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skywalker
2008-07-29, 12:34 PM
Alright everyone, I've decided to DM a 4e campaign for a group of close friends. I'm reading through AKA's guide, but I have a 4e specific question I'd like to ask. I'm also thinking I'll probably have more questions as time goes on, so I'd like to start this thread and possibly add to it once they come up.

First, one guy is playing a shadar-kai wizard, and he wants to buy down some of his stats(beyond 8) to gain points for the others. Will this break him tremendously? I have no problem with my players being semi-broken(I'm perfectly fine with another guy playing a minotaur fighter) but tremendous "one-shots everything and nobody else gets to kill anything" is something I'd like to avoid.

DiscipleofBob
2008-07-29, 12:41 PM
It depends on which stats he's buffing and which one's he's buying down, really.

Personally, I'd just tell him to wait. Those stat bumps are going to keep him plenty high, and depending on what he wants to drop, he'll be crippled in some cases anyway. Depending on the circumstances, he may end up becoming a liability. For example, if a dungeon required to get pass physical obstacles or there was a chase scene involved, dropping physical stats to 6 would be a detriment and the rest of the party would have to compensate.

As for whether it'd be broken? I don't think so. On the one hand, every +1 matters a lot more in 4e, and he may be doing more damage in the long run. As long as you don't let the reverse hold true (buying a base stat above 18 before racial modifiers), you'll be fine either way.

FatherMalkav
2008-07-29, 12:42 PM
As long as you make him role play his abilities, I don't see any reason why. I'd also limit it so that no ability is higher then 18 before racial and it should be fine.

Viruzzo
2008-07-29, 12:48 PM
As DiscipleOfBob said, it is better to avoid it at the moment. Also, maybe ask your players to try to avoid min/maxing too much, as for a starting DM it could provoke some balancing issues (it still is 4e though). If you let him, as suggested not to less than 6 in maybe one stat. If he gets (as is likely) a single-stat class and maxes it, make sure that the other players are not overshadowed by his optimization, by adding some encounter/challenges that penalize slightly the choice he made.

valadil
2008-07-29, 12:57 PM
If it's your first time DMing, handling players with min maxed characters is going to be challenging. I'd explain this to him and say that you'd rather have everyone closer on a power level as you adjust to DMing. One big mistake I see a lot of new DMs make is that they want to allow everything they were denied, and then can't handle it.

If you do go with it though, make sure to exploit that player's weakness at least once. He's taking advantage of what he maxed out every single game. He should feel some pain for what he minimized too.

ImperiousLeader
2008-07-29, 01:02 PM
I wouldn't. Because of how defenses in 4e work, you can comfortably dump three stats without seeing much deficiencies in combat. Especially the Wizard, you can dump STR and CHA without even noticing, and Dex if he decides on the Orb Mastery, and he take Improved Initiative. Allowing only one stat to be an 8 keeps them more reasonable.

That said, Wizards aren't game-breaking powerful anymore, so allowing it probably won't destroy your campaign, but you'll notice the wizard will be hitting harder and more reliably if you allow it.

Also, I've got a Minotaur Fighter in my game, and he's not really that broken.

(Just on the topic of fighters, here's one thing I love about 4e ... it's no longer the wizards that are the ones that are stopping the party for an extended rest. Generally, it's the Defenders running out of healing surges that stops the party for the night.)

Dan2
2008-07-29, 01:04 PM
I very much doubt it will hurt your game very much, but the effects will most likely be seen eventually...

For example:

There's a huge debate going on in some other forums about whether Int or Wisdom is best for a Wizard (with the Orb Mastery) in 4th ed.

The Wisdom is used to help "lock down" a creature by making it so that it is impossible to make it's save.

If you character could buy down Strength and something else, they could buy up both Int and Wis to really high levels, and do really well.

However, I doubt you will see the result of this sort of modification until Epic tier at least.

If it makes your players (plural) happy, and it isn't flagrantly breaking balance, go ahead and allow it.

AKA_Bait
2008-07-29, 01:11 PM
Just wanted to chime in and pretty much agree with what was said above. So long as you don't allow them to buy up to stats past 18 before racial modifiers you should be fine. Letting him buy up higher than that will probably overpower him with regard to the rest of the party. Not a ton, but enough to prove potentially annoying and mildly screw up the balance of some encounters (remember that monster defenses scale with level now, so an extra +1 or +2 to attack makes a larger difference than it did in 3.5).

Also, I wouldn't let him do it with more than one stat. As ImperiousLeader pointed out, defenses are based upon only one of two stats and he could really break the bank in terms of overpowering his attacks to the creatures he'll be fighting if you let him, say, nerf 3 stats down to the ground and toss it all in Int.

One additional thing I would caution about: be careful about letting him drop really important survival stats below 8. Con in particular. HP fluctuates wildly from round to round in 4e and if he is not careful he will find himself with a frequently unconscious or dead Shadar-Ki Wizard.

Yakk
2008-07-29, 02:01 PM
It is your first time running D&D.

Use basic character generation. Character generation happens to be something that takes some care, and if you mess it up, can cause long-term problems.

After you become familiar with the system and your players, riff it up more.

(If the player wants to have a sub-8 stat for roleplaying reasons, let them. But it doesn't have to be worth more points.)