PDA

View Full Version : The Soldier and the Knight



Finn Solomon
2008-08-14, 08:27 AM
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Armour/UltimateCap.jpg

http://bp3.blogger.com/_2kjisMm3M9Y/SBLPMFcfceI/AAAAAAAADdM/j9rtUyBzaXo/s400/new_dark_knight_batman_wallpaper_2.jpg

Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. For those of you to whom the bald head and the eye-patch are a mystery, I am General Nick Fury, Director of SHIELD. The situation is critical and we do not have a lot of time. The following is what you need to know.

The city of Gotham is in chaos following the brutal murder of District Attorney Harvey Dent and the terror reign of the psychopathic Joker. Initial reports indicated that Dent died at the hands of that madman, but new intelligence suggests that the masked vigilante known only as the Batman is responsible for the death of Gotham's 'White Knight'. Following a direct emergency distress call from the Mayor of Gotham, SHIELD is authorised to utilise any means necessary to bring the Batman to justice. After due consideration, SHIELD has issued Captain Steve Rogers, recently re-commissioned hero of World War 2, and better known as Captain America, the task of dragging that stone-cold killer out of the darkness and into the light.

SHIELD agents have the city of Gotham and its surrounding boroughs in total lockdown. Nothing gets in or out. Nothing and no one, except for the Captain. Considering the formidable danger that this vigilante poses, Captain America will be the only man sent after the Batman. He has access to all the technology that the SHIELD helicarrier can remotely provide him, and strict orders to keep civillian casualties to a minimum. He has no defined time limit. The President of the United States himself is closely monitoring the situation, and has agreed to keep Gotham in lockdown until either Captain America has the Batman in custody, or is unable to succeed in doing so.

Your task today, ladies and gentlemen, because the President does not like uncertainties, is to predict an outcome to this situation. Does the Captain, with all the might of the SHIELD military budget, succeed at unmasking the foul fiend? Or does the Batman escape once again?

(Assume Ultimate Captain America and Dark Knight Batman. Cap wins if he defeats Batman and unmasks/arrests him, Batman wins if he knocks out Cap or otherwise incapacitates him long enough for SHIELD to admit defeat and retreat)

comicshorse
2008-08-14, 11:03 AM
Interesting:

Okay physically Cap has the edge, Bruce may be as fit as a human can be but Cap is pumped up by Super Soldier Serum. Bruce is almost certainly a better martial artist but not enough to bridge the gap in strength and speed.

Brains: Ultimate Cap. is a master tactician but still not a match for Bruce in the planning departement. Bruce has a clear edge here.

Gear: S.H.I.EL.D. gear is cutting edge but spread in several roles Bruce's is just designed to bring down people alive. Bruce has the edge again.

Gotham: Bruce's home turf advantage is clear, he knows Gotham like the back of his hand.

Sorry but it looks to me like Bruce has got this won.

I'm not sure this will come to a fight though, S.H.I.E.L.D. is still a govt. agency and answerable to politicians. Politicians who need money to get elected and who recieve campaign funds form Waynetech. Methinks Cap. will find himself reassigned pretty damn quick

Linkavitch
2008-08-14, 02:37 PM
Batman. Totally Batman. Even if Cap manages to defeat him, Bat talks him into believing his story.

Revlid
2008-08-14, 06:28 PM
I'm going to have to go with Captain America here. He's a genetically and surgically modified WWII veteran - he's survived being sent into deep-freeze, and (judging by the stunts Blonsky pulled when he was partially super-soldiered) he fully qualifies for superhuman status.

Batman, by contrast, is a highly skilled martial artist at Olympic levels of fitness, with gadgetry galore. The only advantage he really has here is the home advantage of Gotham, something that (while not likely to be removed) will be lessened by the fact that Captain America is an agent of the US Government - Gordon and the GCPD won't be backing the Bat on this one.

If it comes down to a straight fight, Cap has this in the bag. Assuming he's based off his Ultimate incarnation (as Blonsky's abilities seemed to be) he has a good chance of beating the Hulk in a fistfight. He's substantially faster, stronger, tougher, and has more stamina.

Of course, this being Batman, he'll try to avoid a straight fight - trying to spook Cap, take him down from a range, bat-ninja trickery, etc. Unfortunately, the good Captain can be considered immune to spookery, and it'll take more than a batarang to bring down a guy who can survive a kick from the Hulk. Hell, it'll take more tranqs than Batman can fit on his belt, even assuming he can fire them all at once, and hit well.

In terms of gadgetry? Batman has his glider-cape, his armour, the grappling gun, the Tumbler & Batpod, batarangs, miniature explosives, night vision, and misc.
Captain America has anything S.H.I.E.L.D, an organization with invisibility tuxedos, cells that can hold Magneto, and 'walk-through-walls' technology, can give him. Assume he has his shield (indestructible, and incredibly hard for a baseline human to lift, let alone throw), some sort of gun, his armour, and some assorted gadgets foisted upon him by S.H.I.E.L.D's techies. Again, a reminder - these are the guys who can create a planet-killing weapon by opening an interdimensional gateway to another dimension's Big Bang.
So, Captain America wins here.

Captain America is a master tactician, his planning, strategical and tactical abilities rated as 'off the scale' by General Nick Fury, a man who is generally considered the best there is at what he does.
Batman, although certainly very clever, very understanding of his opponents' mindset, and able to adapt his (already good) plans on the fly, isn't the master tactician here that he is in the comics.
Captain America wins in terms of planning.

In the end, it all comes down to who can take out who. Batman cannot take out Captain America in close combat, period. Batman cannot take out Captain America at range, unless he kills him (something he won't do). So Batman needs to outsmart Captain America, outplan him, collapse several buildings on top of him. Something which Captain America is too smart to allow to happen (more than once).
Whereas Captain America just needs a few punches or one shot (special S.H.I.E.L.D gun beats combat armour), and the fight's over.

The problem is that, in the main universes of both characters, they're about equally matched, with Batman beating Cap with his Fanboy bonus. The Nolanverse (quite rightly) nerfs Batman to realistic levels, while the Ultimateverse (and Movieverse) boosts Captain America to explicitly superhuman ones. Therefore, Cap wins.

DiscipleofBob
2008-08-16, 06:28 PM
In the given scenario, I'd say Batman would just try to evade Captain America and refuse to fight him. At the very least Nolan's Batman, when faced against another superhero, not just a misguided copycat vigilante but a full-fledged government-backed superhero, would not have any reason to engage the Cap.

I say Batman would go about his business, taking advantage of SHIELD and Captain America in the city to help capture criminals, but at the same time taking many extra precautions to avoid getting caught.

Either Captain America and SHIELD would eventually find evidence that suggested Batman was innocent and is an authentic crime-fighter, or somewhere Bruce would screw up and his identity would get revealed. At that point, Batman would hopefully have cleaned up most of Gotham and turn himself in. If not, Batman would probably break out of prison at some point to return to his crime-fighting business. At no point do I ever see Bruce as willing to inflict any sort of injury or otherwise on Captain America.

Revlid
2008-08-16, 08:57 PM
weak, un-AMERICAN justification for lack of direct victory for Captain AMERICA.

Do you know why this type of thread is called a "Vs." thread? Because it deals with two characters, and which out of them (if either) would be victorious in a competiton or battle, the conditions of which are defined by the OP.

That is why this type of thread is not called a "GUYS, THEY BOTH HEROES, WHY THEY FIGHT?" thread.

In AMERICA!

DiscipleofBob
2008-08-18, 01:08 AM
Do you know why this type of thread is called a "Vs." thread? Because it deals with two characters, and which out of them (if either) would be victorious in a competiton or battle, the conditions of which are defined by the OP.

That is why this type of thread is not called a "GUYS, THEY BOTH HEROES, WHY THEY FIGHT?" thread.

In AMERICA!

Oh, I'm sorry... I forgot that some posters refuse to allow any psychology, character depth, history, or otherwise to figure into any sort of conflict. The only relevant information is all about "OMG GUY1 IS STRONGR BCUZ HE IS STRONG AND I THINK HE COOL AND WE BE BEST FRENDS!"

See, in AMERICA I like to think on a forum I can exercise my freedom of speech to give a serious opinion on an otherwise nonsensical topic without some condescending prick telling me "LOL! THAT'S NOT FIYTING!" But silly me, pretending that these superheroes have actual minds and moralities and aren't just guys running around in spandex beating each other up for the fanbase's amusement. Far be it for me to see more in the OP's setup than simply background for fisticuffs. Your astounding eloquence and logic has left me perplexed and questioning the size of my own manhood. And while we're using Yu-Gi-Oh Abridged references to try and seem humorous, I say Captain America is no match for Batman's coattails of doom. (Cap: Rgh!) Haha! Overused internet memes are so witty. And "immune to spookery?" Is your thesaurus on meth or something?

Seriously, back off. This is the second time you've quoted me in what basically amounts to a condescending "No, you're wrong!" response, and I don't want to see a third unless you have a valid rebuttal to bring up. It's a versus thread, yes. One with an actual well thought out setup (kudos to the OP). I'll give my opinion on the outcome and if you don't like it, you can just go and sit in your little corner of the internet and bang your action figures together while I stay over here with my own opinions which I happen to find quite satisfying as they are. Now sure they might lack the simplicity of a cage match but I'll take the superheroes with the IQ's above those of professional wrestlers.

At least the preceding idiocy got me a new poster:
http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/2117/captainamericazo9.jpg





Now, in order to actually contribute to the discussion: I propose the following...

As mentioned above, I feel that it'd basically turn into a chase as Batman really doesn't have a solid reason to fight Captain America except in self-defense. What if Bruce Wayne were to say, buy off SHIELD? Maybe not directly, but SHIELD is a government agency. Who's to say that Wayne might donate some money in the right bureaucrat's pocket to go maybe handle some other world crisis right now?

Revlid
2008-08-18, 05:36 AM
Seriously, back off. This is the second time you've quoted me in what basically amounts to a condescending "No, you're wrong!" response, and I don't want to see a third unless you have a valid rebuttal to bring up. It's a versus thread, yes. One with an actual well thought out setup (kudos to the OP). I'll give my opinion on the outcome and if you don't like it, you can just go and sit in your little corner of the internet and bang your action figures together while I stay over here with my own opinions which I happen to find quite satisfying as they are. Now sure they might lack the simplicity of a cage match but I'll take the superheroes with the IQ's above those of professional wrestlers.

My sincerest apologies - there is, as they say, no sarcasm tag on the internet. I meant my post to come off as a semi-serious attempt to move the thread back to 'who would win', rather than a slack-jawed attack on your personal liberty.
I realized before posting that that wasn't entirely clear, so I added the YGO!Abridged references in order to make the tone it was to be read in clear - that of the stereotypically boisterous American (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Eagleland), impatient with this fictional diplomacy and ready to, as you put it, 'bang [his] action figures together'. I'm sorry that you took that at face value (although I can hardly blame you for doing so).

Just out of curiosity, what was the other post in which I was rude to you?


At least the preceding idiocy got me a new poster:
http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/2117/captainamericazo9.jpg

I actually quite like this. *saved*
However, if you'd like a different word - how about 'indimidation'? Or 'exploitation of superstition and cowardice, both of which are in ample supply in the criminal underworld'?


As mentioned above, I feel that it'd basically turn into a chase as Batman really doesn't have a solid reason to fight Captain America except in self-defense. What if Bruce Wayne were to say, buy off SHIELD? Maybe not directly, but SHIELD is a government agency. Who's to say that Wayne might donate some money in the right bureaucrat's pocket to go maybe handle some other world crisis right now?

See, I like this idea (far better than the previous one). What resources does Bruce Wayne/Batman have that Captain America doesn't? A secret identity, and money. Nick Fury can always use more funding, and Bruce Wayne can excuse his actions by pointing out that Gotham being under lockdown is 'bad for business'.

Finn Solomon
2008-08-19, 08:41 AM
Points to Revild for keeping things civil - let's keep it that way, ladies and gents!

I don't think Bruce Wayne could buy off Nick Fury. At one point in Ultimate Galactus he mentioned that the SHIELD budget was enough to clothe every man woman and child in the world in solid gold underpants; "Tomorrow." He might have been exaggerating, but not by much.

DiscipleofBob
2008-08-19, 09:42 AM
My sincerest apologies - there is, as they say, no sarcasm tag on the internet. I meant my post to come off as a semi-serious attempt to move the thread back to 'who would win', rather than a slack-jawed attack on your personal liberty.
I realized before posting that that wasn't entirely clear, so I added the YGO!Abridged references in order to make the tone it was to be read in clear - that of the stereotypically boisterous American (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Eagleland), impatient with this fictional diplomacy and ready to, as you put it, 'bang [his] action figures together'. I'm sorry that you took that at face value (although I can hardly blame you for doing so).

Just out of curiosity, what was the other post in which I was rude to you?

Based on the fact that there are already enough pointless flame wars on the internet, I'll go ahead and accept your apology and in turn apologize to you and anyone else I may have inadvertently offended. ((The 'other thread' was the Spider-Man VS Batman one, but your post was more eloquent there and one apology is enough for me, so it's water on the bridge as far as I'm concerned. :smallsmile:

Also, for the record, if it actually did come down to an all-out-brawl between Ultimate Captain America and Nolan's Batman, (which would inevitably happen in any sort of dramatic storyline), Batman doesn't stand a chance. If it were a different incarnation of Batman I might be able to argue in his favor, but in The Dark Knight, Bale just made Batman so whiny and emo I'm surprised he could stop cutting himself with his batarangs long enough to go stop the Joker.

However, just before Cap deals the finishing blow, inevitably Black Mask and Red Skull show up as a villain tag team.

Revlid
2008-08-19, 10:59 AM
Also, for the record, if it actually did come down to an all-out-brawl between Ultimate Captain America and Nolan's Batman, (which would inevitably happen in any sort of dramatic storyline), Batman doesn't stand a chance. If it were a different incarnation of Batman I might be able to argue in his favor, but in The Dark Knight, Bale just made Batman so whiny and emo I'm surprised he could stop cutting himself with his batarangs long enough to go stop the Joker.

Bale's Batman is angsty, yes, but I wouldn't call him whiny, and certainly not emo. He doesn't inflict his pain and anger on others (except, of course, criminals) as Bruce Wayne, he puts on a happy-go-lucky facade (with, I think, an element of truth) for them. Emos are wangsty because they want attention and have an inflated sense of self-worth. Batman is angsty because he's seriously disturbed, but channels that angst into rage against those who deserve it. The only reason he seemed particularly angsty in this film is that there was a period when any attack he made on criminals would have been counter-productive. Instead of going off anyway, he masters it, but it's still bubbling around inside him.

But, yeah, Bale can be a bit OTT, I'll give you that. It's why he needs Michael Caine to bring him back down to earth.


However, just before Cap deals the finishing blow, inevitably Black Mask and Red Skull show up as a villain tag team.

BLACK MASK!
RED SKULL!

PALETTE-SWAP HYPER FORCE... GO!

sikyon
2008-08-19, 11:39 AM
What versions are we talking here?

Ultimate Cap vs Nolan Batman?

Ultimate Cap vs DKR batman?

616 Cap vs Main continuity batman?

Nolan batman:

Weak. Loses in all situations. He's not that smart, not that tough, not that great at H2H. Because he's somewhat realistic.

Ultimate Cap: Superhuman strength, agility, endurance, etc. Tactical genius.

616 Cap: Ultimate human strength, agility, endurace, etc. Not superhuman. Tactical genius.

Main stream Batman: Peak human stats. All around genius. Vast resources.

chiasaur11
2008-08-19, 12:08 PM
What versions are we talking here?

Ultimate Cap vs Nolan Batman?

Ultimate Cap vs DKR batman?

616 Cap vs Main continuity batman?

Nolan batman:

Weak. Loses in all situations. He's not that smart, not that tough, not that great at H2H. Because he's somewhat realistic.

Ultimate Cap: Superhuman strength, agility, endurance, etc. Tactical genius.

616 Cap: Ultimate human strength, agility, endurace, etc. Not superhuman. Tactical genius.

Main stream Batman: Peak human stats. All around genius. Vast resources.

We're doing Nolan V. Ultimate.

The regular versions already fought, (Bats won) but:
1) It was Batman's turf
2) He only won due to a lucky shot
3) He barely incapacitated Cap for long enough to win. Like, 5 seconds.

So non conclusive results.
And when Busiek did it, they both stopped pretty quick to team up.

sikyon
2008-08-19, 12:12 PM
Nolan vs ultimate is no contest, in my opinion.

Ultimate cap is just too superhuman, and Nolan bats doesn't have toys good enough to stop cap. Nolan bats isn't even that spectacular in H2H.

Dode
2008-08-21, 05:20 PM
Ultimate Captain America would stomp DK Bats in a straight-out fight, no question. Like yeah Batman learned some kung-fu from a League of Assassins and that's good and all, but imagine Cap as a guy who, if he joined the Olympics, would set a world record in every single category, with the brains of Patton jammed in his skull while he does all that. A guy who waltzed through the frontlines of World War II with a metal shield, a submachine gun and grit. And Ultimate Cap doesn't have hangups about killing either, like Batman or regular Cap. Oh sure he might feel bad about snapping your neck, but odds are he'll just get over it and hump your wife. He's like Brock Lesnar in UFC only well-trained fighting against some welterweight.

That being said he's not really a stealthy guy or particularly good at tracking so all DK Batman would have to do was avoid him until he gave up and SHIELD got someone more qualified.

Hell, who am I kidding? If Ultimates SHIELD had remit to go after Batman publicly to the point where they can lock down a city they'd install a CCTV on every streetcorner Britain-style, have some satellites spying over the city and just have Cap stroll on over to Wayne Manor and go all Bane on Bats. Covert SHIELD agents, Batman-stings, every dirty trick and lure in the book (Ultimate SHIELD, Batman wouldn't be able to evade an overtly operating SHIELD.

It'd be like when Lex Luthor became POTUS in the DC universe and Batman snuck into the White House, beat up Luthor's bodyguard and told President Lex that he can have his kryptonite ring or be presdient, but not both. And then Luthor told Batman that if Batman ever tries to start anything, he'll bring down the combined resources of the NSA, CIA, FBI, Secret Service and every other intelligence agency of the United States and use them to turn over every rock until Batman and every member of the Bat-family was exposed and behind bars. Know what Batman did? Batman left with his tail between his legs, because he knew Luthor could do it. How is bringing the resources of Ultimates SHIELD down on a single city after a lone guy any different?

Really, the premise of Batman is only viable in a chaotic, lawless environment where lots of crime (and Batman) can thrive with little interference from the authorities. Replace "Commissioner Gordon and incompetent cronies" with "futuristic ultra-competent police state/global intelligence agency with trillion-dollar budget" and Batman is hosed.

Basically Batman would lose badly but the part Captain America has to play in that would be negligible.

Dhavaer
2008-08-26, 07:41 AM
I'd say Ultimate Cap is too much for Nolan Batman. If it was normal Cap or normal Bats it would be about even, if it was normal both I might give it to Batman, but Ultimate Marvel is on a whole different power scale to the Nolanverse.