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View Full Version : Should I get Mutants and Masterminds and/or Shadowrun?



Conners
2008-07-24, 10:42 AM
This thread is for convincing me, and anyone else reading this thread who doesn't own one or both of the above, into getting or not getting the above (Mutants and Master minds, and Shadowrun)m

From what I've heard, the former is a superhero and supervillain set-up, with rules for doing some pretty bizarre stuff (which is good).
The latter seems to be the modern age of basic DnD, putting the elves, etcetera, into cities--giving them huge guns.

That's what I've heard, and the only stuff I know about the above systems (besides hearing a few feat names). Can you please give me links/info/input/etcetera on whether you think I should or shouldn't get one or both of these?

One question I have in particular: With the change of DnD from 3.5e to 4e, has this effected M&M or Sr at all? Also, have they also changed editions of late?

Tengu_temp
2008-07-24, 11:04 AM
The answer to "should I check out a new game instead of sticking to DND only" is always yes. Unless the game in question is FATAL

From what I know about M&M, it's a wonderfully versatile system that allows you to represent anything, based on d20 but throwing away all the stupid stuff and replacing them with awesome. I've yet to meet someone who played it and didn't like it. Although I've heard second edition is much better than first one.

Shadowrun is not cyberpunk DND. It's skill-based, not level-based, and as skill-based games tend to do, it's much deadlier. It has also a lot of flavour, although this changes with each edition. If you like cyberpunk, it's worth picking up, although you'd have to ask someone who actually played it for more details.

Destro_Yersul
2008-07-24, 11:07 AM
Shadowrun is good. Only version of it I've played is 4th, which is the most recent and seems to be quite well done. There's a lot of background, which is nice, but there's not so much that it's difficult to come up with something new. I'm running a campaign of it for a few friends, and so far they all like it too.

Chronicled
2008-07-24, 11:08 AM
Shadowrun 4 is a great, great system (one that's less prone to power creep than I expected, too). I've only glanced at M&M 2nd edition, but I've heard many great things about it from friends.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-07-24, 11:10 AM
M&M is the most elegant thing to come out of the d20 rules. Get it. (1st edition is absolutely horrible; it's "D&D Superheroes", with a lot of D&D baggage and stupid clunkiness - some powers are feats, etc. - but 2nd edition is hardly even recognizable.)

Shadowrun... eh. Cyberpunk 2020 is better for the genre.

And I gotta agree with Tengu_temp - any RPG is better than D&D, usually.

Green Bean
2008-07-24, 11:14 AM
I'm going to throw my vote in for Mutant and Masterminds. It's amazing in terms of genre emulation (especially the Hero Point system, which encourages good RP as well as making for for versatile characters and cool stunts), and you'll be able to stat up pretty much any hero you can think of.

hewhosaysfish
2008-07-24, 11:26 AM
M&M is good fun. I've played in one game that was supposed to be 4-colours style but apparently it works for other styles too (we were using the nothing-does-lethal-damage optional rule).
The way that absolutely everything is points-buy together with the effect-descriptor divorce means that you can build a character to pretty much any concept you want.
I haven't been over the rules with the rules with a fine-tooth comb but it all seems pretty balanced: the Power-Level system prevents you from dumping a bajillion points on one uber-power and - at the other end of the power scale - one of the guys I was playing with had to make his character more competent than he had planned to use up all his build-points.
Just watch out for some of the more notable issues: don't let PCs have the Nemesis power without a very, very good reason; make sure all their arrays have proper thematic links instead of just being a shopping-list of powers they thought might kick ass; and watch out for array filled entirely with attack powers.

Oh, and while it uses the D20 system, it doesn't require any DnD books to play, so 4e does not affect it at all.

On the whole, I would really recommend it. If I had the money, I might go out and buy it myself.


Shadowrun, I can't really comment on. I wasn't that impressed with it when I played it but the GM who ran it was a bit of a DnD-monkey and did run it like a slightly inferior DnD-with-guns: which I hear is precisely the wrong way to play Shadowrun.
I'm sure there'll be a Shadowrun afficionado who can put it better than I can but I understand it's supposed to reward planning and caution, produce an atmosphere of paranoia interspersed with moments of desperation and completely crush anyone who just runs straight in, guns blazing.

EDIT:
Just remembered a couple more points about M&M:
1) It's points based. It's D20. It's superheroes. It is the Unholy Trinity of character creation. Set aside a whole session at least, preferably two.
2) The knockback rules are crazy. When we first came to apply them, we discovered that every character in the party was knocking every enemy they hit flying backwards 25ft. Always. And superpowered enemies would do the same to us. A short fight scene swiftly made Freedom City Bank look like a Swiss cheese, as spandex-clad figures crashed through the brickwork right and left.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-07-24, 11:51 AM
2) The knockback rules are crazy. When we first came to apply them, we discovered that every character in the party was knocking every enemy they hit flying backwards 25ft. Always. And superpowered enemies would do the same to us. A short fight scene swiftly made Freedom City Bank look like a Swiss cheese, as spandex-clad figures crashed through the brickwork right and left.

That's just faithful to the genre.

Reminds me of the fight between Invincible and Omni-Man...

Ecalsneerg
2008-07-24, 12:02 PM
2) The knockback rules are crazy. When we first came to apply them, we discovered that every character in the party was knocking every enemy they hit flying backwards 25ft. Always. And superpowered enemies would do the same to us. A short fight scene swiftly made Freedom City Bank look like a Swiss cheese, as spandex-clad figures crashed through the brickwork right and left.

Were you doing it right? You only knockback if you stun them, and I've found that stunning doesn't come into play that often.

Aevylmar
2008-07-24, 01:44 PM
I'm a Mutants and Masterminds fan, and I like it but with a few reservations. Most notably, it's horribly easy to build an incredibly broken character, and I don't really like how they do super-speed type powers. Still, it's a good system and I would gladly recommend it to any superhero and RPG fans.

Never played Shadowrun, though I hear it's pretty cool.

Swordguy
2008-07-24, 02:20 PM
I'm sure there'll be a Shadowrun afficionado who can put it better than I can but I understand it's supposed to reward planning and caution, produce an atmosphere of paranoia interspersed with moments of desperation and completely crush anyone who just runs straight in, guns blazing.


*Waves*

At the moment, Shadowrun exists in 2 different forms.

The first is the cyberpunk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberpunk)of the 1980's. The world is dystopian, corporations rule everything, and you play (essentially) criminals for hire so those corporations can maintain plausible deniability when their competitor's factory explodes. To compete, you almost have to be magical or cybered - but magic is physically dangerous to call upon, and cyberware slowly eats away at your humanity. How much or your soul are you willing to trade to be the best at what you do? The best missions are the ones where you've plannned them so well and everything goes to the plan so never have to pull your guns, and every punk with a revolver is a potentially lethal threat. This is the world of Shadowrun 3e.

The second is the post-cyberpunk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postcyberpunk) world of the late 1990's and early 2000's - heavily influenced by Japanese imports. The atmosphere is a little brighter, and although governments and autonomous corporate entities still wield an oppressive amount of power, there's hope on the horizon if you push hard enough. The biggest change is that cyberware isn't as soul-destroying as people once thought, taking the lessons of Ghost in the Shell into account. Everything has gone wireless, and while it's a little more modern-feeling than wires jacked into somebody's head to access the internet, people can hack the signals and turn ordinary implements into dangerous objects - like that car the target of your assassination attempt is riding inside. This is the world of Shadowrun 4e.

The two use completely different task-resolution systems, naturally, which forces you to choose which one you like more. Third edition is considerably more complex, if it matters, though a great deal cheaper to get into. And, honestly, the divide between fans of the two systems makes the 3e/4e debates look like a town hall meeting.

(If'n it matters, I'm a 3e fan myself.)

Jerthanis
2008-07-24, 04:12 PM
Simply put, Mutants and Masterminds 2nd edition is my very favorite RPG system of all. It's modular, elegant, and simple. Character creation is concept-oriented and more balanced than any other point-based character creation system I've seen. It's designed and outfitted for Superheroes, but is easily re-workable into any genre you feel like, if you really wanted to. With the system, fights are relatively fast-paced and cinematic, with plenty of room for cool stunts and improvisation. It's really fun, and if you like Comic book superheroes of any stripe, you'll love Mutants and Masterminds.

Shadowrun I'm less familiar with. I love William Gibson's work, but I don't know why they mixed Tolkien in with the work. Even if it seems mechanically different from D&D, it strikes me as incredibly D&D in the feel of the game. Mysterious Strangers who have dubious loyalties hire a group of extremely dangerous expert killers to perform a dangerous task involving theft, murder, or both. These expert killers carry out the task in various creative and unorthodox ways. The only difference is that Shadowrun has a more definitive setting, and the tasks are generally carried out more like Ocean's Eleven than like bloodthirsty pirates. I've played several Shadowrun games, both 3rd edition and 4th, but I can't say I'm terribly familiar with the mechanics... all I really remember about them are the parts I hated.

Basically, if you like Superheroes and want to run/play a Superheroes game, you absolutely cannot go wrong with Mutants and Masterminds 2nd edition. If you like Cyberpunk and want to run/play a Cyberpunk game... Shadowrun will serve, but you might want to page through GURPS: Cyberpunk, Cyberpunk 2020, or other alternatives before you commit to Shadowrun, and even there, you'll want to decide if you want 3rd edition or 4th.

Xuincherguixe
2008-07-24, 04:48 PM
Not familiar with Mutants and Masterminds, but I am with Shadowrun. I kind of grew up with it, and have a number of fond memories.

There's a lot of different takes on it, and there probably isn't any wrong way to play. (Although, putting the characters in a dungeon full of traps and horrible monsters might be close :P)

It also pretty much comes right and tells you to play it however it is you want to. I can even see it working as a Dark Fantasy in the fashion of Berserk (only with lots of Cyborgs and Machineguns), or Cthulhu where you're so much smaller than everything else (it'd take a bit of tweaking, as by default there's an assumption that you're better than most of the people around you).

Dairun Cates
2008-07-24, 05:26 PM
Both are solid systems, but M&M definitely pushes the envelope. I'm currently running a campaign in it, and it's a blast.

Conners
2008-07-25, 04:23 AM
Thanks very much, guys :smallbiggrin:! After hearing your opinions, I think both games appeal to me quite well. I'll try to get both (the newer editions, sine they appear to suit me better) but I might only have to settle for one.

I have a few last questions, though:

Mutants and Masterminds
1) How well does the M&M system work for anime-style characters like Inuyasha and such?
2) Can you make characters as powerful as Goku and Vegeta--and if so, up to which saga?
3) Is there anywhere/way I could learn how to avoid players' attempts to make overpowered characters?
4) Is it possible to make all of the Superhero/villain characters (Venom, Spiderman, Superman, the Teen Titans, etcetera.)?
5) Is it balanced in a way that I can make a normal (non-mutant/alien/super-powered)person as strong as a mutant/alien/super-powered person?

Shadowrun
1) How easy/hard is it to put together Shadowrun characters?
2) What's this I hear about troll-sized elves and catgirls being in it O_o...?
3) Is Shadowrun meant to be the twentieth-century of DnD, or are they merely similar?
4) Same as question 3 for M&M.
5) How hard is it to homebrew things like rocket-propelled chainsaws (juist for fun XD)?

DrowVampyre
2008-07-25, 04:44 AM
Shadowrun
1) How easy/hard is it to put together Shadowrun characters?
2) What's this I hear about troll-sized elves and catgirls being in it O_o...?
3) Is Shadowrun meant to be the twentieth-century of DnD, or are they merely similar?
4) Same as question 3 for M&M.
5) How hard is it to homebrew things like rocket-propelled chainsaws (juist for fun XD)?

Never played M&M, so I can't comment. Shadowrun, though...I've had some experience with, and I'll give answers for 4e, since that's the newest one (and I really like the GitS feel)

1) Very easy - you get points, you spend points according to a chart, you have your character. This becomes more complex when you throw in the lots of cyberware that is available, but starting characters don't get that much so you get to learn that as you go. It is, however, very easy to build a walking corpse, too, if you focus too heavily on one thing (usually shooting) while sacrificing everything else for it. But they have quite a few prebuilt characters you can take right out of the book, or use as a model for building your own.

2)Troll sized elves? Um...no, not in anything I've seen anyway. Catgirls are possible, but they're not a race - they're peopel who have gotten cosmetic 'ware to make them...well, catgirls.

3) Shadowrun is in no way connected with D&D as a setting. All the metahumans are expressions of UGE (Unexplained Genetic Expression - mass mutations of children into elves and dwarfs) and Goblinization (adults suddenly becoming orks and trolls) or their descendants. They're all human, just...differently human. Magic works far differently. THat elves, orks, etc. and magic are in it is the only connection it has with D&D.

4) Just follow the build guidelines, really. If they concentrate entirely on combat, they'll get screwed six ways from Sunday, because there's no way you can make it in SR with only one skill. Besides, there are hard limits on skills, so even if they go all out, they're not gonna be that much more uber than other trained people. Like the corporate security they'll be facing off against.

5) Eh...you could do it, basically just by reflavoring the assault cannon or a normal rocket launcher. But really, when you have monowire whips and the aforementioned assault cannons and grenade launchers with smartlinks and airburst modules...chainsaw-rockets are just soooo retro. :smallwink:

Conners
2008-07-25, 05:27 AM
Never played M&M, so I can't comment. Shadowrun, though...I've had some experience with, and I'll give answers for 4e, since that's the newest one (and I really like the GitS feel)

1) Very easy - you get points, you spend points according to a chart, you have your character. This becomes more complex when you throw in the lots of cyberware that is available, but starting characters don't get that much so you get to learn that as you go. It is, however, very easy to build a walking corpse, too, if you focus too heavily on one thing (usually shooting) while sacrificing everything else for it. But they have quite a few prebuilt characters you can take right out of the book, or use as a model for building your own.

2)Troll sized elves? Um...no, not in anything I've seen anyway. Catgirls are possible, but they're not a race - they're peopel who have gotten cosmetic 'ware to make them...well, catgirls.

3) Shadowrun is in no way connected with D&D as a setting. All the metahumans are expressions of UGE (Unexplained Genetic Expression - mass mutations of children into elves and dwarfs) and Goblinization (adults suddenly becoming orks and trolls) or their descendants. They're all human, just...differently human. Magic works far differently. THat elves, orks, etc. and magic are in it is the only connection it has with D&D.

4) Just follow the build guidelines, really. If they concentrate entirely on combat, they'll get screwed six ways from Sunday, because there's no way you can make it in SR with only one skill. Besides, there are hard limits on skills, so even if they go all out, they're not gonna be that much more uber than other trained people. Like the corporate security they'll be facing off against.

5) Eh...you could do it, basically just by reflavoring the assault cannon or a normal rocket launcher. But really, when you have monowire whips and the aforementioned assault cannons and grenade launchers with smartlinks and airburst modules...chainsaw-rockets are just soooo retro. :smallwink: Thanks for answering those :smallbiggrin:.


Another question I have, though: WHICH BOOKS DO I GET OF MnM AND Shadowrun :smalleek:!?!? I looked them up on the internet, and I got quite a stream of available books... At the moment, I only want to Bear Necessities, by the way (if there is a supplement book which makes everything 500% better, consider it a necessity).

Attilargh
2008-07-25, 06:25 AM
Bear necessities? You probably want this (http://www.amazon.com/Bears-Wild-Guide-Charles-Fergus/dp/0811732517/ref=sid_dp_dp), then.

For serious-like now, the core books for fourth edition Shadowrun (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=2780&it=1) and second edition M&M (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=19910&it=1&filters=0_0_0_31815) should be enough.

Also, the answer to pretty much all of the M&M questions is "yes". You can do pretty well anything with it. The book itself has decent tips on avoiding cheese.

Conners
2008-07-25, 06:45 AM
Bear necessities? You probably want this (http://www.amazon.com/Bears-Wild-Guide-Charles-Fergus/dp/0811732517/ref=sid_dp_dp), then.

For serious-like now, the core books for fourth edition Shadowrun (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=2780&it=1) and second edition M&M (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=19910&it=1&filters=0_0_0_31815) should be enough.

Also, the answer to pretty much all of the M&M questions is "yes". You can do pretty well anything with it. The book itself has decent tips on avoiding cheese. Note that the bear necessities part was a direct reference to the song from the Jungle Book movie (the last movie of Walt Disney) :smalltongue:.

Thanks for that, I'll see about getting it :smallbiggrin: (I might do a anime-style campaign when I get good at it, or maybe even a DBZ campaign).

PnP Fan
2008-07-25, 08:24 AM
Mutants and Masterminds
1) How well does the M&M system work for anime-style characters like Inuyasha and such?
2) Can you make characters as powerful as Goku and Vegeta--and if so, up to which saga?
3) Is there anywhere/way I could learn how to avoid players' attempts to make overpowered characters?
4) Is it possible to make all of the Superhero/villain characters (Venom, Spiderman, Superman, the Teen Titans, etcetera.)?
5) Is it balanced in a way that I can make a normal (non-mutant/alien/super-powered)person as strong as a mutant/alien/super-powered person?

Shadowrun
1) How easy/hard is it to put together Shadowrun characters?
2) What's this I hear about troll-sized elves and catgirls being in it O_o...?
3) Is Shadowrun meant to be the twentieth-century of DnD, or are they merely similar?
4) Same as question 3 for M&M.
5) How hard is it to homebrew things like rocket-propelled chainsaws (juist for fun XD)?

MnM:
Okay, this is probably my favorite superhero system ever. Well balanced, as long as you stay away from the grey boxes in the powers section. Read them, and don't allow anyone to emulate them. As for your questions:
1. Powers are effect based. Everything else is special effects, and fluff. So characters like Inuyasha and Wolverine, on paper, wind up looking fairly similar (I'm thinking early Inuyasha before he really started tapping into his powers). They both have tracking abilities, claw attacks, and heal quickly. From there, it's all in how you play it.
2. Goku? Vegeta? no idea. I think those are DBZ characters? I'm not sure. I know you can stat up the current version of Superman as a fairly high level character, if that gives you a benchmark.
3. Most of the balance problems are limited by the basic mechanics of the game. For the loopholes that superpowers inevitably incur, read the aforementioned grey boxes, they'll tell you what things to stop. Are there other builds that break the game? yes, but the book gives you a good idea of what to look for. Also talk to the players before hand about game breaking characters.
4. Pretty much. The game was designed with those characters in mind, and powers are highly customizeable.
5. yes. We've had a number of Captain America knock offs in our games, and they do quite well. There's a feat that allows you to trade off attack bonus for damage bonus, so the super-norms wind up buying high attack bonuses with low damage bonuses (via strength), and then trading off when there's a bbeg that's really tough. there's also lots of interaction skills that allow you to debuff a villain with a few skill rolls, to improve your chances of hitting. Works very well.

Shadowrun: haven't played since 3rd ed, but I'll answer what I can.
1, 2: no idea.
3. No, but SR draws from a lot of the same mythology that D&D draws from, so of course they share a lot of things, like Elves and Trolls.
4. I think there are enough rules lawyers, min-maxers, and build-experts here, that you could put up a post on this forum asking about traps in SR, and get good information.
5. Pen + Paper + Reason + Inspiration = Homebrew I don't really have a good answer.

Green Bean
2008-07-25, 08:31 AM
I have a few last questions, though:

Mutants and Masterminds
1) How well does the M&M system work for anime-style characters like Inuyasha and such?
2) Can you make characters as powerful as Goku and Vegeta--and if so, up to which saga?
3) Is there anywhere/way I could learn how to avoid players' attempts to make overpowered characters?
4) Is it possible to make all of the Superhero/villain characters (Venom, Spiderman, Superman, the Teen Titans, etcetera.)?
5) Is it balanced in a way that I can make a normal (non-mutant/alien/super-powered)person as strong as a mutant/alien/super-powered person?

1) M&M is ideal for Inu-Yasha or Naruto type anime; both superhero comics and fighting anime share very similar genre conventions.

2) Absolutely. Admittedly, for the truly "over 9000" fights, you'll need to raise the overall power level of your game (the equivalent of starting a DnD game at level 15 instead of level 8, for example), but statting up "flying, superstrong guy with energy blasts" is a piece of cake.

3) There are a few powers included for the sake of completeness, such as Duplication or Transform, that can slip into brokenness, but he Core book will list the powers that can venture into overpowered territory.

4) Absolutely. In fact, if you stop by the M&M official forums (The Atomic Think Tank), there are entire subforums dedicated to statting out famous fictional characters.

5) Not necessarily as strong, but certainly as capable. Naturally, there are situations where one archetype is better than the other (i.e. the "normal" guy will have a hard time dealing with super-tough foes, but will go through hordes of weaker enemies like a knife through butter.

Winterwind
2008-07-25, 09:26 AM
I'm only familiar with the third edition of ShadowRun, and while it's more heavy on mechanics and rules than I usually prefer (though still less so than D&D, or so I hear), I can most definitely recommend it. It takes the grim and gritty cyberpunk fantasies in the vein of Gibson's tales au Neuromancer, adds a dose of magic, and fascinatingly enough manages to mix them just fine.


Shadowrun1) How easy/hard is it to put together Shadowrun characters?The system offers a large amount of flexibility and customizability, especially cyberware-using characters have a lot of options open to them. The mechanics for doing so are very simple though; if one takes some time to create a character it's going to be because of the many possibilities, not because one cannot figure out how the system works.


2) What's this I hear about troll-sized elves and catgirls being in it O_o...?Either some plastic chirurgy (befitting a cyberpunk world - there are all kinds of freaks out there in the Sprawl...), or a metahuman variant (sounds kinda like a gross misrepresentation of Wakyambi and Night Ones respectively to me), which are subtypes of the usual races as introduced in purely optional supplemental books as an attempt to cover the respective mythologies of other cultures (Wakyambi, for example, being a reclusive African variant of elves), and not a part of your average ShadowRun round.


3) Is Shadowrun meant to be the twentieth-century of DnD, or are they merely similar?Neither. It's not related with any D&D world, it's not released by the same company (or has ever been), and it is not similar. The description of the races, the way magic works, the role characters play within the world, the gameplay - not only in the mechanics' details, but also in how a typical mission looks like, or how big the lethality is - are all completely different.
Incidentally, it's not 20th century either. It is a cyberpunk world - corporations being everything while trampling the individual with both feet, people losing theirselves to strange new forms of entertainment, hedonism blossoming amongst the higher classes, while the streets erupt in violence and poverty.


4) Same as question 3 for M&M.I can't really answer this one, since I haven't had any players who actively tried to break the system, but I'll put it this way - it's hardly possible for a single character to fulfill every role at once. Team work is the key. And no matter how min-maxed ShadowRun characters end up, they remain mortals. And they'd better be aware of their own mortality, too, lest they end up drifting in the gutter or grinded to Soylent Green.


5) How hard is it to homebrew things like rocket-propelled chainsaws (juist for fun XD)?See DrowVampyre's answer to this one. :smallbiggrin:


Another question I have, though: WHICH BOOKS DO I GET OF MnM AND Shadowrun :smalleek:!?!? I looked them up on the internet, and I got quite a stream of available books... At the moment, I only want to Bear Necessities, by the way (if there is a supplement book which makes everything 500% better, consider it a necessity).Again, I can only speak about the 3rd edition, but the core rulebook is perfectly enough to play the game (okay, so if somebody wanted to play a rigger the Rigger 3 might be rather useful - it's the one archetype that is offered somewhat less options in the core book alone - but even that would work). There are a few books that give a lot of nice additional options to the players, but not necessary in the least.

Destro_Yersul
2008-07-25, 10:22 AM
What they said. I'm running my game using only the Shadowrun 4th core book. These guys apparently decided they didn't want people to need to buy 3+ books just to play the game, so they put plenty of everything in just the one.

Even riggers. There's a decent number of options for them, and one of the pre-built sample characters is a rigger.

DeathQuaker
2008-07-25, 11:45 AM
Completely randomly, I was buying M&M in the Barnes and Noble the other day, and the gal at the checkout counter asked me what I thought of it (I like it so far, but I'm just learning it). When I asked her what systems they'd been playing lately, she mentioned Shadowrun 4 and her group thought it wasn't very good (her example was, "Don't you think a cyberpunk game should have rules for how to deal with the Internet)?

But obviously folks here like it; just passing that tidbit along.

Conners
2008-07-25, 12:19 PM
Hey, I had an interesting idea: Combining Shadowrun and Mutants and Masterminds :smallbiggrin:. The setting will be homebrewed (as though I'd have a campaign I'm running any other way) in a setting similar to SR only with Superbeings.

My first campaign in such a setting, would be that the players are henchmen for a powerful Super Villain, and go around doing his minor chores for a while. Then, they are hit by nuclear deathrays (turning them into Dead-Glowing-Skeleton-Who's-Nuclear), or a god comes down as say, "Hey nubz, im totly gonna give you uberpwer n stuff lols!" (they then become the Guardians of "Die nubletz! all ur base belong to uz lols!"), or they find out that they were bitten by a radioactive screwdriver (thus becoming Radioactive-Tool-Shed-team!), or something like that (as you can guess, I generally hold the explanation for how the heroes get their powers in low regard).

What do you think?

Oslecamo
2008-07-25, 12:28 PM
So, let me see if I got this right about M&M from what people posted here:

1-It allows you to build any kind of character, as long as it isn't something really powerfull.

2-It's really balanced, as long as the DM keeps an eye for broken combinations and the players don't try to cheese the rules.

Ok, what did I miss here?

Winterwind
2008-07-25, 01:40 PM
What do you think?Sounds potentially interesting, I doubt it would preserve much of ShadowRun's feeling though. Being a superhero is, kinda, the exact opposite of "You are a punk fighting for sheer survival in the urban jungle, and the world is a s***ty place controlled by the corps, where any random scum with a revolver could reduce you to a sack of organs to be sold at the next street doc, chum".

Project_Mayhem
2008-07-25, 04:34 PM
1-It allows you to build any kind of character, as long as it isn't something really powerfull.


Nah, it's point based, innit. Basically it alows you to build any kind of character, including something really powerful. However, the DM sets the power level and that sets the points you can send.

Ie. power level 8-10 is the basic assumption, about average superhero level. 1-2 is you or me. Around 5-6 is badass normals who arent in Cap' or Batmanman league, or low powered supers, like most of the Heroes cast. 15-16 is Superman or Hulk. 20 is, I don't know, Galactus, or Chuck Norris or something.

Thats not exactly the case, as you can interpret characters as more or less powerful, but it should be about right.

DrowVampyre
2008-07-26, 04:09 AM
Completely randomly, I was buying M&M in the Barnes and Noble the other day, and the gal at the checkout counter asked me what I thought of it (I like it so far, but I'm just learning it). When I asked her what systems they'd been playing lately, she mentioned Shadowrun 4 and her group thought it wasn't very good (her example was, "Don't you think a cyberpunk game should have rules for how to deal with the Internet)?

But obviously folks here like it; just passing that tidbit along.

There...are rules for it dealing with the 'net. A whole chapter, in fact. >_> <_< 35 pages dedicated exclusively to the Matrix (which is the 'net of Shadowrun). And then a whole sourcebook expanding on it. So...yeah, I'd say they have that particular part of the game covered pretty well. :smallwink:

Oslecamo
2008-07-26, 05:07 AM
Around 5-6 is badass normals who arent in Cap' or Batmanman league, or low powered supers,

Isn't Cap overbursting with body enanching drugs?

Anyway thanks for the rules clearing.

Xuincherguixe
2008-07-26, 05:53 PM
If you go with 4th edition Shadowrun

All you really need is the main rulebook. It covers pretty much everything you'd need. It's been awhile since I've really looked, so I don't know if they have a Matrix or Rigging book yet.

Augmentation is a book about various implants (there's more than just metal you can install) you can take, but I haven't read through it yet so I can't say if it's good or not. Probably something you'd want if your game will include lots of Cyborgs. (Which it should ^_^)


Street Magic is absolutely wonderful. I cannot overstate this. There are rules for making your own spells, has some new spirits and magical traditions. Everyone in Shadowrun can pick from the same spell list (that spell list being "all of the spells"), but they might summon different sorts of spirits. Traditions are mostly a philosophy thing. And you can make your own as well. Maybe your character worship the corporations themselves. And when you travel to spiritual realms (if I explained all this the post would get huge) instead of having conversations with talking animals, you would sit in a cubicle and attend meetings. If you demonstrated your worth as an employee, you would get a "promotion", and could cast more powerful spells.

It's a lot more than just rules. It also gets into what it's like being a magician in that world. The general public is basically completely wrong magic. It's is a mix obnoxious fans and bigots. And the bigots have a lot of political power. Even your friends probably think you're crazy because they don't hear when the squirrels you talk to talk back. It actually kind of sucks being able to shoot lightning and walk on water. Fortunately, the public doesn't know what a real magician looks like anyways(hint: they look like everyone else) so if you aren't doing anything too obviously magical they'll hand you the pamphlets explaining how sorcery is the work of the devil instead of shouting angry slogans.

If you do end up playing Shadowrun 4th edition, and you decide you like it, you should definitely get Street Magic.

Skyserpent
2008-07-26, 06:24 PM
If you can get past the HORRIFYING art in M&M2e you'll love it. No doubt.

Never played Shadowrun, but I hear good things.

Anyway, I've run a few M&M games, a personal favorite had a Cybernetically enhanced Ninja and an Ice Elemental who together, after about three months of saving the world accidentally landed a glacier in Mexico City and saved New York from Godzilla.

I was a very happy GM.

geez3r
2008-07-26, 09:12 PM
I can't comment on Shadowrun, but M&M just blows D&D out of the water IMO. Mutants and Masterminds is sheer awesome.


1) How well does the M&M system work for anime-style characters like Inuyasha and such?
2) Can you make characters as powerful as Goku and Vegeta--and if so, up to which saga?
3) Is there anywhere/way I could learn how to avoid players' attempts to make overpowered characters?
4) Is it possible to make all of the Superhero/villain characters (Venom, Spiderman, Superman, the Teen Titans, etcetera.)?
5) Is it balanced in a way that I can make a normal (non-mutant/alien/super-powered)person as strong as a mutant/alien/super-powered person?

1) With no exaggeration, M&M can emulate anything you want. It might not always be easy, but it can be done. Want proof for anime? Click me (http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?t=13171)

2) You can make characters as stupidly powerful as you want (hypothetically). The norm for characters is Power Level 8-12. For scale, Spider-man and most of the X-Men fall into this range, Superman and the Hulk are usually represented as 15 ish or so. The last Goku build I saw put him at 33 or so. I've seen a build for Tengen Toppa Gurrent Lagann even, and if you don't know what that is, immediately look for the anime/manga of the same name and watch the entire series; it's 27 episodes of unbridled awesome.

3) The books themselves have fielded this bit. For a lot of the powers, there is a small section called "under the hood" where they explain what the powers do and do not do, and what to watch out for. Ultimate Power (see below) has a chapter dedicated to figuring out how to model powers accurately, and without making over powered one.

4) Most definately. At the atomicthinktank, the official forums for M&M, there is an entire board dedicated to people creating their own conversions of popular characters, as well as posting their originals. Don't belive me, see for youself (http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?t=25576).

5) Yes and no. If you were to create a team of PL 10 characters (which is the norm) your batman-esque character will be able to keep pace with all the other mutants and aliens and what have you for the entirety of the campaign. That being said, there's really nothing a Batman can directly do to the Hulk for instance, but the Hulk will never touch the Flash. So long as you're aware of your team's strengths and weaknesses when building an encounter, there should be no problem. For example, if everyone on the team has a bad Will save, be careful of sending a powerful mentalist after them. Each character will have their own strengths and weaknesses, just make sure you give all of them time to shine.


For books:

Get the 2E core book, obviously, and the only supplement you "need" is Ultimate Power. It takes the chapter on powers in the core book and expands it to a bit over 200 pages. Essentially this book goes into major, major depth about all the powers there are, while introducing new ones, shows you all the ins and outs of power creation, points out a few problem powers and how to reign them in, etc. Most fans consider UP part of the core because its so good.

On character creation:

The GM sets a power level limit on the game, and a Power point limit at character creation. Power Limit as the name implies, sets a cap for any and all of a character's abilities. Then you can trade-off your caps so you can tweak you accuraccy with your damage (raise one lower the other) and the same for defense and toughness (dodging and "hit points" essentially). Power points are the points you can spend on your character, you can't go over this amount. Also, if you're feeling stuck, chapter 1 of the book has 13 ready to go archetypal characters, from a batman, to a superman, to a hulk, to a flash, to a professor x (not the actual characters just the archtypes they represent).


The Hero Point and Extra Effort ideas cannot be over stressed. They turn a good system into a great system. One of the most amazing fights I was a part of had Hero Points flying every where. It allows for great versatility, a "mechanic" to reward creative player, a way for a GM to move the story along, and a way for heroes to rise to the challenge, all in one.

Conners
2008-07-30, 08:07 PM
The last Goku build I saw put him at 33 or so.

I've seen a build for Tengen Toppa Gurrent Lagann even, and if you don't know what that is, immediately look for the anime/manga of the same name and watch the entire series; it's 27 episodes of unbridled awesome. ...... You can blow up the planet and solar system, at PL 33 :smalleek:.....? Seriously?

Yes, I've seen the first part of it. I'm up to the bit where it zooms into the future and they're grown up (Kamina is the greatest character ever :smallbiggrin:).

Beleriphon
2008-07-31, 12:04 AM
...... You can blow up the planet and solar system, at PL 33 :smalleek:.....? Seriously?

Yes, I've seen the first part of it. I'm up to the bit where it zooms into the future and they're grown up (Kamina is the greatest character ever :smallbiggrin:).

You can do it at PL1 with enough ranks of the progression power feat and enough failed saves technically. :smallbiggrin:

Pauwel
2008-07-31, 04:34 AM
Insubstantial 1 (Attack +0, Affects Objects Only +0) can turn an entire planet into water by the literate interpretetation of the rules.

Sebastian
2008-07-31, 05:11 AM
If you can get past the HORRIFYING art in M&M2e you'll love it. No doubt.


True, 1st ed was much better in that.
And iconic characters. 1st ed had interesting example characters (both heroes and villain) with cool concepts, something that I'd have liked to read real comics about, 2ed is the League of Bland Superheroes (and villains). :smalltongue:

Really if you can find a 1ed book at a discount I'd consider buying it only for the art, "fake" panel comics inside included, and the iconic characters.

Attilargh
2008-07-31, 05:20 AM
Didn't the iconics get moved to the Freedom City campaign setting?

Sebastian
2008-07-31, 07:40 AM
Didn't the iconics get moved to the Freedom City campaign setting?

No, Freedom city is a different setting.

The pugilist, protonik and C. were a from the meta-4 setting but I don't think they made books about it.

Or at least this is how I remember.

Oslecamo
2008-07-31, 08:37 AM
Insubstantial 1 (Attack +0, Affects Objects Only +0) can turn an entire planet into water by the literate interpretetation of the rules.


Oh, so it is like D&D after all.

Pauwel
2008-07-31, 11:57 AM
Oh, so it is like D&D after all.

It's a trick equivalent to taking actions while dead in D&D because the "Dead" status says nothing about not being able to move.

And no, it is not like D&D. At all.

BizzaroStormy
2008-07-31, 12:23 PM
Ok here is why M&M, IMO, is the best d20 game. You can make ANYTHING you want. It doesn't have to be a superhero deal. While humans are the base race, a couple augments here and there and you can have anything you want. Your power level can go as high as you want, even 9000 and beyond, however that would take a rediculous amount of time to create a character,

Moofin Bard
2008-07-31, 12:37 PM
I personally can't say anything about M&M but I've heard good things.

But for Shadowrun, I can say a lot. It's a very good game if your GM makes a good enough setting. I can't stress this fact enough though: You have to read the entire rulebook and know what you're doing. You also have to make sure your players know what they are doing with their characters. First time I played a character I played a Technomancer (person with a mind link to the internet and electronics) and I was so confused. Not a good thing to pick first off unless you've studied it. But Shadowrun is really fun because you're not fighting kobolds and orcs, you're fighting human guards with guns.

Zirak
2008-07-31, 03:05 PM
I realize you asked this question a few days ago, and have gotten quite a few good answers, but I'd like to throw in my two cents, as I play both.

There are two main differences between M&M and SR - flavor and crunch.

Now, M&M is all about making a game in d20 that has the feeling and action of a comic book. You can do amazing things that would be world-shattering in traditional DnD, like fly 500 mph or attack your foes with magnetized train tracks. Everything is streamlined so that the action keeps a fast pace and gets resolved in KER-POW! fashion.

As for streamlining - you really don't need to know that much. You got your d20 roll. You add your attack. Your DC for damage is 15 + power level. Either they save or they take increasing condition modifiers by every five that they fail. If you can describe an application of you power that was unforeseen but that your DM agrees makes sense, you can do it.

Combat is showy and fast. Things either go really well, or they go badly - and it's both cinematic and fairly quick. It, as far as rules goes, is not very crunchy at all. That's ok! It means you get to beat down more supervillains for your time.

Shadowrun is a different beast. It is not d20. It's its own wacky, class-less, level-less system based on the humble d6. SR4 takes place in 2070, and tries (and succeeds, for the most part imho) at taking the modern world as we know it, adding magic and trying to come up with a plausible world containing what might happen with corps and crime, politics and race. And Bug Spirits taking over Chicago. Don't go there.

Shadowrun is rules crunchy. It can seem like a mouthful of ten-penny nails. SR4 is actually pretty streamlined from 3rd, which is like saying that breaking 70% of the bones in your body is actually better than the alternative. But I mean that in the best possible way.

Do you want to control a harrier jump jet with your mind? You can do that. It offers a wealth of sci-fi and fantasy blended possibility that I feel can't be afforded by other systems. And the vanity, that you are a no-face, no-name criminal leading a life of crime in the underworld of Seattle, running, gunning, stealing and lying for the hire of those self-same corps that are probably the reason you live off the grid, well, it's that future noir grittiness that I just can't get enough of.

Beleriphon
2008-07-31, 03:23 PM
Ok here is why M&M, IMO, is the best d20 game. You can make ANYTHING you want. It doesn't have to be a superhero deal. While humans are the base race, a couple augments here and there and you can have anything you want. Your power level can go as high as you want, even 9000 and beyond, however that would take a rediculous amount of time to create a character,

As an addendum to the above.

Mutants and Mastermids is marketed as a superhero RPG is can and does do other styles very very well. You just need to adjust your expectations. A fairly fun and gritty fantasy setting can be run fairly easily at around PL6 and so can a superspy genre game.

Because the system is effects based, that is ranged damage from a bullet, fireball, or optic blast, you resolve all things the same way. The effects can have modifiers, but in the end effects are more affected by the description than the actual rules.

thegurullamen
2008-07-31, 03:25 PM
Do you want to control a harrier jump jet with your mind? You can do that.

A) Sig'd.

B) To me, the difference between Shadowrun and M&M is this: which movie was the ultimate superhero movie, The Incredibles or The Dark Knight?

nhbdy
2008-07-31, 05:10 PM
I saw this thread, and i think i might be interested in switching from D&D, SR looks neat, but i don't think my players would be up to it, and i was thinking about M&M, so far you haven't said anything bad about it, is there anything that i would need to watch out for?

Beleriphon
2008-07-31, 05:52 PM
I saw this thread, and i think i might be interested in switching from D&D, SR looks neat, but i don't think my players would be up to it, and i was thinking about M&M, so far you haven't said anything bad about it, is there anything that i would need to watch out for?

Because it lets you build absolutely anything you want you need to be wary of certain combinations. For example a power that lets you summon 1000+ duplicates of the character, en masse, all of them heroic. This is entirely possible within the rules, although the worst rules abuses have a sidebar that explains how it can ruin a game.

Zirak
2008-07-31, 11:48 PM
I was thinking about M&M, so far you haven't said anything bad about it, is there anything that i would need to watch out for?

Well, things can go to pieces pretty quickly. I mean, you fail your save and BOOM! The mech suit housing your fragile brain (which is all that's left of you after the terrible cancer which ate away your body) is suddenly sparking and dropping pieces and you need to retreat or die. You can't go unconscious, you're a brain in a suit. It can happen pretty fast. I continue to be a little appalled.

Ograbme
2008-08-01, 01:13 AM
M&M has stats for Hitler. Need I say more?

thegurullamen
2008-08-01, 01:17 AM
M&M has stats for Hitler. Need I say more?

I. Am. SOLD.

How much is the basic handbook?

Hunter Noventa
2008-08-01, 01:59 AM
M&M sounds like a simple, d20 version of the HERO System. I have a friend who swears bythe HERO System but I can't get past some of the really strange mechanics (somethign about adding 11 to every roll you make or some BS).

Could anyone tell me if M&M is better? Because It sounds like an intriguing system from what I've read so far.

Sebastian
2008-08-01, 03:47 AM
M&M sounds like a simple, d20 version of the HERO System. I have a friend who swears bythe HERO System but I can't get past some of the really strange mechanics (somethign about adding 11 to every roll you make or some BS).

Could anyone tell me if M&M is better? Because It sounds like an intriguing system from what I've read so far.

IMHO M&M have 90% of HERO flexibility with 10% of HERO complexity (maybe 20% for 2e).

sombrastewart
2008-08-01, 08:39 AM
I would argue it's still 10% of the complexity in 2e, it's just in different spots.

Pauwel
2008-08-01, 10:12 AM
I would argue it's still 10% of the complexity in 2e, it's just in different spots.

I don't see any place where 2e is more complex than 1e. I never really played, 1e, though, but I have read the rules.

geez3r
2008-08-02, 12:32 PM
M&M is very simple and intuitive. The "downall" of M&M is that it is point buy, so there is a bit of focus on getting the most power with the fewest number of points to spend. Some of the powers can be stupidly broken, but thankfully the books warn you about several of them. The character creation process can be quite in depth, but that comes with the territory of a supers game in most cases. Also, certain powers can be difficult to emulate unless you're familiar with the system. What I would recommend is that everybody come to the first session with only a concept, and a few numbers in their mind, nothing concrete. Then walk everyone through the character creation process together, and give them all a once over at the end of the process. Once you get all the numbers down however, and get rid of all the velveeta, the system is really straight forward and just needs d20s.

Kyeudo
2008-08-02, 08:03 PM
You people are evil. I drop in here, just browsing, and now I have Mutants and Masterminds on order. You should be ashamed of yourselves. :smallwink:

wodan46
2008-08-02, 09:20 PM
The one thing that annoys me is that M&M still has ability scores, skill ranks, feats, and powers, all seperate and full of detail, and could really take some tips from 4e. For example, they could've converted things like Feats into Martial Powers, pooled skills together, and otherwise simplify minor details that were really little more than leftovers from the original D&D system.

Cainen
2008-08-02, 11:34 PM
No way. Feats ala M&M and powers ala 4E are considerably different. M&M all but requires the granularity of a point-by-point skill system because of what it's meant to do.

M&M's powers are more granular and modifiable by default - they are not 4E's powers, and honestly kind of what I'd have preferred 4E's powers to be. Comic book superheroes are extremely varied, and there's very little chance of pushing 4E's system to do what M&M's does without heavy abstraction, homebrewing, and pushing to make the system fit instead of having a snug fit from the getgo.

In fact, I'd rather have had 4E play exactly like M&M instead. At least there'd be less people bugging me to play something that I don't like and less people forcing edition changes out of left field when it was a hassle to get me to play 3E in the first place.

That said, M&M isn't very detail-oriented, and as such it'll never catch the feel of playing Shadowrun with its own system without heavy homebrewing and attention to every single detail. I'd never suggest using M&M to imp Shadowrun - it doesn't work.

Beleriphon
2008-08-03, 12:12 AM
The one thing that annoys me is that M&M still has ability scores, skill ranks, feats, and powers, all seperate and full of detail, and could really take some tips from 4e. For example, they could've converted things like Feats into Martial Powers, pooled skills together, and otherwise simplify minor details that were really little more than leftovers from the original D&D system.

You can make feats powers, in fact most of them are powers but only cost 1 point each.