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RagnaroksChosen
2008-08-13, 07:32 AM
So I was thinking how would a game would work if the only class's allowed where from TOB and TOM(I know TOM is universally despised on the boards). If this would work group dynamics wise. and how badly they would get crushed..
I'm talking about a 4 man group.. maybe 5 and at least one class from TOM.
Also I play e6 alot.. so how do you think it would play out in that system?

Also what would be some good/interesting groups derived from those books.


Thanks all!!

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-13, 07:38 AM
Dump ToM and use XPH?

ToM has 1 ok class, the Binder. The other two aren't even worth taking the time to list their problems (the Truenamer gives the Samurai and Healer a run for their money in the weakest class category).

You could, depending on the DM, just play with ToB and come up with a credible party.

kamikasei
2008-08-13, 07:40 AM
ToM isn't universally despised, lots of people like pact magic. There are a variety of fixes kicking about for shadowcasters (some based on ToB mechanics, in fact). Don't know if anyone's made a decent fix for the Truenamer, though.

Sounds like it could be an interesting game but there are definitely areas where it'd be lacking - healing is the big one though I think some vestiges grant limited ability there. Nor am I sure if anything could handle a trap/skillmonkey role very well, unless again there's a vestige for it.

AstralFire
2008-08-13, 07:42 AM
I really like Shadowcasters, personally. I've never gone in huge for Binders, nice feel, but not quite what I was expecting out of pact magic. (Though pretty close.)

And I think that a game constructed around the feel of each of these systems would be quite Nifty.

Swordsage/Binder/Shadowcaster/Crusader would be pretty cool from a flavor point of view (and relatively doable mechanically, as well.) They'd be a bunch of spirit warriors or something, people who walk the line between the Spirit World and this one to stop those who would cross over...

RagnaroksChosen
2008-08-13, 07:55 AM
ToM isn't universally despised, lots of people like pact magic. There are a variety of fixes kicking about for shadowcasters (some based on ToB mechanics, in fact). Don't know if anyone's made a decent fix for the Truenamer, though.

Sounds like it could be an interesting game but there are definitely areas where it'd be lacking - healing is the big one though I think some vestiges grant limited ability there. Nor am I sure if anything could handle a trap/skillmonkey role very well, unless again there's a vestige for it.

do you or any one know where those fix's are?

and tippy i can understand about truenamers and the XPH is a ton better but i was looking for similar mechanics... this is more of a thought exersies... although i am not more interested in reading up on TOM...

The Demented One
2008-08-13, 07:59 AM
The Truenamer can be patched up with a little love - getting rid of the x2 modifier in the DC formula seems to be the most common way, and I'd recommend that. The Shadowcaster, on the other hand, requires a major overhaul to be playable, although the idea of doing his mysteries like maneuvers, mentioned earlier, sounds like a good one to me.

kamikasei
2008-08-13, 08:03 AM
I believe it's Fax Celestis on these boards whose fix I'm thinking of. Try searching for posts by him on the topic. I'd do it myself, but the boards are being slow for me so it probably wouldn't help much.

edit: Okay, a quick search turns up this description of a fix from Fax:


My solution is a recovery mechanic a la ToB. A standard action of concentration recovers all uses of mysteries from one path, or a full round action recovers all mysteries of one tier (apprentice, initiate, or master).

Dhavaer also suggests just recovering all mysteries at the end of an encounter.

And then, the class's designer has recommended some changes, first here (http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=2957649&postcount=76), and then more recently here (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=184955). From the first link:

Okay, I've been giving this a lot of thought, taking into account what people here have been saying, as well as comments from other folks, and a few other RPG writers. The following alterations are what I'm currently considering. This is not official errata. This is not even unofficial errata. I may well change my mind on one or all of these, before I give my "final" stamp of approval on any tweaks to the class. (And of course, even once I do, it'll have no official weight.)

Now, this doesn't go as far as some of you have requested, but it's where I'd like to start. If some of you would like to volunteer to run a few playtest adventures with these changes in place, I'd very much love to know how it goes.

1) Grant bonus mysteries per day based on Int. These would work just like bonus spells. For instance, if your Int is 14, you can cast one extra mystery of 1st-level equivalent and one of 2nd-level equivalent per day. (Note that each mystery does give an equivalent level, even though you don't learn them by level.)

2) Eliminate the rule that says you have to take mysteries in a given Path in order. If you want to jump around, so as to broaden your versatility, you can. You must still have at least one mystery of any given level equivalent (1st, 2nd, etc.) before you can get a mystery of the next higher level within a type (Apprentice, Initiate, Master), but they need not come from the same Path.

3) Eliminate the rule that says you get a bonus feat equal to half the number of paths you have access to. Instead, you get a bonus feat equal to the total number of Paths you complete. Thus, while you are no longer required to take the entirety of a given Path, there's still encouragement to do so.

4) Allow the shadowcaster to swap out mysteries, like a sorcerer does spells, with the caveat that if you suddenly "un-complete" a Path, you lose a feat as well.

5) Once your Apprentice Mysteries become supernatural abilities, change the save DC from 10 + equivalent spell level + Cha to 10 + 1/2 caster level + Cha. This makes them useful even against high-HD opponents, and follows the pattern for other supernatural abilities.

(And BTW, the warp spell mystery shouldn't say that it allows a Will save. The caster level check determines success or failure.)

Now, be aware that I have not playtested the changes myself. I'm not running a game at present--my last campaign wrapped up a few weeks ago--nor am I currently playing a shadowcaster. I also haven't been able to devote too much time to considering them, as I've just wrapped up a huge gig for WotC, and am about to dive into a short one for Vampire, before (tentatively) starting another for WotC. So I'll be the first to admit, there might be repurcussions to these ideas that I haven't yet seen. I'm quite eager to hear any thoughts you folks have, and any results that might come up in play. As I've said before, the shadowcaster was my first attempt to design anything so fundamentally different from the standard classes, and I won't pretend it's perfect.

So let's make it perfect