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Demons_eye
2008-08-13, 05:50 PM
When I first played DnD I made a jungle elf TWFing fighter. Now we did never finsh that game , and sense there is a new game starting up (around here anyway) I wanted to use my first guy again. Only thing is that the TWF tree takes a lot of feats so I wanted to know of other things (feat/gear/PcR's) that can help me be the best I can at killing.

Stats are str:19 Dex:20 con:14 Int:14 Wis:10 Cha:8
Level:6 start off, WBL, and any book goes.

monty
2008-08-13, 05:53 PM
While I know it's technically correct, "Two Weapon Fighting Fighter" sounds really funny to me.

Play a ranger, maybe? You won't get as much out of it with that wisdom, though. If you can switch your stats around, it might be pretty good.

Edge of Dreams
2008-08-13, 06:01 PM
Play a ranger, maybe? You won't get as much out of it with that wisdom, though. If you can switch your stats around, it might be pretty good.

The problem with that suggestion is that a level 6 ranger gets, what, 2 free TWF feats? Whereas level 6 fighter gets 4 free feats, two of which can be spent on TWF, leaving you 2 feats and a better hit-die ahead.

Spiryt
2008-08-13, 06:03 PM
Well, actually those stats are damn good. I suppose that using fighter feats to get few crucial TWF could make him somewhat decent. (Oversized TWF + Leap Attack + TW pounce for nice x 4 power attack damage)

But after few levels it would be probably indeed better to go with Ranger or Barbarian. Sad fate of the Fighter.


leaving you 2 feats and a better hit-die ahead.

And absolutely NOTHING besides that. Ranger have better skills, spells, interesting abilities, better saves and so on. Sad fate... you know.

AstralFire
2008-08-13, 06:11 PM
I wouldn't bother picking up oversized TWF. The One-Handed Exotics don't really give enough benefit unless you're planning on getting Exotic Weapon Master (for stuff like Exotic Flurry) and the One-Handed Martials/Simples just aren't ever worth it.

I do suggest picking up both Dervish and Tempest though.


And absolutely NOTHING besides that. Ranger have better skills, spells, interesting abilities, better saves and so on. Sad fate... you know.

Ranger's a much more solid 1-20 class, especially for TWF, but for a few levels, it's hard to beat a Fighter dip.

monty
2008-08-13, 06:13 PM
I was thinking more along the lines of going straight ranger, which would also fit the flavor pretty well.

Spiryt
2008-08-13, 06:14 PM
I wouldn't bother picking up oversized TWF. The One-Handed Exotics don't really give enough benefit unless you're planning on getting Exotic Weapon Master (for stuff like Exotic Flurry) and the One-Handed Martials/Simples just aren't ever worth it.

I do suggest picking up both Dervish and Tempest though.

Without it power attack on both hands won't be possible without -4/-4 penalty.

And Tempest is weak I heard.



Ranger's a much more solid 1-20 class, especially for TWF, but for a few levels, it's hard to beat a Fighter dip.

Not only dip, but about 8 levels of Fighter can be pretty nice with right feats. (When you'r not aiming at something very poweful at least) But still Ranger levels give more all around stuff.

AstralFire
2008-08-13, 06:17 PM
Without it power attack on both hands won't be possible without -4/-4 penalty.

And Tempest is weak I heard.

You don't really want to Power Attack with TWF. Not unless you've got a really specific build in mind. -1 Attack for +1 damage when you're relying that heavily on all of your iteratives hitting? And if you really -do-, dervish could let you pull it off without ever having to use Oversized TWF and nabbing you an attack bonus along the way.

Tempest is not the best PrC ever, but you fulfill most of the requirements on the way to Dervish, and Dervish itself nabs you another of them.


Not only dip, but about 8 levels of Fighter can be pretty nice with right feats. (When you'r not aiming at something very poweful at least) But still Ranger levels give more all around stuff.

A Ranger's animal companion is nearly useless, spellcasting doesn't kick in for a while (and you don't get too much nice stuff until you get 2nd level spells and up)... If you're planning to PrC, Fighter's generally a better base.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-13, 06:20 PM
Instead of Oversized TWF, there's a +1 enhancement that makes a Bastard sword wieldable like a shortsword. When Bunko's is back up(along with the rest of the forum), I'll have name/book.

Spiryt
2008-08-13, 06:22 PM
You don't really want to Power Attack with TWF. Not unless you've got a really specific build in mind. -1 Attack for +1 damage when you're relying that heavily on all of your iteratives hitting?


It's not like he'll have sneak atack for damage. And with mentioned x 4 damage from Leap Attack (of course if you don't do x 4 with THW as well) makes nice difference.

The best thing to do would be taking this crazy variant of Barbarian that gives you pounce.

AstralFire
2008-08-13, 06:24 PM
Instead of Oversized TWF, there's a +1 enhancement that makes a Bastard sword wieldable like a shortsword. When Bunko's is back up(along with the rest of the forum), I'll have name/book.

You spend a +1 on Attack/Damage for an average of +2 Damage. That's kind of a wash, since again the attack penalties do hurt TWFing. I would really try to avoid PA-TWF with bastard swords, as cool as the idea is.


It's not like he'll have sneak atack for damage. And with mentioned x 4 damage from Leap Attack (of course if you don't do x 4 with THW as well) makes nice difference.

The best thing to do would be taking this crazy variant of Barbarian that gives you pounce.

So use Scimitars and Dervish away. +5 Attack/Damage, Prereqs are all solid feats, class is enterable at 6 with Swash 2/Fighter 4, Rogue 2/Fighter 4 or Ranger 2/Fighter 4. (I recommend Ranger 2/Fighter 4.)

Of course, I'm not taking into account the stupid-broken Barbarian variant from C. Champion.

Spiryt
2008-08-13, 06:29 PM
You spend a +1 on Attack/Damage for an average of +2 Damage. That's kind of a wash, since again the attack penalties do hurt TWFing. I would really try to avoid PA-TWF with bastard swords, as cool as the idea is.

Who is talking about bastard swords? While Oversized TWF without good idea can be a waste, Exotic Weapon Prof (Bastard sword) will be certainly in this case.

And it's not so cool. Kinda weird rather.


So use Scimitars and Dervish away. +5 Attack/Damage, Prereqs are all solid feats, class is enterable at 6 with Swash 2/Fighter 4, Rogue 2/Fighter 4 or Ranger 2/Fighter 4.

Dervish can use two Scimitars at -2/-2 without Oversized TWF, yes?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-13, 06:30 PM
Actually, it's not +1. It's 2,000 GP. Sun Sword, Expidition to Castle Ravencroft. 2,000 GP for 2 additional damage isn't bad, and much better than spending a feat for the same effect. Plus, it's cool.

AstralFire
2008-08-13, 06:31 PM
Who is talking about bastard swords?

This guy:

Instead of Oversized TWF, there's a +1 enhancement that makes a Bastard sword wieldable like a shortsword. When Bunko's is back up(along with the rest of the forum), I'll have name/book.


While Oversized TWF without good idea can be a waste, Exotic Weapon Prof (Bastard sword) will be certainly in this case.

Pretty sure that enhancement includes proficiency, anyway, if it works like the Sun sword.


Actually, it's not +1. It's 2,000 GP. Sun Sword, Expidition to Castle Ravencroft. 2,000 GP for 2 additional damage isn't bad, and much better than spending a feat for the same effect. Plus, it's cool.

That's very doable, actually.

Spiryt
2008-08-13, 06:36 PM
If Devish can have two Scimitars with -2/-2, that leaves only one problem - you'll look kinda like Drizzt. And this sucks.

Telonius
2008-08-13, 06:37 PM
Instead of Oversized TWF, there's a +1 enhancement that makes a Bastard sword wieldable like a shortsword. When Bunko's is back up(along with the rest of the forum), I'll have name/book.

Or get a Sun Blade (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#sunBlade). Expensive, but it does the job.

AstralFire
2008-08-13, 06:41 PM
If Devish can have two Scimitars with -2/-2, that leaves only one problem - you'll look kinda like Drizzt. And this sucks.

Yeah, they can. Though it appears my memory is faulty; I recalled the feature to say "for the purpose of fighting with two weapons", not "for all purposes", which RAW means that a Dervish can no longer Power Attack with a scimitar at all. While this doesn't make sense, it is the rule.

In any case, as long as you're TWFing slashing weapons (or even if only one of your weapons is slashing - the bonus is to all your attack and damage rolls), you absolutely must take the Dervish.

tonberrian
2008-08-13, 06:52 PM
If you're wielding scimitars and you're an elf, Champion of Corellon Larethian (RotW p 113) is also good. You can't get in until level 8, but the second level gives you dex to damage with elvishy weapons, notably scimitars. It shares a couple of prereq's with Dervish, and Dervish qualifies scimitars for Weapon Finesse and, more importantly, a Swashbuckler's Insightful Strike.

Aneantir
2008-08-13, 08:32 PM
If your willing to jump through a few hoops, and the Tome of Battle is allowed, you may want to try something like this:

Fighter 4/Warblade 2, then Bloodclaw Master 2 or more.

This assumes you're either Human, Dwarf, or another race with your favored class being Fighter. You've gotta be rolling with two weapons from the Tiger Claw school for this to be really effective (Kukri, Kama, Claw, Handaxe, Unarmed Strike).

What this gets you is some level 1-3 Tiger Claw maneuvers, a random level 1 stance, Shifting (You gain +2 strength and claws a number of times per day), Claws of the Beast (Full Strength bonus to offhand attacks), Superior Two-Weapon fighting (no penalties for TWF), and Tiger Claw Synergy (Stances), so as long as you're in a tiger claw stance you get +1 to your AC, or +10ft of movement speed.

If you're going to run something like this, you may want to look into this feat progression if you've got the Players Handbook 2:

Level 1: Two Weapon Fighting
Fighter1: Weapon Focus (Kukri because it's fancy looking and has a high critical range)
Fighter 2: ???
3: ???
Fighter 4: Weapon Specialization (Kukri)
6: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
9: Melee Weapon Mastery (Slashing)

Between that and the rest of the build, you'll have a BAB of 8 at level 9, full strength to both weapons, and an extra +3 Attack/+4 damage with them as well. It's fairly decent, and those 2 feats I couldn't think of as I just dashed this off, but it's solid overall and should hold up well.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-13, 08:37 PM
In that case, snag Improved Crit(Kukri) and the Blood in the Water stance, for maximum crititude.

Eldariel
2008-08-13, 09:11 PM
Whatever you do, go Strength-focus. That means 18 (20) in Str and 17 (19) in Dex. You have high enough stats to pull it off all the way, and it's gonna save you 2 feats plus a limited weapon selection over your career. Now, you're an Elf, so you aren't feat-laden. That's an added reason to go this route.

One important question, do you use Favored Class-rules? If you do, you'll be very limited, but if not, you've got a few more options. Here's a list of the better options:

Ranger/Scout (CAdv)/Dervish (CWar)/end: Use the Swift Hunter-feat (CScoundrel) to stack your Ranger and Scout-levels for Skirmish. Then pick Improved Skirmish. This structure gets you two Favored Enemies (to which you can do Precision-damage), +2d6 Damage/+1 AC Skirmish and thus qualifies you for Improved Skirmish (CScound: If you move 20', you get additional +2d6 Damage/+2 AC Skirmish) for a total of +4d6/+3 Skirmish before going into Dervish (that allows you to move and full attack). As a penalty though, this pretty much ties up all your feats:
1st. Weapon Focus - prerequisites
Ranger. Two-Weapon Fighting
3rd. Combat Expertise - prerequisite
6th, Scout. Expeditious Dodge (Races of the Wild: Qualifies as Dodge, gives you +2 AC all turns when you've moved 40' or more - should be all turns for you) - prerequisite, Swift Hunter

Now you should take two levels of something that gives bonus feats, like Martial Rogue (Unearthed Arcana) or Fighter. Use those two bonus feats on Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and Mobility. Then enter Dervish and take Improved Skirmish on 9. Greater Two-Weapon Fighting can be taken on 12 and from there on, your feats are open.

If you're allowed Flaws (Unearthed Arcana - have some penalties in exchange for an extra feat), you could push the whole tree back by a few levels, taking Improved Skirmish and Mobility on 6 with Improved Two-Weapon Fighting on 9, going straight Dervish from 7 forward. As a bonus, this build could act as the party trapfinder.


Fighter 4/Barbarian 1 (or anything with full BAB, really - if you have Tome of Battle, go Warblade)/Dervish 10/whatever 5: This build would use Weapon Specialization and Melee Weapon Mastery (Player's Handbook II) for damage boost early on, later on picking up feats like Deadly Defense (Complete Scoundrel) and company, along with Extra Rage at some point if Barbarian.


Scout 4/Ranger 15/Cloistered Cleric 1: Take Undeath and Travel-domains (in addition to the Knowledge). Trade Travel and Knowledge for appropriate Devotions (Complete Champion) and use all your Turn Undeads (all 6 of them - 2 base + 4 from Undeath-domain's Extra Turnings) for Travel Devotion. This feat allows you to, for 1 minute per use (you'll have 4 uses; 1 base + 3 from Turn Undeads), move up to your speed as a Swift Action. This allows you to move, activate Skirmish and full attack.

Feats should go like earlier, except without Dodge, Mobility, Combat Expertise and Weapon Focus - spend those feats to increase your damage and abilities instead (Flay Foe, Improved Skirmish, etc.) along with Swift Hunter. You won't have too many feats due to Two-Weapon Fighting tree and Swift Hunter costing you most of them, so not to worry about that (oh yeah, don't forget to pick up Darkstalker from Lords of Madness; allows you to Hide even from Blindsight et company).


Regardless of the road you choose, you need some source of extra damage. Skirmish is a good one, the Melee Weapon Mastery and similar feats are also ok, and Dervish is quite fine. Without any sources of extra damage, you're just dead against anything with Damage Reduction and overall not nearly as effective as the guy who didn't spend any feats on Two-Weapon Fighting and is swinging his Two-Handed Weapon with Power Attack.

Other things to add:
-You really want Tome of Battle. I mean, really. It gives you:
*Stormguard Warrior (tactical feat; it allows you to make Touch Attacks for one turn to make you next turn's attacks with a damage bonus equal to 5xTouch Attack Hits)
*Bloodclaw Master (requires two Tiger Claw-maneuvers; something you'll have if you took any ToB-levels anyways, and removes your Two-Weapon Fighting-penalties, gives you full Strength-bonus to your off-hand attacks and some totally random bonuses, being overall ridiculously useful for TWFers. Bonus: You only need two levels for all the good stuff; 3 if you want more stances and maneuvers)
*Punishing Stance (a 1st level Iron Heart-stance - a way to gain 1d6 extra damage to all attacks; great especially early on, although it costs you AC)
*Blood in Water (a 1st level Tiger Claw-stance - whenever you score a critical hit, you get +1 to attack and damage for the rest of the encounter and it stacks with itself; use Kukris/Scimitars to stack up those Criticals (especially Keen/Improved Critical ones) and go nuts, especially in bigger fights)
*Whole Tiger Claw-disciple: there're tons of maneuvers there that give you an extra attack for each weapon you're wielding, deal extra damage based on how many attacks you have and so on. Oh, and a Pounce-maneuver, that allows you to Charge and Full Attack.
*Desert Wind too: A dozen ways to add a ton of Fire-damage to every attack you make; incinerate everything that isn't fire-immune. The school also offers some teleportation and cool stuff (it's a magical school).

-Look at Revenant Blade. It's a 5-level Elf-only Prestige Class in Player's Guide to Eberron. It is about studying this wonderful weapon called Valenar Double Scimitar, and along the way, you among others learn to use both ends of it as Two-Handed Weapons (for Power Attack, among others!). Oh yeah, and you gain the ability to learn eventually three feats you can switch from day to day (all related to the Double Scimitar somehow though), class level to Hide/Move Silently and some more minor bonuses. Definitely worth the 5 levels if you can take the class (it's Eberron-specific) - it's pretty much the best complement to Dervish you could have, and superb for a Tome of Battle-based Two-Weapon Fighter too.

-Check out Champion of Corellon Larethian - Races of the Wild houses this Elf-only Prestige Class, a 2-level dip gives you Dex to damage (in addition to Str) as Precision for a few weapons. They're all primarily one-handed, but Scimitar is on the list and Dervish makes it a Light Weapon, so a handy way to add Dex to damage for a Dervish. It's Precision though so you'll have to ask yourself if it's that good; Skirmish tends to be more numerous and with Swift Hunter, fewer things are immune to it.

-If you have spare feats, take a look at this chain:
Combat Reflexes > Double Hit (Miniatures Handbook) > Robilar's Gambit (Player's Handbook Two) - this gives you two attacks every time, an opponent hits you. Become Large somehow (Enlarge Person, for example) adding Thicket of Blades-stance (Tome of Battle), Stand Still (Expanded Psionics Handbook/SRD (http://www.d20srd.com) - it's not a Psionic feat despite the book it's in), Mage Slayer (Complete Arcana) and Defensive Sweep (Player's Handbook II). At this point, basically regardless of what your opponents do or don't do, you'll be doing a bunch of Attacks of Opportunity on them per turn.


That's about it. Ultimately I do suggest you ask your DM if he combined Improved and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting into Two-Weapon Fighting (as long as you match the given Dexterity-prerequisite, you'd get the extra attack on the level you normally get an extra attack too). It's fair and makes TWF slightly less horrible compared to Two-Handed Fighting.

Aneantir
2008-08-14, 12:36 AM
In that case, snag Improved Crit(Kukri) and the Blood in the Water stance, for maximum crititude.

Improved Critical (Kukri) or the Keen enchantment on them, either one works great. So, basically, you end up (with your current stats, +1 more to strength for leveling) with dual wielded +1 Kukris, attacking at +17 (+1 enhancement, +1 Weapon Focus, +2 Melee Weapon Mastery, +7 BAB, +5 strength), dealing 1d4+10 each, with a critical range of 15-20, and a stacking +1 modifier everytime you land a critical on attack and damage rolls. This is all at level 8, so just two levels from where you start.

Overall, very solid.

Eldariel
2008-08-14, 12:44 AM
Get party mage cast Greater Magic Weapon on both for +2. Although it's a bit wasteful to go for the Weapon Spec-tree. Still, knock yourself out if you have the feats to burn (I'd probably get at least Combat Reflexes though, along with possibly some tacticals from Warblade). Also, by then the Strength could already be around +8 or so (2 from levels, +2-+4 item along with potential +2 from Enlarge Person) - he's starting with ~20.

The open feats (and potentially the Weapon Focus-line too) could become instead Prestige Class-entry feats or Combat Reflexes-line feats.

Aneantir
2008-08-14, 01:02 AM
Get party mage cast Greater Magic Weapon on both for +2. Although it's a bit wasteful to go for the Weapon Spec-tree. Still, knock yourself out if you have the feats to burn (I'd probably get at least Combat Reflexes though, along with possibly some tacticals from Warblade). Also, by then the Strength could already be around +8 or so (2 from levels, +2-+4 item along with potential +2 from Enlarge Person) - he's starting with ~20.

The open feats (and potentially the Weapon Focus-line too) could become instead Prestige Class-entry feats or Combat Reflexes-line feats.

I generally assume un-buffed situations, and I hadn't bothered to account for items, but yes, thats right, it could be much higher than as I showed. The point is, it's solid damage output.

The weapon spec tree was, more or less, because he seemed to want to be a fighter for the extra feats, so with 4 levels of the class you can pickup focus and specialization without too much trouble since you have feats to burn, and then take Melee Weapon Mastery, since I've always been fond of it, and make an effort to fit it into whatever Warblade or Fighter build wherever I have the room.

But yea, so, lets assume a strength bonus of +8, your attack/damage now look like this at level 8:

Attack: 7(BAB)+8(strength)+1(weapon enhancement)+1(focus)+2(mastery) = +19

Damage: 8(strength)+1(enhancement)+2(specialization)+2(mas tery) = 1d4+13

If you decide to pickup Improved Critical instead of the Keen enhancement for your Kukris, then take the Tiger Claw enhancement from Tome of Battle. It'll give you +3 to your attacks for a +1 enhancement as long as you're in a Tiger Claw stance, and after that add in Collision, a +2 enhancement from the Magic Item Compendium, adds 5 damage to your weapon, which stacks on criticals, which you'll have loads of.

Fiendish_Dire_Moose
2008-08-14, 01:11 AM
Don't know if anyone's mentioned it or not, so here goes: If any book is allowed, you want to snag Complete Adventurer. So that you can grab, "Oversized Two Weapons Fighting" feat. It treats your offhand, one handed weapon, as light for the purposes of penalties.
You then snag Weapon Focus (Your tool of the trade), and make them masterwork, or atleast +1, and you've eliminated your penalties.

Aneantir
2008-08-14, 01:14 AM
Don't know if anyone's mentioned it or not, so here goes: If any book is allowed, you want to snag Complete Adventurer. So that you can grab, "Oversized Two Weapons Fighting" feat. It treats your offhand, one handed weapon, as light for the purposes of penalties.

Which is decent, but I've never really saw the appeal to it. The only thing it has going for it is that you can then power attack with both weapons, so the penalty for your off-hand isn't for nothing.

Alternatively, if you want to play a really reckless character, pick that up as well as Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Warmace), I believe thats from Complete Warrior. Dual wielding 1d12 weapons that each give you a -1 penalty to AC. I ran a frenzied berserker with it for the express purpose of having my AC be as low as a trees.

Edit: And as far as eliminating penalties go, thats not what you're doing with masterwork weapons and weapon focus, thats compensating for them. Eliminating penalties is what Tempest and Bloodclaw Master do, so that your weapon focus, enhancement, and other bonuses stack on top of that giving you a strong chance to hit rather than a mediocre one.

Darrin
2008-08-14, 07:36 AM
Instead of Oversized TWF, there's a +1 enhancement that makes a Bastard sword wieldable like a shortsword. When Bunko's is back up(along with the rest of the forum), I'll have name/book.

It's not an enhancement. It's in one of the Ravenloft books, Expedition I think: the dormant training-wheels version of the Sunsword. At 3000 GP, an absolute bargain and ready for further enchantment.

Eighth_Seraph
2008-08-14, 07:57 AM
I'm not even going to try to get an optimized class combo out, but the Twin Dao (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3807210&postcount=3) that we made for the Avatar project are generally worth the proficiency feat. 1d8 damage, 18-20 critical range, one-handed weapon counting as light for TWF. AND you can enchant the twin dao as a single weapon and use it as two. What's not to love?

AstralFire
2008-08-14, 08:22 AM
I'm not even going to try to get an optimized class combo out, but the Twin Dao (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3807210&postcount=3) that we made for the Avatar project are generally worth the proficiency feat. 1d8 damage, 18-20 critical range, one-handed weapon counting as light for TWF. AND you can enchant the twin dao as a single weapon and use it as two. What's not to love?

Eh. Homebrew doesn't really export well. I try to avoid mentioning it, personally, unless it's stated to be one of the resources. The Twin Dao will come off as broken to most DMs; it's a double weapon, except you only have to pay for one of them and it doesn't pay for it in any respect - its individual stats are on par with the Bastard Sword and Waraxe.

Darrin
2008-08-14, 08:39 AM
If you're wielding scimitars and you're an elf, Champion of Corellon Larethian (RotW p 113) is also good. You can't get in until level 8, but the second level gives you dex to damage with elvishy weapons, notably scimitars. It shares a couple of prereq's with Dervish, and Dervish qualifies scimitars for Weapon Finesse and, more importantly, a Swashbuckler's Insightful Strike.

If you're willing to spend the EWP on it, you can also pick up the Elven Courtblade, a two-handed weapon with a nice crit range that's finessable.

If you dip into SwordSage and pick up Shadow Blade, you can add double your Dex to damage (has to be a Shadow Hand weapon, though). There are also a couple "intelligent warrior" builds that combine Warblade and Swashbuckler for adding Int to damage (and various other rolls).

Dervish isn't actually all that great. You can get everything spiffy it has to offer with two feats: Oversize TWF (which still allows Power Attack if you want to try that with TWF) and the Travel Devotion (for move+full attack). It requires four mediocre or useless feats (Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Focus).

Dervish is miles above the lameness of Tempest, however. Tempest requires way too many useless feats that you'll hardly ever use with a TWF fighter. It's much more effective to dip into Bloodclaw Master for two levels to eliminate the -2 penalty from TWF. And the Tiger Claw maneuvers don't hurt all that much, either.

To make an effective TWF build that keeps pace with the THF PA/Leap Attack/Shock Trooper wombats, you need a consistent source of bonus damage on all your attacks. There are a couple schools of thought on how to bump up that bonus damage. Sneak attack or Skirmish damage can both be effective.

A Rogue 3/Swash 17 with the Daring Outlaw feat gets both Sneak Attack and Int bonus on damage. Pick up the Travel Devotion for "Pounce Lite". Add Staggering Strike and some way to use your Sneak Attack damage on undead/constructs/elementals/etc. (such as Dragonfire Strike from Dragon Magic). Not sure how you'd get around the XP penalty, unless your DM allows the "Additonal Favored Class" feat from Unearthed Arcana.

Skirmish damage is a little tougher to get a lot of. You can get up to 8d6 with a Swift Ambusher build (10d6 with Improved Skirmish):

Scout 4/Ranger 6/Dragon Devotee 4/Unseen Seer 4/Highland Stalker 2.

This could work well for a wood elf (favored class: ranger) or by adding the Arctic or Desert racial template (Dragon #306, switches favored class to ranger, no LA).

There are other builds that focus on an ability bonus for extra damage. Int-based warriors use Warblade, Swashbuckler, and Duelist to make the most of your Int bonus. Dex-based would be mostly Champion of Correlian + SwordSage/Shadow Blade. There are probably some Charisma builds out there (Iajutsu Master, Snowflake Wardance...?)

AstralFire
2008-08-14, 08:45 AM
And now the -real- COers come in and sweep me off my feet.

Listen to Darrin and Eldariel if you want the most for your money, I'm like the Baby Steps COer. "Today class, we're going to learn how to use TWO classes for one concept!" :smallbiggrin:

DareTheRogue
2008-08-14, 08:51 AM
Ranger 3/Fighter 2/Dervish 10/Tempest 5

Ranger 1 Combat Expertise
Fighter 1 Dodge[fighter bonus]
Ranger 2 TWF[gained from ranger], Weapon Focus (Scimitar)
Fighter 2 Mobility [fighter bonus]
Ranger 3 Endurance [gained from ranger]
Dervish 1 ITWF
Dervish 2
Dervish 3 Spring Attack [Gained from Dervish]
Tempest 1
Dervish 4
Tempest 2
Dervish 5
Tempest 3
Dervish 6
Tempest 4
Dervish 7
Tempest 5
Dervish 8
Dervish 9
Dervish 10

Eldariel
2008-08-14, 09:07 AM
Few things, Darrin:


If you dip into SwordSage and pick up Shadow Blade, you can add double your Dex to damage (has to be a Shadow Hand weapon, though). There are also a couple "intelligent warrior" builds that combine Warblade and Swashbuckler for adding Int to damage (and various other rolls).

Note his stats though. The usual reason for Weapon Finesse > Shadow Blade is because normal characters can't get the prerequisite Dex for TWF-tree without focusing on Dex. He, however, has the prerequisite filled right off the bat.

Therefore, he saves two feats (Weapon Finesse, Shadow Blade) and the freedom to choose his stances from any school, as well as the freedom to choose his weapons by not going that way - I feel, this character really screams Strength-focus, especially with Bloodclaw Master.


Dervish isn't actually all that great. You can get everything spiffy it has to offer with two feats: Oversize TWF (which still allows Power Attack if you want to try that with TWF) and the Travel Devotion (for move+full attack). It requires four mediocre or useless feats (Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Focus).

Dervish has heavy prerequisites, yes, but Dervish not only gives you the ability to full attack while moving eventually 5 times/day, it also gives you growing damage and to hit-bonuses, out of which the damage-bonuses are especially welcome. The To Hit-bonuses pretty much mean that you can pimp out your AC to whatever degree you want (with Elaborate Parry + 15 Tumble-ranks, you can take -4 in attacks for +8 to AC; combine that with the class AC bonus and normal AC boosting equipment and you can easily get around 40-50 a bit after level 10 without actually focusing on your AC, especially combining Skirmish), and One Thousand Cuts is at least sweet when you get to pull it off. I'd say Dervish is worth it, if barely.


That said, I'd only suggest it if Tome of Battle weren't available. Even Improved Skirmish is only so good and really requires either a Cleric-dip (for Travel Devotion 4/day, even in which case you risk being totally useless in the 5th encounter) or Dervish (for eventually 5/day). Also note that Prestiging out of the Swift Hunter-combo means you'll lose Favored Enemies, which means you won't be able to harm some creatures at all effectively. I would at the very least take a Stalker of Kharesh-dip before going nuts.

If you go Rogue, please, please pick Penetrating Strike ACF (3rd level - replaces Trap Sense with ability to deal SA damage to creatures otherwise immune when flanking them).

AstralFire
2008-08-14, 09:16 AM
Well, ToB solves the whole thing right off, but the topic says 'Fighter' even though he has access to all books, so I figure he doesn't want to play ToB-style.

Person_Man
2008-08-14, 09:53 AM
My suggestion:

TWF feat tree
Power Attack
Oversized TWF (Comp Adventurer)
Leap Attack (Comp Adventurer) and Pounce (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4551066&postcount=16)
and/or Favored Power Attack (Comp Warrior)

That's 6 or 7 feats. Put these together with any full BAB class and two decent magic weapons, and you're set. You can optimize it further (Flame Blade or Pyrokineticist or Master Thrower, Shock Trooper, Headlong Rush + Combat Reflexes + Karmic Strike), but its often a bad idea. Putting all of your eggs into one combo is just like asking for your DM to design encounters specifically to bypass it. Instead, I suggest diversifying. How you choose to do so depends on your character, play style, DM, etc.


Things that I think are bad ideas:

Dervish: Ridiculous requirements, modest benefits. It's easy to get a full attack every round many other ways.

Exotic Weapon Prof: Most of these provide a very minor damage bonus. A few are worth it for certain builds (net, harpoon, gnomish switchblade, Flindbar, Dragonchain, Lajatang, Longstaff, Skiprock), but for TWF, I'd generally skip it. I have a TWF build that I've been working on that uses nothing but Exotic Weapons, if you're interested. But its a bit crazy.

Anything that relies on critical hits or precision damage (Sneak Attack, Skirmish, Sudden Strike): Whole classes of enemies are immune. It's nice to have as an extra bonus (I often buy Scabbards of Keen Edges) but you don't want to invest significant resources in anything that will be useless for some/many combats.

hamishspence
2008-08-14, 09:55 AM
A few extra GP can eliminate those immunities with socketed gems from MIC. still, that leaves oozes and plants as impossible to crit.

Eldariel
2008-08-14, 10:06 AM
Dervish: Ridiculous requirements, modest benefits. It's easy to get a full attack every round many other ways.

However, Dervish is pretty much the most reliable way to go about it. Dervish is pretty much a pile of class levels where your feats are pre-determined. Without Tome of Battle in the mix, it's a fine class to take. With ToB, you can achieve similar versatility without it though.


Anything that relies on critical hits or precision damage (Sneak Attack, Skirmish, Sudden Strike): Whole classes of enemies are immune. It's nice to have as an extra bonus (I often buy Scabbards of Keen Edges) but you don't want to invest significant resources in anything that will be useless for some/many combats.

Except Swift Hunter is able to bypass those immunities, hence why I'm suggesting it - Swift Hunter is good for a reason. Also, Rogue has the ACF to partially bypass immunities.

AstralFire
2008-08-14, 10:09 AM
ACF? Sounds familiar, can't recall it.

Spiryt
2008-08-14, 10:10 AM
TWF feat tree
Power Attack
Oversized TWF (Comp Adventurer)
Leap Attack (Comp Adventurer) and Pounce (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4551066&postcount=16)
and/or Favored Power Attack (Comp Warrior)


That was mine as well, few questions P_M?

How Favored Power attack stacks with Leap attack? for + 3 or + 4 for every - 1? It always confuses me :smalltongue:

And would it be reasonable to take Extra favored enemy (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Extra_Favored_Enemy,all) (or rather some 3.5 version of it) to have better chance of benefiting from that PA goodness? Or is it still too weak feat IYO?

Eldariel
2008-08-14, 10:20 AM
ACF? Sounds familiar, can't recall it.

ACF = Alternative Class Feature - in this case, Penetrating Strike (Dungeonscape), like I mentioned earlier.


Also, OTWF Power Attack tends to be a rather poor idea - that makes you basically a Two-Handed Fighter with -2 to all attacks and 4-feat expediture + double the weapon purchase costs. That's why I prefer Precision Damage. One of the few ways to make OTWF work is, ironically, Dervish, since it gives you notable (+5) attack bonuses so you can afford the penalties, especially combined with other classes boosting your To Hit (Bloodclaw Master, for example).

AstralFire
2008-08-14, 10:24 AM
ACF = Alternative Class Feature - in this case, Penetrating Strike (Dungeonscape), like I mentioned earlier.


Also, OTWF Power Attack tends to be a rather poor idea - that makes you basically a Two-Handed Fighter with -2 to all attacks and 4-feat expediture + double the weapon purchase costs. That's why I prefer Precision Damage.

Ah, thank you.

Ditto to the OTWFPA. This is less about keeping yourself from being a one-trick pony and more about maximizing the fact that you already are a one-trick pony by being non-ToB melee utilizing an intensive feat tree. Surprised at all the Dervish nay-saying. The feats which it requires aren't the best ever, but they're solid and lots of things use them as prereqs.

Spiryt
2008-08-14, 10:29 AM
Ah, thank you.

Ditto to the OTWFPA. This is less about keeping yourself from being a one-trick pony and more about maximizing the fact that you already are a one-trick pony by being non-ToB melee utilizing an intensive feat tree.

Leap attack isn't really so "one trick". Charging only require 10 feet movement, so if only enemies aren't too far away, you can do it. And if you are Ranger with one level in Barbarian, you can charge a target up to 100 feet away.
And even without charging, you can still hit quite hard.

AstralFire
2008-08-14, 10:32 AM
Leap attack isn't really so "one trick". Charging only require 10 feet movement, so if only enemies aren't too far away, you can do it. And if you are Ranger with one level in Barbarian, you can charge a target up to 100 feet away.
And even without charging, you can still hit quite hard.

I never called Leap Attack one-trick - I make use of it in a number of builds. TWF is one-trick, however. Person Man suggested that advanced feat combos were a bad idea for TWFing characters, and while I can see where he's coming from, you already have pigeon-holed yourself upon taking TWF. Problem with PA and TWF is that they're two very incompatible styles of attack with their own extended feat chains.

NobleSavage
2008-08-14, 10:59 AM
You've got some good advice here. The Revenant Blade, Champion of Correlian, and ToB suggestions are hella good. Seriously, ToB is an amazing book, especially if you're a little tired of the caster classes' dominance.

A point: If memory serves (AFB right now), the barb variant, Lion Totem I think, only allows a full attack with light weapons, right? And as such won't allow for Power Attack, one of the most basic, and consistent, sources of damage for melee characters.

Now, I do believe there is a way to TWF and THF at the same time, was pointed out in previous threads. Grab a big weapon and Armor Spikes (d6 damage), and you can Power Attack to your heart's content. Add poison to your Spikes for added flavor and nastiness. There's a bunch of ways to fluff this up so's its cool. Maybe a boot knife, maybe elbow blades, maybe a spike that pops out from your armor's bracer so you can stab your opponent when he's least expecting it. Just think about it, you trade the Drizzt feel (making it cooler or less so, depending on you) for 1.5 str with your primary attack, and a nice Power Attack ratio.

Spiryt
2008-08-14, 11:12 AM
A point: If memory serves (AFB right now), the barb variant, Lion Totem I think, only allows a full attack with light weapons, right? And as such won't allow for Power Attack, one of the most basic, and consistent, sources of damage for melee characters.


Nope. That's the whole point of using it along with Leap Attack and the rest.

And the Whole armor spikes idea always seemed like a minor rules abuse rather than actual fight style.

AstralFire
2008-08-14, 11:26 AM
Lion Totem is from UA, the Barb Pounce is from C Champion.

NobleSavage
2008-08-14, 11:40 AM
Lion Totem is from UA, the Barb Pounce is from C Champion.

Ah, thanks. Wrong variant.


And the Whole armor spikes idea always seemed like a minor rules abuse rather than actual fight style.

Well, when you're going Core-ish melee any effective fighter will have to use and abuse some rules somewhere. And really? How many movies have you seen where the protagonist throws a forearmed bash after a down sword-stroke? Or a knee to the gut? This should be normal operating procedure/style for fighters; no one just uses their primary weapon when fighting. This is just the mechanics of it.

Spiryt
2008-08-14, 11:47 AM
Well, when you're going Core-ish melee any effective fighter will have to use and abuse some rules somewhere. And really? How many movies have you seen where the protagonist throws a forearmed bash after a down sword-stroke? Or a knee to the gut? This should be normal operating procedure/style for fighters; no one just uses their primary weapon when fighting. This is just the mechanics of it.

Well, indeed body actions are kinda important in armoured fights, although there is already bullrush for it... Although in movies it ussually look just really mock :smallyuk:

I will remove spikes though and make it normal slams.

They do d6 + 0,5 strenght then, yes ? And since it's treated as light weapon, I guess that all other modifiers (Favoured enemy) works too...

Person_Man
2008-08-14, 11:50 AM
That was mine as well, few questions P_M?

How Favored Power attack stacks with Leap attack? for + 3 or + 4 for every - 1? It always confuses me :smalltongue:

Favored Power Attack: "When you use the Power Attack feat against a favored enemy, you may subtract a number from your melee attack rolls and add twice that number to your melee damage rolls."

Leap Attack increases it "by 100%" according to the errata.

So I think that together, they'd add up to +4/-1 per weapon. But check with your DM. I'm not great at stacking rules.

Incidentally, this is why you need Oversized Two Weapon Fighting. Power Attack does not apply to light weapons. It also opens up using 2 lances while riding your animal companion, for an easy massive damage combo without using Leap Attack.


And would it be reasonable to take Extra favored enemy (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Extra_Favored_Enemy,all) (or rather some 3.5 version of it) to have better chance of benefiting from that PA goodness? Or is it still too weak feat IYO?

I don't think Extra Favored Enemy is worth it. My preferred method is to take two levels of Harper Paragon or Stalker of Kharash (both of which also progress your Ranger spells). This gives you Favored Enemy (Evil). You can also take Favored Enemy (Arcanist) as an alternate class feature (Complete Mage). Spend all your other Favored Enemy slots on non-evil non-magic using things, and you should be able to use it the vast majority of the time. Also Ranger 5/Stalker 2/Ranger 6-18 with the feats I suggest and Sword of the Arcane Order (Champions of Valor) is a non-cheesy but playable class combo, so its much more likely that your DM will actually allow it.


However, Dervish is pretty much the most reliable way to go about it. Dervish is pretty much a pile of class levels where your feats are pre-determined. Without Tome of Battle in the mix, it's a fine class to take. With ToB, you can achieve similar versatility without it though.

I disagree. Even without ToB, there are 20 something ways to get Pounce with a minor investment. I provided a link to them. Dervish requires 3 useless feats, and the other benefits it provides (slightly faster movement, minor bonuses) aren't that useful until you get to its capstone ability (which you can use once per day).


Except Swift Hunter is able to bypass those immunities, hence why I'm suggesting it - Swift Hunter is good for a reason. Also, Rogue has the ACF to partially bypass immunities.

You are correct. There are plenty of workarounds for Precision Damage out there, which make Precision Damage builds playable and fun.

However, Sneak Attack and Skirmish scale slower then Power Attack, and scale ridiculously slower then Leap Attack and/or Favored Power Attack and/or anything that multiplies damage (Battle Jump, Headlong Rush, Spirited Charge, Rhino Rush, Valorous Weapon, etc). So if your goal is to maximize damage output, then the more optimal way to go is Power Attack. If your goal is to play a mobile striker skill monkey, then Swift Hunter is a great choice.

NobleSavage
2008-08-14, 11:55 AM
Well, indeed body actions are kinda important in armoured fights, although there is already bullrush for it... Although in movies it ussually look just really mock :smallyuk:

I will remove spikes though and make it normal slams.

They do d6 + 0,5 strenght then, yes ? And since it's treated as light weapon, I guess that all other modifiers (Favoured enemy) works too...

Yeah, and I support the idea of changing damage types for armor-weapons. Shield blades are much cooler than spikes, imo.

Spiryt
2008-08-14, 11:57 AM
Yeah, and I support the idea of changing damage types for armor-weapons. Shield blades are much cooler than spikes, imo.

By shield blades you mean?

ianus
2008-08-14, 04:24 PM
Well, some things i think can help your two-weapon ranger -demon_eye's-,
1. feats like, flay foe -since u have 19 STR- and two weapon rend will let you deal more damage, the more hits you land the better.

2. i guess AC can be a problem for two-weapon style and not everyone has feats to spend on TWD, ITWD e.c. so you could buy an animated shield in order to improve your AC a bit, or you could get the twin-sword style feat -waterdeep- that grants a 2 dodge bonus while u r equipped with two weapons.

3. a 2 lvl -at least- deep in fighter is as good as mentioned above, and the 2 prcs are both good but require many feats, so you can multiclass in fighter and then go for the prc.

Deepblue706
2008-08-14, 04:28 PM
The best TWF route is a sword and shield!

Get Agile Shield Fighter, Improved Shield Bash, Shield Charge.

Get Throw Anything.

Get Weapon Focus: Light Shield.

Take a level of Master Thrower. Take Trip Attack.

Now you can trip people as part of a charge. And then full attack them with a sword and a shield, and keep the shield bonus to AC. And then throw your shield at them as they try to run away. And make them fall down again.

Bwahahaha!

Eldariel
2008-08-14, 04:36 PM
You are correct. There are plenty of workarounds for Precision Damage out there, which make Precision Damage builds playable and fun.

However, Sneak Attack and Skirmish scale slower then Power Attack, and scale ridiculously slower then Leap Attack and/or Favored Power Attack and/or anything that multiplies damage (Battle Jump, Headlong Rush, Spirited Charge, Rhino Rush, Valorous Weapon, etc). So if your goal is to maximize damage output, then the more optimal way to go is Power Attack. If your goal is to play a mobile striker skill monkey, then Swift Hunter is a great choice.

If you wanna max Power Attack though, there's little reason to go Two-Weapon Fight; the multipliers are twice larger for a Two-Handed Weapon and you get +2 to hit for much higher average damage. That's my problem with TWF Power Attack; you're effectively wasting 4 feats on it just because you can.

Eventually Dervish gets:
+5 to hit
+5 to damage

That's a huge increase in the average damage dealt per turn and also allows you to hit rather well while being practically untouchable (average creature of the same level doesn't tend to be able to reliably hit Level Appropriate AC + 12). If Dervish only makes use of the offensive abilities, it's not probably worth it, but if it makes use of the combination of offensive and defensive abilities the class gives, it gets much better. I don't really like One Thousand Cuts that much, except in campaigns with a clear BBEG; 1/day abilities tend to be rather weak on PCs (even though that particular ability does pack a punch).

The feats are quite weak on top, but Dodge/Mobility also leads to the awesome Elusive Target, Dodge can be replaced with Expeditious Dodge/Desert Wind Dodge for greater benefits, and Weapon Focus can be used to lead into Melee Weapon Mastery, which isn't that horrible. And Combat Expertise is useful on its own and even more so as a prerequisite to Improved Trip. But I can say out of experience that I've pretty much soloed plenty of encounters with simply the combination of Elaborate Parry + Combat Expertise AC maximization, including a similar level Swiftblade with Divine Companion +15s to everything (in a 2-character party, mind you). I can say out of experience that while they aren't spellcasting-good, the ability is still plenty good. Basically, Dervish is quite good for the "Big Numbers"-plan. It gives you high AC, high to hit, reasonable damage and a handy speed increase at the expense of a bunch of feats. Dervish Dance notably can be used in any kind of an environment, while many environments make Pounce unusable (difficult terrain in all its shapes and forms).

Frosty
2008-08-14, 04:41 PM
Isn't there also a Shield Sling feat from PHB2?

Hey, anyone wanna stat out Captain America?

Spiryt
2008-08-14, 04:43 PM
If you wanna max Power Attack though, there's little reason to go Two-Weapon Fight; the multipliers are twice larger for a Two-Handed Weapon and you get +2 to hit for much higher average damage. That's my problem with TWF Power Attack; you're effectively wasting 4 feats on it just because you can.



I think that the whole thing is that Leap attack with two weapons gives you effective +4 dam for - 1 attack.

With - 7 from Power Att and - 2 from TWF, versus - 9 from Power attack, TWF gets + 28 damage opposed to +27.

So at - 9 and higher attack penalty TWF gets better.

Add some other bonuses and with things like favored power attack, Frenzied Berserker and some spells, TWF ends like very good Power Attacker.

Of course, the problem is that, according to some errata, Leap attack gives + 100% power attack, so THF have this bonus as well. But I think that not very smart errata.

Eldariel
2008-08-14, 04:49 PM
I'd only TWF Power Attack if I went Revenant Blade, which isn't a bad idea at all though (it's a fine combo with Dervish; Dervish gives you improved To Hit so you can afford more extreme Power Attacks when not in a position to Pounce). The errata is official, whether you like it or not - that's the very reason why THF is better at Power Attacking.

Spiryt
2008-08-14, 04:56 PM
The errata is official, whether you like it or not - that's the very reason why THF is better at Power Attacking.

Well, then my idea goes to homebrew, it seems.

Aneantir
2008-08-14, 05:51 PM
Isn't there also a Shield Sling feat from PHB2?

Hey, anyone wanna stat out Captain America?

http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-749967#post10825643

Tadaa!