travel Devition sounds like the best idea here (I was only thinking about taking 3 Scot levels due to wanting the Combat style feats as soon as possible).

marjan
2008-07-02, 07:50 AM
I was only thinking about taking 3 Scot levels due to wanting the Combat style feats as soon as possible.

You need five levels to get Combat Style and to meet prerequisites for Swift Hunter, which means that it will be your 6th level feat, so you have one more level to play with. If you are short on feats then cleric would be a good idea, otherwise skip it. After Swift Hunter, I'd recommend taking Improved Skirmish for an extra 2d6 damage.

Tempest Fennac
2008-07-02, 07:56 AM
I'm confused about the prequsites: Crystal Keep says that Skrimish 1d6/1 AC is needed with Favoured Enemy as a class feature. I typically have trouble deciding which feats to take, so a slight lack of them isn't that much of a problem for me.:smallbiggrin:

marjan
2008-07-02, 08:09 AM
I'm confused about the prequsites: Crystal Keep says that Skrimish 1d6/1 AC is needed with Favoured Enemy as a class feature.

The prerequisites are exactly that, so you need one level of ranger and three levels of scout. Technically, you have two more levels before level six, but if you want Combat Style, you need one more level of ranger.


I typically have trouble deciding which feats to take, so a slight lack of them isn't that much of a problem for me.:smallbiggrin:

In that case I would skip level of cleric, since it will complicate things a bit (multi-class penalties).

Keld Denar
2008-07-02, 08:11 AM
Its worth noting that travel devotion is only once per day unless you either take the feat multiple times OR permanently sacrifice turn attempts per day for additional uses per day. The easiest way would be to dip cleric (or cloistered cleric) and get Undeath and Travel (and Knowledge) and then swap Travel for Travel Devotion and sacrifice all the turn attemps you get from cleric and Extra Turning (from Undeath domain) for ~3-4 uses per day. Also swap Knowledge if you take Cloistered Cleric for Knowledge Devotion for some extra damage against foes you have knowledge skills over (Nature + Dungeoneering at least).

Unfortunately, this delays your combat style/scirmish progression and stunts you a point of BAB, bringing you to 18/20 maxiumum and delaying aquisition of Greater Manyshot (if you go archer)

SamTheCleric
2008-07-02, 08:11 AM
Don't forget: Swift Hunter can be taken as a 4th level Scout's bonus feat... so you -can- get it at level 5. (Ranger 1/Scout 4)...

Tempest Fennac
2008-07-02, 08:14 AM
I'm probably better off skipping the Cleric level. I take it that it's not possible to get Pounce as a feat, right?

marjan
2008-07-02, 08:26 AM
I'm probably better off skipping the Cleric level. I take it that it's not possible to get Pounce as a feat, right?

If you are Catfolk, you can take Catfolk Pounce as a feat, but it only works on flat-footed opponents.

Tempest Fennac
2008-07-02, 08:31 AM
That limits it's usefulness quite a bit (and I don't really like using races with LAs). I'm sorry if I've missed this, but woul ranged Skirmish attacks apply the extra dice to the dirst attack only as well? If not, I'm probably better off with that approach.

Eldariel
2008-07-02, 08:39 AM
Frost Tiger Berserker Lodge-feat from Unapproachable East does it. However, it requires membership in the said Lodge. Still, that's just fluff and if UE is allowed in your games, it's a solid option. That said, Pounce alone isn't enough since you need to move 10' back to charge again in the same turn. I like a single level dip in Warblade; picks up Sudden Leap and few other handy abilities, then Sudden Leap-full attacks for the second round. Third round, if opportunity presents itself, charge, Pounce and use Swift Action to renew maneuvers (you can have other maneuvers do something like saves; generally just counters - pick Leading the Charge as your stance!). This way you get another charge at the same guy.

This is also why Travel Devotion is preferred; it's not as limited as Pounce. A single Cleric-level is all it takes. Scout 4/Ranger 15/Cloistered Cleric 1 gets the best of all worlds, for example (or Scout 3/Cleric 1 if going by partial BAB and not finding the extra feat that important). Scout 3/Warblade 1/Barbarian 1/Ranger 15 is likewise solid; Ranger 15 gets the maximum number of level 4 spells (Freedom of Movement!) a Ranger can get so it tends to be worth it. Barbarian could be dropped for Frost Tiger Berserker-feat, but Whirling Frenzy is actually very solid, giving you an extra attack, extra AC and Str.


Otherwise, I suggest either Scout 3/Ranger 17 (Freedom of Movement) or Scout 5/Ranger 15 (gets Evasion and Spell Reflection; costs you BAB, but generally not much else). Those work best for archers though since they don't have the framework to full attack in melee, but you can work with them. Remember that while Skirmish requires 10' only, Improved Skirmish, a feat you certainly want (+2d6 to Skirmish-damage and +2 AC when Skirmishing? YES PLEASE), requires 20' to activate, which is yet another thing in favour of Travel Devotion. Still, a Charger is a decent option as long as you're willing to go all the way and pimp out your Jump-check to jump 20' back for the charge. :P


EDIT: Skirmish always applies to all attacks you do after moving. So Greater Manyshot allows you to get 4 full Skirmish-attacks at max. as a Standard Action. Likewise, Travel Devotion > move = full attack with Skirmish applied to each. Likewise with Pounce. It's the same with ranged and melee attacks.

Tempest Fennac
2008-07-02, 08:44 AM
That build sounds complicated (and I don't know anything about the Maneuvers). How does Spell Reflection work? Thanks for clarifying about Skirmish working with Ranged attacks (I'll probably go with that option because it's less complicated: I'd have trouble justifying multi-classing as more then 1 class from an RP perspective, and I was thinking about using the Magicless Ranger variant so that Wis isn't as important to me: using a 32 Point Buy, I was planning on using 14 str, Con and Int, 12 Wis, 8 Cha and 16 Dex using a Lupin).

marjan
2008-07-02, 08:45 AM
I'm sorry if I've missed this, but woul ranged Skirmish attacks apply the extra dice to the dirst attack only as well?

Only in the case of Volley-Attacks, such as Scorching Ray and Manyshot (but not Greater Manyshot).

Keld Denar
2008-07-02, 09:30 AM
Yea, normally in a volley-type attack(Manyshot) you only get SA or Skirmish on 1 hit. Greater Manyshot explicitely changes this (the whole point of the feat) to allow precision damage on each hit.

From a play point of view, while an archery Swift Hunter would be more powerful (especially with the right bow enhancements like Splitting, Exit Wounds, and/or Force), a melee Swift Hunter would be more fun to play. Archer SH just moves and shoots, every round from level 1 till the day he dies. The only thing that changes is the number of arrows and the number of dice. Melee SH gets to charge around from foe to foe like a halfling skiprock leaping, rolling, or sliding around to get into position before rushing headlong into foes from a different angle. Invest highly in Tumble or be prepared to eat a lot of AoOs when the monsters start getting bigger than you.

Tempest Fennac
2008-07-02, 09:45 AM
If there was another couple of melee people who could hold the line*, that would be good. I'd probably keep Tumble, Spot, Listen, Hide, Move Silently and Search maxed out while dividing the other skill points between Swim, Jump, Climb and Survival (once I start aking Ranger levels).

*That would make a good Bard song. Admittedly, I'm a Toto fan, and there's aleady a feat with that name.

Curmudgeon
2008-07-02, 09:47 AM
I'd start with Humanoid (human), because this also applies to half-humans.

That's not true.
Orc Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-orc is considered an orc.
This statement makes it clear that half-orcs can benefit from orc-specific bonuses, so a Ranger's favored enemy benefit would apply to half-orcs if the Ranger picked Favored Enemy: Humanoid (orc). But the rules do not preclude half-orcs benefiting from human-specific bonuses (of which there are very few, as humans have no racial ability adjustments). This statement is distinctly different from something like:

Orc Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-orc is considered only an orc.

marjan
2008-07-02, 09:59 AM
This statement makes it clear that half-orcs can benefit from orc-specific bonuses, so a Ranger's favored enemy benefit would apply to half-orcs if the Ranger picked Favored Enemy: Humanoid (orc). But the rules do not preclude half-orcs benefiting from human-specific bonuses (of which there are very few, as humans have no racial ability adjustments). This statement is distinctly different from something like:

Orc Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-orc is considered only an orc.

Half-Orc and Human are two different races. Unless there is a rule that says that Half-Orcs are treated as Humans for effects regarding race, you don't treat them as Humans.

If we follow your logic, then taking Favored Enemy(Human) would allow you to apply your bonus to any race, since there is no race X that says they are treated only as race X for the effects related to the race.

Furthermore this would make Human Heritage feat partially useless, as one of its benefits is that it changes your subtype to human.

Another_Poet
2008-07-02, 10:12 AM
The best system is for the DM to say, "Okay, don't pick your favoured enemy yet. You can declare it during the campaign, whenever you want to. Once you declare it it's set in stone."

Failing that, undead or constructs first, then aberrations.

ap

Tempest Fennac
2008-07-02, 10:17 AM
It kind of takes the fun out of it if you know what kind of enemies the DM's likely to use, though. (That's why my initial list was trying to incluse as many creatures as possible. I'd probably swap a couple thanks to the Scout advice, though).

Eldariel
2008-07-02, 10:42 AM
Martial maneuvers are relatively simple and a system you absolutely want to learn; they're fun and extremely helpful for melee characters. The abilities in question though are simple: Sudden Leap allows you to make a Jump as a Swift Action, Leading the Charge adds damage to attacks done at the end of the charge (equal to your Initiator level, which is Your Levels in ToB Classes + Your Levels in Non-ToB Classes). A Warblade recovers maneuvers (that is, makes them usable again) by spending a Swift Action, followed by attacking or Standard Action to flourish or so (do nothing). All the 3 classes recover their maneuvers differently; Warblade's method works best with your character.

Also, if you plan on going long, I strongly suggest keeping spells; they're the only thing that gives you bit of variety. Otherwise it's just move-attack-move-attack for the whole campaign. It may be enjoyable for the first 100 battles. At 1000 though, you'll just be hammerheading and probably bleeding all over. Spells give you other things to do.


As for RPing more than one class, it's very easy. Barbarian is a nature-oriented character like Ranger and Scout so it's basically just the same class with a different name; maybe something happens to you and you develop this raging or maybe it's just some sort of primal frenzy where you channel natural energies (the same ones you cast as spells) into physically enhancing you. Taking the class just gives you the mechanical tools for this.

As far as Cleric goes, Ranger is already a nature Cleric, picking an actual Cleric-level just goes to deepen your relationship with your God. You don't need to be a priest or anything, just someone who channels your God's will; Ranger-spells are Divine too, so it all makes sense.

Warblade may be a bit more complex to explain, but really, since it's just a 1-level dip, it's quite simple to state that you've just dabbled in some basic techniques of the Sublime Way to complement your mobile fighting style.

Person_Man
2008-07-02, 11:07 AM
It's worth mentioning that anyone with lots of Favored Enemy should take Wise to Your Ways (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Wise_to_Your_Ways,all), Favored Power Attack (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Favored_Power_Attack,all), and Nemesis (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Nemesis,all). If you use one of the spell-less Ranger variants, Mage Slayer->Pierce Magical Concealment is also a great pickup at high levels.

In particular, Wise to Your Ways and a high Favored Enemy (Evil) bonus can net you a +8 to your Saves against Evil enemies. And Favored Power Attack + Oversized Two Weapon Fighting + Leap Attack = ridiculous damage. Dip one level into Barbarian for Pounce, and you're set.

Chronos
2008-07-02, 12:36 PM
Personally, I'd go with Undead for my first one, since they scale well: At first level, you'll be facing skeletons and zombies, and at 20th level, you're facing liches, vampires, and nightshades. Undead never go out of style.

After that, you'll probably have a chance to get some feel for the campaign before picking further. Evil outsiders are likely to be a good choice eventually, but probably not until your 3rd or 4th choice (there's a shortage of low-level fiends). Aberrations can also be good, since many of them are very nasty (beholders and mindflayers come to mind), but then again, you can sometimes go an entire campaign seeing nothing beyond a carrion crawler, so that's something you want to get a feel for first.

On the question of humanoid creatures, a half-orc is a humanoid (orc). It's not a humanoid (orc, human). So favored enemy: humanoid (human) wouldn't do anything. It would, however, work for azurins, karsites, and mongrelfolk, all of whom do have the (human) subtype. There are a few things in the game that just require human ancestry (the Scion of Dantalion prestige class, for instance), which do allow half-orcs and the like, but ranger favored enemy is based on subtypes.

Tempest Fennac
2008-07-02, 12:45 PM
Thanks for the feat advice. I honestly don't have any intentions of dipping into just 1 class, though (also I'd class the idea of taking a Cleric level with the justification being that it brings you closer to your diety to be poor: it strikes me as taking several months off from a Dentistry course to do a Mechanics course because you like car engines).

RebelRogue
2008-07-02, 12:57 PM
Undead is a nice choice, since it's fairly common (with Undead type trumping all other types). You will feel horribly ripped off once in a while when you encounter those "immune to ekstra damage from favored enemy" undead monsters, but they're rare. I think Human is anouther pretty solid choice. Remember, that the bonuses applies to Bluff and Sense Motive as well as damage. At least in the games I've played we've encountered humans fairly often.

Keld Denar
2008-07-02, 01:24 PM
While class leveling mechanically is very linear (take one level, then another level, then another level, etc), a character doesn't know that they've leveled in cleric or fighter or commoner. They just know that they've aquired new skills. A character doesn't ding 5th level and decide, "hey, I wanna get more in touch with my god" and start learning more about clerichood so that he can take his 6th level as a cleric. Maybe the character was always particularly pious and only around 6th level did his god decide he was strong enough in faith to handle the responibility of casting and starts granting him spells.

Using your example, maybe he's going to school for dentistry, but is a member of a local car enthusiest group that works on cars. Because he spends a good portion of his time studying for those really hard dentistry classes, he doesn't have a lot of time to work on cars, but tinkers a lot on weekends. Finally, after 3 years of tinkering on weekends, he finishes rebuilding his exhaust system on his hotrod and gains enough experience to take a level of mechanic. Now he's a Dentist3/Mechanic1, but all he knows is that he's been studying his butt off in dentistry but is becoming decent at cars, more proficient than a normal person who doesn't have any levels in mechanic.

Tempest Fennac
2008-07-02, 01:35 PM
hat's one way of looking at it. My stance tends to be that all of the PC classes should require at least some training before you can take a level in them (also, I just don't like the idea of multiclassing anyway in most cases due to seeing it as either suboptimal, or because it means limiting my character concept).
Scout/Ranger doesn't have these problems, which is why I really like the idea, but adding a Cleric or Warblade level onto it for a specific bonus doesn't appeal to me (It remnds me of 1 ridiculous character on WotC's website which had level 1 stats of (I think) Str 16, Con 14, Dex, Int, Wis 12, and Cha 8 which was something like Barbarian 3/Rogue2/Cleric2/Ranger3 by level 10 (I tend to take the stance that full casters should have at least 16 in their primary spellcasting stat at level 1 due to the ide that only the very brightest/wisest/most charasmatic peopple should be able to learn spells, so the Cleric level wouldn't work for my Ranger).
Also, I'd lose skill points while getting an Exp penalty from adding 1 extra level (I want to avoid both of these at all costs).

Eldariel
2008-07-02, 07:11 PM
I like to think your character isn't the classes that are on the paper, but rather the person you play him as and his abilties are derived from who he is rather than what classes you've picked; classes are simply a mechanical representation of the whole. Full casters have no problems with the class-thing, since they're better off taking just one class all the way any ways, but melee is pretty badly mangled if limited in how many classes you can take as you really need multiple classes and abilities to really make melee work out ok.

If you use experience penalties though, of course you should do all in your power to avoid them; Ranger 15/Scout 3/Cleric 2 may work better there. Provided you have Favored Class: Ranger, you'll take no penalties there and still get all the goodies. Also, I don't feel Cleric needs to be trained; just someone with a very strong connection to their deity and the desire to spread his/her glory. Ranger already has a strong connection to his/her deity due to the ability to cast divine spells, so a Ranger/Cleric just has taken that aspect further than a straight Ranger.

Tempest Fennac
2008-07-03, 12:29 AM
Lupins have Ranger as their favoured class (I always thought Swashbuckler would work better due to how their culture is based of Renaissance France in a lot of cases. Ranger works for the ones with a NW Native American culture, though). I still disagree about Cleric really adding to this in a positive way: I'd be getting Ranger and Scout abilities at a slower pace in exchange for some level 1 spells and 1 neat ability which I could probably do without with the melee build which I suggested earlier.
Also, based on Clerics being in the "requires the most training" catagory, I disagree with the idea that you wouldn't need training to get a level in it (I'd agree if you were talking about Adepts due to their fluff stating that they only have the bare minimum of training that's needed to cast Divine spells). Besides, taking Cleric levels still means that I'm forced to play a religious character, which I don't want to do in this case (I tend to see classes as being an important part of the characters personalities due to how much impact they have on how the character acts in certain situations, while being the main factor in regards to how they solve problems).

Curmudgeon
2008-07-03, 09:14 AM
Half-Orc and Human are two different races.

If we follow your logic, then taking Favored Enemy(Human) would allow you to apply your bonus to any race
This doesn't follow at all. Half-Orc is also Half-Human. Half-Elf is also Half-Human. If something is Half-Human, their human parentage should count just as much as their other half.

marjan
2008-07-03, 09:19 AM
This doesn't follow at all. Half-Orc is also Half-Human. Half-Elf is also Half-Human. If something is Half-Human, their human parentage should count just as much as their other half.

Quote the rule that says that. They are treated as Orcs/Elves only because of the Orc/Elf Blood racial feature, not because they are Half-X.

Talya
2008-07-03, 10:12 AM
There are 2 different types of swift hunters. Melee, and ranged. Melee swift hunters typically are two-weapon fighters, to maximize number of attacks and thus d6s thrown. These typically include some form of pounce to allow for movement + full attack. Easiest ways to aquire pounce or pseudo-pounce are CC Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian, OA (?) Frost Tiger Berzerker Lodge feat, CC Travel Devotion, or a use activated item of Psionic Hustle. These all allow you to move more than 10' and still have the option of making a full attack.


Catfolk (RotW) would work well too. (Favored ranger, pounce as a racial feat.) And like Barbarian, they have 40' movement.

marjan
2008-07-03, 11:59 AM
Catfolk (RotW) would work well too. (Favored ranger, pounce as a racial feat.) And like Barbarian, they have 40' movement.

Catfolks still have a problem of being able to perform pounce only on flat-footed opponents.

Talya
2008-07-03, 12:28 PM
Catfolks still have a problem of being able to perform pounce only on flat-footed opponents.

Flick of the Wrist!

TempusCCK
2008-07-03, 12:42 PM
If I may suggest, I did some rather in depth thought about the Ranger Favored Enemy a while back, and the link for the variants are in my signature, if you see anything you like, take a look and run it by your DM, it's there to be used.

marjan
2008-07-03, 01:04 PM
Flick of the Wrist!

Heavy requirements + doesn't work.

Tempest Fennac
2008-07-03, 01:19 PM
Thanks for the link, TempusCCK (I'll read over it now). Talya, Catfolk were mentioned earlier, and I decided against using one of those due to the LA (and I'd sooner use a Lupin). How does Flick of the Wrist work?

marjan
2008-07-03, 01:36 PM
How does Flick of the Wrist work?

When you draw a light weapon and attack with it in the same round, target is considered flat-footed for that attack. You can use it only once per round and once per encounter against the same target.

Tempest Fennac
2008-07-03, 01:45 PM
Thanks (that sounds limiting). I really liked the sound of the "More Bang For Your Buck" Variant, Tempus (it sounded simple as well as effective).