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View Full Version : [3.5] Magic that Bites Back, Balancing Spell Casters



darkzucchini
2008-07-23, 12:56 AM
So I have been tinkering around for a little with ways to help balance the difference in power levels between full spell casters and the more mundane classes while keeping magic a powerful and mysterious force not to be underestimated. The problems I see with the current Vancian system is that, while they can do some nifty tricks, spell casters run out of usefulness pretty quickly at low levels. However, spell casters quickly become much more powerful than their mundane counterparts, as we all well know.

My solution is a two part (at least two part I should say) solution. First, we switch from a Vancian casting system to a spell point casting system. Unlike most spell point system, my system involves two sets of points; one small pool of Power Points that can be regained through rest and meditation (even to a limited extent in the middle of combat) and a larger pool of Mental Fortitude points (like hit points but for spells) that will represent the limit of which a mage may cast before totally expending himself. I haven't created a chart for Power Points yet (I am thinking something like 2 at first level 40 at 20th level, with the rate at which one can regain Power Points increasing as the character levels up), but full casters will begin with Mental Fortitude equal to 12 + Wisdom score at first level (hit points have been changed to full hit die + Constitution score at first level) and 1d12 + Wis mod every level there after, half casters, such as clerics (replaces Paladin while Cleric is replaced with Priest), Bards, and even Monks (Rangers are no longer spell casters) gain 6 + Wisdom score at first level, and non-casters gain 4 + Wisdom score at first level.

The second part of the solution is to make spell casting more dangerous to the caster, or the benefits require a greater toll from their caster. This done most through requiring the caster to make a Will save versus the DC of the spell that was just cast or suffer a listed consequence, or costs more spell points than other spells of that level, or requires full concentration to maintain. Here a couple examples of common complained about spells redone with this new system:

Fly
Transmution
Initial Power Cost: 5
Secondary Costs: None
Mental Fatigue: 5, plus an addition 1 every round the spell is maintained after the first round
Level: Air 4, Mage 3, Travel 3
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 Standard Action
Range: Personal
Duration: Concentration

The caster may fly at a speed of 60 ft (or 40 ft if he wears medium of heavy armor, or carries a medium or heavy load). The caster may ascend at half speed or descend at up to double speed, and the caster's maneuverability is good. Maintaining the Fly spell requires full concentration, the caster may not make any actions other than move actions without the spell failing. The caster may charge but not run, and may not carry aloft more than its maximum load.

Arcane Spell Component: The feather from any bird capable of flight.

(Note that under this version, the caster plummets to their death if the spell is dispelled or they loose concentration.)

Sleep
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind Effecting]
Initial Power Cost: 1
Secondary Costs: The caster must make a backlash save (Will save vs. DC of spell) or become mentally fatigued for 10 minute (cannot cast spells or take other mentally strenuous actions until having rested for at least a minute)
Mental Fatigue: 1
Level: Bard 1, Mage 1
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 Standard Action
Range: 50 ft.
Targets: One creature/level, no two of which may be more than 30 ft. away from each other.
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Will Negates

A sleep spell causes a magic slumber to come upon 4 Hit Dice of creatures. Creatures with the fewest Hit Dice are effected first. Among those of equal Hit Dice, those closest to the spell's point of origin are effected first. Hit Dice that are not sufficient to effect a creature are wasted. Sleep does not target unconscious creatures or those uneffected by mind effecting spells.

Sleeping creatures are helpless. Slapping or wounding awakens an effected creature, but normal noise does not. Awakening a creature is a standard action.

Material Component: A pinch of fine sand, rose petals, or a live cricket.

Finger of Death
Necromancy [Death]
Initial Power Cost: 13
Secondary Costs: The caster must make a backlash save or suffer 3d6 + 1/level damage.
Mental Fatigue: 13
Level: Mage 7
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 Standard Action
Range: 50 ft.
Target: One living creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude Partial

You can slay one living creature within range. The target is entitled to a Fortitude saving throw to resist death. If the save is successful, the creature instead takes 3d6 points of damage + 1 point per caster level (maximum +25). The subject might die from damage even if they make their save.

Anyway, I am hoping some people take notice of this post and comment on it. Constructive commentary greatly welcomed.

Tempest Fennac
2008-07-23, 01:07 AM
Have you heard of a variant rule where spellcasters become Fatigued and Exhausted as they get through their spells? I think they get Fatigued once half their spells are gone while becoming Exhausted when they run out completely (I'll try to find it). It is an interresting idea, but I'm not sure how well it would work. (Would all of the spells have backlash? If they did, it could discourage spellcasters from using buff spells which benefit the party, which would be more of a problem for other classes.)

darkzucchini
2008-07-23, 01:27 AM
Most buff spells don't have any backlash. Instead, the spell caster cannot regain the Power Points that were spent on the buff until the buff has expired.

Tempest Fennac
2008-07-23, 01:32 AM
Thanks (that makes sense). Would the same thing apply for utility spells? Some people would arue that it makes sense to nerf those because they can potentially make other party members redundant, but I'm not sure what sort of effects you could have. Also, isn't regaining power points relatively quickly easy to abuse, and would tis rule apply to classes with healing magic as well? I can't find the variant rule which I mentioned earlier, but you may find these variants interresting: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm and http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/rechargeMagic.htm .

RTGoodman
2008-07-23, 01:59 AM
After spending 20 minutes searching, I found what I was looking for (and what now realize is what Tempest was talking about a few posts ago).

The (3.5) Dragonlance Campaign Setting has an variant rule called "Curse of the Magi" that gives significant drawbacks to spellcasting (and mimics Raistlin's ill health in the actual novels). With the variant, any character that casts an arcane spell must make a Fort save (DC 10 + the spell's level) after casting the spell. If he fails, he becomes fatigued; if he fails a second while still fatigued, he becomes exhausted. If the fails another while exhausted, he falls unconscious.

Since the fatigued condition only goes away after an 8-hour rest (or a friendly Cleric hits you with a lesser restoration or something), you'll probably end each day either fatigued or exhausted (though the latter goes away after only an hour of rest). The Fort saves aren't too high, though, so you shouldn't be passing out after only three spells, at least. You'll probably be able to get off at least 5 or 6 before that happens. :smalltongue:

EDIT: \/Nevermind then. :smallwink:

Tempest Fennac
2008-07-23, 02:03 AM
Actually, that's not the same as the on I meant (the variant rule which I was refering to is based on either how many spell slots you have left, or you total spell levels. I can't remember which, though).

Pronounceable
2008-07-23, 02:09 AM
I think backlashing is the only real possible way of "balancing" magicians with DnD spell lists. I also think it's too much effort and should've been built in, but meh.

You're on the right track, though I think ultimately making up a new magic system'd be less effort than combing through spell lists.

insecure
2008-07-23, 02:27 AM
Have you heard of a variant rule where spellcasters become Fatigued and Exhausted as they get through their spells? I think they get Fatigued once half their spells are gone while becoming Exhausted when they run out completely (I'll try to find it). It is an interresting idea, but I'm not sure how well it would work. (Would all of the spells have backlash? If they did, it could discourage spellcasters from using buff spells which benefit the party, which would be more of a problem for other classes.)

Is it this? (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedSpellPoints.html) Look under "SPELL POINT VARIANT: VITALIZING".

Tempest Fennac
2008-07-23, 02:31 AM
That's exactly what I'm looking for (thanks, Insecure:smallsmile:). I didn't see it on the other website due to not remembering the name of it, and I thought it had its own page. cnsvnc, would removing spells which are broken (eg: thePolymorph and Celerity lines) work as well for balancing spellcasters?

Pronounceable
2008-07-23, 08:05 AM
Here's something to be remembered:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83971


cnsvnc, would removing spells which are broken (eg: thePolymorph and Celerity lines) work as well for balancing spellcasters?

That'd certainly help. Along with all mass buffs, whole metamagics and "utility" spells that undermine entire classes.

I also like that Curse of the Magi from DL, but DCs just can't scale linear with spell level. Level squared DC increase seems (11, 14, 19, 26, 35, 46, 59, 74, 91) too much at first, but it'd work very well considering the power of high level spells and various +s available to high level casters.

Zeta Kai
2008-07-23, 08:11 AM
One of the balancing devices I used for the Bio-Mage (see signature) was an exhaustion mechanic.

Prophaniti
2008-07-23, 08:32 AM
Hmm, that's an interesting method, some good ideas here. I've thought about having something like that to further handicap arcane casters in my setting (see sig), Innate casters have wild magic and overall weaker spells, divine casters have wrath of the gods and very few offensive spells, but arcane casters all I've really changed is to allow them to cast spells after using their prepared ones, though at significantly (read: almost guaranteed) risk of triggering wild magic. I think I'll also add a fatigue system to that, and maybe a spell-point system to their overall casting ability, limiting how many spells they can cast regardless of prep'd or not.

I have no problem with crippling the hell out of magic, I just prefer to do it to the casters rather than the spells. My view on magic has always been "It should be really powerful, but really difficult, and with serious side-effects and consequences."

Tempest Fennac
2008-07-23, 08:44 AM
I know what you mean about magic needing to be powerful, but I'm not sure I agree about how exhausting it should be. As far as Divine Casters go, they are using energy from their diety or nature to cast spells so it shouldn't really affect them too much (I know this isn't quite the same thing, but I can send Reiki all day without any problems at all because I'm not using my energy to do it, so I'm assuming Divine Casters would work in the same way).

darkzucchini
2008-07-23, 11:40 PM
Tempest Fennac: As far as utility spells go, I don't think that I would resort to backlashes but would make sure that the spell does not overshadow the ability of the class that the spell would replace. For instance, the spell that I think of when I think of utility is the Knock spell. I think that I would either increase the time that the spell takes to cast, thus it would take less time for the rogue to just pick the lock, or make it so that the mage may only unlock locks of a certain DC, such as 10 + Int mod + caster level.

Healing is one of the aspects of casting that I have really been struggling with. One idea was that damage would be changed to subdual damage rather than fully healed, but I don't feel that this fix really would work all that well. Another idea is for healing to cost more mental fatigue than most other spells of the same level. Or I have been throwing around the idea of making damage more persistent, perhaps for every 2 points of damage taken an extended rest with a heal check is needed to heal the damage. If anyone has any other ideas or comments, feel free to pitch in.

I did see variants that you present, and my fix combined aspects from both of them. But I felt that spell points didn't change the Vancian system enough, I especially didn't like that a low level mage can hardly cast any spells, while a high level mage can shoot out a near endless barrage of spells. As for recharging spells, I didn't like a specific spell had to be recharged. It feels rather video game-esque to me, and I have no problem with mages casting the same spell twice, or three times, in a row.

rtg0922: Fatigued is an interesting idea. I've used a similar idea as a backlash to some of my spells with mental exhaustion (see Sleep). The one problem I have with this is that it can make spell casters run out of spells very quickly (or the ability to cast spells I should say), making them act essentially like low levels casters with more powerful spells, which I don't really like. Also, it makes focusing on uping your fortitude save very important for casters.

cnsvnc: Yeah, but I have a lot of time on my hands at the moment. Besides, who knows, maybe I can sell my ideas at some point.

Baron Corm
2008-07-24, 12:05 AM
Your first mistake was claiming to balance spellcasters.

Think of spells as class features that a spellcaster gets each level, and imagine them written in to a class table. "Level 5: New Save-or-Suck ability, New Crowd Control ability, and improve all previous class features." "Level 6: More of the same."

That is why spellcasters are unbalanced. Just compare their gigantic list of potent class features to a non-spellcasting class. A class with class features that powerful would not make it a single step in this homebrew forum, regardless of d4 hit die and bad BaB. The class features even compensate those drawbacks!

There are no real drawbacks you could give that would balance spells. You really need to just change the spells.

Edit: A note on why drawbacks like the one you posited don't make the cut for balance. Making a DC to cast a spell means either you will be mind-blowingly powerful or mind-blowingly weak. See also: Truenamer.

mikeejimbo
2008-07-24, 12:10 AM
You could make the casters lose Sanity for casting spells.

Tempest Fennac
2008-07-24, 12:16 AM
That could be good idea for utility spells, but I'm not sure if it would work for healing without being a problem for the other classes.

mikeejimbo
2008-07-24, 12:18 AM
Well ideally if you're using the Sanity system, your characters are much more at risk of going insane than dying.

What?? Why are you all looking at me like that??

darkzucchini
2008-07-24, 12:48 AM
Your first mistake was claiming to balance spellcasters.

Think of spells as class features that a spellcaster gets each level, and imagine them written in to a class table. "Level 5: New Save-or-Suck ability, New Crowd Control ability, and improve all previous class features." "Level 6: More of the same."

That is why spellcasters are unbalanced. Just compare their gigantic list of potent class features to a non-spellcasting class. A class with class features that powerful would not make it a single step in this homebrew forum, regardless of d4 hit die and bad BaB. The class features even compensate those drawbacks!

There are no real drawbacks you could give that would balance spells. You really need to just change the spells.

Edit: A note on why drawbacks like the one you posited don't make the cut for balance. Making a DC to cast a spell means either you will be mind-blowingly powerful or mind-blowingly weak. See also: Truenamer.

I agree, nothing that I do to balance 3e spell casters is going to make them completely balanced with their mundane counterparts. However, I don't think that it is necessary to make every class completely balanced with every other. Perhaps balance isn't the right word, I am looking to reduce the power of spell casting classes without reducing their verity.

As for your edit, my balancing act does not require the mage to make a check to cast a spell. It requires the mage to pass a save equal DC to the DC that the target of the spell had to save verse or suffer some other negative affect. The beauty of this system, I think, is that punishes a mage for going down the route of making their spells DCs unsavable.

ericgrau
2008-07-24, 12:51 AM
Balancing you own point system without massive playtesting and/or number crunching will be a nightmare.

You'd be better off taking a psion and calling him a wizard. Not that I'm a fan of them, I'm just saying it'd be closer to balanced.

The real balancing factor for wizard is right in their class description. They are powerful when prepared but highly vulnerable when caught off guard. Barring uber cheese and some temporary effects (which require preparation, so they aren't really an answer), this tends to be the case in most games.

Tempest Fennac
2008-07-24, 12:53 AM
I know what you man about balancing things completely. To be fair, I tend to take the stance that magic shold be more powerful then hitting things with swords or using normal real life skills due to how it involves altering reality, and, at least initially, spellcasters are at risk of running out of spells. On the other hand, if spellcasters aren't played correctly, they can easily upstage other classes, resulting in the game being less fun for some people. Is Sanity too much of a problem if you're a spellcaster, though? I know it doesn't affect healing spells, but it could be too much of a problem if you're going to use other spells.

Pronounceable
2008-07-24, 04:23 AM
Edit: A note on why drawbacks like the one you posited don't make the cut for balance. Making a DC to cast a spell means either you will be mind-blowingly powerful or mind-blowingly weak. See also: Truenamer.

He's right. A simple yes-no result from DC checks leads to all sorts of crap. What's needed IMO is tiered failure. More you fail your roll, worse the effect. A relatively simple general backlash idea comes to mind. Failed rolls deal stat damage, the more the merrier. A roll failed by 6 deals 6 (or 3 or 5) damage to casting stat (or some other stat). Find some formula that binds stat damage to failure amount that works for you.

Sanity is for the weak!: The problem with sanity is it's just another spell point mechanic, unless you have Cthulhu and his buddies hanging around so sanity is important for the noncasters as well. Which means this is not particularly DnDy anymore. And combining it with another spell point mechanic will make it too clumsy.

Balance: You don't balance caster with noncaster, not in western fantasy. The genre is all wrong. You need anime/wuxia for it. Best you can do is to make sure casters don't completely pwn noncasters. Or nerf magic to the point of combat inapplicable.

Knock: I HATE that. Why is an all powerful wizard bothering to pick a stupid lock? Blow the damn door off its hinges! Or if you're not that powerful, at least melt the stupid lock so the door stays open...

Healing and hp: Is always clumsy. What I did was create attack mechanic from ground up (tiered failure again) and had everything have 10 hp representing stamina and 5 wp representing actual physical state (wp damage prevent hp healing as well). Any damage in either gives combat penalties which pile up rather quick. hp heal with rest, wp heal with weeks of doing nothing much. Combat applicable healing was quite against my fluff, but that sort of limited hp makes it much easier to work with healing spells. Simple healing can restore hp, strong healing can restore wp.

Or if that's too radical for you, make common healing spells into hp transfer spells. Then make self only lethal-to-subdual converters, add casting check that deals even more damage on fail, and you're good to go.