Destroying the Pact Primeval

[Ranis]

So I thought that it might make an awesome epic-level one-shot to run at GenCon next year to have a group of epic-level characters travel to Nessus and take a swing at destroying the unholy pact-document laid down by Asmodeus and the gods themselves.

So I know that the pact primeval is basically in a HUGE fortress inside of Nessus, the ninth level of Baator, but not much else. Is there already material written for this; if so, where can I find it? If not, does anyone have some ideas for what could be in this fortresses of fortresses?

[Emperor Tippy]

First decide how you are handling epic casting. That should always be the first thing you think about when contemplating an epic game.

[puppyavenger]

First decide how you are handling epic casting. That should always be the first thing you think about when contemplating an epic game.

as in, no creating an auto-penetrating supernova centered around the pact from the safety of your extradimensional home?

[Emperor Tippy]

as in, no creating an auto-penetrating supernova centered around the pact from the safety of your extradimensional home?

No, more as in Asmodeus can epic cast better than you, so the Pact is protected so well that you can't get to it in any way at all.

[Moose Fisher]

Since the Pact Primeval is the document the Hells themselves were founded on, I'd imagine Asmodeus would use every trick in the book in defending that document.

I'm not familiar with epic-level play. Perhaps the climax would be (nearly) every member of the Nine coming to defend the Pact, but they don't get along. Expect a lot of backstabbing as Asmodeus is weakened by the PCs.

[Ranis]

How would you suggest handling epic casting?

[Fizban]

Well, the seed based system is all messed up: if you make a spell that has a level appropriate DC with no mitigating factors, it's more like a 6th level spell at 15 or 20th CL. If you optimize it, you win DnD. Best is usually just to drop it all together and let casters make do with massive amounts of metamagic, either reducing costs or buying higher slots with epic feats (which get bonus slots from high ability).

There's a nice thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37410) with epic metamagic feats meant to replace the normal epic casting system. I haven't used them, but they look pretty good to me, and let you emulate some of the niftier ideas without going overboard.

[Emperor Tippy]

Ban in completely?

Actually I would do the following:

Level 21: Can cast any 0 or 1st level spells as at will SLA's so long as you know them or they are in your spell book. You can apply meta to these SLA's as if they were still spells.

Level 23: As above except 2nd level spells as well.

Level 25: As above except 3rd level spells as well.
Level 27: As above except 4th level spells as well.
Level 29: As above except 5th level spells as well.
Level 31: As above except 6th level spells as well.
Level 33: As above except 7th level spells as well.
Level 35: As above except 8th level spells as well.
Level 37: As above except 9th level spells as well.
Level 39: As above except 10th level spells as well.
Level 41: As above except 11th level spells as well.

Then add in another feat chain:

Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Specialized Spell Penetration [epic]

Specialized Spell Penetration can be taken for any school that you have both Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus for and it lets you ignore SR or magic immunity for all spells of that school (so if you chose evocation you could now fireball a golem, for example).

---
Yes, at level 37 you get unlimited at will free wishes, gate's TS's, and anything else you want to think of. And with Auto Quicken 3 times and multispell it gets even better.

[AslanCross]

The Pact Primeval is not only unholy. It is also holy. In fact, it's probably the only thing in all of existence that radiates overwhelming Good, Evil, and Law at the same time. I think the repercussions of destroying it will not only involve Asmodeus going "NOT AS PLANNED."

[TK-Squared]

The Pact Primeval is not only unholy. It is also holy. In fact, it's probably the only thing in all of existence that radiates overwhelming Good, Evil, and Law at the same time. I think the repercussions of destroying it will not only involve Asmodeus going "NOT AS PLANNED."

Except, strangely, it is as planned...

[hamishspence]

Automatic Quicken Spell was fixed in Complete Arcane, it needs a lot more Automatic Quicken Spell feats now to quicken 9th level spells.

[jcsw]

Doesn't destroying the Pact Primeval located in Nessus just shift the power balance over to the demons? It's not a particularly good act...

[CASTLEMIKE]

So I thought that it might make an awesome epic-level one-shot to run at GenCon next year to have a group of epic-level characters travel to Nessus and take a swing at destroying the unholy pact-document laid down by Asmodeus and the gods themselves.

So I know that the pact primeval is basically in a HUGE fortress inside of Nessus, the ninth level of Baator, but not much else. Is there already material written for this; if so, where can I find it? If not, does anyone have some ideas for what could be in this fortresses of fortresses?

Wouldn't it be even cooler to steal the copy of the pact (one of the contract stipulations is it must remain in Hell (Major Cudos for delivering to the Chaotic celestials supposedly all the forces of Law would suffer if it is removed)) or take down Asmodeus the ruler of Hell? Lots of Pitfiends in the 9th layer. Normally cannot enter the plane except via a guarded Two way Gate between the 8th and 9th layers (No Gate spells or Planeshifting......).

The pact is located in Tabjari a copper citadel jutting from the side of the Reaper's canyon. The tunnels have lots of traps. The pact is believed to be stored in the deepest vault (Maybe it is only a copy). Encased inside a Large Ruby that weighs around 20 tons (the fortress was built around the Ruby which is to large to fit through fortress doorways and while never stated to my knowledge that it is a major or epic artifact it certainly acts like one so depends on the campaign how effective mortal spellcasting would be on it) which can confer powers on someone who touches it [(Ruby) Imagine what would happen if the actual copy was touched].

Of course stealing or destroying the pact could be part of a complex many layered plot involving multiple parties. Asmodeus may wish to add an additional clause or adendum.:smallsmile:

[Mewtarthio]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't there three copies of the Pact, one of which is stored on a plane of utter Law? I think destroying the Pact Primeval in Hell would just mean that everyone has to go to the Mechanus copy and rebuild it. Destroying the Pact in Mechanus just means that the Pacts in Hell and the other place (Mt Celestia, is it?) get compared to each other, and the Mechanus Pact is rebuilt from there. I think you'd have to destroy both the Mechanus Pact and the Nessus Pact to have any impact.

Of course, you could always just say that there's another party in Mechanus taking care of that copy. I should probably note that this seems to be an extremely Chaotic action, and I have no idea what would result, nor what your party hopes to accomplish (unless it's "throw the Outer Planes into Chaos").

[CASTLEMIKE]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't there three copies of the Pact, one of which is stored on a plane of utter Law? I think destroying the Pact Primeval in Hell would just mean that everyone has to go to the Mechanus copy and rebuild it. Destroying the Pact in Mechanus just means that the Pacts in Hell and the other place (Mt Celestia, is it?) get compared to each other, and the Mechanus Pact is rebuilt from there. I think you'd have to destroy both the Mechanus Pact and the Nessus Pact to have any impact.

Of course, you could always just say that there's another party in Mechanus taking care of that copy. I should probably note that this seems to be an extremely Chaotic action, and I have no idea what would result, nor what your party hopes to accomplish (unless it's "throw the Outer Planes into Chaos").

Original copy of Asmodeus isn't impervious to destruction to my knowledge but as a artifact would normally reconstitue itself over time.

The Pacts in Mechanus and Celestia are supposedly impervious to destruction but if removed from their rightful planes the powers of Law would be significantly undermined and Chaos would be strengthened.

[Fiendish_Dire_Moose]

Well first off this is a suicide run, more suicidal that an epic version of Tomb of Horrors run by level 1s.
And to my knowledge, (book not on hand) there are wards that protect the pact, such as auras that stop you from getting anywhere near it.
And yes, you will most likely be finding Asmodeous, Glayssa, (Glyssa? whatever her name is), and an army of pit fiends standing between you and it. AT A MINIMUM. And by army of pit fiends, I mean no man has ever counted that high.

I don't even think the Epic Level Handbook gives you rules for something of a CR this high. I'm talking, this isn't epic, this makes epic look low level. As well, like others have said, this most certainly cannot be run as a "good" alligned game, as surely destroying the pact is the most chaotic and evil act known to man. Talk about upsetting balances.

However, I tip my hat to your creativity.

[chiasaur11]

Well first off this is a suicide run, more suicidal that an epic version of Tomb of Horrors run by level 1s.
And to my knowledge, (book not on hand) there are wards that protect the pact, such as auras that stop you from getting anywhere near it.
And yes, you will most likely be finding Asmodeous, Glayssa, (Glyssa? whatever her name is), and an army of pit fiends standing between you and it. AT A MINIMUM. And by army of pit fiends, I mean no man has ever counted that high.

I don't even think the Epic Level Handbook gives you rules for something of a CR this high. I'm talking, this isn't epic, this makes epic look low level. As well, like others have said, this most certainly cannot be run as a "good" alligned game, as surely destroying the pact is the most chaotic and evil act known to man. Talk about upsetting balances.

However, I tip my hat to your creativity.

So, we're talking CR: P^2, or CR: Merely Batman?

[Flickerdart]

Pun-Pun versus the Legions of the Nine Hells and all of Mt. Celestia and Mechanus, eh? I think that's about fair.

[Fiendish_Dire_Moose]

So, we're talking CR: P^2, or CR: Merely Batman?

Well, for one fire isn't going to do you any good, neither will banishment. You're going to need holy, and lots of it, in gigantic amounts. I don't think batman will do the group any good. Epic magic will only get you so far as well. But, if you're willing to risk it and have a recovery plan Vengeful Gaze of God is your best bet for anything.
Asmodeous can cast epic magic, and he can do it better than an epic Batman. We're talking a possible CR50-60, AT A MINIMUM. Even then you'll have to tone a lot down just to make it accomplishable. Assaulting the Pact Primeevil is NEVER something that should be handled lightly.

[Ascension]

I'm picturing three parties of insanely epic Slaadi and demons accompanied by hordes of babbling epic Xaositects, Sinkers, and clerics of Olidammara, Erythnul, and Kord simultaneously assaulting Mechanus, Mt. Celestia, and the Hells and swiping all three copies, resulting in the total victory of chaos and entropy consuming the worlds.

Sure, the party(ies) just destroyed the universe, but they destroyed the universe IN AN AWESOME MANNER, and that makes it all better.

[Flickerdart]

I'm picturing three parties of insanely epic Slaadi and demons accompanied by hordes of babbling epic Xaositects, Sinkers, and clerics of Olidammara, Erythnul, and Kord simultaneously assaulting Mechanus, Mt. Celestia, and the Hells and swiping all three copies, resulting in the total victory of chaos and entropy consuming the worlds.

Sure, the party(ies) just destroyed the universe, but they destroyed the universe IN AN AWESOME MANNER, and that makes it all better.
This must be combined with the "cast Reverese Gravity on a black hole" "combo" to destroy the universe even more.

[Ranis]

The pact is located in Tabjari a copper citadel jutting from the side of the Reaper's canyon. The tunnels have lots of traps. The pact is believed to be stored in the deepest vault (Maybe it is only a copy). Encased inside a Large Ruby that weighs around 20 tons (the fortress was built around the Ruby which is to large to fit through fortress doorways and while never stated to my knowledge that it is a major or epic artifact it certainly acts like one so depends on the campaign how effective mortal spellcasting would be on it) which can confer powers on someone who touches it [(Ruby) Imagine what would happen if the actual copy was touched].

Of course stealing or destroying the pact could be part of a complex many layered plot involving multiple parties. Asmodeus may wish to add an additional clause or adendum.:smallsmile:

Where did you garner this information? I'd like to do some reading :)

[SadisticFishing]

Urm, there aren't that many Pit Fiends.

This could be a very reasonable (extremely difficult) quest. Advance some devils, including pit fiends, and just do as you want with it. Have it an extremely complex dungeon crawl, with Asmodeus and other Archdevils showing up from time to time to try to stop you.

[Collin152]

Urm, there aren't that many Pit Fiends.


There are infinite Pit Fiends.
The lower planes being infinite and all.

[Emperor Tippy]

Urm, there aren't that many Pit Fiends.

Asmodeus bleeds advanced Pit Fiends. At a rate of 1d4 per round (iirc). And has a never healing wound.


So, let's say 10,000 years. That is 95,490,000,000 pit fiends.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Where did you garner this information? I'd like to do some reading :)

Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells. :smallsmile:



Urm, there aren't that many Pit Fiends.

This could be a very reasonable (extremely difficult) quest. Advance some devils, including pit fiends, and just do as you want with it. Have it an extremely complex dungeon crawl, with Asmodeus and other Archdevils showing up from time to time to try to stop you.

In Planescape and the Guide to Hell (Some people really dislike that source book) they had millions of Pit Fiends utterly loyal to Asmodeus in Nessus and at 100% Maximum Hit Points FC2 confirms that on page 74. It had the Citadel of Malsheem the headquarter of Asmodeus's Army stretching for hundreds of miles in every direction to house them which is larger than many states and countries. If you are into Anime think Bleach but worse for the Hollows.

[SadisticFishing]

Asmodeus bleeds advanced Pit Fiends. At a rate of 1d4 per round (iirc). And has a never healing wound.


So, let's say 10,000 years. That is 95,490,000,000 pit fiends.

Um, THAT's definitely not in the FC2. At least, the numbers. I think *goes and checks the book*.

Okay, so his aspect doesn't. His real self isn't statted anywhere.

Basically, do what you want to make it fun.

Plus, the FC2 makes it extremely clear that Pit Fiends are relatively rare.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Um, THAT's definitely not in the FC2. At least, the numbers. I think *goes and checks the book*.

Okay, so his aspect doesn't. His real self isn't statted anywhere.

Basically, do what you want to make it fun.

Plus, the FC2 makes it extremely clear that Pit Fiends are relatively rare.

Actually FC2 gives it a nod on page 74 under the Serpent's Coil and page 75 in the second paragraph under Malsheem both mention a drop of Asmodeus's blood swelling his army filled with maniacal loyalty who hunt for intruders to eradicate.

Depends on the source book if he is a Demi power or Greater Power or just a unique arch devil.

Actually page 74 makes it clear that proportionately more greater devils reside in Nessus than other planes and very few non devils are found on Nessus.

[Emperor Tippy]

Um, THAT's definitely not in the FC2. At least, the numbers. I think *goes and checks the book*.

Okay, so his aspect doesn't. His real self isn't statted anywhere.

Basically, do what you want to make it fun.

Plus, the FC2 makes it extremely clear that Pit Fiends are relatively rare.

I think it's from Book of Vile Darkness.

[Devin]

I think it's from Book of Vile Darkness.

Actually, I feel like it's from that "Nine Hells" special "book-thing(I have no idea what to call it)" that you can get online. The one with the prestige classes for each Lord of the Nine, like the Veil of Leviathan.

I also checked on Wikipedia, and it cited that fact from "Original Research."

[Emperor Tippy]

Actually its page 74 of FC2.

"Every drop of his spilled blood becomes a greater devil - usually a pit fiend with maximum hit points."

And on the same page: "When a Pit Fiend born of Asmodeus's veins sheds blood, a lower order devil - most often a barbazu - is born."

[Ascension]

Every time I read anything about Asmodeus I wonder "Why?"

They've built him up to be so incredibly awesome that there's pretty much no chance in hell... pardon the pun... that anybody can ever last two seconds against him unless he wants them to, and then he's just humoring them to further his greater schemes. Why even bother detailing that much about him? Why not just print "ASMODEUS WINS" on the inside cover of every PHB?

I thought the one thing keeping the devils in check was the demons, and I thought the one thing that allows them to do so is their greater numbers vs. the devils' greater skill, but if Asmodeus can bleed pit fiends like there's no tomorrow, all he's got to do is cut himself up and his legions will become utterly unstoppable.

This is why I want the Slaadi and friends to destroy the universe. It'll put an end to Asmodeus.

And don't you dare tell me that if they did manage to destroy the universe, it would all be because Asmodeus planned for them to destroy the universe. :smallsigh:

[Collin152]

And don't you dare tell me that if they did manage to destroy the universe, it would all be because Asmodeus planned for them to destroy the universe. :smallsigh:

Asmodeus: Master of the Xanatos Roulette.
Destroy the Universe, he becomes the Universe!

[CASTLEMIKE]

This is why I want the Slaadi and friends to destroy the universe. It'll put an end to Asmodeus.

And don't you dare tell me that if they did manage to destroy the universe, it would all be because Asmodeus planned for them to destroy the universe. :smallsigh:

Guide to Hell and Die Vecna Die. Asmodeus figures he will survive that catastrophe.

[Ascension]

Why is it that all the master manipulators are evil? Why couldn't St. Cuthbert or Heironius be this awesome? They're just as lawful, if Law is all it takes...

[Emperor Tippy]

Why is it that all the master manipulators are evil? Why couldn't St. Cuthbert or Heironius be this awesome? They're just as lawful, if Law is all it takes...

Because good is dumb?

[Doresain]

pun-pun and the omnificer team up vs hell

who will win in this ultimate showdown of ultimate destiny!?

[CASTLEMIKE]

pun-pun and the omnificer team up vs hell

who will win in this ultimate showdown of ultimate destiny!?

That is the Great Secret Asmodeus is a Paragon Kobold the First and Original Pun-Pun he bleeds Pit-Fiends :smallsmile:

[LiteYear]

Actually, I feel like it's from that "Nine Hells" special "book-thing(I have no idea what to call it)" that you can get online. The one with the prestige classes for each Lord of the Nine, like the Veil of Leviathan.

I also checked on Wikipedia, and it cited that fact from "Original Research."

I believe you're thinking of The Gates of Hell (http://dicefreaks.forumz.cc/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=8) from Dicefreaks.

[Fiendish_Dire_Moose]

I thought the one thing keeping the devils in check was the demons, and I thought the one thing that allows them to do so is their greater numbers vs. the devils' greater skill, but if Asmodeus can bleed pit fiends like there's no tomorrow, all he's got to do is cut himself up and his legions will become utterly unstoppable.



Actually the Nine Hells and The Abyss are practically seperate by all meaning of the word.
The demons are too busy with infighting. The Humanoid ones versus the non-humanoids. And the devils are too busy being lawful, backstabbing conniving monsters each gunning for the throne in Nessus.

As well: The reasons they statted out Asmodeous are:
1: It's completely pointless to say, "He has a win button"
2: They rules have it that gods can be killed, and
3: Asmodeous is by all accounts a god, cast from the celestial planes into the deep pits of Hell.
4: He's still nothing mroe than a divine ranked devil.


If you want to make a really cool assault on Hell, Tiamat resides on the firt plane of Hell. Do a raid for her loot.

[Gavin Sage]

Asmodeus: Master of the Xanatos Roulette.
Destroy the Universe, he becomes the Universe!

This was my though actually. Have the entire plotline end with a giant battle with Asmodeus who goes down screaming that "YOU MUSN'T!!!!" as he collapses. That done have omnious feelings of doom grow as the PCs work to destroy the Pact, as if the planes themselves are telling you something is wrong. Have the DMs lay the warnings on thicker then thick and if the PCs finally do it....

Have Asmodeus be revived by the portion of himself sealed in the Pact when it was forged, only now it has an inherent connection with the opposing powers of the universe. Asmodeus smiles, and everything goes dark. The PCs wake up later in chains before Asmo who releases them and sends them on their way. Why because he used the destruction of the Pact to corrupt Mount Celestia and absorbed its power into himself. All the archangels and good aligned deities are now LE and personally loyal to Asmo, who promptly went and destroyed any demon higher then maybe a Glabrezu, any god who didn't agree to be bound to Asmo, and has declared his new rulership over the Nine Thousand Hells of Existence.

End it with Asmo settling down with some potatoes chips before the PCs and mumbling something like '...as planned'

[Edea]

And don't you dare tell me that if they did manage to destroy the universe, it would all be because Asmodeus planned for them to destroy the universe. :smallsigh:

That's what Xanatos Gambits really end up being: Asspulls + Mary Sue. Both of these resources are infinite for a DM as long as it's his game. So yeah, expect heaping handfuls of these.

[Fiendish_Dire_Moose]

This was my though actually. Have the entire plotline end with a giant battle with Asmodeus who goes down screaming that "YOU MUSN'T!!!!" as he collapses. That done have omnious feelings of doom grow as the PCs work to destroy the Pact, as if the planes themselves are telling you something is wrong. Have the DMs lay the warnings on thicker then thick and if the PCs finally do it....

Have Asmodeus be revived by the portion of himself sealed in the Pact when it was forged, only now it has an inherent connection with the opposing powers of the universe. Asmodeus smiles, and everything goes dark. The PCs wake up later in chains before Asmo who releases them and sends them on their way. Why because he used the destruction of the Pact to corrupt Mount Celestia and absorbed its power into himself. All the archangels and good aligned deities are now LE and personally loyal to Asmo, who promptly went and destroyed any demon higher then maybe a Glabrezu, any god who didn't agree to be bound to Asmo, and has declared his new rulership over the Nine Thousand Hells of Existence.

End it with Asmo settling down with some potatoes chips before the PCs and mumbling something like '...as planned'


That's a pretty good plot twist. Are you sure you're not M. Knight Shyamalamadingdong?

[Eldritch_Ent]

pun-pun and the omnificer team up vs hell

who will win in this ultimate showdown of ultimate destiny!?

Isn't the Omniscificer's infinite damage loop how the Lady of Pain got her powers? It would make sense, given the name and all. :smallconfused:


However, I've got to agree that having Asmodeus always win is all of the sorts of other things that don't sit well with me. (Especially how Dicefreaks does it, if I recall. Needless to say I don't like Dicefreaks. ) I mean, it's just plain out not heroic. "The PC's can't ever strike a permanent blow, or even gain ground against the forces of hell because Asmodeus already planned for anything ever." Sure, not having PC's just dropping in and removing all evil from the universe whenever they please isn't either, but not having them be able to so much as invonvenience Asmodeus is even worse.

It's like the MST3K guys said at the end of "Touch of Satan"- "So the moral of the story is... Satan Wins?" "I guess..." I mean, at least being able to foil Asmodeus's plans should be fully possible. It's most plausible if done entirely by a group of powerful Chaotic Good beings. Even Asmodeus shouldn't be able to plan for *everything*. (Something to do with the "Butterfly Effect" or "Chaos Theory".)

My suggestion for reigning in power? As DM, you have the authority to "Cap" your universe at 20. Do so, then everyone Multiclass from there. (It's how the basic gods in the D&DG books do it.) Multiclassing could be a fun way to increase the power level of the campaign (Even just plain Gestalting could do it, too.), as well as encouraging your PC's to embrace the power of Cheese, at least short of infinite loops and arbitrarily high power. Something like this requires suitably awesome heros. (I mean, Cu Chullain tearing his way through hell would be awesome.)

And don't forget, The other greater devils can, and will, help you there, even if they do it for all the wrong reasons. If you actually manage to kill a large number of his devils, weaken his defenses, or even weaken him, the other Demons will probably gleefully backstab Asmodeus in a bid to get power. (Of course, some of them might make less pleasent rulers of hell, such as the one Asmodeus cursed to be a living pile of nasty, but eh.) Restructuring the rulers of hell will keep them busy for quite a while, at least.

At the very least, losing so many demons (and perhaps some of his greater demon generals) should throw a wrench in his plans. (For example, even if he can just rebuild the pact from the ones in Mechanus and Celestia, The forces of good will probably question the "goodness" of doing so for a while, and the Mechanus side will probably bog him down in literal endless red tape and minutae.)


Of course, the question *I* want to ask is- How does one even destroy a Pact Primeval once one gets it? Would one have to take it to the center of the Far Planes, or feed it to the strongest Sladd in existence, or what?

[Grey Paladin]

Asmodeus is as old as the Far Realm 'deities' and more powerful then every single being in the great wheel aside from the Lady of Pain or The Mists. Wielding steel and spell against a creature older then either concept, in his own home plane, is useless.

Now try battling it and the insane number of pit fiends spawned from his pestering wound, created at the dawn of creation, at the same time.

What weapon, then, can the PCs realistically use to topple such a being?
If we go by Planescape- Faith.

If you convince enough planes that Evil and Hell do not exists, neither will Asmodeus. now the problem becomes defining 'enough' when there is an infinite number of Primes. . .

[hamishspence]

Depends which version. Fiendish Codex 2 asmodeus was once a divine servant. Pre-great wheel entities like the baenaloths or the draeden may rival even him for power and age.

[Ascension]

Maybe time travel would work. Go back to the beginning and take down Asmodeus before he fully falls to evil.

'course, that opens up a whole new set of problems, but at least you'll be able to say you beat Asmodeus. Maybe.

[Grey Paladin]

The problem with this plan is that while Asmodeus was eventually corrupted, before he did he was reality's sole guardian (Sure, he had a horde of angels, but what are Solar mooks against Cthulu?) against the Far Realms and the forces of entropy.

Preventing his fall in the first place might be a better plan, though that would surely retroactively destroy the PCs (unless they hide in a place outside the reach of time) due to the time-stream changing.

[hamishspence]

More demons than Far realms, by Fiendish Codex 2. Though, Obyriths are the most Far-realmish demons.

[hamlet]

Every time I read anything about Asmodeus I wonder "Why?"

They've built him up to be so incredibly awesome that there's pretty much no chance in hell... pardon the pun... that anybody can ever last two seconds against him unless he wants them to, and then he's just humoring them to further his greater schemes. Why even bother detailing that much about him? Why not just print "ASMODEUS WINS" on the inside cover of every PHB?

Which amuses me endlessly as the original AD&D Asmodeus, while personally beatable by high level PC's, was obscenely powerful since he had the whole of the 9 Hells behind him (as long as they weren't busy backstabbing him or each other at the time). Killing him, or any other demon-lord or otherwise unique being of great power that wasn't explicitly a god, was a major production and was like to earn the PC's a major smackdown by a crafty DM.

Of course, back in the good old days, people were rife with stories about how they started at the top and worked their way through the diabolic heirarchy on every other Saturday, so . . . yeah.




I thought the one thing keeping the devils in check was the demons, and I thought the one thing that allows them to do so is their greater numbers vs. the devils' greater skill, but if Asmodeus can bleed pit fiends like there's no tomorrow, all he's got to do is cut himself up and his legions will become utterly unstoppable.

:

I believe that you are referring to the genesis of the Blood War, the ground work for which was laid way back in the original D&D supplement 3 as I recall. Essentially, it's based on the premise that Gygax got from Moorcock and Anderson that Chaos and Law (the two opposing forces of the universe more than Evil and Good) were in a state of constant battle for supremacy.

The reason that the evil, lower planes didn't conquer the multiverse as they probably could was simply because the more important struggle was between stagnation/order and entropy/innovation. The powers of good (both of chaos and law) caught a bit of a break here and presently do everything in their power to make sure that the Demons and Devils do not unite for whatever common cause they could find.

In the end, what made Asmodeus so tough to kill wasn't his own, personall power (which was considerable), but the fact that it was very unlikely that even the gods of good would let you even try. Doing so, or even making a serious attempt at it, would upset the balance between Law and Chaos and throw the entire multi-verse into tumult which is never a good thing.