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Isomenes
2008-07-23, 05:44 PM
So a friend and I have had an ongoing debate concerning Versatile weapon damage, and one of the facets was where the damage bonus applied. The short answer: according to CustServ, it applies just like all other damage bonuses, after damage dice have been rolled.

Granted, it's not an erratum, but adding the damage to each die roll didn't seem to make sense to me. Furthermore, this means that the bastard sword isn't overpowered compared to the greatsword. (Unless you really want to get your panties in a knot over a single point of damage at the expense of a feat.)

My question:


Greetings,

I'm writing to attempt to clarify how Versatile weapon damage (the extra 1 point) is applied. There seem to be two interpretations: it is applied to each weapon die, or it is applied after the weapon damage is rolled.

The Versatile description reads, "Versatile weapons are one-handed, but you can use them two-handed. If you do, you deal an extra 1 point of damage when you roll damage for the weapon" (PHB 217). However...

Weapon Damage is determined by "Roll[ing] the damage indicated in the power description. If you’re using a weapon for the attack, the damage is some multiple of your weapon damage dice" (PHB 276). The rest of the description details bonuses that apply, and every one is applied after the dice are rolled, as indicated by the example.

The example given does not clarify the main issue, however, because Versatile weapon damage doesn't come into play there.

So is the base damage output for a longsword wielded in two hands

x[d8]+1,

or

x[d8+1]?

Many thanks,

Steve "Isomenes" Killen


Their response:


Steven,

When you use a versatile weapon two handed you add one extra point of damage after the entire weapon damage has been rolled.

Good gaming!

Starbuck_II
2008-07-23, 05:55 PM
So a friend and I have had an ongoing debate concerning Versatile weapon damage, and one of the facets was where the damage bonus applied. The short answer: according to CustServ, it applies just like all other damage bonuses, after damage dice have been rolled.

Granted, it's not an errata, but adding the damage to each die roll didn't seem to make sense to me. Furthermore, this means that the bastard sword isn't overpowered compared to the greatsword. (Unless you really want to get your panties in a knot over a single point of damage at the expense of a feat.)



That was what I read since July (when I got the books in paper form):
What made you think the bastardsword was supposed be overpowerd compared to Greatsword?

Isomenes
2008-07-23, 06:03 PM
That was what I read since July (when I got the books in paper form):
What made you think the bastardsword was supposed be overpowerd compared to Greatsword?

Not me, but my friend (and some posters on ENWorld). The wording in the Versatile description is perniciously ambiguous.

The New Bruceski
2008-07-23, 06:15 PM
Not me, but my friend (and some posters on ENWorld). The wording in the Versatile description is perniciously ambiguous.

I thought that wasn't because of the question of "where does +1 fit in" but "Does it count as a 2-hander for Power Attack and other feats"?

Isomenes
2008-07-23, 06:21 PM
I thought that wasn't because of the question of "where does +1 fit in" but "Does it count as a 2-hander for Power Attack and other feats"?

No, I've seen several posters explicitly state that it is added to each damage die. (The "handedness" question is a separate issue, but also addressed by CustServ.)

Viruzzo
2008-07-24, 04:53 AM
To me it's quite clear that "when you roll for damage" means the total damage, else they would have specified "to each die rolled for damage", which does not make much sense mechanically anyway. I suppose that those posts you are quoting are one of those "Rules Are Written As I Like Them To Be" attempts to steal some extra damage. :smallwink:

Conners
2008-07-24, 06:22 AM
I don't see it as too bad as adding the damage to each damage roll. A bastard sword isn't really worth a feat (besides roleplaying or if you happen to find a magic bastard sword) it seems.

Blackdrop
2008-07-24, 08:18 AM
I don't see it as too bad as adding the damage to each damage roll. A bastard sword isn't really worth a feat (besides roleplaying or if you happen to find a magic bastard sword) it seems.

Unless your a Melee class Halfling, in which case it is your strongest weapon.

tyfon
2008-07-24, 08:22 AM
Excuse me, but I do not understand.

Why bastard sword is not worth taking ?

Starbuck_II
2008-07-24, 01:48 PM
Excuse me, but I do not understand.

Why bastard sword is not worth taking ?

I'm not sure why he says that.

I mean, it is like a one handed Greatsword in 4th edition. That is definitately worth a feat. Even +1 total is a worth a feat (Weapon Focus, any Astral Sea type feat, Twfing feat, etc).

Now, Bastardsword isn't worth a feat in 3rd edition, but in 4th? I don't believe that.

wodan46
2008-07-24, 02:20 PM
Don't believe anything CustServ says, they know nothing, and have regularly given answers that are completely the opposite of previous answers.

My assumption is that for Versatile Weapons, you add the +1 damage to all [W]s, but you still treat the weapon as 1 handed in regards to things like Reaping Strike and Power Attack. This prevents Bastard Sword from being a must have for a sword user.

Isomenes
2008-07-24, 06:07 PM
Don't believe anything CustServ says, they know nothing, and have regularly given answers that are completely the opposite of previous answers.

My assumption is that for Versatile Weapons, you add the +1 damage to all [W]s, but you still treat the weapon as 1 handed in regards to things like Reaping Strike and Power Attack. This prevents Bastard Sword from being a must have for a sword user.

Thereby making Versatile weapon damage the only form of bonus damage that is added to the weapon damage dice instead of added after?

o/`` One of these things is not like the ooothers... o/``

It doesn't really make sense unless you're seeking to make a bastard sword (historically known as a "hand-and-a-half") overreachingly better than four feet of solid two-handed steel. The advantage it gains by being a one-handed d10 is more than enough without making it a d12 by default.

Helgraf
2008-07-24, 11:58 PM
Thought all damage bonuses that werent 'attribute modifier' went inside the [W] calculation?

In which case, Versatile would work two handed as [W+1] + Str on a basic attack, not [W] + Str + 1.

Tengu_temp
2008-07-25, 12:07 AM
Bastard sword proficiency is definitely worth taking - it's +1 attack when compared to battleaxe, or +2 AC and reflex when combared to a greatsword (because you can hold a shield in the other hand).

As for the original question, CustServ is right here. Only base weapon damage gets multiplied by powers. [W] means the die (or dice) you use and nothing more.

Torchlyte
2008-07-25, 05:38 AM
Thought all damage bonuses that werent 'attribute modifier' went inside the [W] calculation?

In which case, Versatile would work two handed as [W+1] + Str on a basic attack, not [W] + Str + 1.

That is not correct. Enhancement bonuses, power bonuses, etc are applied after the [W]. The distinction is that you only apply them when you're making a roll (which necessarily involves [w]) in the first place - you can't apply enhancement to your secondary cleave damage.