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Lappy9000
2008-08-24, 11:57 AM
Ed. Note: Why are you looking at this cluttered, broken old thing!? There's a snazzy new version here: [link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6336978#post6336978)]

If you'd like some more info on this creation, why not send me a Private Message (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/private.php?do=newpm&u=31029)?

Thanks for the read, but please don't commit threadomancy!

-Cheers,
Lappy9000


http://th63.deviantart.com/fs16/300W/i/2007/197/0/9/Nice_Weapon_by_e_melo.jpg
-A symbol of elemental power takes a moment to pose after a swift victory.

Property of e-melo (http://e-melo.deviantart.com/). Used with Permission.

(ed. note: since half-dragons, half-elementals and such don't exist in my campaign setting, a symbol can basically give a character many of the benefits of the half-templates without the nightmares about inter-species relations on the part of their parents)

The symbol is named as such for her devotion to an ancient source of arcane magic. Through a ceremonial rite, she becomes a physical representation of the power granted to her through her legacy of arcane power, gaining magical prowess beyond any mundane fighter. Often fierce and exotic, a symbol stands out among the ordinary crowd with their powerful demeanors and striking appearances.
Adventurers: Most symbols take up the mantle of an adventurer in order to further their Arcane Legacy ability, becoming one step closer to their final transformation. The unique skills of a symbol make them appealing to military powers, and many symbols gladly accept such roles. During a battle, it is not uncommon to find a symbol on the front lines with the fighters, only to drop back later and join the wizards from the back of the company.
Characteristics: A symbol is essentially a martial warrior with arcane abilities as well. The Legacy rite that a symbol has dedicated her to both protects her and grants her powers that no other martial class can duplicate. Her Captivating Auras help her allies on the front lines, and her spellcasting provides backup for herself or her companions. While not as sturdy as a fighter or a barbarian, a symbol can nevertheless pull her weight in a fight, leaving her as an essential member to any team.
Alignment: A symbol can be of any alignment, although some have preconceptions regarding their alliances. For example, a symbol taking the Draconic Heritage rite would most likely emulate the alignment of one of the true dragons.
Background: All symbols are united by the powers that have been granted them. Some have been raised by dragons as exarches; others have been blessed by elemental or fey magic, while others still have delved into the lost arcane lore of the giants.
Races: Any race can be a symbol, and every race has some members who are attracted to the powers that a symbol gains.
Other Classes: In combat, symbols serve as powerful martial combatants, delivering powerful blows with regular melee attacks as well as using natural weaponry or magic. Symbols also serve minor support roles, as their Captivating Auras grant resistances and healing to all of their allies within twenty feet.

The Symbol
Symbols have the following game statistics.
Abilities: Charisma adds to the exotic appeal of symbols, as well as allowing her to cast spells. Being a martial class, Strength is important as well as Dexterity, for symbols lack the heavy armor of other sturdy brawlers.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d10

Table: The Symbol
{table=head]
Level |
BAB |
Fort Save |
Ref Save|
Will Save |
Special|
1st|
2nd|
3rd|
4th|
Auras Known

1st | +1 |
+2 |
+2 |
+0 | Captivating Aura +1, Arcane Legacy |
- |
- |
- |
- |
1

2nd | +2 |
+3 |
+3 |
+0 | Armored Mage (light armor) |
- |
- |
- |
- |
1

3rd | +3 |
+3 |
+3 |
+1 | Arcane Legacy |
1+1 |
- |
- |
- |
1

4th| +4 |
+4 |
+4 |
+1 | Physical Manifestation (minor) |
1+1 |
- |
- |
- |
2

5th| +5 |
+4 |
+4 |
+1 | Captivating Aura +2 |
1+1 |
- |
- |
- |
2

6th| +6/+1 |
+5 |
+5 |
+2 | Arcane Legacy |
2+2 |
1+1 |
- |
- |
2

7th| +7/+2 |
+5 |
+5 |
+2 | Armored Mage (medium armor) |
2+2 |
1+1 |
- |
- |
3

8th| +8/+3 |
+6 |
+6 |
+2 | Physical Manifestation (minor) |
2+2 |
1+1 |
- |
- |
3

9th| +9/+4 |
+6 |
+6 |
+3 | Arcane Legacy |
3+3 |
2+2 |
1+1 |
- |
3

10th| +10/+5 |
+7 |
+7 |
+3 | Captivating Aura +3 |
3+3 |
2+2 |
1+1 |
- |
4

11th| +11/+6/+1 |
+7 |
+7 |
+3 | |
3+3 |
2+2 |
1+1 |
- |
4

12th| +12/+7/+2 |
+8 |
+8 |
+4 | Physical Manifestation (major), Arcane Legacy |
4+4 |
3+3 |
2+2 |
1+1 |
4

13th| +13/+8/+3|
+8 |
+8 |
+4 | |
4+4 |
3+3 |
2+2 |
1+1 |
5

14th| +14/+9/+4 |
+9 |
+9 |
+4 | |
4+4 |
3+3 |
2+2 |
1+1 |
5

15th| +15/+10/+5 |
+9 |
+9 |
+5 | Captivating Aura +4, Arcane Legacy |
5+5 |
4+4 |
3+3 |
2+2 |
5

16th| +16/+11/+6/+1 |
+10 |
+10 |
+5 | Physical Manifestation (major) |
5+5 |
4+4 |
3+3 |
2+2 |
6

17th| +17/+12/+7/+2 |
+10 |
+10 |
+5 | |
5+5 |
4+4 |
3+3 |
2+2 |
6

18th| +18/+13/+8/+3 |
+11 |
+11 |
+6 | Arcane Legacy |
6+6 |
5+5 |
4+4 |
3+3 |
6

19th| +19/+14/+9/+4 |
+11 |
+11 |
+6 | |
6+6 |
5+5 |
4+4 |
3+3 |
7

20th| +20/+15/+10/+5 |
+12 |
+12 |
+6 | Captivating Aura +5, Final Transformation |
6+6 |
5+5 |
4+4 |
3+3 |
7
[/table]

Table: Symbol Spells Known 1
{table=head]
Level|
1st|
2nd|
3rd |
4th

1st |
-|
-|
-|
-

2nd |
-|
-|
-|
-

3rd|
1+1|
-|
-|
-

4th|
1+1|
-|
-|
-

5th|
1+1|
-|
-|
-

6th|
2+2|
1+1|
-|
-

7th|
2+2|
1+1|
-|
-

8th|
2+2|
1+1|
-|
-

9th|
3+3|
2+2|
1+1|
-

10th|
3+3|
2+2|
1+1|
-

11th|
3+3|
2+2|
1+1|
-

12th|
4+4|
3+3|
2+2|
1+1

13th|
4+4|
3+3|
2+2|
1+1

14th|
4+4|
3+3|
2+2|
1+1

15th|
4+5|
4+4|
3+3|
2+2

16th|
4+5|
4+4|
3+3|
2+2

17th|
4+5|
4+4|
3+3|
2+2


18th|
4+6|
4+5|
4+4|
3+3

19th|
4+6|
4+5|
4+4|
3+3

20th|
4+6|
4+5|
4+4|
3+3
[/table]
1 In addition to the stated number of spells per day for 1st- through 4th-level evocation spells, a symbol gets an additional spell for every third level, starting at 3rd, which are picked from the list of spells available through the symbol's Arcane Legacy rite. The "+1" in the entries on this table represents that spell.

Class Skills
The symbol's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Arcana, Dungeoneering) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (2+Int Modifier) x 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2+Int Modifier.

Class Features
All the following are class features of the symbol.

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: Symbols are proficient with all simple weapons, martial weapons, and up to two exotic weapons of choice. Symbols are proficient with light and medium armor, as well as light shields.

Bonus Languages: A symbol pick one of the following languages to substitute for one of the bonus languages available to the race, depending on her Arcane Legacy.

Rite of Draconic Heritage: Draconic.
Rite of Elemental Power: Aquan, Auran, Ingan, or Terran.
Rite of Fey Shadow: Sylvan.
Rite of Giant's Legacy: Giant.

Captivating Aura (Su): The symbol and all of her allies within a 20’ radius gain benefits from one of the following Auras. These may be activated, suppressed, or swapped as a Swift Action. Only one Aura may be active at a time. The Auras have no duration, though the symbol must be conscious. The number of Auras a symbol has access to is based on her level.


Energy Shield: if any subject is struck with a Natural Attack or a non-reach weapon, the attacker takes (2 * N) damage of an Elemental type.
Power: subjects melee attacks do +N damage.
Presence: subjects gain +N on Bluff, Diplomacy, & Intimidate checks.
Resistance: all subjects gain Resistance (5 * N) to an Elemental type.
Senses: subjects gain +N on Listen, Spot, & Initiative checks.
Toughness: subjects gain Damage Reduction (N) / magic.
Vigor: subjects gain Fast Healing (N) when below half normal hit-points.
(ed. note: Elemental Types are Acid, Electrical, Fire, Ice, and Water)

Arcane Legacy (Su): A symbol gains her arcane powers through a ceremonial rite to a totem of ancient arcane power. A symbol chooses one of the following arcane legacy rites at first level and cannot change it thereafter: Rite of Draconic Heritage, Rite of Elemental Power, Rite of Fey Shadow, or Rite of Giant’s Legacy. A symbol casts these with a caster level equal to her symbol level.


Rite of Draconic Heritage:
1st Level: Ability to cast Detect Magic, Flare, and Resistance 1/day as supernatural ability.
3rd Level: Add Cause Fear, Color Spray, Command, Expeditious Retreat, Feather Fall, Jump, Magic Weapon, or Reduce Person to list of 1st-level spells.
6th Level: Pick additional 1st-level spell from previous level. Add Bear’s Endurance, Bull’s Strength, Cat's Grace, Eagle's Splendor, Fox’s Cunning, Levitate, or Owl's Wisdom to list of known 2nd-level spells.
9th Level: Pick additional 1st-level and 2nd-level spell from previous level. Add Greater Magic Weapon, Haste, Keen Edge, Magic Vestment, Slow, or Water Breathing to list of known 3rd-level spells.
12th Level: Pick additional 1st-level, 2nd-level and 3rd-level spell from previous level. Add Command Plants, Fear, Giant Vermin, Reduce Person Mass, or Rusting Grasp to list of known 4th-level spells.
15th Level: Pick additional 1st-level, 2nd-level, 3rd-level, and 4th-level spell from previous level.
18th Level: Pick additional 1st-level, 2nd-level, 3rd-level, and 4th-level spell from previous level.


Rite of Elemental Power:
1st Level: Ability to cast Create Water, Detect Poison, and Flare 1/day as supernatural ability.
3rd Level: Add Alarm, Chill Touch, Endure Elements, Grease, Magic Stone, Obscuring Mist, Pass without Trace, Produce Flame to list of known 1st-level spells.
6th Level: Pick additional 1st-level spell from previous level. Add Chill Metal, Flame Blade, Flaming Sphere, Fog Cloud, Heat Metal, Soften Earth and Stone, Wind Wall to list of known 2nd-level spells.
9th Level: Pick additional 1st-level and 2nd-level spell from previous level. Add Call Lightning, Meld into Stone, Gaseous Form, Sleet Storm, Stone Shape, or Water Breathing to list of known 3rd-level spells.
12th Level: Pick additional 1st-level, 2nd-level and 3rd-level spell from previous level. Add Air Walk, Control Water, Ice Storm, Spike Stones, or Stone Skin to list of known 4th-level spells.
15th Level: Pick additional 1st-level, 2nd-level, 3rd-level, and 4th-level spell from previous level.
18th Level: Pick additional 1st-level, 2nd-level, 3rd-level, and 4th-level spell from previous level.


Rite of Fey Shadow:
1st Level: Ability to cast Ghost Sound, Lullaby, and Message 1/day as supernatural ability.
3rd Level: Add Disguise Self, Expeditious Retreat, Hypnotism, Pass without Trace, Ray of Enfeeblement, Silent Image, Sleep, or Ventriloquism to list of known 1st-level spells.
6th Level: Pick additional 1st-level spell from previous level. Add Blur, Darkness, Detect Thoughts, Invisibility, Minor Image, Mirror Image, or See Invisibility to list of known 2nd-level spells.
9th Level: Pick additional 1st-level and 2nd-level spell from previous level. Add Blink, Deep Slumber, Displacement, Invisibility Sphere, Major Image, or Nondetection to list of known 3rd-level spells.
12th Level: Pick additional 1st-level, 2nd-level and 3rd-level spell from previous level. Add Hallucinatory Terrain, Illusionary Wall, Invisibility Greater, Scrying, or Shadow Conjuration to list of known 4th-level spells.
15th Level: Pick additional 1st-level, 2nd-level, 3rd-level, and 4th-level spell from previous level.
18th Level: Pick additional 1st-level, 2nd-level, 3rd-level, and 4th-level spell from previous level.


Rite of Giant's Legacy

1st Level: Ability to cast Daze, Detect Magic, and Read Magic 1/day as supernatural ability.
3rd Level: Add Enlarge Person, Longstrider, Mage Armor, Magic Fang, Mount, Shied, Summon Monster II, or Unseen Servant to list of known 1st-level spells.
6th Level: Pick additional 1st-level spell from previous level. Add Command Undead, Daze Monster, Glitterdust, Spectral Hand, Summon Monster III, or Summon Swarm, or Web to list of known 2nd-level spells.
9th Level: Pick additional 1st-level and 2nd-level spell from previous level. Add Dominate Animal, Halt Undead, Hold Person, Sleet Storm, Stinking Cloud, or Summon Monster IV to list of known 3rd-level spells.
12th Level: Pick additional 1st-level, 2nd-level and 3rd-level spell from previous level. Add Dimension Door, Enlarge Person Mass, Evard's Black Tentacles, Globe of Invulnerability Lesser, or Summom Monster V to list of known 4th-level spells.
15th Level: Pick additional 1st-level, 2nd-level, 3rd-level, and 4th-level spell from previous level.
18th Level: Pick additional 1st-level, 2nd-level, 3rd-level, and 4th-level spell from previous level.

Armored Mage: At 2nd level, a symbol gains the ability to ignore arcane spell failure while wearing light armor and wielding light shields, and at 7th level she can ignore arcane spell failure for medium armor. Skill check penalties for wearing armor still apply.

Spells: Beginning at 3rd level, a symbol gains the ability to cast a small number of arcane spells which are drawn from the evocation school of the sorcerer/wizard spell list. She can cast any spell she knows without preparing it ahead of time. To cast a spell, a symbol must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a symbol’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the symbol’s Charisma modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a symbol can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Symbol.

A symbol’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A symbol begins play without a single spell, although she gains additional spells through her Arcane Legacy. At each new symbol level, she gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Symbol Spells known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a symbol knows is not affected by her Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Symbol Spells known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, but are restricted to the Evocation school of magic.

Unlike a wizard or a cleric, a symbol need not prepare her spells in advance. She can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming she has not yet used up her spells per day for that spell level. She does not have to decide ahead of time which spells she’ll cast. Spells cast by a symbol have no material, verbal, focus, or experience components; only a somatic compoments exists for all spells (usually involving pointing at the target of the spell) and a symbol needs at least one hand free in order to cast them.

Physical Manifestation (Ex): Making a pact through a ceremonial rite flooded the symbol with a torrent of arcane energy. After some time, that very magical power has begun to affect the symbol’s physical appearance. At 4th and 8th level, pick a minor physical manifestation, gaining the Altered Apperance physical manifestation automatically. At 12th and 16th level, pick a major physical manifestation. Each manifestation can be taken only once.


Minor Physical Manifestations:
Altered Apperance (Automatic): Becoming a symbol has given you a more exotic appearance. This change is purely cosmetic and can be major or relatively insignificant, and is usually (but not necessarily) based upon their Arcane Legacy rite. For example, a symbol of Draconic Heritage may have dusty-red scales, lizard-like eyes, and bright orange hair. The altered appearance of a symbol varies greatly from individual to individual. This ability is technically limited only by imagination, however it's the DM's call as to what constitutes a "purely cosmetic change." In addition, this ability grants you a +2 circumstance bonus on Diplomacy checks.

Dagger Fangs: A symbol gains a bite attack if she does not already have one. A bite deals 1d6 points of damage for a Medium creature, and 1d4 points of damage for a Small creature. You are considered proficient with this attack. When making a full attack, you use her full base attack bonus with her bite attack. In addition, this ability grants you a +2 circumstance bonus on Intimidate checks.

Enhanced Reflexes: If a symbol makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. You keep this ability even if wearing light, medium, heavy armor, or light shields. If you are unconscious or otherwise helpless, you do not gain the benefit of enhanced reflexes. In addition, this ability grants you a +2 circumstance bonus on Move Silently checks.

Fast Movement: A symbol gains a +10 enhancement bonus on her base speed. You keeps this ability even if wearing light, medium, or heavy armor. In addition, this ability grants you a +2 circumstance bonus on Jump checks.

Goliath Slam: A symbol gains two slam attacks if she does not already have them. Each slam deals 1d4 points of damage for a Medium creature, and 1d3 points of damage for a Small creature. You are considered proficient with these attacks. When making a full attack, you takes a -5 penalty on slam attacks. In addition, this ability grants you a +2 circumstance bonus on Climb checks.

Razor Claws: A symbol gains two claw attacks if she does not already have them. Each claw deals 1d4 points of damage for a Medium creature, and 1d3 points of damage for a Small creature. You are considered proficient with these attacks. When making a full attack, you takes a -5 penalty on claw attacks. In addition, this ability grants you a +2 circumstance bonus on Sleight of Hand checks.

Toughened: A symbol's body becomes more resilient to damage, giving her a +1/every additional four symbol levels natural armor bonus to her Armor Class. In addition, this ability grants you a +2 circumstance bonus on Concentrate checks.


Major Physical Manifestations:

Energy Blast: A symbol can unleash a blast of elemental power once per day. This 20-foot-radius burst does 1d6 points of damage of a chosen energy type (acid, electricity, fire, ice, water) per caster level. Those caught in the area of the blast receive a Reflex save for half damage. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 your symbol level + your Charisma modifier. This power can be used a number of times per day equal to your Charisma modifier. This power has a range of 60 feet.

Energy Resistance: A symbol gains Energy Resistance 10 to a single energy (acid, electricity, fire, ice, or water) type of her choosing.

Faded Form: At symbol can become incorporeal for 1 round per caster level. While in this form, you gain the incorporeal subtype but your spells and attacks do not affect corporeal creatures. This power can be used a number of times per day equal to your Charisma modifier.

Flawless Soul: A symbol becomes immune to diseases and poisons of all kinds, including magical ones, such as Mummy Rot and the Whitelight Shakes.

Frightful Presence: This ability takes effect automatically whenever you make a full attack. Creatures within 30' are subject to the effect if they are below your symbol level (or if they have fewer HD). A potentially affected creature that succeeds on the Will Save (DC 10+ 1/2 symbol levels +the your Charisma modifier) remains immune to your frightful presence for 24 hours. On a failure, creatures with panicked for 4d6 rounds and those with 5 or more HD become shaken for 4d6 rounds.

Great Resolve: A symbol can her Charisma modifier (if any) to Fortitude and Will saves.

Wings: A symbol grows a set of wings (these can be bird wings, draconic wings, wings of steel, bat wings, wings of translucent color, insect wings, or whatever the symbol deems the wings to look like. However, once picked, the details of the wings cannot be changed). She may now fly at a speed of 60 feet with Good maneuverability. If carrying a medium load, her speed is reduced to 40 feet with Average maneuverability. A symbol cannot fly when carrying a heavy load.

Final Transformation (Ex): Upon reaching 20th level, a symbol has received the full benefit of her arcane legacy and physical manifestation. She may pick an additional minor and major physical manifestation from a previous level. In addition, a symbol gains one of the following in accordance with their Legacy Rite.

Rite of Draconic Heritage: Your draconic heritage becomes manifest. You gain immunity to paralysis, sleep, and damage of a chosen energy type (acid, electricity, fire, ice, or water). You also gain blindsense 60 feet.

Rite of Elemental Power: Elemental power surges through your body. You gain immunity to sneak attacks, critical hits, and damage of a chosen energy type (acid, electricity, fire, ice, or water).

Rite of Fey Shadow: Your soul becomes one with the world of the fey. You gain immunity to poison and DR 10/cold iron. Creatures of the animal type do not attack you unless compelled to do so through magic. Once per day, you can cast Shadow Walk as a bonus spell.

Rite of Giant's Legacy: Your body increases in size to match the giantkin of old. Whenever you are subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), you treated as one size category larger if doing so is advantageous to you. You are also considered to be one size larger when determining special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect you. You are also able to use larger sized weapons without penalty. However, your space and reach remain those of a creature of your actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change your size category. You also gain immunity to damage of a chosen energy type (acid, electricity, fire, ice, or water).

Lappy9000
2008-08-25, 09:21 AM
My bumps have no shame.

Perhaps I should explain one of the reasons for this class. In my campaign setting, half-dragons, half-elementals, half-chairs, don't exist because they annoy me and most of them have level adjustments (:smallyuk:). The symbol allows some players to look like a dragon, cool shadowy-fey-guy, etc without the headache of half-templates.

And besides, I need another martial class.

Can't escape the shameless bumping, though.

JackMage666
2008-08-25, 09:53 AM
I don't believe this is your first class, because it seems pretty solid. You're right that it's not powerful (about Paladin level as you said), so it's all good.

Though, I would personally just take Duskblade, myself.

RTGoodman
2008-08-25, 10:49 AM
So, basically it's an arcane paladin with a bit of Marshal (or Dragon Shaman) thrown in for good measeure.

Seems good to me, but I do have one problem - I have no idea what the heck is going on with spellcasting on your table and stuff. :smalltongue: Are the three columns right before Auras Known the spells per day or spells known or what? From the chart, it looks like the start with spellcasting ability at level 3, but the spellcasting entry says they start at level 6 and the four different Legacies start adding spells known at 1st level!

Also, the way they pick spells (some at a certain level, then some higher-level ones, then some lower-level ones with new options) seems weird to me, but I think it could work.

Oh, and you might want to add Spellcraft to the list of class skills - I can't think of an arcane caster that doesn't have it. (Also, it's necessary for Epic play, though I don't know if you're into that.) I might also consider improving the Armored Mage ability over time (like the Duskblade does), gaining medium armor and light shields, at least.

JackMage666
2008-08-25, 11:12 AM
RTG is right, I missed that. Also, you'll want to clarify their caster level (I'd recommend 1/2 class level, from the looks of it.)

Lappy9000
2008-08-25, 03:37 PM
Thanks, guys. I'll add in the Spellcraft and Armored Mage (medium) in right away, (I think heavy would be a bit much).

About the spellcasting, it is a bit wonky, but the way it works is that they basically have Paladin-progression spellcasting (mostly) but only in Evocation spells. Now, that is extremely limited, even for a martial class. Additional spells are granted like a cleric's through the Arcane Legacy feature.

It's not exact, but:
Dragon = Transmutation
Elemental = Grab bag of druid-y stuff
Fey = Illusion
Giant = Conjuration

So, a symbol is able to cast spells to back up her buddies on the front line, and can specialize in those spells. Hope that clarifies things a little. Obviously I need to re-write the spells :smallconfused:

Lappy9000
2008-08-25, 04:28 PM
Okay, changed the 1st-level rite spells into spells as supernatural ability to avoid confusion.

Also added in Armored Mage (medium armor), proficiency with medium armor, as well as Spellcraft as class skill. Threw in a Spells Known table, too, and fixed up some confusion in the Spells description.


I don't believe this is your first class, because it seems pretty solid.

Thanks :smallbiggrin:
I just hide the fact that I have absolutely no idea what I'm doing behind well-organized tables.

Lappy9000
2008-09-30, 07:17 PM
http://www.ricesigns.com/real_pictures/bump_signs.jpg

Sorry, for the uber-bump, but I'd really like to get some feedback in regards to the changes I've made to the symbol class. If you're interested, I'll even start you off:

*What do you think of the magic system used by symbols?
*How powerful are they in regards to the other martial classes?
*How powerful are they in regards to all of the core classes?
*Anything that just looks.....off?

Thanks you much!

DracoDei
2008-09-30, 07:49 PM
without the nightmares about inter-species relations on the part of their parents

Don't let any of my Wing Dragons or their families hear you say that...

AstralFire
2008-09-30, 08:04 PM
Ooh, this looks pretty (nice art) and cool. I like it! Points for including Giant, they're often left out of mystical things. No Celestial/Abyssal?

Is the Symbol's caster level = class level (as Bard, Wizard) or half class level (as Paladin, Ranger?)

The biggest issue I see off-hand is that your evocation spells are... well, nearly worthless. I'm no splat master, granted, but from core - there's not much writing home about. I would consider allowing them to pick some 4th and 5th level evocation stuff to take, at least. That and/or boost Energy Blast, which is pretty weak. 10d6 damage at 20 is almost negligible. (I'd use Cha-based DCs for everything, too, to lower MAD.)

Lappy9000
2008-09-30, 08:10 PM
Ooh, this looks pretty (nice art) and cool. I like it! Points for including Giant, they're often left out of mystical things. No Celestial/Abyssal?

Is the Symbol's caster level = class level (as Bard, Wizard) or half class level (as Paladin, Ranger?)

The biggest issue I see off-hand is that your evocation spells are... well, nearly worthless. I'm no splat master, granted, but from core - there's not much writing home about. I would consider allowing them to pick some 4th and 5th level evocation stuff to take, at least. That and/or boost Energy Blast, which is pretty weak. 10d6 damage at 20 is almost negligible. (I'd use Cha-based DCs for everything, too, to lower MAD.)

Ah, thank you. I was considering adding 4th level spells (at least to round things out), but didn't for fear of pushing them 'over the top' in regards to power.

Celestial/Abyssal dips a bit too far into the divine magics; symbols are decidedly arcane.

The caster level was a bit funky. It was originally at 1/2 level before third or something weird. It...was before a major overhaul had taken place. I'll fix that now. I've noticed that the Major Manifestations are ironically weak.

AstralFire
2008-09-30, 08:13 PM
If you make them half-caster level, their spells as a whole pretty much suck.

You might want to follow Duskblade as a template here rather than Hexblade, Paladin and Ranger, since the Duskblade's on the whole a better built class. That would push you up to 5th level spells and Caster 20, but the Duskblade's Full Attack Arcane Channel and Swift Casting is enough to put anything you could reasonably come up with to shame, since those are really powerful abilities. Alternatively, give them some cool blasty abilities for their Major Manifestations and focus on the spell lists being buffing and utility so that they don't hurt too much for their low caster level.

Lappy9000
2008-09-30, 09:09 PM
If you make them half-caster level, their spells as a whole pretty much suck.

You might want to follow Duskblade as a template here rather than Hexblade, Paladin and Ranger, since the Duskblade's on the whole a better built class. That would push you up to 5th level spells and Caster 20, but the Duskblade's Full Attack Arcane Channel and Swift Casting is enough to put anything you could reasonably come up with to shame, since those are really powerful abilities. Alternatively, give them some cool blasty abilities for their Major Manifestations and focus on the spell lists being buffing and utility so that they don't hurt too much for their low caster level.

Keep in mind, though, that their Arcane Legacies grant them buffing and utility spells. Picking one just narrows down which ones they receive. Elemental Power is a bit more blasty, but the rest are transmutation, conjuration, and illusion. The premise is that they can only learn evocation, but are granted the utility casting through a greater power(And, ironically, I was using the duskblade as the inspiration; I'm not really a fan of the hexblade).

I'll definitely give them 4th level spells, but 5th may be a bit much; unlike the duskblade, symbols are a class designed to slug it out, and use magic secondarily, not a caster class that can melee.

EDIT: Duskblades are fine; I just don't find them that interesting. A fairly-balanced class that can melee fine and cast limited arcane spells...cool. Or, a class that can melee better, has a potentially greater selection of situational spells (given the arcane legacies), has a perma-buff field, and can grow wings...awesome (plus you can justify doing both in your backstory better).

Also, the lessened spell level prevents them from advancing too far, given that beefy d10 hit die. Not everyone owns Player's Handbook 2, so I didn't want to limit their spells to a certain spell list. Giving them 'Evocation spells from the sor/wiz spell list" allows for peeps without PH2 to use them, and for the folks that do own it to put the evoc to use (duskblade spells are pretty much evocation anyway).


Don't let any of my Wing Dragons or their families hear you say that...

Sorry DracoDei, I think you're a fine person/dragon, but I'm just not voting pro-species in the upcoming election.

AstralFire
2008-09-30, 09:37 PM
Right; but for example, Greater Magic Weapon at half-caster level is kind of meh. Haste is nice, sure... but Summon Monster III at levels 16-20 is at best a meat shield. And the meat is bacon. :smalleek:

Lappy9000
2008-09-30, 09:39 PM
Right; but for example, Greater Magic Weapon at half-caster level is kind of meh. Haste is nice, sure...

Oh no, it'll definitely be full-caster level. I'm just sorting throught the nigtmare of reformatting the table at the moment.

AstralFire
2008-09-30, 09:41 PM
Oh no, it'll definitely be full-caster level. I'm just sorting throught the nigtmare of reformatting the table at the moment.

Ah, okay. That was one of my big concerns. I still think some spells should be looked at shifting levels, though. I don't think the Fire Orb spells are too much for them to keep around, and as noted, the comment about Summon Bacon III. >.>

Lappy9000
2008-09-30, 09:43 PM
Ah, okay. That was one of my big concerns. I still think some spells should be looked at shifting levels, though. I don't think the Fire Orb spells are too much for them to keep around, and as noted, the comment about Summon Bacon III. >.>

That is about as much they can be of use some times (although a fiendish dire bat can be a great landing platform, should the time call for it). Yes, the granted spells will be beefed up as well.

AstralFire
2008-09-30, 09:46 PM
Looking forward to it. I'll pop by tomorrow. Great class, remember that if I'm criticizing something it's because I cared enough to actually pay attention. :D

Lappy9000
2008-09-30, 09:47 PM
Looking forward to it. I'll pop by tomorrow. Great class, remember that if I'm criticizing something it's because I cared enough to actually pay attention. :D

I know, it's quite the compliment, nowadays :smallbiggrin:
Thanks for your help. It'll be done in the morning.

Fako
2008-10-01, 07:25 PM
I like it... I normally don't like the "gish" classes...but this one is too cool to resist. :smallbiggrin:

Ok, flattery aside :smallwink: I have a couple questions/comments:

What is with the layout of the Spells Per Day table? Does a "1+1" mean that you can cast one spell from your normal spell list and one spell from your heritage spell list? If not, could you clarify?

While it may never come up, are you allowed to take one or two minor transformations instead of a major transformation? I know I'd prefer two more doses of Fast Movement instead of a Breath Weapon...

On the topic of Transformations, the Final Transformation seems a bit weak for a capstone... would you be offended if I came up with another possibility? My idea is to provide a Transformation unique to each power source, complete with type change and such...

Lappy9000
2008-10-01, 08:24 PM
I like it... I normally don't like the "gish" classes...but this one is too cool to resist. :smallbiggrin:

Ok, flattery aside :smallwink: I have a couple questions/comments:

What is with the layout of the Spells Per Day table? Does a "1+1" mean that you can cast one spell from your normal spell list and one spell from your heritage spell list? If not, could you clarify?

While it may never come up, are you allowed to take one or two minor transformations instead of a major transformation? I know I'd prefer two more doses of Fast Movement instead of a Breath Weapon...

On the topic of Transformations, the Final Transformation seems a bit weak for a capstone... would you be offended if I came up with another possibility? My idea is to provide a Transformation unique to each power source, complete with type change and such...

...Gish?

Anyway, thanks for the compliments, and of course I don't mind your input, silly!

Your first question is answered right under the table; yes, you gain an evocation spell as a normal caster, and the "+1" represents the legacy spell.

In addition to the stated number of spells per day for 1st- through 4th-level evocation spells, a symbol gets an additional spell for every third level, starting at 3rd, which are picked from the list of spells available through the symbol's Arcane Legacy rite. The "+1" in the entries on this table represents that spell.

For the second question:

Physical Manifestation (Ex): Making a pact through a ceremonial rite flooded the symbol with a torrent of arcane energy. After some time, that very magical power has begun to affect the symbol’s physical appearance. At 4th and 8th level, pick a minor physical manifestation, gaining the Altered Apperance physical manifestation automatically. At 12th and 16th level, pick a major physical manifestation. Each manifestation can be taken only once. So no, sorry :smallredface:

And yes, I realize that Final Transformation is a bit of a weak capstone; a type change is a good idea. I may just add that now.

The original plan was to make the paths determine a bit more than spells; a Rite of Draconic Heritage would determine everything from spells, to class features. Then I realized that the idea was dumb because it would clutter up the interface, and railroad the player into a certain niche. So I said, heck, if you want to play a Conjuration-Casting martial character with claws, purple skin, an energy blast (It's not technically a breath weapon, not having to come from the breath, even though it functions the same way) of electricity with construct wings, and a orc double-axe? Go for it.

However, I may have just created a class of Mary-Sues (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue) :smalleek:
Mary-Sue, 6th-level Symbol: "I have color-changing eyes, the ability to cast magic and fight spells to help in almost any situation, and I'm going to get wings soon to. Plus I'm super-duper charismatic and unnaturally beuteful as well."

AstralFire
2008-10-01, 08:32 PM
The only difference between a Mary Sue and most normal protagonists is that the latter is actually liked whereas the former just creates a fantasy world in which she is liked.

A gish is a martial caster class.

Lappy9000
2008-10-01, 08:37 PM
The only difference between a Mary Sue and most normal protagonists is that the latter is actually liked whereas the former just creates a fantasy world in which she is liked.

A gish is a martial caster class.

Thank you, my conscious is appeased. If I ever did have a Mary-Sue in my campaign, they would have a flaw; even if it was being so perfect that every NPC hates them :smallamused:

And thanks for clearing up the Gish. In the words of so many many people on the interweb, "i r n00b."

EDIT:

On the topic of Transformations, the Final Transformation seems a bit weak for a capstone... would you be offended if I came up with another possibility? My idea is to provide a Transformation unique to each power source, complete with type change and such...

Actually, I dunno. Changing into a creature of Dragon Type is a heck of a lot better than changing to a creature of the Fey Type.

Fako
2008-10-04, 05:16 PM
Actually, I dunno. Changing into a creature of Dragon Type is a heck of a lot better than changing to a creature of the Fey Type.

Actually, the Elemental type is the strongest option here, as it provides immunity to critical hits... however, the Dragon type is stronger than Fey when it comes to HP, Saves, etc., so I simply had the transformation ignore those factors... :smallbiggrin:

Here's the ideas I had...not sure on balance, since that isn't my forte :smallredface:

Final Transformation

Draconic Heritage
You gain the cunning and presence of the Dragons you emulate. Your type changes to Dragon (do not recalculate HP, Saves, Skills, or BAB), your Intelligence score permanently increases by 4 points, and you gain the following special ability and quality:

Breath Weapon(Su): Choose an element (acid, sonic, fire, ice, electricity), and a shape (60’ line or 30’ cone). Once chosen, it can never be changed.
You gain a breath weapon of the chosen element and shape. It deals 1d6 damage for every two Symbol levels you possess, and allows a Reflex save (DC 10 + ½ your Symbol levels + your Con Mod) for half damage. If you have taken the Energy Blast Major Transformation your breath weapon instead deals 2d6 damage for every three levels you possess (16d6 at level 20 instead of 10d6) and the save DC increases by 2. However, you lose access to your Energy Blast.
Once you use your breath weapon, you must wait 1d4 rounds before you can use it again.
Frightful Presence(Su): The Draconic Symbol is a fearful creature on the battlefield, striking terror into the hearts of anyone foolish enough to challenge him. Whenever you attack or charge, all enemies with less HD than you within 60’ of you must succeed on a Will save (DC 10 + ½ your Symbol levels + your Cha Mod) or be shaken for 4d6 rounds. Creatures with 4 HD or less are instead Panicked for 4d6 rounds. Any creature who succeeds on their Will save becomes immune to your Frightful Presence for 24 hours.

Elemental Power
The primal energies of the Elementals flow through your body, providing you with the grace of air, the fluidity of water, the speed of fire, and the strength of earth. Your type changes to Elemental (do not recalculate HP, Saves, Skills, or BAB, and you do not lose the ability to be raised or resurrected), your Dexterity score permanently increases by 4 points, and you gain the following special ability and qualities:

Energy Resistance(Ex): You gain energy resistance 10 against all energy types. If you had taken the Energy Resistance Major Transformation, you gain immunity to the energy type you chose for it.
Primal Speed(Ex): You gain a 10’ racial bonus to all movement modes you possess.
Elemental Strike(Su): You charge your body with the power of an Elemental plane, empowering your strikes. As a swift action, you can choose to add 2d6 damage of one energy type (fire, ice, lightning, sonic, or acid) to all attacks you make in the next 5 rounds. If you use this ability while it is already active, the original effect is dispelled. Deactivating this ability is a free action.

Fey Shadow
The ancient courts of the fey grant you their powers of deception and misdirection. Your type changes to Fey (do not recalculate HP, Saves, Skills, or BAB), your Charisma score permanently increases by 4 points, and you gain the following special qualities:

Greater Invisibility(Su): You are permanently under the effects of Greater Invisibility. You can suppress or resume this ability as a swift action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity. If you have chosen Greater Invisibility as one of your Legacy spells, you may replace it for another Legacy spell of the same level if you wish.
Silver Tongue(Ex): You gain a +10 racial bonus to all Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate checks you make. If you have the Leadership feat, your ability to lie and deceive allows you to ignore all penalties suffered from causing the death of cohorts.
Tongues(Su): You are permanently under the effects of a Tongues spell.

Giant’s Legacy
Your body pulses with the strength of the giants. Your type changes to Giant (do not recalculate HP, Saves, Skills, or BAB), your Strength score permanently increases by 4 points, and you gain the following special qualities:

Powerful Build(Ex): You gain the Powerful Build racial trait, which lets you function in many ways as if you were one size category larger. Whenever you are subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), you are treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to you. You are also considered one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect you. You can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, your space and reach remain those of a creature of your original size. Powerful build stacks with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change your size category.
Bonus Feats: You gain Rock Hurling (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Rock_Hurling,RS)and Fling Foe (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Fling_Enemy,RS) as bonus feats.

Lappy9000
2008-10-06, 10:40 PM
Cool stuff.

Maybe one or two of those traits, but getting ALL of them at once (some of which include ability boosts) seems rather overpowered.

I've actually got someone playing a 6th-level elven symbol right now; I'll use the opportunity to gage balance compared to the other party members. I...will get back. Hey, though, thanks for your help so far, I really appreciate it :smallbiggrin:

And if you enjoyed the Symbol class, be sure to check out its page in the Lords of Mechanus campaign setting!


[V Shameless Plug V]------[]=

Lappy9000
2008-11-22, 10:48 AM
Not a shameless bump this time; I've actually updated stuff.

Energy Blast is significantly cooler;
Great Resolve is also more useful;
Added in Faded Form;
Enhanced Reflexes updated to include light shields;
There were probably some grammar and spelling errors, too;
Capstone abilities are now actually awesome :smallbiggrin:

As always, Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly, if'n you don't mind!

Lappy9000
2008-11-23, 01:35 PM
C'mon dudes, gotten about 100 views in the last 24 hours. And only 84 of them were me :smallwink:

If noone really does have anything else to say, I'll be able to call this finished, I suppose :smallsmile: