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Crow
2008-07-09, 11:39 PM
Has anyone looked at the Cleric Daily called "Seal of Binding"? Maybe this is old news, but WOW.

If you use the Demi-God power that gives you regeneration, you're going to kill anything you can hit and only need 1 attack roll.

CockroachTeaParty
2008-07-09, 11:43 PM
That looks like a nasty combo, but it would certainly be pretty boring for everyone else in the party, not to mention the DM. Still, you could only do that once a day, and it's not guaranteed.

mikeejimbo
2008-07-09, 11:44 PM
Yeah, it's been mentioned. But thanks for reminding me. I'm playing a Cleric. :smallbiggrin:

Titanium Dragon
2008-07-10, 12:37 AM
Yeah, its been mentioned. Its really overpowered. It should probably not work as written; it is way too good. Even slapping a "no regaining hit points" clause on its sustain probably leaves it as too powerful an ability.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-07-10, 01:12 AM
Yeah, its been mentioned. Its really overpowered. It should probably not work as written; it is way too good. Even slapping a "no regaining hit points" clause on its sustain probably leaves it as too powerful an ability.

Too good? It works once per day and requires you to be in the high Epics already. I'm willing to let it slide for someone who is actively working on becoming a god :smallbiggrin:

mikeejimbo
2008-07-10, 01:18 AM
The only real problem is if you use it against a monster that the DM planned on being an epic battle, just between him and your party.

That's a Solo monster, right? I don't know much about DMing 4e, just bashing stuff with hammers.

Colmarr
2008-07-10, 01:21 AM
I forget the exact details of the power, but I recall hearing about 1-shotting Orcus with it. That might be an exaggeration, but it always struck me that the obvious answer from a DM perspective is:

1. Push/pull/slide the cleric out of range (which automatically ends the power) or

2. Make the cleric so busy that he can't spend the action to maintain it.

It's an amazing power against Solos, but not even all solos are encountered alone.

mikeejimbo
2008-07-10, 01:25 AM
You can't One-Shot anything with it, because you have to maintain it for several rounds. :P

But I kid. Whoever killed Orcus with it must have rolled a natural 20, though.

Colmarr
2008-07-10, 01:44 AM
You can't One-Shot anything with it, because you have to maintain it for several rounds. :P

Ahh, but I was using "one-shot" in the sense of "I don't need any help and I'll only use this one power".

I am thinking of the right power, aren't I? The one with no save that prevents the target from taking actions?

mikeejimbo
2008-07-10, 01:52 AM
Yep, that is the one. But it's still extremely unlikely you would hit.

Frost
2008-07-10, 05:49 AM
It would actually be an incredibly crappy power if it had a no regaining hit points clause, because you have less HP then any monster you will ever face after getting the power that isn't a minion.


Yep, that is the one. But it's still extremely unlikely you would hit.

Um? So if no one can ever hit Orcus, then isn't he immortal, of wait, you can hit Orcus really easily. He never said he was a level 1 Cleric, or the minimum level with the power, he could be talking about level 30.

Drager
2008-07-10, 06:22 AM
You can't kill Orcus with this before hitting the maximum duration of the power. The maths doesn't add up :). Still you can seriously weaken him.

mikeejimbo
2008-07-10, 06:59 AM
Um? So if no one can ever hit Orcus, then isn't he immortal, of wait, you can hit Orcus really easily. He never said he was a level 1 Cleric, or the minimum level with the power, he could be talking about level 30.

Even at level 30, though, I don't see how you could do it.

Assuming you put an 18 into Wisdom at level 1 and increasing it at every opportunity, you'll have a 28 by the end. That's a +9.

The attack has the implement keyword, so if you use the best Holy Symbol you can get, that's another +6. We're up to 15.

Now add half your level. Let's assume it's at level 30. That's another +15, so we have a +30 to hit. That's decent!

But Orcus has a Will defense of 49. Barring more buffs, you'd still need a 19 or 20 (10% chance) to hit.

The Mormegil
2008-07-10, 07:38 AM
Hmmm... The demigod's regeneration is (if I don't recall it wrong) based on your highest ability score, right? That means that, since if your highest ability score is Wisdom it simply nullifies part of the damage (also based on Wis) and let you take 2d10 damages per round, to nullify it completely you would need an ability score that has a modifier 20 points higher that your Wis modifier. How is that possile? And even if it was, how could you hit anything with that Wis score? And that's not talking about monsters with regeneration... Even then, it's a good power on solos since, if you hit, you soften him up a lot using your other healing powers (minor actions) to heal yourself. It could actually work well even on Orcus, you know, if you can hit him (not impossible, I'm sure there were other ways to improve one's hit...).
Not an awfully broken power, anyway. Cascade of Blades is worse, for what I'm concerned.

mikeejimbo
2008-07-10, 08:01 AM
Hmmm... The demigod's regeneration is (if I don't recall it wrong) based on your highest ability score, right?

The regeneration is equal to your highest ability score not modifier. With a 28 Wis, you're healing 28 damage per round, and taking a maximum of 29. (Average 20)

Trog
2008-07-10, 08:58 AM
Did anyone else prior to opening this thread think: "Poop Golem that deals Radiant damage" :smalltongue:

Charity
2008-07-10, 09:05 AM
Nah I thought he'd been eating too much swiss cheese.

This Cleric ability is good for Solo monsters, I'm not sure it is broken, and it does take a while to work, but it is dull as heck for everyone else so it is to be avoided as far as I'm concerned.

Orcus is soooo nasty I'd be suprised if he could be defeated without major recorse to beardy Stilton anyhow. His defences are very high making his effective HP's astronomical.

Tengu
2008-07-10, 09:10 AM
Did someone say cheese? (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1040811)

Blade Cascade - stupidly overpowered.

Charity
2008-07-10, 09:37 AM
Yes and there is also the infinate reroll cheese with the demigod epic destiny capstone power along with the elven accuracy.
(use up all your encounter powers except Elven accuracy, then use it to re-roll any miss on blade cascade, then it refreshes, then do it again etc.)

but it's http://www.dairycrest.co.uk/images/main_product1.jpg we are discussing.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-07-10, 09:43 AM
Did someone say cheese? (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1040811)

Blade Cascade - stupidly overpowered.

Hey, wait, someone here knows statistics. Run the maths here and see what the probability of one-shotting Orcus is with this build. Since it seems like you need to hit 55 times in a row to do that, I'm pretty sure that the probability is low.

Plus, if you fail to one-shot him, you get to have a Touch of Death to the face.
Touch of Death (standard; recharge) ✦ Necrotic
Reach 4; +33 vs. Fortitude; the target is reduced to 0 hit points (resistance or immunity to necrotic damage does not apply).
Miss:The target takes necrotic damage equal to its bloodied value.

Plus, getting next to him results in a Tail Lash to the face.
+36 vs. AC; 2d8 + 12 damage, and the target is stunned until the end of Orcusís next turn and is knocked prone.

So yeah, I think Orcus is going to be OK :smalltongue:

Gralamin
2008-07-10, 09:48 AM
Then again, Orcus has the Leader role, meaning your not supposed to fight him alone. So while your doing this, his minions/allies will be trying to maul you.

MammonAzrael
2008-07-10, 10:13 AM
Hey, wait, someone here knows statistics. Run the maths here and see what the probability of one-shotting Orcus is with this build. Since it seems like you need to hit 55 times in a row to do that, I'm pretty sure that the probability is low.

Plus, if you fail to one-shot him, you get to have a Touch of Death to the face.
Touch of Death (standard; recharge) ✦ Necrotic
Reach 4; +33 vs. Fortitude; the target is reduced to 0 hit points (resistance or immunity to necrotic damage does not apply).
Miss:The target takes necrotic damage equal to its bloodied value.

Plus, getting next to him results in a Tail Lash to the face.
+36 vs. AC; 2d8 + 12 damage, and the target is stunned until the end of Orcusís next turn and is knocked prone.

So yeah, I think Orcus is going to be OK :smalltongue:

No, you still only need one attack roll, because the rest of the damage is simply sustaining the power, after it hit. So all you really need is to insure that it'll hit and you're done. Plague of Doom and Nimbus of Doom are both Cleric powers that can help lower Orcus' Will Defense, Divine Oracle Lets you roll twice, and that just in-class help. You can further help by going Elf, and your allies can help lower the defense/increase your to-hit as well.

And it's Ranged 10, so you aren't automatically nailed by a Touch of Death or Tail Lash.

EDIT: Oh, and on the OP, yeah, the ability is crazy awesome against Solos, but only ok against the vast majority of what you'll fight. While it could use a bit of toning down (only if you go Demi-God though), I think DMs that actually have players that wind up with this will be able to manage alright (like adding enough minions or terrain features or whatever to ensure the lockdown doesn't happen for more than a few rounds at the most.)

Tengu
2008-07-10, 10:21 AM
Hey, wait, someone here knows statistics. Run the maths here and see what the probability of one-shotting Orcus is with this build. Since it seems like you need to hit 55 times in a row to do that, I'm pretty sure that the probability is low.

Plus, if you fail to one-shot him, you get to have a Touch of Death to the face.
Touch of Death (standard; recharge) ✦ Necrotic
Reach 4; +33 vs. Fortitude; the target is reduced to 0 hit points (resistance or immunity to necrotic damage does not apply).
Miss:The target takes necrotic damage equal to its bloodied value.

Plus, getting next to him results in a Tail Lash to the face.
+36 vs. AC; 2d8 + 12 damage, and the target is stunned until the end of Orcusís next turn and is knocked prone.

So yeah, I think Orcus is going to be OK :smalltongue:

Someone in the previous thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82552) where this build was mentioned already addressed both of these points. Feel free to look it up - I am not going myself, though, since roughly 60% of this thread is anti-4e folks flaming. Just as it was with most of the early 4e threads.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-07-10, 10:22 AM
No, you still only need one attack roll, because the rest of the damage is simply sustaining the power, after it hit. So all you really need is to insure that it'll hit and you're done. Plague of Doom and Nimbus of Doom are both Cleric powers that can help lower Orcus' Will Defense, Divine Oracle Lets you roll twice, and that just in-class help. You can further help by going Elf, and your allies can help lower the defense/increase your to-hit as well.

And it's Ranged 10, so you aren't automatically nailed by a Touch of Death or Tail Lash.

:smallconfused: I was talking about the Orcusslayer which relies upon Blade Cascade and Imperiling Strike to kill Orcus. What are you talking about?

MammonAzrael
2008-07-10, 10:48 AM
:smallconfused: I was talking about the Orcusslayer which relies upon Blade Cascade and Imperiling Strike to kill Orcus. What are you talking about?

I thought you were referring to killing Orcus with the Seal of Binding. :smalltongue: Oops.

But since you're referring to Blade Cascade, while it's true, it's also be pretty thoroughly gone over and polished, and the chances of it really failing are surprisingly low.

Helgraf
2008-07-10, 11:52 AM
No, you still only need one attack roll, because the rest of the damage is simply sustaining the power, after it hit. So all you really need is to insure that it'll hit and you're done. Plague of Doom and Nimbus of Doom are both Cleric powers that can help lower Orcus' Will Defense, Divine Oracle Lets you roll twice, and that just in-class help. You can further help by going Elf, and your allies can help lower the defense/increase your to-hit as well.

And, oh yeah, not getting killed by Orcus or Orcus' allies in all those rounds you're sustaining it - because they're not going to divert any attention to you, right?

Oslecamo
2008-07-10, 01:06 PM
And, oh yeah, not getting killed by Orcus or Orcus' allies in all those rounds you're sustaining it - because they're not going to divert any attention to you, right?

Since Orcus is forced to don't have allies(solo) and it's godlike powers have been crippled to be unable to one shot players, and the cleric has plenty of healing and defensive powers, I say surviving those turns isn't that hard.

RukiTanuki
2008-07-10, 01:19 PM
This reminds me of the Super Metroid Boss "Draygon", who could be defeated by letting him grab Samus, then grappling onto an exposed electrical outlet, electrocuting both of you. At that stage in the game, you were likely to have enough energy tanks to outlast him (though my first time ever, I did end up running on the fumes of my reserve tanks...)

A bit more on topic: It looks like this is a good reason for epic solo opponents to never fight alone, lest they fall prey to The Zero Sacrifice. (Sorry, video games on the mind today.)

Starsinger
2008-07-10, 01:20 PM
Since Orcus is forced to don't have allies(solo) and it's godlike powers have been crippled to be unable to one shot players, and the cleric has plenty of healing and defensive powers, I say surviving those turns isn't that hard.

To quote the monster manual "Orcus is one of the most powerful creatures that adventurers can ever hope to defeat. Unfortunately for them, he is rarely encountered alone." Then, on the encounters listing, the standard/recommend Orcus encounter is "1 Orcus (Level 33 solo brute). 2 Atropals (level 28 elite brute). 8 Lich Vestiges (level 26 minion)." So if you fight Orcus by himself, that's the DM's fault.

Tengu
2008-07-10, 03:20 PM
At least Atropals aren't creepy, floating undead fetuses anymore. If they were, they'd steal the spotlight from Orcus in this encounter by being much more disturbing than him.

Shades of Gray
2008-07-10, 04:11 PM
Did anyone else prior to opening this thread think: "Poop Golem that deals Radiant damage" :smalltongue:

Me actually.:smallbiggrin:

Flying Elephant
2008-07-10, 04:19 PM
Did anyone else prior to opening this thread think: "Poop Golem that deals Radiant damage" :smalltongue:
Yup. I was hoping there was a sort of cleric spell that made dropped items have radiant damage traps on them.

Wait, the guy who posted above me to agree as well has an elephant avatar too! Ahh!

Frost
2008-07-10, 04:40 PM
So standard breakdown is something like:

Cleric build: Elf Angelic Avenger Demigod Cleric: Wisdom bonus +11, half level +15, Implement +6, +1 Channel Divinity, +4 Action Point from Angelic Path, +2 Hallowed Ground

+39, and one reroll, this is without the actions of teammates.

Cleric: I grant myself regen 32, Hallowed Ground, action point and lockdown Orcus.

Wizard: I kill the 6 minions.

Fighter/Ranger/Rogue/Paladin/Warlock/Whatever: I chain stun one of the Atropals. I chain stun the other.

Cleric: Awh Man, you guys could have at least let a minion wail on me or something.

mikeejimbo
2008-07-10, 04:46 PM
How did you get a Wisdom of 32?

Dan_Hemmens
2008-07-10, 04:55 PM
Except that the Cleric still has a 50% chance of missing (even if you did somehow manage to get 32 Wisdom), the Wizard similarly will miss some of the Minions, and the "Chain Stun" on the Atropals is likely to screw up long before you manage to plink Orcus to death at 3D10 damage a round.

Plus every minion you kill rises as an Abyssal Ghoul Myrmidon.

Frost
2008-07-10, 06:14 PM
Except that the Cleric still has a 50% chance of missing (even if you did somehow manage to get 32 Wisdom), the Wizard similarly will miss some of the Minions, and the "Chain Stun" on the Atropals is likely to screw up long before you manage to plink Orcus to death at 3D10 damage a round.

Plus every minion you kill rises as an Abyssal Ghoul Myrmidon.

And a reroll, and other characters that he can delay to go after like a Paladin to destroy his defenses.

And those "Chain Stuns" consist of two characters attacking every round with an attack that deprives the enemy of one or more turns. Also, they might be AoE.

Wisdom might be 30, but 20 +2 Heroic +2 Paragon +2 Epic +2 from +to alls +2 from Demigod. Okay, so 30, my bad.

erikun
2008-07-10, 07:45 PM
I've noticed that the Demigod path does have a number of potentially broken combos with its abilities, from Seal of Binding + Divine Regeneration, to Blade Cascade + Elven Accuracy + Divine Miracle, to Confusion + Divine Miracle. I'm not sure if a level 26+ PC being able to solo a single creature 1/day is really a bad thing, though.

Frost
2008-07-10, 08:06 PM
I've noticed that the Demigod path does have a number of potentially broken combos with its abilities, from Seal of Binding + Divine Regeneration, to Blade Cascade + Elven Accuracy + Divine Miracle, to Confusion + Divine Miracle. I'm not sure if a level 26+ PC being able to solo a single creature 1/day is really a bad thing, though.

The reason Demigod is "broken" is because if you are making a level 21 character or reaching it, +2 to two stats is the best ability you are going to get.

Comparably, if you are playing a level 30 character, there is nothing better then getting to use an encounter ability endlessly, whether that is an interrupt for infinite rerolls, or an AoE save or stun that you spam every round, or a penalty to your enemies defenses every round, so that everyone else's AoE stuns work.

JaxGaret
2008-07-10, 08:20 PM
The Demigod Epic Destiny is quite powerful, but so are the other three.

erikun
2008-07-10, 08:48 PM
I guess that's true. I haven't really looked at the other epic destinies, although it looks like they're pretty good too. The Archmage basically doubles your HP and allows you to use dailys like mad, while the Deatly Trickster basically doubles all your encounter/dailys and grants you Elven Accuracy 3x/day.

Helgraf
2008-07-10, 10:36 PM
Since Orcus is forced to don't have allies(solo) and it's godlike powers have been crippled to be unable to one shot players, and the cleric has plenty of healing and defensive powers, I say surviving those turns isn't that hard.

You have tragically misinterpreted the rules.

Solos are not, despite their name, ever _required_ to fight alone. If you have the XP budget to give Solos backup, you can give them backup. In fact, a number of "Solos" in the MM have encounter stats where they're not alone - some even have elites as 'backup'.

And as pointed out by Starsinger, Orcus _in particular_ pretty much always has backup.

mikeejimbo
2008-07-10, 10:43 PM
You have tragically misinterpreted the rules.

Solos are not, despite their name, ever _required_ to fight alone. If you have the XP budget to give Solos backup, you can give them backup. In fact, a number of "Solos" in the MM have encounter stats where they're not alone - some even have elites as 'backup'.

And as pointed out by Starsinger, Orcus _in particular_ pretty much always has backup.

While this is 100% true, that Solos often have backup, it does make me wonder why they chose the completely arbitrary name "Solo" for them if it isn't even true.

Colmarr
2008-07-10, 10:47 PM
Because a Solo of the appropriate level is an adequate challenge for the players even when it is encountered alone.

However, DMs should always bear in mind that "adequate" in this case means "suitable to be one of a number of encounters between one extended rest and another without overly high risk of player or party death".

Orcus should never, IMO and clearly also in WotC's opinion, never consitute a merely adequate encounter for your PCs.

SadisticFishing
2008-07-10, 11:08 PM
Why do you people use the "BUT YOU HAVE TO HIT HIM FIRST!" argument on Orcus?

If you can't hit him, then it's not that the power isn't broken, it's that you can't hit him. You shouldn't be fighting him. If you're fighting him, then you should be able to hit. And if you're able to hit with Seal of Binding, you can cripple him with it.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-07-10, 11:32 PM
Why do you people use the "BUT YOU HAVE TO HIT HIM FIRST!" argument on Orcus?

If you can't hit him, then it's not that the power isn't broken, it's that you can't hit him. You shouldn't be fighting him. If you're fighting him, then you should be able to hit. And if you're able to hit with Seal of Binding, you can cripple him with it.

The reason why is that if you fail to hit Orcus with your one-shot-combo, you are in for a world of hurt. This is not a question of "can you hit Orcus" but rather "will you hit Orcus before he makes you a grease spot and then reanimates you into some sort of undead pudding."

And yes, Orcus can potentially one-shot any character, with a rechargeable power. Thus, being able to hit him first is not a trivial question.

Lapak
2008-07-10, 11:46 PM
Unless I've missed something, there's another problem with the Demigod Regeneration/Binding combination: the duration. Not of the Seal of Binding, but of the Regeneration - it's of Encounter duration, which means that it expires after five minutes. At six seconds a round, that's 50 increments averaging around 21 damage, plus the initial damage. Over a thousand, but well below Orcus' total health. He'll have plenty to outlast the Cleric if they continue to sustain it.

It'll take a heavy-duty bite out of him, but it won't put him down.

Crow
2008-07-10, 11:57 PM
Unless I've missed something, there's another problem with the Demigod Regeneration/Binding combination: the duration. Not of the Seal of Binding, but of the Regeneration - it's of Encounter duration, which means that it expires after five minutes. At six seconds a round, that's 50 increments averaging around 21 damage, plus the initial damage. Over a thousand, but well below Orcus' total health. He'll have plenty to outlast the Cleric if they continue to sustain it.

It'll take a heavy-duty bite out of him, but it won't put him down.

So if a fight lasts 6 minutes, do you give all the characters their encounter attack powers back?

I find it funny that people use the "Well it's ok to be able to solo an encounter just once per day.". Maybe that's not untrue, but the flaw in that little quip is that most characters (and classes) don't have that option available to them, unless they go out of their way to obtain the specific ability which lets that happen. Because that ability is unbalanced, and broken when combined with another ability.

Nowhere in the 4th edition design philosophy is a clause which says "Every character should be able to solo an encounter once per day.".

Helgraf
2008-07-11, 12:08 AM
While this is 100% true, that Solos often have backup, it does make me wonder why they chose the completely arbitrary name "Solo" for them if it isn't even true.

It's pretty much a tag - a Solo monster is worth as much as a 5 monster 'standard team' at any given level. Also, Solos as, well, solo monsters, work very well at the low to mid-range of levels; it's really in the epic tier where you start seeing "Solo + x" more commonly - concidentally, about the same time you start seeing powers that might let one one-Shot a solo.

Not a coincidence, in my mind.


So if a fight lasts 6 minutes, do you give all the characters their encounter attack powers back?

No - they haven't taken a short rest. Sucks to be them.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-07-11, 12:08 AM
So if a fight lasts 6 minutes, do you give all the characters their encounter attack powers back?

I find it funny that people use the "Well it's ok to be able to solo an encounter just once per day.". Maybe that's not untrue, but the flaw in that little quip is that most characters (and classes) don't have that option available to them, unless they go out of their way to obtain the specific ability which lets that happen. Because that ability is unbalanced, and broken when combined with another ability.

Nowhere in the 4th edition design philosophy is a clause which says "Every character should be able to solo an encounter once per day.".

No, you need to take a short rest in order to recharge spent encounter powers. The "five minute limit" you see on many encounter powers is there to prevent someone from maintaining a given encounter power for a ludicrous period of time.

As for "solo 1/day" I'd say that no, that's not in the 4e design philosophy, though "Epic characters mean breaking the rules a bit" is. You'll notice that all Epic level characters have powers available to them which violate, in some way or another, restrictions placed upon them before. That is, in fact, the point of being Epic. If for one class combination that is designed for soloing 1/day that is how it wants to break the rules, then that's OK. Clerics can ride around in their Cloud Chariots too while Mr. Orcusslayer sits around hoping his die go well.

At least it hasn't made any encounter trivial.

Crow
2008-07-11, 12:26 AM
Feel free to miss the point =)

Powers are good at epic. But no, they are not meant to break the game.

Lapak
2008-07-11, 12:36 AM
So if a fight lasts 6 minutes, do you give all the characters their encounter attack powers back?
No, because they need a short rest to recover them. The Duration section in the PHB specifically says that encounter powers expire when the players take a short rest OR after five minutes. So if an encounter lasts that long (and this is just about the only way I can think of that it would) then it just sucks to be you.

I suppose I should also note that Orcus has a 20-ranged aura that hits anyone who starts their turn in it for 10 if he's not bloodied, 20 if he is. It's unlikely the regeneration is able to compensate for both effects unless the cleric has enough necrotic resistance to deal with the aura the whole time.

So as good as the combination is, it's not an Orcus-slayer for a couple of different reasons.

Crow
2008-07-11, 02:22 AM
Why does everyone assume this thread is about Orcus????

This thread is about Seal of Binding + Demigod. I haven't seen any argument to prove that this combination isn't broken.

TheOOB
2008-07-11, 02:30 AM
Why does everyone assume this thread is about Orcus????

This thread is about Seal of Binding + Demigod. I haven't seen any argument to prove that this combination isn't broken.

The combination is broken, in a one on one fight, you can kill pretty much anyone without letting them take a turn once you get the combo going.

As a DM, I would probally rule that the damage from that effect can't be healed until the effect ends. It is completely unprecedented by the rules, but it prevents that ungodly combo, and still makes seal of binding awesome.

Truth be told, any stun effect that doesn't enable some chance of escape is broken.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-07-11, 02:40 AM
And a reroll, and other characters that he can delay to go after like a Paladin to destroy his defenses.

And those "Chain Stuns" consist of two characters attacking every round with an attack that deprives the enemy of one or more turns. Also, they might be AoE.

I get what a "chain stun" is, but the point here is that there's a really quite important difference between "A 26th Level Cleric can one-shot Orcus" and "a thirtieth level party, if they burn through a large number of daily powers and have spare Action Points, can potentially beat Orcus if everything goes right for them.