Watchmen - Doctor Manhattan

[Nickotene]

Okay I'm new to this whole website, so try not to sound demeaning towards me if I screw up some how. :smallbiggrin:

(If you haven't read Watchmen, you should)

Okay, the big man himself, Doctor Manhattan.
I truly believe he is the most powerful being in the comic book universe.

There really is no limit to his powers, and trying to describe them all here would take forever; so I'll try to sum it up.

-He has control over molecules and particles at a subatomic level.
-He can teleport himself or others over intergalactic distances.
-He simply cannot die, there is no known way to kill him.
-The Doc has near total clairvoyance.
-Telekinesis
-He views time in a non-linear fashion. In other words he's living in the past, present, and future at the same time. (weird eh?)
-Because of his particle control, he can make countless copies of himself in any size, shape, or form.
-Reverse entropy, and he can walk on the sun. :smallconfused:

The list just goes on.

So I'm basically saying he is the most powerful guy ever created in the comic book universe. I don't think anyone can beat him.

What do you guys think?

[kpenguin]

Anything that can change fate can beat Dr. Manhattan. Dr. Manhattan is bound by fate.

[BRC]

Anything that can change fate can beat Dr. Manhattan. Dr. Manhattan is bound by fate.
"We're all puppets, I'm just a puppet that can see the strings"
Mind you, I don't think much could stand against something that can alter fate.

[Nickotene]

Hmm, that can be true, yes.

But who in the super-world can control fate, or the future? -.-

[Dalenthas]

Hmm, that can be true, yes.

But who in the super-world can control fate, or the future? -.-

Any number of probability altering mutants from the X-Men, notably Domino, Longshot, and the Scarlet Witch.

Well, if you want to beat Dr. Mahatten, you need to use a tachyon screen to stop him from functioning properly...

[Dragonmuncher]

Telepathic powers? I don't think he ever reads anyone's mind, nor communicates mentally, at any point in the book.

[Nickotene]

As far as the telepathic powers ago, I read about it in an interview with Alan Moore. It may just be some fan making it up, but according to the fan the words came from Moore. But whatever.
( Turns out I was reading the interview wrong -.- my bad.
It's telekinesis, not telepathic.) :smallsmile:

And really, Doctor Manhattan knows the outcome of everything that is going to happen. He is able to do this because time is predetermined, everything that is going to happen will happen.
We as humans don't know our futures, but every move we make is meant to happen in our lifetime.
The altering fate idea really doesn't work; because if someone tried to change the outcome, well they couldn't.

It's almost like life is a big musical (or movie) and we all have scripted parts to it; we just don't know or realize it.
Doctor Manhattan knows the script, and knows the outcome. He realizes life and our destiny is predetermined.
Just like the quote someone mentioned earlier, "We're all puppets Laurie. I'm just a puppet who can see the strings."

Okay hopefully I didn't get too off topic there. :smallcool:

[Ragabash]

Telepathic powers? I don't think he ever reads anyone's mind, nor communicates mentally, at any point in the book.

I think you might be mixing up telepathy and telekinesis? I didn't see any mention of telepathy until your post.

[Tirian]

Doc only has the power of plot. He can do anything as long as it is what is supposed to be done, and more often than not he is the one who will prevent himself from doing more. Recall that he was powerless to prevent JFK's assassination because "it had already happened" from his perspective. In many ways, he is nearly the most impotent superhero ever written.

As far as being unbeatable goes, huh.

Adrian kills three million people under Jon's nose, and rather than stop him or bring him to justice, Jon decides "this is the moment in which I relocate to a different galaxy." That sounds a whole lot to me like Adrian > Jon, even if the knockout blow didn't work as planned.

[Revlid]

Adrian kills three million people under Jon's nose, and rather than stop him or bring him to justice, Jon decides "this is the moment in which I relocate to a different galaxy." That sounds a whole lot to me like Adrian > Jon, even if the knockout blow didn't work as planned.

The thing is, Dr. Manhattan didn't really care about those dead people. He didn't bring him to justice because justice is a meaningless concept for him - it was the others, the humans, that decided not to punish him.

Hell, 'the man' tried to kill him, using the only thing he thought could possibly do so. The Doctor reappears a few seconds later, totally unharmed. In the end, the Dr knew everything that was going to happen, while 'the man' was left unsure that he'd even done the right thing. The reason the Dr left was because he wanted to be alone - to create life.

[Rare Pink Leech]

It seems to me that Doctor Manhattan's powers fall into two categories: complete control over molecules and viewing time in a non-linear fashion.

The first, molecular control, while extremely powerful and god-like, still only plays second fiddle to reality control in comic books. Doctor Manhattan can alter the very fabric of the universe at will. Someone like Phoenix or numerous other reality warpers I can't think of right now can change reality itself. Doctor Manhattan is still essentially bound by science and what can be achieved using the physical properties of the universe. A reality warper can simply do anything just because they can.

I'm not trying to put Doctor Manhattan down, but if you put him into a larger comic universe, like Marvel, he's simply not the most powerful anymore. In these instances the reality warpers beat the molecular manipulators, even though both are still ridiculously powerful.

Of course, all of this is actually made moot by Doctor Manhattan's second power: experiencing time in a non-linear fashion. From what we have seen, he is bound by fate. He sees everything that has ever happened to him, is happening to him, and will ever happen to him, and even though he can see the future, he does not even try to change it. Essentially, he has no free will. He does exactly what the script says, and nothing else. Ironically, the most powerful being in the Watchmen universe is the one with the least control over his life.

What does this mean? It doesn't matter how powerful or how smart you are, you'll either never beat Doctor Manhattan even after years of meticulous planning, or you might succeed after deciding to kill him on the spur of the moment. Whoever ultimately defeats him, if anyone does, will do it solely because they were meant to, not on any of their own merits.

[kpenguin]

All you need is someone who can change the script.

[Nargrakhan]

I don't think anyone can beat him.

Two words: Stan Lee

Comic book character who is God in the Marvelverse.

To quote the good Lord said Himself: Nuff said.

[kpenguin]

Two words: Stan Lee

Comic book character who is God in the Marvelverse.

To quote the good Lord said Himself: Nuff said.

I thought the One-Above-All takes the form of Jack Kirby?

[Zaphrasz]

There is him, and just about any lesser Universe Scale power, be it the Living Tribunal, Death, Eternity, whatever.

I don't think they can exist in the same universe. Doctor Manhattan's power comes from the fact that the universe operates on a set series of laws. If we add cosmic powers, it means that it does not, and we end up with a paradoxical chicken and egg situation, as Manhattan's existence proves that there are laws, but Cosmic Forces prove there aren't.

[TheEmerged]

In many ways, he is nearly the most impotent superhero ever written.

This, so very, VERY this. And to be honest with you, I think the writer intended it to be that way.

The villain of the story won, pure and simple. Dr. Smurf actually kills one of the good guys of the story to make sure nobody finds out the villain is responsible.

[Rare Pink Leech]

I don't think they can exist in the same universe. Doctor Manhattan's power comes from the fact that the universe operates on a set series of laws. If we add cosmic powers, it means that it does not, and we end up with a paradoxical chicken and egg situation, as Manhattan's existence proves that there are laws, but Cosmic Forces prove there aren't.

I don't think having cosmic forces necessarily means there aren't laws, it just means there are ways to circumvent those laws/exist beings to whom the laws don't apply.

[Nickotene]

Lots of great ideas here.

Technically Doc could be beaten by people like phoenix, but then again he could just reform himself (over and over again).

Okay, sure there are ways to DEFEAT Doctor Manhattan, but there is no way to completely destroy him. The battles would just continue on forever. :smallamused:

Then again, the Doc just might not see the morality of fighting someone with the same powers as him or better.

He's really a laid back super-hero, due to his perception of time.

In fact, I don't think Manhattan should techincally be called a SUPER-HERO. :smallannoyed:

He's just.........there.
Not saving lives, but just there.

[KingMerv00]

Dr. M is crazy powerful but certainly not Living Tribunal powerful.

I mean he got confused by tachyons. TACHYONS!!! I have a bucket of those sitting by my door in case of emergencies.

Also, you could kill him with time travel possibly. Stop him from getting in the I.F. chamber for example.

[Whoracle]

Hm... How does Doc stand against Magicians?

Try pitting him against "The Doctor" from The Authority. He could turn Jon into Music. Or Perfume. Granted, the Doctor is quite powerful, but somehow I don't think lesser mages would have too many problems with Manhattan, either.

[chiasaur11]

Hm... How does Doc stand against Magicians?

Try pitting him against "The Doctor" from The Authority. He could turn Jon into Music. Or Perfume. Granted, the Doctor is quite powerful, but somehow I don't think lesser mages would have too many problems with Manhattan, either.

Ah, but here we work from a standpoint of Magic>Science, a stance many works argue against, such as Bill Mantlo's excellent ROM, SPACEKNIGHT.

[Thufir]

I must admit I don't know anything about some of the potential adversaries people have been mentioning, but surely anything tied to a physical existence should lose, as Dr. Manhattan can disintegrate them by thinking it?

However, this is ignoring one of the most crucial points about Dr. Manhattan: the deterministic universe. Effectively nothing has free will. Confusing him with tachyons makes no difference - his actions, and everyone else's, are still predestined and cannot be changed. He just doesn't know what they are in advance.
Essentially, the only way to know if Dr. Manhattan will lose to any adversary is to ask him. And even then, he might be predestined to lie about it. The only way to know for sure is to be Dr. Manhattan.

[chiasaur11]

I must admit I don't know anything about some of the potential adversaries people have been mentioning, but surely anything tied to a physical existence should lose, as Dr. Manhattan can disintegrate them by thinking it?

However, this is ignoring one of the most crucial points about Dr. Manhattan: the deterministic universe. Effectively nothing has free will. Confusing him with tachyons makes no difference - his actions, and everyone else's, are still predestined and cannot be changed. He just doesn't know what they are in advance.
Essentially, the only way to know if Dr. Manhattan will lose to any adversary is to ask him. And even then, he might be predestined to lie about it. The only way to know for sure is to be Dr. Manhattan.



Or be one of the Marvel, DC, or Dark Horse universe's notable destiny screwers. I mean, Richard and friends once went to the future, saw the apocolypse coming, and beat it up so hard the time cops arrested them for it.
Booster Gold can change the past, for Pete's sake. The Challengers of the Unknown in fact, as far as a deterministic universe knows, don't exist.

In other words, Doc. M could be beat by a right hook from a guy in a purple jumpsuit.

[Emperor Tippy]

Phoenix could take him without any real effort. She can erase a person from time so that they never existed. She can literally just decide one day that Dr. Manhattan just never existed and the only people who would remember his existence (and thus be able to do anything about said existence) and Phoenix, LT, and the One Above All.

Dr. Manhattan is certainly up there are the top power levels, I think he could take Galactus or the like without breaking a sweat, but he just doesn't hold a candle to the beings that exist outside the universe and control the universe (Phoenix can set off another big bang whenever she feels like it).

[Thufir]

chiasaur: I don't think you're getting what at least is my impression of the Dr. Manhattan deterministic universe - namely, that it is entirely deterministic. All actions are predetermined. So these characters I haven't heard of went to the future and beat up the apocalypse? Sure. They always did that, and Dr. Manhattan knew about it. Someone changes the past? His act of changing the past was predetermined, and Dr. Manhattan knew about it. It's completely deterministic, and any changes you make were always going to be made.

Tippy: Ah, but conversely, Dr. Manhattan could at least make Phoenix cease to exist from this point onwards. So which of them decides to do it first?

It's a trick question. Since Dr. Manhattan lives in a deterministic universe, there is no decision. Whichever way it happens, it was always going to happen that way. For this reason, the deterministic universe may be considered quite boring if you acknowledge it.

Sidenote: I need to read more comics.

[Emperor Tippy]

No. Phoenix is outside the universe. That is the difference. Dr. Manhattan is forced to exist within the universe, he can't effect things that aren't in the universe. Phoenix isn't part of the universe.

[The Rose Dragon]

Is it Phoenix that is outside the universe or just the Phoenix Force?

[Emperor Tippy]

Is it Phoenix that is outside the universe or just the Phoenix Force?

In its current incarnation there is no difference. Jean/Phoenix/Phoenix Force are all the same as White Phoenix of the Crown.

[chiasaur11]

chiasaur: I don't think you're getting what at least is my impression of the Dr. Manhattan deterministic universe - namely, that it is entirely deterministic. All actions are predetermined. So these characters I haven't heard of went to the future and beat up the apocalypse? Sure. They always did that, and Dr. Manhattan knew about it. Someone changes the past? His act of changing the past was predetermined, and Dr. Manhattan knew about it. It's completely deterministic, and any changes you make were always going to be made.

Tippy: Ah, but conversely, Dr. Manhattan could at least make Phoenix cease to exist from this point onwards. So which of them decides to do it first?

It's a trick question. Since Dr. Manhattan lives in a deterministic universe, there is no decision. Whichever way it happens, it was always going to happen that way. For this reason, the deterministic universe may be considered quite boring if you acknowledge it.

Sidenote: I need to read more comics.

Ummm... the living embodiment of Destiny itself couldn't keep track of The Challengers Of The Unknown. His big book of everything that'll happen ever lost total track of them. From the POV of a deterministic Universe, they're dead. There'd be no way he could see it coming.

[luagha]

Having just reread WATCHMEN and hearing you all talk about 'who won'...

It is clear from the last page that Rorschach and the Comedian get the last laugh.

[Friv]

chiasaur: I don't think you're getting what at least is my impression of the Dr. Manhattan deterministic universe - namely, that it is entirely deterministic. All actions are predetermined. So these characters I haven't heard of went to the future and beat up the apocalypse? Sure. They always did that, and Dr. Manhattan knew about it. Someone changes the past? His act of changing the past was predetermined, and Dr. Manhattan knew about it. It's completely deterministic, and any changes you make were always going to be made.

Tippy: Ah, but conversely, Dr. Manhattan could at least make Phoenix cease to exist from this point onwards. So which of them decides to do it first?

It's a trick question. Since Dr. Manhattan lives in a deterministic universe, there is no decision. Whichever way it happens, it was always going to happen that way. For this reason, the deterministic universe may be considered quite boring if you acknowledge it.

Sidenote: I need to read more comics.

This is where you really run into a problem comparing Dr. Manhatten to people from a Marvel or DC comic, actually.

Neither the Marvel nor the DC universe is deterministic. The future can be changed, no view of unfolding time is absolute, and things get mucked up all the time. It's the exact opposite of how the Watchmen universe operates.

So, if you pull Dr. M into Marvel, he'll have his opinion about how everything is supposed to go, and then something will go totally differently because some jackass rewrote a chunk of history and made it so that some other jackass totally never died, and Manhattan will be all "Fatal Error: 918" and gone.

If you drag non-deterministic people into a universe where they have no ability to alter reality, you're really just removing their main power and then throwing them against a nearly godlike being.

[Rare Pink Leech]

I disagree that it is clear that Ozymandias' scheme will be discovered. There is plenty of other evidence in the book to make it ambiguous whether the ruse will hold or not.

For one, the journal provided only had clues and theories; it was dropped off before Rorschach had anything close to proof.

Both Rorschach and the newspaper (I can't remember what it's called) are both hardly seen as trustworthy sources, regarded as right-wing extremist nutjobs who amount to little more than a tabloid and a man who belongs in an asylum; it is not a given that anyone would believe the paper enough to take the story at face value or even to investigate further, or even believe that it really is Rorschach's journal.

We saw Ozymandias eliminate practically all evidence--the ship with the artists (which it seemed no one from the outside even knew about, considering the article that stated the comic artist had been missing for several years) unfortunately sank, and Ozimandias' servants killed themselves in a drunken stupor; while I'm sure with enough investigation all these things could be discovered, they really amount to no more than a series of coincidences.

In the police log describing Rorschach's arrest, it mentions his journal was written in either a code or completely unintelligible handwriting, which leaves open the possibility that the journal Rorschach sent was also written in unintelligible handwriting.

Finally, although I'm not sure about this one, didn't the editor of the paper mention sometime that they were going to throw out all the letters and stuff sent in from the crank file? Just because we see the journal at the top of the pile doesn't mean it was the one the kid took, so there remains the possibility the journal never saw the light of day.

Now, I'm not saying that I think this is for sure what happened, or am I passing judgement on anyone who feels one way or the other. I haven't made up my mind one way or another what happens. But I don't think anything clearly happens one way or another. I also recognize that none of these arguments are anything near air-tight, and that you could argue just as easily that things could go the other way, which is completely true. All that does is highlight the ambiguity of the ending.

[Thufir]

This is where you really run into a problem comparing Dr. Manhatten to people from a Marvel or DC comic, actually.

Neither the Marvel nor the DC universe is deterministic. The future can be changed, no view of unfolding time is absolute, and things get mucked up all the time. It's the exact opposite of how the Watchmen universe operates.

So, if you pull Dr. M into Marvel, he'll have his opinion about how everything is supposed to go, and then something will go totally differently because some jackass rewrote a chunk of history and made it so that some other jackass totally never died, and Manhattan will be all "Fatal Error: 918" and gone.

If you drag non-deterministic people into a universe where they have no ability to alter reality, you're really just removing their main power and then throwing them against a nearly godlike being.

I pretty much agree with this post. The big issue is that Dr. Manhattan and these other characters people are mentioning don't exist in the same universe.

I disagree slightly on what happens when you put one into the universe of the other. I would say that if you put Dr. Manhattan into the Marvel universe, he would no longer know the future due it not being deterministic. If he still knows what will happen, he'll know that hypothetical jackass is going to have rewritten history. Or at least, once said jackass has done it, Dr. Manhattan's knowledge of the future will alter to accomodate the changes, which is the middle view.

And if you put a reality altering character in the Watchmen universe, they may still be able to alter reality. It's just that them doing so is predestined. Dr. M would probably make an off-hand comment about it.

Dr. Manhattan: Ah, [insert name here] has just altered the past, so that [whatever they changed].
Someone else: What?! How can you know that?! You don't make any sense!

[kpenguin]

I pretty much agree with this post. The big issue is that Dr. Manhattan and these other characters people are mentioning don't exist in the same universe.

I disagree slightly on what happens when you put one into the universe of the other. I would say that if you put Dr. Manhattan into the Marvel universe, he would no longer know the future due it not being deterministic. If he still knows what will happen, he'll know that hypothetical jackass is going to have rewritten history. Or at least, once said jackass has done it, Dr. Manhattan's knowledge of the future will alter to accomodate the changes, which is the middle view.

And if you put a reality altering character in the Watchmen universe, they may still be able to alter reality. It's just that them doing so is predestined. Dr. M would probably make an off-hand comment about it.

Dr. Manhattan: Ah, [insert name here] has just altered the past, so that [whatever they changed].
Someone else: What?! How can you know that?! You don't make any sense!

Okay, Dr. Manhattan is not omniscient. He doesn't see or know anything. He simply perceives time in a non-linear fashion. There is no evidence of him knowing something he did not know in the past or would know in the future. So if Dan Dreiberg didn't tell him that he was wearing orange socks during the first and only Crimebusters meeting and never will, Dr. Manhattan will not know this at any time during his existence.

For him, time is like a vast landscape. Other people can only see small portions of the landscape at once, but he has a bird's eye view of it. If someone were to change something in history via time travel, Jon would probably see this landscape change. He may not know who changed it or why, however.

[Nevrmore]

Okay, Dr. Manhattan is not omniscient. He doesn't see or know anything. He simply perceives time in a non-linear fashion. There is no evidence of him knowing something he did not know in the past or would know in the future. So if Dan Dreiberg didn't tell him that he was wearing orange socks during the first and only Crimebusters meeting and never will, Dr. Manhattan will not know this at any time during his existence.
Proof: He didn't know that the main in the trenchcoat and fedora at Blake's funeral was Moloch, commenting, "Do I know that man from somewhere?"

[kpenguin]

Proof: He didn't know that the main in the trenchcoat and fedora at Blake's funeral was Moloch, commenting, "Do I know that man from somewhere?"

Exaaactly.

[The Rose Dragon]

Well, he could, if the future wasn't muddled by tachyons.

Damn those tachyons.

[darkblade]

One of the universes destroyed by Superboy-Prime during the Infinite Crisis was implied to be the Watchman universe so if you believe that Superboy-Prime could beat Dr. Manhatten....Yeah I have trouble believing it too.

[Finn Solomon]

One of the universes destroyed by Superboy-Prime during the Infinite Crisis was implied to be the Watchman universe so if you believe that Superboy-Prime could beat Dr. Manhatten....Yeah I have trouble believing it too.

Are you serious? Which comic was it in?

[Rare Pink Leech]

Okay, Dr. Manhattan is not omniscient. He doesn't see or know anything. He simply perceives time in a non-linear fashion. There is no evidence of him knowing something he did not know in the past or would know in the future. So if Dan Dreiberg didn't tell him that he was wearing orange socks during the first and only Crimebusters meeting and never will, Dr. Manhattan will not know this at any time during his existence.

For him, time is like a vast landscape. Other people can only see small portions of the landscape at once, but he has a bird's eye view of it. If someone were to change something in history via time travel, Jon would probably see this landscape change. He may not know who changed it or why, however.

Yup. The Doc ain't omniscient, he simultaneously experiences everything he has done and ever will do. While that still gives him vast amounts of knowledge (anything he will ever learn/see/know he knows right now) it is no where near omniscience.

[Ethrael]

Not getting into the details of fate and stuff but anything magical or superiorly primordial I think can beat him. Phoenix(es) for example, and that doesn't mean he'll be able to see what happens cos the tachyons screwed up his clairvoyance before. Why wouldn't the Phoenix be able to do something like that.

[Xenogears]

Thanos with The Infinity Gauntlets. Everything else (Except the Living Tribunal) is weak when compared to the Infinity Gauntlets. And even the Living Tribunal was powerless against Thanos with the Heart of the Universe.

Also is anyone else interested in the Watchmen movie coming out?

[KevLar]

OK, I'll probably get lynched by a mob of angry fanboys for this, but what the heck.

Dr Manhattan cannot be beaten by another superhero. And here's why:

Dr Manhattan cannot coexist in the same universe with any of them. And here's why.

Dr Manhattan's universe, the world of Watchmen, is, in fact, an alternate world. A thought out world, based on a consistent philosophy (determinism, and the kind of determinism that pretty much precludes free will, rendering all human morality meaningless at best and hypocritical at worst), with consistent politics, and consistent with itself, i.e. the existence of a super-powerful being. On the other hand, DC Universe and Marvel Universe, and all the variations thereof, are not consistent. And here's why:

They were designed to host the adventures of men in tights, and occasionally capes. If you think about them, they make no sense whatsoever. A world with Superman serving one power (America) cannot possibly be a world where America still has enemies. A world that has people with huge superpowers cannot possibly be a world like ours. But DC Universe and Marvel Universe are worlds like ours. And here's why:

Their goal isn't to make a consistent world, it is to sell millions of comics. So they use a world like ours, in order to make us, the gentle readers, connect with the heroes and keep buying. Watchmen, on the other hand, has no such goals. And here's why:

Watchmen was designed to be a work of art with a beginning and an end, and not an idea to be used and reused and reused again and exploited to death until the sales plummet after some decades. And why wouldn't anyone want to write something that will bring even more profits in the years to come? Here's why:

Because Watchmen's goal isn't to simply "entertain you for a couple of hours as you're waiting to die" (I'm paraphrasing Alan Moore here). It's to make you stop and think and question your preconceptions about life, morality and the world as you know it. It's to mark you for life.

... And that's why, in effect, comparing Dr Manhattan's powers with any other superpowers makes no sense either. No sense at all.

*ducks*

[nothingclever]

Saying here's why a million times sounds kind of obnoxious. Anyways saying they can't be compared because the authors of different series have different intentions doesn't make much sense.

What makes more sense is saying Watchmen is written in a way that more strongly implies Manhattan cannot be beaten than any other character because there is never any indication that the author would want that to happen since he wants an absolute ending to the story. Meanwhile other writers let their infinitely strong characters be beaten when it should be impossible so new interesting stories can be written meaning their description of infinitely powerful or invincible doesn't hold as much weight since they allow it to be contradicted while the author of Watchmen does not so when Manhattan fights another infinitely powerful person he should win since his power is never contradicted.

Like invincible character A has never had his invincibility contradicted.
Invincible character B has been beaten somehow.
Character A should win against B because no exceptions to his invincibility have ever been made and that fact breaks the tie.

Another way of comparing two characters described as infinitely is their track record in the form of feats they demonstrated.
One character destroys a planet while the other destroys a galaxy.
Technically they are equal but the second has been clearly shown to have done greater things while we don't know how truly powerful the other character is.

Saying one comic is more meaningful than another doesn't mean its characters can't be compared to others.