[4e] Why do my players DODGE conflict?

[Dragor]

Right, so I recently just purchased the PHB and MM after anticipating 4th Edition greatly for a while now. I love how it's turned out, I rolled a few characters, etc. I got my friends together and we decided we'd get a game rolling. I offered to DM because I'd read it the most and basically had memorised it (and I had a line of quests in mind).

The premise: it's very simple, this is only level 1 anyway. The villagers of Berry, on the far west of the feudalistic Human kingdom I designed, have hired the PC's to rid them of their Goblin problem in the nearby mine, because they need the iron to survive as a village (it is practically their only trade surplus; they barely have enough food to eat). The PC's agree to do this.

First Day: the PC's organise the village, and assemble those who are able to do manual labour and fight. After grabbing forty or so, one of the PC's tells them to build pitfalls and traps outside the village palisade. Fair enough, I thought. The Halfling Wizard, being a senile old man, potters around a bit doing nothing. The Elf Ranger, rather daringly, goes to the Goblin mine to sneak around and see their defences.

He sees several Goblin patrols, kills the obvious patrol leader of one group, and flees back to the village.

Day Two is where it gets bad.

Day Two: The PC's seem adamant that they're not going to take the Goblins on head on. Again, fair enough, but it does make for more exciting DM'ing, use of the battlegrid, and letting the PC's get into the groove of their powers and letting me know what their playstyle for 4th Ed is going to be like.
In what is probably a poor decision, I decide to send the Goblin tribe (numbering forty or so) over to the village for 'diplomatic talks'. What they really want to do, however, is coax out the village elder so they can kill him, invoking the PC's wrath.

(NOTE: Yes, you can call this railroading. It is. This quest was merely intended to be the truckstop on the highway to fun.)

The PC's- specifically, the Human Fighter- decided that they should sort it out diplomatically. The humans of the village (IE- all of them) exclaimed they would not work with the little pests, who had taken their land which they'd rightfully bought, calling the Goblins evil. The Goblins said they wouldn't work with humans, because they 'lived to betray' and that the mine had been their tribal right given to them by the gods.

By this point, I had to go home. The human Fighter player, just as I was about to leave, started laughing hysterically, exclaiming to me, "We really ruined your quest, didn't we?" I almost felt like giving him the finger and storming off, but I smiled as much as I could and left, an angry man.

My point is: what's the point of waiting for players to make combat-specific PC's, with NO ranks in Diplomacy between them, when all they're going to do is go out on a limb, determined to go off the beaten track constantly to put a spanner in the works? There's creative play, and then there's being douchebags to annoy the DM just because he made a quest- as proven by the comment by Mr. Human Fighter.

I'm very possibly over-reacting. But between the Hafling Wizard being a useless ****, the Human Fighter of Diplomacy, and the Elf Ranger of 'Oh-I-Wish-I-Was-Dante-Or-Possibly-Nero' (from Devil May Cry, that is! It'd be a sorry state of affairs if it wasn't), I was at the end of my tether. NOW I know why I stopped playing 3.5 with my friends. I was hoping 4th Ed would be a change. Apparently not. I'm not blaming 4th Ed, I'm just disappointed with my group.

Sorry for the rant. Feel free to smack me with a glove and challenge me to a duel.

Or Icky Thump! me.

Your choice. :smallbiggrin:

[Deepblue706]

I think you're looking into Mr. Fighter's comment the wrong way. I think that he realized he was "ruining" things because of your reaction to what happened. It doesn't necessarily mean that was his goal.

Really, I don't see the problem here. I might have done the same as any of these players, myself. Sometimes it sucks that things don't go according to plan, but hey - this is what comes with being a DM.

[disorder]

I read the story several times...I'm still not seeing the problem.

[Gnomish Lab]

But doing things in a way that the DM did not foresee is half of what the game is about! :smallbiggrin:

[Mastikator]

Honestly, I'd kill for players like that. I love players that take charge of the quest like that rather than just passively move alongside the railroad.

[Dragor]

I think you're looking into Mr. Fighter's comment the wrong way. I think that he realized he was "ruining" things because of your reaction to what happened. It doesn't necessarily mean that was his goal.

Really, I don't see the problem here. I might have done the same as any of these players, myself. Sometimes it sucks that things don't go according to plan, but hey - this is what comes with being a DM.

I understand this, and I can understand your view. But this was really a primer quest; one to let the PC's understand their abilities (as well as myself; I have not even had a spat of combat experience with 4th Ed yet) rather than simply rolling Intimidate checks to make the leaders agree.

This sounds selfish on my part, but the Wizard especially was getting bored and wanted something interesting to happen- he himself is quite an impatient player, and likes it when the action was flowing. Now this does sound like an excuse, but the quest seemed perfect to keep him interested, the Ranger happy with doing a few cool tricks and acrobatics, and the Fighter generally kicking ass.

I know it's a perfectly realistic response. In fact, they're (mostly) Good, so this is the sort of thing to do. I may just need to go back and rethink it.

It just threw me a bit, you know? I know that sort of thing happens, and that I've heard the general advice is to say 'let me time out, and sort this out'. I don't know why, but that just isn't viable to me. It makes ME look like a bit of a fool for not expecting them to do it, and I don't like being a laughing stock. Plus, Team America was on TV and that was a large distraction. I WAS going to say, "Turn it off, guys," but that'd just make me look like a spoilsport.

[Torchlyte]

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask them to turn off the TV.

[Covered In Bees]

It sounds like you're part of the problem. You're too concerned about how you look to take a time out? To tell them to turn the TV off (this one's just BASIC)? I don't think you wound up looking very good despite that.

I mean, geez. They decided to sort it out diplomatically. This is great! Let them! Take two minutes to put together a complexity 2-3 "Starting Negotiations" skill challenge to convince the goblins and the humans to talk things out! Let them try and come up with a solution that makes everyone happy!

Of course, no solution makes everyone happy, so you splash in some action in the form of goblins trying to assassinate their chief (for negotiation with the humans, which is "weak") or the PCs. Do the players want to side with the existing chieftain, who's willing to negotiate, and protect him while they convince him to work with the humans? Do they want to strike a deal with his son, who agrees to make peace with the humans (with much smaller demands than the existing chief) if the players assassinate his father and bring him back the crown (to make him the chieftain)? Do they encourage infighting among the goblins to set them at each others' throats and then wipe them out? What are the humans doing in the meantime?

And as this happens, you figure out (after the end of the session) how to work the other stuff you were railroading them towards in for future sessions.

Instead, you pretty much called the game because they decided to step off your railroad tracks. Players don't like being railroaded. Part of being a good DM is learning to adapt. Another part is working in the things you had planned despite the players doing whatever it is they are, just slightly altered to fit the situation.

Here's an idea for you, on top of actually running some damn negotiations. Maybe the goblins think the mine is given to them by their deity because there's some object they consider a relic of their god in there, but the religious wing of their tribe refuses to move it. Voila, the PCs now have the option to wade into the mine, massacre the fanatical goblins with Scorching Bursts and Twin Strikes, bring back the fingerbone of Saint Ghurble the Goblin or whatever, and make it into a pretty necklace for the chief, who will then relinquish the claim to the mine in exchange (let's say that havng the fingerbone gives him authority over the religious factions in his tribe he couldn't otherwise command). See what I did there? You're still getting to use all of your "goblins in the mine" combat encounters this way--you're just changing the reason to fit what the PCs are doing.

Fortunately, you have time to prepare for next session, so you can use some of this stuff. The bit of Cliche DMing Advice that applies here is to try and always say "yes" or "yes, but" rather than no. If the players aren't getting to do what they want, they're not going to enjoy the game as much (or even at all), and will instead get their fun by watching TV, talking about whatever games they play... or ******* around with you. "He wants to railroad us? This sucks. Let's see how we can wreck the train!"

[Kiara LeSabre]

You know, you can make them roll Diplomacy checks while they do all of this. Even if their reasoning is logically sound, their delivery may be utter, rotting garbage. Two people can tell the same joke and get totally different reactions from the same audience. Likewise, two people can deliver a would-be diplomatic speech and get totally different reactions.

If they wanted to be diplomats, maybe they should have built their characters accordingly?

That doesn't, of course, mean there's anything wrong with what they're doing, setting aside the fact that their characters aren't any good at it. Rather than fuss at them for trying to be creative, I'd take the opportunity to, in-game, demonstrate how their valiant efforts fail not necessarily because they tried to think outside the box but because they tried to do something their characters just aren't good at.

Who knows? Maybe in the future, they won't so readily ignore social skills. It could even eventually lead to more interesting, deep games.

[Frost]

You know, 4e seems like the perfect edition for you. I can see why you hated 3.5, I mean in that PCs had hundreds of ways of not being railroaded, now they only have a few.

Seriously, the only problem I see is that your players can't find a DM that doesn't want to just play Monster Den.

[Covered In Bees]

You know, 4e seems like the perfect edition for you. I can see why you hated 3.5, I mean in that PCs had hundreds of ways of not being railroaded, now they only have a few.

Except, wow, does this ever not have anything to do with the edition at hand.

[Tsotha-lanti]

But doing things in a way that the DM did not foresee is half of what the game is about! :smallbiggrin:

First rule of Gamemastering: Whatever you planned for, the PCs won't do it.

In this situation, though, you should have expected the results. You set them up for Seven Samurai, and that's what they did. They'll still get to fight - just on their terms - which is what smart people do anyway.

Edit: If you noticed a player wanted more action, and you wanted it yourself, why the heck didn't you provide it? You had a bunch of goblins ready to attack at any time. The power is yours, man - you're the DM.

[AKA_Bait]

First rule of Gamemastering: Whatever you planned for, the PCs won't do it.

In this situation, though, you should have expected the results. You set them up for Seven Samurai, and that's what they did. They'll still get to fight - just on their terms - which is what smart people do anyway.

Edit: If you noticed a player wanted more action, and you wanted it yourself, why the heck didn't you provide it? You had a bunch of goblins ready to attack at any time. The power is yours, man - you're the DM.

This. Also Covered In Bees gave you some very solid advice.

Basically you set up a situation where the PCs reacted in a reasonable and realistic way and now you are upset about it? Your players seemed to be following the railroad tracks... you just didn't seem to realize where those tracks were actually going. If you send people to negotiate, expect the PCs to attempt to... well... negotiate. If you ask them to defend the town... expect them to, you know, defend the town.

Of course, they might just hit the goblin delegation in the face with a flaming sphere anyway. My players have been known to do that. But then you get the combat you wanted right?

Also, turn the damn TV OFF! If your players are distracted because of TV or video games, and, given your comment about it being 'team america' and not wanting to turn it off yourself, you probaby were too, then you really have no one to blame. If you want to watch a movie with your friends, watch a movie. If you want to play D&D, play D&D. Either's fine. Just don't expect a functional session with both.

[Dragor]

You know, 4e seems like the perfect edition for you. I can see why you hated 3.5, I mean in that PCs had hundreds of ways of not being railroaded, now they only have a few.

Seriously, the only problem I see is that your players can't find a DM that doesn't want to just play Monster Den.

Thanks. Thanks a lot. This made me feel really, really great. You've added a lot to the matter at hand. [/sarcasm]

Thanks all (except for the one quoted above). I think I was unreasonable and in a bad mood. Covered In Bees, I love your suggestions. We're going to have another (longer) session tomorrow, so I'll put your ideas into practice, if you don't mind!

Thank you again all for the suggestions.

Another Edit: I'll let you know how it goes. I've been an OK DM in the past (I guess so, anyway). I was usually the one advocating AGAINST railroading, and there I was doing exactly that. I'm a total douche, plus hypocrite.

I'll let the Diplomacy go ahead. It's a happy-ever-after for both the Goblins and Humans if they succeed, and if they don't... well, spells will start flying, as well as body-parts, probably. But such is life.

[wodan46]

You know, if you really felt like it, you can just say that the goblins attack. The best way to do this is that during the negotiations, make it so that a goblin sniper or two tries to sneak up on the players or past the players and to the town leader. When the snipers are spotted or attack, all the other goblins attack as well, and you can have a nice little battle between the PCs with villagers supporting as minions and the 40 or so goblins. Make most of the goblins minions and the battle should run pretty easily.

[Arbitrarity]

I had a case with a PC party who wanted to attack the area they were starting in. Fun, but they didn't actually follow through. Luckily, I actually had statted out important NPC's in the area, and the defenses of the town, beforehand. :smallconfused:

[carowsell]

This will happen. . . there`s only one way to make them attack for sure. Attack them. . . have some rogue goblin huck a spear at him with sneak attack damage. That`ll spur them into action.

[Skjaldbakka]

Isn't it kinda silly for a 4E adventuring party to be at all concerned about a horde of goblins?

I was under the impression that 4E uses a mechanical representation of the reverse ninja rule.

[kamikasei]

Isn't it kinda silly for a 4E adventuring party to be at all concerned about a horde of goblins?

I was under the impression that 4E uses a mechanical representation of the reverse ninja rule.

If the horde are all regular goblins and not minions, or if they're minions but there are enough of them, then no.

[Bryn]

Isn't it kinda silly for a 4E adventuring party to be at all concerned about a horde of goblins?

I was under the impression that 4E uses a mechanical representation of the reverse ninja rule.

The monsters would only become weaker with numbers if the DM decided to use the minion rules to represent their relative frailty, which isn't necessarily a given. A big bunch of non-minion goblins is, naturally, a tougher threat than a small group of the same goblins.

In addition, every playtest I've seen has said that groups of minions are more threatening than the standard monsters, so I guess it's kind of an inverse inverse ninja rule :smalltongue:

[Alchemistmerlin]

What?!

Your players don't understand that anything with green skin is evil, tainted, and inferior which needs to be eliminated to make room for the superior races of the fantasy world?!

*shock*
*horror*
*smarm*
*sarcasm*

In all honesty, they did the right thing. You would have been better to simply have the goblins attack them when they came for "negotiations" if that's really how you wanted it to go down.

Also: TV during D&D? Seriously?

[valadil]

I think you need to trade players with this guy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85627).

[batsofchaos]

First off, I agree with the advice given here, but there's one point that was not touched on elsewhere that I feel is important enough to mention: talk to the players about what sort of game you are wanting to play. This mission was a springboard adventure; it was designed to get the players used to combat in 4e and introduce the general rules to move towards an actual campaign. Role-play and unique plans are to be encouraged in the campaign at large, but this was just a primer and that's all it was meant to be. Is there a reason why this couldn't be shared with the players? Let them know!

If they weren't on board and didn't care about testing the water on combat then they could have told you then and saved you the frustration; you could have gotten used to the idea of running the adventure without kid-gloves and it would have probably played more organically.

If they were on board for a hack-fest, well, there you go. It would have played out as such.Either way, everyone would have been on the same page and no one would have been frustrated or disappointed.

[Yakk]

Player Authorship.

Set up the world in a particular way. Have your possible path set up, and include clues.

When your players pick a different path, don't force them away from it. If you want your players to be heroic, make that new path seem like the right one all along. Make them seem clever for having figured out that attacking the Goblins would have been the wrong idea!

You can add in complications later on (it turns out that the Goblins made the deal, only to backstab the humans later), but by being flexible and making any non-stupid act of the players into a retroactively reasonable one by changing details of reality that they haven't experienced, you can get rid of railroad instincts.

The trick is not to make this too ridiculous.

You can also sit down and talk to your players about the theme of the campaign or adventure before hand, and agree on what kind of game they want to play. This is a different flavor of player authorship.

...

So they want to negotiate with the Goblins. Have it happen. Possible offers by the Goblins:
1> They are here besieging and negotiating with a different Goblin (or other monster-ish) tribe, which is deeper in the mine, and has something they want. Both tribes are here to get at an ancient relic of their people, which is located deep in the earth near the mine. If the PCs get the relic from the other tribe, or clear the other tribe out, this tribe will be happy to move on!

2> This territory was taken from the Goblins 10 generations ago (about 100 years), and they have returned to claim it. When their scouts approached, the human guards attacked them. The human village controls access to their ancient burial grounds. By taking over the mine, they hope to drive the humans away, and get access to their sacred burial grounds.

No, they won't tell you where the ancient burial grounds are.

3> The goblins are here to mine the mine, and send caravans south over the mountains to trade for their other resources. They need gather resources to pay a ransom to an Ogre tribe who is lording over their nest back home. The price the goblins get isn't that good, due to the long trade route, and the goblins are really good at mining compared to the humans...

...

The wonderful part of this kind of trick is that it makes the players think that you had an adventure planned that took their choices into account, while you get the feeling of making the game reality shift under their feet to it fits their footsteps!

[Dragor]

I think you need to trade players with this guy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85627).

Advocating that I don't like role-playing just because I wanted some combat seems a bit silly. I love role-playing as much as anyone who plays D&D. I make backgrounds, react as realistically as possible, and try to inject personality into my character. Thank you.

Hmm... one thing I do want to avoid is doing the 'The villagers are in fact evil, and the Goblins are the good guys' trick. I've played that one (albeit with different critters) a few times before, and I think the PC's will roll their eyes at me. :smallamused:

[Yakk]

Meh -- the Goblins can have an argument why they deserve to be there, and a way to non-violently get them out of there, without being "good".

And the villagers could still be "good" and innocent, even if the Goblins have a decent argument why they should be there.

If 100 years ago the Kingdom kicked the Goblins out, does that mean that the Goblins can come in and starve out the people? To the Goblins, it is justified -- but to the Villagers, all of whom where not involved in that war, it sucks!

Then toss in the Goblins doing a betrayal at some point (even if they have a reason to be here, doesn't mean they don't want all of these Humans dead dead dead), and you have a proximate reason for the PCs to kick some Goblin ass.

[Dragor]

Meh -- the Goblins can have an argument why they deserve to be there, and a way to non-violently get them out of there, without being "good".

And the villagers could still be "good" and innocent, even if the Goblins have a decent argument why they should be there.

If 100 years ago the Kingdom kicked the Goblins out, does that mean that the Goblins can come in and starve out the people? To the Goblins, it is justified -- but to the Villagers, all of whom where not involved in that war, it sucks!

Then toss in the Goblins doing a betrayal at some point (even if they have a reason to be here, doesn't mean they don't want all of these Humans dead dead dead), and you have a proximate reason for the PCs to kick some Goblin ass.

The argument so far for the Goblins is that the mine is their ancestral home, and their's by right. The humans need the mine to survive as a community.

The idea I came up with just now was to have a young injured Goblin guard manage to meet up with the entourage and tell the Goblin elder that... something has broken into the mine. Whether the PC's will encourage a union between the races so they can tackle it together, go it alone with guts for glory, or simply encourage an integration of the communities so they can gain extra surplus from other goods (this had been suggested by the Fighter), who knows?

Does that sound any good?

--MOAR edit--

I had this idea for a conversion of this thread, wanted to see if it was viable to edit this thread into this, or if I should create a new one.

"I've had the brainwave to make this thread a little less negative by making a 'Input Your Ideas Into My Game' thread. By no means put this on the account that I'm uninventive; well, okay, you can if you like. I thought it'd be an interesting element that, every week, I will take ideas from GitP'ers and put them into the game, and after every session I will tell you how your ideas went. Whether you're just experimenting with new ideas and want a test session but can't get a group together, or you're simply interested in general, post and I'll see if I can get the ideas in. I can only squeeze a certain amount in, though."

[Storm Bringer]

if they want to talk, and you want them to fight, then I can see several options and ideas that may help:

The goblin leader is willing to negotiate, but has a problem: Several of the goblin warriors in his band are tempory members lured by the prospect of loot. He needs to provide some form of saleable rward to those members if he is to get them to leave without a fight.

A senoir member of the tribe is the sibling of the goblin the ranger killed before. He wants blood money at least, or prefferably the rangers head on a plate.

the goblins are simply after Iorn ore. If the players can talk the village into it, they would settle for leaving with the processed pig iorn in the village and let them have the mine back. the downside is the village would loose trade for a while as it would have no ready stock of iorn for sale.

The goblins have been forced out of their previous home by an expanding goblin warlord. if the players can help them defeat this warlord, they would happily return to their former lands.

the talks take place, but a young goblin, seeking glory, attacks the players and forces a fight agianst the will of the chief. (this may be seen as a cop out option, so beware).


edit: it might be possible to reach a stable end state with the goblins in the mine. If the smelting and refining elements of the the iorn working trade were in the village (where they could access a stream for a waterwheel), then a trade link could be set up, with the villagers buying the unrefined ore of the goblins, smelting it, then selling some the processed pig iorn back to goblins. that lets them keep the mine and the villages have a livlyhood.

[elliott20]

I'm curious how the second session will go. A lot of it you're gonna just have to learn to not take personally. The players are probably honestly trying their best to resolve a situation. they saw an opening, they took it.

you've already got plenty of good advice here so I won't repeat it. run with what they chose, make it difficult, throw in complications, and see how they react. Interactive story telling, my friend.

[erikun]

Okay, I am NOT typing all that out again. Needless to say, I think this is a great opportunity for you to add something interesting into your game. As I've said before: don't let the PCs' odd actions cause you problems; let them cause problems for your PCs to fix!

[Viruzzo]

I've had the brainwave to make this thread a little less negative by making a 'Input Your Ideas Into My Game' thread. By no means put this on the account that I'm uninventive; well, okay, you can if you like.
Don't worry, being a good DM does not necessarily mean you can't steal (or ask for) good ideas, the whole point of the game is to have the best experience possibile. :smallwink:

Adding to the extremely good advices given above, creative players stimulate creative DMing, just make sure that when they circumvent your plans:
- you don't force them back in, unless you really need to railroad them a bit, and in that case you need to be really subtle
- you make sure that their actions have appropriate consequences
What's most important is that even if they catch you unprepared and undestand it, you prepare yourself not to fall for it a second time.

Also, diplomacy is fine until it is used against you: what if the goblin decide to make a deal with the humans that involves handing out one or more of the PCs? Maybe a non-human one, preferably of a dislikeable race (from human PoV).

[Moff Chumley]

I like the 'goblins being forced out of their homelands by war-chief' shtick.

[SadisticFishing]

Heh, wow, I didn't expect you or 4e to get nearly this torn apart.

Personally, I'd have decided beforehand if the goblins were diplomacy-able.

And I'd probably have said no. THen, if they tried to diplomacy, first thing - Insight checks. Not sure how I'd set this up.

Second, RAWR! Surprise Attack!

Goblins are NOT nice people. Things.

[Yakk]

The Alarm goes up!

A tattered, wounded rider arrives. She was on a morning scout ahead of a caravan (which had encamped at an old tower), when the caravan was attacked by goblins riding wolves.

She thinks most of the members of the caravan (and some of their goods) are holed up in the ruined tower, a few hours ride away.

The Goblin negotiators claim "those are not our tribe! Different tribe!" They are not telling the truth -- it was a warrior band from their tribe who saw some easy plunder, and decided to attack.

The players are asked to go rescue the caravan.

Random attached events:
1> The warpaint of the Goblins isn't obviously the same as the paint on the negotiators (Paint is a caste thing among goblins [Knowledge: Nature]). The ritual scarring is, however, the same (Perception to notice that the scars are the same, [Knowledge: Religion] to know that each tribe scars the symbol of their protecting spirit into their goblins).

2> The wolves in question are black with white feet. The wolves in the goblin breeding pen are similar. (Finding the breeding pen?)

...

The negotiators ask for a meeting "not in human land". "You pick last, we pick next". The location is up-stream where there is "white rock". Each side is to bring "one hand and one finger" of people (6). [Insight check: Goblins are feeling clever about something]

The goblins are, naturally, cheating. There are 20 extra Goblins hiding nearby [Hard perception check].

Once there, goblin negotiators insist on going into a cave "too bright". If the players refuse, the goblins simply walk away. [Insight check: Goblin negotiators are nervous].

The Goblins plan to set a large fire at the mouth of the cave, and claim that they showed up, no humans where there, and then they had a bonfire to keep themselves warm.

If the players escape, the Goblins claim that their bonfire got out of hand, and that they are sorry!

...

The Goblins continue to raid nearby farms (it was not us!), stall on negotiations (while taking any deal that grants them advantage), and plan on starving the humans out.

If the caravan is rescued, the Goblins set up a force to claim the ruined tower, repairing it. "This will stop the raids" they say. After 1 month of work, the tower is much repaired. A barrier is set up on the road (a heavy log), and the Goblins start charging passing people for "security deposit".

...

Yet another farm house was found burned to the ground, with all of the women and children inside of it. The goblins say "we cannot stop other tribes from attacking!"

...

The goblins offer to sell iron to the villiagers, in exchange for food and weapons.

...

You catch the goblins offering to buy humans as slaves, in exchange for ore.

...

Goblins send a caravan over the passes, with iron ore in it.

...

The goblins are winning. They have no need to take the fight to the human settlement. Shut them down, drain them dry, and wait. Eventually the humans will get weak, or leave, or both.

[its_all_ogre]

nothing wrong with their reactions here.
number of questions about the goblin tribe arise: are they likely to be scared off by pcs?
they could agree to a truce which seems reasonable, wait until pcs leave then attack the town.
of course they hear of this sometime later.....
lots of good options mentioned above.

i like to use cause and effect a lot.
there is always a reason why people suddenly attack towns, knowing the reason enables me to understand what is acceptable and what is not in terms of diplomacy...
of course their terms could just be unacceptable...this is like real life and i find it not an issue at all.

[Dragor]

Okay, so I'm back! I couldn't find my own thread, which was a little worrying to say the least. But it's popped back on the radar! Huzzah!

The second session went brilliantly. The Halfling Wizard, first off, wasn't expecting much. He was playing Resident Evil 4. I managed to coax him off of it and started up from where we left off. I used my idea of the caves being invaded by something- I eventually decided on some drakes.

It went something like this:

Me: "In the middle of the talks, you hear the shrill screech of 'HELP! HELP! SOMETHING IN THE CAAAAAAAVES!' (I voice acted that bit.) As you look to the source of the sound, you realise it is a young goblin, dressed in a chain shirt about twice his size and wielding a rusty halberd."

The Elven Ranger set off almost immidiately, not caring for the negotiations. The Halfling had his reservations, but set off soon after. The Human Fighter stayed behind to make the leaders swear they would not kill each other. They agreed, and said that if the problem was dealt with, perhaps the Goblins and Humans would come to a peace settlement or at least a trade agreement. Satisfied with this, the Fighter set off after the other pair.

The Ranger, at first, was alone in the mine. I eased some tension into my dialogue at this point. I spoke at length of the disgusting smells and almost pitch blackness, and seeing creatures scuttling and hissing in the dark. The intrepid Ranger ventures further, hurling a torch into the darkness. The drakes (as we know them to be) are scared by the light, and scuttle away quickly. This gives the Ranger all the information he needs to know; there's more than one, and they don't like the light.

Being a brave soul, he goes towards the torch he threw. Almost immidiately, he's set on by the drakes. He rolls a modified 5- from a natural 1- on his roll. Oh dear! The drakes all roll above 10. The Ranger is suddenly regretting his move, but nevertheless he stands his ground quite well for the first round, not taking much damage and using his daily power to injure the whole lot of them.

(For reference, the group fought 3 Spiretop Drakes and 1 Guard Drake. Tough encounter, but I figured they'd manage it, being D&D veterans).

The Halfling Wizard, hearing all this action, goes in and sees the Ranger scrapping the Drakes! He gets stuck in, too, hurling (I think) a Force Orb. The Force Orb was devestating.

The Human Fighter arrives somewhat later, but manages to pull of a Cleave.

The Ranger gets knocked below 0 HP, but uses his Second Wind to get himself on 2 HP. I smile at him in a 'These things happen, urp!' way. The Guard Drake was tearing him apart.

The Halfling Wizard uses Melf's Acid Arrow. He misses, but I thought I'd use his use of an Acid Arrow to my advantage. I detailed that the arrow hit one of the pillars holding up the caves behind the fight, slowly eroding the foundation. The players look at each other nervously, already guessing my plan. They speedily kill the Drakes, and the Ranger stylishly jumps on the back of the Guard Drake, beheads it, and almost faints from his wounds.

(By this point, I was detailing the effects of their attacks lavishly.)

Combat ends! And a good combat it was, too. They worked together very well, my descriptions were lavish, and it was fast. Very enjoyable for everyone!

The pillar, by this point, has given way. The party makes an Atheletics (am I right?) Check to run out of the cave fast enough, the Fighter picking up the Halfling and putting him on her back. The Ranger fumbles again, though, and rolls a 1. Not his day. I detail that he trips on some debris, but may be able to make a leap out of the cave.

He rolls a 20 for that one. Luck well deserved!

So, they survive, barely. The Ranger managed to pacify and recover a drake because it was 'so cute' (we agreed on this. They are TOO cute). Getting back to the village and gently giving them the bad news, the Goblins and Humans agree to work together, the Goblins excavating the mine and selling the ore to the villagers, who refine it to make their trade. Everyone wins! A good session had by all. Berry that night holds a grand celebration of the 'Drakeslayers', their towns heroes.

And I have learnt a valuable lesson. Rewarding PC's justly also makes me feel fuzzy inside.

And so there you have it!

[Storm Bringer]

and their was much rejoicing!

[Dragor]

and their was much rejoicing!

Indeed. The Halfling Wizard actually said, "Let's play on!"

Moar warm fuzzy feelings.

[Kiara LeSabre]

Your GM Fu has become strong indeed.

Sounds like it went wonderfully. Well done. :smallsmile:

[ericgrau]

Huzzah! The game is saved!

[Dragor]

Your GM Fu has become strong indeed.

Sounds like it went wonderfully. Well done. :smallsmile:

GM Fu? Now there's the kind of martial art I could get into... throwing D20's as shuriken, learning the 5-Foot Step Maneuver...

Grasshopper, my CR is higher than yours, so you have no chance of succeeding.

What I mean is thank you for the kind words. :smallsmile:

[Storm Bringer]

Do not foget the mystical, nay, mythical maxim at the heart of DM Fu, often reffered to as 'Rule 0'. Many a challenger to the core concept of DM Fu ('We Are ALL Here To Have Fun') has fallen when faced with the sheer potential that proper understanding of this maxim allows.


seriously, though, what we can learn form this is that it's better to proscibe to the Darths and Droids (http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0001.html) school of Dm'ing (that is, rolling with the players and letting them drive the story) than it is to proscibe to the DM of the Rings (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=612) school (that is, railroad the players into your pre-written plans)

out of intrest, have you made any plans for your next adventure in 4th ed?

[nagora]

Right, so I recently just purchased the PHB and MM after anticipating 4th Edition greatly for a while now. I love how it's turned out, I rolled a few characters, etc. I got my friends together and we decided we'd get a game rolling. I offered to DM because I'd read it the most and basically had memorised it (and I had a line of quests in mind).

The premise: it's very simple, this is only level 1 anyway. The villagers of Berry, on the far west of the feudalistic Human kingdom I designed, have hired the PC's to rid them of their Goblin problem in the nearby mine, because they need the iron to survive as a village (it is practically their only trade surplus; they barely have enough food to eat). The PC's agree to do this.
So far, so good.


First Day: the PC's organise the village, and assemble those who are able to do manual labour and fight. After grabbing forty or so, one of the PC's tells them to build pitfalls and traps outside the village palisade. Fair enough, I thought. The Halfling Wizard, being a senile old man, potters around a bit doing nothing.
Your group has a senile old man in it? Hmmm...

The Elf Ranger, rather daringly, goes to the Goblin mine to sneak around and see their defences.

He sees several Goblin patrols, kills the obvious patrol leader of one group, and flees back to the village.
Still looking good: Seven Samurai here we come!


Day Two is where it gets bad.

Day Two: The PC's seem adamant that they're not going to take the Goblins on head on.
Wait! What? What were all the defensive works for?


Again, fair enough, but it does make for more exciting DM'ing, use of the battlegrid, and letting the PC's get into the groove of their powers and letting me know what their playstyle for 4th Ed is going to be like.
I'm still with you so far.


In what is probably a poor decision, I decide to send the Goblin tribe (numbering forty or so) over to the village for 'diplomatic talks'.

What they really want to do, however, is coax out the village elder so they can kill him, invoking the PC's wrath.

(NOTE: Yes, you can call this railroading. It is. This quest was merely intended to be the truckstop on the highway to fun.)
Well, you've certainly short-circuited the tension-building but it's not a totally unreasonable thing for the goblins to do, providing that they actually left SOME guards behind.


The PC's- specifically, the Human Fighter- decided that they should sort it out diplomatically. The humans of the village (IE- all of them) exclaimed they would not work with the little pests, who had taken their land which they'd rightfully bought, calling the Goblins evil. The Goblins said they wouldn't work with humans, because they 'lived to betray' and that the mine had been their tribal right given to them by the gods.
Fine. An empass. What are the players going to do to earn their pay? Because, whoever's paying the PCs gets to tell them what to do or clear out of town.

The villagers want the goblins cleared out; the goblins want to stay. The PC's opinions are not greatly valued here - they were not hired as advisors.


By this point, I had to go home. The human Fighter player, just as I was about to leave, started laughing hysterically, exclaiming to me, "We really ruined your quest, didn't we?" I almost felt like giving him the finger and storming off, but I smiled as much as I could and left, an angry man.
The scenario is not for the DM's benefit. The scenario is for the players' benefit. Calm down.


My point is: what's the point of waiting for players to make combat-specific PC's, with NO ranks in Diplomacy between them, when all they're going to do is go out on a limb, determined to go off the beaten track constantly to put a spanner in the works? There's creative play, and then there's being douchebags to annoy the DM just because he made a quest- as proven by the comment by Mr. Human Fighter.
Well, so far they've achieved exactly zero, so I'm not sure that you're the one being screwed over.


I'm very possibly over-reacting. But between the Hafling Wizard being a useless ****, the Human Fighter of Diplomacy, and the Elf Ranger of 'Oh-I-Wish-I-Was-Dante-Or-Possibly-Nero' (from Devil May Cry, that is! It'd be a sorry state of affairs if it wasn't), I was at the end of my tether. NOW I know why I stopped playing 3.5 with my friends. I was hoping 4th Ed would be a change. Apparently not. I'm not blaming 4th Ed, I'm just disappointed with my group.

Kill them. Simple as that. If they are acting as buffoons then show them what happens to buffoons who get in between a village of angry people and a tribe of goblins. This isn't a shopping trip to Tesco's; messing about will get them killed.

You are the DM and you have to role-play the NPCs as if they were your characters - what would they do? The goblins are evil, so they would enjoy playing the foolish PCs as dupes. The villagers are investing time and money in the PCs - they want some return on that and they'll only go so far with alternatives that don't give them what they need to survive. This is life or death for the village and possibly for the tribe too; if the PCs want to treat it as a joke then they may well wind up with slit throats, and not necessarily from the goblins!

And tell them to turn the damned television off!

[Eldran]

[Cut...]
But this was really a primer quest; one to let the PC's understand their abilities (as well as myself; I have not even had a spat of combat experience with 4th Ed yet)
[Cut...]


You could use some training scenarios outside of the ingame-storyline to try out any set of rules which seems unclear. Some fictive tavern-brawl or skill challenge using a group of pre-made PCs is perfect in order to allow the players to experiment a little and for you to field test things before the actual storyline begins.

[Kiara LeSabre]

So far, so good.


Your group has a senile old man in it? Hmmm...

Still looking good: Seven Samurai here we come!


Wait! What? What were all the defensive works for?


I'm still with you so far.


Well, you've certainly short-circuited the tension-building but it's not a totally unreasonable thing for the goblins to do, providing that they actually left SOME guards behind.


Fine. An empass. What are the players going to do to earn their pay? Because, whoever's paying the PCs gets to tell them what to do or clear out of town.

The villagers want the goblins cleared out; the goblins want to stay. The PC's opinions are not greatly valued here - they were not hired as advisors.


The scenario is not for the DM's benefit. The scenario is for the players' benefit. Calm down.


Well, so far they've achieved exactly zero, so I'm not sure that you're the one being screwed over.



Kill them. Simple as that. If they are acting as buffoons then show them what happens to buffoons who get in between a village of angry people and a tribe of goblins. This isn't a shopping trip to Tesco's; messing about will get them killed.

You are the DM and you have to role-play the NPCs as if they were your characters - what would they do? The goblins are evil, so they would enjoy playing the foolish PCs as dupes. The villagers are investing time and money in the PCs - they want some return on that and they'll only go so far with alternatives that don't give them what they need to survive. This is life or death for the village and possibly for the tribe too; if the PCs want to treat it as a joke then they may well wind up with slit throats, and not necessarily from the goblins!

And tell them to turn the damned television off!

Yeah, you're a little late. And he found a far, far better solution.

[nagora]

Yeah, you're a little late. And he found a far, far better solution.
Well, I was late, apparently, but his solution was basically what I was suggesting: he gave them something to make them get their fingers out or die trying. Personally, I think the drakes were a bit Deus Ex Machina and it would have been better (ie, more in keeping with the previous session's setup) to play the political game using just the goblins and villagers a bit more, but it sounds like it went fine.

Probably turning the TV off did the trick.

[Dragor]

Thanks for the suggestion, Nagora, but I've tried playing hard-ball with my players before. It didn't turn out so well.

Anyway- next session. I don't know when it's going to be, but I ended the last session with the local Duke of the province being interested in hiring them, and that his son was going to escort them to the capital.

Fair enough, I could just use that. They've still not levelled, and they have 475xp (for the Drakes and additionals for cool moves) each. The Fighter acquired the Goblin Chief's longsword- apparently, from his great-great-great grandfather Grik the Greater, who conquered the world and killed the Gods. Apparently. The Ranger has his pet drake/s. The Halfling Wizard... got nothing, because I couldn't think of anything. Still, he didn't seem to mind. I'll reward him with something in the near future to make up for that. (I don't mean 'Here, have a Ring of Three Wishes to coax you back in' sort of gift. I mean just keeping him on-par.)

I was thinking, however, of making the Prince a Doppleganger (possibly hired by the BBEG of this campaign, currently undecided) and the actual Prince is being held by insurgents in the Empire (Lordwyn only just recovered from internal unrest, the party being rebels themselves. It's all blown over- apparently- but if I use this hook, apparently not). This could lead to another quest.

However, a Level 3 standard Doppleganger probably isn't enough to take on the PC's properly. And I already detailed that the Prince was escorted by an armoured bodyguard. None of the bodyguard have been talked to or touched at this point, so I could say that they were all a strong illusion. I don't know how well that holds up, though.

Any suggestions?

My main aims are:

1) Advance the plot; introduce BBEG or at least some semblance of greater things at work, and get the PC's in on it.

2) Keep the Wizard on par. We all know Wizards don't rely as much on kit, as, say, the Fighter, but I want to keep him interested as well as satisfied that he's not being left out.

3) Give the PC's a substantial solo challenge on their way to the Province Capital, as well as gain them a little more prestige in this province. (Again, another idea was to allow them to possibly usurp/inherit this province at the end of Heroic Tier, or at least mid-way through Paragon.)

--EDIT--

Just saw your post, Storm Bringer. I laughed a lot. And I think the answer to your question, after this post, is a definite yes :smalltongue:

[turkishproverb]

The Alarm goes up!

A tattered, wounded rider arrives. She was on a morning scout ahead of a caravan (which had encamped at an old tower), when the caravan was attacked by goblins riding wolves.

She thinks most of the members of the caravan (and some of their goods) are holed up in the ruined tower, a few hours ride away.

The Goblin negotiators claim "those are not our tribe! Different tribe!" They are not telling the truth -- it was a warrior band from their tribe who saw some easy plunder, and decided to attack.

The players are asked to go rescue the caravan.

Random attached events:
1> The warpaint of the Goblins isn't obviously the same as the paint on the negotiators (Paint is a caste thing among goblins [Knowledge: Nature]). The ritual scarring is, however, the same (Perception to notice that the scars are the same, [Knowledge: Religion] to know that each tribe scars the symbol of their protecting spirit into their goblins).

2> The wolves in question are black with white feet. The wolves in the goblin breeding pen are similar. (Finding the breeding pen?)

...

The negotiators ask for a meeting "not in human land". "You pick last, we pick next". The location is up-stream where there is "white rock". Each side is to bring "one hand and one finger" of people (6). [Insight check: Goblins are feeling clever about something]

The goblins are, naturally, cheating. There are 20 extra Goblins hiding nearby [Hard perception check].

Once there, goblin negotiators insist on going into a cave "too bright". If the players refuse, the goblins simply walk away. [Insight check: Goblin negotiators are nervous].

The Goblins plan to set a large fire at the mouth of the cave, and claim that they showed up, no humans where there, and then they had a bonfire to keep themselves warm.

If the players escape, the Goblins claim that their bonfire got out of hand, and that they are sorry!

...

The Goblins continue to raid nearby farms (it was not us!), stall on negotiations (while taking any deal that grants them advantage), and plan on starving the humans out.

If the caravan is rescued, the Goblins set up a force to claim the ruined tower, repairing it. "This will stop the raids" they say. After 1 month of work, the tower is much repaired. A barrier is set up on the road (a heavy log), and the Goblins start charging passing people for "security deposit".

...

Yet another farm house was found burned to the ground, with all of the women and children inside of it. The goblins say "we cannot stop other tribes from attacking!"

...

The goblins offer to sell iron to the villiagers, in exchange for food and weapons.

...

You catch the goblins offering to buy humans as slaves, in exchange for ore.

...

Goblins send a caravan over the passes, with iron ore in it.

...

The goblins are winning. They have no need to take the fight to the human settlement. Shut them down, drain them dry, and wait. Eventually the humans will get weak, or leave, or both.


you....

you just designed a campaign...

[nagora]

However, a Level 3 standard Doppleganger probably isn't enough to take on the PC's properly. And I already detailed that the Prince was escorted by an armoured bodyguard. None of the bodyguard have been talked to or touched at this point, so I could say that they were all a strong illusion. I don't know how well that holds up, though.

Any suggestions?
I'm assuming that the "prince" is the son of the duke you mentioned.

Well, a doppleganger works by stealth rather than direct force, so the level is a non-issue at least for a while. That armoured bodyguard - they don't know the guy they're guarding is a fake, and will they take a bunch of "unwashed mercenaries'" word for it that he is? A lot depends on what side the party was on in the "trouble"; if they have a reputation as trouble makers (albeit useful ones to whoever is paying them) then they're going to have their work cut out for them making any headway with the "the Prince is a fraud" story.

If they have to do a lot of running around looking for political or magical backup for their claims then you can introduce them to other NPCs and plot strands: who's actually physically holding the real Prince? Why are they keeping him alive? Are they in charge or is the doppleganger? (hint: neither, they who thing is a plot instigated by a third party - either the BBEG or some other major power) What is their backup plan if their plot is revealed (sacrifice the doppie? sacrifice the party holding the Prince? Sacrifice both using assassins to stop them talking?) etc.

The main problem with the halfling wizard is this idea of him being senile; if you can sideline that and quietly reduce it to "forgetful" then he might be useful in gaining access to information that can prove the Prince a fake - royal birthmarks or things that the Prince would know that the doppie can't (dopplegangers can only read surface thoughts, so there's bound to be some stuff they can dig up).

In the meantime, of course, the power behind it all will take active measures to stop any "nosey kids" from interfering.

So: the Duke is a dupe or in on it for some reason, perhaps blackmail (perhaps that's why they're keeping the real prince alive as a lever on his father). The object is to get the doppleganger into the royal court as a spy/future usurper; the PCs may or may not uncover something suspicious going on before arriving in the capital city (if they do, the doppleganger will wait until it is safe to do so and then deal with the situation, which may mean deserting the party somewhere dangerous, killing one of them and taking their place while claiming that the Prince has been abducted in the night, or summoning aid from the other conspiritors), or after they get there.

If the party miss any and all clues, then they will be drawn back into it when the plot is revealed (days, weeks, or years later) and people start asking about that bunch of "henchmen" the fake prince arrived with...

Loads of fun!

[Muyten]

The Ranger gets knocked below 0 HP, but uses his Second Wind to get himself on 2 HP.



Well it all sounds good but the line above caught my eye. First going below 0 hp usualy means you can't take actions including second wind. Second if you are healed when below 0 hp you are brought to 0 before the healing takes place so even if he could use Second Wind it would bring him to more than 2 hp.

[Storm Bringer]

hmmm....

thoughts/plot hooks on the prince (although techincally, he's only a prince if his dad is king, not a duke. [/nitpick]) :

1) Hes the big bad. the players just don't know it (also known as the Sepheroth/Seymore Ploy, after it's repeated use in the final fansty series.) He is planning to make an offer to the team for thier help in sizing the dukedom off his daddy in return for lots of cash (and, i must stress, he MEANS it). If/when the players refuse, it trys to get them killed (so they can't rat on him.) the players spend the next X sessions legging it form him and his men, until strong enough to defeat him.

drawbacks: the players may try to skip the whole 'run away and level up' bit and just try and defeat the prince at the start. you may have to use a 'crush them, my minions!' ploy (the prince legs it and lets his men detain the players for long enough for him to escape).

2) the Dukes son is a honest, really nice guy. A shining example of virtue and valor. He's just got an single figure INT score. His bodyguards spend as much time 'minding' him as guarding him, keeping him form getting in over his head. If the players mention any injustice in his presence (for example, the causes of the revolt) he swears to right these wrongs, only for his companions to talk him out of it (pointing out the failure of the revolt, the changing of the tax laws, the removal of the corrupt mayor that started it. ect)>

drawbacks: really a bit character. He's fun in small doses, but could get old fast.

3) The duke's son is, in fact, an actual prince. His father was the King...but his mother was the Duchess. Techincally, he is the eldest son of the king, and thierfore next in line for the throne, but becuase of the extra-marital nature of his birth, it's been kept quiet.

Why is telling the party? well, the Queen found out about it recently, and she's determined that her son is going to be the king, not some B*stard of a duke's son........

[nagora]

hmmm....

thoughts/plot hooks on the prince (although techincally, he's only a prince if his dad is king, not a duke. [/nitpick]) :

It could be one of those "second son of the king is raised by a loyal Duke and sees the world while the heir to the throne is stuck in court where he's safe" situations. So he's not really the Duke's son, but the prince regards the duke as a sort of adopted father.

Perhaps the prince isn't happy about his older brother getting the throne after he's been off actually fighting in the unrest that recently ended.

Perhaps he's just seen as a way for the doppleganger to get to the elder brother: Doppie meets heir; kills heir, destroys the body, and takes his form, blames the party for disappearance of his "younger brother".

Probably falls apart if magic is applied to the plot, however. Still, might buy the doppleganger time to do something else - replace the king, perhaps? Depends on what the ultimate goal of the plotters actually is. They may just want access to the palace where some artifact is stored or something.

[Viruzzo]

First going below 0 hp usualy means you can't take actions including second wind. Second if you are healed when below 0 hp you are brought to 0 before the healing takes place
1) you can't use SW, but if you roll a modified 20 or more with your death saving throw you can spend an healing surge. You don't expend SW and don't get the defense bonuses though.
2) correct, but maybe he had 8 HP max. Which means a constitution score of -4, for a 1st level ranger... So not likely! :smallbiggrin:

[PnP Fan]

I'll just toss my two cents in.
1. Congratulations on saving your campaign!! Distractions can be severely detrimental to a game, and you made the right choice. Also, excellent recovery of story.

2. Keep your doppleganger under wraps. They operate on stealth and guile, and if this one has hired the PCs to protect him, why would he kill them half way to his destination. But you want a fight, even a solo fight. Introduce a band of loyal servants (or a single loyal servant) that is out to kill this doppleganger because the servant knows it's a doppleganger. The servant might be a loyal spy (rogue) type, with a handful of minion rogues, or something like that. That way, you get your combat, the story advances, you get to play the PCs for dupes, and they get the opportunity to kill the good guys. Oh, yes, and the PCs get to deliver one of your villains to the leader of the land. Try not to smile tooooo evilly. Or, of course, your spies could declare the prince as a doppleganger, and force the PC's to make some choices in the middle of the fight.

3. Wizards, from what I've gathered, are more dependant on equipment in 4.0 than 3.5. I could be wrong, but regardless, you don't want your halfling player feeling left out. Cool sword for the fighter, animal companion for the ranger, I'd get a staff of coolness for the wizard, that's fairly iconic. Not sure how to introduce it, maybe in a side quest in a village along the trip to the Duke? Or perhaps the Duke's task for the party involves fighting a cabal of wizards/warlocks bent on wrecking his Duchy?

[Yakk]

I was thinking, however, of making the Prince a Doppleganger (possibly hired by the BBEG of this campaign, currently undecided) and the actual Prince is being held by insurgents in the Empire (Lordwyn only just recovered from internal unrest, the party being rebels themselves. It's all blown over- apparently- but if I use this hook, apparently not). This could lead to another quest.
Or, for double-plus-fun, the Prince is a Doppleganger, and the actual Prince is being held by insurgents. Except, of course, the actual Prince is running the insurgents, and the Doppleganger is just part of his plan!

The actual Prince is in the middle of making a deal with Asmodeus, which involves overthrowing the current established order and producing a new Tiefling empire.

Note that most of this can be happening behind the scenes. The Prince looks like he is being held hostage. Possibly one or two things will seem off (but don't stress them). Play the real Prince as a swashbuckling good guy (who happens to want to help crack open Hell and turn himself into a monster to gain personal power -- but doesn't everyone have ambitions?).


My main aims are:

1) Advance the plot; introduce BBEG or at least some semblance of greater things at work, and get the PC's in on it.

2) Keep the Wizard on par. We all know Wizards don't rely as much on kit, as, say, the Fighter, but I want to keep him interested as well as satisfied that he's not being left out.

Are you using the treasure-parcels at all?

Wands, Rituals and Magic Cloth are as important to a Wizard as a Sword is to a fighter.


3) The duke's son is, in fact, an actual prince. His father was the King...but his mother was the Duchess. Techincally, he is the eldest son of the king, and thierfore next in line for the throne, but becuase of the extra-marital nature of his birth, it's been kept quiet.

Why is telling the party? well, the Queen found out about it recently, and she's determined that her son is going to be the king, not some B*stard of a duke's son........
That is also a good tweak. This can get the players on the side of the Prince...

Hell, the Duke could be in on the insurgent thing as well -- the Doppleganger and the "insurgents" could exist to keep the Prince from being killed by the Queen. (The Duke loves his son, even if the Prince is a cuckold).


I'd get a staff of coolness for the wizard, that's fairly iconic.

Actually, find out what tool your Wizard uses (they have a tool specilization). Do it by asking to read over character sheets, don't ask directly (that's cheesy!)

[Dragor]

Ahhh! So many great ideas! I wouldn't want to get too complicated on them, though. Not saying that my players are dumb, but I hate the look of confused faces and "Huh?". I may totally mind-screw them!

On the Halfling Wizard:

A Staff of Ultimate Cool +Elventybillion would suffice. Well, not that powerful. But still, a cool staff. Possibly it's what he's spent all those years making and finally remembers to use it, now that he's an, um, adventurer. At the age of 70. Either way, it would be a cool gag.

On the Prince:

All ideas were great- bluff, double bluffs, triple bluffs, mind-screws... all viable. As aforementioned, I don't want to weave a totally massive web of deception that I, as the spider, totally forget where I bloody am on said web. (Poor analogy). And, as the flies, my PC's may totally miss the web. (I'll stop now.)

I was thinking of using 'The Prince is a Hostage' idea. I was, perhaps, going to put the new PC's tricks into it. For example, the Drake just has "That feeling" about the Prince, and seems a bit sniffy and agitated around him. Or, the Goblin Sword the Fighter has may be Anti-Shapeshifter. I was playing with this idea a bit- possibly the Doppleganger's form 'melting' slightly, and the Doppleganger playing it off as some burnt flesh on the camp fire, etc. It could work, but my PC's are smart. They've played enough investigation games to know that something's up.

The idea that the Prince is the rightful heir would be a very good one, too. I don't want the PC's to seem like hangers-on in the story, though, simply doing the Prince's dirty work. I'm not quite sure how I'd get the players to actively 'care' about the Prince. Perhaps, by some twist of fate, the King did a Beowulf with a Doppleganger and is trying to cover it up? (Y'know what I mean?)

Argh, they're all truely brilliant- but there's so many! THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE! *does heroic... DM... pose. Whatever that can be.*

There is one thing I was planning on using, though, and this could definitely be something which lasts the campaign. In my world, most Fey creatures are segregated off in the West, in the Forests of the Muse. To any non-Fey creature, the Forests can drive a man mad with its twists and turns, like a country-size labyrinth. The Queen of these forests is Elivia, an Eladrin Warlord in our books. She's basically a fantasy Eco-Terrorist. She wants to push the forests further into Lordwyn using ancient growth magic, and she's prepared to use force to push any settlers out of the way.

I was planning on getting the Elf Ranger to meet her. This Ranger, as proven by his saving of the Drakes and his concern thus far, is very tied to nature. I was planning on using Elivia to meet the Ranger in a dream (say, if the escort stops in a road passing through the forest). I'll most likely take him out of the session for this. I want her at first to appear as a sort of Galadriel, wise but dangerous, and force the Ranger to take her side passively until he's required. Only when he's called upon will he realise how volatile and unfeeling she is.

Anyway, that's a tangent from the current topic. So we've established that:

1) The Halfling Wizard needs some gear. I think he's a Wand Wizard, so giving him a nice wand would suffice.

2) The Doppie has potential for at least 8 scenarios. It's got to at least be a bluff (bluffs are fun). Which yet? Undecided. I'll deliberate. OR it could weave into a 'Rightful Heir' chain of events. Again, undecided.

3) A BBEG needs to be introduced. It could be the Doppie himself, or I could introduce a third element, or an Item Of Great Importance (tm) in the capital.

[Storm Bringer]

*Lightbulb moment*

I've got it!

The duke has reason to belive that the queen is about to try and kill the prince. She has been seen in convosation with the envoy of thje nearby nation Rivalstan, which has a long standing grudge with the players kingdom (maybe pull a Hundred Years War plotline here: the Rivalstani monach has a tenuous claim to the throne and is seeking to enforce it). the queen becomes the BBEG, planning to sell out her kingdom so that she can rule it under the rival kingdom (then maybe betray them as well).

In order to protect his son, the duke Shanghaied a doppelganger into impersonating his son, then sent him on a high-profile job: picking up the players. the real prince is currently laying low in one of the dukes manors.

the queen takes the bait and hires some bandits to attack the prince. the players are able to beat off the attackers, but not before the 'prince' is wounded badly enough for the doppelganger to be forced to reveal itself. once the fight is over, the doppelganger explains to the players the plot as it knows it (the dukes son was in danger, he was sent as a decoy), and tells them to head to the duke to find out more (and get some danger money off him).


the queen, now aware that her target knows she's coming, is forced to call on her Rivalstani allies to help her deal with both the prince and the players........

[Dragor]

Storm Bringer- you, sir, are being mentally loved at this point in time.

It's perfect- not too complicated, epic enough to last a while, and allows the PC's to get stuck in. Thank you! This will be almost certainly used next session.

Thanks to the rest of you for all your brilliant ideas too.