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Crow
2008-08-14, 12:56 AM
Alchemy Preview (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20080814b)

Look at the cost for alchemist's fire at level 26...and what do you get? Once.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-08-14, 01:00 AM
Well, it's a pretty Epic flask - +29 to hit :smalltongue:

Seriously though, these look pretty good for low levels. Nothing says you have to spend the 45K gold even at level 30 - you can probably get some very nice fire with just the 9K flasks.

But this looks like how they're going to deal with Crafting rules in the future. Take a feat, and spend the gold.

Crow
2008-08-14, 01:04 AM
Well, it's a pretty Epic flask - +29 to hit :smalltongue:

Seriously though, these look pretty good for low levels. Nothing says you have to spend the 45K gold even at level 30 - you can probably get some very nice fire with just the 9K flasks.

But this looks like how they're going to deal with Crafting rules in the future. Take a feat, and spend the gold.

Yeah, the 9k is a much better deal. The lower level ones are actually pretty cost effective once you're way higher level...use them on your arrows for extra damage. I'd probably skip them until then. The money epic characters have makes the lowest level alchemist fire look like it costs only pennies.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-08-14, 01:10 AM
Yeah, the 9k is a much better deal. The lower level ones are actually pretty cost effective once you're way higher level...use them on your arrows for extra damage. I'd probably skip them until then. The money epic characters have makes the lowest level alchemist fire look like it costs only pennies.

I didn't even notice that! Man, that'll be nasty with ranger powers:

"Why yes, I did just send out two burst 1 blasts with my Longbow in one round. It seemed like a good way to take out the block of minions right there"

Hmm... and +4 v. Reflex is pretty good for levels 1-3. Ranger-Rogues can make Alchemist Fire for themselves at that...

EDIT: hey, a lot of those had Thievery as their trained skill. Interesting... so these are rituals for thieves then?

Crow
2008-08-14, 01:13 AM
Nevermind, it still uses the flask's attack bonus. All it says is that it uses the weapon's range. I'm not even sure if you get the weapon's damage. No proficiency bonus. No enhancement bonus to hit either, so who knows if you get it with damage. It's a little expensive at the levels where it'd be useful.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-08-14, 01:18 AM
Nevermind, it still uses the flask's attack bonus. It's a little expensive at the levels where it'd be useful.

I dunno. Really, at level 2, you'll be hitting on +5 v. Reflex (if the 1/2 level bonus still applies) which is as good as an 18 INT Wizard. Sure, it doesn't make much sense to start massing LV 2 Fire Arrows at LV 11, but they can do a real job on minions in the right hands (that is to say, rangers... or Rogues with Blinding Barrage!).

But they'll probably update to say you can't actually use these with powers. Oh well. :smallsigh:

Crow
2008-08-14, 01:38 AM
If you get 1/2 level with the flask, then the +29 at level 26 will be outstanding. +42!

Kurald Galain
2008-08-14, 03:17 AM
Again, way too expensive. Although at least you don't have to spend ten minutes to use them...

At level 25+, 45k should be a sizeable amount of money, still. And you can't really use the 9k variant at that point because your chances to hit with it are abysmal.

Dausuul
2008-08-14, 07:05 AM
If you get 1/2 level with the flask, then the +29 at level 26 will be outstanding. +42!

I'm virtually certain you do not get any such bonus. If you did, it would say something like "Dexterity vs Reflex."

Human Paragon 3
2008-08-14, 10:00 AM
Looks cool. I like the rules and how they are consistent with ritual casting. I like that anyone can make alchemical items if they have the feat. And I like the fact that you can make high level alchemical items.

But 450gp for a smoke stick? wtf?

And why shouldn't you get half your level? You get half your level to everything.

Tengu_temp
2008-08-14, 10:10 AM
Tanglefoot Bags are awesomer than ever before. The other stuff is a waste of money. And I'm quite sure that these weapons have a fixed attack bonus, you don't add anything to it, ever.

Yakk
2008-08-14, 11:40 AM
The half-the-level is already factored into the to-hit bonus. You can see the bonus is (Level+3), which is the target number for monster to-hit (which includes all bonuses) against Reflex.

And yes, they are set up to be a significant cost. This prevents you from spamming them at any level.

Larrin
2008-08-14, 12:26 PM
As Yak said the half level is built in, and its the Items level, not yours. The item is making the attack, not you. You're just getting it to the target, you can't make it 'more splashy' or 'More tangly' by throwing it better or something.

fractic
2008-08-14, 12:27 PM
About the pricing. 45000 GP might be a lot of gold but it not really that much at level 25. I feel the forum is a bit stuck in the 3.5 mentality. In 3.5 items where priced on a quadratic scale (spell level * caster level, +n weapon costs 2000*n^2, WBL is quadratic) while in 4e items are priced on an exponential scale. When you create a character at lvl 26 you get magic items worth 3.375.000 GP and 625.000 GP in cash. At level 6 you get 4500 and 1000 respectivly.

Now a level 26 flask of alchemist fire will cost 45.000 or about 7.2% of your 62500 cash. While at level 6 a flask costs a mere 75 GP but that's still 7.5% of that 1000 GP cash.

The same goes for rituals. Yes the high level scrying rituals are insanly expansive when you're low level but at the levels you're supposed to get them they cost about as much as a lvl 3 ritual cost at lvl 3.

Yakk
2008-08-14, 12:49 PM
1 a.d. = 10,000 gp.

So ... the flask of level 26 fire is only 7.5 ad. Cheap!


But 450gp for a smoke stick? wtf?
Using ancient technology, you try to make a light-weight, reliable device that generates smoke that spreads that far and lasts that long!

Kids these days!

Crow
2008-08-14, 12:49 PM
About the pricing. 45000 GP might be a lot of gold but it not really that much at level 25. I feel the forum is a bit stuck in the 3.5 mentality. In 3.5 items where priced on a quadratic scale (spell level * caster level, +n weapon costs 2000*n^2, WBL is quadratic) while in 4e items are priced on an exponential scale. When you create a character at lvl 26 you get magic items worth 3.375.000 GP and 625.000 GP in cash. At level 6 you get 4500 and 1000 respectivly.

Now a level 26 flask of alchemist fire will cost 45.000 or about 7.2% of your 62500 cash. While at level 6 a flask costs a mere 75 GP but that's still 7.5% of that 1000 GP cash.

The same goes for rituals. Yes the high level scrying rituals are insanly expansive when you're low level but at the levels you're supposed to get them they cost about as much as a lvl 3 ritual cost at lvl 3.

The price would be reasonable if it wasn't a one-time use item that did lackluster damage at that level.

I actually like the smokesticks though.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-08-14, 12:52 PM
About the pricing. 45000 GP might be a lot of gold but it not really that much at level 25. I feel the forum is a bit stuck in the 3.5 mentality. In 3.5 items where priced on a quadratic scale (spell level * caster level, +n weapon costs 2000*n^2, WBL is quadratic) while in 4e items are priced on an exponential scale. When you create a character at lvl 26 you get magic items worth 3.375.000 GP and 625.000 GP in cash. At level 6 you get 4500 and 1000 respectivly.

Now a level 26 flask of alchemist fire will cost 45.000 or about 7.2% of your 62500 cash. While at level 6 a flask costs a mere 75 GP but that's still 7.5% of that 1000 GP cash.

The same goes for rituals. Yes the high level scrying rituals are insanly expansive when you're low level but at the levels you're supposed to get them they cost about as much as a lvl 3 ritual cost at lvl 3.

Well said, though I still think it's kind of funny imagining the following scene:
Alchemist: "It is done! Here is your epic jar of Alchemist Fire."
Fighter: *looks it over* "That little thing? What does it do?"
Alchemist: "It is a mighty weapon! It does 4d6 points of fire damage in a 15 x 15 foot square. Quite deadly!"
Fighter: "4d6 damage? I did more than that with a first level encounter power! How much does it cost?"
Alchemist: "A real bargain! Only 45,000 gold!"
Fighter: *stunned silence*
Wizard: "Well, it is a really nice jar."

EDIT:

Using ancient technology, you try to make a light-weight, reliable device that generates smoke that spreads that far and lasts that long!

It creates a 15 x 15 foot zone of Light Obscuring smoke, that lasts until the end of your next turn... and takes a Standard Action to set off. Why would anyone use such a thing, if it costs 150 gold (450 on the market!). I guess a Rogue could spend an Action Point to use Bluff and then run into it, remaining hidden for a turn :smallconfused:

fractic
2008-08-14, 01:03 PM
The price would be reasonable if it wasn't a one-time use item that did lackluster damage at that level.

I actually like the smokesticks though.

I'll admid that the lvl 26 alchemist fire is unimpressive but that's more because the item doesn't do enough damage rather than being to expensive. My post was ment a bit more general because I've seen a bunch of post complaining about scrying being so expensive.

bosssmiley
2008-08-14, 01:12 PM
Ick! And I thought the epic poisons web enhancement for the 3.0 ELH was an ugly mechanic. :smallyuk:
Smokestick: create a lightly obscured effect in 1 square radius for 150gp. I presume that "lightly obscured" = 3E "partial concealment"?

Antivenom So-so. Flat +2 bonus though? Surely that should scale by tier?

Tanglefoot bags Ok; but I'd not be keen to pay the asking price for the higher tier ones (even if the price is a fixed %age of WBL).

Epic Alchemist's Fire?
Lvl 26 minimum level to craft and 45,000 gp gets you a one-shot +29 vs. Reflex; burst 1; 4d6 (2d6 on miss) fire damage item.
4d6 at 26th level? I hope that's a typo. :smallconfused:
Broccoli dog (http://wealsoran.com/music/uploaded_images/images_do_not_want-741686.jpg) at Alchemy as previewed.

The showcased items seem to be nothing but scale-by-level versions of 3E alchemical items. WOTC writers should go and look up what epic (http://definr.com/epic) actually means. Epic != same %age chance to affect enemy, but more expensive.

icefractal
2008-08-14, 01:24 PM
The key is to use the arrow version to supplement your normal attacks at high levels, and not even try to hit with it. Think of it this way:

Alchemist's Fire Arrows:
Does an extra 3d6/2 (avg 5.25) damage in a burst 1 on every shot. For the price of a single L26 flask, you get 90 of them.

That's not bad, most damage bonuses being as low as they are in 4E.

MammonAzrael
2008-08-14, 01:27 PM
I'm going to have to agree with everyone else so far. The Alchemy items are lackluster. First off, why the fixed attack bonuses? :smallconfused: They don't do anything you can already do (and likely better) with powers, so why make them deal less damage, be less accurate, and way more expensive? Alchemical items did too little in 3.5, and it seems like the trend is continuing. :smallfrown:

At this rate, I'm caring less and less about the upcoming new MIC (Adventurer's Vault?)


The key is to use the arrow version to supplement your normal attacks at high levels, and not even try to hit with it. Think of it this way:

Alchemist's Fire Arrows:
Does an extra 3d6/2 (avg 5.25) damage in a burst 1 on every shot. For the price of a single L26 flask, you get 90 of them.

That's not bad, most damage bonuses being as low as they are in 4E.

Except that it's not extra damage. As I understand it, this item replaces any weapon damage (and all the modifiers that go with it) and you can't use it in conjunction with any powers.

fractic
2008-08-14, 01:29 PM
The key is to use the arrow version to supplement your normal attacks at high levels, and not even try to hit with it. Think of it this way:

Alchemist's Fire Arrows:
Does an extra 3d6/2 (avg 5.25) damage in a burst 1 on every shot. For the price of a single L26 flask, you get 90 of them.

That's not bad, most damage bonuses being as low as they are in 4E.

I don't think it works like that. I got the idea that you create individual arrows imbued with alchemist fire and you can only use those arrows to make the alchmist fire style attacks. I don't think you can use them in combination with other powers at all.

Crow
2008-08-14, 01:30 PM
The key is to use the arrow version to supplement your normal attacks at high levels, and not even try to hit with it. Think of it this way:

Alchemist's Fire Arrows:
Does an extra 3d6/2 (avg 5.25) damage in a burst 1 on every shot. For the price of a single L26 flask, you get 90 of them.

That's not bad, most damage bonuses being as low as they are in 4E.

Nope. All the enhanced ammunition gets is the range of whatever weapon you're firing it from. You still use the flask's to-hit. No proficiency or enhancement bonus to hit. You don't even get whatever damage you would normally get from the weapon as it is written right now.

Shadowtraveler
2008-08-14, 01:35 PM
I think the problem might be the way magic items all have the same price at the same level.

Then again, Alchemy is the art of turning gold into less gold, so...:smallwink:

Greenfaun
2008-08-14, 02:14 PM
I've just read it, and I like it except the aforementioned issue with the flasks of alchemist's fire.

Wouldn't it make more sense for the flask to simply take the place of the enhancement bonus from a weapon with a +1 to +6, according to tier? That way, if you're shooting cheapo arrows from a really nice bow, it hurts you, but in a reasonable way, not a totally useless way. That way, the proficiency bonus from classes that can use thrown and ranged weapons still matters, which seems desireable to me. Shouldn't rogues and artificers be better with alchemical weapons, instead of just whoever spends the most money gets the best bonus?

I guess this is just another example of me not understanding their desire to make lower-level items and rituals completely useless to high-level players.

TwystidMynd
2008-08-14, 02:26 PM
Yeah, at this point, I'd be tempted to allow any applicable proficiency bonuses and magic weapon enhancements to apply to modified Ammunition.
Or perhaps give people who take the Alchemy feat get a +2 proficiency bonus with anything alchemy-related. I dunno, just brainstorming.

Holocron Coder
2008-08-14, 02:37 PM
I read the alchemist fire usages this way:

1: You coat the arrow with the alchemist fire
2: You fire the arrow into a square surrounded by enemies (automatically hit the SQUARE, not anyone in it)
3: Alchemist fire activates and makes its own attack against everyone in range (With a Dex of 16/17, making it a Level + 3, which is the number written).

In essence, you're not making the attack, the fire is. That is also why your weapon damage and powers don't matter; you're attacking a square, not an enemy.

Now, what would be fun is coming up with actually shooting someone with the arrow.

I imagine... your normal to-hit against that person. A hit and they automatically suffer the extra damage along with yours, and then the fire makes it's normal attack against adjacent enemies. Miss and treat it as normal.

Thus, it is always better to attack someone with it than not, unless you have a nice little ring (or almost-ring) surrounding an empty square.

FoE
2008-08-14, 02:42 PM
I'm still a little fuzzy on this, but would it be out of the question to allow the alchemist's fire grant some kind of continuing damage? You know, because the fire is chemical, not magical, it doesn't burn out instantly?

JackMage666
2008-08-14, 03:21 PM
The real question is, can a Rogue hurling a Alchemist Flask from a sling or firing one from a crossbow deal sneak attack damage to everyone hit with the flask?

mayonase
2008-08-14, 03:23 PM
I'm still a little fuzzy on this, but would it be out of the question to allow the alchemist's fire grant some kind of continuing damage? You know, because the fire is chemical, not magical, it doesn't burn out instantly?

It seems to me that they're making alchemist's fire more explosive than burning in this edition. HE as opposed to Napalm. *shrug* I'm neither happy nor discontented about this; just a funny little change.

Also, somewhat off topic but about material previewed for the same book, anyone notice something funny about the Airship (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20080812b)? It's 85,000 gold. A Magic Carpet is 125,000 gold. Kinda funny that a life raft would be 1 1/2 times as expensive as the boat it was on :smallwink:. Granted, it's written mroe like a Plot Divice than any actual PC Tool, but still kinda funny.

MammonAzrael
2008-08-14, 03:25 PM
Also, somewhat off topic but about material previewed for the same book, anyone notice something funny about the Airship (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20080812b)? It's 85,000 gold. A Magic Carpet is 125,000 gold. Kinda funny that a life raft would be 1 1/2 times as expensive as the boat it was on :smallwink:. Granted, it's written mroe like a Plot Divice than any actual PC Tool, but still kinda funny.

Odd, but then you have to remember that you can just hop on the carpet and go, whereas with the ship you need a crew and a captain. Hell, and someplace to store it. The carpet you can just roll up!

Yakk
2008-08-14, 03:28 PM
A 14 damage/7 on miss 3x3 attack is decent.

Let's look at a level 30 Epic Wizard using a 3x3 fire burst.

2d6+Int+Implement+Other

Place other at, say, +3, Implement at +6, and Int at +9, we get:
Average 25 damage on a hit, 0 on a miss.

With 50-50 chance to hit, that's an average of 12.5 damage per attack.

The fire does an average of 10.5 damage per attack.

So now, any character can make an attack that is about as good as an at-will controller area attack, at the range of their bow sling or crossbow.

They just cannot do it that often, because the costs are quite decent.

And at level 30, each use of the flame is on the order of 3% of their "cash wealth", or about 1/13th the cash that comes from the average encounter (not including the more valuable magical items).

FoE
2008-08-14, 03:36 PM
Odd, but then you have to remember that you can just hop on the carpet and go, whereas with the ship you need a crew and a captain. Hell, and someplace to store it. The carpet you can just roll up!

Still, you would think it would cost more in materials, and you can't transport as many people ...

Really, I always kind of hated the flying carpet. I gave my players one and regretted it the instant I did.

Yakk
2008-08-14, 03:40 PM
The real question is, can a Rogue hurling a Alchemist Flask from a sling or firing one from a crossbow deal sneak attack damage to everyone hit with the flask?
You can deal Sneak Attack damage no more than once per round.

Kurald Galain
2008-08-14, 03:41 PM
So now, any character can make an attack that is about as good as an at-will controller area attack, at the range of their bow sling or crossbow.

And at the cost of the GBP of a small kingdom... :smallbiggrin:

Yakk
2008-08-14, 04:00 PM
Um, you are an Epic level character. You can buy small kingdoms out of the spare change in your pocket.

When an army of level 28 Ice Devil soldiers come at you, having a flask of epic alchemist fire ... sure sounds useful!

If you can get 4 targets into the area of effect, you are doing about 42 damage per standard action. This isn't "per-encounter" or "per-day" power damage, but it will deal far far more damage than a non-striker non-controller could do with an at-will power, even at level 30.

An Epic Rogue or Ranger does about 50 to 60 damage with an at-will hit. And they don't hit all of the time -- about half. So replacing your at-will attack with a vial of fire boosts the damage per round -- and it only costs gold.

Non-strickers end up doing significantly less damage, which means they require fewer targets for using the vial of fire to be a good idea.

If the Fire was good, then you'd run into the problem of high level characters being fire-throwing silly people. Instead, it is places as better than an at-will if you can hit multiple targets with it, and otherwise worse.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-08-14, 07:18 PM
Here's a little RAW analysis on Alchemist Ammunition:

Ammunition (level + 1). You create this item for use with a ranged weapon such as a bow, a crossbow, or a sling. Itemís range becomes the range of the weapon but continues to use the indicated attack modifier. The burst area remains unchanged. You do not include a weaponís proficiency bonus or enhancement bonus in the attack. The itemís component cost corresponds to the table below.

1) You cannot fire regular alchemist fire from a sling - you need to have specially made ammunition. Think of arrows with clay tips filled with alchemist fire, not fire-coated arrows.

2) The Alchemist Fire attack alters from "Area burst 1 within 10" to "Area burst 1 within X" where X is the maximum range of the weapon. Alternatively, X may be the short range for the weapon, with maximum range available at -2.

3) The attack is rolled as per the equivalent thrown flask attack. So, for a level 2 fire ammunition, it would be +4 v. Reflex. You do not add your weapon's enchantment or proficiency bonus to it.

Now, some RAI:
- This appears to be a specific attack form, like you'd have with some magic weapons (like flaming weapons). Since it has a fixed attack value, you would not add your 1/2 level, nor would you be able to make a special attack with it (like Twin Strike); it is a special, one-use attack power.

How's that sound?

fractic
2008-08-14, 07:20 PM
Here's a little RAW analysis on Alchemist Ammunition:


1) You cannot fire regular alchemist fire from a sling - you need to have specially made ammunition. Think of arrows with clay tips filled with alchemist fire, not fire-coated arrows.

2) The Alchemist Fire attack alters from "Area burst 1 within 10" to "Area burst 1 within X" where X is the maximum range of the weapon. Alternatively, X may be the short range for the weapon, with maximum range available at -2.

3) The attack is rolled as per the equivalent thrown flask attack. So, for a level 2 fire ammunition, it would be +4 v. Reflex. You do not add your weapon's enchantment or proficiency bonus to it.

Now, some RAI:
- This appears to be a specific attack form, like you'd have with some magic weapons (like flaming weapons). Since it has a fixed attack value, you would not add your 1/2 level, nor would you be able to make a special attack with it (like Twin Strike); it is a special, one-use attack power.

How's that sound?

I believe this is correct.

Ceiling009
2008-08-14, 08:18 PM
But why break the almost holy rule of add half level to everything? It seems that even at level 30, that flask has a +29 to hit and your +15, so it's a +44 to hit. When that flask alone costs 45k; the flask doesn't do anywhere near as much damage as other things of that level, nor does have an effect that could even trump what other AoE's could do at this level. Also, for an arrow, that means it's still that +44 at level 30, but then that arrow now only does 4d6 burst 1, where a twin strike could be more effective... doing something like 4d10 to one, or 2d10 to two. I think they meant to keep the half level in the accounting.

wodan46
2008-08-14, 08:38 PM
No power has anywhere near that kind of attack, your grasping at straws. Remember, its targeting Reflex even.

The advantage that the items give is ranged AOE attacks that do a fair amount of damage on a miss available as an option to every class. Keep in mind that you have immense wealth at high levels.

The highest level deals on average 14 on a hit and 7 on a miss, for 10.5 average damage.

Also, using the money needed to by 1 top level flask, you could buy 2250 of the lowest level flask, load them onto an airship, and do bombing runs on people. Since they do damage on a miss, the low attack is irrelevant. Ignoring the crits, they do roughly 1.5 damage a pop, and dropping 2250 on a relatively small area and you are going to kill anything without resistance to fire.

It would take 1 and a half months worth of manpower to produce that volume, but your epic class, you can just buy a country or something, to finance your bombing run on Orcus.

Yakk
2008-08-14, 09:22 PM
You add 1/2 your level to any attribute check.

In this case, the half level was already added by the alchemist when it was created. That is why the attack bonus is so large.

As noted, against even a handful of opponents, this beats the heck out of an at-will attack by an epic level striker class in terms of average damage dealt.

Kurald Galain
2008-08-14, 11:45 PM
But why break the almost holy rule of add half level to everything?

I agree that it would be clearer to word that fire flask as "+14 vs ref, add half your level to attack". Just a minor tweak.

Colmarr
2008-08-14, 11:52 PM
I agree that it would be clearer to word that fire flask as "+14 vs ref, add half your level to attack". Just a minor tweak.

Except that it's not minor. Under your amendment the flask gets better the higher the level of the user.

The existing rules establish two things:

1. The attack bonus of the flask is set by the item itself, not the thrower.

2. A level X flask is equally as effective regardless of whether it is made by a level X alchemist or a level X+20 one.

If you include some sort of advancement by level into the equation, you break one or both of those connections. That's not a "minor tweak".

Holocron Coder
2008-08-15, 12:12 AM
Of course, it looks like many posters overlooked/missed/ignored my large post toward the end of page 1.. that covers a lot of this :smallsmile: but w/e :smalltongue:

Oracle_Hunter
2008-08-15, 12:14 AM
Of course, it looks like many posters overlooked/missed/ignored my large post toward the end of page 1.. that covers a lot of this :smallsmile: but w/e :smalltongue:

Except that you don't coat arrows in Alchemist Fire - you make special Alchemist Fire ammunition. :smalltongue:

Holocron Coder
2008-08-15, 12:29 AM
Except that you don't coat arrows in Alchemist Fire - you make special Alchemist Fire ammunition. :smalltongue:

Yes, I will concede that :smalltongue: but the rest makes sense...