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View Full Version : The Joker (Dark Knight) vs. Sephiroth.



Agrippa
2008-08-18, 05:40 PM
Also posted on Dicefreaks.

New fight, the Joker (as portrayed by the late Heath Ledger in The Dark Knight) vs. Sephiroth (no need to mention where he's from).

Somehow a mystical bridge between Gotham City and Edge City forms and the Joker and Sephiroth meet, they chat for a while, swapping what these sickos consider amusing anecdotes about the people they killed. Notably about how the Joker murdered Rachel, how Sephiroth murdered Aerith (or Aeris, whichever spelling you prefer) and joking about these killings and the anguish they caused.

They later get down to talking about their chief respective enemies/psychological chew toys, Batman and Cloud Strife. So, these two sociopathic, mass murdering masterminds decide to hold a contest, which will be the first to utterly psychologically and emotionally crush one another's chief rival. Joker targets Cloud and Sephiroth targets Batman. So, who wins the Joker or Sephiroth? The catch is, they only have two weeks to pull this off. They agreed on it.

Pink
2008-08-18, 05:46 PM
I see what you did there. At first I couldn't believe why you would dare to pit a mortal against a demigod, but this is different.

That being said, I give this to The Joker. Cloud is nowhere near the firm unyielding mind of Batman and even with two weeks, I think the joker should be able to play cloud like a fiddle, especially with Cloud's many friends to kill.

Sephy against batman? Frankly, I don't see what sephiroth could do to batman that the joker couldn't. The only difference would be that batman wouldn't stand much of a chance of stopping him. Sephiroth's main manipulation of cloud had to do with the jenova cells in cloud (Or whatever the connection is), which is an advantage he wouldn't have with batman.

So, In conclusion, a vote for the Joker.

Anteros
2008-08-18, 05:50 PM
Well...nothing the Joker could do could harm Cloud. He'd certainly destroy him mentally though. Seph could kill Batman, but I'm pretty sure that Batman would be able to last far longer than 2 weeks. He might even be able to beat Sephy...so I'm gonna say advantage Joker with a true win for neither.

Let us not contemplate the inevitable Batman+Cloud teamup.

Pink
2008-08-18, 05:55 PM
Well...nothing the Joker could do could harm Cloud. He'd certainly destroy him mentally though. Seph could kill Batman, but I'm pretty sure that Batman would be able to last far longer than 2 weeks. He might even be able to beat Sephy...so I'm gonna say advantage Joker with a true win for neither.

Let us not contemplate the inevitable Batman+Cloud teamup.

The winning condition is 'psychologically and emotionally' damaged, nothing physical. That being said, I'm sure if the joker really wanted he could somehow arrange for cloud to be in a building that would explode with all the force of stolen shinra explosives. That would probably hurt cloud somewhat...But I'm getting away from the criteria

Anteros
2008-08-18, 06:10 PM
The winning condition is 'psychologically and emotionally' damaged, nothing physical. That being said, I'm sure if the joker really wanted he could somehow arrange for cloud to be in a building that would explode with all the force of stolen shinra explosives. That would probably hurt cloud somewhat...But I'm getting away from the criteria

He'd survive it though. I missed the winning criteria though. Yeah this isn't even a contest. To be honest, Batman has more chance of breaking Seph's mind by accident than Seph does of breaking the Bat's on purpose.

EvilElitest
2008-08-18, 06:37 PM
well in terms of phycological fighting, Seph really doesn't have anything to offer, and cloud has no real defense so...
from
EE

Mr.Silver
2008-08-18, 06:50 PM
The Joker, hands down. You all saw what he did to Harvey, and if he's given a guy with as many emotional weak spots as Cloud then he'd have a field day. Sephiroth, by contrast, is not particularly subtle or skilled at this and is up against Batman. He's doomed to lose this one from the get-go.

Frosty
2008-08-18, 06:54 PM
Yeah this one is too easy. A BETTER contest would be between the Joker and Maester Seymour from FF10. Can Seymour crush Batman emotional before the Joker can crush Tidus's insecure self?

Agrippa
2008-08-18, 06:58 PM
well in terms of phycological fighting, Seph really doesn't have anything to offer, and cloud has no real defense so...
from
EE

So Joker wins by a mile. Joker stories are told through out all Edge City and people shudder and weep in terror when they hear his name. Young children and some teenagers and adults, have nightmares about both Sephiroth and this Joker. Mostly about the Joker, because of exactly how he terrorized them. The Joker then tells Sephiroth exactly what he did to torment Cloud giving the pretentious demi-god nightmares. And all of Edge City watches in shock as Sephiroth falls to his knees and laughs maniacally before screaming in horror for days on end.

Raiser Blade
2008-08-18, 07:17 PM
Better contest! Joker vs. Jigsaw.

They both play mind games and set traps for people. In a 1 vs. 1 battle of psychological warfare and physical torture who wins?

Thufir
2008-08-18, 07:24 PM
So Joker wins by a mile. Joker stories are told through out all Edge City and people shudder and weep in terror when they hear his name. Young children and some teenagers and adults, have nightmares about both Sephiroth and this Joker. Mostly about the Joker, because of exactly how he terrorized them. The Joker then tells Sephiroth exactly what he did to torment Cloud giving the pretentious demi-god nightmares. And all of Edge City watches in shock as Sephiroth falls to his knees and laughs maniacally before screaming in horror for days on end.

Actually, I think more likely they would watch as Sephiroth ran the Joker through, then carried out whatever plan he had at the time with no Cloud to stop him.

To be honest, I think the most likely outcome of this contest is Sephiroth gets bored and kills Batman rather than bothering with the psychological stuff. Meanwhile the Joker begins to break Cloud psychologically... but if at any point this involves them meeting in person Cloud likely kills him in a fit of rage at some other part of it. Neither wins.

Pink
2008-08-18, 07:38 PM
Meanwhile the Joker begins to break Cloud psychologically... but if at any point this involves them meeting in person Cloud likely kills him in a fit of rage at some other part of it.

The Joker has ways of getting people to not kill him if that's what he wants (In batman's case he'd be all to happy to die if it proved strait murder for the dark knight). Whether it's "If you kill me know, You'll also set off the bomb that'll kill tifa right now" Or any other sort've thing, I think the Joker could hold his own.

For that matter, if Batman wanted to hide from sephy, I think he would be able to do a very good job of it. It's a shame that sephhy doesn't have an identifiable weakness, because otherwise I would actually give a fight to batman possibly, given that Bruce had enough to to prepare and create the proper items. (Hey, he beat superman with enough preparation.)

However overall I do agree with the run joker through thing, but hey, this is a vs. thread, we suspend those kinda toughts. For that matter, how would sephiroth be corporeal at the time to do this? I think He should still be considered dead.

Mr. Scaly
2008-08-18, 07:41 PM
Is Sephiroth even good at that sort of thing? Sure he scarred Cloud but from what I hear all he did was kill Aeris in front of his face...

Selrahc
2008-08-18, 07:41 PM
Hmmm... I don't know.

I think Batman would be pretty psychologically shaken if a madman rips Gotham to shreds, and there is absolutely nothing he can do about it. The Batman Begins/Dark Knight Batman has no superman to call on for back up, and Sephiroth doesn't really have a convenient weakness to exploit, in the much lower power movie world, Batman can't just grab a gadget to defeat Sephiroth.

If Sephiroth starts killing in Gotham, and keeps killing, if he taunts Batman and makes it clear that there is nothing he can do to prevent him destroying everything Batman stands for... got to be pretty jarring for Bats. In the No Mans Land saga in the comics Batman was presented with something which turned the city into anarchy, and destroyed law and order. It was a pretty bad time even for the indomitable Batman. Add on the more personal aspects that Sephiroth would bring in, and it would be a pretty nasty experience for Batman over those two weeks.

Wheras Joker versus Cloud... I'm just not sure what he can do that would really get to Cloud. He pretty much keeps everyone he cares about in a small mobile group roaming around a giant area at high speeds. Hes too tough to be defeating Cloud and his party, which rules out torture or other mindgames on people Cloud cares about. So hes pretty much just stuck killing random civilians in gruesome ways and planting bombs? Killing Clouds minor aquaintances? Add in the fact that there are loads of people in Final Fantasy VII that could beat the Joker...

Joker is much much much cooler, but I don't think he wins this.

Sholos
2008-08-18, 11:44 PM
The question here is, "What can Sephiroth/Joker do to Batman/Cloud?"

Let's take the first pairing.

Sephiroth could simply go on a killing spree. And when Sephiroth goes on a killing spree, he doesn't do it lightly. He's pretty gruesome about it, too. He could target people like Gordon and other public servants, telling Batman exactly when he was going to kill the person just so Batman would know there was nothing he could do about it. I'm not sure how Batman would take not being able to do anything.

Now, the second pairing.

I'm really not sure what Joker can do that would actually hurt Cloud. There's no way Joker is going to be able to do anything to anyone in Cloud's party. They're all way too powerful for Joker to even think about taking, and anyone powerful enough to do anything isn't going to take orders from the Joker. So the Joker is pretty much left to random destruction, and I think that all that will do is anger Cloud. Cloud will then proceed to find the Joker and stomp him flat. If he even puts that much effort.

So, I have to vote for Sephiroth for having somewhat of a possibility of hurting Batman.

chiasaur11
2008-08-19, 12:01 AM
The question here is, "What can Sephiroth/Joker do to Batman/Cloud?"

Let's take the first pairing.

Sephiroth could simply go on a killing spree. And when Sephiroth goes on a killing spree, he doesn't do it lightly. He's pretty gruesome about it, too. He could target people like Gordon and other public servants, telling Batman exactly when he was going to kill the person just so Batman would know there was nothing he could do about it. I'm not sure how Batman would take not being able to do anything.

Now, the second pairing.

I'm really not sure what Joker can do that would actually hurt Cloud. There's no way Joker is going to be able to do anything to anyone in Cloud's party. They're all way too powerful for Joker to even think about taking, and anyone powerful enough to do anything isn't going to take orders from the Joker. So the Joker is pretty much left to random destruction, and I think that all that will do is anger Cloud. Cloud will then proceed to find the Joker and stomp him flat. If he even puts that much effort.

So, I have to vote for Sephiroth for having somewhat of a possibility of hurting Batman.


Ah, here we visit the eternal question:
What kinda stats do ordinary citizens have?

OOO... Sephiroth in the final battle is scaled to player levels, right?

If so, Bats would kick his butt.

And if not, there's the old favorite video game tactic of the death of a thousand cuts. If Batman has anything that can hurt Sephiroth, the long haired katana weilding mama's boy is going down, slow and steady.
I mean, if nothing else, we got tank shells.

CannibalHymn
2008-08-19, 12:40 AM
The Joker doesn't need to kill or harm anyone to get to Cloud's psyche, is the thing. He just needs to talk. Cloud is a pile of pathos hiding behind a big sword. Whether you like the character or hate him, he hasn't ever been mentally firm, and his crippling psychological weaknesses only grow as his life progresses. Any single failure in his past, Aeris' death, failing the SOLDIER entrance exam, getting shot down by a girl in junior high, whatever, the Joker can take the tiniest or biggest wound and twist a knife in it until Cloud is catatonic from his emotional angst. Again, knowing the Joker, he's going to have something keeping Cloud from killing him. Cloud isn't hard to manipulate.

I think Sephiroth cutting down Gotham wouldn't be half as hard for Batman to take as the way the Joker did it. Because, with the Joker, it's hardly ever the Joker destroying Gotham as much as it is Gotham destroying itself, with guidance/incentives from the Joker. A bad guy killing people for two weeks is pretty bad, but Batman's dealt with it. Your friends, people you trust, the people you're trying to protect, a person you deeply look up to, killing each other is much more psychologically shaking.

In short, the Final Fantasy universe lacks the intellectual finesse offensively and defensively to combat two characters who are all about intellectual finesse at a psychological battle. Sephiroth and Cloud both fail to understand there are worse things than a loved one being killed, which means Sephiroth will never be able to get to Batman any deeper than the Joker could, and Cloud will never be able to handle the assault of the Joker.

GoC
2008-08-19, 04:10 AM
Well...nothing the Joker could do could harm Cloud.

AK-47 to the head?
That'll kill him or he can use large bombs and lure Cloud into going near one (this would work even by comic book physics).


To be honest, I think the most likely outcome of this contest is Sephiroth gets bored and kills Batman rather than bothering with the psychological stuff.

Are we talking about the Batman who takes on the entire Justice League? Or the one from the film?
If the former then Batman will go out in an overpowered battlesuit to fight Sephiroth and probably kill him with AoE attacks like poison gas.

Zeta Kai
2008-08-19, 09:41 AM
I'd like to note that the Joker has another much-overlooked power: he has the obnoxious habit of coming back from the dead. Falling off a building, blown up in an explosion, eaten by sharks, he's always come back for more fun. It's not an explicit ability, like eye-lasers or bone-claws, but it cannot be discounted; killing the Joker isn't as easy at it would appear.

As for the Joker-vs-Tidus thing, I'd say (from a certain point of view, at least) that Tidus is pretty much invincible. He's a dream of the fayth, so how can he die? The Joker probably wouldn't make much headway on Tidus personally, although the inevitable collateral damage would probably ruin Spira's chances of throwing off the yolk of Sin.

Freshmeat
2008-08-19, 10:04 AM
I think it mostly depends on how much of a match these people are to their adversaries.

It's already been established that Sephiroth probably outclasses Batman. He might not be quite as good as messing someone up psychologically, but then again... remember what happened when Bane broke Batman's back?
Now consider what someone like Sephiroth could do. It's a brutish way, but it's not necessarily ineffective.

The Joker vs. Cloud... I'm not too sure about this one. FFverse and Batmanverse are really a world of difference. Sephiroth is someone who can take world-shattering spells to the face and still live. Considering that Cloud defeated Sephiroth, I wouldn't know what kind of threat the Joker could pose to Cloud or to any of his loved ones. Tifa, Barret, Cid, Yuffie and Co... all of these could easily defeat a crazy with a machinegun. The Joker is going to have to get really creative and resourceful to put Cloud in a position where the Joker might do anything that would psychologically harm Cloud.

Of course, both Cloud and Bats are psychologically messed up (with Bats coming out stronger and Cloud being well, rather pathetic at times). Still, while Joker vs. Cloud might be arguable, I definitely think Sephiroth is not to be underestimated here.

Zaphrasz
2008-08-19, 10:57 AM
Depends on which Batman. Movie Batman is absurdly impressive within a real world context, but he has never dealt with magic. Justice League Batman takes on cosmic level horrors through sheer force of will.

There isn't much movie Batman can do against Sephiroth. He would have to plan for some ridiculous series of events to take place in order to beat Sephiroth. Meanwhile, Sephiroth is killing half of Gotham. The only advantage Batman could possibly have is that Sephiroth can't just kill him. If he can keep his sanity long enough to plan something spectacular, he wins. Overall, that just isn't likely, so Sephiroth (much as I hate to admit it) breaks Batman.

Justice League Batman is a whole different story. Assuming he can't just call on Superman or Green Lantern to take Sephiroth out in nine seconds, he has tech available to him that will allow him to plan something much more easily. Sephiroth could manage this one, but Batman is more likely to come out fine.

As for Cloud, he is an emotional wreck. All Joker needs to do is not put himself at risk, because if he ends up fighting Cloud, he loses, since Cloud has no problem killing. He needs to do the sort of sadistic choice gambit he pulled in the movie, and make it so that Cloud can't afford to kill him. Take out a few loved ones, highlight Cloud's failures, point out how a man in clown makeup was all it took, and Cloud goes crazy.

The contest is how quickly the respective villains can break their targets. Joker does it much faster and with far more style. He wins, but not because Batman can necessarily handle Sephiroth.

GoC
2008-08-19, 11:00 AM
It's already been established that Sephiroth probably outclasses Batman. He might not be quite as good as messing someone up psychologically, but then again... remember what happened when Bane broke Batman's back?
I've settled on the theory that in DC comics there are currently two Batmans.
One fights the Joker, Two Face and Poison Ivy; he's generaly short sighted, is mediocre at physical confrontations and does really stupid things a lot.
Then there's the Justice League member who fights Darkseid; he's someone who knows everything about anything and anyone and secretly controls the world, he never enters a fight without being near certain of victory, is always crazy prepared and is so skilled at battle tactics and martial arts that he can take on even some mid-level metas.


Tifa, Barret, Cid, Yuffie and Co... all of these could easily defeat a crazy with a machinegun.
Remove their charcter shields (and introduce some common sense into their crazy world) and it only takes ONE lucky crazy to kill them and apparently the Joker has an unlimited source of them.


The Joker is going to have to get really creative and resourceful to put Cloud in a position where the Joker might do anything that would psychologically harm Cloud.

What was wrong with bombs?:smallconfused:


There isn't much movie Batman can do against Sephiroth. He would have to plan for some ridiculous series of events to take place in order to beat Sephiroth. Meanwhile, Sephiroth is killing half of Gotham.
I think Sephiroth is too arrogant to just kill a few thousand and then lay low when the army moves in. He'd probably try to confront them and unlike his normal opponents they're not going to give him time to make a speach, charge his attack or show off his cool moves, they'll just riddle him with bullets, bombs and tank rounds (ouch!) the second he shows himself on a tall building (as he enjoys doing).
Heck, even typical SWAT teams can kill him and doesn't DC have a team specifically for dealing with metas?
He stays still in between bursts of speed for up to a second and most decently trained people could put one between his eyes in that time.

Selrahc
2008-08-19, 11:17 AM
What was wrong with bombs?

Kind of depends on what power level you view Final Fantasy characters as. But I would have thought that they were fairly powerful meta humans. In the games stuff like bombs and machineguns don't do horrendous ammounts of damage, and they can easily tank powerful magic like Firaga and stuff.(Bear in mind here, I didn't really like FF VII, and most of this stuff is from FF IX and X.)

At the end of the game, the characters are capable of taking on gods. City destroying gods. They're shooting giant meteors, summoning up gods, and defeating foes that have destroyed armies.

Cloud is cloned from an interstellar crazy alien capable of surviving a meteor impact, and still terrorizing the world. Hes got empowering him bits of rock that are made of magic and empower their wearers. He has access to potions that can bring back people from the brink of death. His friends are creatures like cyborgs, cat monsters, god summoners and shapeshifting vampires. He routinely defeats creatures that can destroy armies(The weapons). And is generally just a demigod level of power.

Do you really think a kilo of TNT is going to take him out?

Steven the Lich
2008-08-19, 11:23 AM
I have to hand this to Sephiroth. Why? I do not doubt the Jokers skills and coolness from the movie, but Sephiroth has several things bat man never had. Starting off with Masamune... Cutting through building debris like it was butter. He also has magic of wide area affect (Fire 3, Bolt 3, and others, I'm sure). Before stabbing Aeris, he tried to get Cloud to kill her (I played the game, and went through a phase of swinging the sword around pointlessly, I now realize that is you fighting Sephiroths will). And you know what? Sephiroth is insane as the Joker... Okay, maybe not that insane, but he is insane to a serious degree. Try... Destroy the world in a plan to make himself a powerful being by being in the center of the life stream movement to heal the world (Crazy enough to work) crazy. He is rediculosly strong too. I saw the Midgar serpent on a stake.
This is not a matter of how one can affect the other's enemy, this seems to be more of the "How can an insane guy affect an already insane guy?"
Where is Joker going to hide when Sephiroth summons meteor? How is he going to break Sephiroth? How can he kill him? I can't see how.

However, I don't know the movie Joker as well as most people, since I never watched the movie... Much to my regret.However, saying that the Joker can win against what people in the FF universe call "The Perfect Monster" is a bit of a stretch to me.

GoC
2008-08-19, 11:24 AM
Kind of depends on what power level you view Final Fantasy characters as. But I would have thought that they were fairly powerful meta humans. In the games stuff like bombs and machineguns don't do horrendous ammounts of damage, and they can easily tank powerful magic like Firaga and stuff.(Bear in mind here, I didn't really like FF VII, and most of this stuff is from FF IX and X.)

At the end of the game, the characters are capable of taking on gods. City destroying gods. They're shooting giant meteors, summoning up gods, and defeating foes that have destroyed armies.

Cloud is cloned from an interstellar crazy alien capable of surviving a meteor impact, and still terrorizing the world. Hes got empowering him bits of rock that are made of magic and empower their wearers. He has access to potions that can bring back people from the brink of death. His friends are creatures like cyborgs, cat monsters, god summoners and shapeshifting vampires. He routinely defeats creatures that can destroy armies(The weapons). And is generally just a demigod level of power.

Do you really think a kilo of TNT is going to take him out?

I was considering Advent Children which does not display this level of power.
A kilo is too little but a couple of TONS should be more than sufficient.

One thing that's annoying about vs. threads is how people use the word "gods". Gods range in power from omnipotent galaxy crushing monstrosities to creatures barely capable of killing well-trained but ordinary humans so describing someone as a god tells us nothing.
btw: Are Tifa and the rest also weird clone people?

EDIT: If what you say is true about the FF game-verse then Sauron and Link should never have stood a chance! Stupid EvilElitest...:smallannoyed:

Selrahc
2008-08-19, 11:46 AM
I was considering Advent Children which does not display this level of power.

Never seen it.



One thing that's annoying about vs. threads is how people use the word "gods". Gods range in power from omnipotent galaxy crushing monstrosities to creatures barely capable of killing well-trained but ordinary humans.


Well I did give the context of city destroying, army crushing gods.



btw: Are Tifa and the rest also weird clone people?
Well all of them are I imagine empowered by materia.
I think Tifa is a product of AVALANCHE super soldier technology, coupled with the effects of Materia. Same with Cid.
Baret is a similar but also has some cyborg stuff going on.
Red XIII is a big magic lion.
Cait Sith is a robot.
Vincent is a shapeshifting vampire(Who is incidentally, fully capable of tanking firepower from stuff like helicopter gunships in his own game)
Yuffie is a magic ninja.



If what you say is true about the FF game-verse then Sauron and Link should never have stood a chance! Stupid EvilElitest...

I agree. In Final Fantasy the power level is over the top, most of the time. The bosses you fight at the end destroy armies at the beginning. In Final Fantasy X for example, Sin destroys two giant armies set up to kill him. Not medieval armies or anything, these guys have enslaved giant magical creatures, they've built a gigantic cannon, they've got airships and soldiers and all kinds of stuff. And Sin beats them down, fairly easily. Later on you destroy him, on your own. Similar stuff happens in FFIX(Some big cities get destroyed, and you beat down the thing responsible)

EDIT:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxC90UxklQM Probably only need to watch the last ten seconds. Big dragon attacks a city. Your characters defend it. Then an even bigger enemy shows up, and wrecks things for you. Your characters escape, and then the city gets destroyed. Later on you beat up that thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHnBrU3EV2k&feature=related Sin getting shot by a big magic cannon and winning. Later on in the game you kill Sin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czSLOCYSqnE&feature=related Sin wiping out some village.

Sholos
2008-08-19, 01:11 PM
Again, I'll ask how Joker is going to affect anyone that Cloud truly cares about. Everyone that includes is way above Joker's power level. There's no way for Joker to actually affect anyone.

Meanwhile, Sephiroth is going to laugh at any mere army to come against him. They can try shooting him, and he might even let the live for a few minutes for a bit of fun. Then he's going to rain death and destruction on their heads.

GoC
2008-08-19, 01:24 PM
Well I did give the context of city destroying, army crushing gods.
That could indicate effects that hit wide areas but do (relatively) little damage to each area.



I agree. In Final Fantasy the power level is over the top, most of the time. The bosses you fight at the end destroy armies at the beginning. In Final Fantasy X for example, Sin destroys two giant armies set up to kill him. Not medieval armies or anything, these guys have enslaved giant magical creatures, they've built a gigantic cannon, they've got airships and soldiers and all kinds of stuff. And Sin beats them down, fairly easily. Later on you destroy him, on your own. Similar stuff happens in FFIX(Some big cities get destroyed, and you beat down the thing responsible)

EDIT:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxC90UxklQM Probably only need to watch the last ten seconds. Big dragon attacks a city. Your characters defend it. Then an even bigger enemy shows up, and wrecks things for you. Your characters escape, and then the city gets destroyed. Later on you beat up that thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHnBrU3EV2k&feature=related Sin getting shot by a big magic cannon and winning. Later on in the game you kill Sin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czSLOCYSqnE&feature=related Sin wiping out some village.
Impressive. I doubt they could destroy a modern earth army though.

GoC
2008-08-19, 01:28 PM
Again, I'll ask how Joker is going to affect anyone that Cloud truly cares about. Everyone that includes is way above Joker's power level. There's no way for Joker to actually affect anyone.

Meanwhile, Sephiroth is going to laugh at any mere army to come against him. They can try shooting him, and he might even let the live for a few minutes for a bit of fun. Then he's going to rain death and destruction on their heads.

You have no clue about the firepower available to a modern army do you?

Pink
2008-08-19, 01:39 PM
Again, I'll ask how Joker is going to affect anyone that Cloud truly cares about. Everyone that includes is way above Joker's power level. There's no way for Joker to actually affect anyone.

Meanwhile, Sephiroth is going to laugh at any mere army to come against him. They can try shooting him, and he might even let the live for a few minutes for a bit of fun. Then he's going to rain death and destruction on their heads.

Most likely, strike when they're asleep. The joker is not going to just charge in, he's going to be subtle, use poisons, distractions, etc. That, and they're more impressive on small group vs. one big guy or one small group. If the joker was able to get together a small army to fire at them all at once he'd likely be able to do some good damage too. (What the odds are that he'd be able to do this within two weeks are...)

In any event, if he captures them in their sleep or some other reasonably smart way, it's shown that they can actually be retained with fairly normal bonds (provided there isn't a key lying around that they can reach.). From there it's a matter of holding them hostage.

Moff Chumley
2008-08-19, 02:18 PM
Would a sniper rifle shot to the head kill one of Cloud's less robotic friends? How about a rocket? I think that we're talking common sense here, not what Cloud's posse is capable of.

Selrahc
2008-08-19, 02:50 PM
Impressive. I doubt they could destroy a modern earth army though.

Because of bunkers and aeroplanes and things? I think stuff on the ground would be wiped out.

And those things look like they are about as damaging as the biggest non nuclear explosives. If the government has to use explosives on the scale of the MOAB on an urban area to take down a lone psycho then thats a pretty bad day for them. And a very bad day for Batman if his own government levels his hometown because he couldn't stop the villain.


You have no clue about the firepower available to a modern army do you?

Bear in mind, Vincent a character in the party for FFVII can take down multiple helicopter gunships at once, one of the most powerful things the army can bring to bear without annihilating vast areas of the city.

Sephiroth is much more powerful than Vincent.



Would a sniper rifle shot to the head kill one of Cloud's less robotic friends? How about a rocket? I think that we're talking common sense here, not what Cloud's posse is capable of.

Well common sense isn't how superhumans operate. These beings are beyond human, because of a combination of magic and science. So sniping them in the head probably wouldn't work, any more than hitting them with swords the size of busses works.

Freshmeat
2008-08-19, 02:56 PM
I really think the problem lies in determining just how powerful FFverse is, and deciding whether we'll go by Advent Children or by the game, and how much each of these show the strengths and weaknesses of the characters involved.

I don't think characters in Final Fantasy really have any type of realistic weaknesses. Right at the start of the game, Cloud already takes machinegun fire like it's nobody's business, it's revealed that Barret has an actual cannon/minigun for an arm, grenades barely do any damage and Cloud generally beats up various types of ranged combatants, including robots, using nothing but a sword. That's just at level 1.

Cloud is not weak. A machinegun to the face will not kill him, unless the plot demands it. Technically, a simple hoodlum could kill Batman too, by just shooting him in the eye. But fantasy/comic book physics don't work that way.
If The Knights of the Round Table spell, a force which comes from a distant universe and crushes several planets, including the sun and probably a few solar systems along the way simply gets... absorbed by a demi-god Sephiroth who just shrugs off the kind of attack that would obliterate the entire planet, it's probably safe to say that there's little the army could do to stop Cloud, who defeated Sephiroth one-on-one. Surely not the Joker with a machinegun and some explosives. I'm aware that this isn't so much a battle as psychological warfare, but to Cloud, the Joker is little more than an ant.

As for the Joker poisoning people... I suppose that could work, but it'd still be very difficult. There are some ridiculously nasty poisons in Final Fantasy VII. The type of poisons that could kill hundreds of regular people in seconds.
Cloud and Co? They'd barely notice.


Would a sniper rifle shot to the head kill one of Cloud's less robotic friends? How about a rocket? I think that we're talking common sense here, not what Cloud's posse is capable of.

Unless the plot demands it, he'd survive. I suppose the same would apply to Batman.


Personally, I think these universes are just way too different to compare them properly. The source material is also wildly contradictive.
Sephiroth and and Cloud are insane in FFVII. In Advent Children they... well, they're still pretty damn high-powered (just look at that final battle!) but decidedly less so (or so it would seem, at least). Conversely, Batman has been portrayed as both a local vigilante who deals with a few costumed loons, to an epic guardian that protects the world against completely superpowered entities. And the Joker ranges from a random terrorist with a clown motif to the ultimate boogeyman.

Yeah, arguing about this is going to be difficult. :smallfrown:

Zaphrasz
2008-08-19, 03:54 PM
Cloud is the guy who once said "There isn't anything I don't care about." He has a lot to lose, whether it be his friends, innocents, or the planet itself. Most of Cloud's friends aren't terribly impressive either.

Yeah, if the Joker runs into Cloud, he has to get the heck out of there. Joker is smart, but he is no superhuman. If Cloud can corner him or surprise him, it could well be over unless Joker does some fast talking. Granted, I don't believe much of the combat in Final Fantasy should be taken literally (Barret can't actually take machine gun fire to the face. It's a gameplay element) but the our clown friend isn't too impressive physically.

Pink
2008-08-19, 04:06 PM
As for the Joker poisoning people... I suppose that could work, but it'd still be very difficult. There are some ridiculously nasty poisons in Final Fantasy VII. The type of poisons that could kill hundreds of regular people in seconds.
Cloud and Co? They'd barely notice.

I admire your statement that this truly is something quite hard to determine a winner from, let alone compare. However this point at least I need to argue. Cloud of Co. are still rather vulnerable to poisons If i recall. Cloud was taken out of comission for a reasonably long time due to mako poisoning (Admittedly a high dosage and a highly toxic poison, but still he's pretty much the most godlike of the group so it's relevant that even he can be brought low). Tifa would've died in the poison gas chamber if she wasn't able to do that hold breath thing and grab key to escape trick. For the most part, the group are humans and would pretty much die from a good poison, those with higher resistance would possibly be Cloud, Vincent and Red (Because he's...different).

What's more they're clearly not immune to things like sleep inducing drugs and other things (status effects) That the joker could use to bring them low and make them hostages if they're taken unawares (Which is what he does.). Now I'm not going to say anything about whether the joker could stand much of a chance of hurting cloud. But this isn't about physically hurting cloud, but mentally and emotionally. And as long as the Joker isn't stupid and actually faces cloud without a back-up to ensure his safety, the Joker would definately wear down cloud's mental capacity.

So I argue that the Joker is definately capable of winning, and even within the two weeks. Whether sephiroth is also capable, I'm not touching, because that's a situation where actual fighting and stuff may come into play, and it's probably inconclusive to try and compare that.

GoC
2008-08-19, 05:55 PM
Because of bunkers and aeroplanes and things? I think stuff on the ground would be wiped out.

And those things look like they are about as damaging as the biggest non nuclear explosives. If the government has to use explosives on the scale of the MOAB on an urban area to take down a lone psycho then thats a pretty bad day for them. And a very bad day for Batman if his own government levels his hometown because he couldn't stop the villain.
Agreed.


Bear in mind, Vincent a character in the party for FFVII can take down multiple helicopter gunships at once, one of the most powerful things the army can bring to bear without annihilating vast areas of the city.
They are one of the most powerful yes, but they don't have the most firepower, that distinction belongs to armor piercing tank rounds and bombs carried by fighter-bombers.

How exactly did he destroy these gunships? Did the writers Do Their Research? Or is this another case of game mechanics/badass requirement taking precedence over realism?


Personally, I think these universes are just way too different to compare them properly. The source material is also wildly contradictive.
Sephiroth and and Cloud are insane in FFVII. In Advent Children they... well, they're still pretty damn high-powered (just look at that final battle!) but decidedly less so (or so it would seem, at least). Conversely, Batman has been portrayed as both a local vigilante who deals with a few costumed loons, to an epic guardian that protects the world against completely superpowered entities. And the Joker ranges from a random terrorist with a clown motif to the ultimate boogeyman.

Yeah, arguing about this is going to be difficult. :smallfrown:
What he said.

btw: I don't think there is any character in an rpg who can survive a nuke without complete immunity to the damage types it deals. The amount of damage in D&D terms is 2000000d6 for an average sized US nuke IIRC.
Even the main characters from Chrono Trigger die many times over to that.

Selrahc
2008-08-19, 06:25 PM
How exactly did he destroy these gunships? Did the writers Do Their Research? Or is this another case of game mechanics/badass requirement taking precedence over realism?

Well you can judge for yourself http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdvuwBXPfMI&feature=related (About 3minutes 30 for him destroying the gunship)

The gunships were fairly common enemies in game(Or at least.. in the demo). He fights multiple at once at one point IIRC.


btw: I don't think there is any character in an rpg who can survive a nuke without complete immunity to the damage types it deals. The amount of damage in D&D terms is 2000000d6 for an average sized US nuke IIRC.
Even the main characters from Chrono Trigger die many times over to that.

Well a character from Scion could tank it without even being a demigod. Solipsism for the win. I guess that kind of falls under immunity to damage though...

Sholos
2008-08-19, 07:31 PM
Two things:

If the army has to be called in to try to deal with Sephiroth, there's going to be major damage to the city of Gotham. Like, nobody-can-live-here-anymore damage. I think it would be pretty scarring to Batman if Gotham was wiped off the map, and I'm still not convinced that that would actually take care of Sephiroth. I just know that they'd haev to resort to that level fo destruction to try.

Secondly, I think Cloud is much stronger mentally now than he was during FFVII. He's beaten Sephiroth twice, and he knows that Aeris doesn't blame him one bit for what's happened. The two main (you could say only) sources of his mental problems are behind him.

Anteros
2008-08-19, 08:44 PM
1. GoC. If a character is capable of surviving world destroying explostions, a gunship, or even a nuke is not going to effect them. I agree that it's unrealistic and silly, but you can't pretend like it's not part of the character just because it's inconvenient to your point. Give it up.

2. People need to stop pretending that Cloud doesn't care about anyone but his own party members. I recall quite a few little kids in the game that Cloud is fond of. Barrett even has a daughter. The joker is not going to ignore the easy targets and go for the tank killing vampire monstrosity, so stop pretending like he will.

chiasaur11
2008-08-19, 11:14 PM
Also, breaking Batman is HARD. Not impossible, sure, but if Gotham is burning, he won't quit while he has obvious target. At least not in two weeks. Plus, almost every good target but Alfred (who, dollars to doughnuts Sephiroth wouldn't be smart enough to figure out about) his current list of extra damage targets is zero. All he can do is make a random mess, and if Batman couldn't live through THAT for two weeks, well, he ain't half the hero he seems to be.

Oh, somewhat off topic, but if the target was Gordon, then The Joker would have it made. Gordon's unbreakable.

CannibalHymn
2008-08-19, 11:15 PM
I'm pretty sure a lot of people didn't read the OP, this isn't about a physical confrontation, especially not between the Joker and Sephiroth. It's about which can do more mental damage to the other's main opponent.

The main arguments for the Final Fantasy all have to deal with brute force; the Joker isn't powerful enough to kill anyone Cloud is friends with, Sephiroth could kill everyone Batman is friends with, Cloud/Sephiroth could just kill The Joker/Batman. While most of this stuff is pretty true, I think it's definitely irrelevant, and also not really in the spirit of the competition.

The reason it isn't relevant is because the Joker doesn't need to kill Cloud's friends to drive him crazy. He can use what's already happened to Cloud to manipulate him. If it had been the mob, nothing to do with the Joker, who killed Dent's girlfriend, ther Joker's amazing Hannibal Lecture would have caused just as much OMG PSYCHOTIC DUALISM FETISH! as him organizing it did. In this instance, he organized it to be sure it happened. In the FF-verse, he can just use failures that already happened to Cloud. He doesn't need new wounds, just to properly use old ones, which he's amazing at. While Cloud could just flip out and kill him, I think that's the part that's not reall yin the spirit of the competition. Even besides, I sincerely doubt the Joker would have much difficulty talking Cloud into not killing him one way or the other. To the main-sources-of-Cloud's-angst-are-behind him comment, that's all well and good. When the Joker gets his hands one him, change that "are" to a "were", because they will come right back into the foreground, worse than ever.

The reason Sephiroth's ability to kill Batman or even Gotham is irrelevant is because killing those close to Batman makes him mad and more brooding than before, but it's been shown throughout a pretty long expanse of time that it won't break him. Not only could he probably come up with some Deus Ex Machina type plan to save the city, even if he couldn't, watching an evil guy kill a lot of people is less psychologically traumatizing than watching theoretically good people kill each other. It's just like the Joker says about the status quo. This is something Sephiroth will never understand. His methods are just too straightforward to break through the shield of crazy pathos Batman already has built up.

In short, using physical abillities or "he could just kill him with the power of a thousand demi-gods sucking planets up in their milk-shake straws" arguments is not fitting for what is essentially a mental competition, and the fact that such simplistic violence is the main psychological weapon of Final Fantasy shows how mentally shallow its competitors are, and thus how outgunned they are in a battle of mental strength.

Dervag
2008-08-19, 11:25 PM
Given the way this fight is stacked up, the Joker is very likely to win. He's good at psychological warfare, and Batman is a very tough target.

In short, the Joker spends all his time going up against the very best in the business of "hard to break mentally." He's had a lot of practice on tougher targets than Cloud.

chiasaur11
2008-08-19, 11:28 PM
Given the way this fight is stacked up, the Joker is very likely to win. He's good at psychological warfare, and Batman is a very tough target.

In short, the Joker spends all his time going up against the very best in the business of "hard to break mentally." He's had a lot of practice on tougher targets than Cloud.

Yup. The Commissioner is a hard man to break.

Batman, still tough, but notably less so.

Sholos
2008-08-20, 01:26 AM
1. GoC. If a character is capable of surviving world destroying explostions, a gunship, or even a nuke is not going to effect them. I agree that it's unrealistic and silly, but you can't pretend like it's not part of the character just because it's inconvenient to your point. Give it up.

2. People need to stop pretending that Cloud doesn't care about anyone but his own party members. I recall quite a few little kids in the game that Cloud is fond of. Barrett even has a daughter. The joker is not going to ignore the easy targets and go for the tank killing vampire monstrosity, so stop pretending like he will.

True, but I don't think Cloud will become catatonic just because the Joker goes after the kids. That'll just make Cloud angry. And then Cloud will hunt him down. One of the reasons noone was willing to help Batman against the Joker is because they knew that whatever Batman would do to them, he wouldn't kill them. Cloud will, thus he'll have an easier time finding Joker.

I would also point out that the Joker has no means of knowing about Cloud's past, and thus no ammo to throw at him from that area. Unless we're giving the Joker that knowledge, and in that case I think it only fair to tell Sephiroth a few things about Batman.

Also, the Joker broke Batman in a few days. Bruce was at that press conference to turn himself in. The only reason Batman continued to exist was because of Dent. It wasn't Bruce's fortitude, it was Dent's desire to see the Joker brought in.

Pink
2008-08-20, 01:31 AM
True, but I don't think Cloud will become catatonic just because the Joker goes after the kids. That'll just make Cloud angry. And then Cloud will hunt him down. One of the reasons noone was willing to help Batman against the Joker is because they knew that whatever Batman would do to them, he wouldn't kill them. Cloud will, thus he'll have an easier time finding Joker.

Will he though? That sounds pretty evil for Cloud.


I would also point out that the Joker has no means of knowing about Cloud's past, and thus no ammo to throw at him from that area. Unless we're giving the Joker that knowledge, and in that case I think it only fair to tell Sephiroth a few things about Batman.

I believe it's mentioned in the OP that Joker and Sephy both share quite alot of information about their accomplishments, so both do have that knowledge. The difference is, Sephy probably won't make much use of that knowledge, to the Joker it's an awesome weapon.

Sholos
2008-08-20, 01:33 AM
Will he though? That sounds pretty evil for Cloud.

What, killing bad guys to get information about a bigger bad guy? I don't think it's too extreme for Cloud. Sure, he's not a psychopath, but he is willing to use violence to get what he wants.


I believe it's mentioned in the OP that Joker and Sephy both share quite alot of information about their accomplishments, so both do have that knowledge. The difference is, Sephy probably won't make much use of that knowledge, to the Joker it's an awesome weapon.

I think that if Sephiroth has the knowledge, he will use it. Probably in a similar manner as the Joker did. By killing off specific people, and lettting Batman no that there's nothing he can do about it.

Pink
2008-08-20, 01:35 AM
What, killing bad guys to get information about a bigger bad guy? I don't think it's too extreme for Cloud. Sure, he's not a psychopath, but he is willing to use violence to get what he wants.

Generally you don't get information from dead people. If anything cloud might be less effective this way then Batman's torture. That being said, how did Cloud suddenly become a sleuth of batman's talents? How would he know who to threaten?

Sholos
2008-08-20, 01:37 AM
Finding the biggest bad guy on the streets probably isn't that hard for someone with even half and ear to the ground. I'm sure Cloud could ask around and find out who to talk to.

And remember, the only reason Maroni didn't talk to Batman was because Batman "has rules" and the Joker doesn't. Maroni knew he'd survive the encounter with Batman, even if he got hurt in the process. There was no way he'd survive giving out the information.

Pink
2008-08-20, 01:44 AM
...You're suggesting..That the Joker could be found by cloud? I really don't think that's the case. Even the mob couldn't really find him (Unless he wanted to be found) with all their men and lack of rules about killing people.

That being said, I would imagine that in such a situation, The joker would still have some card up his sleeve that would assure safety. Most likely the reason that Cloud would be searching for him, a hostage of some sort.

Though i still think Cloud just going around killing people until someone gives up the info is not only too evil for him, But would probably get shinra or whoever is considered law enforcement, to try and calm cloud down. Clearly there must be some law of fair trial that would make it illegal for cloud to start hacking up some street punks without any evidence, and if Cloud is going against that then the Joker has halfway won probably.

Sholos
2008-08-20, 01:48 AM
My main point is that both the Joker and Sephiroth are probably going to use similar tactics. Target the people their respective targets care about. I think Cloud will weather that better. Either that, or neither Sephiroth nor Joker will really succeed in their respective goals.

Pink
2008-08-20, 01:56 AM
My main point is that both the Joker and Sephiroth are probably going to use similar tactics. Target the people their respective targets care about. I think Cloud will weather that better. Either that, or neither Sephiroth nor Joker will really succeed in their respective goals.

...How exactly do you think cloud will fair that better? And who does Batman really care about that would come close to breaking him? How would Cloud react if when he went to visit edge, tife wasn't at the orphanage, instead a bloody knife was there? What would he do if his cell phone was called and he was given a choice, to either run into the heart of the ruins of midgar to save tifa, or find the bomb in edge city that would destroy everything and everyone within? I simply don't think cloud could handle these situations well enough. Batman? He endures. He triumphs. He doesn't really have anyone close enough that would cloud his judgement anymore. And he can live with the decisions he makes.

Personally, I don't think Sephiroth would use any tactic different from those suggested thus far, namely, just outright slaughtering Gotham. Because for him, let's face it, destruction and the outright attack have been his strategies. If Seph was the type to really attack what cloud cared about, in AC, he's have gone for the airship filled with clouds friends instead of attacking Cloud. There's simply no way you can say that Sephiroth would be on the same level of mental strategy and cunning as the joker, someone who is able to manipulate and predict the movements of most everyone he comes up against.

Sholos
2008-08-20, 02:13 AM
How does Joker get Tifa into a dangerous situation in the first place? There's no one alive that's capable of taking her down that would do it. I also don't think that Cloud is this mental weakling that everyone seems to think he is. In the game, he finds out that he's not who he thinks he is, and he's forced to do all kinds of nasty things via the Jenova connection he has with Sephiroth. I'm sure if Batman went through that he'd have a pretty rough time, too. However, Cloud is past all that. It's over with. He wasn't even disturbed by Sephiroth showing back up. All the Joker is going to do is make him angry. He's not going to be able to turn the city against Cloud like he did with Batman.

On the other hand, Batman has at least one family that's close to him. The Gordons. I don't think that Sephiroth would hesitate to target them, and there's nothing Batman can do about it. Also, note that in the first game, it was never really Sephiroth's goal to mentally scar Cloud. He manipulated Cloud, but that was more to get what he wanted than to deliberately mess with Cloud. Given a specific objective, I think Sephiroth is intelligent enough to come up with a viable plan.

Pink
2008-08-20, 02:22 AM
Oddly enough, I can't particularly recall how it happens, But Tifa really is the most human and vunerable of the party members I believe. I mean, I'm pretty sure if she was just minding her own business one day, a tranq would taker her out. Why exactly do you assume the Joker is going to use any sort of front and center approach? And if not Tifa, why not marlene, or any number of the children he lives with. They were enough to make cloud follow Kadaj and friends before. Except the Joker would be using them to lead cloud into trap after trap and then at the end, probably somehow have him watch a video of them ripping each other apart.

And if The joker can make Cloud start randomly killing hooligans as you have suggested he would, then I certainly can imagine him turning the town against cloud.

As for the Gordons...I don't see how that would emotionally break Batman. Gordon is important because of the job he does, and he does it well and Batman generally needs someone capable like Gordon in the commisioner position. Otherwise I don't see how the Gordons would be particularly close enough to cause huge mental anguish to bats.

As for sephiroth coming up with a viable plan...Once again by experience Sephiroth would simply think brute force is a viable plan. He wouldn't even try to think of trying to make good people kill other good people if he can just kill them himself in an attempt to hurt bats.

Sholos
2008-08-20, 02:36 AM
How is the Joker going to get the kids to tear each other apart? And again, doing something like that is just going to make Cloud angry. And you don't want Cloud following you when he's angry.

I think the movie showed how close the Gordons and Batman are. Batman went to their house to inform Mrs. Gordon of the death of her husband. That shows that he's closer the them than other random people.

I don't see how the town would turn against Cloud if he started killing major criminals. For one, the town would be a lot cleaner. This is assuming that there are any major criminals anyways. FF towns all seem to be bastions of purity, unless you're talking about the capital (which in this case has been destroyed and is deserted). I think Joker will be very alone.

Another point. Joker didn't try to get "good" people to kill others until after Batman had already broken. That was afterwards. What broke Batman was the personal stuff.

Dervag
2008-08-20, 08:15 AM
I think that if Sephiroth has the knowledge, he will use it. Probably in a similar manner as the Joker did. By killing off specific people, and lettting Batman no that there's nothing he can do about it.The Joker has already mined this field out, in my opinion. There aren't that many people left that you can kill to hit Batman hard by the end of the movie. Moreover, the entire population of Gotham knows more or less what the Joker did and why, and a lot of them aren't going to fold a second time.


Another point. Joker didn't try to get "good" people to kill others until after Batman had already broken. That was afterwards. What broke Batman was the personal stuff.What broke Batman was threats against Rachel (who he loved) and Harvey Dent (who he was certain Gotham needed). Both those people were irreplaceable from his perspective.

Remove them from the picture, and who's left?

Sholos
2008-08-20, 08:44 AM
Who's left? Gordon. Gordon is pretty much Gotham's only legitimate hope left.

GoC
2008-08-20, 09:25 AM
Well you can judge for yourself http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdvuwBXPfMI&feature=related (About 3minutes 30 for him destroying the gunship)

The gunships were fairly common enemies in game(Or at least.. in the demo). He fights multiple at once at one point IIRC.
But apparently he can be harmed by them?
Thought so. Well even if he's twice as powerful in FF7 and cloud is ten times as powerful as he is then Cloud still dies to a single MOAB. This of course assumes those aren't comic book explosions. If they are then a real world hellfire missile would kill him.
Also after watching another youtube vid I must conclude that those helicopter gunmen have very poor aim...:smallbiggrin:


1. GoC. If a character is capable of surviving world destroying explostions, a gunship, or even a nuke is not going to effect them. I agree that it's unrealistic and silly, but you can't pretend like it's not part of the character just because it's inconvenient to your point. Give it up.
I should point out that FF contains contradictions, I bet that there are several occassions that have the main characters geting wounded or at least bruised by forces far smaller than planet destroying weapons, for instance a punch, a bullet or a large slab of concrete?
I'm also going to want a source on that one and more information on the type of explosion.

After watching this (http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=4q3SiRYDS4w&feature=related) I must conclude that Cloud and company are definitely not superstrong. They probably couldn't even pull of the moves Cloud and Tifa do in Advent Children.

Selrahc
2008-08-20, 09:33 AM
Well even if he's twice as powerful in FF7 and cloud is ten times as powerful as he is then Cloud still dies to a single MOAB. This of course assumes those aren't comic book explosions. If they are then a real world hellfire missile would kill him.

But... Joker has no access to a MOAB, and Sephiroth is much more powerful than even Cloud.

And if the military needs to drop a MOAB on Sephiroth they are going to wreck Gotham.


I'm also going to want a source on that one and more information on the type of explosion.



If The Knights of the Round Table spell, a force which comes from a distant universe and crushes several planets, including the sun and probably a few solar systems along the way simply gets... absorbed by a demi-god Sephiroth who just shrugs off the kind of attack that would obliterate the entire planet, it's probably safe to say that there's little the army could do to stop Cloud, who defeated Sephiroth one-on-one.

GoC
2008-08-20, 10:04 AM
But... Joker has no access to a MOAB, and Sephiroth is much more powerful than even Cloud.

And if the military needs to drop a MOAB on Sephiroth they are going to wreck Gotham.
True, however the joker could get access to a few tons of TNT, right?



If The Knights of the Round Table spell, a force which comes from a distant universe and crushes several planets, including the sun and probably a few solar systems along the way simply gets... absorbed by a demi-god Sephiroth who just shrugs off the kind of attack that would obliterate the entire planet, it's probably safe to say that there's little the army could do to stop Cloud, who defeated Sephiroth one-on-one.
Did he mean Super Nova (http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=v42lUjT8uU8&feature=related)?
That's definitely just a poetic description or an illusion. Shall I explain everything that's wrong with that movie?

Freshmeat
2008-08-20, 10:25 AM
As GoC has already pointed out, it's actually Super Nova that I meant earlier. I wouldn't know if you could just pass it off as an illusion. That game is full of insane things like that (such as the Weapons, which are humongous mecha the size of several cities, pretty much created to destroy all life, if necessary). All of these are quite real.
Of course the planet would've been destroyed if it was able to punch a hole straight through Jupiter, but then these are fantasy physics and aren't exactly meant to be realistic anyway.

That said, some of Cloud and Sephiroth's strengths can be explained by Cutscene Power to the Max (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CutscenePowerToTheMax) (and to a far greater extent, his weaknesses by Cutscene Incompetence (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CutsceneIncompetence)) and Gameplay and Story Segregation (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GameplayAndStorySegregation).
I suppose it's implied that Cloud could die from a bullet to the head, but the game definitely shows otherwise. In the battles he fights he has heavy machinegun fire, grenades, bombs and rockets for starters, and fireballs, meteors and planet-shattering spells for dessert, so a single bullet probably isn't going to do much. By comparison, Vincent flying around and shooting down gunships in mere seconds with his fancy pistol is rather tame.


Status effects might work, but you'd need someone really skilled to cast anything that would have an effect on Cloud. And the Joker can't cast spells, though he might be able to learn how to use materia.

Mako poisoning would be a good route to mess up Cloud psychologically. However...

Mako poisoning only occurs if the victim is exposed to it for a long time. The Joker only has 2 weeks here.
Cloud has already survived mako poisoning twice. He knows how to cure it, how to avoid it and should be aware of all symptoms by now.
Since Advent Children, he actually has a cure for Geostigma (the disease associated with mako poisoning) so that'd be a problem for The Joker too.

Threatening/kidnapping Marlene or any other random kid would work, I guess. This would probably be the best route for the Joker to take, although Cloud has only gained in mental resistance since the end of FF VII and Advent Children. Whether The Joker might still be able to break him, I wouldn't know, but I still have my doubts. Cloud probably has accepted already that in some situations, he just can't save everyone.

Lostintransit
2008-08-20, 10:34 AM
True, however the joker could get access to a few tons of TNT, right?


Did he mean Super Nova (http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=v42lUjT8uU8&feature=related)?
That's definitely just a poetic description or an illusion. Shall I explain everything that's wrong with that movie?

The problems of this Vs fight have already been laid out by others, but I'll answer this one...

At that point in the game, Sephiroth has merged with and mentally taken over a universe traveling, planet energy eating, copy making alien life form, that he happened to share a fare few cells with. Jenova took out most of the Ancients, who used to travel the cosmos and can communicate from the dead, heal vast wounds (people or regeneration of planetary material), and worked out how to seal her in the same energy she absorbs! But got practically exterminated in the process!

Sephiroths goal at the end game was cause extinction level event , whilst still on the planet!, survive its impact and absorb the energy! He is practically a living god, with the power to physically move celestial objects with magic!

Sephy vs batman = Batman breaks as he is corrupted by jenova inside his mind (sephy can look like anyone and merely touching him can infect you)

Joker vs cloud = only chance is against little kids not main party members! (gotta love ribbons for ignoring status effects!) at which point he kills joker then brings the kids back from near death (phoenix down) or if they are dead kindly asks Aerith to do her healing thing..... :smallbiggrin:

Regards

P.S as for the army vs sephiroth... The world of earth loses.... as he has magic!

Freshmeat
2008-08-20, 10:36 AM
Joker vs cloud = only chance is against little kids not main party members! (gotta love ribbons for ignoring status effects!) at which point he kills joker then brings the kids back from near death (phoenix down) or if they are dead kindly asks Aerith to do her healing thing..... :smallbiggrin:

Let's assume for the purposes of this exercise that Phoenix Downs are out.
If the Joker kills someone, they're dead.

GoC
2008-08-20, 10:37 AM
As GoC has already pointed out, it's actually Super Nova that I meant earlier. I wouldn't know if you could just pass it off as an illusion. That game is full of insane things like that (such as the Weapons, which are humongous mecha the size of several cities, pretty much created to destroy all life, if necessary). All of these are quite real.
Of course the planet would've been destroyed if it was able to punch a hole straight through Jupiter, but then these are fantasy physics and aren't exactly meant to be realistic anyway.

It's not realism but consistency and versimilitude. What is shown on that movie (if you haven't watched it the do so) is so far departed from anything that could exist in our universe that I don't even know where to begin. Using that movie as evidence of any sort results in the two universes being compared becoming incompatible and one of them becoming stupidly inconsistent (guess which?) and debate becomes impossible.

Lostintransit: Was it your intention to quote something that makes your main point moot?

Lostintransit
2008-08-20, 10:56 AM
It's not realism but consistency and versimilitude. What is shown on that movie (if you haven't watched it the do so) is so far departed from anything that could exist in our universe that I don't even know where to begin. Using that movie as evidence of any sort results in the two universes being compared becoming incompatible and one of them becoming stupidly inconsistent (guess which?) and debate becomes impossible.

Lostintransit: Was it your intention to quote something that makes your main point moot?

Well it is a game..... :smallwink:
Nah, what I was trying to point out is that sephy does have the power to move celestial objects (such as large plant sized objects) using naught but magic. I'm guessing the reason he doesn't use supernova in non combat is that it wouldn't let him gather the energy or something.... :smalltongue:

Also as has been pointed out combat and cutscenes in FF7 are kinda separate (for some of the more OTT stuff) but its generally listed that they could use that power, but choose not to...

Regards

Freshmeat
2008-08-20, 11:06 AM
A question to the original poster: you said you posted this discussion on dicefreaks as well. What did they conclude? Right now, I'd say it's sort of a stalemate due to these universes just being way too different and due to the powers and abilities of just about every character involved being far too inconsistent.

Paragon Badger
2008-08-20, 11:06 AM
Let's assume for the purposes of this exercise that Phoenix Downs are out.
If the Joker kills someone, they're dead.

Cloud: Oh, that's no biggie. PHOENIX DOWN!
Aeris: ...
Cloud: ...I SAID 'Phoenix Down!'
Aeris: ...
Cloud: ...
Aeris: ...
Cloud: *sniffle*

Sephiroth would win, because batman has no way of stopping him short of capitulation. The joker relied upon non-confrontation and his wit to get the edge on Batman, while Sephiroth is quite unstoppable.

Cloud, on the other hand, can just vent his rage into tracking the joker down and annihilating everything in his path.

The thing is that Batman is powerless to stop Sephiroth. He's no longer a hero, no longer 'something more than a hero', he's just a regular ordinary guy in the face of a demigod. Batman would likely just suicidally confront Sephiroth, preferring to go down in a blaze of glory rather than give up. Sephiroth could spare him, as per the rules, and go on destroying Gotham and the entire world.

I mean, he'd probably have an easier time destroying earth than his own planet, considering he can just break into some military installation and use nuclear weapons to fit his own ends.

Knowing you were helpless to prevent the apocalypse is sure to put a dent or two in Batman's armor. :smallwink:

Lostintransit
2008-08-20, 11:12 AM
Cloud: Oh, that's no biggie. PHOENIX DOWN!
Aeris: ...
Cloud: ...I SAID 'Phoenix Down!'
Aeris: ...
Cloud: ...
Aeris: ...
Cloud: *sniffle*

Sephiroth would win, because batman has no way of stopping him short of capitulation. The joker relied upon non-confrontation and his wit to get the edge on Batman, while Sephiroth is quite unstoppable.

Cloud, on the other hand, can just vent his rage into tracking the joker down and annihilating everything in his path.

The thing is that Batman is powerless to stop Sephiroth. He's no longer a hero, no longer 'something more than a hero', he's just a regular ordinary guy in the face of a demigod. Batman would likely just suicidally confront Sephiroth, preferring to go down in a blaze of glory rather than give up. Sephiroth could spare him, as per the rules, and go on destroying Gotham and the entire world.

I mean, he'd probably have an easier time destroying earth than his own planet, considering he can just break into some military installation and use nuclear weapons to fit his own ends.

Knowing you were helpless to prevent the apocalypse is sure to put a dent or two in Batman's armor. :smallwink:

Pretty much sums up the argument.... And I do remember seeing that in a clip somewhere.... very funny of course! :smallbiggrin:

Regards

GoC
2008-08-20, 01:09 PM
Sephiroth would win, because batman has no way of stopping him short of capitulation. The joker relied upon non-confrontation and his wit to get the edge on Batman, while Sephiroth is quite unstoppable.

Cloud, on the other hand, can just vent his rage into tracking the joker down and annihilating everything in his path.

The thing is that Batman is powerless to stop Sephiroth. He's no longer a hero, no longer 'something more than a hero', he's just a regular ordinary guy in the face of a demigod. Batman would likely just suicidally confront Sephiroth, preferring to go down in a blaze of glory rather than give up. Sephiroth could spare him, as per the rules, and go on destroying Gotham and the entire world.

I mean, he'd probably have an easier time destroying earth than his own planet, considering he can just break into some military installation and use nuclear weapons to fit his own ends.

Knowing you were helpless to prevent the apocalypse is sure to put a dent or two in Batman's armor. :smallwink:
It's a tad annoying when people don't bother to read the posts of the posters before them...
I've been arguing for the fact that Sephiroth can in fact be taken down by a modern military and is too proud to hide or run away from them so...
1. Seph arrives and starts destroying Gotham.
2. Police and SWAT prove ineffictive (assuming game Sephiroth) and are ripped to shreds.
3. Military arrives.
4. Stupid Sephy laughs and goes out to meet them.
5. Sephiroth dies.
Result: Many people dead and part of Gotham destroyed but Seph is dead.


Well it is a game..... :smallwink:
Nah, what I was trying to point out is that sephy does have the power to move celestial objects (such as large plant sized objects) using naught but magic. I'm guessing the reason he doesn't use supernova in non combat is that it wouldn't let him gather the energy or something.... :smalltongue:

Also as has been pointed out combat and cutscenes in FF7 are kinda separate (for some of the more OTT stuff) but its generally listed that they could use that power, but choose not to...
You lost me.:smalleek:
I was pointing out that the main characters haven't in fact survived planet destroying attacks.
What celestial objects did he move appart from that meteor (which doesn't really count as it was a forgotten superweapon in an ancient egyptian tomb:smalltongue:)?

You seem polite though...

Anteros
2008-08-20, 01:27 PM
But you aren't actually arguing anything. You're just saying "no he can" over and over. People give you examples of his durability and you just say "lol those are too different for us to judge" and completely ignore their point.

Paragon Badger
2008-08-20, 01:28 PM
Sephiroth did break into Shinra Headquarters and killed the president of the world. They were fairly modern, with mecha and all.

And he took down the Midgar Zolom...

Let's not forget that even before demi-god status, he was a beast; kicking the dragon's ass during a flashback (a battle which served no purpose other than to expose just how powerful he was.)

I woulden't say he's too proud; the guy snuck around alot. He snuck aboard a ship in Junon, snuck into the Shinra headquarters and released Jenova. He was a sneaky little hobbitses, and implied to be alot more intelligent than is shown.

Even if you discount his power, the joker still can't reliably ellude Cloud and strike at his loved ones simultaneously, on account of the blondie's sheer strength and lack of empathy for complete strangers. (At least, to the degree that Batman has)

GoC
2008-08-20, 01:46 PM
But you aren't actually arguing anything. You're just saying "no he can" over and over. People give you examples of his durability and you just say "lol those are too different for us to judge" and completely ignore their point.
...
What?
I'm saying "No he can"?:smallconfused:

Examples? I gave a counterpoint to the one about Super Nova and I can't recall any other examples in this thread apart from the helicopters.

When did I ignore someone's point by saying "lol those are too different for us to judge"?:smallsigh:


Sephiroth did break into Shinra Headquarters and killed the president of the world. They were fairly modern, with mecha and all.
Nuclear silos are generally more isolated in this world (so they will have more warning which is very important when fighting someone like Sephiroth) and their location isn't public knowledge.


And he took down the Midgar Zolom...
Sounds intersting but I've no clue what a Midgar Zolom is.:smallredface:


I woulden't say he's too proud; the guy snuck around alot. He snuck aboard a ship in Junon, snuck into the Shinra headquarters and released Jenova. He was a sneaky little hobbitses, and implied to be alot more intelligent than is shown.
Hmm...
Maybe like I misjudged him.
Can he actually lay low without resisting to the temptation to kill the mortals who slight him?


Even if you discount his power, the joker still can't reliably ellude Cloud and strike at his loved ones simultaneously, on account of the blondie's sheer strength and lack of empathy for complete strangers. (At least, to the degree that Batman has)
I'm not arguing for the Joker so much as arguing against the idea that nothing on Earth can stop Sephiroth.

Sholos
2008-08-20, 02:35 PM
GoC, have you actually played the game? If you have, I'll remind you that the Midgar Zolom is this huge snake thing that lives in a swamp. It's in-game purpose is to make you catch a chocobo to avoid it so that you can move on, because there's no way you're going to beat it at that time. Right after you get past it, you see another one impaled on a giant stake, showcasing how powerful Sephiroth is.

I fail to see what the military could effectively do to Sephiroth that wouldn't leave Gotham in ruins. This is assuming that he doesn't teleport of harms way when they start dropping bombs.

Lostintransit
2008-08-20, 06:10 PM
It's a tad annoying when people don't bother to read the posts of the posters before them...
I've been arguing for the fact that Sephiroth can in fact be taken down by a modern military and is too proud to hide or run away from them so...
1. Seph arrives and starts destroying Gotham.
2. Police and SWAT prove ineffictive (assuming game Sephiroth) and are ripped to shreds.
3. Military arrives.
4. Stupid Sephy laughs and goes out to meet them.
5. Sephiroth dies.
Result: Many people dead and part of Gotham destroyed but Seph is dead.

You lost me.:smalleek:
I was pointing out that the main characters haven't in fact survived planet destroying attacks.
What celestial objects did he move appart from that meteor (which doesn't really count as it was a forgotten superweapon in an ancient egyptian tomb:smalltongue:)?

You seem polite though...

Thanks for the kind words! :smallsmile: I try my best to keep it civil, makes things easy to discuss.

As for the army taking sephy in a fight, I've already had this discussion with a bunch of my mates (and four of them are physicists!), and if we apply real world physics to all things (including nuclear inceneration) sephy still wins, for the simple reason that earth cannot deal with magic. Sephy can make a barrier for which he is immune to all attacks unless it sucks the very life energy from the ground (which earth doesn't have) as long as a single cell of his body exists, it can clone and copy itself onto any other being, completle taking over their mind, creating more of itself, he can summon metorites to strike the planet or anything else he chooses, and moves so fast that our weapons couldn't even hit him.

Super magic beats reality.

As for the main characters surviving planet destroying attacks, I would count getting hit with ultima or a localised comet pretty close to that level.

Thinking about it, summons are really easy to explain, as the party disappears when they are cast, so all that happens is the summon sends the opponent to the plane where X summon lives, in which they wail on them for a bit before being returned. So sephy casts the summon supernova, they all get transported to a different plane and then the new planet, similar to their own, gets vaporised by a super nova, they survive and/or die, then return to their own plain. I think that covers it nicely!

So yes cloud and co survive a sun going supernova. (That does mean sephy can just send the army to this plain and laugh as they burn to death....)

Regards

GoC
2008-08-21, 05:48 AM
Thanks for the kind words! :smallsmile: I try my best to keep it civil, makes things easy to discuss.

As for the army taking sephy in a fight, I've already had this discussion with a bunch of my mates (and four of them are physicists!I'm one too!), and if we apply real world physics to all things (including nuclear inceneration) sephy still wins, for the simple reason that earth cannot deal with magic. Sephy can make a barrier for which he is immune to all attacks unless it sucks the very life energy from the ground (which earth doesn't have) as long as a single cell of his body exists, it can clone and copy itself onto any other being, completle taking over their mind, creating more of itself, he can summon metorites to strike the planet or anything else he chooses, and moves so fast that our weapons couldn't even hit him.

Super magic beats reality.

I concede Military vs. Sephiroth and Sephiroth vs. Gotham on the basis of this information.
Though I am curious as to how the protagonists kept him dead...
From what I saw on youtube it mostly involved them hitting him with sharp objects.

How can we know that he moves so fast?
Real world bullets move at over 1000m/s or 3600km/h...


As for the main characters surviving planet destroying attacks, I would count getting hit with ultima or a localised comet pretty close to that level.

Thinking about it, summons are really easy to explain, as the party disappears when they are cast, so all that happens is the summon sends the opponent to the plane where X summon lives, in which they wail on them for a bit before being returned. So sephy casts the summon supernova, they all get transported to a different plane and then the new planet, similar to their own, gets vaporised by a super nova, they survive and/or die, then return to their own plain. I think that covers it nicely!

So yes cloud and co survive a sun going supernova. (That does mean sephy can just send the army to this plain and laugh as they burn to death....)

Regards
That's an interesting theory...
I don't have sufficient information to determine it's validity.


GoC, have you actually played the game?

Nope, never.
Hence me not knowing a few things and relying on information others provide (and youtube vids).
Didn't I mention this before?

Thufir
2008-08-21, 07:51 AM
How can we know that he moves so fast?
Real world bullets move at over 1000m/s or 3600km/h...

I don't think anyone's suggesting that Sephiroth moves faster than bullets, but he moves fast enough that it would be at least very difficult to get an accurate shot off. There's also a strong probability he can deflect bullets with his sword.

And as an additional point to the Sephiroth vs. Army, considering Advent Children, he seems to consider gravity more or less optional, and he can slice through buildings. So rather than confront the army head-on, he could just cut a few chunks out of skyscrapers and drop them on the troops. And this is without resorting to magic.

Lostintransit
2008-08-21, 08:34 AM
I concede Military vs. Sephiroth and Sephiroth vs. Gotham on the basis of this information.
Though I am curious as to how the protagonists kept him dead...
From what I saw on youtube it mostly involved them hitting him with sharp objects.

Unfortunatley they don't keep him dead... he keeps coming back! hence the geostigma thing in Advent children. Also by that point they are summoning dragon gods and galaxy destroying enties.....


How can we know that he moves so fast?
Real world bullets move at over 1000m/s or 3600km/h...

Well i'm going to say that the act of seeing people firing at you but putting your sword in the way and deflecting the bullet counts as high speed, also even should he not dodge it it wouldn't matter as he and his clothes can survive inside a firestorm of magical energy and suffer no damage!!


That's an interesting theory...
I don't have sufficient information to determine it's validity.

Nope, never.
Hence me not knowing a few things and relying on information others provide (and youtube vids).
Didn't I mention this before?

Well it was just a theory to help explain the differences between movie and games! :smallwink: Also its cool that your a physicist to! though my friends do tend to cry during our RPG sessions (FF7 RPG.....)! :smallbiggrin:

Sephy just is on a different level to the real world of gotham (dark knight) there is nothing they could do to stop him!

Regards

Agrippa
2008-09-08, 02:09 AM
Freshmeat, this is thread (http://dicefreaks.forumz.cc/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=604&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=175) on Dicefreak's I was talking about.

Kimusabe
2008-09-08, 03:22 AM
Well Ignoring the fact that I am completely biased absolutely towards Sephiroth all the way:

Sephiroth would be completely unstoppable in the world of Gotham. really. no doubt. Considering all his abilities:
Firstly; his skill with the Masamune, he was (nearly) undefeatable with this weapon in the final fantasy world, and when you think about how easy he was able to fight off such powerful foes with it, that rules out any possibilties of someone in Gotham coming after him with a sword or other close range weapon (namely Batman)

Secondly; Sephiroth's ability to survive technological weapons. Although in the world of Gotham there are such things as nuclear bombs and all, not only did Sephiroth survive the blast from the sister ray in Midgar unscathed, but he would also (we assume) survive the meteor ripping through the world.

Thirdly; Sephiroth's Magical strength. Although he would most probably not need it, Sephiroth has the most incredible magical powers most people could think of, and even though some of them don't make sense (considering how many times he used supernova in the final battle against me :smalltongue:) he can do a hell of a lot more damage that any number of explosives Humans could make. (and If he really wanted, he could just summon meteor and destroy the world)

Therefore: Batman has no freaking chance of doing anything to stop Sephiroth in any way.

Now: Although the joker is awesome, here is why he would fail at crushing Cloud:

Firstly; Sephiroth, as we all know, would beat the Joker in a fight hands down. and when you remember that Cloud has killed Sephiroth THREE times, you'd think he could also beat the living crud out of him. (yes three times, one before 7, once in 7 and once in advent children)

Secondly; although Cloud is severely mentally unstable in FF7, he still manages to fight off every attempt that Sephiroth made to drive him crazy, and admittedly the Joker may be better at this than good ol' Sephy, Cloud would be able to kill him before he could drive him crazy.

Thirdly; Yes, the Joker could blow Cloud up in a building, but when you think about it, Cloud has been blown up several times before, and turned out fine, plus nearly every final fantasy character can survive any kind of giant explosion (*cough*Rufus Shinra*cough*)

and Fourthly; Some people have noted that the Joker could hunt down Cloud's mates and kill them to drive him mad. No, he actually couldn't. Any of Cloud's friends could also beat Joker easy, (even Aerith/Aeris could if she wasn't dead)



So well, yeah, Sephiroth can't exactly lose, and the Joker can't exactly win.
But I am Extremely biased towards Sephiroth in every way, after all, he is the most loveable bad guy ever.

Fan
2008-09-08, 03:27 AM
Well Ignoring the fact that I am completely biased absolutely towards Sephiroth all the way:

Sephiroth would be completely unstoppable in the world of Gotham. really. no doubt. Considering all his abilities:
Firstly; his skill with the Masamune, he was (nearly) undefeatable with this weapon in the final fantasy world, and when you think about how easy he was able to fight off such powerful foes with it, that rules out any possibilties of someone in Gotham coming after him with a sword or other close range weapon (namely Batman)

Secondly; Sephiroth's ability to survive technological weapons. Although in the world of Gotham there are such things as nuclear bombs and all, not only did Sephiroth survive the blast from the sister ray in Midgar unscathed, but he would also (we assume) survive the meteor ripping through the world.

Thirdly; Sephiroth's Magical strength. Although he would most probably not need it, Sephiroth has the most incredible magical powers most people could think of, and even though some of them don't make sense (considering how many times he used supernova in the final battle against me :smalltongue:) he can do a hell of a lot more damage that any number of explosives Humans could make. (and If he really wanted, he could just summon meteor and destroy the world)

Therefore: Batman has no freaking chance of doing anything to stop Sephiroth in any way.

Now: Although the joker is awesome, here is why he would fail at crushing Cloud:

Firstly; Sephiroth, as we all know, would beat the Joker in a fight hands down. and when you remember that Cloud has killed Sephiroth THREE times, you'd think he could also beat the living crud out of him. (yes three times, one before 7, once in 7 and once in advent children)

Secondly; although Cloud is severely mentally unstable in FF7, he still manages to fight off every attempt that Sephiroth made to drive him crazy, and admittedly the Joker may be better at this than good ol' Sephy, Cloud would be able to kill him before he could drive him crazy.

Thirdly; Yes, the Joker could blow Cloud up in a building, but when you think about it, Cloud has been blown up several times before, and turned out fine, plus nearly every final fantasy character can survive any kind of giant explosion (*cough*Rufus Shinra*cough*)

and Fourthly; Some people have noted that the Joker could hunt down Cloud's mates and kill them to drive him mad. No, he actually couldn't. Any of Cloud's friends could also beat Joker easy, (even Aerith/Aeris could if she wasn't dead)



So well, yeah, Sephiroth can't exactly lose, and the Joker can't exactly win.
But I am Extremely biased towards Sephiroth in every way, after all, he is the most loveable bad guy ever.

Join the FF Fanclub, I should really make that in the gaming thread.

Kimusabe
2008-09-08, 03:36 AM
Join the FF Fanclub, I should really make that in the gaming thread.



Teehee, I LOVES the final fantasies :smallbiggrin: Especially 7, is my favourite by far.
Lately I managed to get two more of my Friends addicted (at least partially) to FF as well. :smalltongue: I loves getting people to play them, because so far I only have one friend who has actually played them much to talk to about them, and that's all he talks about, so it does get a bit repeditive, but Now I has more friends to talk to about them :smallbiggrin:

And My Friend has these awesome as chibi badges of Sephiroth and Vincent, I am SOOOOO jealous of them.

Fan
2008-09-08, 03:38 AM
Teehee, I LOVES the final fantasies :smallbiggrin: Especially 7, is my favourite by far.
Lately I managed to get two more of my Friends addicted (at least partially) to FF as well. :smalltongue: I loves getting people to play them, because so far I only have one friend who has actually played them much to talk to about them, and that's all he talks about, so it does get a bit repeditive, but Now I has more friends to talk to about them :smallbiggrin:

And My Friend has these awesome as chibi badges of Sephiroth and Vincent, I am SOOOOO jealous of them.
Lets avoid derailing the thread, and continue this is the actual Fanclub thread in the gaming section three section down.

GoC
2008-09-08, 08:58 AM
I know this thread has already been concluded but this post annoys me:


Firstly; his skill with the Masamune, he was (nearly) undefeatable with this weapon in the final fantasy world, and when you think about how easy he was able to fight off such powerful foes with it, that rules out any possibilties of someone in Gotham coming after him with a sword or other close range weapon (namely Batman)
We all know that movie Batman can't hurt Sephiroth in any way (otherwise the military would crush him). Because if Sephiroth just stood there and let Batman take a swing at him with a very sharp sword and did even a tiny scratch then a single bomb would kill Sephiroth.


Thirdly; Sephiroth's Magical strength. Although he would most probably not need it, Sephiroth has the most incredible magical powers most people could think of, and even though some of them don't make sense (considering how many times he used supernova in the final battle against me :smalltongue:) he can do a hell of a lot more damage that any number of explosives Humans could make. (and If he really wanted, he could just summon meteor and destroy the world)
We cannot consider Super Nova a part of Sephiroth's arsenal or we'd have to rule the two universes fundamentaly incompatible.


Thirdly; Yes, the Joker could blow Cloud up in a building, but when you think about it, Cloud has been blown up several times before, and turned out fine, plus nearly every final fantasy character can survive any kind of giant explosion (*cough*Rufus Shinra*cough*)
There is a massive difference between a comic book/game explosion and a real life one. As we don't know which one the movie uses we can't say anything here.

Fan
2008-09-08, 09:25 AM
I know this thread has already been concluded but this post annoys me:


We all know that movie Batman can't hurt Sephiroth in any way (otherwise the military would crush him). Because if Sephiroth just stood there and let Batman take a swing at him with a very sharp sword and did even a tiny scratch then a single bomb would kill Sephiroth.


We cannot consider Super Nova a part of Sephiroth's arsenal or we'd have to rule the two universes fundamentaly incompatible.


There is a massive difference between a comic book/game explosion and a real life one. As we don't know which one the movie uses we can't say anything here.

I'm sorry GoC, but tis a null agruement here. we are comapring someone who can fly, and torch an entire city no prblem. in additon to getting shot in the face multiple times point blank range. You seriously cant be telling me someone who can destroy the planet EASILY cant beat one adimtedly awesome, but by far one of the weaker super heroes in a one on one fight, with Sephie being about forty times more mysterious then super man, and with no obvious wekanesses i'd have to hand this fight to sephie.

Now on to Cloud. Its basily the same as above, buton a higher level. spehie didn't have matieria albiet he had abilities that emulated it he didn't actually have all the versatility that came with it. Cloud sees the Joker a smart ass muff fukka, and decides that he'd need to coutner act that with bad aqssery, by slicing a buiding he was in half with omni slash. Simple as that.

Agrippa
2008-09-08, 12:33 PM
This is about who can mentaly crush their target first, not whether or not the Joker can survive a toe to toe fight with Cloud. The name of the game is psychological torture and not direct confrontation. The Joker doesn't need to be in the same room with Cloud to attempt to torment him, just give him a cell phone. It might not work but he'll give it shot.

GoC
2008-09-08, 08:32 PM
I'm sorry GoC, but tis a null agruement here. we are comapring someone who can fly, and torch an entire city no prblem. in additon to getting shot in the face multiple times point blank range. You seriously cant be telling me someone who can destroy the planet EASILY cant beat one adimtedly awesome, but by far one of the weaker super heroes in a one on one fight, with Sephie being about forty times more mysterious then super man, and with no obvious wekanesses i'd have to hand this fight to sephie.

Now on to Cloud. Its basily the same as above, buton a higher level. spehie didn't have matieria albiet he had abilities that emulated it he didn't actually have all the versatility that came with it. Cloud sees the Joker a smart ass muff fukka, and decides that he'd need to coutner act that with bad aqssery, by slicing a buiding he was in half with omni slash. Simple as that.

I've already conceded in this thread.
I'm just nitpicking at the flaws in that post.
I'm sure you'll agree that the Justice League Batman would win purely by virtue of dues ex machina technology and very powerful friends (such as Superman)?

Lostintransit
2008-09-09, 03:47 AM
I've already conceded in this thread.
I'm just nitpicking at the flaws in that post.
I'm sure you'll agree that the Justice League Batman would win purely by virtue of dues ex machina technology and very powerful friends (such as Superman)?

Thanks GoC you have just given me an idea.....

(dear lord what have you done!!)

a new Vs thread coming soon.....

Regards