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Conners
2008-07-20, 12:04 PM
I'm having trouble working out how to make good monsters/NPCs with the new 4e system. I think I'm getting the grasp of it, but I'm not sure if my encounters intended are balanced.

Here's the first encounter I intend:
Kobold scouts
A party of five 1st-level characters would be ambushed by twenty kobold minions. When the tables turn to greatly, the remaining minions will flee. This encounter, however, is intended to be easy--for reinforcements arrive.
The second encounter is made up of a 2nd level Elite Soldier, and about 5 to eight 1st level artillery. Here are the stats: Kobold Crossbowman Level 1 Artillery
Small Natural Humanoid 100 XP
Initiative +5 Senses Perception +3; darkvision, low-lightvision
Respect and Fear aura 10; all subordinates within the aura gain a +2 bonus to attack rolls and morale
HP 25; Bloodied 12; 1 Second-wind 6
AC 15; Fortitude 13, Reflex 14, Will 13; see also, “trapsense”.
Speed 6
Action Points 0
:Melee: Claws and Teeth (standard; at-will)
Reach 1; +5 vs. AC; 1d3 damage
:Melee: Spear (standard; at-will)
Reach 1; +5 vs. AC; 1d8 + 1 damage
:Ranged: Crossbow (standard; at-will)
Reach 15/25; +8 vs. AC; 1d10 + 4 damage.
:Reaction: Quick Step (immediate; encounter)
As soon as an enemy enters an adjacent square, a kobold crossbowman can shift one square away from the enemy as an immediate action.
Str 13 (+1) Dex 16 (+3) Wis 11 (--)
Con 13 (+1) Int 10 (--) Chr 9 (-1)
Equipment: Chain shirt, Spear, Crossbow, 30 bolts, dagger.

Sizek the Trapmaster (Monster version) Level 2 Elite Soldier (Leader)
Small Natural Humanoid 250 XP
Initiative +5 Senses Perception +3; darkvision, low-lightvision
Respect and Fear aura 10; all subordinates within the aura gain a +2 bonus to attack rolls and morale
HP 82; Bloodied 41; 1 Second-wind 12
AC 18; Fortitude 17, Reflex 16, Will 16; see also, “trapsense”.
Speed 6
Action Points 1
:Melee: Claws and Teeth (standard; at-will)
Reach 1; +9 vs. AC; 2d3 + 2 damage
:Melee: Spear (standard; at-will)
Reach 1; +9 vs. AC; 1d8 + 3 damage
:Ranged: Crossbow (standard; at-will)
Reach 10/20; +9 vs. AC; 1d6 + 4 damage.
:Thrown: Master’s Spear (standard, encounter)
Reach 5/10; +11 vs. AC; 3d8 + 9 damage
:Melee: Leap of Fury (standard; recharge :4: :5: :6:)
Reach 1; +7 vs. Reflex; basic attack damage, automatically grab the target
Leaping full-on at the enemy, Sizek climbs onto them and begins stabbing away.
Climbing Horror (immediate action; at-will)
Requires grapple with an enemy one or more sizes larger; +7 vs. Reflex; Basic attack damage.
When grappling with an enemy of at least one size larger, Sizek makes a basic attack as an immediate action at the start of the enemy’s turn, until the grapple is ended.
Str 17 (+3) Dex 16 (+3) Wis 12 (+1)
Con 17 (+3) Int 12 (+1) Chr 9 (-1)
Equipment: Chain shirt, 2 Spears, Light crossbow, 15 bolts, dagger.
Trapmaster’s gem.
I intend the second part of the encounter to be hard. Depending on choices the players make earlier, there will also be terrain difficulties. I'll go into this later when the current worry of monster stats is resolved.

So, does this seem an OK sort of encounter (these are the first monsters I've ever made with the 4e system)?

Crow
2008-07-20, 01:01 PM
The first encounter is going to be harder than you think.

The second looks about right, as you are intending it to be tough.

Viruzzo
2008-07-20, 01:52 PM
When you put that many minions together the encounter it's going to be either too hard (lack of controllers/AoE powers) or too easy (2 or more controllers, lots of AoE powers).
The Elite should be ok, obviously a striker-heavy party could take him down too fast since he's alone.

Yakk
2008-07-21, 01:19 PM
A suggestion:

Your party of 5 characters is traveling with 5 other people (human rabble), when the 20 kobold minions and 1 wyrmpriest attack.

Once 10 minions have fallen, they shift away, move, and ready an attack against anyone coming near them. The next turn, they break and run: however, if the wyrmpriest is alive at that time, she uses her mass-buff power (grants a shift and temporary HP), which grants the minions the courage needed to reengage.

If there are 10 or fewer minions left, and the wyrmpriest is dies, the kobolds all break and run.

This encounter has a similar XP budget to the one you described, but it has a built in plot -- plus, the human rabble that the party are with can soak up hits and add drama/tension. Players are rewarded with extra allies in the next fight. Defeating the "leader" also grants the party benefits.

AKA_Bait
2008-07-21, 01:25 PM
What is your party make-up?

Diego
2008-07-21, 03:55 PM
Just a hunch, but the second encounter has the potential to get people dead really fast.

1d10+4 is pretty impressively high damage at first level (Slingers are level 1 artillery who do ... what... 1d6+3? The level 3 Wyrmpriest is only 1d8+3) and at +8 is going to MURDER pcs. Plate+Shield is AC20 meaning 40% hit rate with a +8, meaning 3-4 out of 8 will hit. 3d10+12 is going to have any but the toughest defenders (high Con or toughness) on the ground.

When building these monsters, you need to get out of the 3.5 mindset where monsters follow the same rules as players. Just because player crossbows do 1d10 damage doesn't mean kobold crossbows should. Maybe they are "small" crossbows (same range as regular, but 1d6 base). Maybe they are shoddily constructed. Whatever - the damage and attack bonus is really determined by the level of the monster, the weapons are a mostly cosmetic effect. Ditto defenses.

(There is some precedent for those sorts of damage though - I think Guard Drakes do 1d10+alot and are a level 2 brute. I think their attack bonus is only +6 or so, and they have to be in melee.)

Yakk
2008-07-21, 04:43 PM
(There is some precedent for those sorts of damage though - I think Guard Drakes do 1d10+alot and are a level 2 brute. I think their attack bonus is only +6 or so, and they have to be in melee.)

Brutes have lots of HP and do lots of damage per hit, but low AC and low attack modifiers. That is what makes them Brutes.

Artillery are not brutes. :-)

If you want to build your own monsters, please look at the chapter in the DMG that is about building your own monsters. :-) (Page 184 I think)

Note that the Kobold racial is Shifty (make a shift as a minor action). Your quick step looks like something you invented?

Artillery:
6+6*level+con HP
level+12 AC
level+12 other defenses
highest of (Str, Con) (Dex, Int) (Wis, Cha) pairs is 14 for non-primary attack pair, or 17 with primary attack.

As this is a crossbowman, primary attack will be dex. So, stats might be:
Str: 10
Con: 13 (+2)
Dex: 17 (+3)
Int: 8 (-1)
Wis: 14 (+2)
Cha: 10 (+1)

Defenses:
AC 13, Fort 12, Reflex 14, Will 13

A +8 vs AC is actually right for a level 1 artillery.

Target medium damage for a level 1 artillery is 1d10+3 by the chart -- but we should cut it down a bit, because that range is for level 1 to 3 artillery.

So a possible attack block:
Makeshift Crossbow: Standard Range, +8 vs AC, 1d10+3 damage, 15/30 range, recharge 4,5,6
Short Spear: Standard Melee, +4 vs AC, 1d6+0 damage
Thrown Spear: (3) Standard Range(5/10), +8 vs AC, 1d6+3 damage
Fiddle with Crossbow: Standard Action. Provokes OA in melee range. Causes Makeshift Crossbow to recharge. (used when the target is out of range of the spear, or down to not enough spears)

This provides you with your high damage attack, but it only works sometimes. This reflects the fact we are talking about a level 1 monster in the 1-3 range.

...

Second, monsters don't have any healing surges.

Artillery are units that attempt to fire from range. They do not move that well. They do do good damage, however.

arnoldrew
2008-07-21, 06:21 PM
Second, monsters don't have any healing surges.


I thought they have 1 at heroic level, 2 at paragon level, and 3 at epic level.

Yakk
2008-07-21, 07:49 PM
I thought they have 1 at heroic level, 2 at paragon level, and 3 at epic level.
Those are NPCs, not monsters. NPCs are analogues of PC classes.

Starbuck_II
2008-07-21, 07:51 PM
Those are NPCs, not monsters. NPCs are analogues of PC classes.

No, Monsters can have healing surges. Look at Orcs, every Orc has them (Warrior's Surge).
Again, they have 1 per tier.

Yakk
2008-07-21, 08:37 PM
Ah, you are right. They just aren't typically included, because few monsters have powers to use them (second wind is not a standard monster power!)

Conners
2008-07-23, 06:29 AM
Sorry for not replying for so long, I've been quite sick lately (work has also been bad).

@Crow: Well, by "easy" I meant "easier". I planning on making the combat as difficult as can be managed without TPK.

@Viruzzo: If it's easy, that's fine. If it's too hard, I'll call in the gnoll whose guiding the party to wipe them out.

@Yakk: Unfortunately, I can't have people travelling with the party due to story reasons. Still, Gnolley should be able to crush anything the party finds if I sense a TPK coming.
Due to the set-up of the story, it doesn't exactly work out for a priest to be with mere scouts--unless you assume it's a weak priest and the tribe has a lot to spare.

@AKA_Bait: I'm not quite certain, but should I round up the players I had when I tried this in 3.5ed: A Fighter, a Cleric, a Monk/whatever-the-h**l-he'll-play-in-4e, a Druid/wizard-variant-or-ranger?, and a Wizard. Of course, I might have a completely different party this time around.

@Diego: Gah... as I said, these are my first monsters I've made with the 4e system (I'm not really that experienced in general...). Wait, I see the problem! I used this: http://www.asmor.com/scripts/4eMonsterMathCruncher/ to try and work out my monsters (put in Level 1 Artillery and you'll see I've copied it pretty close).

Thanks for the info, I'll try to revamp them--let's see now...

@Yakk: So... something like this maybe?: Kobold Crossbowman Level 1 Artillery
Small Natural Humanoid 100 XP
Initiative +5 Senses Perception +3; darkvision, low-lightvision
Respect and Fear aura 10; all subordinates within the aura gain a +2 bonus to attack rolls and morale
HP 24; Bloodied 12
AC 15; Fortitude 13, Reflex 14, Will 13; see also, “trapsense”.
Speed 5?
Action Points 0
:Melee: Claws and Teeth (standard; at-will)
Reach 1; +5 vs. AC; 1d3 damage
:Melee: Spear (standard; at-will)
Reach 1; +5 vs. AC; 1d6 + 1 damage
:Ranged: Crossbow (standard; at-will)
Reach 15/25; +8 vs. AC; 1d10 damage.
:Reaction: Quick Step (immediate; encounter)
As soon as an enemy enters an adjacent square, a kobold crossbowman can shift one square away from the enemy as an immediate action.
Str 10 (--) Dex 17 (+3) Wis 14 (+2)
Con 13 (+1) Int 8 (-1) Chr 10 (--)
Equipment: Chain shirt, Spear, Crossbow, 30 bolts, dagger. I forgot to mention a couple of things: 1) These kobolds are particularly well-armed, so they have good equipment and shirts of chained-steel (thus explaining the beefed-up armour class).
2) I originally forgot to add shifty (better give it to Sizek) but I figure that Quick Step could replace it for the kobold crossbowmen (perhaps they can't shift around so well with all their gear, but can make one quick shift as they see the enemy come at them?).
3) I intend Sizek to be pretty tough, at least for a 1st level party--he's meant to be impressive for a kobold.

@arnoldrew: Yeah, I read that--that's why I put them down as having one.

@Yakk & Starbuck_II & Yakk(again): OK, I'll leave out the healing surge for kobold crossbowmen etcetera, but I'll keep it for Sizek since I originally intended him to be an NPC. I wonder whether I should make him into one--he might fight on the party's side for a while at one point.


EDIT: I've just been thinking about a later encounter the party has. They are sleeping in the orc camp (the orcs are friendly for the most part), in their personal structure. In the night, when they are supposedly asleep, a goblin assassin releases two small, but incredibly venomous vipers into the party's room.

Viper Level 7 Minion
Tiny natural beast (reptile) 120 XP
Initiative +6 Senses Perception +7; low-light vision
HP 25; Bloodied 12
AC 21; Fortitude 16, Reflex 20, Will 14
Speed 2, climb 2
Action Points 0
:Melee: Venomous Bite (standard; at-will)
Reach 1; +12 vs. AC; 1 damage plus secondary attack on same target.
Secondary Attack: +8 vs. Fortitude; 2 poison damage, and ongoing 1d4 + 10 poison damage (save ends; continues even outside of combat). A DC 14 Heal check ends the continual damage, and grants the target bonus hit points equal to half the damage he or she was caused by the poison.
:Reaction: Lightning Reflexes (immediate; at-will)
Upon missing the snake, it will attack the attacker as a free action, unless they are outside of the snakes reach (see: “Venomous Bite”)
Quick Strikes
Vipers can make unlimited attacks of opportunity
Str 6 (-2) Dex 22 (+6) Wis 14 (+2)
Con 9 (-1) Int 3 (-4) Chr 5 (-3)

Behaviour:
The vipers in this case are trained to kill sleeping targets. Once all targets are easily dead, they would leave—this, however, is very unlikely (I hope) to happen to the adventurers.
Once threatened by non-sleeping adversaries, the viper will hiss and stay its ground—striking at anyone who comes into range. Should the party use ranged attacks, or attack it with a reach-weapon, the snake will soon get the idea it is not welcome and try to retreat.

Lore:
Nature DC 15: Vipers have a hard time distinguishing an object from an enemy, at least when angered, and are prone to strike at rocks thrown at them and similar things.
Nature DC 18: When threatened by a substantial enemy, vipers will only attack defensively, retreating should they get the chance.
Possible problems: 1)I gave it extra XP value since it's so tough for a minion, but I might need to give it more...
2) I made the snake a Minion since I felt a small snake shouldn't require more than one hit to kill, but at the same time I want the encounter I'm putting it in to be worrying...
3) I want the message, "Do NOT let this bite you--it's VERY poisonous (venomous)!!" to come across strongly, but I'm wondering how to do this with the continuous damage system without massacring someone in two or three rounds...

Note that the encounter is meant to be dangerous, but not necessarily hard should the party employ strategy (look at the snakes' behaviour and lore and you'll see what I mean).

Please give me your advice on what to do with this...

Yakk
2008-07-23, 02:05 PM
1) These kobolds are particularly well-armed, so they have good equipment and shirts of chained-steel (thus explaining the beefed-up armour class).

That makes them harder, hence increases their effective level as a challenge.

Ie, make them level 2 or 3 artillery. This boosts their HP, justifies higher damage (from their better equipment), boosts their AC/Defenses, and makes them worth the XP that their challenge represents.

It also means that the encounter becomes worth more XP -- as it should, as they are harder challenges.


Respect and Fear aura 10; all subordinates within the aura gain a +2 bonus to attack rolls and morale
I don't think this should be in the Crossbowman description. :-)

---

You could also just grab the "Kobold Slinger" from the MM as your baseline, and tweak it.

---

Artillery get a large bonus to their to-hit compared to other critters, in exchange for having less HP and crappier AC. If you break this, you are making a more power creature than intended. :-)

Conners
2008-07-23, 07:36 PM
That makes them harder, hence increases their effective level as a challenge.

Ie, make them level 2 or 3 artillery. This boosts their HP, justifies higher damage (from their better equipment), boosts their AC/Defenses, and makes them worth the XP that their challenge represents.

It also means that the encounter becomes worth more XP -- as it should, as they are harder challenges.


I don't think this should be in the Crossbowman description. :-)

---

You could also just grab the "Kobold Slinger" from the MM as your baseline, and tweak it.

---

Artillery get a large bonus to their to-hit compared to other critters, in exchange for having less HP and crappier AC. If you break this, you are making a more power creature than intended. :-) I didn't intend to make them utterly stronger to begin with... I only wanted to tweak up their AC (I picked out what was listed as "MEDIUM" damage for first level artillery from the chart :smallfrown:).

But then I'd have to lessen the number of them, and it doesn't make sense for the party to be attacked by five kobold soldiers...

Perhaps I can up the kobolds' XP without changing much else?

I might do that. I'll have a look at it.

That's a problem... but it could also be an interesting change from the norm.


What do you think about my Viper encounter?