I don't even want to read the rest of Martin's books.

[The J Pizzel]

See this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62027&highlight=george+martin) for how it all began.

I hate him. He's such a god**mn good author that I hate him. And he kills everyone. He kills them when you least expect it. I'm in the middle of book 3 and just as Robb and Cat are going to marry 'ole Edmund away, they're making plans to go home. Arya's almost back with her mom, a smidgeon of good is about to come upon the poor northern family...they get betrayed. And they die. Nope, no captives. They die. No terms, hostages, treaties, negotians, warnings. They just die. Cat wathes her last son get stabbed in the fu**ing heart, then goes mad and claws her face to hell. Then someone slits her throat. They frappin die. Ned was a surprise. The " 'Ole Bear" Mormont getting betrayed by the watch at crasters and dying was a bit of a surprise. Renly and all the others we're surprises. But I didn't see this crap coming.
I'll admit, both of the above characters we're playing on my nerves. Starting to make more mistakes than usual. Being a little too stuborn and honorable like Ned. I kinda foresaw one of them going, but not both. And sure's hell not like that.

In the other thread people told me to just hang in there. Well, I am. But I'm not enjoying it /sarcasm.

Seriously though...could this be a better damn series? I don't even know who my favorite characters are anymore. I obviously like Dany (who doens't) and Jon (same), but I'm starting to like Jaime...am I a bad person?

jP

[SmartAlec]

Keep reading, is my advice. Some of the chapters near the end of book 3 are actually genuinely uplifting and surprising, and without spoiling too much I hope, Jaime goes from strength to strength as a character in book 4 and the story of the Stark family isn't done quite yet.

Aside from the characters you mention, Davos Seaworth is a personal favourite. I sort of see him as the heir to the moral point-of-view of the book, after Ned died.

[CurlyKitGirl]

I'll admit, both of the above characters we're playing on my nerves. Starting to make more mistakes than usual. Being a little too stuborn and honorable like Ned. I kinda foresaw one of them going, but not both. And sure's hell not like that.

In the other thread people told me to just hang in there. Well, I am. But I'm not enjoying it /sarcasm.

Seriously though...could this be a better damn series? I don't even know who my favorite characters are anymore. I obviously like Dany (who doens't) and Jon (same), but I'm starting to like Jaime...am I a bad person?

jP

Hmm, how can I put this?
You're meant to start liking Jaime more as a character. He's got his own viewpoint now so you see his motives and he becomes more real. It's easy to hate someone without knowing why they did it or their own take.
Cersei now, she's a right b*tch and even with her motives noone likes her. I will say right now that if you read the forth book you'll fin out she starts to get her comeuppance bad.
What you have to realise is that Martin is righting a realistic civil war which may or may not actually become international or is deliberately started by people across the waters.
And that you actually often see the same events from different viewpoints which changes your whole perspective of the event and character. I bet you detested Sansa when you realise she sold out her own father (and her and her sister's only means of escape) because she loved Joffrey right? But the thing is that the characters evolve and you see them evolve.
Content wise - the forth book starts to show more consequences for people you hate and love.

I'll even throw in smething you maybe haven't realise yet. In Book One Arya sees two people talking in the Dragon Room. One very fat person who talks about Dany obliquely and how to prolong/better situate the civil war. What very fat person was close to Dany and did some negotiation for her?
The series is going to be around seven books long. Abd as Beric Dondarrion (that bandit/knight who keep coming back to life) shows, people don't stay dead. Some come back.
There are very few series I'd place aboe this one because it is sublimely human and complex in the right ways. The focus is on humans and their action with the supernatural element falling to the back - although this may change soon.

[valadil]

See this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62027&highlight=george+martin) for how it all began.

He kills them when you least expect it. jP


He actually foreshadows that death. It's subtle though and I didn't catch it until my second reading.

The Hound tells Arya something to the effect of "I don't want to go to Robb's bloody wedding."


I actually like the deaths in these books. A lot. Like, they're a huge part in why I this has become my favorite series.

The reason is that throughout literature, death is how characters get written off after their time is up. When their plots are resolved, characters are allowed to pass on. Not with Martin. He kills them when they're important. It's abrupt and realistic. You get to see their unresolved plots crumble without those characters there. It's so much more meaningful than writing off a character whose work is done.

[TheEmerged]

Keep reading, is my advice. Some of the chapters near the end of book 3 are actually genuinely uplifting and surprising, and without spoiling too much I hope, Jaime goes from strength to strength as a character in book 4 and the story of the Stark family isn't done quite yet.

See, that's my problem too. I've tried to keep reading from that scene twice now and I just can't do it. The book lost me at that point as surely and thoroughly as the megabucks Godzilla (GINO) move lost me at the helicopter scene.

[DomaDoma]

No, I'm with jpbooth on this one. I quit halfway through the fourth book. He has a breathtaking gift with characters, but takes that gift and uses it as the most refined torture implement literature has ever seen. And no matter how many times he betrays you, you can't help but hope that the decent people will manage to keep the reins of power, that someone will get word of what became of their lost and dearest, that there is anything awaiting anyone in this universe besides death and misery, and three-and-a-half books into the Hell that is Westeros, I've finally got to face facts: It isn't going to happen.

My favorite character has already pretty much slain for himself any chance of having a lasting impact on the world. My second-favorite character - well, even if she does have some success, it will mean the deaths of many other characters I like. My third-favorite character may or may not have become an utterly heartless arse since he achieved a position of power, and if not, is a swift target for assassination.

And what does Martin do? He makes me care anew about those in the background, or those who once raised the hairs on the back of my neck, and all the while I know he's only priming them for the death of a thousand cuts.

Well, enough, damnit.

[Gavin Sage]

I like the series a lot less then I did after books 3 and 4. Since in my opinion Martin manages to waste more time then Robert Jordan does. With fewer books which takes some skill. Yes its still very well written (and miles beyond 9/10 of all fantasy) and I still like the books but wish he would get on with it more already.

Though since I quietly expect the books are not about the Starks at all, but instead about the Targaryens (all two of them still alive), if House Stark all gets killed off or meets bad ends I won't be surprised.

[CurlyKitGirl]

Viserys died in Book One. That's half them dead and barely halfway through the first book.
Unless there're other Targaryans.
Although I must admit I do have my suspicions about one bastard . . .

[Prophaniti]

I've always seen his writing as both blessed and cursed, awesome and terrible. The reason is simply this: he writes a very realistic story. I mean a very realistic story. As in things don't always (read: almost never) turn out the way you want them to, bad things and bad people are a fact you can't escape from, things of this nature. It's not the kind of story I'm used to reading, where, even when the chips are down, I'm pretty sure the protagonist is going to come out well somehow.

Thing is, Martin's books don't really have a protagonist (with the possible exception of Dany). They're about simple people, each with their own goals and desires, and few if any of them meant to be read as 'good' or 'evil'.

Really, I think it's brilliant writing, just the kind of thing the fantasy fiction genre needs more of. I do get tired of him killing off all the ones I like though. He's almost as bad as Joss Wedon with that. It's like you realize while your reading; 'Oh, man, things are going well. Someone's gonna bite it soon.' I still find it great writing, and a great read, but I wish he'd be a bit less predictable with killing people off. I don't always know who's gonna die, but I've yet to be wrong about someone dieing when things are looking good.

[DomaDoma]

Viserys died in Book One. That's half them dead and barely halfway through the first book.
Unless there're other Targaryans.
Although I must admit I do have my suspicions about one bastard . . .

Yeah, the whole "promise" thing seriously clicked with me after the second read through the first two. I mean, a "bed of blood", too; Mirri Maz Duur used that one specifically in conjuction with birth, no?

Um, yeah, I'm never going to stop caring about the characters. But I can make the choice to stop reading about how their lives are slowly or suddenly rent to pieces.

Hell, all the horrors we've seen take place before winter.

[CurlyKitGirl]

Yeah, the whole "promise" thing seriously clicked with me after the second read through the first two. I mean, a "bed of blood", too; Mirri Maz Duur used that one specifically in conjuction with birth, no?

Um, yeah, I'm never going to stop caring about the characters. But I can make the choice to stop reading about how their lives are slowly or suddenly rent to pieces.

Hell, all the horrors we've seen take place before winter.

PLus the fact that the woman and the bastard in question both feature blue roses rather prominently (in dreams and death bed/bed of blood).
Besides, the other possible reason for the 'promise' was really really weak. And the person who made it wasn't well, you know. Dishonourable.

EDIT: I actually think that in general, many of their lives are starting to look up or at least will turn out better than they were at the beginning. One word: Sansa.
Besides, Book the Fifth is out in autumn.
And yeah, I'd say they were in early autmn max and the poor Black Watch is up there with roughly one thousand people to hold back what promises to be an extremely bad winter.
Though I can't help but think that Dany'll end up at the Wall somehow.

[DomaDoma]

EDIT: I actually think that in general, many of their lives are starting to look up or at least will turn out better than they were at the beginning. One word: Sansa.

I'll grant you, she is a lot more competent - and an all-around better person - than she was at the beginning, but... I just don't see her out-guileing Mr. Guile himself.

I also really don't like the direction he's taking Arya's character.

EDIT: And watching Brienne's utterly pointless search is all the more painful for it. I'll tell you, I do not expect her symbolism-laden sword of awesome to accomplish a damn thing, or George R.R. Martin wouldn't be George R.R. Martin.

[CurlyKitGirl]

I'll grant you, she is a lot more competent - and an all-around better person - than she was at the beginning, but... I just don't see her out-guileing Mr. Guile himself.

I also really don't like the direction he's taking Arya's character.

EDIT: And watching Brienne's utterly pointless search is all the more painful for it. I'll tell you, I do not expect her symbolism-laden sword of awesome to accomplish a damn thing, or George R.R. Martin wouldn't be George R.R. Martin.

WHo said she'd out - guile Mr. Guile? I just think that she'll actually start seeing the world as you know, the world. And I hope to Io, Sekmet and any other deity I car to name that she'll sort out that little brat. He gets on my nerves worse than Sansa.
Arya's character is disturbing me now, what with her training where she is. And fairly seriously it seems. I'm thinking that if we see her in Book the Fifth it'll be more serious training for her 'profession'. But I think/kind of hope tht she breaks her vow.
It was really pointless and there was no way that sword would mean anything. This is Martin after all. The best we should probably hope for is that whatever word Brienne managed to shout (I haven't read the series for ages though, but I think Book the Forth ended on her shout?) will make Stoneheart more reasonable. Or at least more motivated.

[SmartAlec]

I believe I heard it said that A Feast for Crows is the lowest point for Westeros, and that from here, things will start to pick up; a turning point has been reached, events are now in motion, at least three interested parties are trying to bring the Targaryens back to Westeros, and the next book will involve the three characters who own possibly the only three sets of plot armour in all the land.

Having said that, I know A Dance with Dragons is supposed to be out in September, but according to reports, Martin still hasn't finished it.

[DomaDoma]

Dany is the only one I can think of with any lasting plot armor. Jon loses his the instant someone hears from Wylla. Who's the third? If you mean Tyrion, I doubt it.

But if Martin actually said things pick up, you know, I might just pick it up again myself.

[RTGoodman]

And he kills everyone. He kills them when you least expect it. I'm in the middle of book 3

Well, you got further than me. After having two friends tell me for months about how awesome Song of Fire and Ice is, I finally broke down over Christmas Break and bought it. I stopped reading by Chapter 3, I guess.

Seriously - I'm cool with killing off characters, but jeez. I thought the knight guy in Chapter 1 was supposed to be the prickly, snotty main character that you love to hate. And the he gets killed by ghouls or whatever. And then there's the grumpy old guy that's his squire or whatever. I think to myself, "Oh, this guy is awesome. I'm glad he's the main character." And then the beginning of Chapter 2 rolls around and they hang him, and we start hearing about some siblings and their wolf-cubs. I stopped soon thereafter.

Not to knock the guy, but I just can't get into that book/series.

[CurlyKitGirl]

Dany is the only one I can think of with any lasting plot armor. Jon loses his the instant someone hears from Wylla. Who's the third? If you mean Tyrion, I doubt it.

But if Martin actually said things pick up, you know, I might just pick it up again myself.

YEah; Dany's the only one who actually has events go her way more than half the time.
One could be Bran. I mean, all that happened to him was getting paralysed. And admittedly the Greyjoy thing but even that's turned out to be a blessing of sorts.
Jon is possibly the only other person with plot armour thicker than a delicate china plate, but only possibly.

[Mr. Scaly]

Huh. You know, I keep thinking to myself that I have to get more into this series. I read the first book a few years ago and was both delighted and horrified at once. Tyrion was pure awesome, something about Dany I adore, the Hound, Jon, Brom, Brom, Jaime, Lord Lannister (forget his name) and a bunch of others just really grabbed my attention. Then everybody started to die. In droves. Okay, half of them I couldn't feel sorry for. Sasha betrayed her father. Ned killed his daughter's wolf, then got himself killed. I always knew something bad would happen to Cat. Arya's on the run. Blood, violence, mayhem, obsession. It makes for wonderful reading but I started to get freaked out.

Seriously, do I want to read the rest of the series? It sounds like things go downhill from the first book.

[SmartAlec]

As far as Dany and Jon go, theirs is the song of ice and fire. They're not going anywhere until this little story comes to its' conclusion. As for Tyrion, his plot armour comes from the fact that he's Martin's personal favourite character, and there've been some strong hints that he might end up a part of Dany's court before too long.


Seriously, do I want to read the rest of the series? It sounds like things go downhill from the first book.

It is very dark. Bad things happen to good people and bad people alike. But when something good or unexpected comes along, it feels correspondingly greater.

Book Three Spoilers:

Towards the end of book three, for example, I was in a very grim mood. The Starks were scattered or dead, Tyrion was condemned to death, and then it looked like Jon's enemies among the Night Watch were sending him out to face the people he'd just betrayed, wounded and alone, to die. And I honestly couldn't think of a way how he was going to survive; made worse not because of his heroism in the previous chapter, but also because of what would happen. The Night's Watch would be under the command of a fool, the Watch and the wildlings would bloody each other to bits, the wights would win and it was a disaster.

But the end of that chapter, with the shout of "Stannis! Stannis! STANNIS!" - and the total turnaround and glimmer of hope for the Night's Watch that resulted - I laughed and cried because I was just genuinely happy.

[puppyavenger]

Huh. You know, I keep thinking to myself that I have to get more into this series. I read the first book a few years ago and was both delighted and horrified at once. Tyrion was pure awesome, something about Dany I adore, the Hound, Jon, Brom, Brom, Jaime, Lord Lannister (forget his name) and a bunch of others just really grabbed my attention. Then everybody started to die. In droves. Okay, half of them I couldn't feel sorry for. Sasha betrayed her father. Ned killed his daughter's wolf, then got himself killed. I always knew something bad would happen to Cat. Arya's on the run. Blood, violence, mayhem, obsession. It makes for wonderful reading but I started to get freaked out.

Seriously, do I want to read the rest of the series? It sounds like things go downhill from the first book.

umm, lets say most of the more moral charecters die.

[EvilElitest]

The thing about Martine is that he is something rare in the fantasy world, an actual decent author. What puts him above all of the talentless hacks who infest the genre, sadly. He doesn't allow plot amor, or the common cliches of the fantasy genre to actually make a creative work. I mean, it is like a histrical history novel, it is well devopled and realistic. The thing is however, i don't think he is perfect

Hear me out
I admit he is an amazing world building and character builder, and that is important. But the thing is, i think that his style should be a general standard, not a unique thing. Honestly, i personally think that all fantasy witers should try to put that level of detail into their worlds. martin shouldn't be considered a master, he should be considered a the new standard


His only major flaw is that with so many characters it is hard for me to remember these details. I mean, you need to read the book three times to pick up on all the plot details, major characters will only get minor introductions and we athe audience are expected to know what is going on

Really, if you read these books, keep a note pad
from
EE

[valadil]

His only major flaw is that with so many characters it is hard for me to remember these details. I mean, you need to read the book three times to pick up on all the plot details, major characters will only get minor introductions and we athe audience are expected to know what is going on

Really, if you read these books, keep a note pad
from
EE

A Song of Ice and Fire is Martin's Lord of the Rings. It's supposed to be big and epic. I read a couple other books of his and while they had a respectable amount of characters, they each only had one or two point of view characters, so keeping track of things was much much easier. Too much isn't a flaw of Martin, but of ASoIaF. The reason for all these characters is that Martin needs to reinforcements for the casualties.

--

I don't think Tyrion has plot armor, but he does have fan armor. He's a lot of peoples' favorite character and I'm sure Martin has considered whether or not this makes Tyrion killable. I wouldn't be surprised if Tyrion is killed in the final book, but I'm really hoping he somehow ends up as king.

[DraPrime]

It seems that I'm the only one that doesn't like Dany. It's just that halfway through every single chapter devoted to her I start considering her to be an irritating distraction from all the fun stuff going on in Westeros.

Now Tyrion is just damn cool, and if he dies I'll have a hard time continuing. Seriously, he's the only reason why I didn't put down my book and say "What the hell Martin?" When Rob died.

[Occasional Sage]

JP, good to see you're still reading!

I agree, the books are awfully punishing. They're SO GOOD though! And while I have lost some of my favorite characters, others that I hated have become nothing but loathsomeness with legs, and some have redeemed themselves. I find the raw human-ness of the books unique: no other author manages to make me care in quite the same way, positive or negative, about so high a percentage of characters. Plus, the plot is so involved and Byzantine....

But yeah, I understand. I've been dying a little bit every day, waiting for the next book to be released. All I can do is speculate until then....

[Mr. Scaly]

I think I'll just have to read the first book over again and see how I feel about it. It's been so long, I may feel differently.

[Revlid]

Hell, I've just finished the first book and I don't want to go on, from what I've heard. Anyone Can Die (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AnyoneCanDie) is fine in a 2 hour long movie, or the season finale of a series, or the last few chapters of a book, but (unless it's used sparingly) it's downright draining and depressing in a 7 book epic.

[DomaDoma]

JP, good to see you're still reading!


No, that was me. And only if someone can substantiate that interview. If it exists, well, if I've endured the descent into hell, you'd better believe I can endure the slog up the hill. If not, I will assume there is no uphill, because let's face it, all signs seem to point that way.


As far as Dany and Jon go, theirs is the song of ice and fire.

All right, I was going to say that we've had false prophecies before, but it is the title of the dang series and does fit the both of them. For whatever that's worth.

P.S.: Why, by the insane amount of generally-evil deities, do any new factions think dragging themselves into this whole civil war is in any way a good idea? Is this a part of the same horrendous flow of information that keeps any Stark from knowing what became of any other? On the bright side, with the kingsmoot, Martin finally got me interested in the bloody Iron Islands, and Clash of Kings didn't manage that.

[EvilElitest]

Hell, I've just finished the first book and I don't want to go on, from what I've heard. Anyone Can Die (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AnyoneCanDie) is fine in a 2 hour long movie, or the season finale of a series, or the last few chapters of a book, but (unless it's used sparingly) it's downright draining and depressing in a 7 book epic.

its better actually, becaues then we have an established sense of fear in the series.


When ned died, i was out right shocked. I mean, i was utterly shocke.d It isn't suppose to happen that way . It is suppose to be more happy,. clean, he was suppose to escape. he was the bloody main character, he can;t die that way. ZI mean this can't be happening. And then it hit me, if he can die, who cant


I mean, when you read this book you are actually afraid. There is a real supsense and a lot of other books iack that
from EE

[DomaDoma]

EE, in this series, I don't think it's fear so much as cold, terrible certainty. There is such a thing as overdoing it.

[Executor]

I've read these books... but somehow they still elude me. They're very unaccesible for me. Who the hell is the main character in all this? It's not that I can't enjoy an ensemble cast, I enjoy the Wheel of Time books afterall. But I still like to have some points of focus. Like in Wheel of Time, you have Rand, Mat and Perrin. But in Song of Ice and Fire you have the Starks, the Lannisters, the Targaryens and all of that. In the first book alone I counted eight viewpoint characters, including that guy from the prologue. Eight of them.

Don't get me wrong, Martin is a masterful writer. Not since Tolkien have we seen worldbuilding and writing of this quality in fantasy. I just find his work hard to read, it's hard to find a point of focus in this storm of events. It's a great series, better written than most of the crap on the market these days like Eragon. But... hard to access I find.

And Martin is also undoubtably a master of torture. Westeros is a real crapsack world where the good guys are only good guys by virtue of not being horribly wicked. Hell, the nominal 'good guys' the Targaryens have a habit of political backstabbing and incest.

[puppyavenger]

EE, in this series, I don't think it's fear so much as cold, terrible certainty. There is such a thing as overdoing it.

and yet he can still make them good books.
but yeah, the books can be really depressing

I was shocked when Ned and Rob were killed and Winterfel sacked.

[Gorbash]

I obviously like Dany (who doens't)

I don't. I hate her with a passion. I totally agree with Robert on that one.


I'll kill every Targaryen I can get my hands on, until they are as dead as their dragons and then I will piss on their graves

Damned inbreds. Who is she kidding thinking she's the Queen? And calling Robert Usurper? Makes me wonder if she knows her family history and how Aegon the Conqueror (a clue, Sherlock?) got his crown. I truly hope she dies. The sooner the better.


His only major flaw is that with so many characters it is hard for me to remember these details. I mean, you need to read the book three times to pick up on all the plot details, major characters will only get minor introductions and we athe audience are expected to know what is going on

This is true. At first I thought Jon Snow was a midget. But it really helps reading it twice. You notice some obscene little details you never would have noticed the first time.

[Occasional Sage]

I've read these books... but somehow they still elude me. They're very unaccesible for me. Who the hell is the main character in all this? It's not that I can't enjoy an ensemble cast, I enjoy the Wheel of Time books afterall. But I still like to have some points of focus. Like in Wheel of Time, you have Rand, Mat and Perrin. But in Song of Ice and Fire you have the Starks, the Lannisters, the Targaryens and all of that. In the first book alone I counted eight viewpoint characters, including that guy from the prologue. Eight of them.

Well, I think the main characters are pretty firmly established: they're the three surviving Targaryens. They've been foci the entire time. There are a couple of other Important People, like Arya and (now) Jaime, but the diffused PoV is one of the things I really like about the series. The whole thing is so sprawling that GRRM needs eyes in lots of different places so that we can track *most* of what is happening.


And Martin is also undoubtably a master of torture. Westeros is a real crapsack world where the good guys are only good guys by virtue of not being horribly wicked. Hell, the nominal 'good guys' the Targaryens have a habit of political backstabbing and incest.

Well, I'm not sure I'd call the Targaryens of old the "nominal good guys"; their excesses were horrendous, from what we're told. The new batch... doesn't seem all that bad, really. Although only one of them is a pure-blood.

Oh and @DomaDoma: I was referencing the original thread JP started in November, when he first picked up the books.

ETA: I don't know anything about the interview that was mentioned, this is the first time I've heard that we've passed midnight, metaphorically speaking. I'd love to read that interview, though, if anybody can link to it.

The September release date doesn't seem to hold up: check out the Ice and Fire update page (http://georgerrmartin.com/if-update.html) of GRRM's site; the latest word from the guy who puts the words on the page is that there is no word on when we get the pages.

[kamikasei]

Damned inbreds. Who is she kidding thinking she's the Queen? And calling Robert Usurper? Makes me wonder if she knows her family history and how Aegon the Conqueror (a clue, Sherlock?) got his crown. I truly hope she dies. The sooner the better.

There's a pretty clear difference between "I have conquered your nations in war, now you will pledge fealty to me, and all your kingdoms will become fiefs to the new throne I establish" and "I don't like the king; I'm going to go kill him, and then say that I am his successor".

One is conquest, the other is usurpation. Or: if a title descends through heredity, you can found a new one but not take someone else's.

[DomaDoma]

Well, I think the main characters are pretty firmly established: they're the three surviving Targaryens. They've been foci the entire time.

Three? I don't follow. Other than Jon and Dany, I guess the third focus would also be the third Not-Appearing-in-the-Fourth-Book, but where are you getting that he's a Targaryen? Even the idea that he's a bastard seems entirely the mind's fruit of an irrational Tywin.

[DraPrime]

Three? I don't follow. Other than Jon and Dany, I guess the third focus would also be the third Not-Appearing-in-the-Fourth-Book, but where are you getting that he's a Targaryen? Even the idea that he's a bastard seems entirely the mind's fruit of an irrational Tywin.

There were 3 at the start. Viserys, Dany, and Aemon. Well 2 of them are now dead, so I guess that there's only 1 left.

[kamikasei]

There were 3 at the start. Viserys, Dany, and Aemon. Well 2 of them are now dead, so I guess that there's only 1 left.

That can't be what Occasional Sage meant, since Viserys was never a focus separate from Dany, and Aemon was never a focus at all. Never mind that Viserys died well before the end of the first book.

I'm curious as to who the third could be, too. The only possibility I can think of is who DomaDoma mentions, and I agree that I don't see a basis for it.

[DomaDoma]

Ah, come now. Aemon is a minor mentor figure, and Viserys is just an up-jumped bully who calls himself "the dragon" till your ears are rubbed raw - hardly focus characters.

[SmartAlec]

On the tenuous possibility that That Guy is a Targaryen:

If it's Tyrion to which you refer, it's a pet theory of many, the thought being that Tyrion is the result of a so-far-unmentioned Lady Joanna's rape by King Aegon, and that this was the real reason Tywin gave up the job of Hand. It's tenuous at best, but there are some nagging details that make people think 'hmm':

- "The Dragon has three heads." We know of the existence of one Targaryen and it's very strongly hinted that there is a second, but some people believe there should be a third.

- Tyrion has some skill in designing unusual saddles. Something of a possible Chekhov's Gun, in that he might be able to turn that talent to designing dragon saddles.

- Tyrion has a fascination with dragons. Could be just a young man's curiosity, could be hereditary.

- Both Jon's mother and Dany's mother died as a result of their birth. Curiously, so did Tyrion's. Some believe this is some sort of pattern.

- While Jaime and Cersei both have rich, golden hair, Tyrion's hair is described as 'white-blond'. Given the importance of hair-colour in determining Joffrey's true parentage, many see Tyrion's unusual hair as a sign of mixed Lannister and Targaryen descent.

- "Mummy, I want to see him fly!" Many believe that this yell of Little Robert Arryn's is just asking for the Eyrie to come under attack by Tyrion on dragonback.

Edit - and another one:

Many think it's curious that whereas Jaime and Cersei are named such, Tywin went as far as to give Tyrion a traditional 'Ty' name (as in Tygget, Tyrek, Tywin's father Tytos etc). Is it just a curiosity? Or was Tywin trying to reinforce the public perception that Tyrion was his son, because he wanted the King's rape of his wife to be unknown? 100% pure speculation, but an interesting one.

[kamikasei]

- "Mummy, I want to see him fly!" Many believe that this yell of Little Robert Arryn's is just asking for the Eyrie to come under attack by Tyrion on dragonback.

I would pay to see that. I would watch, and laugh.

[Occasional Sage]

Well, Dany is clear. The second has been well-foreshadowed:

Jon Snow. Ned's nightmares refer to finding his sister Lyana in a "bed of blood," which is a euphemism GRRM has used on at least one other occasion for childbirth. Ned, IIRC, never refers to Jon as his son, but as "my blood"; he's too honorable even to lie in this.

There's lots more to support it, but I think that one is for the most part taken for granted.

For the third, I've come back around to the idea that I pitched in JP's original thread that he links to. Winterwind, I think it was, pointed out some flaws in my memory, but for metareasons I've been coming back to the same conclusion about the third:

I think it's Tyrion Lannister. He acts more like Rhygar than like a Lannister, has some problems with pulling off the Lannister "look" that breeds true in the rest of his family, and has fled across the Narrow Sea, where he's likely to meet Dany. I've gone back and forth, but there's no stronger candidate and he just feels right for so many reasons. I think SmartAlec gives the highlights, and I too would pay good money to see a dragon's head coming in through the Moon Door.

I haven't read the books in a year or more, so when I reread soon to prep for the next I might find something that totally undercuts my theory, but there you have it.

[DomaDoma]

Hey, no worries, I see no reason that this should be under spoiler tags. I just tend to be oblique like that.

Anyway...


On the tenuous possibility that That Guy is a Targaryen:

If it's Tyrion to which you refer, it's a pet theory of many, the thought being that Tyrion is the result of a so-far-unmentioned Lady Joanna's rape by King Aerys, and that this was the real reason Tywin gave up the job of Hand. It's tenuous at best, but there are some nagging details that make people think 'hmm':

- "The Dragon has three heads." We know of the existence of one Targaryen and it's very strongly hinted that there is a second, but some people believe there should be a third.

- Tyrion has some skill in designing unusual saddles. Something of a possible Chekhov's Gun, in that he might be able to turn that talent to designing dragon saddles.

- Tyrion has a fascination with dragons. Could be just a young man's curiosity, could be hereditary.

- Both Jon's mother and Dany's mother died as a result of their birth. Curiously, so did Tyrion's. Some believe this is some sort of pattern.

- While Jaime and Cersei both have rich, golden hair, Tyrion's hair is described as 'white-blond'. Given the importance of hair-colour in determining Joffrey's true parentage, many see Tyrion's unusual hair as a sign of mixed Lannister and Targaryen descent.

- "Mummy, I want to see him fly!" Many believe that this yell of Little Robert Arryn's is just asking for the Eyrie to come under attack by Tyrion on dragonback.

Oh, see, the "three heads" thing - Daenerys' complementing heads are Viserys and Rhaegar, whereas Jon's are the children of King's Landing. Adding Tyrion to Dany's triptych, which is the more thematic of the two, would spoil the balance.

Although yeah, it would be all kinds of awesome if Tyrion got a dragon. And actually (Storm of Swords spoilers), since he's across the Narrow Sea if he has the wit he's ever had, a run-in with Daenerys might just happen, and if so, I don't think she'll much mind the whole kinslayer thing, and I really can't see many other ways he can do something other than go into hiding forever. But since when has Martin come close to fulfilling anyone's deepest desire?

[SmartAlec]

There's a very strong possibility that Tyrion might meet up with Magister Illyrio, given that he and Varys have some kind of working relationship and that Illyrio seems to have this penchant for recruiting capable Westerosi rebels and funnelling them towards Daenerys.

[Occasional Sage]

But since when has Martin come close to fulfilling anyone's deepest desire?

Well, my deepest desire is to hold the next book in my hand, but that doesn't seem to be happening. Draw your own conclusions.

GRRM's website has not updated us on the book's progress since January, which is exactly what he told us would happen. Wikipedia cites a tentative April 2009, but the link to substantiate that is... not applicable.

whimper

[valadil]

Well, my deepest desire is to hold the next book in my hand, but that doesn't seem to be happening. Draw your own conclusions.

GRRM's website has not updated us on the book's progress since January, which is exactly what he told us would happen.

whimper

No, but his livejournal (click "not a blog" on his website) gets updated frequently enough. Unfortunately most of the updates are about football and pizza.

[puppyavenger]

No, but his livejournal (click "not a blog" on his website) gets updated frequently enough. Unfortunately most of the updates are about football and pizza.

so he is human?

[CurlyKitGirl]

Oh, see, the "three heads" thing - Daenerys' complementing heads are Viserys and Rhaegar, whereas Jon's are the children of King's Landing. Adding Tyrion to Dany's triptych, which is the more thematic of the two, would spoil the balance.

Although yeah, it would be all kinds of awesome if Tyrion got a dragon. And actually (Storm of Swords spoilers), since he's across the Narrow Sea if he has the wit he's ever had, a run-in with Daenerys might just happen, and if so, I don't think she'll much mind the whole kinslayer thing, and I really can't see many other ways he can do something other than go into hiding forever. But since when has Martin come close to fulfilling anyone's deepest desire?

Children of King's Landing?


As to Tyrion fleeing across the Narrow Sea: he does. I've read the chapter where he does and he ends up in Braavosi which just so happens to be where Arya is. I think.
Oh, by the way, that update also says that we're getting yet another POV character in Book the Fifth who was around in his Background Westeros series.


I also think Illyrio and one other person have been behind this from the beginning. Arya saw an extremely fat (but light footed) person in the Dragon Room after all. And I remember connecting a lot of things Maybe-Illyrio said to what Illyrio said.
Varys might also be in Illyrio's pay as the other guy did ask for more 'litle birds' which Maybe-Illyrio said would take time as the little ones 'can't haold the voices very well' (paraphrasing here)
It also explains a surprising amount. Maybe-Varys on Maybe-Illyrio's orders slips more clues to bother Lannister and Stark in order to speed them up or slow them down. I'd have to reread that section to write exactly what they said.

[Iku Rex]

I don't like the series. It's not just that Martin keeps killing off characters, he keeps killing of the characters I actually care about. In the last book I read (Storm of Swords?) I skipped roughly half of it because I was just too bored with the utterly unimportant (to me) doings of characters I cared nothing about. So what if they succeed? So what if they fail? It's not like I give a damn.

[Occasional Sage]

See, I'm finding that as characters I like die, I find new people to like. Either old characters I'd previously disliked or discounted, or new characters introduced recently. I like the feel; it's very different from the standard hero-fantasy, with a much more gritty and realistic edge.

[DraPrime]

I would pay to see that. I would watch, and laugh.

I would too. I hated that little kid. He made me want to reach into the book, and do nasty things to him involving fire, pointy knives, and an inevitable trip down a cliff.

[Occasional Sage]

Yeah. As much as I loathe Joffrey, he doesn't incite the same repugnance the little Robert and his mom do. Fire, sharp knives... sandpaper and lemon juice, "recreational" tourniquets, there are lots of things that little kid needs.

[CurlyKitGirl]

I would too. I hated that little kid. He made me want to reach into the book, and do nasty things to him involving fire, pointy knives, and an inevitable trip down a cliff.

Agreed. I don't think there's anyone who actually likes the brat (what's his name now? Jon, Robby? Well, it's unimportant) and his mother.
Breastfeeding at six years old and allowing him anything he wants.
I will not only appluad but n=shunt the person who ends the brats life into the top five.
That's how Littlefinger moved way up even though he's not a POV character after he threw her minstrel and maybe Lysa herself out the Moon Door.

[Occasional Sage]

Agreed. I don't think there's anyone who actually likes the brat (what's his name now? Jon, Robby? Well, it's unimportant) and his mother.
Breastfeeding at six years old and allowing him anything he wants.
I will not only applaud but n=shunt the person who ends the brats life into the top five.
That's how Littlefinger moved way up even though he's not a POV character after he threw her minstrel and maybe Lysa herself out the Moon Door.

n=shunt? From context I take that it's a good thing, but huh?

As for the rest...

Littlefinger threw Lysa out, and accused the minstrel of the crime. That twerp, who really didn't deserve quite as much as he got but still deserved plenty, was kept in a Sky Chamber until he confessed. I think there was some abuse involved too, but my memory is unclear. Broken fingers?

But yeah, Littlefinger is becoming a fascinating character. I don't like him, but I respect and fear him.

[Turcano]

There's a very strong possibility that Tyrion might meet up with Magister Illyrio, given that he and Varys have some kind of working relationship and that Illyrio seems to have this penchant for recruiting capable Westerosi rebels and funnelling them towards Daenerys.

This is actually the case, as revealed in a "sneak preview" chapter.

[CurlyKitGirl]

n=shunt is a typo for 'shunt' meaning to push. So yeah, it's a good thing.
And I knew it was something like that.

[DraPrime]

Littlefinger threw Lysa out, and accused the minstrel of the crime. That twerp, who really didn't deserve quite as much as he got but still deserved plenty, was kept in a Sky Chamber until he confessed. I think there was some abuse involved too, but my memory is unclear. Broken fingers?



He basically said he'd confess if they'd only break his fingers, but let him keep his voice. Or something like that. But I supported that decision since the singing drove the annoying little kid crazy.

[Occasional Sage]

He basically said he'd confess if they'd only break his fingers, but let him keep his voice. Or something like that. But I supported that decision since the singing drove the annoying little kid crazy.

Ah yes, it begins to come back.

Sandpaper and lemon juice for Robert, I'm tellin' ya....

[DraPrime]

Ah yes, it begins to come back.

Sandpaper and lemon juice for Robert, I'm tellin' ya....

I say we finish the whole thing by forcing liquid nitrogen down his throat.

[Occasional Sage]

I say we finish the whole thing by forcing liquid nitrogen down his throat.

Up the nose, I think, would be better.

[DraPrime]

Up the nose, I think, would be better.

Or through an entirely different orifice through which stuff normally leaves? Or maybe we should stop before the mods get angry at us vividly describing how we are going to torture a little boy?

[Occasional Sage]

Or through an entirely different orifice through which stuff normally leaves? Or maybe we should stop before the mods get angry at us vividly describing how we are going to torture a little boy?

A fictional little boy, but yes point well taken.

Hey, speaking of ASoIaF, it sounds like the negotiations with HBO are going well. I'm pretty dang stoked!

[DraPrime]

I'm not sure about the show. A lot of what happens is in the character's thoughts. It's hard to express those well on TV. Still, if they do Tyrion well then I'll be super happy.

[Mr. Scaly]

That's it...I've reached an epiphany. I can't believe I didn't realise this before. The character deaths...the dystopian society...the masses and masses of detail...the strange, almost hypnotic attraction t it...

Song of Fire and Ice is the spawn of Warhammer 40k!

[puppyavenger]

This is actually the case, as revealed in a "sneak preview" chapter.

really? the one in my book is for Danny, with the whole "sons of he harpy"

[Turcano]

He posted it on his website; you can read it here (http://www.georgerrmartin.com/if-sample.html).

[Gorbash]

There's a pretty clear difference between "I have conquered your nations in war, now you will pledge fealty to me, and all your kingdoms will become fiefs to the new throne I establish" and "I don't like the king; I'm going to go kill him, and then say that I am his successor".

First of all, there was a war.
Second of all, Robert didn't kill Aerys.


One is conquest, the other is usurpation.

It really doesn't make much difference, since it comes down to: "I have a bigger gun". Might makes right. It's true today, as it was 1000 years ago.

[kamikasei]

First of all, there was a war.
Second of all, Robert didn't kill Aerys.

I thought it was pretty clear I was oversimplifying a lot. Robert didn't kill Aerys, but he led a war to overthrow him, and then when he was killed - as a direct result of the same disagreement which led Robert to start the war - Robert, who had no legitimate claim to the throne, usurped his title.

I should note also that it was a civil war, not a war of conquest. Why is there a difference? Because in wars of conquest entities with legitimate authority can cede land or surrender to one another. In a civil war you're specifically denying the legitimacy of the authority, and it's much messier.


It really doesn't make much difference, since it comes down to: "I have a bigger gun". Might makes right. It's true today, as it was 1000 years ago.

It comes down to hierarchy, legitimacy, authority, loyalty, and trust.

Subjects pledge fealty to their king. The kingship is hereditary. When Aerys died, his heir was Viserys. Viserys should have inherited the kingship. Instead the lords and houses who were pledged to him betrayed their oaths and supported Robert's invalid claim to the throne. That was usurpation. When Aegon conquered the Seven Kingdoms and made its nations vassals that was not usurpation, because the seven kings had the authority to suborn themselves to him. Had he taken the titles of each of the kings instead of making them subjects of his new throne, that would indeed have been usurpation.

Of course, this doesn't really make any sense. It has all kind of issues from a political science point of view. But it's how legitimacy of power works in Westeros, and it's why Dany is justified in considering Robert an usurper, though that doesn't mean she should replace him.

[Mr. Scaly]

Question.

When I first read A Game of Thrones I was a good five or six years younger than I am now and everything came as a surprise (aside from Littlefinger's jerkassness). Now, years later I'm reading the part where Eddard Stark actively refuses to do the smart thing and overthrow Cersei while he can, and I can read the writing on the wall. My question is...what on Earth is wrong with me that I couldn't see it back then?!

[valadil]

Question.
Now, years later I'm reading the part where Eddard Stark actively refuses to do the smart thing and overthrow Cersei while he can, and I can read the writing on the wall. My question is...what on Earth is wrong with me that I couldn't see it back then?!

When you first read it you were secretly hoping for it to be a story about the noble and just guy taking a stand against corrupt politics. This time around you know better. I made that mistake too.

[SmartAlec]

I saw it coming, because I'd read Dune. Oh look, I thought. Here's the noble father about to be brought low, and the son who will avenge him.

I was blindsided there, instead.

[The J Pizzel]

I hate all of you. Why? Because you all have read more than me and I can't partake in any of your conversations. Instead, I have to sit here and read your posts like some little kid who can't play baseball with the big kids. Except I'm tempted to lie my age on the sign-up sheet and sneak in the dugout and read the spoilers. Oh well. Just like on the last thread, the spoiler tags remain unclicked and I appreciate all the awesome conversation.

And just so we're clear; the title of the thread is meant in a total act of sarcasm. I will finish the series. And I will read them again. Then a third time. Then I'll subsribe to HBO HD so I can watch it.

jP

[Gavin Sage]

I think it's Tyrion Lannister. He acts more like Rhygar than like a Lannister, has some problems with pulling off the Lannister "look" that breeds true in the rest of his family, and has fled across the Narrow Sea, where he's likely to meet Dany. I've gone back and forth, but there's no stronger candidate and he just feels right for so many reasons. I think SmartAlec gives the highlights, and I too would pay good money to see a dragon's head coming in through the Moon Door.



Nahh:

Far too circumstanial there I think. One we don't nessecarily need there to be three Targaryens to fufill that bit about three heads. Dany and Rhaegar demonstrate that the simplest perception of prophecy may not be accurate. For that matter I don't think we really know too much about what exactly is being prophecised.

Even then, the odds of Tyrion being a Targaryen are slim. I can't imagine Tywin letting a bastard claim his family name when he can't even stand whoring. Then there's Tywin and Tyrion being more like each other then any of their other relatives. Tyrion is nicer then his siblings or father, but we don't see that much prickishness in the lower level Lannisters so I don't know that the image ascribed is quite deserved. Which shuts down a lot of Rhaegar comparasion, which isn't that strong as numerous characters are moral. (They just tend to get ass-raped for it)

If we've got a third Targaryen running around my bet is on either a new character, or one without much of an established background. Aemon for example came out of nowhere. And then there's the well established existence of bastards, if one why not another.

[Ranna]

ive read many theories on towerofthehand.com and i still can't get enough. I found a feast for crows rather dull seeing as none of the characters i truly cared about were in it, but then martin never planned on writing these two books which is why they are taking so long. So Im hoping that the next few books will be out quicker!

[SmartAlec]

Nahh:

I can't imagine Tywin letting a bastard claim his family name when he can't even stand whoring.

Tywin's primary motivations aren't hard to glimpse. He does not want to be laughed at, as his father was. That's why he rules with an iron fist, that's why he's merciless and icy. That's why he plays the Game of Thrones to win - he wants to make his family name inspire... fear, respect, obedience, anything so long as it's not mockery.

This might also be why he outright rejects any possibility of there being a 'relationship' between Cersei and Jaime - he never even countenances the possibility it might be true, not once. But he takes steps to marry Cersei and even Jaime off again as soon as he can to try to make it seem like a lie, which hints that his real fear is that people will believe it's true, regardless of whether it is or not. Same with Tyrion marrying a crofter's daughter, he doesn't even let Tyrion know the truth of that, let alone anyone else. Likewise, who's to say Tywin can't stand whoring? He can't stand his son whoring, and why? Because his son is not discreet. He does not say, "You will not take the whore to King's Landing" - he says, "You will not take the whore to court." It's not Tyrion's tendencies that concern him, it's Tyrion parading them in public. It's not that Tyrion slept with a crofter's daughter, it's that he went so far as to marry the girl. It's not until it becomes clear that Tyrion might have threatened his nephew with rape to protect a whore that Tywin really clamps down.

Now, given who is in his bed at the end of Storm of Swords, one wonders if Tywin was against whoring per se, or whether he was against the negative reputation that associating with whores gave his name. Remember that secret tunnel that was built to Chataya's for 'a previous Hand of the city'? Who could that be? Could it have been Tywin? It certainly wasn't Jon Arryn, it's likely it wasn't Pyromancer Rossart, and we don't know enough about Aerys's other two hands to make a judgement call, but neither of them were Hands for very long and Shae should be enough to make us reassess Tywin's stance on whoring.

So that's Tywin's thing. If something can cast a ridiculous shadow on his family, shuts it out of his perception and takes pains to obscure it, even going so far as to try to appear inhuman - because human desires and weakness are things that can be mocked, he refuses to let anyone see he has them. That's why he might be willing to give Tyrion his family name - because to do otherwise is to announce that Tyrion is a bastard and that his wife became pregnant by another man, which he cannot do. But Tywin's not willing to go any further - he refuses to even consider the possibility of Tyrion being the heir to Casterly Rock when legally, he is - and Tyrion often unknowingly hints at what might be the truth when he says, "All dwarfs are bastards in their father's eyes."

Yes, the truth that Tyrion isn't as unlike Tywin as his other children is just that, a truth - but it could be all the more ironic, and painful for Tywin, if Tyrion isn't even his son.

[Ranna]

@^: I've not heard that theory before, Love it!

I also love the fact that martin makes us all re-read into his books searching out patterns (I myself am rubbish at deducing anything but I love reading other people's take on things).

Pity Tyrion is hideous!

[Gavin Sage]

*Snipped*

The problem is why Tywin would not have simply smothered Tyrion in the cradle. Even as a Lannister a dwarf bring plenty of scorn and laughter. I can see Tywin letting even a twisted son live on the basis of some sort of family loyalty, but the bastard son of another man... no.

Besides the timeline doesn't work. Presumable rape and nigh proxy murder of your one true love ranks somewhere above snubbing a marriage proposal and not consulting a promotion for a son. It makes no sense for Tywin to continue as Hand after the events leading to Tyrion's birth assuming this is true.

While the exact specifics escape me, we know that Oberyn and Elia Martell visited Casterly Rock right after Tyrion's birth. While exactly how old everyone is I don't believe is described exactly, but they are all still children. Elia of course went on to marry Rhaegar. We've got several years before the tourney at Harrenhal at least.

Its getting up to a lot of tolerance from Tywin here. The best argument in favor for this the impossiblity of other options and a desire to give Tyrion plot armor. Only with the number of books left there is no reason to suppose a new character, or one who's past we know less of, can fufill the third head of the dragon.

[DomaDoma]

Its getting up to a lot of tolerance from Tywin here. The best argument in favor for this the impossiblity of other options and a desire to give Tyrion plot armor. Only with the number of books left there is no reason to suppose a new character, or one who's past we know less of, can fufill the third head of the dragon.

Not that it's really necessary anyway. The three-headed dragon in question consists of Rhaegar, Viserys, and Daenerys. The other, with little doubt in my mind, consists of Rhaenys, Aegon, and Jon. And we know the Targaryen family hasn't always made a habit of the three-children thing; I'd wager the two trios are to tease us about the whole prince-who-was-promised prophecy.

[SmartAlec]

To look at it another way, we have three dragons, and we need three dragon riders.

[JonathanC]

See this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62027&highlight=george+martin) for how it all began.

I hate him. He's such a god**mn good author that I hate him. And he kills everyone. He kills them when you least expect it. I'm in the middle of book 3 and just as Robb and Cat are going to marry 'ole Edmund away, they're making plans to go home. Arya's almost back with her mom, a smidgeon of good is about to come upon the poor northern family...they get betrayed. And they die. Nope, no captives. They die. No terms, hostages, treaties, negotians, warnings. They just die. Cat wathes her last son get stabbed in the fu**ing heart, then goes mad and claws her face to hell. Then someone slits her throat. They frappin die. Ned was a surprise. The " 'Ole Bear" Mormont getting betrayed by the watch at crasters and dying was a bit of a surprise. Renly and all the others we're surprises. But I didn't see this crap coming.
I'll admit, both of the above characters we're playing on my nerves. Starting to make more mistakes than usual. Being a little too stuborn and honorable like Ned. I kinda foresaw one of them going, but not both. And sure's hell not like that.

In the other thread people told me to just hang in there. Well, I am. But I'm not enjoying it /sarcasm.

Seriously though...could this be a better damn series? I don't even know who my favorite characters are anymore. I obviously like Dany (who doens't) and Jon (same), but I'm starting to like Jaime...am I a bad person?

jP
Lots of people like Jaime, and Tyrion as well...and I admit, so do I, to a certain extent.

That said, I still want to see all of the Lannisters dead.

For the record, my favorite is Arya, though after A Storm of Swords, I've tried not to get too attached to anyone. Take your time getting through the fourth book...you've got nothing to look forward to after it, except for interminable waiting for GRRM to finish A Dance with Dragons. :(

[Gavin Sage]

Not that it's really necessary anyway. The three-headed dragon in question consists of Rhaegar, Viserys, and Daenerys. The other, with little doubt in my mind, consists of Rhaenys, Aegon, and Jon. And we know the Targaryen family hasn't always made a habit of the three-children thing; I'd wager the two trios are to tease us about the whole prince-who-was-promised prophecy.

Or Dany is the dragon and her dragons are the three heads. Illyrio phrases things rather like that in the preview chapter. With the indentity of the riders not being particularly relevant. Or any combination of.

Our known other only needs to exist persay to ensure the continuation of the Targaryen line. Since so help me I remember Dany was rendered sterile by the witch's treachery. Or to keep the "incest is best" theme a going into the conclusion.

Its pure supposition that we need a third Targaryen in the first place. I just think that even then the odds still stand against Tryion being one. And that dwarf ain't never gonna be able to handle a dragon to ride.

[Mr. Scaly]

I think it would depend on the saddle actually.

[The J Pizzel]

Well, I finished it (Storm of Swords). Wow. Didn't see any of that coming.

So, Tyrion snapped. Oddly enough up till now he's always said how much he hates his sister and father, but anytime it came to violence he would always say how he couldn't kill them. OH well. Jaime let him free, he snapped. Killed Shae (saw that coming), his own friggin dad, Tywin; and that's how it ends. Jon is now the friggin Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. Stannis saved the day at the Wall (awesome chapter) and offered Jon Winterfell. I'm glad he didn't take it. Arya is off to the Free Cities. I'm assuming she's gonna train under the faceless men and become an assasin. And last but not least, Cat didn't die. I'm assuming Thoros breathed fire in her and she came back. Very interesting. Oh, let's not forget...Littlefinger through Lysa out of a frappin window. Very cool. Lysa sucked.

All in all. I need a break. I'm gonna take a week off before reading the fourth. These bood are too damn good. If I start now i'll be done in 2 weeks.

So, any cool stuff I hadn't noticed. Ya'll can quit spoilering unless it pertains to the fourth book.

jP

[EvilElitest]

Well, I finished it (Storm of Swords). Wow. Didn't see any of that coming.

So, Tyrion snapped. Oddly enough up till now he's always said how much he hates his sister and father, but anytime it came to violence he would always say how he couldn't kill them. OH well. Jaime let him free, he snapped. Killed Shae (saw that coming), his own friggin dad, Tywin; and that's how it ends. Jon is now the friggin Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. Stannis saved the day at the Wall (awesome chapter) and offered Jon Winterfell. I'm glad he didn't take it. Arya is off to the Free Cities. I'm assuming she's gonna train under the faceless men and become an assasin. And last but not least, Cat didn't die. I'm assuming Thoros breathed fire in her and she came back. Very interesting. Oh, let's not forget...Littlefinger through Lysa out of a frappin window. Very cool. Lysa sucked.

All in all. I need a break. I'm gonna take a week off before reading the fourth. These bood are too damn good. If I start now i'll be done in 2 weeks.

So, any cool stuff I hadn't noticed. Ya'll can quit spoilering unless it pertains to the fourth book.

jP

I have to say, it is really interesting watching you read, because i'm re reading the series at the same time. The thing with Martin is, the world is so grim, that when something good happens like Jon becoming commander, it is actually really furfilling. Like you know, real life
from
EE

[DomaDoma]

The thing with Martin is, the world is so grim, that when something good happens like Jon becoming commander, it is actually really furfilling. Like you know, real life
from
EE

If real life were anywhere near as grim as A Song of Ice and Fire, I'd have committed suicide long ago.

[Blackadder]

If real life were anywhere near as grim as A Song of Ice and Fire, I'd have committed suicide long ago.
Try reading up on the Hundred Year's War sometime, or the Third Crusade, or that little place called Rwanda where in 1994 close to one million people were mureded as the Hutus set out to kill or oppress all moderate Hutus and commit Genocide on the Tutsis. It lasted just over one hundred days and the offical death count was pegged at 937,000 meaning an average of 9186 odd people died every day, most of which were killed by machetes. Several people had unconfirmed body counts in the high hundreds.

Heck look at Iraq where International Observers have pegged the number of civilian Iraq deaths since 2003 at roughly 1.2 million(The Lancent and ORB studies), the numbers also say that as many as eight percent of that one point two million figure is not the US direct fault but rather inter-tribal or inter-religious warfare.

While R.R Martin is not pretty at least he's not candy coating war like most fantasy does.

[EvilElitest]

If real life were anywhere near as grim as A Song of Ice and Fire, I'd have committed suicide long ago.

real life is about as grim as SoFaI, at least back during the time period it takes. It is really a lot like reading a historical fiction. in fact, it is actually a little more romantic than real life, because if this was real life, i think Aya would be dead from all the bad food she has been eating (does martin hate her, she seems to suffer more than most characters)
from
EE

[Pokemaster]

real life is about as grim as SoFaI, at least back during the time period it takes. It is really a lot like reading a historical fiction. in fact, it is actually a little more romantic than real life, because if this was real life, i think Aya would be dead from all the bad food she has been eating (does martin hate her, she seems to suffer more than most characters)
from
EE

By the end of A Feast for Crows, she's doing a whole lot better than most of the other characters.

[DomaDoma]

Blackadder, I've sent you a PM regarding Lancet and ORB, as it's not this thread's territory.

But carrying on: the Crusades and Rwanda are cross-sections of the very worst the human race can offer. Of course, in Westeros, a five-way civil war looks very much like a five-way civil war. But while war is hell, peace is just a quieter hell, all men and women are either slaves or constantly on the watch for a dagger in the back, and - and this is key - nobody ever gives a lasting benefit to their fellowman, no good deed goes unpunished, the very worst people hold the very most sway, and everybody with a shred of honor and decency is just ground ceaselessly, unendingly, into the glass-shard-strewn dirt until they are dead or their will is broken. That is not reality.

[EvilElitest]

But carrying on: the Crusades and Rwanda are cross-sections of the very worst the human race can offer. Of course, in Westeros, a five-way civil war looks very much like a five-way civil war. But while war is hell, peace is just a quieter hell, all men and women are either slaves or constantly on the watch for a dagger in the back, and - and this is key - nobody ever gives a lasting benefit to their fellowman, no good deed goes unpunished, the very worst people hold the very most sway, and everybody with a shred of honor and decency is just ground ceaselessly, unendingly, into the glass-shard-strewn dirt until they are dead or their will is broken. That is not reality.
People do give for their fellows in the book, but everybody is still has their own interests to look out for. Everybody, not just the people with names. Considering the time, this is actually pretty accurate. The peasents are suffering under the yolk of the strong. The knights act civil to each other and ruthlessly bully those beneath them (Like you know, real life)
and the winners are not the rightous or the wicket, but the saavy. I mean, you may point out the despair, but look at Jon's election, or Arya's murder of the Ticklier, or the death of Ser Gregor (best scene in the book). People in that book act realistically, based upon their situations
from
EE

[warty goblin]

Blackadder, I've sent you a PM regarding Lancet and ORB, as it's not this thread's territory.

But carrying on: the Crusades and Rwanda are cross-sections of the very worst the human race can offer. Of course, in Westeros, a five-way civil war looks very much like a five-way civil war. But while war is hell, peace is just a quieter hell, all men and women are either slaves or constantly on the watch for a dagger in the back, and - and this is key - nobody ever gives a lasting benefit to their fellowman, no good deed goes unpunished, the very worst people hold the very most sway, and everybody with a shred of honor and decency is just ground ceaselessly, unendingly, into the glass-shard-strewn dirt until they are dead or their will is broken. That is not reality.

I really didn't get that sense- Winterfell seemed like a pretty nice place to live at the beginning of Game of Thrones. Sure the Starks had to be a little bit paranoid, but they were also extremely powerful people living in an only somewhat stable political climate (Robert's been king for what, 20-30 years or so and they've had a major rebellion, there's still bad blood about the civil war, and there was at least one other reasonably major war in living memory (Ninepenny Kings)). Given the time period the world is based on, this feels about right as well.The commoners seem more or less as happy as can be expected, although we really don't see much of them until after everything goes to hell in a handbasket.

[DomaDoma]

Oh, yes, the savvy. Good one. The savvy are regularly crushed by the little finger of Fate - the happenstance of sitting next to the wrong person at the wrong time, or never getting anywhere that might be a respite, and the ones that do the best are pressure-twisted until they're not even the people you rooted for anymore (yes, this appears to include Jon), and let's not forget that Cersei Lannister, the least savvy character ever to scheme, has stayed in power for the entire run of the series I've read. In fact, the only savvy character who's done well and kept it that way is the one who happened to start the five-way civil war.

And then, I suppose, there's Daenerys. Her triumphs thus far have almost all turned to ash, but if there's any decent human being with both brains and power - in other words, anybody who can do good for the festering pus-wound they inhabit - it's her. But because of the unbendable horror of her universe, she won't. It won't be enough sadism on Martin's part for her to, for the clearest instance, kill Jaime - to exist in Westeros, the most optimistic character of the lot must be broken again and again and again.

[EvilElitest]

Oh, yes, the savvy. Good one. The savvy are regularly crushed by the little finger of Fate - the happenstance of sitting next to the wrong person at the wrong time, or never getting anywhere that might be a respite, and the ones that do the best are pressure-twisted until they're not even the people you rooted for anymore (yes, this appears to include Jon), and let's not forget that Cersei Lannister, the least savvy character ever to scheme, has stayed in power for the entire run of the series I've read. In fact, the only savvy character who's done well and kept it that way is the one who happened to start the five-way civil war.

Cerci stayed in power because her family, who are Savvy (her father, uncle, and brothers). Remember what happens in the last book? Or even in the first book before Tyrion shows up as a hand. She almost looses all control. Luck and happenstance play into it, but it isn't a black white view. Like real life events are forged based upon how you act, not so much on what kind of person you are.


For example, Ned he was a very honorable person and a good character. And yet he failed in the end? Why? Because he kept making political blunders, which is one of the flaws of honor.



And then, I suppose, there's Daenerys. Her triumphs thus far have almost all turned to ash, but if there's any decent human being with both brains and power - in other words, anybody who can do good for the festering pus-wound they inhabit - it's her. But because of the unbendable horror of her universe, she won't.


Her triumph turning to ash? She runs an entire city now, and has won almost every battle. Do you mean how not everything isn't perfect, well yeah, thats like real life. There has never been a real life conquest that went smoothly i believe. take the fact that the taking of the city was a total slaughter. Well that is what happens in war, and yet she was able to keep in check by being a strong leader.

Or how the other city has fallen to dicatorship. Well, quite honestly, that tends to happen throughout history, where despots take power.



It won't be enough sadism on Martin's part for her to, for the clearest instance, kill Jaime - to exist in Westeros, the most optimistic character of the lot must be broken again and again and again.
The reason why they keep getting broken is because optimisism only leads to that. when you deny the reality around you based upon blind optimism like Sansa does, or are unrealistically confident in your abilities like Jamie is, it makes sense that this will happen
from
EE

[DomaDoma]

Something happens to Cersei in the last book? I might keep reading just for that. (But I won't.)

Ned Stark is not who I am talking about here. It is fully apparent why Ned Stark couldn't compete in Westeros politics. What is not apparent is why only Littlefinger, of all the savvy characters, can. And when outside the political sphere, honor can be and is, in real life, a standard to rally behind. But tell that to Brienne of Tarth, mocked and cheated, with nothing but a wide-eyed boy behind her, and, to add injury to insult, so far off the trail of her quest that you wonder why you are reading her pitiful fly's wrigglings in Fate's web.

Yes, Astapor and Meereen are exactly what I mean - the moment Daenerys turns her back, everything falls further into the abyss than it was before. I guess "optimistic" was the wrong word to use, because I only meant someone to look to for hope. She's anything but optimistic since Mirri Maz Duur, and good for her, but that doesn't mean Jorah Mormont, for instance, won't cripple her efforts beyond repair. Something assuredly will.

Also, I'll add that the Ironmen and Dornishmen have to be bereft of all sense in the world to want a share in the mass carnage. Hell, now that I think of it, the Ironmen will be dragging Dany with them. And so the world belongs to the blind idiots as much as it does to the evil.

[SmartAlec]

What is not apparent is why only Littlefinger, of all the savvy characters, can.

He might not be the only one. One thing that becomes increasingly clear throughout A Clash of Kings is that Littlefinger and Varys have been sparring, using puppets, for some time now. At the moment, it looks like Littlefinger is winning, but the game's not over yet.

[warty goblin]

Also, I'll add that the Ironmen and Dornishmen have to be bereft of all sense in the world to want a share in the mass carnage. Hell, now that I think of it, the Ironmen will be dragging Dany with them. And so the world belongs to the blind idiots as much as it does to the evil.

Well, looting and pillaging is what the Ironmen do, and it's always easier to loot and pillage when everyone is pre-killed for your convenience. Also note that a lot of them do seem to be of somewhat...questionable sanity, Damphair, Crowseye etc.

I also seem to recall (at least in book 4) that Dorne manages to stay out of the war.

[Blackadder]

Blackadder, I've sent you a PM regarding Lancet and ORB, as it's not this thread's territory.
I'll try to respond sometime tomorrow on that



But carrying on: the Crusades and Rwanda are cross-sections of the very worst the human race can offer. Of course, in Westeros, a five-way civil war looks very much like a five-way civil war. But while war is hell, peace is just a quieter hell, all men and women are either slaves or constantly on the watch for a dagger in the back, and - and this is key - nobody ever gives a lasting benefit to their fellowman, no good deed goes unpunished, the very worst people hold the very most sway, and everybody with a shred of honor and decency is just ground ceaselessly, unendingly, into the glass-shard-strewn dirt until they are dead or their will is broken. That is not reality.
Oh what a happy rosy view of the world we have. You need not look far to find places that look a lot like Westros, I point you to the Burmese military juanta which let it's people die in the thousands rather than accept Western Aid after Cyclone Nargis. Look to the wonderful society that was Afghanstain under Taliban rule 96-2001. Look to the current places of depravity, corruption and outright villainy such as Columbia and the Ivory Coast.

There are valley's and entire countries in parts of our world that minus technology could fit right into a book in the Song of Ice and Fire.

However onto the point, it's noted that in a Song of Ice and fire(and repeated many times in the viewpoints of everyone from **** Crab to the various small-folk that Arya and the Maid of Tarth) that the land was peaceful enough. There existed no major bandit groups and only a few great trouble spots.

Beyond the Wall
The Wildlings in the Mountains of the Moon who were a danger to few except those who took the High Road and the occasional raid on the Vale(How often and how far they attacked is not made clear but it's pointed out the Clans were in a bad way when Tyrion found them, John Aryan having gone a long way to stamp out any danger they posed)

Remeber there is no standing Army in Westeros, there were Knights and Guardsmen but no long term standing armies. The trouble of raping and pilliaging only occurs once the Lord call their Banners(All the minor Lordlings sworn to their house) who turn around and find everyone who know's which end of a sword to put in someone, groups them in an Army and sends them against "The enemy" and while in Enemy land these "soldiers" feel free to do whatever they want.


The daily rapes, rading and the like were absent in the the first book until the Mountain that Rides began to kick off the campaign by murdering small-folk and things only got worse from there.

[Blackadder]

Something happens to Cersei in the last book? I might keep reading just for that. (But I won't.)


Something does indeed happen to her, and oh is it sweet. The 4th book shows things from her perspective we finaly get a look in her head and it's not pleasant.

[DomaDoma]

Oh what a happy rosy view of the world we have.

Call it the bias of Western civilization, then. I like that bias.

[Blackadder]

Call it the bias of Western civilization, then. I like that bias.
Indeed, don't look outside the Western World then, you sir would get very depressed.

My point was two-fold
One, that the Real world IS that Bad(In Non-Western Place)
Two, that until the War of the Five Kings, it was not that bad in Martin's world, you only had the traditional normal everyday bad things of people in power abusing their power.

After the war... yes it's pretty bad, the strong rule the weak, it's not mad-max because the land is pretty rich, oh and no internal combustion engines. Mad-Max with horses just does not work as well I'm afraid.

[Mr. Scaly]

I think I'm going to stop reading spoilered comments, since I've decided to read more of the series.

[EvilElitest]

Something happens to Cersei in the last book? I might keep reading just for that. (But I won't.)

Basically her power relies on her family


"she[Cersei] liked to think of herself as Lord Tywin with teats, but she was wrong. Their father had been as relentless and implacable as a glacier, where Cersei was all wildfire, especially when thwarted. ... She does not lack for wits, but she has no judgment, and no patience."
Jamie Lannister A Feast for Crows, pg. 234 (hardcover)

After her father dies, she generally screws everything up and has been captured by the church



Ned Stark is not who I am talking about here. It is fully apparent why Ned Stark couldn't compete in Westeros politics. What is not apparent is why only Littlefinger, of all the savvy characters, can. And when outside the political sphere, honor can be and is, in real life, a standard to rally behind
1) Little finger is succeceful because he is the most cynical, he is the one most aware of his abilities. While other characters are savvy, they are often blind by their arrogence, their bloated personalities, ect. Littlefinger is aware of his limitations
2) And honor is used as something to rally around in the book, but it is still effected by politics. Thats life, almost everything is effected by politics some how.


But tell that to Brienne of Tarth, mocked and cheated, with nothing but a wide-eyed boy behind her, and, to add injury to insult, so far off the trail of her quest that you wonder why you are reading her pitiful fly's wrigglings in Fate's web.
Quite frankly, Brienne is in her situation because of her personality, and her bad luck. But what do you expect. Hell, by rights she should be dead, i mean Jamie had a change of heart and saved her from the bear, what do you call that


Yes, Astapor and Meereen are exactly what I mean - the moment Daenerys turns her back, everything falls further into the abyss than it was before. I guess "optimistic" was the wrong word to use, because I only meant someone to look to for hope. She's anything but optimistic since Mirri Maz Duur, and good for her, but that doesn't mean Jorah Mormont, for instance, won't cripple her efforts beyond repair. Something assuredly will.
1) Because that often happens in real life conquests, things never ever go smoothly. Daenerys doesn't have the force to hold both cities
2) Well MMD had good reason to betray her



Also, I'll add that the Ironmen and Dornishmen have to be bereft of all sense in the world to want a share in the mass carnage. Hell, now that I think of it, the Ironmen will be dragging Dany with them. And so the world belongs to the blind idiots as much as it does to the evil.
1) Why would the Ironmen have anything to do with danny? they aren't doing so well themselves
2) Dorn is neutral
3) and that last statement isn't true. What about Jon Snow. What about Tryrion or Arya. The world doesn't belong to anybody, it isn't clean like that. good and evil are vague, and who wins is never quite clear. Like say, history
from
EE

[Blackadder]

2) Dorn is neutral

Not so

Re-read the Princess end POV again it becomes clear, that Martell has been planning to put a new Tagarian King on the throne since the day his sister died. The only reason the two Targ children are alive is because of Martell and half a dozen others(The Spider and the Merchant) have been keeping them alive for a reason, to retake the throne. For Martell it's both vengence and cold reasoning, that being, the Targarians have been much better rulers than anything the Seven Kingdom's ever had, there are acceptations but they still believe that blood tells and it tells that Targarians are either very good King's or very crazy ones. And even the crazy ones can work out(Baloure the Blessed(SP?)

[Pokemaster]

1) Why would the Ironmen have anything to do with danny? they aren't doing so well themselves



They have a horn that supposedly commands dragons.

[DomaDoma]

Indeed, don't look outside the Western World then, you sir would get very depressed.

I have, in point of fact, read a complete history of Afghanistan since the Soviets to the present day. That is, indeed, very much like Song of Ice and Fire. It even comes complete with a Robb Stark. But it's not nearly as depressing until you decide Afghanistan and, say, Colombia plus a slave trade, are the only two places on Earth. Because even outside the West, you have places like Jordan or Turkey or, these days, India - places where the good side of humanity is winning out. It happens.

[Blackadder]

I have, in point of fact, read a complete history of Afghanistan since the Soviets to the present day. That is, indeed, very much like Song of Ice and Fire. It even comes complete with a Robb Stark. But it's not nearly as depressing until you decide Afghanistan and, say, Colombia plus a slave trade, are the only two places on Earth. Because even outside the West, you have places like Jordan or Turkey or, these days, India - places where the good side of humanity is winning out. It happens.
And you have places like North Korea where the only way to survive is to stay in the military, because there they only ones who get regular food(NK still has starving deaths in the low thousands each year)

And you have places like Zimbabwe Robert Mugabe which are cases studies in what truly incompetent and corrupt Cersei quality leadership get you. Specifically Hyperinflation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:250m-zwd.jpg
If your wondering, the above two hundred and fifty million dollar bill is enough buy you... nothing since at present 250 million Zimbabwen dollars is worth roughly .002 American cents.

That hyperinflation might have something to do with the fact that Mr Mugabe decided that because Zimbabwe like many old British colonies had serious economic disparities he was going to correct it by taking away all land and redistributing it fairly to everyone. In perfect world that might make some sort of moral sense except Zimbabwe gets most of it's money from farming, so when he took large tracks of farm land and gave them away to "the people" (Read people who supported him) the large rich and to be trustful mostly white farmers looked at the land they had left, decided to forget this mess and sold what they had and left the country turning the country from a net exporter of crops to a country that needed to inport it's crops to feed it's own people.

Toss in a war with Congo in 1998 which was all but a naked land grab, toss in his plan to "clean up the city" by burning down the poor sections of town, and toss in lawless and a government that is openly corrupt and you get a bad deal.

The reason I bring them up is because the country has been in the news recently since Zimbabwe held elections and despite the fact that Robert Mugabe party stuffing the ballet boxes(Over 35% of all registered voters are suspected of being fake) his party still lost, the international observers estimate that the opposition party won close to 90% of actual voters, but Robert Mugabe is still in power and refusing to turn it over despite having taken is country from one of the bright spots in Africa to the country with the worst economy, the second lowest GDP and it might intrest you to know that the average life experience has fallen from 60 for males and 65 for females in 1980 to 37 for males and 39 for females, making it the worst in the entire world.

But look on the bright side....
Hmmm, gotta be here somewhere

[EvilElitest]

Not so

Re-read the Princess end POV again it becomes clear, that Martell has been planning to put a new Tagarian King on the throne since the day his sister died. The only reason the two Targ children are alive is because of Martell and half a dozen others(The Spider and the Merchant) have been keeping them alive for a reason, to retake the throne. For Martell it's both vengence and cold reasoning, that being, the Targarians have been much better rulers than anything the Seven Kingdom's ever had, there are acceptations but they still believe that blood tells and it tells that Targarians are either very good King's or very crazy ones. And even the crazy ones can work out(Baloure the Blessed(SP?)

oh, i never actually that could you explain in a bit more detail (also how have the helped the second child, if he is who i think he is

Jon Snow


Also DD, western history is extremely depressing. Look at Europe during the middle ages, a lot like Song and of fire and ice. Even today we have a lot of problems
from
EE

[SmartAlec]

I think Blackadder was referring to Prince Viserys.

[DomaDoma]

Zimbabwe is still not the entire world. There are places for refugees to go. I believe this entire discussion began by "so grim, the election of one of the heroes, despite turning him into a complete jerk, is just a ray of light through the thunderheads. Just like real life." To say that from the comfort of your home behind your computer is, frankly, asinine.

Also, Arya not only has no control, she isn't even Arya anymore.

[Blackadder]

Zimbabwe is still not the entire world. There are places for refugees to go. I believe this entire discussion began by "so grim, the election of one of the heroes, despite turning him into a complete jerk, is just a ray of light through the thunderheads. Just like real life." To say that from the comfort of your home behind your computer is, frankly, asinine.


We have gotten rather far afield however, one last post on the subject. No Zimbabwe is not the entire world, but no bit of Africa is shining light onto the world(Except maybe Morocco), there are plenty of nice places in the world, but a good 40% of it is still third world or lower. Plus there are places where you race or religion can make your life an utter hell. I could list countries but I don't want to make a fifty country long list, most of which most people never hear about unless something truly horrible happens. And even then we only hear what the media chose to highlight. How often in 2006 did you hear about the average 70 violent deaths a day? Or 2007 the 60 violent deaths a day? Or the 35 a day we average today? (For those wondering we had only 22 a day in 2004 and 18 a day in 2003, we are matching 2005 death levels at present)
(FYI:Violent deaths refers to bombings, executions and suicide attacks only, not simple murders which would push the count even higher)


But ASOIF, there are plenty of places where things are peaceful, even in the 7 Kingdom's. The Vale and Dorne have both stayed out of it. The Stormlands saw no battles except the Seige of Storm's End. The Marchs and the Reach are fine as well. It's the Riverland, the area around King's Landing, the North and the area near Lanceport.

However all the PoV's are in this area so we get an overemphasis on the violence which is quite horrible to be sure.

Back to the thread

I think Blackadder was referring to Prince Viserys.
I was thank you


oh, i never actually that could you explain in a bit more detail (also how have the helped the second child, if he is who i think he is
:smallconfused:

Ok your asking why Viserys got aid? Alright here's a rundown
The thing was, when the Targaryen were overthrown, Martell sister the Princess Elia was murdered by the Lannisters, to be exact by the Mountain. Not only did they killer her but they raped her and murdered her children. At that point Martell vowed vengeance, his brother the Viper wanted to simply declare war right then, but he was smarter and knew with Aerys and Rhaegar dead the other Lords would not put a child King on the throne. So they had to wait, they needed to wait until Viserys got older and see what aid he could raise on his own, which was almost nothing, because he was an arrogant little ****. The Martell's wanted vengence anyway on Robert and Tywin. We find this out from Tyrion and the Princess PoV's.

[Somebloke]

Personally, for me, Brienne is the last straw. Against all possible hope, I want her character- who seems to exist as some sort of cosmic chew-toy for the series- to survive. If Brienne dies, I will throw away the series and place a Gypsy curse on Martin's head.

And we're talking about a character who we last saw about to be executed.

So basically, expect Gypsy curses sometime around the sixth book. Something along the lines of 'you will be struck with boils until you finish the G******m series.'

In fact, I may just do that anyway.

[Gorbash]

Not so

Re-read the Princess end POV again it becomes clear, that Martell has been planning to put a new Tagarian King on the throne since the day his sister died. The only reason the two Targ children are alive is because of Martell and half a dozen others(The Spider and the Merchant) have been keeping them alive for a reason, to retake the throne. For Martell it's both vengence and cold reasoning, that being, the Targarians have been much better rulers than anything the Seven Kingdom's ever had, there are acceptations but they still believe that blood tells and it tells that Targarians are either very good King's or very crazy ones. And even the crazy ones can work out(Baloure the Blessed(SP?)

It's Targaryens, please.


we last saw about to be executed.

Yeah, but she did say something, that's probably going to save her. Or she could have just yelled FHTAGN. I wouldn't put it past Martin lol.

[Pokemaster]

It's Targaryens, please.



Yeah, but she did say something, that's probably going to save her. Or she could have just yelled FHTAGN. I wouldn't put it past Martin lol.

Given the circumstances, I got the impression that she died screaming Jaime's name.

[CurlyKitGirl]

Either that or the name of that sword she has which is the recast version of Ice. Or maybe even just the word Ice itself. Even Lady Stoneheart'd stop the execution even if just temporarily to get the sword back.
But yeah, prolly Jaime.

I think the worst part of the series is that if you don't have enough time it's easy to gt distracted and/or put off.
I've been trying to reread the series for about a month now and thanks to interfering siblings, family and all the things they want me to do for them (nearly always in one of the more confusing or important sections (I swear, they're all pyschic)) and I just get put off.
Still on page 583 of Book the First after about a month.

[Da'Shain]

Anyone else a fanatical Arya fan? I caught myself skimming several times to get to Arya's sections, and had to slow myself down with a break to keep from missing major story developments.

[Mr. Scaly]

Back from vacation with Game of Kings and Storm of Swords under my belt. And I have a few thoughts on why I'm still reading despite everyone i care about dying.

1) this isn't one sided. The monsters fall just as fast as the heroes. Slynt, Lorch, Hoat, Joffrey, Lysa...maybe I'm just being bloody minded but I don't really care whether it's fate, kharma, bad luck or other villains putting paid to the villains of Westeros so long as it's finally happening. Case in point: Red Viper vs Gregor Clegane. A slow agonising death for him. And there are so many more to go.

2) somehow Martin has a gift for making me CARE about people who otherwise wouldn't be important. Trading Cat for Brienne? When I first heard her name I was kind of ticked off, but I'm somewhat fond of her now.

3) My favourite characters are still alive and my favourite family (the Lannisters) are still numerous and strong. When Jaime was made a POV character I nearly squealed.

[Maelstrom]

Lazy, slow slob, but an enormously talented one, I'll give him that.

Can't say I'm looking forward to Dance of Dragons much, as I'll be through that in a day or so...then the wait for the next one begins.

Hmm...maybe this sly b-tard is actually working secretly on the sequels... heh, won't hold my breath, though.

[Innis Cabal]

He'll die before he finishs the series, sad but true

[Mr. Scaly]

He'd better not, that's all I can say. Among other things I'm looking forward to Littlefinger's death way too much.

[Innis Cabal]

You'll get that before he dies.

[Turcano]

Hmm...maybe this sly b-tard is actually working secretly on the sequels... heh, won't hold my breath, though.

Um, is that supposed to be a censored "bastard?" Because b-tard means... something else.

[EvilElitest]

i found the moral of those books. But sadly, it isn't suited to these forums, if you want to hear PM. It is the true moral of the stories however
from
EE

[Mr. Scaly]

Nothing good, I'll bet.

Quick question. Why is this kind of gritty, darker kind of story so popular these days?

[EvilElitest]

Nothing good, I'll bet.

Quick question. Why is this kind of gritty, darker kind of story so popular these days?

well, the thing is these books aren't really dark and edgy, they are more realistic. Martin is popular because he simply doesn't use the worst cliches and instead runs his books on the basis of historical fiction in terms of consistency, plot and world devolptment. I view it as the anti eragon
from
EE

[The_JJ]

Well that's a sure way to earn points.:smallsmile:

Sorry about the snark, couldn't help.

But yeah, I think the 'er' in darker is more important then the dark.
To all authors I say beat the system, break the cycle, kill Rand, Endor, one of the Fellowship (for reals), Luke, Hayden Christian a charactor. And Hayden Christian, or at least his acting career. Premptivly.

How in hell did I get to here from there?

[EvilElitest]

i blame the Others.
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[Gavin Sage]

well, the thing is these books aren't really dark and edgy, they are more realistic. Martin is popular because he simply doesn't use the worst cliches and instead runs his books on the basis of historical fiction in terms of consistency, plot and world devolptment. I view it as the anti eragon
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While perhaps realistic on the micro-scale, Martin begins to loose that claim with me. Noting the short comings of idealism is fairly realistic. Martin however seems to take perverse joy in taking idealistic characters and raping them up the arse with swords. (Just wait this will happen literally sooner or later...)

He sets it up idealistic striving only to rain divine retribution on those fools that dare, dare, not to be total bastards. It rather ceases to be realistic to me once when everyone of any importance has crap and sorrow heaved all over them. The books seem to be reaching the point where "dead, alone, from starvation" would qualify as dignified, and Eddard Stark came out a head of the game.

[EvilElitest]

While perhaps realistic on the micro-scale, Martin begins to loose that claim with me. Noting the short comings of idealism is fairly realistic. Martin however seems to take perverse joy in taking idealistic characters and raping them up the arse with swords. (Just wait this will happen literally sooner or later...)

He sets it up idealistic striving only to rain divine retribution on those fools that dare, dare, not to be total bastards. It rather ceases to be realistic to me once when everyone of any importance has crap and sorrow heaved all over them. The books seem to be reaching the point where "dead, alone, from starvation" would qualify as dignified, and Eddard Stark came out a head of the game.

Except the total bastards tend to suffer as well. I mean, all of the idealistic characters keep dying because they do stupid stuff. Idealism, as history proves only gets you so fair. That being said, he isn't simply going "crush all ideal happy characters" because the bad guys go through the same crap. Cerci's fate happens for the same reasons as Eddard's, doing stupid things.

And even in a dark realistic world, good things do happen. Rouge, Biter, Hoat, The mountain, Amory Loche and Trwin have been slain. The slaves have been freed. It isn't perfect, but life never is
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[Gavin Sage]

Except the total bastards tend to suffer as well. I mean, all of the idealistic characters keep dying because they do stupid stuff. Idealism, as history proves only gets you so fair. That being said, he isn't simply going "crush all ideal happy characters" because the bad guys go through the same crap. Cerci's fate happens for the same reasons as Eddard's, doing stupid things.

And even in a dark realistic world, good things do happen. Rouge, Biter, Hoat, The mountain, Amory Loche and Trwin have been slain. The slaves have been freed. It isn't perfect, but life never is
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Which I'd say simply illustrates my point. Bad crap happens, but its not terribly realistic (in my mind) for it to happen to as many characters as it happens to in SoFaI. And not as bad as happens. I'm sure there are happy peasants out there, but we don't get to meet them.

The slaves are free sure, but that's Dany there. And she was let us see: sold like a mare, essentially raped nearly nightly, came to love her enforced husband only to loose him and his child to a witch that (so help me if I remember wrong) also has rendered her practically sterile. Plus ample helpings of betrayal.

Sure she has dragons, but unless someone is serving herring they are developing a taste for human steaks. So even those are coming up for their allotted serving of crap and sorrow.

That this happens to bad characters as well as good doesn't help the problem really. Nobody can win, heck hoping for a quick death is pushing things. Life isn't perfect, but cripes it isn't that depressing either.

[Mr. Scaly]

well, the thing is these books aren't really dark and edgy, they are more realistic. Martin is popular because he simply doesn't use the worst cliches and instead runs his books on the basis of historical fiction in terms of consistency, plot and world devolptment. I view it as the anti eragon
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Whilst I like realistic as much as anyone, Song of Fire and Ice seems more...dramatic than realistic. Or maybe cruelly realistic. Off the top of my head I can't recall a single instance past the first half of book one where anyone has a happy moment and just enjoys life without the fear of horrible death.

Let me contrast for a moment.

The Black Talon by Richard Knaak, a more recent Dragonlance novel. Much darker than your average fantasy adventure because it takes place among ogres and the anti-hero is an ogre-elf hybrid. Naturally he has to be completely ruthless to survive but he's not a monster like Gregor, for example. And sure, ogre life is brutal and bloody and usually short but they've got no complaints. There's one scene with a whole crowd of them cheering on bloody and barbaric spectacles in the arena, loving every minute of it.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Martin is pretty realistic yes, but he seems to deliberately focus on the unhappy side of realistic.

[freerangetroll]

I think that is because all the viewpoint or major characters are in the middle of a war. Sure maybe their is an abby of monks somewhere that has avoided the conflict, but that would be the rarity in a land ravaged by war. All of the characters we learn to care about are either A.) fighting a war that spans the whole landmass, or B.) In the middle of political intrigue so thick you couldn't stir it with a powered whisk.

Those aren't exactly situations with "long life expectancy" or "I live happily ever after" stamped on them.

[Mr. Scaly]

Granted but there are still the little things that make life worth living, right? Dany has her dragons and Tyrion had Shae, and both gave them some peace in the chaos.

[freerangetroll]

Granted but there are still the little things that make life worth living, right? Dany has her dragons and Tyrion had Shae, and both gave them some peace in the chaos.


Very true, I just think those would be in the minority in a world ravaged by war. Also, when someone that has it in for you and finds out your soft spot so to speak. Well just ask Tyrion about Shae now.

[Mr. Scaly]

Very true, I just think those would be in the minority in a world ravaged by war. Also, when someone that has it in for you and finds out your soft spot so to speak. Well just ask Tyrion about Shae now.

I wonder what they did to make her say those things?

Incidentally that's why I don't really like Arya anymore. She crossed the fine line between 'precocious but sweet' and 'cruel and psychotic' when she ripped up that girl's doll.

[EvilElitest]

Mr. Scaly, the reason why people aren't enjoying themselves very much is because there is a nine way civil war. I mean, it isn't a book in peace time.
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[Mr. Scaly]

Mr. Scaly, the reason why people aren't enjoying themselves very much is because there is a nine way civil war. I mean, it isn't a book in peace time.
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Oh, there's always some civil war or alien invasion or government conspiracy or legions of of the damned marching through the gates of hell. Life goes on. I'm willing to admit that Cat has no reason to smile but I can't believe that every living person in Westeros is miserable.

[freerangetroll]

Oh, there's always some civil war or alien invasion or government conspiracy or legions of of the damned marching through the gates of hell. Life goes on. I'm willing to admit that Cat has no reason to smile but I can't believe that every living person in Westeros is miserable.

Totally agreed. But we don't care about the farmer who has had a bumper crop year since he isn't one of the viewpoint characters.

[Gavin Sage]

Totally agreed. But we don't care about the farmer who has had a bumper crop year since he isn't one of the viewpoint characters.

Exactly so.

Which is what magnifies the effect at the cost of a bit of realism. Its not that the crap that happens to any one character is unjustified within the story. Its that because we don't have much positive happening to those characters, it creates an exaggerated sense of dismal gloom.

To make a comparasion and if not the best then its the only one that comes to mind.... The Dresden Files. In it some pretty gruesome things happen. Most often to people we meet after they are corpse but also including some fairly substanial characters. At the same time though aside from the hero winning, we have things like warm family scenes. A character gets over, or at least puts aside the crap that happens to them. There is good to balance against to bad thus in my mind there is a more realistic reflection of life.

You can justify the dark and gritty certainly, but there are limits beyond which realistic cannot apply anymore. Simply because the illusion of relatable normality becomes harder to maintain. This is a subjective perception however I'll give you.

[Mr. Scaly]

Totally agreed. But we don't care about the farmer who has had a bumper crop year since he isn't one of the viewpoint characters.

The sad part is that with the war, flooding and winter comings farmers have been doing pretty badly too. :smallwink: A small cameo of someone enjoying life every now and then would help though.

[freerangetroll]

The sad part is that with the war, flooding and winter comings farmers have been doing pretty badly too. :smallwink: A small cameo of someone enjoying life every now and then would help though.


Here is some happy! I just got a job that pays three times what my current one does. Always knew that degree would come in handy.

Although the moving cross country part is kind of rough.

[EvilElitest]

Oh, there's always some civil war or alien invasion or government conspiracy or legions of of the damned marching through the gates of hell. Life goes on. I'm willing to admit that Cat has no reason to smile but I can't believe that every living person in Westeros is miserable.

well most of them (90%) are peastants so they can't be happy. The nobles are involved with the war, so they aren't very happy. The rangers have an invasion happening they can't be happy. Everybody else knows taht winter is coming.

The silent monks were happy through
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[Elhann]

The sad part is that with the war, flooding and winter comings farmers have been doing pretty badly too. :smallwink: A small cameo of someone enjoying life every now and then would help though.

I'd say there are a couple characters that ARE enjoying life... for now.

Not PoV characters, but not competely irrelevant: (Storm and Feast spoilers, read at your own risk)

Euron Greyjoy. Elder brother is dead, his nephew is either dead or captive in the Dreadfort, has a magic horn...

The late lord Frey. Sure, bandits are hanging his men and children right an left, but he has like a bajillion of them, and now House Frey rules the Riverlands.
Roose Bolton, as his house is now the head house in the North, and most of the other houses are officially "extinct" (Stark, Cerwyn, Hornwood) or with good reasons to stay calm (Umber, Mormont, Karstark, Manderly). It's a pity Euron doesn't care a bit about Theon's fate, but having some ironmen raiding the west coast doesn't seem too bad.

And, of course, Littlefinger. Besides Cat's death, which I don't think he planned, his plans are developing quite nicely. At the very least, he is in a good position to control Arryn's Vale for quite a bit.
Since you get his manipulative bastardity shining in most of Sansa's Feast chapters, I'd count that as a cameo.

Of course, I have no real hopes of any of them being still happy when all ends. Actually, besides the first one, who I don't really care about at all, and the last one, who at least has style, I hope the rest end as bad as possible.

Other than that, I don't think many non-noble people in Arryn's vale or Dorne are suffering the war that much. Being dirt poor and not particularly happy, OK. But if you compare them to the Riverlands folk, they're in heaven. It is just that no PoV character cares about them.

[Jerthanis]

I think it's a little disingenuous to claim no one is happy in all of the books. When Arya left Hot Pie behind with the people at the river, they were pretty well self-sustaining and coping pretty well. I could be forgetting the part where they're all bum-raped with dull swords, but I'm reasonably sure that never happens.

The thing that gets to me is how bad everyone in the books is at political intrigue who isn't Littlefinger. If just one character had any political foresight, the civil war would have never broken out. Perhaps that's what Martin is going for, showing extremely flawed characters making a mess of everything.

Spoiled for death discussion

I'd like to point out that I haven't yet been surprised by a character death in a Song of Ice and Fire, except for the Mountain, who I thought would survive the poison. I haven't been surprised partly because I'm familiar with writing conventions. Martin doesn't escape writing conventions, but he does manage to obfuscate how he uses them.

I was honestly relieved when Robb and company were killed, because it meant that the North was no longer in rebellion, and that front of the war could calm down. I actually was more upset when Tywin died, because even though he deserved it 9 times over, he was the best man for the job of finally ending the war.

You see, the reason I don't like the Starks is because on the outside they claim to be the type of people I tend to like in fiction, honorable, trustworthy, and dedicated to the service of their people... but in reality they're naive, gullible and selfishly guarding their own stupid pride. Eddard knew, when he actively decided to cause a war that winter is coming. He knew that war would cause famine in the last days before a winter of unknown length when food stores were critical. But even knowing that, he was unwilling to compromise his "honor" even if it would mean the deaths of untold thousands. That is why I hate the Stark brand of honor, and why I was glad when Robb died. Because he has the same kind of honor that his father had.

The Lannisters have their own problems, but if I don't see anyone acting honorably, I'll be glad to root for the ones who think practically.

[Mr. Scaly]

I'd like to point out that poor and dirt grubbing doesn't necessarily mean unhappy...whicha ctually cheers me up a bit. Okay, I've changed my mind. Life in Westeros isn't so horribly depressing as I thought so long as you keep your head down and stay away from the monsters.

Jerthanis, good to know that there are other fans of the Lannisters out there.

[EvilElitest]

I don't think the Mountain is dead, there is taht giant warrior of Cerci taht qubur made

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[Turcano]

I don't think the Mountain is dead, there is taht giant warrior of Cerci taht qubur made

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Of course, this is where Terry Pratchett would remark, "For a given value of dead."

[SmartAlec]

Prophecy is one of the things that gives me some hope when reading. Prophecies generally come true in this world, and it's been prophecised through green dreams, visions and such that the Others will be fought, and that the Starks will return to Winterfell.

[Gavin Sage]

Prophecy is one of the things that gives me some hope when reading. Prophecies generally come true in this world, and it's been prophecised through green dreams, visions and such that the Others will be fought, and that the Starks will return to Winterfell.

Strictly speaking Bran though has already had his heaping of crap and sorrow though. Thus assuming he's the eventual Stark in Winterfell it would still hold the pattern.

(Given that Rickard hasn't been a POV I consider him dead meat walking. Arya seems unlikely though loosely possible though. Femminist notions seemed to have been stomped on pretty hard though to reiterate the medieval feel. Oh and Jon isn't a Stark.)

[Mr. Scaly]

Question.

Earlier people were saying that Jon is really a Targaryen or something to that effect. 'The dragon has three heads' and all that. Where does it ever say that? I'm half way through Feast of Crows mind you, but the closest thing I saw to that was that he's related to Arthur Dayne.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Question.

Earlier people were saying that Jon is really a Targaryen or something to that effect. 'The dragon has three heads' and all that. Where does it ever say that? I'm half way through Feast of Crows mind you, but the closest thing I saw to that was that he's related to Arthur Dayne.

Answer!

I believe theory says, if I've heard it correctly, that Ned Stark's younger sister, whose name escapes me for some reason, had the kid of Daenery's dead brother, whose name also escapes me.

Ned claimed Jon as his own bastard son in order to prevent Robert or others from killing him.

I think that's right, anyway.

[SmartAlec]

Question.

Earlier people were saying that Jon is really a Targaryen or something to that effect. 'The dragon has three heads' and all that. Where does it ever say that? I'm half way through Feast of Crows mind you, but the closest thing I saw to that was that he's related to Arthur Dayne.

The books never actually come out and say it, but there are many, many, many hints.

This link should give the details: http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/mlarchives/faq/jon.html

There are even more details that correlate with the third possibility in that analysis. Ned sees Jon joining the Night's Watch as a answer to a lot of problems - and that fits with the third possibility (because Jon joining the Night's Watch means he loses all ties to family, and thus can't be considered a Targaryen). When Ned so adamantly defends Daenerys against the Council's plans to assassinate her, he is setting a precedent that might save Jon, in the case of potential future discovery.


Strictly speaking Bran though has already had his heaping of crap and sorrow though. Thus assuming he's the eventual Stark in Winterfell it would still hold the pattern.

It could very easily be Sansa, of course.

Storm of Swords and Feast for Crows spoilers coming up:

One of Bran's more curious dreams involves three shadows that surround his sisters, Arya and Sansa both. A shadow with a dog's head, smelling of ash (the Hound - he impacted Arya's life when he killed Micah the butcher's boy and later when he kidnapped her from the Brotherhood without Banners, and Sansa's all throughout her stay in King's landing), a golden shadow armoured like the sun (assumed to be Jaime Lannister; he was to be exchanged for the girls), and curiously, looming over those two, an armoured giant made of stone, with nothing inside his visor except darkness and black blood (Ser Gregor, for sure).

But here's the curious thing - Unlike Jaime and the Hound, the Mountain that Rides has had almost nothing to do with Sansa or Arya. And his loss of head and poisoning happened very recently, in the series. The fact that the Mountain looms over the other two shadows in the dream suggests that Gregor is in some way a larger threat to either of them, but he's yet to affect either Sansa or Arya significantly.

Worryingly, though, there's a strong possibility (mentioned earlier) that Gregor's Not Quite Dead. And the old woman of High Heart speaks a prophecy concerning Sansa.

“I dreamt of a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs, and later I dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow.”

The purple serpents are likely the stones in Sansa's hairnet at Joffrey's wedding feast, which pretty much confirms it's Sansa she's talking about. The second part could well be Sansa ripping Young Robert Arryn's doll apart during her stay in the Eyrie, when he smashes her ice castle - but given Bran's earlier dream that hints of Ser Gregor being a threat to both sisters, and that it's possible Sansa will be returning to Winterfell if Littlefinger's plan works, maybe the 'ice castle' is Winterfell, and Sansa and Gregor's paths will cross there.

[Gorbash]

The books never actually come out and say it, but there are many, many, many hints.

And precisely because 90% of the people on internet are so adamant that Jon is, in fact, son of Rhaegar and Lyena, is my opinion that he isn't. If at some point is discovered that he is their son, most of people would go: "Well, that was expected." And for that reason, I believe, Martin will not do that. He'll probably shock us by revealing that he's son of Ned's brother Benjen and their sister Lyanna. After all, that also makes sense - Benjen joined Night Watch (out of shame perhaps?), Ned's hiding his true origins so he wouldn't be seen as a monstrosity and his family shame etc. But the main reason being that Martin never does what's expected.

[Gavin Sage]

And precisely because 90% of the people on internet are so adamant that Jon is, in fact, son of Rhaegar and Lyena, is my opinion that he isn't. If at some point is discovered that he is their son, most of people would go: "Well, that was expected." And for that reason, I believe, Martin will not do that. He'll probably shock us by revealing that he's son of Ned's brother Benjen and their sister Lyanna. After all, that also makes sense - Benjen joined Night Watch (out of shame perhaps?), Ned's hiding his true origins so he wouldn't be seen as a monstrosity and his family shame etc. But the main reason being that Martin never does what's expected.

That's funny, if not possible.

[EvilElitest]

Wait, but Gregor already affected teh stark girls lives. he directly effected Arya when he captured her, and indirectly effected Sansa by acting against Tyrion

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[Mr. Scaly]

So the real question becomes 'is Martin the kind of guy to shred his own world just to surprise/disappoint everyone whose been reading it?'

On a side note, Cersei is an IDIOT! I can honestly say, out of all the multi-dimensional characters she's the only one who hasn't garnered a dollop of sympathy from me.

[SmartAlec]

Wait, but Gregor already affected teh stark girls lives. he directly effected Arya when he captured her, and indirectly effected Sansa by acting against Tyrion


I dunno; Sansa was well away with Littlefinger by then. Gregor killing Oberyn Martell didn't change her situation in the slightest. Arya maybe, but Arya serves under a succession of masters during her stay in Harrenhal and none of them showed up in the dream either.

I cautiously expect more to come.

As for Cersei, yes, she's an idiot alright. Martin has a curious knack of taking characters who I hated and turning them into characters I like (Jaime), but I get the feeling Cersei was meant to be hated, or at least pitied.

[Elhann]

As for Cersei, yes, she's an idiot alright. Martin has a curious knack of taking characters who I hated and turning them into characters I like (Jaime), but I get the feeling Cersei was meant to be hated, or at least pitied.

In some ways, Catelyn and Cersei are similar. Both of them try to look after their children, and Westeros would be probably a better place if they didn't open their mouths.
IMHO, Catelyn is meant to be pitied, while Cersei is too much of a bitch to inspire anything but hatred. Compare them:

-Catelyn makes horrible mistakes, but she isn't looking for personal gain. She respects the law, even if that will end badly for her (see Tyrion's abduction)
-Cersei makes horrible mistakes, most of them for personal gain. If there are any laws between her and power... well (remember what she did to get rid of Robert)

-The Stark kids are described in a possitive way. Robb is honorable as his father, Sansa (even if she is as bright as a brick) is a charming pretty girl, Arya is strong-willed, Bran is a kind gentle boy, and Rickon is too young to count. Catelyn thinks about having a sixth child with her beloved husband.
-While Tommen and Myrcella are nice children, they are far from compensating for Joffrey's actions. Oh, and the thought of Cersei having one child from Robert is laughable at best.

-Yes, Catelyn doesn't like Jon or Theon.
-And still, Catelyn is a thousand times better than how Cersei treats Tyrion. From the moment he was but a baby.

The fact that we get Cersei's reasons in Feast, comparing her to Jaime, doesn't help her cause.

[SmartAlec]

IMHO, Catelyn is meant to be pitied.

Well, not only does Martin take characters I hate and change them, the opposite is true. By the end of A Feast for Crows, I think dislike for Catelyn is greater than pity for her, given what she does:

Has Brienne hanged, that is.

[Gorbash]

Has Brienne hanged, that is.

Well we don't know if that really happened, she did get to say something before that.

[SmartAlec]

Whichever way the cliffhanger goes, my feelings towards the character have been altered towards the 'hate' end of the spectrum, and it will take a fair amount to shift it back.

[DraPrime]

Well, not only does Martin take characters I hate and change them, the opposite is true. By the end of A Feast for Crows, I think dislike for Catelyn is greater than pity for her, given what she does:

Has Brienne hanged, that is.

Watching your son get killed in front of you, getting killed, and then being ressurected tends to have drastic changes on people. Sometimes for the worse.

[SmartAlec]

Watching your son get killed in front of you, getting killed, and then being ressurected tends to have drastic changes on people. Sometimes for the worse.

Granted. But at the end of A Storm of Swords, it actually looks like the Brotherhood without Banners are trying to help Catelyn avenge Robb's death, Robin Hood-style. That's a cool, if grim, note to end on. In A Feast for Crows, it becomes clear that isn't what's happening - the Brotherhood have become a rather bloodthirsty band under Catelyn's influence. That's bad enough. Big let-down. I miss Lord Beric. But on top of it all, to have her order the execution of one of the few 'good' people left out there - one that might well have saved an inn full of young people from the remnants of the Brave Companions not a few days ago and, ironically, the one that has been faithful to her commands to that point - I had to shake my head and think, 'dammit, Catelyn...'

As I said, it's Martin reversing opinions, and funnily enough it's through Brienne again. It's almost as if Brienne is portrayed as a sympathetic underdog character all throughout aFoC just so Catelyn can kill her and cement her status as Crazy Dead Woman. And for me, it worked.

Before I forget - Podrick, too! Come on! There are few more innocent and endearing characters than Pod in the series.

[Mr. Scaly]

I think it's funny how Cat and Cersei are becoming more and more alike.

By now both don't give a damn for the laws of the kingdom and are pursuing their own interests, against what's best for Westeros. Both have become sadly unsympathetic partially because of revenge. There's no more foil...they're pretty much copies of each other.

[EvilElitest]

the thing with Cerci is complicated. With Jamie, he is an awful person, but you like it when you see things from his point of view. With his father, even through he isn't a POV character, you come to admire, if not like him
However, with Cerci, the point of seeing things from her view point isn't to make you like her, it is the only way the reader can possible understand her actions in the book. It is a matter of explanation. Many times it is hard for readers to understand the nature of that kind of character, somebody like a Caligulia (i refer to the TV trope) and martine needed to make that clear

Cerci is a character to be pitied

On another note, i pity her, but i admire here for her stubborness. My favorite moment with her was when she punched the High Septon. I think she will have her crowning moment of awesome, even if it is nothing more than snapping that old Septa's neck.


On gregor

ok, Gregor hasn't affected Sansa, but Arya he has, he already did that death match with her in tow

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[warty goblin]

I think it's funny how Cat and Cersei are becoming more and more alike.

By now both don't give a damn for the laws of the kingdom and are pursuing their own interests, against what's best for Westeros. Both have become sadly unsympathetic partially because of revenge. There's no more foil...they're pretty much copies of each other.

You know, until the last time I read A Feast for Crows I would have disagreed with you in the strongest possible terms. It having been a few years since I last read the middle two books however, I've gained a bit of emotional distance from their events, and realized just how clear these parallels are.

Both have lost/nearly lost children, and are willing to do anything to protect their remaining offspring. Catylen might be a bit more rational about it, but she's still willing to kill a harmless simpleton in cold blood even knowing that it won't save her son. Not exactly the stuff of heroes, that. Cersai meanwhile is willing to torture innocent men half to death and sleep with anybody she feels neccessary. On the other hand she clearly is disturbed by doing so, which is far more than Catylen ever shows.

That said I think there is still an important way in which they are foils for each other. Catelyn after all tries and fails to save her son and herself, while Cersai succeeds in keeping Tommon alive, albeit quite possibly at the expense of her own life. Complete and utter ruthlessness might work in other words, but it has it's own costs.

[Mr. Scaly]

True that. Though whether either will live through the next book or not is a toss up still.