Sauron vs Link

[Executor]

*OMINOUS LATIN CHANTING!*

No! It can't be! Even HE can't be this crazy! No one would unleash this kind of madness on the forums!

Oh but I am, folks, I am :smallamused:

Ladies and Gentleman, please draw your attention to the centre thread. The main event is about to begin! *ahem* LET'S GET READY TO RUMBLEEEEEEEEEEE!

In the Mordor corner, standing 8 feet tall and weighing in at 300lbs of pure muscle and magical might, the Dark Lord of Mordor, the Lord of the Rings, SAURON GORTHAUR!

And in the Rivendell corner, standing 6 feet tall and weighing 180lbs, the Keeper of the Triforce of Courage, the Defender of Hyrule, LINK!

So, our fight scenario for this event: Link (Twilight Princess version) has just defeated his enemy, Ganondorf, in the duel upon the Hylian Fields. But the great release of magical forces from the three Triforce Bearers being together and one of them being struck down opens a kind of wormhole, which swallows Link and Epona and all his gear whole, leaving the bewildered Princess Zelda behind.

Now, my friends, we have two choices as to where this portal drops him off

A. The Inn of the Prancing Pony, there to meet Strider and the four Hobbits and join the War of the Ring.

B. The camp of the Last Alliance of Elves and Men, shortly before the final battle against Sauron and his armies on the slopes of Oroduin.

So, you may choose. Where will Link end up? And how will his presence affect Middle-Earth's outcome?

Let the bloodbath begin.

[Selrahc]

Well obviously Saurons infallible corruption skills will instantly make Link join the darkside. No matter how far away he is, or Links inherent bravery and incorruptibility.

And Link, staggering under the weight of every magic or mundane item he has held or glanced at across a dozen games will be completely undefeatable by the forces of good. Even if they threw him into a botomless pit 300 times.

:smallamused:

[Moff Chumley]

Everyone knows that Evil Elitist easily defeats both. (I give my self a... twenty percent chance that I'm going to be ninja'd by a French Halfling. :smalleek:)

[AmberVael]

Link's presence merely confuses anyone nearby, seeing as how his vocabulary is limited to "HAAAA! HYAH! YAAAAH!" and other such sounds. :smalltongue:

[chiasaur11]

Doesn't this always lead to armies of Space Marines attacking Mordor?

And: Link.
Sauron got killed by the same sort of guy before, and that guy didn't have one of the world's biggest subspace arsenals.

[Zeful]

Sadly with the Empowered Master Sword's powers to repel evil and darkness, the entire book becomes an very violent episode of Dora the Explorer. Link could kill the Ring Wraiths. Not to mention his sniper mask and bomb arrows, among other tools. As the bearer of the Triforce of Courage, he'd be roughly immune to the ring's corruption. And due to the his very large amount of spiritual energy (hearts) and his ability to teleport back up after lethal falls, he'd be immune to most anything the armies of Mordor threw at him.

So in short, Link wins by a sound majority.

[GryffonDurime]

If Link has Light Arrows and the Master Sword, he's probably got a great shot. Better still if he can poach some joyful goodies from his various incarnations: Nayru's Love, the Golden Gauntlets or a similar strength-booster, or the Link-to-the-Past Medallions would all be exceptionally helpful.

Oh, and if he's got the Fierce Deity Mask? :smallwink:

[Executor]

Tsk tsk, is Sauron really that underestimated.

I concede the points of the Light Arrows and the Master Sword hurting him. That's what they were created to do, hurt evil. But just as they didn't 1-hit-KO Ganondorf, they won't do the same to Sauron. I also remind everyone that this is the Twilight Princess version of Link, not some crazy amalgation, just the Twilight Princess one.

Now, on to Sauron's combat skills. At the Last Alliance, Sauron took on eight different people, physically and mentally (in LOTR, Magic has a lot to do with the mind and willpower), at the same time. Now, anyone who's been in a fight will tell you that fighting eight people at once is damn hard. Not the movie-version of the "They form a circle and come at you one at a time either", these eight folks we really fighting. Not only that, but these eight people were the eight most powerful Men and Elves in history up to that point. How did this fight end up? Well Sauron was defeated. But he took out the two most powerful of the eight with him, and corrupted the third most powerful with his Ring. All things considered, he won.

And he's going to give Link a run for his money here.

[chiasaur11]

Tsk tsk, is Sauron really that underestimated.

I concede the points of the Light Arrows and the Master Sword hurting him. That's what they were created to do, hurt evil. But just as they didn't 1-hit-KO Ganondorf, they won't do the same to Sauron. I also remind everyone that this is the Twilight Princess version of Link, not some crazy amalgation, just the Twilight Princess one.

Now, on to Sauron's combat skills. At the Last Alliance, Sauron took on eight different people, physically and mentally (in LOTR, Magic has a lot to do with the mind and willpower), at the same time. Now, anyone who's been in a fight will tell you that fighting eight people at once is damn hard. Not the movie-version of the "They form a circle and come at you one at a time either", these eight folks we really fighting. Not only that, but these eight people were the eight most powerful Men and Elves in history up to that point. How did this fight end up? Well Sauron was defeated. But he took out the two most powerful of the eight with him, and corrupted the third most powerful with his Ring. All things considered, he won.

And he's going to give Link a run for his money here.

Link takes on armies at once, and faces monsters taller than most buildings.
And I count ANY fight where you die and most of the other team survives as a resounding loss.

[GryffonDurime]

Even by Hyrule's standards, Link is mysteriously powerful, both in terms of physicallity (have you seen some of the things he's killed?) and mysticism. People take for granted that Hyrule, the world, is magical. There aren't many examples of people in Hyrule, however, who actually use magic in any form. Almost every Link, however, including the Hero of the Twilight, has shown themselves capable of using magic and magical devices.

I'm not claiming Link will insta-kill Sauron whatever the arrangement, but rather that he represents a very real threat to Sauron either as a member of the Last Alliance or the Fellowship. He's a master swordsman and archer armed with evil-slaying equipment of both varieties, one of if not the greatest horsemen of his world, protected by a third of the divine power that crafted Hyrule itself, and magically powerful/experienced in his own right.

Additional: He's killed a Balrog, or at least the Hyrulian equivalent.

[Executor]

Link takes on armies at once, and faces monsters taller than most buildings.
And I count ANY fight where you die and most of the other team survives as a resounding loss.

Uh, when did Link take on an entire army at once? I know he takes on Ganon's armies, but generally in small, bite-sized, portions. Not the entire force of thousands all at once. As for the monsters talling than most buildings: True, but they generally have prominent, red, usually flashing weakspots :smallwink:

The two most powerful of them were skilled, and the third one was corrupted by Sauron, who in fact survived in the Ring. Not only that, but Gondor and Arnor began the long process of their decline, all nine of his most powerful servants survived to continue to serve his will, and the Elves decided to leave Middle-Earth, slowly but surely. Most importantly, the Ring survived. It wasn't so much a defeat as an annoying setback. Sauron is, after all, immortal and looks at the big picture, thousands of years of strategy. In the big picture, having his physical form destroyed was just a setback. It slowed him down but did not defeat him.

[Revlid]

Sauron is an incredibly powerful, immortal force of corruption and evil.

Link's basic premise is that he is really damn good at defeating incredibly powerful, immortal forces of corruption and evil.

Quid pro quo, Link wins.

[Fri]

Do you remember what was happened the last time something like this was posted?

...well neither do I. But link can't just stab sauron in the eye. Well, he'll need to throw the one ring into Mt Doom.

[Executor]

GoC has brought to my attention an error in my information, for which I am thankful that he did. Sauron was, in fact, responsible for the deaths of FOUR of the SIX heroes of the Last Alliance. I'll go through them one by one so that we know for sure, I've got the Silmarillion and the Lord of the Rings appendices with me, just in case.

Elendil - Killed by Sauron
Gil-Galad - Killed By Sauron
Isildur - Corrupted by Sauron and then killed by his servants
Anarion - Killed by Sauron's servants
Elrond - Survived
Cirdan - Survived

Still, Elendil and Gil-Galad were the greatest warriors in the world at that time, wielding incredibly powerful magic artifacts which were destined by FATE to be Sauron's undoing. Now, magic in the Tolkienverse is a pretty subtle thing, but it seems implied that Fate is a powerful, powerful element of it. It took two weapons fated to destroy him, being used by two of the greatest warriors in the world, attacking him at the same time, just to take Sauron down.

Sauron has all the experience that comes with being technically older than the universe, has fought in every major war of the world since Time began all the way to the Third Age, has weapons personally forged by himself (and Sauron was a deity of fire and craftsmanship, he's kinda like evil Hephaestus), and has an incredible ability to seduce the greatest of men and elves with the power of evil. For example: Isildur was the greatest of the Kings of Men when he took up the Ring... he was corrupted before he even got out of Mordor.

Again I say: I don't know who will win but it will be one heck of a fight.

[warty goblin]

Hmm, Senario 1 I'm calling as a Sauron win. Why? Well one of the main strengths of the Fellowship was stealth. Link seems to be rather more oriented to going out and killing evil, rather than avoiding it. Owing to this proviclavity Sauron is going to have a lot better intell on the Fellowship's movements, and once they clear the turn-off point for Minas Tirith, they are not going to simply be able to pull a Hobbit and disappear. Also, there's a good chance that Link would just kill Gollum, since he is an evil little bastard, which would make it impossible for the Ring to reach Mordor.

The other one Link obviously wins. I mean Sauron already lost to a bunch of high powered warriors, adding one more sort of cements the issue.

[Moff Chumley]

I'm very surprised we haven't heard from EE yet. :smallconfused:

I think Link wins by dint of being a high fantasy character in a low fantasy setting.

[Fan]

I'ma gnna give both scenarios to Sauron, both being because well, Link isn't exactly the SUPER stealthy kind, he's never actually moved sliently in his life its mostly been, running past the gaurds while they weren't looking, nad grapple hooking to the next level, of the complex.

The second one, because well Link isn't made for war the best thing he's got going for him is the master sword, and the hylian shield, but as usual enemies in LoZ are STUPIDLY slow, and not that combat experianced to boot, and even with the weakest ones there usually isn't many of them. In the War of the first age the numbers of the enemy were ENORMAS, easily 30, to 40 times the amount Link has EVER faced at a single time, and even then they NEVER had fullbody armor, AND shields, and I'm not even gonna get started on armored trolls. People link isn't sonme badass 733t warrior, he's not even as good with a sword as Aragorn, or Islidour, nor as good with a bo as Legolas.
Now people I'am A BIG fan of LoZ, ad I actually still buy the games, but in my opinon war is no place for Link, and Sauron required two weapons DESTINED to defeat him, wielded bythe greatest warriors EVER, to kill him, and the BOTH died, in the process.

[GoC]

People link isn't sonme badass 733t warrior, he's not even as good with a sword as Aragorn, or Islidour, nor as good with a bo as Legolas.
I swore I would never post in an ME thread again (though me leaving the last one was due to me moving country) so I won't make an actual post but a comment:
How can we determine who was better? By looking at their achievements and power descriptions.

[snoopy13a]

Sauron

Do you know how many times I died playing Legend of Zelda to those knight guys or those jumping through blocks bunny ear guys or those half dude, half lions guys that can shoot swords. Trust me, Sauron is tougher then those guys :smallbiggrin:

[Drascin]

Sauron

Do you know how many times I died playing Legend of Zelda to those knight guys or those jumping through blocks bunny ear guys or those half dude, half lions guys that can shoot swords. Trust me, Sauron is tougher then those guys :smallbiggrin:

Hey, if you suck at Zelda it's not Link's fault :smalltongue:. There hasn't really been a Zelda game where combat was really hard - and the 3D ones especially.

Myself, in a straight-up fight, I'd say Link wins, easy. It's basically the equivalent of a boss battle, and those are never too hard.

More roundabout way... I'd say team Link, still. Give him some means of camouflage (standard elven cloak, or his own Stone Mask from Majora's Mask, though that one might be cheating), and he makes the perfect Ringbearer - impossible to corrupt, hard to detect, extremly resilient to basically anything, able to get through whatever maze he finds in the way, and strong enough to own anyone that does detect him before he reports (Ringwraiths especially may not like being poked by the Master Sword or Light Arrow'd outta the sky. And he's a Hylian, not a man, so no prophecy protection for Witchy).

But here, Sauron has a chance, if he finds out about him, he can intercept him and Zerg him with trolls him until he runs out of bombs first and then fairies (orcs would not really help too much, being that they'd be mauled by Spin Attacks and such techs), since Twilight Link lacks any means of getting out of the ambush easily (Ocarina Link could just Farore a few kilometers back and look for another way on the mountains via application of hookshot and Golden Gauntlets, but I don't seem to remember Twilight Link having anything to that effect). Of course, it should be noted that Sauron still has the same downfalls, that is, he doesn't really understand the concept of someone wanting to blow up the ring, so if Link manages to get through the pass near Minas Ithil unnoticed (that would be the point of danger. If he gets spot there, it's game over), it will likely be smooth sailing from there until it's way too late.

So that one could go either way, but I'd still give the higher chance to team Link.

[Steven the Lich]

I don't think people are being that fair with Sauron. He is by far tougher than any Zelda boss in my opinion.

I would imagine Link being immune to corruption, because he has the tri force.
He would be able to harm Sauron because of the Master Sword. Light arrows would work too (I do not know much about them).
We are not to grant Link dominant fighting skill, because Sauron has a good 1000 years, give or take, under his belt, and magic of his own. He could give Link a good run for his money.
But Link has to first get past all of the orcs, trolls, worgs, wraiths, fell beasts, uruk hai, etc. before he would even get the chance to one on one Sauron. Link is a single elf (And I do not believe Hyrule elves are as good as Middle Earth elves... Hyrule elves strike me as humans really), and he has as much chances as the fellowship and company to defeat Sauron. Its not a simple matter of if he can defeat him, its also a matter of IF he can get to him. If Sauron knew that there was a chamion of light amongst his enemies, I find it reasonable to believe he would stay in Barad Dur to strike at the right time.
Side note, lets see Link take on and defeat an army of millions of orcs... All coming at him at once!
EDIT: I find the LK vs. Sauron thread so much better a match.:smallwink:
Maybe its time to bring it back for the finale.

[Grod_The_Giant]

...are you serious?
Link is, supposedly, the underdog in the fight with Ganon, who's attempting to achieve godhood. Sauron, by contrast, IS a god. A full-fledged, hight-of-his-power GOD.

[chiasaur11]

...are you serious?
Link is, supposedly, the underdog in the fight with Ganon, who's attempting to achieve godhood. Sauron, by contrast, IS a god. A full-fledged, hight-of-his-power GOD.

So's Ganon about half the times he's the final boss.
And Sauron is Satan level, max. He can't 1 hit ranged kill everyone or similar, he just has an army, can corrupt with time and tools, and has a few really good tricks.

[warty goblin]

In the ancient and unhallowed tradition of vs. threads, I will respond to your comments in a staggering number of quote boxes, at least one of which I will almost certainly get wrong.


I don't think people are being that fair with Sauron. He is by far tougher than any Zelda boss in my opinion.

I would imagine Link being immune to corruption, because he has the tri force.

Agreed there.



He would be able to harm Sauron because of the Master Sword. Light arrows would work too (I do not know much about them).
Also here.


We are not to grant Link dominant fighting skill, because Sauron has a good 1000 years, give or take, under his belt, and magic of his own. He could give Link a good run for his money.
Agreed here as well, although I will note that Sauron has way more than a thousand years experience- he's been around for every age of the world, and the second age alone was 3,000 years. The ages before the sun don't seem to really have timescale in years (owing to, you know, the sun not existing yet), but were pretty long, with the exception of the Age of Stars.


But Link has to first get past all of the orcs, trolls, worgs, wraiths, fell beasts, uruk hai, etc. before he would even get the chance to one on one Sauron. Link is a single elf (And I do not believe Hyrule elves are as good as Middle Earth elves... Hyrule elves strike me as humans really), and he has as much chances as the fellowship and company to defeat Sauron. Its not a simple matter of if he can defeat him, its also a matter of IF he can get to him. If Sauron knew that there was a chamion of light amongst his enemies, I find it reasonable to believe he would stay in Barad Dur to strike at the right time.
Ah yes, the joy of minions, a resource which Sauron generally uses pretty intelligently. Also, as I said, for the War of the Ring senario, Link has to get into Morder, which is seriously non-trivial, what with, you know, all of the evil creatures etc. Hell, even if Link found the way into Cirith Ungol, he'd probably try to attack Minas Morgul since his past experience tends to be "attack the stuff in the den of evil" which would, to put it mildly, end badly.



Side note, lets see Link take on and defeat an army of millions of orcs... All coming at him at once!
EDIT: I find the LK vs. Sauron thread so much better a match.:smallwink:
Maybe its time to bring it back for the finale.

Dear gods no. There is only so much geekery my mind can survive- and analyzing LOTR for information on Saruman's military-industrial complex is right on the limit. Any more and I'll have to start wearing unwashed Cheez-it stained shirts saying "Frodo Lives" and randomly accosting people at cons to see if they want to trade Collectible Card Games from 7 years that only ran for one set.

[Revlid]

Agreed here as well, although I will note that Sauron has way more than a thousand years experience- he's been around for every age of the world, and the second age alone was 3,000 years. The ages before the sun don't seem to really have timescale in years (owing to, you know, the sun not existing yet), but were pretty long, with the exception of the Age of Stars.

Yes, but most of that was spent godlike and immaterial, and most of his material time wasn't spent practicing with his mace. Much like (and I'm truly sorry for making the comparison, I'm sure there's a better one) Damien (http://www.egscomics.com/d/20040426.html) of El Goonish Shive, he didn't/doesn't really need skill. He just swings his mace and dozens of Elves go flying.


Ah yes, the joy of minions, a resource which Sauron generally uses pretty intelligently. Also, as I said, for the War of the Ring scenario, Link has to get into Mordor, which is seriously non-trivial, what with, you know, all of the evil creatures etc. Hell, even if Link found the way into Cirith Ungol, he'd probably try to attack Minas Morgul since his past experience tends to be "attack the stuff in the den of evil" which would, to put it mildly, end badly.

I am sufficiently confident, given past experience, that 'basic minions' can be considered little more than speedbumps for The Hero of Time. Sure, he'd be worn down by them if they were in an army and he was on his own, but grant Link/the player even a modicum of intelligence and he'd just use his tireless Epona or the Song of *Teleport* to avoid aforesaid army.

Sneaking into Mordor wouldn't exactly be difficult given how easy it was for two exhausted Hobbits - Link's snuck into (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzyb9LvOdeU) more tightly guarded locations (http://www.zeldawiki.org/Image:Forsaken_Fortress.jpg) before. That place had a searchlight, too.

The Ringwraiths (http://www.zeldawiki.org/Image:Phantom.gif), Witch King (http://www.zeldawiki.org/Image:Phantomganonww.png) and Balrog (http://www.zeldawiki.org/Image:TPFyrus.png)would be tough bosses, no doubt, but Link's beaten things tougher than them already. Hell, Shelob (http://www.zeldawiki.org/Image:Armogohma.jpg)would probably be a miniboss at the stage of the 'game' Link would be at by then.

So let's say link starts in the Shire. He makes his way to Rivendell with little fuss (if all it takes is flaming sticks to ward off Ringwraiths, then say hello to Fire Arrows, Din's Fire, and... Flaming Sticks), before heading to Lothlorien. Assuming he can't make it over the mountain (Goron Mask?) he heads into Moria, where he slaughters the Goblins. The Cave Troll might give him pause, but it's basically a miniboss. The Balrog might either be a 'weak-point attack-pattern' boss, vulnerable to the Light/Ice Arrows and the Master Sword, or it might be a puzzle boss - use a bomb or two to blow the bridge, then a hookshot to get to the other side. Note that if he's wearing his Goron Tunic, he's basically immune to the Balrog's attacks.

From Lothlorien he heads to Rohan on Epona. No problems here that I can see. A bit of horseback fighting to protect refugees on the way to Helm's Deep. The battle of Helm's Deep goes smoothly, thanks to
a) Link being practically a sniper with arrows.
b) Bombs being thrown into the densely packed Uruk-Hai ranks.
c) Bomb Mask?
d) Spin Attack in densely packed Uruk-Hai ranks, and at choke-points.
e) There are lots of pots in Helm's Deep - Link fights until he's low on health, then goes and re-fills his hearts. The Uruks will break eventually.

From Rohan he heads to Mordor, through Cirith Ungol. Kills Shelob (Light Arrows, Master Sword in the eye) and a few Orcs. Puts on a disguise, hides in a barrel, and spends a few humorous days trekking to Mt. Doom, where he drops the ring in, incorruptible due to the Triforce.

[Fan]

Why does EVERYONE assume, that Link is incorruptable, sure Link has a piece of the tri-force, and its a pretty damn cool thing, but all it does is give him limitless courage, and some damn handy abilties, but it dosn't mke him immunw to mind control, and soul corruption, and I'll be damned if Zelda, didn't have Link doing what ever she wanted WHENEVER she wanted, Link although Brave, Swift , and Strong, is no more incorupptable the Boromir, or Faramir, or for that matter Lolthlorien, the mistress of the glade herself was corrupted, and so was Frodo, near the end. It SPECFICLY states in the origanal book, that the ONLY persn Incoruptable by the ring was wa some dude in the woods, and he WOULDN'T do it, becuase he refused to hav the chance of it courrpting his followers with its mere presence.

ALSO this is TWILIGHT PRINCESS LINK, not Majoras Mask link or Ocarina of time link, but Twilight princess Link.

[Green Bean]

Video game protagonist vs. a modified fetch quest? Only one way this can end. :smalltongue:

[Siosilvar]

if Zelda, didn't have Link doing what ever she wanted WHENEVER she wanted,

Zelda has ranks in Profession (Girlfriend) (http://ah.indolents.com/comic/40).

[Fan]

Which means he was corrupted by her female wiles, and tricks (dont stab me.)

[Adumbration]

Which means he was corrupted by her female wiles, and tricks (dont stab me.)

... I bet you're single? :smalltongue:

[Zencao]

Link, is has been re-born as the hero of time god-knows how many times, so we can assume he has some advantages of that, not to the extent Sauron has from being older than time itself, but still some power.

He isn't an elf, but he is a crack shot, and has a large amount of magic artifacts and is a magician himself.

On the triforce:

The triforce is the three gods who created the world's power. The god of courage put his power into the courage section, which link gets.

Which basically means Link is the manifestation of that god's power. Which I'd say puts him on even status with sauron in terms of spiritual power.

The god in question is the god of courage, of sheer force of will and determination, if that doesn't make him incorruptible nothing will. Considering samwise managed to not get corrupted despite just being a determined hobbit.

In both scenario's I'd say link wins, adding him to the cast of LOTR at any point just makes the already established victory easier.

But the discussion seems to have shifted onto seeing how much **** can be piled on link on his own wearing nothing in a desert while the orks have M16's and sauron has a tactical nuke.

[Fan]

Once again TWILIGHT PRINCESS LINK, not any f the other many incarnations of Link, he doesn't have any of the masks, or the ocarina, hes only music power is based on whistling, into distinct varieties of reeds.

[Steven the Lich]

Sneaking into Mordor wouldn't exactly be difficult given how easy it was for two exhausted Hobbits They had help. From Gollum. Link has no such luxury (I think he would kill Gollum on sight in fact, unless offered a reason not to).


The Ringwraiths, Witch King and Balrog would be tough bosses, no doubt, but Link's beaten things tougher than them already. Hell, Shelob would probably be a miniboss at the stage of the 'game' Link would be at by then. Witch King has Black Breath... if Link tries to attack him, he's going to lose a limb to fight with and may even get a fatal disease. The Balrog would not be a simple battle, and Link won't have space to fight if he is on that small pitiful excuse for a bridge.


Much like (and I'm truly sorry for making the comparison, I'm sure there's a better one) Damien of El Goonish Shive, he didn't/doesn't really need skill. Yeah... but he was an idiot. Besides, even he wasn't 3000 years old (He was born during a lab accident). Sauron is both older and wiser, that is clear.


The Balrog might either be a 'weak-point attack-pattern' boss, vulnerable to the Light/Ice Arrows and the Master Sword, or it might be a puzzle boss - use a bomb or two to blow the bridge, then a hookshot to get to the other side. Note that if he's wearing his Goron Tunic, he's basically immune to the Balrog's attacks. The Balrog has a whip... of fire... which can be used to pull people. Link will have trouble with that, whether or not he is immune. because the Balrog can pull Link down with himself (This was done to Gandalf). Is the goron tunic a Twilight Princess item? Just so we're aligned with the "Twilight Princess" Link. What does it provide anyway? I'm no master on LoZ Lore and gameplay.


From Lothlorien he heads to Rohan on Epona. No problems here that I can see. A bit of horseback fighting to protect refugees on the way to Helm's Deep. The battle of Helm's Deep goes smoothly, thanks to
a) Link being practically a sniper with arrows.
b) Bombs being thrown into the densely packed Uruk-Hai ranks.
c) Bomb Mask?
d) Spin Attack in densely packed Uruk-Hai ranks, and at choke-points.
e) There are lots of pots in Helm's Deep - Link fights until he's low on health, then goes and re-fills his hearts. The Uruks will break eventually. Link is not simply going to win the battle by himself. I recall a good number of 10'000 uruk hai, each who are tougher than a normal orc. The uruk hai don't care about casualties anyway (They used a kamikaze to blow up the wall!).
a) It has been stated that Legolas is a sniper, but he couldn't hold them off.
b) Given.
c) What is that anyway... how does it work?
d) I'll say that Gimli likely pulled off such things.
e) That didn't help anyone. And you're right, the Uruks will break... the wall. Without Gandalfs reinforcements and dramatic "charge from the sun", Link will not be able to win the battle.


From Rohan he heads to Mordor, through Cirith Ungol. Kills Shelob (Light Arrows, Master Sword in the eye) and a few Orcs. Puts on a disguise, hides in a barrel, and spends a few humorous days trekking to Mt. Doom, where he drops the ring in, incorruptible due to the Triforce. Cirith Ungol is full of orcs. The only reason Sam fought so little is because the whiny thugs killed themselves over a mithril shirt. Frodo has been replaced with Link, so it is likely that they will focus on Link when he comes through. Also, Mordor as I understand is overflowing with orcs. Frodo and Sam were capable of getting through when Aragorn and the others drew Saurons attention at the Black Gate. Hell has a better chance of freezing over than Link has of beating every single one of those orcs. However, if the Fellowship come into play, then we can assume that Link has a shot, granted that they hold off the orcs long enough for Link to finish the job.


Why does EVERYONE assume, that Link is incorruptable, sure Link has a piece of the tri-force, and its a pretty damn cool thing, but all it does is give him limitless courage, and some damn handy abilties, but it dosn't mke him immunw to mind control, and soul corruption, and I'll be damned if Zelda, didn't have Link doing what ever she wanted WHENEVER she wanted, Link although Brave, Swift , and Strong, is no more incorupptable the Boromir, or Faramir, or for that matter Lolthlorien, the mistress of the glade herself was corrupted, and so was Frodo, near the end. The Tri force is a fraction and testiment of the gods' power. Link should be granted some immunity. Granted, over time he would become weary.


It SPECFICLY states in the origanal book, that the ONLY persn Incoruptable by the ring was wa some dude in the woods, and he WOULDN'T do it, becuase he refused to hav the chance of it courrpting his followers with its mere presence. Out of curiosity, who is it? Beor?


Dear gods no. There is only so much geekery my mind can survive- and analyzing LOTR for information on Saruman's military-industrial complex is right on the limit. Any more and I'll have to start wearing unwashed Cheez-it stained shirts saying "Frodo Lives" and randomly accosting people at cons to see if they want to trade Collectible Card Games from 7 years that only ran for one set. Why not? We agreed for a draw until WotLK, and the time has virtually arrived. We have a good deal of new info to add to the LK's side.
Besides, I'm getting bored. I think it would be acceptable to start it anew.

[Zeful]

Once again TWILIGHT PRINCESS LINK, not any f the other many incarnations of Link, he doesn't have any of the masks, or the ocarina, hes only music power is based on whistling, into distinct varieties of reeds.

Exactly, but he still is the Hero of Courage, bearer of Evil's Bane, holder of the power of the Triforce of Courage, made by the god of his land. The Master Sword alone makes it really hard (but not impossible) for Link to be corrupted by evil. The Triforce of Courage as well as his own power, represented by his triforce Tattoo, make him incorruptible as long as he has a mission. Destroying the One Ring sounds like a mission to me.

[Fan]

It was in the origanal fellowship book, they talked about him, and how he was older than time or something, and eariler in the bookm he had saved their asses, with some sort of light, and shown them what aREAL good time was.

Also another thing Link does not have the goron tunic, ny of the masks, o anything else NOT from twilight princess, that inculdes, the bombchu's, the Ice arrows, and quite a few other things, so he is NOT immune to the Witch ing, which by the way CANT be killed by Link, no matter what he has, cause hes a MAN.

[Revanmal]

It was in the origanal fellowship book, they talked about him, and how he was older than time or something, and eariler in the bookm he had saved their asses, with some sort of light, and shown them what aREAL good time was.

You mean Tom Bombadil?


Also another thing Link does not have the goron tunic, ny of the masks, o anything else NOT from twilight princess, that inculdes, the bombchu's, the Ice arrows, and quite a few other things, so he is NOT immune to the Witch ing, which by the way CANT be killed by Link, no matter what he has, cause hes a MAN.

Isn't Link under adult age in the games? He is not a man - he is a boy :P

[Steven the Lich]

Exactly, but he still is the Hero of Courage, bearer of Evil's Bane, holder of the power of the Triforce of Courage, made by the god of his land. The Master Sword alone makes it really hard (but not impossible) for Link to be corrupted by evil. The Triforce of Courage as well as his own power, represented by his triforce Tattoo, make him incorruptible as long as he has a mission. Destroying the One Ring sounds like a mission to me. It should be given that Link will have a tough time tossing in the ring, since by then his defense to corruption should be worn down, regardless of Links incorruptibility. However, it is not entirely impossible for Link to toss the ring into Mt. doom.


Also another thing Link does not have the goron tunic, ny of the masks, o anything else NOT from twilight princess, that inculdes, the bombchu's, the Ice arrows, and quite a few other things, so he is NOT immune to the Witch ing, which by the way CANT be killed by Link, no matter what he has, cause hes a MAN. No, that is just completely wrong. First, Link is in fact not a man, more of an elf. Second, Master Sword should be able to deal with the WK. Third, That prophecy cannot be used in vs. threads, as was discussed a dozen times over, since it hardly is irelevent.
However, it should be noted that Link will have a hard time killing the WK because of the WK's Black Breath, regardless of the Master Sword.

[Fan]

The prophecy meant a MALE, and if you guys want to arguethat Link is NOT male thats fine with me.
but once again Link would proly die to the Bal Rog, consideringh he DOES NOT have magic that can stop a 50 foot tall, demon made enitrely out of fire, and shadow.

[archon_huskie]

The dude int he woods is Tom Bambadillo. He's another character from Tolkien's early works, which also take place within the Middle-Earth universe. It is established in the other books Tom is in that Tom would be able to handle the Ring all by himself being pure and immortal or something like that. Or in other words, Tom would be Tolkien's Mary Sue character, so he can't stick around, but he has to be included somehow and written out because he is In-universe.

Instead of giving the ring to Link, I would have someone following Link around who has the ring. There is a reason Hobbits were the ring-bearers you know. (Or in Sam's case, the bearer of the ring bearer). Sure Link could carry the ring, but not the entire time. Better to have an NPc he has to rescue constantly do it.

Or maybe he would have to quest for a few items first. (Say why didn't Frodo just carry the ring in a jar?)

[archon_huskie]

The prophecy meant a MALE, and if you guys want to arguethat Link is NOT male thats fine with me.
but once again Link would proly die to the Bal Rog, consideringh he DOES NOT have magic that can stop a 50 foot tall, demon made enitrely out of fire, and shadow.

So how did a certain Male Hobbit named Merry injure the Witch King by stabbing him in the back?

[Zeful]

Actually those prophecies mean nothing to Link, because the Master Sword is a weapon made to harm evil (and later repel darkness) from another world. The Master sword is capable of killing any of Sauron's army, irregardless of who wields it. Also Link is not just a man, nor is he just a wolf, rather he is both meaning the Witch king can be killed by his hand (or claw in this case).


Link would probably die to the Bal Rog, consideringh he DOES NOT have magic that can stop a 50 foot tall, demon made enitrely out of fire, and shadow.
The bow worked the last time, he should be fine.

[Zenos]

The prophecy meant a MALE, and if you guys want to arguethat Link is NOT male thats fine with me.


Why do many people give Merry half the credit for the kill then?

[Steven the Lich]

The prophecy meant a MALE, and if you guys want to arguethat Link is NOT male thats fine with me. :smallsigh: You missed one of my points. The prophecy does not apply.
By the way, it applies to living men. Just a point that means nothing in this thead.

[warty goblin]

Yes, but most of that was spent godlike and immaterial, and most of his material time wasn't spent practicing with his mace. Much like (and I'm truly sorry for making the comparison, I'm sure there's a better one) Damien (http://www.egscomics.com/d/20040426.html) of El Goonish Shive, he didn't/doesn't really need skill. He just swings his mace and dozens of Elves go flying.

Bear in mind however that Link is a elf who is lacking the several thouand years of experience possessed by Gil-Galad, et al. Sending him flying is probably plenty fine.



I am sufficiently confident, given past experience, that 'basic minions' can be considered little more than speedbumps for The Hero of Time. Sure, he'd be worn down by them if they were in an army and he was on his own, but grant Link/the player even a modicum of intelligence and he'd just use his tireless Epona or the Song of *Teleport* to avoid aforesaid army.


Except for one thing- Sauron generally is pretty good at the defensive stuff and understands that his minions are individually weak, so he doesn't deploy them in small numbers. Orcs also don't hang back while the hero kills their buddies like video game enemies tend to. The Master Sword might be a really good sword but fundamentally it can only be in one place at a time, which makes keeping a dozen orcs from shanking you really hard.




Sneaking into Mordor wouldn't exactly be difficult given how easy it was for two exhausted Hobbits - Link's snuck into (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzyb9LvOdeU) more tightly guarded locations (http://www.zeldawiki.org/Image:Forsaken_Fortress.jpg) before. That place had a searchlight, too.


Yeah, because the hobbit's plan was basically "go to the gate, see what happens." Without Gollum they would have been screwed, and I don't see Link working with Gollum particularly well- that whole baby eating thing...


The Ringwraiths (http://www.zeldawiki.org/Image:Phantom.gif), Witch King (http://www.zeldawiki.org/Image:Phantomganonww.png) and Balrog (http://www.zeldawiki.org/Image:TPFyrus.png)would be tough bosses, no doubt, but Link's beaten things tougher than them already. Hell, Shelob (http://www.zeldawiki.org/Image:Armogohma.jpg)would probably be a miniboss at the stage of the 'game' Link would be at by then.

So let's say link starts in the Shire. He makes his way to Rivendell with little fuss (if all it takes is flaming sticks to ward off Ringwraiths, then say hello to Fire Arrows, Din's Fire, and... Flaming Sticks), before heading to Lothlorien. Assuming he can't make it over the mountain (Goron Mask?) he heads into Moria, where he slaughters the Goblins. The Cave Troll might give him pause, but it's basically a miniboss. The Balrog might either be a 'weak-point attack-pattern' boss, vulnerable to the Light/Ice Arrows and the Master Sword, or it might be a puzzle boss - use a bomb or two to blow the bridge, then a hookshot to get to the other side. Note that if he's wearing his Goron Tunic, he's basically immune to the Balrog's attacks.

From Lothlorien he heads to Rohan on Epona. No problems here that I can see. A bit of horseback fighting to protect refugees on the way to Helm's Deep. The battle of Helm's Deep goes smoothly, thanks to
a) Link being practically a sniper with arrows.
b) Bombs being thrown into the densely packed Uruk-Hai ranks.
c) Bomb Mask?
d) Spin Attack in densely packed Uruk-Hai ranks, and at choke-points.
e) There are lots of pots in Helm's Deep - Link fights until he's low on health, then goes and re-fills his hearts. The Uruks will break eventually.

From Rohan he heads to Mordor, through Cirith Ungol. Kills Shelob (Light Arrows, Master Sword in the eye) and a few Orcs. Puts on a disguise, hides in a barrel, and spends a few humorous days trekking to Mt. Doom, where he drops the ring in, incorruptible due to the Triforce.

I agree the troll would not be too much of an obstacle. The balrog however I think you are completely and utterly wrong about. For starters you randomly assume that it plays by videogame rules, which, being from a book, it doesn't have to do. For another it single-handedly destroyed the Dwarves of Moria, survived the War of Wrath (which had an entire continent as collateral damage), took part in the Wars of Belieriand, and posseses a weapon so powerful it can seriously pain a creature capable of destroying nearly all light in the world. It also survived falling a rather incalculable amount in Moria, then the fight all the way back up, and after Gandalf finally killed it, he was so tired he was literally transparent. If Link does the bombs on the bridge technique (and avoids being grabbed at the same time) the Balrog is out of commission for under a week, counting the time it takes to climb back up to surface level.

Same goes for Shelob actually, the book makes it pretty clear that nobody is actually strong enough to penetrate her hide except herself. Running around and whacking her isn't gonna work, you actually have to have Sam's rather unique combination of martial suckage and willpower. Also, being intimidated by the Vial does not mean she has a fear of bright lights, but rather light concentrated in the Fountain of one of the most powerful elves in existance from a jewel that contains the light one of the original Trees of Valinor. Putting it mildly, it's a bit more than a maglight.

Helm's Deep- again with this random assumption that Middle Earth plays by Hyrul's rules, which being a completely different world, it most assuredly does not. The people of Rohan don't generally seal life-saving materials in jugs (which take a lot of time to make) so that the only way they can get them is to smash them. Any pots along the walls are likely to be filled with rocks for dropping on orcs.

[Fan]

This is like arguing with myself over final fantasy, none of us can win.

[Zencao]

I'm a little confused because no-one is actually following either scenario in the OP but instead mish-mashing it to suit their arguements :S

[Steven the Lich]

This is like arguing with myself over final fantasy, none of us can win. Diablo II is a cooler game than FF. Sorry, just had to poke at that.


Yeah, because the hobbit's plan was basically "go to the gate, see what happens." Without Gollum they would have been screwed, and I don't see Link working with Gollum particularly well- that whole baby eating thing... Gollum eats babies? Ewwwww... To the lava pits with him!
Links moral (And apparent lack of knowledge of Gollums past) will make it impossible to work with the guy. Link does not know Gollums true name, would not have the sympathy for him, etc. And Gollum is one of the few people who knows about that secret path into Mordor, and even then it was a trap intended to kill the hobbits.


Same goes for Shelob actually, the book makes it pretty clear that nobody is actually strong enough to penetrate her hide except Interesting, I didn't know that. However, Link would be able to move about and get Shelob to stab herself.

EDIT: Tis a grave omen that EE hath not yet madeth his appearance.

[Zeful]

Except for one thing- Sauron generally is pretty good at the defensive stuff and understands that his minions are individually weak, so he doesn't deploy them in small numbers. Orcs also don't hang back while the hero kills their buddies like video game enemies tend to. The Master Sword might be a really good sword but fundamentally it can only be in one place at a time, which makes keeping a dozen orcs from shanking you really hard.
Actually TP Link has quite a few abilities that would make a fight against the army really easy. His spins and back slice. With the magical "Bribery" Armor he takes no damage and can employ Great Spin, which would keep the numbers down. This coupled with the fact that Link can absorb the exhausted life force of his enemies to heal himself or power his armor (As rupees serve no other purpose in Middle Earth). He could fight like that for days on end.


Yeah, because the hobbit's plan was basically "go to the gate, see what happens." Without Gollum they would have been screwed, and I don't see Link working with Gollum particularly well- that whole baby eating thing...
Having only seen the movies (the books had a plastic edge that cut into my hand making reading not a fun thing) I don't know if Frodo and Samwise knew that. If not then Link doesn't and there aren't any problems save for the dirty looks he'd give to Gollum to ensure he respected personal property.


I agree the troll would not be too much of an obstacle. The balrog however I think you are completely and utterly wrong about. For starters you randomly assume that it plays by videogame rules, which, being from a book, it doesn't have to do. For another it single-handedly destroyed the Dwarves of Moria, survived the War of Wrath (which had an entire continent as collateral damage), took part in the Wars of Belieriand, and posseses a weapon so powerful it can seriously pain a creature capable of destroying nearly all light in the world. It also survived falling a rather incalculable amount in Moria, then the fight all the way back up, and after Gandalf finally killed it, he was so tired he was literally transparent. If Link does the bombs on the bridge technique (and avoids being grabbed at the same time) the Balrog is out of commission for under a week, counting the time it takes to climb back up to surface level.
And it's being fought with a sword designed to destroy evil and empowered by the magical light source of an entire dimension. This makes it a hard call.


Same goes for Shelob actually, the book makes it pretty clear that nobody is actually strong enough to penetrate her hide except herself. Running around and whacking her isn't gonna work, you actually have to have Sam's rather unique combination of martial suckage and willpower. Also, being intimidated by the Vial does not mean she has a fear of bright lights, but rather light concentrated in the Fountain of one of the most powerful elves in existance from a jewel that contains the light one of the original Trees of Valinor. Putting it mildly, it's a bit more than a maglight.
Again evil being against a sword designed to kill such beings. And wasn't Sting more responsible for Shelob's death than Samwise's willpower?


Helm's Deep- again with this random assumption that Middle Earth plays by Hyrul's rules, which being a completely different world, it most assuredly does not. The people of Rohan don't generally seal life-saving materials in jugs (which take a lot of time to make) so that the only way they can get them is to smash them. Any pots along the walls are likely to be filled with rocks for dropping on orcs.
Anything interacting with Link has to follow Hyrule's rules, otherwise they wouldn't be able to interact with Link. This means that Link's abilities are quantified differently. He is capable in his home universe to collect, form and use the exhausted life force of his slain enemies, this translates into the same ability in Middle Earth, because the Transition doesn't change Link. So he doesn't need to look for hearts in Jars just grab his bow and Hawkeye and snipe/boomerang hearts/rupees to himself. Or he could shoot Bomb arrows at people. Killing groups of oruk-hai.

[Selrahc]

The people of Rohan don't generally seal life-saving materials in jugs (which take a lot of time to make) so that the only way they can get them is to smash them.

Well in the Lord of the Rings games thats exactly what they do...

[Executor]

EDIT: Tis a grave omen that EE hath not yet madeth his appearance.

I'm sure the Evil Elite one hath a great multitude of tasks, and will make said appearance before the final hour :smallwink:

[warty goblin]

Actually TP Link has quite a few abilities that would make a fight against the army really easy. His spins and back slice. With the magical "Bribery" Armor he takes no damage and can employ Great Spin, which would keep the numbers down. This coupled with the fact that Link can absorb the exhausted life force of his enemies to heal himself or power his armor (As rupees serve no other purpose in Middle Earth). He could fight like that for days on end.

Arrows, particularly to the eyeball have a way of killing people. Orcs coincidentally are good enough shots to do that at close range.



Having only seen the movies (the books had a plastic edge that cut into my hand making reading not a fun thing) I don't know if Frodo and Samwise knew that. If not then Link doesn't and there aren't any problems save for the dirty looks he'd give to Gollum to ensure he respected personal property.

Go buy new books immediately. Trust me, you won't regret it. Frodo at least knew that Gollum liked to steal babies during his time in Mirkwood. One assumes he wasn't running a daycare center with them, although we could be wrong, and in fact Gollum just craved the unconditional love of the children he could no longer have.


And it's being fought with a sword designed to destroy evil and empowered by the magical light source of an entire dimension. This makes it a hard call.

Gandalf only barely beat the Balrog, and was:
1) A being of the same general type as the Balrog, that is to say a Maia
2) Packing Glamdring, a sword forged in Gondolin by master elven smiths specifically to kill the evil stuff used by Morgoth. Like, you know, balrogs.
3) Also a wizard.



Again evil being against a sword designed to kill such beings. And wasn't Sting more responsible for Shelob's death than Samwise's willpower?

Shelob is very fast for starters. For another her eyes are her only weak point, and again, she doesn't exactly hold still in battle either. The rest of her is pretty impenetrable.

"Knobbed and pitted with corruption was her age-old hide, but ever thickened from within with layer on layer of evil growth. The blade scored it with a dradful gash, but those hideous folds could not be pierced by any strength of man, not though Elf or Dwarf should forge the steel or the hand of Beren or Turin wield it. ...Shelob, with the driving force of her own cruel will, with strength greater than any warrior's hand, thrust herself upon a bitter spike. Deep, deep it pricked, as Sam was crushed slowly to the ground." (p 712 of my combined text).

In short the only way to actually pierce her hide is if she throws herself down upon the blade, because nothing else is strong enough. To do that you need to be able to withstand her smell, which nearly fells Sam on the spot, and Sam is pretty tough, even for a hobbit.



Anything interacting with Link has to follow Hyrule's rules, otherwise they wouldn't be able to interact with Link. This means that Link's abilities are quantified differently. He is capable in his home universe to collect, form and use the exhausted life force of his slain enemies, this translates into the same ability in Middle Earth, because the Transition doesn't change Link. So he doesn't need to look for hearts in Jars just grab his bow and Hawkeye and snipe/boomerang hearts/rupees to himself. Or he could shoot Bomb arrows at people. Killing groups of oruk-hai.

Erm, why? For one thing it is just as fair to invert this and to say that anything interacting with something from Middle Earth plays by Middle Earth rules, or they can't do anything at all. For another, Link is specifically in Middle Earth, so it would seem, at least to me, that Middle Earth rules apply rather by default. Link's powers, for purposes of this thread, work as advertised, but there's no reason to treat Middle Earth as Legend of Zelda: Rings of Evil, or any crap like that. So there's not going to be health potions inside every pot, enemies will attack as par normal for their Middle Earth behavior, large enemies don't automatically attack in predictable patterns and feature glaringly obvious weakspots, and orcs won't carry Rupees. They will most certainly pack orc rations and possibly orc medecine (which does seem to work pretty well), but unless you wanna stop in the middle of a fight and chug down greasy orc beverages while they perforate your kidneys, these don't do much good.

[Fan]

Anything interacting with Link has to follow Hyrule's rules, otherwise they wouldn't be able to interact with Link. This means that Link's abilities are quantified differently. He is capable in his home universe to collect, form and use the exhausted life force of his slain enemies, this translates into the same ability in Middle Earth, because the Transition doesn't change Link. So he doesn't need to look for hearts in Jars just grab his bow and Hawkeye and snipe/boomerang hearts/rupees to himself. Or he could shoot Bomb arrows at people. Killing groups of oruk-hai.

So wait, what your saying is that an ENITRE dimension has to conform to Link, that is about the Farthest thing from right I have EVER seen.

[Zeful]

Arrows, particularly to the eyeball have a way of killing people. Orcs coincidentally are good enough shots to do that at close range. Not while their target is moving a lot, which the back slice requires and the spins can be done.


Go buy new books immediately. Trust me, you won't regret it. Frodo at least knew that Gollum liked to steal babies during his time in Mirkwood. One assumes he wasn't running a daycare center with them, although we could be wrong, and in fact Gollum just craved the unconditional love of the children he could no longer have.
My point was is it mentioned after they start traveling with him to Mordor?


Gandalf only barely beat the Balrog, and was:
1) A being of the same general type as the Balrog, that is to say a Maia
2) Packing Glamdring, a sword forged in Gondolin by master elven smiths specifically to kill the evil stuff used by Morgoth. Like, you know, balrogs.
3) Also a wizard.
Link is:
1) An elfish kind of guy.
2) Packing The Master Sword, a sword forged by an unknown smith specifically to kill or repel any evil. Like, you know, balrogs.
3) A warrior specifically chosen by the deities of his world to destroy evil.
So two out of three ain't bad.


Shelob is very fast for starters. For another her eyes are her only weak point, and again, she doesn't exactly hold still in battle either. The rest of her is pretty impenetrable.

In short the only way to actually pierce her hide is if she throws herself down upon the blade, because nothing else is strong enough. To do that you need to be able to withstand her smell, which nearly fells Sam on the spot, and Sam is pretty tough, even for a hobbit.
I'll concede this point because I don't have any more arguments on this point at the moment, I may come back to it.



Erm, why? For one thing it is just as fair to invert this and to say that anything interacting with something from Middle Earth plays by Middle Earth rules, or they can't do anything at all. For another, Link is specifically in Middle Earth, so it would seem, at least to me, that Middle Earth rules apply rather by default. Link's powers, for purposes of this thread, work as advertised, but there's no reason to treat Middle Earth as Legend of Zelda: Rings of Evil, or any crap like that. So there's not going to be health potions inside every pot, enemies will attack as par normal for their Middle Earth behavior, large enemies don't automatically attack in predictable patterns and feature glaringly obvious weakspots, and orcs won't carry Rupees. They will most certainly pack orc rations and possibly orc medecine (which does seem to work pretty well), but unless you wanna stop in the middle of a fight and chug down greasy orc beverages while they perforate your kidneys, these don't do much good.

That was a mistake on my part, I chose a stupid argument to make that really doesn't hold up water. So I'll rescind my argument and place this one in it's place (which with my luck won't make any sense).

The op stated that Link is in middle earth as if teleported from Hyrule after killing/banishing/whatever Gannon from Hyrule. He placed no restrictions on Link's abilities so they work at 100% unless the rules of magic of Middle Earth specifically counteract them. So this means that he still has his 20 heart containers, his bombs, bows, other gear as well as the ability to use them all, right?
Link, along with everybody else in Hyrule, are capable of collecting rupees which can be found in tall grass, under rocks and in enemies that are incapable of carrying such. So where did the, rather large, bat hold the rupee which is nearly the same size it is? You don't see it holding it, but when the creature died (and later exploded) it was there sparkling away. Since rupees show up with more frequency than hearts it can be inferred that rupees are in fact the same substance as hearts, though in obviously lesser quantities, some kind of life force. Because they can be collected by everyone, it is either a property of the land, or a property of the people. Both positions can be argued and likely be right in there own way. Anyway, assuming it's an ability of the people then Link in middle earth could recharge in battle and possibly keep fighting for days on end (a flaming arrow to the chest, or any area of the body, is one fourth of a heart meaning it would take 80 arrows to bring Link down not impossible but hard, Oruk-hai might take down two and half to five hearts a hit in melee, but that's very survivable).
If the ability to turn small quantities of life force into an economically viable currency is a property of the land then Link will be overconfident and be more likely to retreat in battle. He's not stupid.

[Executor]

Zeful, not to rain on your parade or anything, but I think gameplay mechanics like beating hearts and rupees out of everything you kill... should be taken with just a wee grain of salt. :smallwink:

And no, Hyrule's laws do not apply to everything that Link interacts with. Because Link isn't in Hyrule. Link is in Middle-Earth and is subject to the laws of Middle-Earth's reality, he isn't changing Middle-Earth's reality just because he's from somewhere else, he's adapting to that reality because he is in Middle-Earth now. So no hearts fluttering out of the corpses of slain foes, sorry :smallwink:

[Mx.Silver]

:smallsigh: You missed one of my points. The prophecy does not apply.
By the way, it applies to living men. Just a point that means nothing in this thead.

The prophecy says no man. Merry is a hobbit.

[HolderofSecrets]

The prophecy says no man. Merry is a hobbit.

I thought Link was an elf. I mean the pointy ears mean he is not human.

[Fan]

Actually he's Hylian or something else silly like that, basiclly an elf without ANY beneifts.

[Executor]

Well apparently they're more potent, magically, than regular humans. And those long pointy ears let them hear the gods... which is profoundly useless in-game :smallannoyed:

[chiasaur11]

Well apparently they're more potent, magically, than regular humans. And those long pointy ears let them hear the gods... which is profoundly useless in-game :smallannoyed:

Unless it's why Link is playable at all. Which really gives the player massive responsibilities.

[Setra]

Get enough Orc Archers

One of them will hit. I'm sure Sauron has plenty.

Repeat til mortal wounding.

I really doubt Link could survive a head-on assault against Sauron and his minions. Seriously. First off, even ignoring Archers, he would be surrounded 100% of the time. Sure the spin is nice but it also has a downtime (ie. he stops for a second after using it) AND (usually) a charge-up.

There is no way to have him perma-spinning, and the second he stopped he'd be at the very least hit once. Even if it takes a long time to whittle him down Sauron has WAY more than enough forces for the job.

Also, don't assume the Tri-Force makes him immune to corruption, he was corrupted in Twilight Princess remember. The Master Sword on the other hand... well yeah that's shown to have resistance to corruption.

[Zeful]

Also, don't assume the Tri-Force makes him immune to corruption, he was corrupted in Twilight Princess remember. The Master Sword on the other hand... well yeah that's shown to have resistance to corruption.

Link wasn't corrupted, if he had been he would have become one of the monsters falling from the sky. He was changed into a wolf and later cursed to stay in that form. And this was all before the Triforce, an artifact of the gods that created his land. It's far more powerful than Sauron's ring.

Note: the forum doesn't seem like the acertation that Sauron isn't the most powerful, it ate my last post.

[Setra]

Link wasn't corrupted, if he had been he would have become one of the monsters falling from the sky. He was changed into a wolf and later cursed to stay in that form. And this was all before the Triforce, an artifact of the gods that created his land. It's far more powerful than Sauron's ring.

Note: the forum doesn't seem like the acertation that Sauron isn't the most powerful, it ate my last post.
Hmm that's true.

However the fact he turned into the wolf proves he isn't immune to evil magic. Sauron may not be the strongest but I'd say he's an few pegs above Ganon.

You know, being a God who was there when the World was Created and all. At least I presume he was from the last Link vs. Sauron thread where people mention this.

[Revanmal]

And no, Hyrule's laws do not apply to everything that Link interacts with. Because Link isn't in Hyrule. Link is in Middle-Earth and is subject to the laws of Middle-Earth's reality, he isn't changing Middle-Earth's reality just because he's from somewhere else, he's adapting to that reality because he is in Middle-Earth now. So no hearts fluttering out of the corpses of slain foes, sorry :smallwink:

If that's the case, then Link isn't really Link anymore. After all, I've never heard of a warrior capable of carrying thirty-odd tools, weapons and armors without feeling even the slightest bit weighted down. Especially heavy things like the ball and chain and the bombs, which he can carry several dozen of.

This is the root of the problem with vs. threads - the worlds rarely ever match up, but there needs to be some lee-way here. And if Link can store items almost as big as he is in a pocket dimension who says he doesn't have the ability to find gems from downed enemies and high grass?

[Zeful]

Yes but the god who created the Triforce of Courage is still a god. Sauron was a god but wasn't one when he created the One Ring.

Link isn't immune to evil magic, but the Master Sword is and confers much of that resistance to the wielder. The Triforce just cements that whole immunity to corruption (not evil Magic). Also I think the Wolf thing was The Plan of The Gods, and thus not evil magic. Gantz's curse does qualify though.

Also Link could simply move the ring himself, in wolf-form and just run in the needed direction. Would the Nagzul(sp?) really suspect a rather non-descript wolf be carrying the One Ring?

[Executor]

Perhaps, to make Link match up more with Middle-Earth, we retcon my opening post and set out specifically what equipment Link has. I think these would be reasonable:

Master Sword
Shield
Bow and Quiver
His tunics
Horse Call
Some bombs
Clawshot
Epona

How's that sound? Not too ridiculous and some of his heavier equipment can be carried on Epona when he's not using it.

Zeful: You forget that Nazgul sense the Ring's power. It doesn't matter who's carrying it, if it's there they will know it. Eru only knows how the one Nazgul didn't catch the Hobbits during the close-call on the road to Bree. If wolf-Link is carrying the Ring, the Ringwraiths will track him down like bloodhounds.

[Revanmal]

Perhaps, to make Link match up more with Middle-Earth, we retcon my opening post and set out specifically what equipment Link has. I think these would be reasonable:

Master Sword
Shield
Bow and Quiver
His tunics
Horse Call
Some bombs
Clawshot
Epona

How's that sound? Not too ridiculous and some of his heavier equipment can be carried on Epona when he's not using it.

That isn't fair at all. Sauron is essentially as strong as he is in the books, but Link is weakened despite being the underdog? Link should have all his abilities and equipment, just as Sauron can use all the ones at his disposal. Otherwise this is hardly even close to a fair fight.

[Executor]

Hey, i'm just trying to solve an intrinsic flaw with VS threads, because Hyrule and Middle-Earth do not match up at all. Would you prefer it if Link did have some kind of infinite pocket dimension in his hat, could use the still beating hearts of his enemies to heal himself and break any jar or cut any blade of grass for money and healing? :smallamused:

[Revanmal]

Hey, i'm just trying to solve an intrinsic flaw with VS threads, because Hyrule and Middle-Earth do not match up at all. Would you prefer it if Link did have some kind of infinite pocket dimension in his hat, could use the still beating hearts of his enemies to heal himself and break any jar or cut any blade of grass for money and healing? :smallamused:

How about this: If Link loses most of his equipment and hearts, Sauron loses most of his armies and corruption powers. :smallamused:

[Executor]

You know, gameplay mechanics should always be taken with a grain of salt :smallwink: LoZ should be no different, honestly. In a VS thread involving Starcraft, no one honestly thinks that stimpacked Marines can outrun Wraith space fighters. Why should we honestly think that Link carries a pocket dimension in his hat and his lifeforce is ACTUALLY represented as hearts? Shouldn't we be looking more into the lore and backstory of the games to get a better view on his 'real' capabilities?

[Revanmal]

I have yet to see any lore involved with Link's ability to collect Hearts from enemies and Hammer-hat, but then again most of the Lore of LoZ is focused on vague legends and celebrating the deeds of the Hero of Time. The only equipment he's ever mentioned having is the Triforce and the Master Sword, but Link has been using many of the same tools and collecting hearts from monsters since his adventures first began. They're as much a part of him as any of the legends, so to be honest I think its perfectly possible, considering Hyrule was created by Goddesses who left pieces of themselves behind that grant wishes.

[Bago!!!]

I think Link wins in either case. Why? Because the original cast succeeded on their own. Link would never be bearing the ring in either case, because it was frodo's burden. And frodo would be journey with him, so who knows. Frodo would stand up for smeagel. He's done it before.

Link can only be a boon, and would be EXTREMELY helpful. Against evil, against sauron. He could take the WK, but would almost die, but so did Merry and Eiowyn. And you know what? They lived because of Aragon. No reason that wouldn't happen again.

All the monsters that he would face would be defeated since he has a powerful sword perfect against evil, and a grappling hook bow thingy, bombs, and magic. Probally even more abilities.


NO! We cannot have the thread back again! Not just yet....... But soon.....:smallamused:

[Steven the Lich]

Something comes to mind... If the Last Alliance and Fellowship are helping link, then its not really Link vs. Sauron... More like Link and Middle Earth vs. Sauron or something.

Executor has a very good point. In WoW, if Onyxia swipes her giant claw at you, you take damage. Thats almost it. You don't go flying. If you get bitten by a dragon, you don't lose any body parts. It is all health points.
Also, the grand marshal claymore takes up the same amount of space as a lizards gut in a back bag. See where this is going?
Question, did the argument of Link vs. Sephiroth involve every single item Link at one point possessed? Who won that anyway?


NO! We cannot have the thread back again! Not just yet....... But soon..... Oh come on... I think we have enough videos about beta to start it up anew. I think now would be a good time for it. We're going to start it up sooner or later anyway. Besides, I want something to do. :smallfrown:

[Fan]

Sephie kills Link EASILY, he usues a single Supernova, and then stabs him once, bam link is dead, that isn't even a battle, LoZ, and FF are on tottaly different power scales, that would be like pitting some Protoss, against a modern day soldier, that guy would be DEAD.

[Setra]

Sephie kills Link EASILY, he usues a single Supernova, and then stabs him once, bam link is dead, that isn't even a battle, LoZ, and FF are on tottaly different power scales, that would be like pitting some Protoss, against a modern day soldier, that guy would be DEAD.

I'm praying EvilElitist doesn't still wander these forums.

[Zaphrasz]

I read that thread, that legendary thread. Link decisively won that. It was pretty much decided that Link has enough cheese available to him that few things can take him out.

Twilight Princess Link, on the other hand, not as much cheese. No infinite magic and infinite health tricks for him, no god power granting masks, no time manipulation.

That being said, if we put Link in Middle Earth and have him fight on the side of the Fellowship or the Last Alliance, Sauron gets taken down even worse than before. Link would not be able to take on all of Sauron's armies at once, but he brings a great deal to the table.

First and foremost, Link would probably be immune to the ring. He holds the Triforce of Courage, the pure essence of the resolve and life force of the creating triumvirate. These are not lesser gods, of which the Zeldaverse has plenty, but the ones who created the world, life, and the laws which they follow. Sauron doesn't come close.

His combat skills are not in question, I hope. He knows sword techniques that can handle swarms of enemies, he is agile, and can take a beating. In the area of ranged attacks, in some incarnations, Link can fire faster than Legolas, and almost as accurately. He is Hylian, not a man of Middle Earth, so he can take on the Witch King. His sword is consistently described as the blade of evil's bane. His presence can help win battles.

[warty goblin]

One interesting question that springs to my mind is this: Why does holding the Triforce of Courage make a person incorruptable? Impossible to intimidate, and quite possibly lacking in common sense I understand, but I'm less sure about corruption. I can think of a lot of examples of evil people/things who displayed great courage, just as I can think of a lot of good ones who don't.

I can even think of people displaying great courage in choosing to walk a path they know leads to darkness, but feel that it is the only viable option (Londo Molari comes to mind here). This seems to me to potentially be a real weakness if Frodo carries the Ring after Rivendell, since it could quite easily play on Link, asking why is the innocent hobbit assigned such a cruel load? Wouldn't the brave and right thing to do be to take it from him, to carry it yourself? After all, Link is a hero, and Frodo is just some minor country gentleman from a little quiet land, and not cut out for such dangerous work.

[Mx.Silver]

You know, gameplay mechanics should always be taken with a grain of salt :smallwink:
Or ignored altogether if possible.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Quid pro quo,
"You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means."

Quid pro quo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quid_pro_quo) is Latin for "What for what," literally, and is used to indicate a more or less equal exchange.

Quod erat demonstrandum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quod_erat_demonstrandum) literally means "that which was to be demonstrated," and is used to indicate that your argument has reached its conclusion by demonstrating what you set out to demonstrate.

I leave it to you to decide which one you really meant.

This message brought to you by the Concilium Populusque Ob Usum Accuratum Linguae Latinae.

[Drascin]

One interesting question that springs to my mind is this: Why does holding the Triforce of Courage make a person incorruptable? Impossible to intimidate, and quite possibly lacking in common sense I understand, but I'm less sure about corruption. I can think of a lot of examples of evil people/things who displayed great courage, just as I can think of a lot of good ones who don't.

I can even think of people displaying great courage in choosing to walk a path they know leads to darkness, but feel that it is the only viable option (Londo Molari comes to mind here). This seems to me to potentially be a real weakness if Frodo carries the Ring after Rivendell, since it could quite easily play on Link, asking why is the innocent hobbit assigned such a cruel load? Wouldn't the brave and right thing to do be to take it from him, to carry it yourself? After all, Link is a hero, and Frodo is just some minor country gentleman from a little quiet land, and not cut out for such dangerous work.

Well, Twilight Princess Link didn't face actual corruption influence, but some Links have, and they've always come out on top - hell, when one Link entered a place that forced people's inner demons and insecurities to come out and shaped them as monsters that were according to them, Link transformed into a freaking bunny, because of the kind of purity of character he had. This makes people put a great deal of confidence in the resistance of whatever Link we're discussing to ploys that rely on corruption and ambition - Sam seemed highly resistant to the Ring because he cared not for power, and Link is something like that, times a hundred. Another Link shared his soul with a god-demon (the Fierce Deity Mask) and was acknowledged by the lore to have been unfazed by its corrupting influence. And so on. It seems a hallmark of most Links to be able to resist such things by virtue of having a humble character backed up by nigh-infinite amounts of willpower and mystical resistance siphoning right out from the setting's equivalent of a third part of Ilúvatar. He might end up giving in after years of constant assault, but in such threads that is a non-issue.

Plus, you don't seem to get Link. He does not take anything he isn't freely given except from his declared enemies, he does not change the decisions of others forcibly even for their own good. If he did, Zelda games would have been much easier and lacking a lot of those annoying escort missions, because I think I echo every Zelda player ever when I say we've all thought at one time "Why doesn't this idiot just force them to stay put so he can go alone and deal with it?!". The answer seems to be that Link does not change what other do, he just helps them reach whatever they want to do. The Ring could amplify existant traits to terrifying, self-destructive power, but could never induce that which was not there even if faintly - that is one of its hallmarks, which means most of the Ring's usual methods would be as effective as a paddle boat in an asphalt road.

[Fan]

Yes, and the fact that he walks into random peoples houses, and steals money, AND LIFE FORCE isn't evil -rolls eyes-

[HolderofSecrets]

Yes, and the fact that he walks into random peoples houses, and steals money, AND LIFE FORCE isn't evil -rolls eyes-

Just another game play mechanic, which should be ignored. Tell me how many video games that don't reward or that even punish an adventurer for entering a house univited and taking everything that isnt nailed down.

[Hasivel]

Minish Cap states that health and rupees are explicitly put there by the Minish Folk for Link's (and any other good-hearted person's) use, and apparently they also repair pots when nobody's looking which is why stuff regenerates when you walk out.

Hence there's no theft, no person was storing health or rupees in that jar and they didn't know they were there when Link took them, nor is there any reason for that person to think there won't still be health and rupees in the jar should they smash it a moment later.

This also establishes that, since there are no Minish in Middle Earth, Middle Earth jars will not likely yield up rupees and hearts (Unless the LOTR gameverse is included, which also has that mechanic without the lampshading of Minish).

On the other hand hearts appearing from defeated enemies don't have a connection to the Minish but apparently come from the nature of Link's weaponry or some innate power of his, so it's also reasonable to think Link will be getting hearts from downed foes.

On the army of Orcs surrounding Link, the orcs appear to be remarkable cowards who will retreat, even against orders, from anything that doesn't seem to be a pushover, such as abandoning their spears in the face of the Rohirrim's charge. Ordering the army to keep attacking across a carpet of their own dead against that one guy in green who just sliced fifty of them into hamburger probably won't work.

[chiasaur11]

Just another game play mechanic, which should be ignored. Tell me how many video games that don't reward or that even punish an adventurer for entering a house univited and taking everything that isnt nailed down.

Yeah.

Besides, no-one seems to mind. Hyrulian hospitality seems to be "Anything in reach is yours."

Some countries just have odd customs.

[Fan]

Um, you do know that, the charge of Rohirim was over TEN THOUSAND SPEARS, with an epic level Cavalier/Order of the purple dragon, leading the charge that totals up to be about
X2, X3, X4 X4 damage if he takes the right feats.

[warty goblin]

Well, Twilight Princess Link didn't face actual corruption influence, but some Links have, and they've always come out on top - hell, when one Link entered a place that forced people's inner demons and insecurities to come out and shaped them as monsters that were according to them, Link transformed into a freaking bunny, because of the kind of purity of character he had. This makes people put a great deal of confidence in the resistance of whatever Link we're discussing to ploys that rely on corruption and ambition - Sam seemed highly resistant to the Ring because he cared not for power, and Link is something like that, times a hundred. Another Link shared his soul with a god-demon (the Fierce Deity Mask) and was acknowledged by the lore to have been unfazed by its corrupting influence. And so on. It seems a hallmark of most Links to be able to resist such things by virtue of having a humble character backed up by nigh-infinite amounts of willpower and mystical resistance siphoning right out from the setting's equivalent of a third part of Ilúvatar. He might end up giving in after years of constant assault, but in such threads that is a non-issue.

Fair enough, I wasn't saying that being brave would lead to corruption, just that it didn't seem like it would neccesarily protect against it either.



Plus, you don't seem to get Link. He does not take anything he isn't freely given except from his declared enemies,

Killing people and taking their stuff- done in the street it's banditry and you get executed for it, done in a dungeon it's heroic adventure and you get the hot chick.
Less cynically I will note that the Fellowship never does this. Frodo and Sam scavenge orc equipment from the dead in Cirith Ungol, but they don't kill them, and by the end Frodo even refuses to carry a sword.



he does not change the decisions of others forcibly even for their own good. If he did, Zelda games would have been much easier and lacking a lot of those annoying escort missions, because I think I echo every Zelda player ever when I say we've all thought at one time "Why doesn't this idiot just force them to stay put so he can go alone and deal with it?!". The answer seems to be that Link does not change what other do, he just helps them reach whatever they want to do. The Ring could amplify existant traits to terrifying, self-destructive power, but could never induce that which was not there even if faintly - that is one of its hallmarks, which means most of the Ring's usual methods would be as effective as a paddle boat in an asphalt road.

Not really- look at Boromir. All he wanted was to save Gondor, yet the Ring twisted that into being willing to assault Frodo, something I would argue that was not present in Boromir before he saw the Ring.

[Selrahc]

Killing people and taking their stuff- done in the street it's banditry and you get executed for it, done in a dungeon it's heroic adventure and you get the hot chick.

If you're the hero of time, and the things in the dungeon are evil monsters following the quite ludicrously evil Gannondorf I don't think there is that much moral ambiguity. Any more than the fellowship should be arrested for killing orcs.



Less cynically I will note that the Fellowship never does this. Frodo and Sam scavenge orc equipment from the dead in Cirith Ungol, but they don't kill them, and by the end Frodo even refuses to carry a sword.

Why would they need to? Orcs probably have substandard rubbish. The fellowship has high craftsmanship weapons and armour, specifically made for them.

And the one time looting the dead is useful, Frodo and Sam do it.

[warty goblin]

If you're the hero of time, and the things in the dungeon are evil monsters following the quite ludicrously evil Gannondorf I don't think there is that much moral ambiguity. Any more than the fellowship should be arrested for killing orcs.

I'm really not sure that there is a substantial difference between walking into somebody's sunny little hut with the flowers outside and killing them to take their gold than there is walking into someone's dark crypt with the withered trees outside and killing them to take their magical artifact, except for the number of times the atmosphere can be described as 'moldering' or 'redolant of decay'.

In other words, if killing something to take it's property is wrong, than killing something to take it's property is wrong, even if that property is some vastly powerful artifact required to save the world. It might be justifiable given the circumstances, but it is no different in actual deed from knifing somebody and taking their wallet.



Why would they need to? Orcs probably have substandard rubbish. The fellowship has high craftsmanship weapons and armour, specifically made for them.

And the one time looting the dead is useful, Frodo and Sam do it.

Looting from the already dead is a significantly different act than killing something in order to loot it. In one you are merely doing what is neccessary to survive by taking from something that is no longer capable of using it's former property. In the other you are using violence in order to obtain the property of the other. Saying the two are equivilent are rather like saying that eating an apple you find growing in the woods is equivilent to beating somebody to death in the produce department so you can eat their apple.

[Innis Cabal]

Looting from the already dead is a significantly different act than killing something in order to loot it. In one you are merely doing what is neccessary to survive by taking from something that is no longer capable of using it's former property. In the other you are using violence in order to obtain the property of the other. Saying the two are equivilent are rather like saying that eating an apple you find growing in the woods is equivilent to beating somebody to death in the produce department so you can eat their apple.

No...thats flawed in more ways we can just sit down and civily discuss. Looting a corpse is by most standards, bad juju. Killing someone -then- taking their stuff is bad juju as well. Both can be done for the reason you provided. To live. In the end, thats all a war is. Killing people so you yourself don't die. Simple as that. They are in fact, about as equal as bad juju can get.

[Oslecamo]

I must say, people are exagerating Sauron's army.

His force numbers on the tens of thousands, not millions. Plus, he really can't afford to send all his troops against a single target.

And if he throws everything he has at Link, the fellowship wins, because Sauron will be defenseless.

As for armored trolls, well, Link already killed dragons(the toughest nongod guys in Middle Earth), fire breathing dinossaurs and 3 meter high constructs with full plate wich crush stone like it was butter. Armored trolls are nasty, but not really as dangerous as what Link is expected to face late game.

Link has already shown to be highly resistant to corruption. Frankly, the whole idea of Twilight princess is that he doesn't go emo or becomes a monster when he enters the twilight zone.

Now, cheese time!

1-Pick money armor, wich absorbs damage in return for eating your rupees.

2-Laugh as Sauron's minions run towards you.

3-Kill many with whirlwind attacks, take some hits back, losing some money.

4-Pick up the money wich mysteriously appears whenever Link kills something.

5-?

6-Profit.

[Steven the Lich]

Something comes to mind... If the Last Alliance and Fellowship are helping link, then its not really Link vs. Sauron... More like Link and Middle Earth vs. Sauron or something. Alright, this was ignored. Link is just being added on to the story, which leads to Saurons defeat anyway. This doesn't seem to strike me as a vs. Thread. Rather more an experimental thread discussing how Link would affect the story (Although we are now stuck on gameplay mechanics), and we know he would make things move faster likely. That said, maybe we should reorganize this into a more proper vs. Thread.

[Executor]

Indeed, thinking back on it, that would be best Steven. What do you propose?

[Bago!!!]

I didn't agree with you at first Steve, but your actuelly right.... one is just adding him to the story!



NO! You fool! To move our hand so early would be fool hardy. Patience minion..... Patience..... Besides, we need a opening movie for the thread. lol

[Steven the Lich]

Maybe a more head on battle between the two.
Maybe we can have Sauron before the third age invade Hyrule as well, in a separate version, to resolve the gameplay mechanic argument (Hopefully). As for the War of the Ring... Not a clue.

Well, hey, I don't have the foggiest idea what to use for the video. Besides... I'm not your minion... Your mine! You were a goblin when I was a lich. You only copied my style with your avatar. I still have your application... Okay, no I don't, it mysteriously vanished one night... But minion I am not! I have my own castle in a stick figure comic I hope to make (Must contact Devigod and get working on my script once more!).

[Selrahc]

I'm really not sure that there is a substantial difference between walking into somebody's sunny little hut with the flowers outside and killing them to take their gold than there is walking into someone's dark crypt with the withered trees outside and killing them to take their magical artifact, except for the number of times the atmosphere can be described as 'moldering' or 'redolant of decay'.


You actually think Link is evil? And pretty much all fantasy heroes are evil?

Link doesn't have any moral ambiguity to his actions at all. He is the hero, literally born for the specific purpose of thwarting evil. He is killing beings that are inherently bad, and which are serving Gannondorf, a dude whose entire philosophy seems to be about gaining infinite power then being evil with it.

You see no difference between that and say... knifing some guy in the street and taking his wallet?



His force numbers on the tens of thousands, not millions. Plus, he really can't afford to send all his troops against a single target.

HOOBOY. Well according to the Sauron supporters in the Lich King thread? Saurons army numbers close to a million, and may be substantially more. He can also create orcs at a rate of about 100000 per month.

I frankly found it all ridiculous, but thats what they were saying.

Also: Orcs are immune to disease, being raised as undead, they have great gear, warmachines that would make a cannon brigade jealous, thousands of powerful spellcasters, great medicine, incredible morale, are backed by indestructable ninja trolls, can shoot lasers out of their eyes...

[Steven the Lich]

Also: Orcs are immune to disease, being raised as undead, they have great gear, warmachines that would make a cannon brigade jealous, thousands of powerful spellcasters, great medicine, incredible morale, are backed by indestructable ninja trolls, can shoot lasers out of their eyes... Maybe in Warhammer 40k.
Troll ninjas FTW! Wait... whaaaaaaaa?

[Bago!!!]

How about orcs?

WWWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRG!!!!!

[TheTurnipKing]

Link clearly wins.

Sauron is just another fantasy villian with a huge glaring weak spot that Link can exploit.

[warty goblin]

You actually think Link is evil? And pretty much all fantasy heroes are evil?

Link doesn't have any moral ambiguity to his actions at all. He is the hero, literally born for the specific purpose of thwarting evil. He is killing beings that are inherently bad, and which are serving Gannondorf, a dude whose entire philosophy seems to be about gaining infinite power then being evil with it.

You see no difference between that and say... knifing some guy in the street and taking his wallet?

What evil does Gannondorf actually intend to do? Invade, sack loot and kill people? Link does that, only he does it to ugly things, whereas the things Gannondorf would presumably be killing are pretty things. Destroy entire species in genocidal spasms of violence? I'd imagine Link has come pretty darn close to this by now. Destroy the world? Admittedly a bad thing and one that should be stopped. I've never clamed there is no difference, and heroes are in general a better lot than the evil things, but heroes are not, by any evenly applied moral code shining beacons of morality.

Most heroes are not as bad as the evil creatures, since they do occasionally do something besides kill things and take their stuff. Occasionally they help somebody find something left in a dangerous place, which usually involves killing things and usually taking their stuff, or perhaps escorting somebody through dangerous territory, which also leads to killing things and taking their stuff. They are usually also generously paid for this. Every once and a while, they will give somebody some free medicine or money, which was aquired by killing things and taking their stuff. At best we are looking at a bandit or mercenary who also donates to an orphanage here.

Evil creatures pretty much just seem to kill things and take their stuff, so they are bandits/mercenaries who don't donate to charity. Worse yes, but not by a lot.

[chiasaur11]

How about orcs?

WWWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRG!!!!!

You spelled "Orks" wrong.
(would an increase in Dakka be appropriate here?)

[GoC]

HOOBOY. Well according to the Sauron supporters in the Lich King thread? Saurons army numbers close to a million, and may be substantially more. He can also create orcs at a rate of about 100000 per month.

I frankly found it all ridiculous, but thats what they were saying.

Also: Orcs are immune to disease, being raised as undead, they have great gear, warmachines that would make a cannon brigade jealous, thousands of powerful spellcasters, great medicine, incredible morale, are backed by indestructable ninja trolls, can shoot lasers out of their eyes...

They never said they had laser eyes...

[Selrahc]

What evil does Gannondorf actually intend to do?

Gain infinite power and take over reality. Turning the entirety of existence into a nightmare realm of torment and death.


Most heroes are not as bad as the evil creatures, since they do occasionally do something besides kill things and take their stuff.

Look at motives. Link is killing monsters in order to protect people, and to save all of reality. He is attacking beings that are quite capable of defending themselves, and if left unchecked would destroy civilization, even without Gannon.

He isn't doing it so he can get some stuff. He isn't killing for the sake of killing. He doesn't go after races because they are ugly either, because numerous times through the Zelda series you get some fairly monstrous looking good guys, who are not killed because they are peaceful and not helping Gannon. Similarly you find some members of a species as evil, and some as peaceful people who you talk to. It's not about a divide of pretty and ugly.

Link is protecting those who are attempting to live in peace. He is stopping the entire world being made into a hell forever. Look at the motives of people, not at the actions alone.

[Dervag]

He isn't doing it so he can get some stuff. He isn't killing for the sake of killing. He doesn't go after races because they are ugly either, because numerous times through the Zelda series you get some fairly monstrous looking good guys, who are not killed because they are peaceful and not helping Gannon. Similarly you find some members of a species as evil, and some as peaceful people who you talk to. It's not about a divide of pretty and ugly. For an example of this, look at his stance towards Deku Scrubs. Deku Scrubs are not, by and large, pretty. Many of them attack Link on sight, and are attacked in turn.

But on a number of other occasions, Link has dealt with Deku Scrubs peacefully, trading or negotiating with them as he would with humans or any of the other friendly species of his world.

[chiasaur11]

Gain infinite power and take over reality. Turning the entirety of existence into a nightmare realm of torment and death.



Look at motives. Link is killing monsters in order to protect people, and to save all of reality. He is attacking beings that are quite capable of defending themselves, and if left unchecked would destroy civilization, even without Gannon.

He isn't doing it so he can get some stuff. He isn't killing for the sake of killing. He doesn't go after races because they are ugly either, because numerous times through the Zelda series you get some fairly monstrous looking good guys, who are not killed because they are peaceful and not helping Gannon. Similarly you find some members of a species as evil, and some as peaceful people who you talk to. It's not about a divide of pretty and ugly.

Link is protecting those who are attempting to live in peace. He is stopping the entire world being made into a hell forever. Look at the motives of people, not at the actions alone.

And the few decent Moblins (Moe, and that one guy in a cave) Link doesn't kill.

Plus most of the things he kills aren't sapient.

[warty goblin]

Gain infinite power and take over reality. Turning the entirety of existence into a nightmare realm of torment and death.



Look at motives. Link is killing monsters in order to protect people, and to save all of reality. He is attacking beings that are quite capable of defending themselves, and if left unchecked would destroy civilization, even without Gannon.

He isn't doing it so he can get some stuff. He isn't killing for the sake of killing. He doesn't go after races because they are ugly either, because numerous times through the Zelda series you get some fairly monstrous looking good guys, who are not killed because they are peaceful and not helping Gannon. Similarly you find some members of a species as evil, and some as peaceful people who you talk to. It's not about a divide of pretty and ugly.

Link is protecting those who are attempting to live in peace. He is stopping the entire world being made into a hell forever. Look at the motives of people, not at the actions alone.

Nevertheless I think my fundamental point remains- if it wrong for an evil creature to kill somebody and take their possessions, then it wrong for the hero to do so as well. And if it is not wrong for the hero to do it, why should it be wrong for the evil creature? Motivations aren't particularly useful here, since one has to ask, why would somebody follow a person who wants to make the world a hell? Maybe hell for the other beings is a paradise for them, and they live torment with the world it it's current state, in which case you can't blame them for trying to escape it any more than you can blame Link for trying to prevent it. Maybe they are being decieved and not really evil (the apparent existance of non-evil ones seems to suggest this possibility), in which case killing them strikes me as a bit hasty.

Also I seem to recall a lot of Zelda games being about going into dungeons to kill the guardians and gain some piece of magical equipment, which isn't defending anybody. It's a pretty clear invasion of another being's home, in which case you can hardly call them evil for defending it, given that when a hero defends somebody's home it is considered good.

[Hasivel]

Nevertheless I think my fundamental point remains- if it wrong for an evil creature to kill somebody and take their possessions, then it wrong for the hero to do so as well. And if it is not wrong for the hero to do it, why should it be wrong for the evil creature? Motivations aren't particularly useful here, since one has to ask, why would somebody follow a person who wants to make the world a hell? Maybe hell for the other beings is a paradise for them, and they live torment with the world it it's current state, in which case you can't blame them for trying to escape it any more than you can blame Link for trying to prevent it. Maybe they are being decieved and not really evil (the apparent existance of non-evil ones seems to suggest this possibility), in which case killing them strikes me as a bit hasty.

Also I seem to recall a lot of Zelda games being about going into dungeons to kill the guardians and gain some piece of magical equipment, which isn't defending anybody. It's a pretty clear invasion of another being's home, in which case you can hardly call them evil for defending it, given that when a hero defends somebody's home it is considered good.You're following the logical fallacy dicto simpliciter ad dictum secundum quid. Excessive generalization to avoid exceptions. It is wrong to cut open a person's face with a knife. That does not make a plastic surgeon a criminal when he operates. It is wrong to grab citizen and chain him in your basement for fifty years. That does not make police criminals for operating prisons.

As for your specific points:
Deceived Monsters: Link's sword is the bane of Evil. Stabbing townspeople with it doesn't hurt them at all, and even an ordinary non-evil chicken can take dozens of blows from it without getting more than irritated. If the monster wasn't really evil it wouldn't vaporize when he smacks it.

Why would Monsters follow Ganon: A majority of them are not sentient at all but constructs or mutated rabid beasts. Of those who aren't I can think of many reasons, foremost that they think he'll win, and want to be on the winning side so that when the world becomes Hell they'll be in the position of tormentor, rather than tormentee.

Going Into Dungeons is Home Invasion: You generally go into the dungeons because they have something stolen hidden there, pieces of the triforce in the first game, for instance, and there's imprisoned maidens in Link to the Past. Would you truly care to argue that if a man has a little girl he's kidnapped in his home, the Police are in the wrong to invade his home and get her out?

[Oslecamo]

Also I seem to recall a lot of Zelda games being about going into dungeons to kill the guardians and gain some piece of magical equipment, which isn't defending anybody. It's a pretty clear invasion of another being's home, in which case you can hardly call them evil for defending it, given that when a hero defends somebody's home it is considered good.

Let's make a recap of the last games, shall we?

Twilight princess-Link releases light spirits while stoping Gandonorf from turning everybody in mindless shaddow minions, saves Zoras from freezing all to death, reconciliates gorons and shaddow people with everybody else.

Wind Waker-World was about to be destroyed by Gandonorf, helps a lot of guys on the way, including reflorestation, saving great faeries, and making several people's nonviolent dreams come true.

Makora's mask:Stops the moon from falling on Earth. Do I need to say more?

Ocarina of Time-Saves Goros from starvation, Saves Zora from freezing again, stop Gandonorf from turning everybody into ghosts and undeads, like seen in the ruins of Hyrule.

Oracle of Ages/time: space time is completely messed up by bad guys, Link has to set things right before reality colapses on itself.


Remember, 90% of the time it was Gandonorf or some other evil guy wich awakened/hired the protectors of the dungeons. It's more like sneacking into the enemy's secret base to retrieve the secret plans than assaulting someone's house.

This is, who would want to live into a dungeon full of traps out of their free will?

[warty goblin]

Let's make a recap of the last games, shall we?

Twilight princess-Link releases light spirits while stoping Gandonorf from turning everybody in mindless shaddow minions, saves Zoras from freezing all to death, reconciliates gorons and shaddow people with everybody else.

Wind Waker-World was about to be destroyed by Gandonorf, helps a lot of guys on the way, including reflorestation, saving great faeries, and making several people's nonviolent dreams come true.

Makora's mask:Stops the moon from falling on Earth. Do I need to say more?

Ocarina of Time-Saves Goros from starvation, Saves Zora from freezing again, stop Gandonorf from turning everybody into ghosts and undeads, like seen in the ruins of Hyrule.

Oracle of Ages/time: space time is completely messed up by bad guys, Link has to set things right before reality colapses on itself.


And by the end of Mass Effect, Commander Shephard has saved the entire galaxy from being enslaved and killed, but, assuming you play Renegade, is a bribe-taking, blackmailing, emotionally abusive, zenophobic bastard whose first reaction is to shoot large holes in anybody who gets in his/her way. It is perfectly possible to save the world and still be an immoral git, just one that is interested in still existing. (Note: I'm not saying Link is an immoral git here, what I'm saying is that saving your own skin along with everybody else's isn't neccesarilly proof of morality, merely pragmatism).

Also, what's so bad about the undead?

[chiasaur11]

And by the end of Mass Effect, Commander Shephard has saved the entire galaxy from being enslaved and killed, but, assuming you play Renegade, is a bribe-taking, blackmailing, emotionally abusive, xenophobic bastard whose first reaction is to shoot large holes in anybody who gets in his/her way. It is perfectly possible to save the world and still be an immoral git, just one that is interested in still existing. (Note: I'm not saying Link is an immoral git here, what I'm saying is that saving your own skin along with everybody else's isn't neccesarilly proof of morality, merely pragmatism).

Also, what's so bad about the undead?

They want to kill you and eat your brains. It's people like you who opposed the Mcninja initative on the ballot.

And Link spends most of his time not spent killing monstrosities who would kill everyone if they got a chance doing random good deeds for the townsfolk. Sure the player knows he'll get loot for it, but there's no sign he does. He's just that kinda guy.

[Oslecamo]

And by the end of Mass Effect, Commander Shephard has saved the entire galaxy from being enslaved and killed, but, assuming you play Renegade, is a bribe-taking, blackmailing, emotionally abusive, zenophobic bastard whose first reaction is to shoot large holes in anybody who gets in his/her way. It is perfectly possible to save the world and still be an immoral git, just one that is interested in still existing. (Note: I'm not saying Link is an immoral git here, what I'm saying is that saving your own skin along with everybody else's isn't neccesarilly proof of morality, merely pragmatism).

Also, what's so bad about the undead?

So, what would Link need to do to be good in your point of view? Helping others while shooting himself? What do you want, a hero or a martyr?

Does Link kills everything that crosses his path? No.
Is he bribeable? No. Gandonorf more than once tries to recruit him.
Blackmailing and emotionally abusive? He doesn't even talk.

Do I need to remind you that when infiltrating the King's castle, Link chooses to don't kill the guards, because they're just doing his job?

I don't know what else to say. At this rate, you'll say that Link is evil because he drinks milk wich he has bought with his own nonviolent work, because he's clearly should go out there and seek some starving children to give the milk, even if Link is starving himself.

As for undeads, in Zelda universe they are tormented souls doomed to suffer and spread suffering until some hero releases them.

[Bago!!!]

WG is just having fun with you guys. :smallsmile:
He's also trying to get the last word. He's playing the perfect role of devil's advocate.


Orcs, orks, I always get them mixed up.


LIES! I am not your minion. You are mine, this lich is my avatar because I love Iron Kingdoms, being a goblin does not mean I am automatically your minion, I never got an application (and if I did, I would lose it by accident like everything else), and YES! You should contact Devigod! DARN IT! I AM EAGER!!!!
And yes you are my minion because I am the older one. :smallamused: And as for video, find someone who can make it (or learn how to make it online), use cinematics from movies and games, and use some awesome music! ( I would use Path myself).

[Steven the Lich]

LIES! I am not your minion. You are mine, this lich is my avatar because I love Iron Kingdoms, being a goblin does not mean I am automatically your minion, I never got an application (and if I did, I would lose it by accident like everything else), and YES! You should contact Devigod! DARN IT! I AM EAGER!!!!
And yes you are my minion because I am the older one. And as for video, find someone who can make it (or learn how to make it online), use cinematics from movies and games, and use some awesome music! ( I would use Path myself). I rose through the ranks quicker than you! I was dwarf when you were a halfling! Well... not literally. Besides, as a lich, I should be naturally older (I'm a skeleton for crying out loud!). And you sent me the application, I just lost it. I think someone snuck into my castle and took it (I can only imagine who)...
DANG IT, we should be getting back on track here!

New proposals for a battle.

1. Basically the OP at the Last Alliance, and he heads up against Sauron on his own.
2. After Ganondorf was defeated upon the Hylian fields, a rift opened out. A surprised Link stands in awe, as the portal appears ominous. He and Zelda go to Hyrule to find someone who may know more about the portal. However, forces are at work behind the portal.
Sauron's master Morgoth was recently dethroned, and now he stands alone at the head of the armies of the great evil. Suddenly, a portal opens up in front of him. For a second he contemplates going through, and tests it by tossing an orc through. After a monute or two, the orc returns through the same portal (With a bump on his head, he must have hit a rock upon his entry), and explains what he found. Sauron is interested in the new world, and leaving his armies behind so his absence in Middle Earth should not he walks through the portal.
Link gets the sudden feeling something is wrong, and went back to the portal. He saw fair being march through the gateway. He began to prepare for trouble, but he saw that the man had no intention to fight. Seems he was interested in Hyrule, and asked to be taken to the city to speak to whoever ruled it. Though Link had a sort of distrust for the being, he took him to Zelda. To Zelda, Sauron introduced himself, flattering her with complements. He took his ring off and offered it to her as a gift, which through his persistence. she reluctantly accepted. Sauron rose in the court of Hyrule, showing wisdom, and seemingly a eery hold over Zelda. Link was not one to be oblivious to this, and went before Zelda and took the ring from her. Upon taking it, he felt attracted to it, but his Master Sword repelled this. Immediately, he gave it to Sauron and told him to leave Hyrule. Sauron, rather frustrated with Links apparent resistance, agreed, mocking him for ill manners.
Sauron went through the portal, but Link had a feeling that it wasn't over. He was right, for a week later, Sauron returned with an army of monsters thaty Link never saw before. He besieged Hyrule immediately, and Link took to the battle field to confront the great evil. Sauron beckons his worthy adversary to come forth and to brave his armies. Thus the battle begins.

Wanted to give it a flare. Sorry if it is a bit long. The 2nd one should resovle the ruppee in grass issue, as well as the jars.

[Bago!!!]

Just because you rose through the ranks faster than me doesn't mean that I am your minion! Just means I grew sick of a topic and sulked for a bit!
I never wrote an application! You nitwit! That would mean I was organized!

Skeleton, Psshhhhaw! Skeletons don't have to be older! I AM OLDER!


1. I think Link wins, since at this point and time Sauron is an eye?
2. This is tougher... Link may win because of home field advantage.... But Sauron also has the advantage of minions!

[Steven the Lich]

I never wrote an application! You nitwit! That would mean I was organized! Oh yeah... So then you never were my minion. However, I never made an application... I never make those.


2. This is tougher... Link may win because of home field advantage.... But Sauron also has the advantage of minions Didn't he have that at the begining?

[Bago!!!]

Thats beside the point!

[EvilElitest]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Gone for a few weeks and i miss the perfect thread

Anyways, i'm torn, and i've been praying for ages this wouldn't come up



here is the thing, i've been thinking about this thread ever since the first Sauron vs. thread, so you know what, i'm going to go under the ultimate link, IE link with everything from every game. TP link is screwed sadly

One on one, LInk wins. It will be a hell of a fight, and i mean an absurd fight (and we aren't counting the destoring the ring for one on one right?) Sauron might be a better fighter, but link can become invincible for six days, use light arrows, master sword, turn into a demi god, become a giant, use super magic. So while Sauron is good, he just can't hurt him for a while. Oh wait, Sauron can oppress magic.........................i totally forgot about that. Hmmmm, well in that case, LInk still has unlimited magic, but it doesn't do him very much. I mean, if he can't use spell, oh wait. He could use his magic armor, which is essentially the same as Naru's love to have the same effect. But wait, could Sauron force time to work again? Does he have that sort of power? I don't think so? however, can he dispel magical items. yes he can, oh dear. But wait, the Master Sword can resist/dispel evil influence and do massive damage to evil. So maybe Sauron's effects are dimmed. And Link can become a demi god. But Sauron has such a powerful will, maybe he can simply over come its effects. But that isn't for sure. Oh wait a second, what about Sauron shape shifting? And he only needs to touch Link once, on wait immunity to heat. Ok, then, but shape shifting. But possible immunity to damage.....But wait. Sauron is smart, even if he can't hurt him in those six days, he can corrupt him instead and use fear/despair.
But will the master sword protect him, or the tri force
But sauron is a god, maybe he can over come that



Well this one on one is way to vague.


In terms of army vs army, well then i have to say Sauron wins. It will be epic, i mean truly epic, LInk driving through the forces of mordor, but he will in the end fall. He can't sneak in the same way because quite frankly, Sauron isn't a utterly moronic as the Moblins. The hobbits got through because who expect hobbits and they had gollum



GoC has brought to my attention an error in my information, for which I am thankful that he did. Sauron was, in fact, responsible for the deaths of FOUR of the SIX heroes of the Last Alliance. I'll go through them one by one so that we know for sure, I've got the Silmarillion and the Lord of the Rings appendices with me, just in case.

Elendil - Killed by Sauron
Gil-Galad - Killed By Sauron
Isildur - Corrupted by Sauron and then killed by his servants
Anarion - Killed by Sauron's servants
Elrond - Survived
Cirdan - Survived
um you missed one. Anarion wasn't at the duel, It was Glorfindal instead, who also lived.
Isilidur was wounded, he was burned.

damnit


Just general nit picks


1) Link would be immune to black breath, if not fear/despair because of teh Triforce/master sword which protect him for certain evil effects. That being said, fear are fair game, and he will lose his sword. The master sword could hurt the WK, but it would rot.
2) Link could take on an army if he has all of his crap, but he will eventually simply run out of resources. Sauron isn't stupid, he can just hold him off with fodder until link runs out of tricks. LInk is impossible to hurt, and time is going to be going twice as long (IE, days are going to be bothering the orcs for twice as long. Oh wait, Sauron can block out the sun)
3) LInk sadly, couldn't throw the ring in. Not even him. ........But he could throw Navi in who would have taken the ring
4) Could Link destory the balrog? yeah, but using his cheats, Ie his direct magic . It would hinder him, and every single fight link does weakens him a little more. He wouldn't win for hte reasons mentioned here, WK is right. He would win simply because he could make him self immune to harm
5) Shelob would be easier, the sword could do fine. But link has no immunity to poison. Oh wait, orc arrows
from
EE

[Steven the Lich]

Where were you? All this time, I was expecting you to pop up, because this kind of thread appears to be in your ball court naturally.

Would he have the heart to throw Navi in?
Wait... Couldn't he pretend to give it to Gollum then push Gollum in? That seems to be more acceptable.

[WalkingTarget]

Would he have the heart to throw Navi in?

I think he was alluding to one of my posts (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3743934&postcount=24) in a previous thread involving these two.

[Setra]

He would win simply because he could make him self immune to harm
Not forever, he'll run out of money eventually.

This is only Twilight Princess Link, not the one who "defeated" Sephiroth.

There is no way I could see Link winning against an army of 10,000+ when all 10,000 are attacking him at the same time.

Just remember, a single Orc was considered a miniboss. A SINGLE Orc.

Now add a lot more.

[Steven the Lich]

Not forever, he'll run out of money eventually.

This is only Twilight Princess Link, not the one who "defeated" Sephiroth.

There is no way I could see Link winning against an army of 10,000+ when all 10,000 are attacking him at the same time.

Just remember, a single Orc was considered a miniboss. A SINGLE Orc.

Now add a lot more. I agree.
Who was that single orc?


I think he was alluding to one of my posts in a previous thread involving these two. Navi isn't that annoying in the game, is she?

[EvilElitest]

Where were you? All this time, I was expecting you to pop up, because this kind of thread appears to be in your ball court naturally.

I was on vacation for two weeks, no luck



Would he have the heart to throw Navi in?
Wait... Couldn't he pretend to give it to Gollum then push Gollum in? That seems to be more acceptable.
1) i don't think he would know to trick gollum. For that matter, would he even know to destroy the ring?
2) destroying Navi however, is doing the world a favor



Setra- as i said, Twilight Princess link is screwed in both fights. I was using ultimate link

also, there aren't any orcs in Twilight princess. Jousting a Boblin on a giant boar is a mini boss, but link (at least me) pulled it off without dying once

And steven, yes, she is that annoying in game

Hey, listen
Hey listen
Hey, listen
Hey, listen
Hey, listenHey, listen
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Hey, listen
Hey, listen
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from
EE
Ps. Hey Listen

[Setra]

Setra- as i said, Twilight Princess link is screwed in both fights. I was using ultimate linkAh well Ultimate Link is fine then

[Beholder1995]

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm216/Beholder1995/LinkvsSauron-1.gif

Just a little something I drew for comparison.

Frankly, I think everyone's shamelessly underestimating Sauron's sheer physical badassery. In a one-on-one fight, Sauron would easily cream link.

If it were operating on Middle-Earth physics, one blow from Sauron's mace could easily kill Link, or at least brake several bones.

If it were operating on Hyrule physics, Sauron's mace could easily take out a dozen hearts, if not more, at a time.

Assuming Sauron's ring finger doesn't get hit, Sauron would have the fight in the bag.

[GoC]

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm216/Beholder1995/LinkvsSauron-1.gif

Just a little something I drew for comparison.

Frankly, I think everyone's shamelessly underestimating Sauron's sheer physical badassery. In a one-on-one fight, Sauron would easily cream link.

If it were operating on Middle-Earth physics, one blow from Sauron's mace could easily kill Link, or at least brake several bones.

If it were operating on Hyrule physics, Sauron's mace could easily take out a dozen hearts, if not more, at a time.

Assuming Sauron's ring finger doesn't get hit, Sauron would have the fight in the bag.
The book Sauron doesn't wield a huge mace and was killed and then had his fingert cut off, not the other way around. It's truely amazing how mis-informed people are on this topic.

[Sholos]

And in the book it took eight of the world's greatest fighters to do so, and two (or was it three?) of them fell.

Or however many it was. Point is, Sauron was a lot scarier in the book.

[WalkingTarget]

One way to read it is that Gil-galad and Elendil were the only ones able to bring themselves to face Sauron but that several others were nearby (Isildur and Elrond for sure, probably Cirdan, maybe Glorfindel).

Another way to read it is that any combination of these fought, but Gil-galad and Elendil were the only ones who died (but it was also primarily them that took Sauron out).

My personal interpretation is the former, but it's difficult to say for certain.

Tolkien wrote that "...in a tale which allows the incarnation of great spirits in a physical and destructible form their power must be far greater when actually physically present. Sauron should be thought of as very terrible." So whatever (considerable) dread and doom Sauron was able to project during the course of the narrative in The Lord of the Rings is nothing compared to the force of presence he projects when there in person.

Link being from a setting where the pure essence of Courage is tied to him might be able to stand up to that, though.

My LoZ-fu is failing me today. Sauron's able to kill mighty heroes (Gil-galad for example) with the "heat of his body" or somesuch. I know that several Zelda games give Link armor that makes him resistant to fire damage, but does he ever get complete protection?

[EvilElitest]

1) If Sauron is at full power (IE before the breaking of the world) then he is even tougher than the second age version of himself
2) Sauron burned Gil ad up with his body and injured Isildur (through he was dead when the heat did that, the point still remains)
3) That being said, he is a massive badass when it comes to fighting and can shape shift
4) We don't know if he used a mace or not, it is just as possible as any other weapon. I would imagine he'd use a mace out of reverence for his master but we don't know
5) Link is immune to heat with teh goron tunic, not fire. That being said, he also has spells and magical equiptment that can protect him from all damage, but i don't know if that will work against Sauron
from
EE