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Myshlaevsky
2008-07-05, 06:31 AM
Really just wondering if it's viable to go entirely CHA with a paladin. Just want to check if this is going to be severely inferior in comparison to other builds.


Considering a Hobgoblin with the following stat array:

Str: 10
Con: 15
Dex: 10
Int: 9
Wis: 16
Cha: 18

And picking Bolstering Strike, Enfeebling Strike, Fearsome Smite and Radiant Delirium for the powers. Any recommendations on improving this build are welcome.

Fluff-wise, it's going to be a paladin of Kord born with a weakening genetic disease.

Tengu
2008-07-05, 06:37 AM
You can completely dump strength (well, have enough to carry your gear without difficulties) and concentrate on charisma as a defensive paladin. And defensive paladins are better protectors, so that's the default way to go. You won't get access to the weapon-specific feats, though.

Charity
2008-07-05, 08:01 AM
Really just wondering if it's viable to go entirely CHA with a paladin. Just want to check if this is going to be severely inferior in comparison to other builds.


Considering a Hobgoblin with the following stat array:

Str: 10
Con: 15
Dex: 10
Int: 9
Wis: 16
Cha: 18

And picking Bolstering Strike, Enfeebling Strike, Fearsome Smite and Radiant Delirium for the powers. Any recommendations on improving this build are welcome.

Fluff-wise, it's going to be a paladin of Kord born with a weakening genetic disease.

That is exactly what I would chose with those stats.
My only concern is that you are going to be unable to chose any of the weapon feats of paragon and beyond... in fact heavy blade opportunity would be excellent (use cha based at wills for opp attacks) for you but you will never qualify.
check out the feats you will struggle to have

Blade Opportunist Str 13, Dex 13
Linguist Int 13 (very handy for intimidate skill which you will be good at)
Power Attack Str 15
Powerful Charge Str 13
Quick Draw Dex 13
Deadly Axe Str 17, Con 13
Hammer Rhythm Str 15, Con 17
Heavy Blade Opportunity Str 15, Dex 15
Polearm Gamble Str 15, Wis 15
Scimitar Dance Str 15, Dex 17
Shield Specialization Dex 15,
All of the weapon mastery feats in the epic tier

In fact in epic you will only ever qualify for 4 feats
Epic Resurgence
Font of Radiance
Irresistible Flame
Triumphant Attack

I am not knocking your build it is fine, but you are essentially throwing away most of your epic and paragon feat choices, as long as you are aware of that and you won't miss them then that is fine.

Myshlaevsky
2008-07-05, 08:32 PM
That is exactly what I would chose with those stats.
My only concern is that you are going to be unable to chose any of the weapon feats of paragon and beyond... in fact heavy blade opportunity would be excellent (use cha based at wills for opp attacks) for you but you will never qualify.
check out the feats you will struggle to have

Blade Opportunist Str 13, Dex 13
Linguist Int 13 (very handy for intimidate skill which you will be good at)
Power Attack Str 15
Powerful Charge Str 13
Quick Draw Dex 13
Deadly Axe Str 17, Con 13
Hammer Rhythm Str 15, Con 17
Heavy Blade Opportunity Str 15, Dex 15
Polearm Gamble Str 15, Wis 15
Scimitar Dance Str 15, Dex 17
Shield Specialization Dex 15,
All of the weapon mastery feats in the epic tier

In fact in epic you will only ever qualify for 4 feats
Epic Resurgence
Font of Radiance
Irresistible Flame
Triumphant Attack

I am not knocking your build it is fine, but you are essentially throwing away most of your epic and paragon feat choices, as long as you are aware of that and you won't miss them then that is fine.

Hmmm, I hadn't really considered this. As far as I can see, I wouldn't be able to take many of these anyway - Hammers, Axes or Polearms are probably my best bet - but I guess I'll have to rethink the character. I am taking a big hit in this respect.

Is there a particular stat array you would recommend for a +2 CON, +2 CHA Paladin? They seem to be one of the classes wherein it's harder to focus on both your primary abilities if you don't have direct boosts.

EDIT: I have one more question: Do the temporary hit points from Bolstering Strike stack? I was told that they did not, but I know that the Infernal Warlock's temporary hit points do.

JaxGaret
2008-07-05, 09:52 PM
EDIT: I have one more question: Do the temporary hit points from Bolstering Strike stack? I was told that they did not, but I know that the Infernal Warlock's temporary hit points do.

Temporary HP never stack.

IIRC the Infernalock's curse temp HP don't stack either - what specifically are you referring to?

Charity
2008-07-05, 10:16 PM
The stats you have are fine as long as you don't care about qualifying for the feats.
what you have is
Str: 10
Con: 15
Dex: 10
Int: 9
Wis: 16
Cha: 18

you could go to
Str: 14
Con: 15
Dex: 10
Int: 8
Wis: 14
Cha: 18
which would make hammer or axe feats more accessible
Dex is harder to get but you could have
Str: 14
Con: 12
Dex: 13
Int: 8
Wis: 14
Cha: 18
one stat bump to dex would qualify you for heavy blade opp in the Paragon tier. 15's in physical stats by the paragon tier seem like worthwile targets. (sheild spec is nice too btw)

I figure Con is not a such a big deal as it used to be, it can be made up for to a large extent by the toughness feat.

Charitys top tip is to always take toughness at 1st level, then retrain it into what you really want at 2nd.

Myshlaevsky
2008-07-05, 10:20 PM
Temporary HP never stack.

IIRC the Infernalock's curse temp HP don't stack either - what specifically are you referring to?

Could you clarify this? It's not that I don't believe you but I thought according to the DMG it was only temporary HP from different sources that didn't stack.

EDIT: Thanks for all that, Charity. I'll have a think about where I want the paladin to go and use whichever one of those stat arrays I think fits best.

EDIT2: Jaxgaret, reading the star pact boon it specifically says that they do stack, which makes me believe you are right and the infernal lock's HP don't. The different sources thing confused me, but I suppose each enemy is a different source. The person who told me they did claimed to have confirmation that it was the same source for each temporary HP boost.

JaxGaret
2008-07-05, 10:37 PM
Could you clarify this? It's not that I don't believe you but I thought according to the DMG it was only temporary HP from different sources that didn't stack.

There is no mention of temporary HP in the DMG.

Temporary HP can be found, however, on page 293-294 of the PHB:


Donít Add Together: If you get temporary hit points from different sources, use the higher value as your temporary hit point total instead of adding the values together.


EDIT2: Jaxgaret, reading the star pact boon it specifically says that they do stack, which makes me believe you are right and the infernal lock's HP don't. The different sources thing confused me, but I suppose each enemy is a different source. The person who told me they did claimed to have confirmation that it was the same source for each temporary HP boost.

I suggest that you check the source before assuming that what other people tell you is correct.

Myshlaevsky
2008-07-05, 10:41 PM
There is no mention of temporary HP in the DMG.

Meant the PHB, apologies.


Temporary HP can be found, however, on page 293-294 of the PHB:

Uh-huh, I see that now. I still don't see the need for "from different sources" if they never stack. And they don't. Just found a WotC reply saying that.


I suggest you check the source before assuming that what other people tell you is correct.

They had a WotC reply which confirmed the power was the source. Someone else confirmed this reply. I've just looked it up and found it's pretty ambiguously worded.

JaxGaret
2008-07-05, 10:46 PM
Meant the PHB, apologies.

No problem.


Uh-huh, I see that now. I still don't see the need for "from different sources" if they never stack. And they don't. Just found a WotC reply saying that.

They had a WotC reply which confirmed the power was the source. Someone else confirmed this reply. I've just looked it up and found it's pretty ambiguously worded.

Could you post the reply?

Myshlaevsky
2008-07-05, 10:54 PM
Sure. Give me a moment to look for it again. From what I remember from glancing over it, it doesn't really raise the question of temporary HP, just the source. The other explicitly mentions temporary HP, ad gets a definitive reply.

I'll edit them both in here when I'm done.

Hahaha - well, it turns out the person who was justifying the first reply to allow stacking had clipped it. It specifically states that the questioner knows they don't - but their version did not. Dodginess!

Here are both, in any case:

Source Question.



Hello,

My question is over the 'source' of a bonus. I know like bonuses don't stack, so the same bonus from every source will never stack, however, I was wondering what a source is considered. For example, a warlock uses dark one's blessing to get some temp HP. Is the source of the bonus the defeated enemy, or is the ability dark one's blessing. Another example would be the cleric ability haunting strike. It gives a +2 power bonus on the next attack you make at the same creature, would the source of the bonus be the power haunting strike, or the hit on the enemy?

Thanks!


Originally Posted by custserv
Eric,

Dark One's Blessing and Haunting Strike are the sources of these bonuses, they are where the bonuses come from.

Good Gaming!


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HP Question:




Question:
I'm confused by the wording on p.294 regarding the stacking of temporary hit points. It says that temporary hit points "from different sources" do not stack. What does that phrase "from different sources" mean?

Or to put it another way, do temporary hit points ever stack? If so, can you provide a specific example of when they do stack?

Answer:
Temporary hitpoints don't stack, ever.

Evan T.
Customer Service Representative
Wizards of the Coast



I'd just like to thank for your help in sorting this out for me, as well. A lot of replies over a pretty simple question really. :smalltongue: Apologies for taking up your time.

Townopolis
2008-07-06, 02:38 AM
Remember, before you hit paragon tier, you get two (+1 to 2) stat bumps and one (+1 to all).

You could start with
Str: 11
Con: 14
Dex: 12
Int: 8
Wis: 16
Cha: 18

and spend both your bumps in heroic on CHA/STR and you will qualify for the very nice Heavy Blade Opportunity by level 11.

Myshlaevsky
2008-07-06, 04:28 AM
I think it'd have to be 13 Con, rather than 14 (1+2+2=5 +18=23, so 1 point over) but that's a really interesting stat array, and, I think, the one I will use. Thanks very much (to everyone).

Tengu
2008-07-06, 07:22 AM
and spend both your bumps in heroic on CHA/STR and you will qualify for the very nice Heavy Blade Opportunity by level 11.

It also requires 15 dex.

wodan46
2008-07-06, 07:33 AM
Your character needs Str to wear heavy armor, and lacks the Dex/Int to get by without it. Lower some stats to get Str high enough for at least decent armor.

Tengu
2008-07-06, 07:36 AM
Eh? You don't need high strength to use heavy armor, if you're already proficient in it by class.

Saph
2008-07-06, 08:00 AM
There is one major problem in dumping Str as a melee character; your basic attack is terrible, and AoO's are done with your basic attack. So enemies can move through your threatened area with impunity.

You can do Cha-only as a paladin, but as others have pointed out, it restricts your options.

- Saph

JaxGaret
2008-07-06, 11:12 AM
Sure. Give me a moment to look for it again. From what I remember from glancing over it, it doesn't really raise the question of temporary HP, just the source. The other explicitly mentions temporary HP, ad gets a definitive reply.

I'll edit them both in here when I'm done.

Thanks for taking the time to post them, Sharikov.


Hahaha - well, it turns out the person who was justifying the first reply to allow stacking had clipped it. It specifically states that the questioner knows they don't - but their version did not. Dodginess!

Indeed.


Here are both, in any case:

Source Question.



HP Question:



I'd just like to thank for your help in sorting this out for me, as well. A lot of replies over a pretty simple question really. :smalltongue: Apologies for taking up your time.

You're welcome! :smallsmile: Thanks for backing up my assertion that temp HP never stack.

TheOOB
2008-07-06, 12:27 PM
The build options for the paladin pretty much have stat allocation covered. For protecting paladins you want CHA as your higest, then STR, then WIS. While Charisma will be used for a majority of your attacks, you'll still make basic melee attacks sometimes (charging, opportunity attacks, warlord abilities ect.) and it doesn't hurt to be able to grab a few strength based abilities here and there. Wisdom is useful, but having a particularly high number doesn't give you much of a bonus over having just a reasonably high one.

Likewise avenging paladins go strength first, charisma second(usually, many good techniques, including most of your ranged and protection abilities are CHA based), and Wisdom third.

Tengu
2008-07-06, 12:31 PM
Just like in WoW, where dps paladins base on strength and attack power, and tanking paladins - spell damage!

Drekkan
2008-07-06, 06:58 PM
Another paladin question - this one about the Divine Challenge feature. If I have monster X challenged, and one of my comrades provokes an AoO from that monster which takes it - does it still take the to hit penalty and the radiant damage? I mean it's still technically an "attack" and it still doesn't include me as a target.

Yakk
2008-07-06, 08:24 PM
Yes, I believe so.

Both defenders have the ability to make it really annoying for a monster to attack anyone else but them, above and beyond the standard positioning tactics.

Nasty, eh?

TheOOB
2008-07-06, 10:21 PM
Another paladin question - this one about the Divine Challenge feature. If I have monster X challenged, and one of my comrades provokes an AoO from that monster which takes it - does it still take the to hit penalty and the radiant damage? I mean it's still technically an "attack" and it still doesn't include me as a target.

An opportunity attack is still an attack. Just remember that the monster knows how the challenge will affect them so they might not take the attack even if the opportunity exists. Also, if they have allready been hit by the damage from the effect since your last turn, they won't take it again from the opportunity attack.

Townopolis
2008-07-06, 11:01 PM
Hmm, indeed. As pointed out, my previous array was operating from the false idea that Heavy Blade Opportunity required a STR and DEX of only 13. As it actually works, this:

STR 13
CON 12
DEX 13
INT 8
WIS 14
CHA 16
(before racial adjustments)

would be my best bet for getting the feat at level 11.

Boost CHA/STR at level 4, then CHA/DEX at level 8. At level 11, they will both raise to the requesite 15. You have to sacrifice extra Wisdom for it, but having too many LoH uses just encourages your party to be sloppy with their HP... or somethng like that.:smalltongue:

On the plus side, now that you have Heavy Blade Opportunity, you can spend the rest of your career buffing CHA, CON, and WIS to your heart's content, as your opportunity attacks now rely on CHA, and if you choose to use a shield, you don't have to worry as much about your reflex.