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View Full Version : eldritch glaive's big brother (warlock invocation)



Stycotl
2008-07-03, 03:37 PM
i thought i posted this yesterday, but apparently i never hit the send button. anyway, new invocation. kind like eldritch glaive, but can be used with any attack sequence, including standard attack+move action sequences, which the other one currently lacks. therefore, a little more versatile, and then i threw in the other stuff just to make it a cooler invocation to waste one of your precious slots on. yes, this is specifically for warlocks, though i am sure it could easily enough be adapted to other invokers.

enjoy. aaron out.

Chain Viper

(Blast Shape; Greater Invocation; 6th Level)

Your eldritch blast takes on physical substance, appearing similar to a spiked chain. As a swift action, you can summon the chain viper to your hands, enabling you to attack as if wielding a weapon. The chain viper has reach, so you can strike opponents 10 feet away with it. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, it can be used against an adjacent foe, and if you hit, your target is affected as if struck by your eldritch blast (including any eldritch essence applied to the blast). Unlike hideous blow, you cannot combine your chain viper with damage from a held weapon. Furthermore, until the start of your next turn, you also threaten nearby squares as if wielding a reach weapon, and you can make attacks of opportunity with your chain viper. These are finessable melee touch attacks.

If your base attack bonus is +6 or higher, you can (as part of a full-round action) make as many attacks with your chain viper as your base attack bonus allows. For example, a 12th-level warlock could attack twice, once with a base attack bonus of +9, and again with a base attack bonus of +4.

Stycotl
2008-07-07, 12:14 AM
nadie? this one i thought would at least get some comment. i figured some would love it, and some wuld hate it.

Stycotl
2008-07-08, 09:36 AM
oh come on. i know there's at least someone out there that thinks this is super cheese, probably the same people that think eldritch glaive is cheese to begin with. or the spiker chain for that matter. so you can't tell me that combining the two hasn't offended anyone.

at the same time, however, i would really like to see if there is anyone out there that likes it.

DracoDei
2008-07-08, 09:51 AM
More fluff/visual description would be nice, even if it is only a default to work from...

From what little I understand, yes, this is pretty powerful... never actually SEEN the rules for Warlocks... but the idea of doing their damage multiple times per round to a single target (and touch attacks are usually pretty darn easy to make compare to a full-BAB class trying to hit normal AC as I understand it)... is this a feat? A selected class feature? I assume the second...

Duke of URL
2008-07-08, 11:44 AM
Swift action rather than full-round action to initiate: No real problem, given that it's a Greater invocation

Reach plus adjacent: Cheesy, but not overpowered for a Greater invocation

Trip capable: Pointless.

Disarm capable: Pointless.

Finessable: Touch attacks already are, by definition.

The real problem here is your wording is very confusing -- you refer to "all melee attacks" and then immediately turn around and say "melee touch attacks". The first one reads as if it is intended as Hideous Blow on steroids (which might make it usable) and the second is more like Eldritch Glaive.

What I presume you mean is that the invoker may make iterative attacks (and opportunity attacks until the start of his next turn) using Chain Viper, where each attack is a melee touch attack that deals full Eldritch Blast damage (plus Eldritch Essence effects? You don't say one way or the other...) on a successful hit.

The biggest advantage of this invocation is that it only requires a swift action -- this allows for move + attack or attack + move, while still providing a weapon that can reliably perform significant amounts of damage on an AoO. The biggest drawback to Eldritch Glaive is that you can't use it in combination with a move action, meaning you have to use one turn to get into position before unleashing the Glaive of Doom (patent pending).

Trip and disarm are kind of pointless. You're better off dealing damage, and you're unlikely to have the STR necessary to do either reliably, anyway.

If anything, adding reach + adjacent and making it a swift action might make this a Dark invocation rather than a Greater one, but that's borderline.

Stycotl
2008-07-08, 04:44 PM
Swift action rather than full-round action to initiate: No real problem, given that it's a Greater invocation

Reach plus adjacent: Cheesy, but not overpowered for a Greater invocation

Trip capable: Pointless.

Disarm capable: Pointless.

Finessable: Touch attacks already are, by definition.

The real problem here is your wording is very confusing -- you refer to "all melee attacks" and then immediately turn around and say "melee touch attacks". The first one reads as if it is intended as Hideous Blow on steroids (which might make it usable) and the second is more like Eldritch Glaive.

What I presume you mean is that the invoker may make iterative attacks (and opportunity attacks until the start of his next turn) using Chain Viper, where each attack is a melee touch attack that deals full Eldritch Blast damage (plus Eldritch Essence effects? You don't say one way or the other...) on a successful hit.

The biggest advantage of this invocation is that it only requires a swift action -- this allows for move + attack or attack + move, while still providing a weapon that can reliably perform significant amounts of damage on an AoO. The biggest drawback to Eldritch Glaive is that you can't use it in combination with a move action, meaning you have to use one turn to get into position before unleashing the Glaive of Doom (patent pending).

Trip and disarm are kind of pointless. You're better off dealing damage, and you're unlikely to have the STR necessary to do either reliably, anyway.

If anything, adding reach + adjacent and making it a swift action might make this a Dark invocation rather than a Greater one, but that's borderline.

very cool points. let's see if i can tackle them all.

reach+adjacent: yeah. uber, but for a greater invocation, doesn't scream twinkie at me.

disarm/trip: just thought it'd be cool to have it mimic an actual spiked chain. however, your comment about a warlock not having the stats or necessity to try trips/disarms is spot-on. hadn't even crossed my mind. going to yank those abilities...

finessable: yes, but there is always confusion there on the pbp, so i thought i'd clarify.

confusing text: hmmm, lemme try to translate from my pidgeon-speak into something that resembles intelligible english. sad to say, but it is even my first language.

the jist of it: you got it, a version of eldritch glaive that you can use on a move action. i love eg, but i can't use it unless i'm full-attacking, which as a light-weight warlock, is not always the optimal idea. plus, i'm a spring-attack fan at heart (in real combat, if you don't move, you're just wasting time and ammo).

possible dark invocation: i had played around with that idea. when compared with some other greaters, i feel that it is powerful. but when i compare dark invocations with spells, usually the higher level invocations don't pan out. like that essence that gives two negative levels (isn't that a dark?), while the local archmage is dishing out 4-8 negative levels with one spell. i relaize he can generally only do that once in a day, but next encounter he hits them with horrid wilting, or uber-empowered-yadda yadda. warlock's shtick is that he can do it multimple times a day. but that only comes in handy a little bit, so i have felt that the warlock deserves at least a few uber invocations. i think others agree (look at demented one's homebrew invocations, especially the dragonfire adept-ish one).

chain viper was meant to be a mix, powerful, but still requiring hits, and the warlock to enter combat. gives it a little bit of a leash right there.

anyway, i'll play with the wording and see if i can make it understandable.

thanks all for the brainstorming.

aaron out.

Stycotl
2008-07-08, 04:51 PM
Swift action rather than full-round action to initiate: No real problem, given that it's a Greater invocation

Reach plus adjacent: Cheesy, but not overpowered for a Greater invocation

Trip capable: Pointless.

Disarm capable: Pointless.

Finessable: Touch attacks already are, by definition.

The real problem here is your wording is very confusing -- you refer to "all melee attacks" and then immediately turn around and say "melee touch attacks". The first one reads as if it is intended as Hideous Blow on steroids (which might make it usable) and the second is more like Eldritch Glaive.

What I presume you mean is that the invoker may make iterative attacks (and opportunity attacks until the start of his next turn) using Chain Viper, where each attack is a melee touch attack that deals full Eldritch Blast damage (plus Eldritch Essence effects? You don't say one way or the other...) on a successful hit.

The biggest advantage of this invocation is that it only requires a swift action -- this allows for move + attack or attack + move, while still providing a weapon that can reliably perform significant amounts of damage on an AoO. The biggest drawback to Eldritch Glaive is that you can't use it in combination with a move action, meaning you have to use one turn to get into position before unleashing the Glaive of Doom (patent pending).

Trip and disarm are kind of pointless. You're better off dealing damage, and you're unlikely to have the STR necessary to do either reliably, anyway.

If anything, adding reach + adjacent and making it a swift action might make this a Dark invocation rather than a Greater one, but that's borderline.

very cool points. let's see if i can tackle them all.

reach+adjacent: yeah. uber, but for a greater invocation, doesn't scream twinkie at me.

disarm/trip: just thought it'd be cool to have it mimic an actual spiked chain. however, your comment about a warlock not having the stats or necessity to try trips/disarms is spot-on. hadn't even crossed my mind. going to yank those abilities...

finessable: yes, but there is always confusion there on the pbp, so i thought i'd clarify.

confusing text: hmmm, lemme try to translate from my pidgeon-speak into something that resembles intelligible english. sad to say, but it is even my first language.

the jist of it: you got it, a version of eldritch glaive that you can use on a move action. i love eg, but i can't use it unless i'm full-attacking, which as a light-weight warlock, is not always the optimal idea. plus, i'm a spring-attack fan at heart (in real combat, if you don't move, you're just wasting time and ammo).

possible dark invocation: i had played around with that idea. when compared with some other greaters, i feel that it is powerful. but when i compare dark invocations with spells, usually the higher level invocations don't pan out. like that essence that gives two negative levels (isn't that a dark?), while the local archmage is dishing out 4-8 negative levels with one spell. i relaize he can generally only do that once in a day, but next encounter he hits them with horrid wilting, or uber-empowered-yadda yadda. warlock's shtick is that he can do it multimple times a day. but that only comes in handy a little bit, so i have felt that the warlock deserves at least a few uber invocations. i think others agree (look at demented one's homebrew invocations, especially the dragonfire adept-ish one).

chain viper was meant to be a mix, powerful, but still requiring hits, and the warlock to enter combat. gives it a little bit of a leash right there.

anyway, i'll play with the wording and see if i can make it understandable.

thanks all for the brainstorming.

aaron out.

Stycotl
2008-07-08, 07:29 PM
original wording.


Superior to eldritch glaive, as a swift act, make all melee attacks this round deal eldritch blast damage with melee touch attacks. These attacks function in all other ways as an unarmed touch attack that has the reach (10+adjacent), trip (capable), disarm (+2), and weapon finesse capability of a spiked chain. An unarmed strike delivering the touch attack also deals unarmed damage if within unarmed reach (usually 5 feet).

how does the new one ^ (up top) sound compared to this old one? pretty much i just copied the eldritch glaive text and changed it where relevant.

Duke of URL
2008-07-09, 02:04 PM
Much cleaner.

DracoDei
2008-07-09, 03:59 PM
Keep the Trip and Disarm even it they are going to be useless 99.9% of the time (hey you might want to relieve the BBEG of his Staff of the Magi before he can Stilled Dimension Door away...). If nothing else they add flavor.

Stycotl
2008-07-09, 05:00 PM
what about keeping them in, but using the warlock's charisma modifier on trip/disarm attempts?

Draz74
2008-07-11, 02:22 AM
what about keeping them in, but using the warlock's charisma modifier on trip/disarm attempts?

That sounds like it should be a whole separate (Least or Lesser) invocation.

EDIT: It really should be a Least invocation in terms of its own power, but that means you'll start seeing a lot of Fighter-types dipping one level of Warlock, so you may want to make it Lesser anyway. Or maybe rule that the cap on this bonus is equal to your Warlock level?

Stycotl
2008-07-19, 11:20 PM
That sounds like it should be a whole separate (Least or Lesser) invocation.

EDIT: It really should be a Least invocation in terms of its own power, but that means you'll start seeing a lot of Fighter-types dipping one level of Warlock, so you may want to make it Lesser anyway. Or maybe rule that the cap on this bonus is equal to your Warlock level?

hmm. well, i'm not really looking to make another invocation right now, and if i was, it would have to give bonuses to disarm, bull rush, trip, grapple, and other stuff, just to make it worth it. i probably wouldn't do it as a 24-hr buff. i would probably make it pretty powerful, give it a duration of rounds, make it a greater invoc, and probably finish it off with fatigue or at least a saving throw or fatigued, or something like that.

that could be kind of cool though.

aaron out.

EDIT: so, yeah, um, this invocation. i think i will leave off the trip/disarm bonuses in order to keep it a greater invocation. it would feel like a dark invoc if i gave it the charisma bonus-to hit deal.