Non-magic Spells?

[Deathtouched]

How is it possible to create rules for limiting the uses of spell effects that are accomplished non-magically? Example: Creating sleep dust with the same effect as the spell. But since it isn't magic, there can't be rules or uses per day, because realistically a person could keep making it. Or can you limit it like that? The only other thing I can think of is limiting the creation effects by giving them a cost in materials, but that would mean rich characters would be able to have nearly limitless amounts, while poorer folk wouldn't get any. This for a non-magic campaign that I'm trying to create, and I'm having trouble making the transition between spellcasters and spell-effect-maker-people. Oh, and I don't mean like the crafting feats, I mean for everyday use.

Thank you.

[insecure]

You should take a look on this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62304) class, even though it's not finished.

[Jack_Simth]

The powders take some time to make, possibly require a bit of the maker (Hair, blood, fingernail clippings, whatever - just something that grows in limited quantity), and spoil 24 hours after brewing. Poof - instant "nonspell slots".

[Deathtouched]

@insecure I've read the Tinker before and it is cool. The only problem is that there isn't a spell list yet, so I don't know what others would find appropriate for non-magic spell effects. Other than that it's perfect.
@J_S That powder deterioration idea sounds good, but it's a little too perfect. That requires that everything that's made in a similar fashion to brewing will have to become useless fast, and that would be a overly inconvenient. The other thing is that normal D&D mages don't have to rest for ne spells every 24 hours, their spells last as long as they don't use them, right? Still okay though. Plus, everything can't be powders, so I still need to find a more universal rule for other things, like artifacts and constructs. I'm making those as spells too, so I can't use the normal feats, at least not the way they're normally used.

[Hecore]

Why not make it that when you create a powder you bind a bit of your spirit to the concoction. As long as the powder hasn't been consumed it limits the number of other powders you can make (you can only split up your spirit so many ways). As soon as the powder is consumed you can then create a new powder as the activating agent has been freed up for use again. You can also freely take back that bit of yourself you imbued the powder with to free up the ability to create different powders as well (this would, of course, render the powder entirely useless).

Although it's mystical (though not magical) it does provide a rather simple re-fluff of any class that uses spell slots.

[Deathtouched]

That's a pretty good idea for the replacement of spell-slots. But the only problem is that I'm not just trying to replace the spells, I'm trying to replace all the magic. And while the soul-binding is "mystical" as you said, its not technological so I can't think of how it would fit into the world. It's complicated because I want to limit the way people "cast spells" but I also want the products to be part of the economy, minorly. Like some of the powders could be sold or bought or traded instead of used by the creator. Except then it's not really their own spell, its a magic device. I need alchemy and metal-work mixed somehow. :smallconfused:

[Owrtho]

You could use the excuse "Its an unexplained phenomenon" and if the player attempts to question it, they loose all but one hitpoint ant the party looses half as a result of a failed attempt. And then warn them not to try it again.

On a more serious note, as you mentioned you want it to be technological, perhapse it could be that it is not the player who makes (physicaly) the powders at all. Perhapse the powders are kept in reusable, rare, and valuable shells (as in amo shells) and while the player actualy is the one to design the formula to make the powders (or whatever), the acual mixing is done by an automated device they must cary with them that X amount of supervised time to make it (thus they can only do it during resting periods). As such when they use a "spell", they then place the shell it was in back in the device to refill it.

Owrtho

[Deathtouched]

While the idea off near-killing any character who questions the rules is appealing, I'm not sure if I'd want to base an entire campaign concept off of it. :smallamused: The automaton being the thing that actually makes the spells is an interesting idea, but what if something comes up where character's gain access to new shells. And how would you limit shells by level like spells?
In any case the main problem is still that only a few spells are actually going o be "powders", while others will use completely different sciences, which would mean that the spells all need different sources for the same character... which might actually be the perfect way of limiting spell use... hmmm :smallconfused:.

Anyways, I think I should probably explain the whole premise in more detail since I kinda... never really did... something... Uh, so, the game is supposed to be taking place in a semi-technologically-advanced world. Most of the technology is steampunk type stuff, but there's a bit of other techs mixed in too. The main "casters" that I'm thinking of for classes are a chemist and a mechanician. The chemist uses natural medicines, chemical explosives, and biological warfare. Kind of a bit like a druid or shaman I suppose, only there's no nature talking or animals involved. Although I am thinking of a familiar ability that creatures an "animal" homunculus using science, high level though. The mechanician is the guy who makes small bombs, robots, mechanical grafts, and maybe jetpacks or something. Could be a steampowered glider instead, or something.
The other classes might be fighters with steam weapons, rogues specializing in disarming traps and devices, and such. And also a class called physician, who will specialize in biology and medicine, human mostly of course.

Here are two examples of how science replaces magic: 1) One creature is called a Wooden Reaper, or something. They guard the forests against harm and intrusion. Rumors say that they were birthed from the world's anger when an entire forest was clear-cut for resources, and that they began killing all the industrial men that opposed them. The truth is that a secret organization of "druids" are the true creators of reapers. Mostly chemists who oppose industrial growth, a few are actually mechanicians who technology can be used to protect nature. They created metal constructs, powered by steamed and cloaked with wood and vines to help their cause. And thus the Reapers were born.
Liches also exist in a minor form in the world. The are actually scientists who have used selective grafts to give themselves near immortality. The main power source, "phylactery", is actually a steam/electric powered battery that upkeeps the "lich's" body. When the "lich" dies, the battery keep their body running and the grafts are programmed to stop bleeding and infection and such. As long as the body remains mostly intact, ie: heads required, the"lich" will be able to return to movement after a extended period of internal hibernation lasting a few days to a week or so.

Also, I hope it doesn't seem like i'm trying to shoot down everyone's ideas. I really appreciate what people have come up with so far. I just want to find the right parts to build off of so that this campaign won't fail after a few sessions, again :smallsigh:. And in my honest opinion it would seem that deterioration to limited binding and consuming to limited shells produced a certain number of times per day is in fact, an uphill movement. Or something. I really have to stop typing this stuff past midnight... that's all. :smallsmile:

[Owrtho]

The automaton being the thing that actually makes the spells is an interesting idea, but what if something comes up where character's gain access to new shells. And how would you limit shells by level like spells?
In any case the main problem is still that only a few spells are actually going o be "powders", while others will use completely different sciences, which would mean that the spells all need different sources for the same character... which might actually be the perfect way of limiting spell use... hmmm :smallconfused:.

Well, though I said powders, it could actualy be just about anything that can fit in a small container, and unless your planing on having characters carry around huge objects to cast spells it seems to work. The main thing I was thinking of was sorta like a gunmage class where they uses shells to store the chemicals, powders, etc. prior to use. When fired, the empty shell is kept for reuse. As for how they get new ones, the most obvious (and cheep) way is that they conveniently stumble accross them whenever they level up. Another possibility is that the proccess to make them is eratic and as such the time it takes can vary wildly. Thus while they are always in the proccess of making them, they only manage to finnish when they level up ( gain another cop-out type method). The issue is somewhat simmilar to "how do wizards manage to learn new spells on level up when there clearly are no tomes around for them to find them in?" It is realy nigh impossible to come up with any actual solution to "why can't they do more earlier when they can do it now with no notable change". And in a realistic setting there isn't realy any reason I could think of that someone couldn't just go and find more of them and jump ahead. However, as random inspiration, perhapse the shells are not only rare but require a precise makeup and shape. Whenever one decides to follow the path that uses them they are granted one to study and must make the rest themselves. As such they start out making imperfect copies that can't contain the more powerfull compounds (thust the reason for different levels of spells). At certain levels they gain insight to the design and can make better ones. However, aside from the original, all the ones they make eventualy where out (slightly slower than they can make them) thus only at level ups have they caught up enough that they have more than before.

Owrtho

[Deathtouched]

I like your last idea for limitations better than the first ones. The imperfect copies would make sense both mechanically and realistically. And truthfully, in the few games I have DMed I have never allowed wizards to gain spells on new levels. They actually have to search dangerous and secret places for spells or find other mages who will teach them magic, some of whom aren't nice. They actually have to work to acquire the power to shape matter with their thoughts. :smallsmile: There are a few things in this game that won't really be something that can fit in a capsule, but this would seem to be the best option for most of the chemists spells at the very least. One question though: you say that the shells are fired, but that they are kept for reuse? If the shells have explosives in them, wouldn't they explode? I'm probably misunderstanding you cause everything else makes perfect sense.

[ericgrau]

Why not just use expendible items? So sleep powder would cost 25gp and 12.5gp to make (spell level x caster level x 25gp). If there's a pre-packaged, user-friendly version that other classes could use, then it'd cost twice that amount. Though this tends to favor low level spells.

Maybe the ingredients are hard to find and you, as the DM, only give out so many. But then that encourages conserving spells and going nova when things get tough.

The other way I can think of would be to mimic the old spells as closely as possible without calling it magic.

[Deathtouched]

I understand what you are saying, and that would work for making "spell" items others could use. The caster level thing seems weird though, because that means it costs more the better you get. Of course the things are better but... we forget what we are saying. But one thing I never like about crafting things in D&D was the gold costs because that makes no realistic sense. You're really paying gold FOR materials that you USE to make the item. So, who's to say a character couldn't go out and find materials they needed all on their own? And the costs mean that poorer crafters can't afford to make their "spells" which is their entire profession, nay, their integral life-style. And I again forget...

Good idea...

Gah, you added more! Okay... So rare materials would stop most from looking for them, but they could still be found. Maybe you need fresh blood of a dragon to make sleep powder. That's not "impossible" to get... if you pretend.
And I suppose that it would be possible to just mimic spells and not call it "magic", but their would have to be some new one's since the world's so different, and certain ones (ex: any and all ress spells, other than the lich battery spell, just because its not worth the 2nd chance if you don't give up humanity in the process) would not be allowed since they wouldn't fit.

-Remember: any science that is sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic- But we're talking steampunk. Or something.

[Owrtho]

One question though: you say that the shells are fired, but that they are kept for reuse? If the shells have explosives in them, wouldn't they explode? I'm probably misunderstanding you cause everything else makes perfect sense.

It's like slug amo. The shells hold the bullet, but when the gun fires, the shell is kept in the gun while the bullet is propelled through the barrel. Then when you go to relode the gun, you take out the empty shells. They are however an esencial part. Thet store the components propperly and alow the correct reaction to take place. In the case of the shells for the campaign, they would be more involved, rather than just keeping components (such as bullets and gunpowder) in the propper order, they would have to be able to withstand and preserve the compounds in them for whatever reaction would take place when they're fired. as such they'd likely have multiple compartments, and need particular materials to make them resistant to the possibly caustic solutions they hold. However, like a normal shell, they would remain in the gun while it is the compounds they hold that are fired out. But, as they are not easily replacable, the guns would have something like a specialy designed catch for the used shells rather than just dumping them on the ground.

Owrtho

[Deathtouched]

Ah, now I understand. I didn't realize you meant for the shells to actually be like bullet casings. I knew you said "gun-mage" before, I just assumed that the shells were really modified bullets. This makes more sense. Sorry.