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Evil DM Mark3
2008-07-04, 08:22 AM
My local gaming group recently had a not-small problem occur. We discovered that our new member was a fan of (and kept pushing for us to play) FATAL. For those of you who know of FATAL this guy has about 85% of the traits you would assume where required to like it (he denies that FATAL is Mysogenistic or Homophobic and sees the racist armour as humorous) and his personality got worse seemingly by the hour. (WARNING CRUDE AND POTENTIALLY OFFENSIVE:"Can I use my ride skill on the dryad" is about the only one of his later comments that I can squeeze under the CoC)We tried to drop hints and edge him out but, perhaps unsurprisingly, he seemed immune to our hinting. We ended up changing our day so as to get rid of him after he turned up after being told "We don't want you in this group, sorry." because "Nah, you where joking, where is the cola, hey **** go and get me a chair willya."

I wanted first to spread the warning that there are those out there who have read FATAL out of more than Morbid Curiosity (Don't BTW, just don't. I ENJOY bad stuff but this was so terrible that, if it where a film, MST3K would have refused to do it.) and second to ask how you deal with problem or jerky players.

Tengu
2008-07-04, 08:24 AM
D4 up every nostril.

Roderick_BR
2008-07-04, 08:33 AM
I heard about FATAL, and thought about reading it, but I was told it's too long and has too many rules :smalltongue:
Plus, it has too many dead baby humor. If I want to read about stupidity, I'll go check Encyclopedia Dramatica.

Btw, my group used to make similar jokes like the dryad one in our D&D games. Always light hearted, of course :smallbiggrin:

horseboy
2008-07-04, 09:01 AM
You do realize there are FATAL fans on this forum, right?

UglyPanda
2008-07-04, 09:07 AM
Tell him your game is PG-13 and/or just kick him out. No good can come of this situation. Also, how old is this guy? I'm curious as to whether he's brain-addled or immature.

Evil DM Mark3
2008-07-04, 09:09 AM
You do realize there are FATAL fans on this forum, right?

Really? Wow, um, sorry if I offended anyone but after reading those 900 pages it was almost a month before someone was able to convince me that FATAL was not an over dedicated satire of bad RPGs.

I did not wish to imply that anyone who may enjoy playing FATAL, for whatever reasons they may have for that, as being an insensitive jerk of the first water. This guy however was and we had no idea on how on deal with him.


Tell him your game is PG-13 and/or just kick him out. No good can come of this situation. Also, how old is this guy? I'm curious as to whether he's brain-addled or immature.

17. The thing is we did try and just tell him. For some reason the words "get out" bounced off his skull. Most of our gamers are quite reserved folks, save for me and this other guy, and both of us are highly concious of offending 1)The other players and 2)The people who's room we use with loud or foul language.

Tengu
2008-07-04, 09:20 AM
You do realize there are FATAL fans on this forum, right?

Really? Wow! I'd like to ask them what do they like in it. Is it bile fascination (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BileFascination)? Maybe they love mental masochism? Or maybe they really lack taste in games to such a degree that they find FATAL edgy, realistic and written in a funny way?

This post is not ironic. I'm really curious.

xPANCAKEx
2008-07-04, 09:25 AM
grow a backbone/"pair" as neccisary - and just tell him you really don't want him in the group anymnore and its not a joke. If he doesn't fit with the group, then he doesn't fit. You don't HAVE to let him onto your property, and if he forcibly tries to enter, then it becomes a criminal matter.

simple.

horseboy
2008-07-04, 09:26 AM
Swordguy has posted a couple times about his play XP with it. Granted I haven't been on in a couple months, so it's probably buried pretty deep. Do a search.

Freelance Henchman
2008-07-04, 09:45 AM
Whoa. I hope you won't need to actually call the cops to throw this guy out of the house like what happened to that one guy in the "horrors of gaming" thread. :smallfrown:

Kurald Galain
2008-07-04, 10:02 AM
You do realize there are FATAL fans on this forum, right?

There you go (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3488685&postcount=44).

That appears to be a fan, singular, though.

Evil DM Mark3
2008-07-04, 10:13 AM
How can a system where it is possible for a critical hit with an arrow to rupture the appendix of, break the tibia of and castrate a woman? A system where having your guts hanging out of your belly button is a minor inconvenience and where by the rules it is utterly impossibly for any woman to ever give birth?

Scintillatus
2008-07-04, 10:44 AM
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll186/Scintillatus/what.jpg

I'm not mature enough to handle the misogyny, racism, homophobia, general "LOL BEING DIRTY IS AWESOME" attitude and stuff, I guess?

Wow. What the hell? What the hell?

Freelance Henchman
2008-07-04, 12:09 PM
I'm not mature enough to handle the misogyny, racism, homophobia, general "LOL BEING DIRTY IS AWESOME" attitude and stuff, I guess?

Wow. What the hell? What the hell?

The sole reason FATAL exists is so that the most awesomest and hilarious "review" ever (http://atrocities.primaryerror.net/fatal.html) could be written about it. Well, not quite review, it's more like a crucification.

Collin152
2008-07-04, 12:14 PM
The game is Homophobic?
That's it... I shall suffer it to exist no longer!
Brethren! Come hither with thine pitchforks and flamethrowers!
We go hence to burn yon book of the devil!

Tengu
2008-07-04, 12:16 PM
Saying that FATAL is homophobic is like saying that the ocean is a bit moist.

Freelance Henchman
2008-07-04, 12:19 PM
Actually, that's exactly the type of behavior I would expect from someone who actually likes FATAL. Totally obnoxious and loathsome and too stupid to take a hint.

Collin152
2008-07-04, 12:25 PM
Actually, that's exactly the type of behavior I would expect from someone who actually likes FATAL. Totally obnoxious and loathsome and too stupid to take a hint.

Who's obnoxious and loathsome now?

Freelance Henchman
2008-07-04, 12:31 PM
Who's obnoxious and loathsome now?

I'm too pretty to be loathsome! :smallsmile:

Renegade Paladin
2008-07-04, 12:33 PM
Tell him to get out. If he refuses, remove him. If he won't take a hint, there's really nothing else to do.

Stormthorn
2008-07-04, 12:40 PM
After going here and reading a review (http://www.gamewyrd.com/review/567) im going to need someone to explain why its safe to assume that anyone who plays this game is an *******, because from an outside perspective, you all come off like *******s too.

Collin152
2008-07-04, 12:47 PM
Theres a stat that measures how fast you can talk.
I don't think it's possible to not want to burn this game into a pile of homophobic ashes.

Freelance Henchman
2008-07-04, 12:48 PM
After going here and reading a review (http://www.gamewyrd.com/review/567) im going to need someone to explain why its safe to assume that anyone who plays this game is an *******, because from an outside perspective, you all come off like *******s too.

Let me return that compliment, buddy. Also, this this other review (http://atrocities.primaryerror.net/fatal.html) goes into detail why FATAL is not very good.

Artanis
2008-07-04, 12:56 PM
I suggest fire.

Tell him to leave and never come back. If he refuses, set him on fire and tell him again. That might get the hint across.



As for the argument that FATAL isn't entirely terrible? I have five words for that:
"Now roll for anal circumference."

Killersquid
2008-07-04, 12:57 PM
I thought Fatal fans were rumors spread by DMs to keep their players in line.

Project_Mayhem
2008-07-04, 01:09 PM
How can a system where it is possible for a critical hit with an arrow to rupture the appendix of, break the tibia of and castrate a woman? A system where having your guts hanging out of your belly button is a minor inconvenience and where by the rules it is utterly impossibly for any woman to ever give birth?

Now I have to check it out

Stormthorn
2008-07-04, 01:17 PM
Let me return that compliment, buddy. Also, this this other review goes into detail why FATAL is not very good.

I cant make that link work.

I did read a review by these two guys who type in white and red. Well, part of it. I found their language foul and their manner very crude. I could only read the same "The guys who made/play this is/are a/an ***/s" joke so many times before i wanted to shoot myself.

So i have read two reviews. One talks about gameplay aspects and how detailed the math is.

The the other is a mess of homophobic jokes.

Im not looking to favorably on the people who dislike the game.

Killersquid
2008-07-04, 01:21 PM
I did read a review by these two guys who type in white and red. Well, part of it. I found their language foul and their manner very crude. I could only read the same "The guys who made/play this is/are a/an ***/s" joke so many times before i wanted to shoot myself.

That was the link he linked you, and although they may be foul and crude, the detail they go into about the pure badness of the game is great, and a lot of the criticism against it is warranted.

Freelance Henchman
2008-07-04, 01:24 PM
The the other is a mess of homophobic jokes.


Uh, what? How is the *review* homophobic? The *game* is.

Stormthorn
2008-07-04, 01:32 PM
Uh, what? How is the *review* homophobic? The *game* is.

I will provide one example. Not word for word, because i dont have the patience to look at the review again.
They say something about how out of the 1000 hours of research, 900 of them must have been spent with the game designers sitting around engaging in mutual masturbation. Thats not how they worded it, but i dont want to repeat what the review says.

Now the review itself spends its time talking about how badly the game treats women. In the several pages that i actualy read completly it didnt mention homophobia in the game at all.

Another example just for fun. the reviewer says the maker is lower than the average homosexual. The implication being that gay men are somehow less than hetrosexual men to begin with.

Evil DM Mark3
2008-07-04, 01:34 PM
In this box is a quote from the game. It is fairly typical and, in deference to the concerns that people over focus on sexuality and violence aspects this is an armour enhancement. It is however in a box because it CAN and WILL offend. It is fairly typical and ought to be all the argument we need when you consider that there is a LOT MORE like this, and quite a bit worse.

50. Nigrous Nincompoopery, of: Whosoever dons this armor experiences a loss of 1d100 points from each sub-ability of Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma. The ass of the wearer will grow by 50% and be abnormally high. If the wearer is male, then those around him are 80% likely to believe that his manhood has increased, though it has not. The skin of the wearer becomes cursed and dark as night. Disposition turns to UI. Temperament becomes phlegmatic. The eyes of the wearer are visible 3 miles away at night. The wearer will have a body odor for 1d10 feet. On the bright side, the Physical Fitness of the wearer increases by 10%. The armor may be removed at will.

Mark Hall
2008-07-04, 01:34 PM
Do you play in a game store, or a private home?

In a game store, there is very little you can do; the store owners will have to eject him, and few will be willing to do that.

If you play in a private home, have the homeowner (or the renter; the legal occupant) inform him that he is not welcome, and must leave. If he refuses, tell him you are calling the police to have him removed.

If it was just someone being a jerk, that's one thing. However, he's now inviting himself over, starting to take things, and doing it while making everyone very uncomfortable.

Spiryt
2008-07-04, 01:36 PM
I just read about female Body Attractiveness. ( Higher BA = lower strenght and weight and bigger cup size).

Seriously, :smalleek:

Killersquid
2008-07-04, 01:36 PM
Another example just for fun. the reviewer says the maker is lower than the average homosexual. The implication being that gay men are somehow less than hetrosexual men to begin with.

I read the whole thing, and just looked around again, and no where does it say that.

Collin152
2008-07-04, 01:38 PM
it didnt mention homophobia in the game at all.



Naturally, you can also roll to see if characters are heterosexual or homosexual. Even better, being a male with low Strength or a female with high Strength (or low Cup Size) will bend your modifier towards the gay end of the scale. It's nice to see these lame stereotypes being paraded in such a realistic, historically accurate game.

I don't think you were looking very hard.
I got that in about 2 seconds.

kjones
2008-07-04, 01:50 PM
This game is what, 5-6 years old now? I think few people ever took it seriously - most reasonable people who saw it revulsed and moved on. And yet, mentioning its name still has the power to incite an instant flamewar on any RPG forum, anywhere.

Seriously, just tell this guy that if he doesn't shut up about the game, he's out of the group, and enforce it. Just don't let him into your house. (If you're playing in a public place, as Nexx said, this becomes more difficult - maybe it's time to move to somebody's place.)

This thread isn't a discussion about whether or not it's a good system - that discussion wore out many years ago.

Evil DM Mark3
2008-07-04, 01:51 PM
I read the whole thing, and just looked around again, and no where does it say that.

Interestingly however in FATAL you have a higher chance of being homosexual if you are male if you are weaker. The inverse is true for women.

Now to be fair the reviewers do use language that is, shall we say, a little ripe? But having read the whole thing myself (FATAL that is, not the review, I read all of that too but that is not what I meant) I can sympathise with them, if not condone the use of that language. It ranges from the pointless (roll d10,000,000 on a table with 3 possible results to see how many babies the woman has) to the maddening (solve this binomial equation to determine the size of your druidic circle) whilst at all times sitting in the outright offensive.

Oh and you know that review, the one that was not damning of FATAL? Here are two forum posts by the author: (http://www.gamewyrd.com/forums/posts.php?thread=966&id=9)


fair enough I see your point. I guess I'm a little bit more numb to contorverscial things then most people. When I first saw F.A.T.A.L. I saw some sick stuff but I also saw the detailed realistic system that I've been looking for. So I had to compromise and wade through all the twisted stuff and use only what I liked. And that's what I did. I'm use to it cuz I've modified the rules to almost every system I've used. Except with this one, I only had to remove things. Just curius (sp?), when was the last time you looked at fatal? It's been cleaned up a little bit over the past 2-3 years (not much but a little... at least there's no rape rules anymore...). Plus I've helped to add some sane rules such as the affects of sleep depravation, etc.

Nevermind I just found the rape rules. It's now under wrestling (rolls eyes). I guess it's something else for me to wade through.

chiasaur11
2008-07-04, 01:54 PM
I suggest fire.

Tell him to leave and never come back. If he refuses, set him on fire and tell him again. That might get the hint across.



As for the argument that FATAL isn't entirely terrible? I have five words for that:
"Now roll for anal circumference."

I agree. Fire and lots of it.

Of course, if your plan previously involved ninjas, it'll need to be adjusted accordingly.

Stormthorn
2008-07-04, 01:57 PM
Wait! I did find two mentions in the review of homosexuality in the game. One is mentioned as being stereotypical and the other has a low score being classified as "gay" which i will admit is homophobic but no more than the average high-schooler. Not cool, bu tnt as bad as the review itself.

And i looked but couldnt re-locate the comment he made about the creator being worse than a homosexual.

I did get these little nuggets of respect from the review though.

and (of course) gay butt****ing ogre RPG, but one thing at a time!

Well, and when I couldn't help picturing him in a lavender bunny suit as he typed.

Zeus and Odin must have been total ass-bandits
The first is a comment about what type of RPG the game is. The second is about the guy who made it. The third is...i cant remember where i found that. Damn. Im going to have to go back through that crap pile.

And i only looked in the first half the review for these.

Seriously dude. The game doesnt seem very good but complicated mechanics and options for sex doesnt make it bad automaticly and it doesnt make people wh have read the rules bad people.

Collin152
2008-07-04, 02:01 PM
Wait! I did find two mentions in the review of homosexuality in the game. One is mentioned as being stereotypical and the other has a low score being classified as "gay" which i will admit is homophobic but no more than the average high-schooler. Not cool, bu tnt as bad as the review itself.



Seriously dude. The game doesnt seem very good but complicated mechanics and options for sex doesnt make it bad automaticly and it doesnt make people wh have read the rules bad people.

The average High-schooler also incurs my wrath.
Don't make me destroy you, too.


Yes, yes it does.
Also, a roll for sperm count.
Is that insufficient?

EDIT: Aw, you preemptive edited me. Now I look like a bad person.
unsubstitute 'people who read the rules' for 'the game'

Stormthorn
2008-07-04, 02:15 PM
I wouldnt buy it, but posting a thread entitled "Help, FATAL fan detected" just seems extreme. Boardering on flaming.

Just saying that a little tolerance doesnt hurt.

Collin152
2008-07-04, 02:22 PM
I wouldnt buy it, but posting a thread entitled "Help, FATAL fan detected" just seems extreme. Boardering on flaming.

Just saying that a little tolerance doesnt hurt.

But if you encourage them, it won't die.
Would you do that to the world?

Behold_the_Void
2008-07-04, 02:34 PM
Do you play in a game store, or a private home?

In a game store, there is very little you can do; the store owners will have to eject him, and few will be willing to do that.

If you play in a private home, have the homeowner (or the renter; the legal occupant) inform him that he is not welcome, and must leave. If he refuses, tell him you are calling the police to have him removed.

If it was just someone being a jerk, that's one thing. However, he's now inviting himself over, starting to take things, and doing it while making everyone very uncomfortable.

I agree with this here. I always game at my place or a friend's place, so if that's the case for you as well tell him to leave or you will call the police. If he doesn't, call the police. If you meet at a gaming store, bring up your issue to the proprietor and see if the proprietor will ask him to leave, if not, you might try meeting at someone's house, at least for awhile.

Evil DM Mark3
2008-07-04, 02:46 PM
I wouldnt buy it, but posting a thread entitled "Help, FATAL fan detected" just seems extreme. Boardering on flaming.

Just saying that a little tolerance doesnt hurt.

You know what? You are absolutely right, 100%. I was feeling annoyed and irritated and acted out of haste. True I didn't expect anyone who behaved like a proper memeber of civilised society to defend the system but:

1) I know fans exist and as such know i may encounter more, and thus have chosen a different title and
2) This title has derailed my thread.

A bad choice all around. However in my defence it was one of emotion, despair and (perhaps, I admit nothing) stupidity, not malice.

Eldritch_Ent
2008-07-04, 02:52 PM
Well, Stormthorn, some of us have actually read the review, and the game really IS very poorly researched. Or rather, it wasn't at all...

And the game really is extremely -phobic, insert your phobia of choice there...

What really gets me is that you're criticizing the review for being crude and foul, when the product itself is far, far worse, including such wonderful items as the "Rapeseed of Rape" and genitals sprouting from people's forehead... As well as rules for how much poop comes out of the target if you manage to hit them in certain key locations.

FATAL makes the Book of Vile Darkness look tame and nigh shakesperean in quality in comparison.

Chronos
2008-07-04, 02:59 PM
OK, so the argument made by those few who defend the game is that it just has all of those rules for rape, and sex, and rape, and disembowelment, and rape, and defecation, and rape, just because it's a highly detailed game, for simulating everything from history, and all of those things occurred in history.

I can't help but wonder: There was a lot of farming in history, too. Does F.A.T.A.L. include similarly detailed rules for farming? Can you roll for the chance of various types of crop failure? Are there tables for how much water, sunlight, and fertilizer is needed for corn vs. wheat vs. soybeans? Figures for the amount of man-hours needed to harvest an acre of potatoes, and how many people those potatoes will feed? Does it even have a single skill check for Profession (Farmer), like D&D does? Somehow, I suspect the answer is "no", but I'm not about to go reading 900 pages to find out...

Artanis
2008-07-04, 03:00 PM
I wouldnt buy it, but posting a thread entitled "Help, FATAL fan detected" just seems extreme. Boardering on flaming.

Just saying that a little tolerance doesnt hurt.
Actually yes, tolerance does hurt in this case. This is a (so-called) game that spends more time and effort on ways to rape people than on practically any other aspect of the game. And when it isn't fixated on rape, it's being sexist, racist, homophobic, or all of the above.

Devin
2008-07-04, 03:03 PM
To be fair, they probably did have "farmer" somewhere in that hideously long occupation list, but I got tired and just skipped the whole thing past the Ds.


Mostly, it just looks stupid and dull, and the "maturity" comes from just throwing in whatever the creators thought would be "edgy," along with their seeming fascination with rape.

Ranis
2008-07-04, 03:43 PM
What is FATAL an acronym for?

Killersquid
2008-07-04, 03:50 PM
From Another Time; Another Land, which is strange because Its NOT what it says on the tin.

Matthew
2008-07-04, 03:51 PM
From Another Time; Another Land, which is strange because Its NOT what it says on the tin.

That's because it was renamed, having originally had a much less audience friendly version of the acronym.

mikeejimbo
2008-07-04, 03:52 PM
I imagine someone has already PMed Ranis with what IS on the tin.

Collin152
2008-07-04, 04:08 PM
Ooh, let me guess!
...
Blank all the something something?

Guildorn Tanaleth
2008-07-04, 04:13 PM
I'm pretty sure it's something like "Fantasy Adventures To Adult Lechery."

Arbitrarity
2008-07-04, 04:26 PM
I could read through the entire ruleset looking for rules on farming... but that might hurt. A lot. So maybe not.

Whew. Fatalgames.com is dead.

Kiara LeSabre
2008-07-04, 04:37 PM
FATAL? Never heard of it.

It sounds obnoxious, silly and offensive from everything I've seen in this thread, yes, but I can't say that I'm offended as such if only because I've already been bombarded by just the stereotypes mentioned all of my life. Sounds all a bit old hat. FATAL may attempt to glorify the worst stereotypes, but it didn't create them.

Too, I don't have any emotion at all about the thought that someone might enjoy it. Many people enjoy a lot of things I dislike, and I'd be pretty silly to be surprised by that after all of this time.

I'd give it a miss for the same reason I'd give a game that centers around fart jokes a miss (or does this one have those, too? ... no, on second thought, I'd rather not know). I'm just amazed so many have heard of it, and I never have at all. Maybe everyone deliberately never mentioned it to me. :smalltongue:

Arbitrarity
2008-07-04, 04:38 PM
FATAL has a spell which forces people to fart. :smallconfused:

Artanis
2008-07-04, 04:41 PM
FATAL? Never heard of it.
Consider yourself lucky.

AslanCross
2008-07-04, 05:16 PM
I'm more concerned about the player rather than FATAL. If he continues entering your house uninvited, you could just call the cops on him. That's what happened in one of those 'Worst DM' stories.

Kurald Galain
2008-07-04, 06:33 PM
[QUOTE=Artanis;4532900]I suggest fire.[/quote

That won't work - you can't grab him while he's on fire.

I must say that the most commonly cited FATAL review is nearly as badly written as FATAL itself. Guess it rubs off.

Project_Mayhem
2008-07-04, 06:48 PM
I must say that the most commonly cited FATAL review is nearly as badly written as FATAL itself. Guess it rubs off.

Just read said review - come on, it's hilarious. It's main downfall is that it has tempted me to download the rules, just to see what their on about.

To be fair, the FATAL rulebook would probably amuse me. In the same way that certain fanfics, certain chans, and certain Big brothers do.

Yahzi
2008-07-04, 07:43 PM
Just read said review - come on, it's hilarious.
I agree. That review is the only good thing that will ever come of FATAL.

Perhaps it is necessary for people to write hideously malformed abominations like FATAL, so that other people can make us laugh by eviscerating them. What a depressing thought...

Freelance Henchman
2008-07-04, 07:53 PM
I agree. That review is the only good thing that will ever come of FATAL.

Perhaps it is necessary for people to write hideously malformed abominations like FATAL, so that other people can make us laugh by eviscerating them. What a depressing thought...

How is that depressing? For me it's a confirmation of the old adage that there's a bright side to everything. Even though the fools that wrote FATAL made the world a slightly worse place by publishing their vile, racist, homophobic, misogynist, rape-glorifying abortion of a RPG system, somebody else wrote that hilarious review and gave me some good laughs for free. Though I would prefer that humans that actually enjoy FATAL didn't exist, it's good to be reminded that there are people who *don't* enjoy something like that.

horseboy
2008-07-04, 08:05 PM
I'd give it a miss for the same reason I'd give a game that centers around fart jokes a miss (or does this one have those, too? ... no, on second thought, I'd rather not know). I'm just amazed so many have heard of it, and I never have at all. Maybe everyone deliberately never mentioned it to me. :smalltongue:Phart the Dispersing (http://wingnutgames.com/Phart!.html)? Yeah, it existed. You roleplayed about flatus. It was a spoof of White Wolf games.

Tequila Sunrise
2008-07-04, 08:17 PM
I've heard of FATAL approximately twice before today and I'd love to read for myself how horrendous it is, but the linky only ends in a bunch of video games.

TS

EvilElitest
2008-07-04, 10:19 PM
I find it amazing that we have totally left the original subject, but anyways i will say that FATAL is like the shreeded Moose of video games, it is just that vile
from
EE

Guildorn Tanaleth
2008-07-04, 10:56 PM
I find it amazing that we have totally left the original subject, but anyways i will say that FATAL is like the shreeded Moose of video games, it is just that vile

FATAL isn't a video game. It just taints the medium by vague association.

Starsinger
2008-07-04, 11:16 PM
FATAL isn't a video game. It just taints the medium by vague association.

I think EE has been so used to using Videogame as an insult to be lobbed at pen and paper games, that he mistyped and actually meant to insert some other word there...

Mark Hall
2008-07-05, 01:22 AM
FATAL has a spell which forces people to fart. :smallconfused:

Bah, those spells have been around forever; AD&D cantrips in Unearthed Arcana included "Belch", "Scratch", "Sneeze" and "Twitch". "Fart" isn't that big of a stretch.

Not defending FATAL, mind you, but that sort of thing has a long history.

Jade_Tarem
2008-07-05, 01:24 AM
FATAL, in addition to being unnecessarily perverse, bigoted, and outright sick, is also completely superfluous. GURPS (Generic Universal Role Playing System) also models every possible situation and character that could ever arise (pretty much), and does it using just a d6 and appropriate modifiers. It's complex, but it's clean, entertaining, incredibly comprehensive, and very versatile and is therefore better than FATAL in every way. It's why many popular webcomics/shows/other franchises looking to make an RPG based on their webcomic/show/other franchise do so by modelling it in GURPS and selling/posting the specific rule sets and templates for a GURPS game of that.

That's my two cents on that.

As for the player, I would have to agree with the other posters. Move to a private residence. Deny him access. If he wants to make trouble after that, call the cops on him and have them take him off your hands.

Bayar
2008-07-05, 04:04 AM
Sorry for asking this, but where can I download this ?

It is for the times my gaming group randomly start saying penis over and over again for 2-3 minutes.

Project_Mayhem
2008-07-05, 05:46 AM
Sorry for asking this, but where can I download this ?

It is for the times my gaming group randomly start saying penis over and over again for 2-3 minutes.

I know what you mean. It's like when I get the urge to watch something terrible like Highlander 2.

Bayar
2008-07-05, 04:16 PM
Ok, after browsing it a bit, it is clear. Anyone that reads that book and has some common ****ing sense will feel dumber. No save.

The side-effect is that you begin enjoying it :smallannoyed:

Ranis
2008-07-05, 07:07 PM
I imagine someone has already PMed Ranis with what IS on the tin.

No, they haven't. I'm trying to get a copy of the rules because I simply refuse to believe this system exists until I see it for myself.

monty
2008-07-05, 07:42 PM
I know what you mean. It's like when I get the urge to watch something terrible like Highlander 2.

Highlander what?

XenoGeno
2008-07-05, 09:08 PM
While I haven't read the rules (like the mjority of the posters flaming it), this sounds like a satire of the fantasy RPG in general. Instead of portraying medieval society in the way the average nerd views it, it portrays it as violent, crude, homophobic/sexist/racist as it really was, and how that society would be different with the inclusion of magic. Let's be honest, if D&D were trying to truly be like a realistic Middle Ages but with magic, it would probably turn out something like FATAL. I mean, "From Another Time, Another Land" seems like a pretty good title for this; an accurate RPG of what Medeival (another time) life would be like with a bit of high fantasy (another land) thrown in.

Hell, even the massive stats and rolling for everything could be a jab at how many RPGs stat out some of the most idiotic things (the Profession skill, anyone?).

However, I am also quite aware that this was not necessarily the creator's intent.

Silence
2008-07-05, 09:20 PM
After reading through this, I'm tempted to take a quick gander through the .pdf of the rules.

I fear my mind will never be the same.

Swordguy
2008-07-05, 11:51 PM
There you go (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3488685&postcount=44).

That appears to be a fan, singular, though.

Hmmm. I didn't know a more or less neutral post made me a "fan". The support in that post was pretty clearly aimed toward the "massive table" style of game-writing. I suppose I probably should have highlighted the important bit (nay, the point!) from that post:

People make the mistake that a FATAL campaign must focus on sex. It is under no such compunction. It simply has the mechanics to portray such if the group chooses to engage in such. Just like any other game, it is what the GM and group makes of it.

Moreover, from my point of view, whenever you play a half-orc in D&D without a pretty unusual background, you're tacitly acknowledging rape in the game world. FATAL, for all its horrendously-written, minimally-researched, and juvenile way, at least doesn't gloss over it. I give it due credit for that (that's ALL the credit I give it, to be clear). :smallamused:

Again, to be clear: I AM NOT A "FAN". I simply acknowledge that it does, in fact, have a fairly comprehensive (if poorly-written) set of rules (which DO include farming, btw) that covers a wider range of potential situations than many other games. That is a positive thing about it. There are many, many other negatives...

FoE
2008-07-06, 01:18 AM
Moreover, from my point of view, whenever you play a half-orc in D&D without a pretty unusual background, you're tacitly acknowledging rape in the game world.

As a Therkla fan, I take offence to that. You're forgetting a certain webcomic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0555.html) which called bull**** on that reasoning.

Also, orcs in Eberron are guardians of nature and exist largely in harmony with the other races (if anything, it is generally the elves who are xenophobic and ultra-violent).

And yes, you don't have to use the mechanics for sex listed in FATAL. You don't technically have to use the combat rules for Dungeons and Dragons either.

Swordguy
2008-07-06, 01:47 AM
As a Therkla fan, I take offence to that. You're forgetting a certain webcomic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0555.html) which called bull**** on that reasoning.

Also, orcs in Eberron are guardians of nature and exist largely in harmony with the other races (if anything, it is generally the elves who are xenophobic and ultra-violent).


Clearly, the phrase "in my opinion" means nothing to you.

As for Eberron, I don't touch that setting with a 10' pole, so I frankly don't care.



And yes, you don't have to use the mechanics for sex listed in FATAL. You don't technically have to use the combat rules for Dungeons and Dragons either.

I've done both, so don't try and tell me that you can't run a viable game that way. It's all about how you run the game, and what your players want out of it. Moreover, while the clear focus of D&D is combat and combat support abilities (read: spells), the focus of FATAL (in terms of pages of rules given to a topic) is...combat and combat abilities. People themselves tend to focus on the sex, but it's not the bulk of the game by any means. Further, thinking that a system is "bad" because you personally disagree with the subject matter is intellectually dishonest - BADD used the same reasoning about D&D in the 1980s. If you're going to attack an RPG system, have the decency to attack the rules and their playability, not subject matter. Subject matter is entirely a personal opinion, and as such has precisely ZERO validity in an argumentative position.

I'd make a further comparison about that line of thinking and what it almost led to for the gaming industry, but discussion of the details of BADDs attempts to ban D&D seems to be a violation of the forum rules, so until OK'd by a mod I'll leave it at that.

If the players never use those rules, and the GM never uses those rules, then does it really matter they're there? Does their presence suddenly invalidate the rest of the system? That sort of short-sighted belief is one step of sheer idiocy.

Or have reviews of a game from people who've never actually played the game matter now? You wouldn't tolerate those of any other game, why this one? If you've not read it through, even the crappy parts (ie, most of it) and played it long enough to understand how it plays in practice, then you aren't qualified to give a review of it.

Finally, let me make it clear: I object to being called a "fan" of this game. I respect the breadth of the rules (EDIT to clarify - "breadth" meaning the sheer number of situations that can be adjucated using the rules), and acknowledge that it is sort-of playable in practice - without indulging in juvenile and prurient interests. That is DISTINCTLY different from being a "fan".

Since I was directly called-out on that earlier in the thread, I figured I'd deal with that sad misconception. With that, I'm out of this discussion. I don't like the game enough to be drawn into an argument. As an RPG, it's not worth the time to type any more than I've already given it.

Aquillion
2008-07-06, 02:06 AM
As for Eberron, I don't touch that setting with a 10' pole, so I frankly don't care.Sooo... why didn't you treat FATAL the same way?

While there is (as you say) a level of subjectiveness involved in judging settings, that doesn't mean that all settings are equal. Bad art is bad. Bad writing is bad. MST2K-worthy movies are always MST2K-worthy. Ed Wood is not the great undiscovered artistic talent of his generation. The fact that my mother liked the random doodlings I made as a kindergardener did not make them great works of art. And the setting implied by FATAL is a much, much, much worse than Eberron, by orders of magnitude that defy any reasonable description.

Just because something is subjective doesn't mean it isn't real.

Swordguy
2008-07-06, 02:12 AM
Sooo... why didn't you treat FATAL the same way?

Didn't touch ANY of the settings for d20, except what came prepackaged in the core books. Don't like d20 in the first place, really, and I hate WotC fluff in general. I write my own.

I found FATAL completely by accident, without knowing what it was or having my view affected by online hype one way or another. Ergot, I gave it the same fair shake I try to give EVERY game system I read. I had [preexisting baggage against WotC, so I didn't give Eberron a trial (and from what I've seen and the art and fluff I've seen in passing, I feel I'm not missing anything). I didn't have baggage against the guys who did FATAL.

EDIT: Gah, your edit went up while I was typing.

While the setting implied by FATAL is indeed a grim one, it's more within the realm of reality (somewhat) than D&D. Really, if you got rid of the magic, you'd have a fairly reasonable "medieval peasant" simulator, if rules-burdened. The rest of the "give it a fair shake" argument should be answered by the above details.

Aquillion
2008-07-06, 02:14 AM
Didn't touch ANY of the settings for d20, except what came prepackaged in the core books. Don't like d20 in the first place, really, and I hate WotC fluff in general. I write my own.

I found FATAL completely by accident, without knowing what it was or having my view affected by online hype one way or another. Ergot, I gave it the same fair shake I try to give EVERY game system I read. I had [preexisting baggage against WotC, so I didn't give Eberron a trial (and from what I've seen and the art and fluff I've seen in passing, I feel I'm not missing anything). I didn't have baggage against the guys who did FATAL.Exactly how much baggage do you have against WOTC, if you tossed aside Eberron when you saw their logo on the spine, but kept reading FATAL even after you came across the rules for anal circumference checks?

Seriously. WOTC logo = worse than anal circumference checks?

FoE
2008-07-06, 02:19 AM
Clearly, the phrase "in my opinion" means nothing to you.

I noted it. That doesn't mean I can't take exception with your opinion and illustrate examples to back up my argument, which I did.


As for Eberron, I don't touch that setting with a 10' pole, so I frankly don't care.

And you defend FATAL's merits? Ugh. Discussion over.

Gamgee
2008-07-06, 02:19 AM
My mind is reeling already and I glanced at the review and listen to you guys... some things infest the dark corners of the world. We know of the first great legend to infest the dark places of the internet... FATAL... let it be locked in a tomb forever and never be spoken of again.

Swordguy
2008-07-06, 02:20 AM
Exactly how much baggage do you have against WOTC, if you tossed aside Eberron when you saw their logo on the spine, but kept reading FATAL even after you came across the rules for anal circumference checks?

Seriously. WOTC logo = worse than anal circumference checks?

Misinterpretation. I hated the preview artwork that I saw (warforged, IIRC), and the fact that PCs could play them basically made up my mind. I refuse to play (or even consider) "D&D: Full Metal Alchemist Edition". For whatever reason, it just pushes my "hate it" button.

As for the anal check...the first couple pages of the FATAL book say "this is supposed to be a complete simulationist game with magic added" (paraphrased). If the idea really is to be "completely simulationist", I can understand why the designers put it in - it's in keeping with their stated goal...unless we're to assume that PCs have no anus. And if that's the case, where would the paladins put the stick? :smallwink:

EDIT for clarification: I should point out that the idea of rape doesn't really "squick" me like it does a lot of people. I done a LOT of live theatre, and have had to do some of those onstage (Zipless, Man of la Mancha, etc) and some have been fairly graphic. Hell, the first rehearsal for the rape in Zipless is how I met my wife (the rape-ee). The very "idea" of it in a game just isn't an instant disqualification. I understand if it is for you - but please don't project your squicks onto others or make value judgements if they don't share your squicks.

Spiryt
2008-07-06, 02:27 AM
While I haven't read the rules (like the mjority of the posters flaming it), this sounds like a satire of the fantasy RPG in general. Instead of portraying medieval society in the way the average nerd views it, it portrays it as violent, crude, homophobic/sexist/racist as it really was, and how that society would be different with the inclusion of magic. Let's be honest, if D&D were trying to truly be like a realistic Middle Ages but with magic, it would probably turn out something like FATAL. I mean, "From Another Time, Another Land" seems like a pretty good title for this; an accurate RPG of what Medeival (another time) life would be like with a bit of high fantasy (another land) thrown in.


You haven't read the rules. So read this. (Spoilered part of the FATAL - read on your own responsibility.)
No, really. In an average community, an average of twenty rapes occur annually. In 80% of cases, rapes are committed by between two and fifteen characters.

They force the female's door at night, do not disguise themselves, and either rape the victim in her home and in the presence of terrorized witnesses, or drag the victim through the streets into one of their houses, where they have their pleasure all night long. In 80% of cases, the neighbors do not intervene. Almost all rapes involve extreme brutality, though they never attempt to wound or kill her.

The rapists come from all levels of society, but the majority are artisans and laborers. Less than 10% of rapes occur by thugs. In 50% of cases, human rapists are between 18 and 24 years old. The group is composed, on average, of 6 characters. Only 20% of the rapes are committed by 10 or more characters. Half the male youth participate at least once in gang rape. Sexual violence is an everyday dimension of community life. There tends to be less in smaller communities such as hamlets and more in larger communities such as citie
If identified, rapists are imprisoned for weeks, though no more than a month. If the victim withdraws the complaint, the rapist is freed immediately. Imprisonment for rape consists of flogging, unless the rapist is an outsider, in which case the rapist is banished. When freed from imprisonment, a rapist is not considered criminal nor considered to be bad.

The social reaction to rape is rarely favorable to the victim. The human victims of gang rape are between the ages of 15 and 33. Child rape is rare. The rape of a child under the age of 14 or 15 is considered a serious crime. The victim loses her good name in almost all cases, and encounters difficulty in regaining her place in society and family. If the victim of rape is single, then fewer males desire her as a wife. If she is married, her husband may abandon her. Priests comprise 20% of the clientele at private brothels and public baths. Some priests are even members of nightly gang rapes. The victim of gang rape almost never accuses them of committing sodomy.


If you really thing that Medieval society looked like that, then I don't want to play in any your medieval session.

But no society ever looked like that. Except of society from sick fantasies of system author, of course.

Swordguy
2008-07-06, 02:27 AM
And you defend FATAL's merits? Ugh. Discussion over.

Oh for the love-

I'm saying that it HAS SOME. That's all.

Swordguy
2008-07-06, 02:39 AM
If you really thing that Medieval society looked like that, then I don't want to play in any your medieval session.

But no society ever looked like that. Except of society from sick fantasies of system author, of course.

You probably shouldn't read any of the following then:
Chaucer, Geoffery, The Parson's Tale
Cappellanus, Angelus, Angelus Cappellanus on Love
Any of the works of Chretien de Troyes
Justinian, Codex Iustinianus
or...y'know, I'm not going to list any more period sources that all basically say that rape is entirely more common than you're implying. Granted, the percentages only come close to those numbers if you include the events during WARTIME, when ravishment was often expected as a way to dominate the conquered and break their will (and explicitly legal in the case of the conquered) - but to think that it wasn't a significant part of the world then is deluding yourself.



Half the male youth participate at least once in gang rape.
I remember that citation. It's from a discredited source. The current wisdom is about half that number at the high end (approx 20% +/-5% of male youth), rising somewhat in wartime. Rape and Ravishment in the Literature of Medieval England by Corinne Saunders deals with this specific theory.

...

If you don't WANT to simulate it, fine, more power to you. The game just gives you the option to do so. You don't have to use them. GURPS gives you the option to include superheroes in your game too. You don't have to use them. Same bloody thing.

Why is this so hard to get?

(Waits to see how long it'll be before somebody says, "OMG! You compared superheroes to rape!" and thus completely misses the point.)

Aquillion
2008-07-06, 04:19 AM
You probably shouldn't read any of the following then:
Chaucer, Geoffery, The Parson's Tale
Cappellanus, Angelus, Angelus Cappellanus on Love
Any of the works of Chretien de Troyes
Justinian, Codex Iustinianus
or...y'know, I'm not going to list any more period sources that all basically say that rape is entirely more common than you're implying. Granted, the percentages only come close to those numbers if you include the events during WARTIME, when ravishment was often expected as a way to dominate the conquered and break their will (and explicitly legal in the case of the conquered) - but to think that it wasn't a significant part of the world then is deluding yourself. You missed the best part:

(Spoilering the rest for the squeamish...)

Almost all rapes involve extreme brutality, though they never attempt to wound or kill her.
though they never attempt to wound or kill her.

though they never attempt to wound or kill her.

While it might not look like it, that is, in fact, the most damning part of the rules Spiryt posted. There is room to argue that the rest is abstractions, or horrible horrible misunderstandings, or reliance on bad sources or whatever -- but there are no two ways to read the words I bolded.

Those words prove FATAL's obsession with rapes is solely and exclusively a juvenile wank-fest fantasy. Period. Nothing else can explain why that line is there -- they looove jerking off to the statistics you mentioned, but as soon as they start getting murder in their rape they start getting soft, so they carefully cut it out for better wanking.

Go on, justify it, I dare you. Why are the words I bolded there, if not for better wanking? I can see no other explanation. It is flatly impossible to imagine that the authors seriously think that there were no rape-murders in the time period they're focusing on, so... why did they suddenly, drastically cut away from their supposedly brutal realism on that one point?

You are not going to convince me (or, I think, anyone here) that they suddenly became squeamish after all that detailed description of rape, so... Come on, tell me why they don't think rapists ever murder in their world.

In any case, for you to compare FATAL to any of the things you listed is flatly insulting. The problem with FATAL is not that it has rape in it; the problem is that it transparently includes rape for the reasons I outlined above. Nobody accused Chaucer of masturbating into The Parson's Tale. People have -- and I am -- levelling that accusation against the creators of FATAL.
And, separately (since I think that the above is the strongest point, and stands on its own):There are other bits of those rules that are pretty transparently set up for wanking, too.

"When freed from imprisonment, a rapist is not considered criminal nor considered to be bad."

No. Just no. I could respect a game that devoted a few lines or a paragraph to mentioning that sexual violence was more common in the time period it focuses on -- but "not considered a criminal nor considered to be bad" -- ever? Uh, yeah, no. Curiously, there's no mention of relatives seeking revenge, either, which was another common aspect of rape in pre-industrial societies. I suspect that this is because being forcibly castrated by their victim's brothers or uncles doesn't figure very highly in most of their fantasies, either.

Would you like to explain that one, too? Why the intense focus on there never being serious consequences for rape -- not ever? While it's true you could get away with rape in a lawless society like that, you could also suffer much, much more serious, brutal consequences than anything we do today.

Why'd they leave that part out?
Also, of course, a curious lack of information on STDs, and very little detail on diseases in general (they have mortality figures, but come on. Disease was a major, major part of Medieval life, one with far more impact than rape. Where's the description of rolling to see which of your body parts fall off when, or things like that?) Not enough detail on starvation, either. Where are the pages and pages of starvation rules, the impact disease and starvation can have on a community, things like that?

(Those rules could actually make for an interesting adventure, but apparently it's just not as interesting to the creators of FATAL as rape and anal circumference checks.)

Swordguy
2008-07-06, 05:07 AM
To be completely honest, I missed that. That does significantly color the rules toward your rationale in my mind. I can - weakly and partially - justify the idea:

Codex Iustinianus and several period law sources mention that the part of rape that was the most damaging was actually the wounding or abduction of the victim. If the victim wasn't abducted or injured, the penalties to the perpetrators, if any, were MUCH less severe, if penalties were applied at all. That is a rationale not to do so. (EDIT - these are largely secular law sources. Laws more influenced by religious dogma started in on the "purity" angle and increased the penalties simply for the act - though it remained common in warfare until...well, it's still pretty common if you look at the whole world and not just 1st World countries. The world isn't always a nice place.)

But the way they've worded that is pretty damming, I think. "Never"? You don't use that word when writing about anything even remotely connected to history. For reference though, I don't feel especially bad for missing half of one sentence in a 900-page document...but that IS a pretty damn bad sentence.

As for your second spoiler, why doesn't D&D mention that if you kill somebody, their relatives might track you down? Murder is just as bad, and oftentimes considered worse. I'd argue it doesn't HAVE to be said because it's implied in ANY RPG that if you do something bad to someone, their relatives might come after you if they figure out who did it. It's not something that needs to be pointed out.

Please understand: I'm mainly trying to defend the document as a thought exercise. If it helps you get it, I wouldn't play it again - if for no other reason than I don't like the game mechanics. Of course, at least I'm coming from an informed perspective on it - everyone else is going on conjecture. From above, this sums up my thoughts on FATAL:


Finally, let me make it clear: I object to being called a "fan" of this game. I respect the breadth of the rules (EDIT to clarify - "breadth" meaning the sheer number of situations that can be adjucated using the rules), and acknowledge that it is sort-of playable in practice - without indulging in juvenile and prurient interests. That is DISTINCTLY different from being a "fan".


Please take the above quote to heart. You will note I'm NOT saying they necessarily made a "good" game, or even an "accurate" one. They just made an expansive one. Further it is possible appreciate good results (even if unintended) in the worst of circumstances. That doesn't mean you agree with everything connected to said circumstances. To quote some overused phrases: "Even Mussolini made the trains run on time.", "Hitler fixed the roads", "Games Workshop makes very nice miniatures".

See? Some small good can come from even the worst places and people. To say there's nothing good about anything I can think of offhand is a straight-up fallacy.

To soothe your mind, here's what I think of of real-world rape:

Last March I shot and killed a serial rapist outside our apartment complex. He was the cousin of the local sheriff, and so was out on his own recognizance. The girl he was in the process of assaulting would have been his fourth victim.

Spiryt
2008-07-06, 05:25 AM
You probably shouldn't read any of the following then:
Chaucer, Geoffery, The Parson's Tale
Cappellanus, Angelus, Angelus Cappellanus on Love
Any of the works of Chretien de Troyes
Justinian, Codex Iustinianus
or...y'know, I'm not going to list any more period sources that all basically say that rape is entirely more common than you're implying. Granted, the percentages only come close to those numbers if you include the events during WARTIME, when ravishment was often expected as a way to dominate the conquered and break their will (and explicitly legal in the case of the conquered) - but to think that it wasn't a significant part of the world then is deluding yourself.


Apart from what Aquillion said, I really think that something is completely screwed in this descirtion, besides numbers.

Or are you trying to tell me that those "rape gangs" were roaming the cities completely unpunished? Beacuse if they do such bonanza in some rich merchant house, he of course wouldn't hire thugs to find and mutilate rapists, if they go so "undisguied"?

Or that they draged screaming women trough the streets and noone (in 80% of cases like this "statisitc" wamts) opposed? Not even law enforcers?

And about
When freed from imprisonment, a rapist is not considered criminal nor considered to be bad.

I honestly won't believe that people were shaking hands with them, when they were indentified. Those punishments also looks skewed too me. Medieval punishments connected with adultery were sewere. And author is trying to tell us that rape was prison for month. Buehehe. Public castrations was much more probable.


unless the rapist is an outsider, in which case the rapist is banished.

This is outright silly. Yes, in medieval community, were stranger would be generally suspicious, after such thing, he will be just banished. So in fact just released he is outsider so, whne he's banished it doesn't harm him anyhow. * Suuure.

Other silly statements if FATAL makes it clear : Author is creating some rape-paradise settings, bending the fact and numbers, and making creepy statements they could not know if they are true (as Aquillion noticed)

I'm not trying to say that Medieval communities weren't sometimes horribly cruel and unjust from our point of view, beacuse mentality of people was completely different.

But FATAL author obvioulsy don't know much about it. They only have that fact straight that suits them. And even those are exaggerated.

* This is in fact the most scary part of this "creation". Like rape- tourism. You rape, they just kick you out, go somewhere else.

EDIT: The saddest part is that in every thread about FATAL people eventually talk about rape. Dang.

SolkaTruesilver
2008-07-06, 06:29 AM
EDIT for clarification: I should point out that the idea of rape doesn't really "squick" me like it does a lot of people. I done a LOT of live theatre, and have had to do some of those onstage (Zipless, Man of la Mancha, etc) and some have been fairly graphic. Hell, the first rehearsal for the rape in Zipless is how I met my wife (the rape-ee). The very "idea" of it in a game just isn't an instant disqualification. I understand if it is for you - but please don't project your squicks onto others or make value judgements if they don't share your squicks.

All right, I have to ask. If you ever have children, what will you explain to them when they'll ask how mommy and daddy met?

Eldritch_Ent
2008-07-06, 06:54 AM
All right, I have to ask. If you ever have children, what will you explain to them when they'll ask how mommy and daddy met?

You see kids, If a man loves a woman very, very much, and she doesn't love him back...

(Sorry, don't kill me Swordguy!)

XenoGeno
2008-07-06, 10:48 AM
After reading that section of the rules, I still can easily interpret that as satirical. It makes fun of how little attention is paid to the idea of rape by going straight off the deep end, exaggerating it, revelling in the absurdity. So far, I have seen one instance where rape was mentioned in something by WotC (albeit as "involuntary breeding" and not rape), and that was in the SRD (Giant bloodlines). I haven't read the BoVD, but does that contain anything about rape? And do campaign settings mention rape, and the social stigma being a rapist would bring as per RAW? They might, but I doubt it. So technically, in D&D, being a rapist is no worse than being a petty thief, and that doesn't necessarily bring any negative social stigmas, not with out some ruling by a DM (however, my friends and I are cheap, broke, and stingy, so we don't buy campaign setttings. I'd love to be proven wrong about this, honestly).

No, I don't believe medieval society was quite that disgusting, but it really was nowhere near as romantic as people tend to imagine it as.

Kurald Galain
2008-07-06, 11:04 AM
No, I don't believe medieval society was quite that disgusting, but it really was nowhere near as romantic as people tend to imagine it as.

Whuh? Please do your research before comparing rape to petty thievery. "From the classical antiquity of Greece and Rome into the Colonial period, rape along with arson, treason and murder was a capital offense. Those committing rape were subject to a wide range of capital punishments that were seemingly brutal, frequently bloody, and at times spectacular. In the 12th century, kinsmen of the victim were given the option of executing the punishment themselves. In England in the early fourteenth century, a victim of rape might be expected to gouge out the eyes and/or sever the offender's testicles herself."

Do you really need a sourcebook to point out that yes, rapists are a lot worse than common thieves?

Chronos
2008-07-06, 01:18 PM
I simply acknowledge that it does, in fact, have a fairly comprehensive (if poorly-written) set of rules (which DO include farming, btw) that covers a wider range of potential situations than many other games.OK, so the rules do include farming. I'll concede that far, then. But do the rules go into as much detail for farming as they do for rape? Because really, for a game that goes into so much detail that it has stats for the size of one's anus, I would expect that there would also be stats for... hm... I'm having a hard time even thinking of what the equivalent level of detail would be for farming.

And no, D&D doesn't say that the victim's family is likely to go after a rapist with severe vigilante justice. But the key point is that D&D also doesn't say that the victim's family won't go after the rapist. They don't need to say anything on the subject, because any rational human being will assume that, unless there's some strong reason they wouldn't, that of course the victim's family will go after the rapist. FATAL, however, explicitly does say that they won't.

Ecalsneerg
2008-07-06, 01:34 PM
OK, so the rules do include farming. I'll concede that far, then. But do the rules go into as much detail for farming as they do for rape? Because really, for a game that goes into so much detail that it has stats for the size of one's anus, I would expect that there would also be stats for... hm... I'm having a hard time even thinking of what the equivalent level of detail would be for farming.
The length of one's rake? :smallbiggrin:

Chronicled
2008-07-06, 01:35 PM
To soothe your mind, here's what I think of of real-world rape:

Last March I shot and killed a serial rapist outside our apartment complex. He was the cousin of the local sheriff, and so was out on his own recognizance. The girl he was in the process of assaulting would have been his fourth victim.

Since nobody else has commented, I will: Well done. I'm glad that you helped make the world a safer place.

XenoGeno
2008-07-06, 01:39 PM
If you had actually read my post, you'd have noticed that what I said was "as per RAW". Of course rape has historically been worse than petty theft; I'm just saying there are no rules about it in D&D (although any DM who allows their players to rape other characters without a really, really good reasonis an idiot). Which is why one can interpret FATAL's "rapists aren't viewed poorly" thing as satire; it's outwardly saying what D&D technically, if accidentally, implies. I'm not saying it's good satire, or even intentional satire, just that it could be viewed as such.

BurnHavoc
2008-07-06, 01:54 PM
Well I got my hands on FATAL. yeah 900 pages, but only maybe a dozen total are overly sexual or contain talk about sexual brutality. Theres alot of POINTLESS **** in there though. Theres realism that immerses people into the mindset of the game, but this is so TEDIOUS that you'll want to ignore 80% of the written rules just to be able to play the game without losing track of whats going on or what your rolling for.

I would never play it, that it has stats for vaginal and anal circumfrence and depth potential... dosn't help it's cause at all.

Jade_Tarem
2008-07-06, 02:20 PM
If you had actually read my post, you'd have noticed that what I said was "as per RAW". Of course rape has historically been worse than petty theft; I'm just saying there are no rules about it in D&D (although any DM who allows their players to rape other characters without a really, really good reasonis an idiot). Which is why one can interpret FATAL's "rapists aren't viewed poorly" thing as satire; it's outwardly saying what D&D technically, if accidentally, implies. I'm not saying it's good satire, or even intentional satire, just that it could be viewed as such.

I think you're missing the point. On the one hand, you have DnD, which pretty much ignores rape for the most part, expecting you to fill in the rules and whatnot if you like that sort of thing (I think most DMs, if pressed, would just say that rape does occur sometimes in their campaign setting and that rapists who get caught are dealt with harshly - they would not go into detail about how 99% of the male youth are accomplished sex offenders who always get away with a slap on the wrist.) FATAL, on the other hand, goes out of its way to provide a number of rules for rape that, as Aquillion pointed out, are more suitable for facilitating perverted fantasy rape (It's not rape, it's surprise sex you didn't know you wanted! And everyone is totally ok with it, except the victim - but she doesn't matter, she's just there to receive your holy man-seed.") than describing what rape is actually like, or would be like - case in point that rape in FATAL has virtually no negative consequences - ever - unless you're the victim, wherin you drop in social status, making you more likely to be raped in the future. It is, as Aquillion said, a "wankfest." Pointed out by this same poster, the fact that the game ignores or barely covers such things as plague and starvation (or STDs) mean that there was a definite concentration on statting out rape, and doing so in such a way that it was made easy and fun!

Your claim is that DnD not providing rules and stats for rape is actually condoning or implying it is silly. This is a game where your average housecat can kill a grown man in a few seconds, and where a little diamond dust can raise that same man from the dead, so he can go out into the woods and kill things with a sword, which makes him inherently better at casting spells, so that he can go back and take his revenge on the cat - the game doesn't even try to be realistic; it's a fantasy world where people don't go around getting raped all the time if the DM says they don't. Maybe FATAL was supposed to be a satire, but there comes a point at which a work of... something... was written so poorly that it fails to satirize anything. FATAL is past that point.

Artanis
2008-07-06, 02:23 PM
This is a game where your average housecat can kill a grown man in a few seconds, and where a little diamond dust can raise that same man from the dead, so he can go out into the woods and kill things with a sword, which makes him inherently better at casting spells, so that he can go back and take his revenge on the cat
This would make for the most awesome short story (or even novel) ever :smallcool:.

Chronicled
2008-07-06, 02:33 PM
This would make for the most awesome short story (or even novel) ever :smallcool:.

Yes. Yes it would. :smalltongue:

Freelance Henchman
2008-07-06, 02:34 PM
This would make for the most awesome short story (or even novel) ever :smallcool:.

I hope the guy who owns this (http://www.giantitp.com/) website makes it, in comic form.

Swordguy
2008-07-06, 02:37 PM
I hope the guy who owns this (http://www.giantitp.com/) website makes it, in comic form.

FATAL aside, I think this is something we can all agree on.

Ecalsneerg
2008-07-06, 02:38 PM
This would make for the most awesome short story (or even novel) ever :smallcool:.

I'm making a film on it :P

BRC
2008-07-06, 02:41 PM
Yes. Yes it would. :smalltongue:

John Q Commoner Versus Fruffles the Houscat, Round II.

Page 254
With a mighty grunt John kicked down the door. In his hands he held the axe of the orcish king, the very king he had bested in a ritual blood duel according to orkish custom. He brushed the door dust off the armor that had been forged for him by Arshal, the celestial smith who armed the angelic legions. John scanned the room until his eyes locked upon a small, fuzzy shape curled up on a cushion.
John pointed the axe at the shape, feeding his rage and thirst for vengence into it, runes glowed and the axe burst into flames.
"Remember me" John growled "I'm back. You killed me before, but this time, i'm ready for you."
Mister Fruffles looked up at the towering figure of the former peasant and spoke.
"Mrow?"

Swordguy
2008-07-06, 03:05 PM
John Q Commoner Versus Fruffles the Houscat, Round II.

Page 254
With a mighty grunt John kicked down the door. In his hands he held the axe of the orcish king, the very king he had bested in a ritual blood duel according to orkish custom. He brushed the door dust off the armor that had been forged for him by Arshal, the celestial smith who armed the angelic legions. John scanned the room until his eyes locked upon a small, fuzzy shape curled up on a cushion.
John pointed the axe at the shape, feeding his rage and thirst for vengence into it, runes glowed and the axe burst into flames.
"Remember me" John growled "I'm back. You killed me before, but this time, i'm ready for you."
Mister Fruffles looked up at the towering figure of the former peasant and spoke.
"Mrow?"

And we've come back to the Paragon Kitten of Legend (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3242735#post3242735).

Mister Fruffles cocked his head slightly and said again, "Mrow?" (Trans. 'You didn't think it'd be that easy, did you?')

John hefted his axe and sighed heavily. "Y'know, for a moment there, I kinda did."

BRC
2008-07-06, 03:21 PM
And we've come back to the Paragon Kitten of Legend (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3242735#post3242735).

Mister Fruffles cocked his head slightly and said again, "Mrow?" (Trans. 'You didn't think it'd be that easy, did you?')

John hefted his axe and sighed heavily. "Y'know, for a moment there, I kinda did."

I dunno, the paragon Kitten only has 31 HP, if John could somehow overcome that Armor class of 60, and assuming that the axe in question is epic (so as to overcome the damage reduction) he might actually have a chance.

Jade_Tarem
2008-07-06, 03:25 PM
The kitten assumed a fighting posture, ready to spring, to strike, to rend our hero in two once more. "MrowRAWR!" (Alright then, let's get dangerous!)

EvilElitest
2008-07-06, 03:27 PM
FATAL isn't a video game. It just taints the medium by vague association.

Hmmm, good point, maybe you could say it is video pain




I think EE has been so used to using Videogame as an insult to be lobbed at pen and paper games, that he mistyped and actually meant to insert some other word there.
When i'm comparing something to a table top RPG, which shouldn't have the limitations to a video game, yes it is insulting, but when i'm talking about video games, different stories. Pathetic

from
EE

edit
Book of Vile Darkness, book of exalted deeds, rape is covered

XenoGeno
2008-07-06, 03:46 PM
Your claim is that DnD not providing rules and stats for rape is actually condoning or implying it is silly. This is a game where your average housecat can kill a grown man in a few seconds, and where a little diamond dust can raise that same man from the dead, so he can go out into the woods and kill things with a sword, which makes him inherently better at casting spells, so that he can go back and take his revenge on the cat - the game doesn't even try to be realistic; it's a fantasy world where people don't go around getting raped all the time if the DM says they don't. Maybe FATAL was supposed to be a satire, but there comes a point at which a work of... something... was written so poorly that it fails to satirize anything. FATAL is past that point.

Maybe you're right about me missing the point, but you're missing my point, because that's not at all what I claimed (although I must agree with everyone that that would be a cool story)! I was not saying that the lack of rules condoned or implied rape; I was saying that FATAL's rapists getting off scott-free could be interpreted as making fun of how D&D has rules for many things, but never once gives rules about rape, and their modules and campaigns which list so many things about cities never once mention how bad rape is. Hell, let's just leave rape out of this. A petty thief is equivalent to a murderer, is equivalent to a burglar, is equivalent to a conman, etc. They don't differentiate any crimes, leaving it up to the DM. Obviously any sane DM is going to have government differentiate (unless it's a draconian society where everyone is put to death or the like), but as per RAW, there's no difference. Hell, by RAW there's no difference between any sort of criminal and a commoner. And honestly, pointing out how stupid RAW can be is where a lot of humor in making fun of stuff like D&D comes from; look at OotS, a good bit of the humor comes from making fun of RAW (and before anyone flames me for comparing FATAL to OotS, I don't think FATAL comes anywhere close to the satire in the comic).

Besides, the guy who actually read all the rules said the sex stuff only covered about 12 pages, which is one and a third percent. As horrible as the rape stuff is, it's not the focus of the game, not by a long shot.


Sorta edit: After previewing my post, I noticed EE says that BoED and BoVD do cover rape. While I get the BoVD, is it really covered in the other book? It doesn't seem like it would fit with the whole good theme...

mikeejimbo
2008-07-06, 03:58 PM
Sorta edit: After previewing my post, I noticed EE says that BoED and BoVD do cover rape. While I get the BoVD, is it really covered in the other book? It doesn't seem like it would fit with the whole good theme...

My group has both of those books, and I don't recall anything about rape in BoED.

Sure you aren't thinking of BoEF? :smallwink:

Starsinger
2008-07-06, 05:39 PM
Pathetic

So, we're resorting to name calling already?

Jade_Tarem
2008-07-06, 05:50 PM
Maybe you're right about me missing the point, but you're missing my point, because that's not at all what I claimed (although I must agree with everyone that that would be a cool story)! I was not saying that the lack of rules condoned or implied rape; I was saying that FATAL's rapists getting off scott-free could be interpreted as making fun of how D&D has rules for many things, but never once gives rules about rape, and their modules and campaigns which list so many things about cities never once mention how bad rape is. Hell, let's just leave rape out of this. A petty thief is equivalent to a murderer, is equivalent to a burglar, is equivalent to a conman, etc. They don't differentiate any crimes, leaving it up to the DM. Obviously any sane DM is going to have government differentiate (unless it's a draconian society where everyone is put to death or the like), but as per RAW, there's no difference. Hell, by RAW there's no difference between any sort of criminal and a commoner. And honestly, pointing out how stupid RAW can be is where a lot of humor in making fun of stuff like D&D comes from; look at OotS, a good bit of the humor comes from making fun of RAW (and before anyone flames me for comparing FATAL to OotS, I don't think FATAL comes anywhere close to the satire in the comic).

Besides, the guy who actually read all the rules said the sex stuff only covered about 12 pages, which is one and a third percent. As horrible as the rape stuff is, it's not the focus of the game, not by a long shot.


Sorta edit: After previewing my post, I noticed EE says that BoED and BoVD do cover rape. While I get the BoVD, is it really covered in the other book? It doesn't seem like it would fit with the whole good theme...

Mmmm.... I'll go ahead and grant that it "might be seen as satire" because I have absolutely no way to prove otherwise. I still think it's unlikely.

And sex might not be the main focus of FATAL, but don't think anyone can argue that so much attention was given to rape because "it was an important aspect of medieval life" when rape is given more spotlight in the rules than plague and starvation combined, either one of which was much more likely to affect you than rape. Especially since it's so badly handled.

XenoGeno
2008-07-06, 07:44 PM
That's fair, Jade. Like I said in my first post, I'm not sure it was intended to be viewed as satire; I just see it as taking refuge in audacity. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RefugeInAudacity)

Also, the BoEF probably had rules for rape. To be honest, I've thought about using a friend's copy (which he got out of morbid interest, or so he says :smalltongue:) for the STD and pregnancy rules, as a sort of threat to keep my players in line. Never got around to doing it, though.

The Necroswanso
2008-07-06, 07:58 PM
To my reccolection the BoEF lists rape as wrong, and as such to avoid suspicion of advocation, lists no mechanics for rape, but instead goes to define what actions are considered rape. Such as getting it on with undead so as to gain the 'lichloved' feat. Mindless undead cannot consent, however they are mindless creatures and closer to animals, thus it is instead beastiality..... Creepy stuff, I know.

Tengu
2008-07-06, 07:59 PM
Y'all know, the surprising thing about BoEF is that it's actually written tastefully. Unless you're a holy nun who blushes furiously upon every mention of sex, there is nothing there that could really shock you. Well, apart from one thing - most of the artwork is awful.


Since nobody else has commented, I will: Well done. I'm glad that you helped make the world a safer place.

Woah, how come I missed that part of Swordguy's post? It indeed is something that deserves respect. Death is the only thing good for some people.

EndlessWrath
2008-07-06, 08:35 PM
Never played FATAL. and really don't care.

The system is besides the point. It's the DMs responsibility of letting players in or kicking players out of his/her game. It is the PLAYER's responsibility to tell the DM to do so. if the group doesn't want him in then he shouldn't be in. Don't be subtle, don't drop hints. Just go up and tell the guy "hey. We got a problem about...yadda yadda yadda... either clean up your act or leave."

I know it seems harsh, but it needs to be done. It's helping a lot of people. If it makes the kicker feel better...bring supporters to your cause. (visible)

Waspinator
2008-07-09, 10:32 PM
If the guy's that big a jerk, you really should put your foot down. You don't have to let him interact with you unless you let him.

On the subject of FATAL, from what I've read of it's rules, it just seems plain pointless. Yes, it has extremely detailed rules for many things included in the name of realism (including many distasteful things, though that's besides the point). And there is a place and a market for ultra-realistic and detailed games. However, most of the rules in FATAL are completely unrealistic to the extent that the game loses the niche it was aiming for.

brotherscrim
2008-07-10, 02:09 PM
If the players never use those rules, and the GM never uses those rules, then does it really matter they're there? Does their presence suddenly invalidate the rest of the system? That sort of short-sighted belief is one step of sheer idiocy.


They have a magic item that turns you into a black person, which in their rule system is by nature a simpleton, who smells. And that's the part I can remember off the top of my head.


Allow me to go ahead and Godwin this thread for my first post: The Nazis sure did make some fancy rockets while they were commiting genocide. That's super and all, but I dare say it wasn't worth the price, am I right?!

FATAL most certainly IS invalidated by its persistent and ubiquitous examples of the very worst of human nature, codified for your gaming "enjoyment."

This isn't a laudable effort that carries with it some unfortunate baggage; It's an heroically-poor attempt to disguise somebody's wretched KINK as a set of arbitrary, pointless, and disasterously bad rules. Trying to excuse it for the sake of tolerance is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Stupendous_Man
2008-07-20, 01:49 PM
If the players never use those rules, and the GM never uses those rules, then does it really matter they're there? Does their presence suddenly invalidate the rest of the system? That sort of short-sighted belief is one step of sheer idiocy.
the rules are there to b used, u kno.

Eldritch_Ent
2008-07-20, 03:30 PM
the rules are there to b used, u kno.

Full Words are there to be used, you know.

In addition, a rule doesn't have to be followed simply because it's there- good rules should facilitate play, bad rules make play harder. Dropping or adding rules as needed is one of the fun parts of DnD.

Stupendous_Man
2008-07-20, 07:06 PM
if you have to drop a large potion of hte rules to even have a decent (like non racist sexist whatever) game, doesn't that say something about the system?

Moff Chumley
2008-07-20, 08:33 PM
Yes.

Anyway, Sturgeon's Law (Am I using the right law? :smallconfused:) applies to RPGs as well, I suppose.

EvilDM, we're going to need more details about your problem...