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Telonius
2008-08-28, 12:32 PM
This post comes as a result of a Gaming section advice request. Poison has never been a very good strategy for PCs. It's expensive to find, difficult to harvest, time-consuming to make, and fails more often than not. So much so, that it seems incredible that anyone would have been able to take the time to find and apply the vast amounts of poison found on many traps and assassin's weapons. To that end, I've made a little poison of my own that will warm the heart of rogues, assassins, herbalists, and savage tribes everywhere. Any comments would be welcome.

First, a minor rule change. Previously, you could harvest 1gp*your survival check worth of poison from a poisonous creature. This is simply too little poison. It makes sense that you could harvest more potent (and thus more valuable) poison from a more powerful creature of equal size; it also makes sense that a larger creature will have more poison to be harvested than a smaller creature. So, the new rule is: you can harvest 1gp*the creature's HD*survival check*the poison size modifier worth of poison from a defeated creature with the Poison ability. If harvesting poison from a plant, the amount of poison is 1gp*(survival check + 1/2 Knowledge Nature check), if you are in an environment appropriate to the plant's growth. If harvesting a mineral poison (such as arsenic), the amount of poison is 1gp*(survival check + 1/2 Knowledge Geography check).

The poison size modifier is:
{table]Creature Size | Multiplier
Fine | 1/5
Diminutive | 1/4
Tiny | 1/3
Small | 1/2
Medium | 1
Large | 2
Huge | 3
Gargantuan | 4
Colossal | 5
[/table]

Now, for the feats.

Brew Poison
Prerequisites: Craft (Poison) 5 ranks.
Benefit: You may produce poisons at an increased rate. Brewing a poison takes one day for each 1,000 gp in the cost of the poison. The character must provide the raw materials for the poison, as well as 1/25 of the cost in XP.
Normal: You can craft poisons at the rate of 10 silver * Craft check per week. No XP is expended.

Expert Poisoner
Prerequisites: Brew Poison feat, Craft (Poison) 15 ranks
Benefits: The poisons you create using the Brew Poison feats become more potent. Upon making a poison using the Brew Poison feat, you can increase the DC of your poison by making a Craft (Poison) check.
{table]Craft Check| Poison DC
9-15 |+0
16-20 |+1
21-25 |+2
26-30 |+4
31-35 |+8
[/table]

You cannot take 10 or 20 on this craft check. The check does not apply to poisons created using the normal crafting rules.

Poison Harvester
Prerequisites: Survival 10 ranks
Benefit: You are an expert at retrieving poison from defeated creatures. You can now harvest 10gp*the creature's HD*survival check*the poison size modifier worth of poison from a creature with the Poison ability. If harvesting poison from a plant, the amount of poison is 10gp*(survival check + 1/2 Knowledge Nature check). If harvesting a mineral poison, the amount of poison is 10gp*(survival check + 1/2 Knowledge Geography check).
Normal: You can harvest 1gp*the creature's HD*survival check*the poison size modifier for animal-based poisons, 1gp*(survival check + 1/2 Knowledge Nature check) for plant-based poisons, or 1gp*(survival check + 1/2 Knowledge Geography check) for mineral poisons.

Supreme Poisoner
Prerequisites: Brew Poison, Expert Poisoner, Poison Harvester, Craft (Poison) 15 ranks
Benefit: It no longer costs XP to create a poison using the Brew Poison feat.

Lastly, the PrC.
Venomsmith

Hit Die: d6

Prerequisites
Skills: Craft (Poison) 8 ranks
Feats: Brew Poison, Skill Focus: Craft (Poison)

Table: The Venomsmith
{table]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Special
1 | +0 | +2 | +2 | +0 | Poison Use
2 | +1 | +3 | +3 | +0 | Great Fortitude, Second Classic Blunder
3 | +2 | +3 | +3 | +1 | Favored Poison, Sneak Attack +1d6
4 | +3 | +4 | +4 | +1 | Poison Harvester, Never Saw it Coming
5 | +3 | +4 | +4 | +1 | Second Favored Poison
6 | +4 | +5 | +5 | +2 | Expert Poisoner, Sneak Attack +2d6
7 | +5 | +5 | +5 | +2 | Third Favored Poison, Poisonous Glare
8 | +6 | +6 | +6 | +2 | Supreme Poisoner, Evade Suspicion
9 | +6 | +6 | +6 | +3 | Fourth Favored Poison, Sneak Attack +3d6
10 | +7 | +7 | +7 | +3 | Venomblood
[/table]

Class Skills: Appraise, Balance, Bluff, Concentration, Craft (Poison), Diplomacy, Disguise, Escape Artist, Gather Information, Heal, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (Geography), Knowledge (Local), Knowledge (Nature), Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty), Move Silently, Open Lock, Perform, Profession, Sleight of Hand, Survival, Tumble, Use Rope

Skill points each level: 6 + Int modifier

Class Features

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
The Venomsmith gains proficiency with the shuriken, rapier, punching dagger, and all bows and crossbows. The Venomsmith gains no armor proficiency.

Poison Use: Venomsmiths never risk accidentally poisoning themselves when applying poison to a blade.

Great Fortitude: Venomsmiths gain the Great Fortitude feat as a bonus feat at 2nd level.

Second Classic Blunder: Venomsmiths gain a bonus equal to their Venomsmith level when using the sleight of hand skill to add poison to a drink, switch out a poisoned glass; a Bluff check intended to get the characters to look the other way while he applies poison to something; or any other such check deemed appropriate by the DM.

Favored Poison: At third level, the Venomsmith gains a Favored Poison. The Venomsmith becomes immune to the selected poison. The Venomsmith applies his Venomsmith level to all survival checks used for gathering that particular poison. Poisons made using the favored poison have their save DCs increased by 2. The Venomsmith gains a +2 bonus damage to any successful melee, ranged, or thrown weapon attacks made against the source of the Favored Poison, if the source is a creature. (For example, if the Venomsmith’s Favored Poison is Wyvern Poison, the Venomsmith gains 2 damage to successful attacks versus a Wyvern). At fifth level and every second level thereafter, may select an additional favored poison. In addition, at each such interval, the bonus damage and DC increase for any one favored poison (including the one just selected, if so desired) increase by 2.

Sneak Attack: This is exactly like the rogue ability of the same name. The extra damage dealt increases by +1d6 every third level (3rd, 6th, and 9th). If a Venomsmith gets a sneak attack bonus from another source the bonuses on damage stack.

Poison Harvester: At 4th level, the Venomsmith gains the benefits of the Poison Harvester feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites.

Never Saw it Coming: At 4th level, the Venomsmith is an expert at hit-and-run poison tactics. This ability is identical to the Mosquito’s Bite skill trick, except that the amount of rounds between the blow and the target realizing it is hit, is equal to the Venomsmith level. (A Venomsmith may choose to reduce this time if desired, at no penalty).

Expert Poisoner: At 6th level, the Venomsmith gains the Expert Poisoner feat.

Poisonous Glare: At 7th level, the Venomsmith may cast the Poison spell as a spell-like ability, as though affected by the Still and Silent spells, cast at the Venomsmith level. The Venomsmith makes a Ranged Touch attack instead of a Touch attack to deliver the spell. This ability may be used a number of times per day equal to the Venomsmith’s level. The Venomsmith must have line of sight to the target for this ability to be effective.

Supreme Poisoner: At 8th level, the Venomsmith gains the Supreme Poisoner feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites.

Evade Suspicion: At 8th level, the Venomsmith is treated as though under a continuous Undetectable Alignment spell (Caster Level = Character Level). Any attempt to detect the thoughts of the Venomsmith (such as the Detect Thoughts spell, the Read Thoughts and Mind Probe psionic powers, a Medallion of Thoughts, a Helm of Telepathy, or similar spells, powers, or items) automatically fails.

Venomblood: At 10th level, the Venomsmith has achieved a mastery of the poisoning arts to such a degree that his very blood becomes poison. He gains immunity to all poisons, magical and mundane, and may secrete a dose of any non-epic poison (except Venomblood, described below), at no cost in gold, materials, or XP. This ability takes a full-round action to accomplish, and is usable ten times per day. However, this ability does come at a cost. A Detect Poison spell will now detect the Venomsmith. The Venomsmith may be targeted with a Delay Poison spell, which now acts as a Slow spell. A Heal spell will act as a Harm spell if cast on a Venomsmith. The Purify Food and Drink spell has no effect on a living Venomsmith. The Venomblood ability does not pose a danger to any creature using a bite, claw, or other natural attack. However, any creature that tries to consume the Venomsmith (standard eating, using the Swallow Whole ability, using the Blood Drain special attack, etc.) must make a Fortitude check equal to the Venomsmith's HD + 20. If the check succeeds, the creature takes 1 point of damage per Hit Die of the Venomsmith. If the check fails, the creature is affected by Venomblood Poison (effects equivalent to a combination of Lich Dust, Ungol Dust, Insanity Mist, Black Lotus Extract, Terinav Root, and Id Moss, in addition to Nauseating the foe). A Purify Food and Drink spell cast on the dead body of a Venomsmith renders this poison ineffective.

Table: Venomblood Poison
{table] Initial Damage | Secondary Damage
2d6 Str, 3d6 Con, 1d6 Dex, 1d4 Int, 1d4 Wis, 1 Cha, Nauseated | 1d6 Str, 3d6 Con, 2d6 Dex, 2d6 Int, 2d6 Wis, 1d6+1 Cha, Nauseated for 2d10 minutes[/table]

SurlySeraph
2008-08-28, 01:12 PM
I like this a lot. There are a lot of poison-using builds that I've wanted to make but abandoned because they just weren't viable; this fixes that. Good job!

@V: I'm not sure I'd include that. Usually, larger creatures have more HD anyway.

Telonius
2008-08-28, 01:17 PM
Thanks! What do you think about the size modifier on poison harvesting, should that be added? I'm considering *1/5 for Fine, *1/4 for diminutive, *1/3 for tiny, *1/2 for small, *1 for medium, *2 for large, *3 for huge, *4 for gargantuan, and *5 for colossal.

Stycotl
2008-08-28, 06:37 PM
seems pretty cool, and the size mods make sense.

for synergistic purposes, check out my venom feats, which are usable by both naturally venomous and alchemically venomous creatures.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65399

i agree 100% that poison has been tossed aside as a facet of the game that is unworthy of general investment, simply because it was stuck with crappy mechanics to begin with.

SilentNight
2008-08-28, 10:32 PM
I concur, I've always had a soft spot for poisons but they're just not a consistent way of bringing things down. It makes me wonder why they even bother giving monsters immunity to it. These are very nice.

Telonius
2008-08-29, 08:23 AM
Updated to add the size modifier and explanation.

Thanks for the link, Stycotl! Yes, these would synergize pretty well with those venom rules. I wonder if there's a general formula to figure out how expensive a given poison should cost? That would really be the bridge between our two homebrews.

nhbdy
2008-08-29, 09:25 AM
the best part of this, besides the ability to make the poisons on par with potions is the fact that you can make them more powerful with higher DCs

Telonius
2008-08-29, 10:14 AM
Thanks, Nhbdy!
Here's a PrC to go with the feats. Also, edited the first post to account for plant-based poisons.

(PrC moved to the first post)

Venomsmith

Hit Die: d6

Prerequisites
Skills: Craft (Poison) 8 ranks
Feats: Brew Poison, Skill Focus: Craft (Poison)

Table: The Venomsmith
{table]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Special
1 | +0 | +2 | +2 | +0 | Poison Use
2 | +1 | +3 | +3 | +0 | Great Fortitude, Second Classic Blunder
3 | +2 | +3 | +3 | +1 | Favored Poison, Sneak Attack +1d6
4 | +3 | +4 | +4 | +1 | Poison Harvester, Never Saw it Coming
5 | +3 | +4 | +4 | +1 | Second Favored Poison
6 | +4 | +5 | +5 | +2 | Expert Poisoner, Sneak Attack +2d6
7 | +5 | +5 | +5 | +2 | Third Favored Poison, Poisonous Glare
8 | +6 | +6 | +6 | +2 | Supreme Poisoner, Evade Suspicion
9 | +6 | +6 | +6 | +3 | Fourth Favored Poison, Sneak Attack +3d6
10 | +7 | +7 | +7 | +3 | Venomblood
[/table]

Class Skills: Appraise, Balance, Bluff, Concentration, Craft (Poison), Diplomacy, Disguise, Escape Artist, Gather Information, Heal, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (Geography), Knowledge (Local), Knowledge (Nature), Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty), Move Silently, Open Lock, Perform, Profession, Sleight of Hand, Survival, Tumble, Use Rope

Skill points each level: 6 + Int modifier

Class Features

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
The Venomsmith gains proficiency with the shuriken, rapier, punching dagger, and all bows and crossbows. The Venomsmith gains no armor proficiency.

Poison Use: Venomsmiths never risk accidentally poisoning themselves when applying poison to a blade.

Great Fortitude: Venomsmiths gain the Great Fortitude feat as a bonus feat at 2nd level.

Second Classic Blunder: Venomsmiths gain a bonus equal to their Venomsmith level when using the sleight of hand skill to add poison to a drink, switch out a poisoned glass; a Bluff check intended to get the characters to look the other way while he applies poison to something; or any other such check deemed appropriate by the DM.

Favored Poison: At third level, the Venomsmith gains a Favored Poison. The Venomsmith becomes immune to the selected poison. The Venomsmith applies his Venomsmith level to all survival checks used for gathering that particular poison. Poisons made using the favored poison have their save DCs increased by 2. The Venomsmith gains a +2 bonus damage to any successful melee, ranged, or thrown weapon attacks made against the source of the Favored Poison, if the source is a creature. (For example, if the Venomsmith’s Favored Poison is Wyvern Poison, the Venomsmith gains 2 damage to successful attacks versus a Wyvern). At fifth level and every second level thereafter, may select an additional favored poison. In addition, at each such interval, the bonus damage and DC increase for any one favored poison (including the one just selected, if so desired) increase by 2.

Sneak Attack: This is exactly like the rogue ability of the same name. The extra damage dealt increases by +1d6 every third level (3rd, 6th, and 9th). If a Venomsmith gets a sneak attack bonus from another source the bonuses on damage stack.

Poison Harvester: At 4th level, the Venomsmith gains the benefits of the Poison Harvester feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites.

Never Saw it Coming: At 4th level, the Venomsmith is an expert at hit-and-run poison tactics. This ability is identical to the Mosquito’s Bite skill trick, except that the amount of rounds between the blow and the target realizing it is hit, is equal to the Venomsmith level. (A Venomsmith may choose to reduce this time if desired, at no penalty).

Expert Poisoner: At 6th level, the Venomsmith gains the Expert Poisoner feat.

Poisonous Glare: At 7th level, the Venomsmith may cast the Poison spell as a spell-like ability, as though affected by the Still and Silent spells, cast at the Venomsmith level. The Venomsmith makes a Ranged Touch attack instead of a Touch attack to deliver the spell. This ability may be used a number of times per day equal to the Venomsmith’s level. The Venomsmith must have line of sight to the target for this ability to be effective.

Supreme Poisoner: At 8th level, the Venomsmith gains the Supreme Poisoner feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites.

Evade Suspicion: At 8th level, the Venomsmith is treated as though under a continuous Undetectable Alignment spell (Caster Level = Character Level). Any attempt to detect the thoughts of the Venomsmith (such as the Detect Thoughts spell, the Read Thoughts and Mind Probe psionic powers, a Medallion of Thoughts, a Helm of Telepathy, or similar spells, powers, or items) automatically fails.

Venomblood: At 10th level, the Venomsmith has achieved a mastery of the poisoning arts to such a degree that his very blood becomes poison. He gains immunity to all poisons, magical and mundane, and may secrete a dose of any non-epic poison (except Venomblood, described below), at no cost in gold, materials, or XP. This ability takes a full-round action to accomplish, and is usable ten times per day. However, this ability does come at a cost. A Detect Poison spell will now detect the Venomsmith. The Venomsmith may be targeted with a Delay Poison spell, which now acts as a Slow spell. A Heal spell will act as a Harm spell if cast on a Venomsmith. The Purify Food and Drink spell has no effect on a living Venomsmith. The Venomblood ability does not pose a danger to any creature using a bite, claw, or other natural attack. However, any creature that tries to consume the Venomsmith (standard eating, using the Swallow Whole ability, using the Blood Drain special attack, etc.) must make a Fortitude check equal to the Venomsmith's HD + 20. If the check succeeds, the creature takes 1 point of damage per Hit Die of the Venomsmith. If the check fails, the creature is affected by Venomblood Poison (effects equivalent to a combination of Lich Dust, Ungol Dust, Insanity Mist, Black Lotus Extract, Terinav Root, and Id Moss, in addition to Nauseating the foe). A Purify Food and Drink spell cast on the dead body of a Venomsmith renders this poison ineffective.

Table: Venomblood Poison
{table] Initial Damage | Secondary Damage
2d6 Str, 3d6 Con, 1d6 Dex, 1d4 Int, 1d4 Wis, 1 Cha, Nauseated | 1d6 Str, 3d6 Con, 2d6 Dex, 2d6 Int, 2d6 Wis, 1d6+1 Cha, Nauseated for 2d10 minutes[/table]

Norr
2008-08-29, 11:47 AM
I'm just going to say right now that this is really cool. I've often thought of remaking the crappy poison rules myself, but never really gotten started.

One thing, mind blank is a very powerful ability, not even the gods can use mind affecting abilities on you (let alone find you). I believe nondetection is a lower level alternative for blocking thought reading.

Also, the spell Poison is a touch spell.

nhbdy
2008-08-29, 11:52 AM
Thanks, Nhbdy!
Here's a PrC to go with the feats. Also, edited the first post to account for plant-based poisons.

Venomsmith

Hit Die: d6

Prerequisites
Alignment: Any Nongood
Skills: Craft (Poison) 8 ranks
Feats: Great Fortitude, Skill Focus: Craft (Poison)

Table: The Venomsmith
{table]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Special
1 | +0 | +2 | +2 | +0 | Poison Use
2 | +1 | +3 | +3 | +0 | Brew Poison, Second Classic Blunder
3 | +2 | +3 | +3 | +1 | Favored Poison, Sneak Attack +1d6
4 | +3 | +4 | +4 | +1 | Poison Harvester, Never Saw it Coming
5 | +3 | +4 | +4 | +1 | Second Favored Poison
6 | +4 | +5 | +5 | +2 | Expert Poisoner, Sneak Attack +2d6
7 | +5 | +5 | +5 | +2 | Third Favored Poison, Poisonous Glare
8 | +6 | +6 | +6 | +2 | Supreme Poisoner, Evade Suspicion
9 | +6 | +6 | +6 | +3 | Fourth Favored Poison, Sneak Attack +3d6
10 | +7 | +7 | +7 | +3 | Venomblood
[/table]

Class Skills: Appraise, Balance, Bluff, Concentration, Craft (Poison), Diplomacy, Disguise, Escape Artist, Gather Information, Heal, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (Dungeoneering), Knowledge (Local), Knowledge (Nature), Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty), Move Silently, Open Lock, Perform, Profession, Sleight of Hand, Survival, Tumble, Use Rope

Skill points each level: 6 + Int modifier

Class Features

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
The Venomsmith gains proficiency with the shuriken, rapier, punching dagger, and all bows and crossbows. The Venomsmith gains no armor proficiency.

Poison Use: Venomsmiths never risk accidentally poisoning themselves when applying poison to a blade.

Brew Poison: Venomsmiths gain the Brew Poison feat as a bonus feat at 2nd level.

Second Classic Blunder: Venomsmiths gain a bonus equal to their Venomsmith level when using the sleight of hand skill to add poison to a drink, switch out a poisoned glass; a Bluff check intended to get the characters to look the other way while he applies poison to something; or any other such check deemed appropriate by the DM.

Favored Poison: At third level, the Venomsmith gains a Favored Poison. The Venomsmith becomes immune to the selected poison. The Venomsmith applies his Venomsmith level to all survival checks used for gathering that particular poison. Poisons made using the favored poison have their save DCs increased by 2. The Venomsmith gains a +2 bonus damage to any successful melee, ranged, or thrown weapon attacks made against the source of the Favored Poison, if the source is a creature. (For example, if the Venomsmith’s Favored Poison is Wyvern Poison, the Venomsmith gains 2 damage to successful attacks versus a Wyvern). At fifth level and every second level thereafter, may select an additional favored poison. In addition, at each such interval, the bonus damage and DC increase for any one favored poison (including the one just selected, if so desired) increase by 2.

Sneak Attack: This is exactly like the rogue ability of the same name. The extra damage dealt increases by +1d6 every third level (3rd, 6th, and 9th). If a Venomsmith gets a sneak attack bonus from another source the bonuses on damage stack.

Poison Harvester: At 4th level, the Venomsmith gains the benefits of the Poison Harvester feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites.

Never Saw it Coming: At 4th level, the Venomsmith is an expert at hit-and-run poison tactics. This ability is identical to the Mosquito’s Bite skill trick, except that the amount of rounds between the blow and the target realizing it is hit, is equal to the Venomsmith level. (A Venomsmith may choose to reduce this time if desired, at no penalty).

Expert Poisoner: At 6th level, the Venomsmith gains the Expert Poisoner feat.

Poisonous Glare: At 7th level, the Venomsmith may cast the Poison spell as a spell-like ability, as though affected by the Still and Silent spells, cast at the Venomsmith level. This ability may be used a number of times per day equal to the Venomsmith’s level. The Venomsmith must have line of sight to the target for this ability to be effective.

Supreme Poisoner: At 8th level, the Venomsmith gains the Supreme Poisoner feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites.

Evade Suspicion: At 8th level, the Venomsmith is treated as though under a continuous Mind Blank and Undetectable Alignment spell (Caster Level = Character Level).

Venomblood: At 10th level, the Venomsmith has achieved a mastery of the poisoning arts to such a degree that his very blood becomes poison. He gains immunity to all poisons, magical and mundane, and may secrete a dose of any poison, at no cost in gold, materials, or XP. This ability takes a full-round action to accomplish, and is usable ten times per day. However, this ability does come at a cost. A Detect Poison spell will now detect the Venomsmith. The Venomsmith may be targeted with a Delay Poison spell, which now acts as a Slow spell. A Heal spell will act as a Harm spell if cast on a Venomsmith.

Why only nongood? i could see a good person undercover using this class to kill an evil overlord. just like assassin was strange with alignment, why couldn't one be good? this seems like an unnessissary restriction.

Telonius
2008-08-29, 12:28 PM
Hm, thinking about it, it is technically possible for a person to be a Venomsmith and only use poisons that knock someone unconscious. You could be Exalted and use the class that way, if you really wanted to. I also thought Poison was an [evil] spell, but looking it up it turns out it's only Necromancy. So, alignment restrictions will go, and the characters will be judged based on how they use the poison.

I'll add in a bit about a ranged touch attack for the Poison Glare ability.

Mind Blank is a pretty powerful one, I'll agree ... Nondetection really wasn't what I'm going for either. But I've made some text changes, hopefully that will be better.

Also made one more change to the original post, to account for mineral poisons. (Stupid arsenic, having to be in the poison list. :smallmad:)
:smallbiggrin:

Norr
2008-08-31, 12:07 PM
One thing I have to ask, what is the first classical blunder?

SurlySeraph
2008-08-31, 05:04 PM
I definitely like this PrC. A lot.


One thing I have to ask, what is the first classical blunder?

Never get involved in a land war in Asia.

Kellus
2008-09-01, 06:15 PM
If his blood becomes poison at level 10, what happens if someone swallows him whole or uses a bite attack against him?

Also, very cool. :smallsmile:

Telonius
2008-09-03, 12:30 PM
If his blood becomes poison at level 10, what happens if someone swallows him whole or uses a bite attack against him?

Also, very cool. :smallsmile:

Thanks! A very good question, I hadn't considered that. I don't think it ought to deal damage to anything with a bite attack, but I'm not sure about Swallow Whole. If the character is still conscious, I suppose he could secrete an ingestion poison. But if it gets swallowed whole and dies ...? Might have to make up a poison DC for that.

Norr
2008-09-04, 04:50 PM
Well, since he's liable to have about two gallons of varying poisons in him (very many doses) I think the result of trying to digest him would be very very messy, agonizing and painful. I think the whole point of being a 10th level venomsmith is dressing up like a Poison dart frog and telling random people you taste terminally bad.

The DC could be ½ his character level + CON bonus + 8 from Favored Poison.
The effect... we could have some real fun with this...

Telonius
2008-09-05, 03:40 PM
Updated to show the poison. I think the DC should be a bit higher than that, since the things that have Swallow Whole tend to have really, really good Fort saves. I've combined some of the nastiest poisons in Core for it.

The Bushranger
2008-09-06, 03:13 PM
OK, this is simply awesomesauce. I like it a LOT. *starts thinking up applications amongst his characters...*

MythMage
2008-09-07, 02:58 PM
The class is pretty cool. It seems balanced, and a lot of fun, with one exception. Venomblood is too good. Free, unlimited poison is not good, especially when the poison can be anything at all (consider that there exist epic poisons of devastating power... devastation scorpion poison, anyone? That's got a save DC of 85, FYI). I suggest you limit this ability to a certain number of doses per day (say 1/day, 2/day, or 1/hour, or something like that), and also limit the value of each dose created. Perhaps have a high cap, but there should be a cap of some kind.

Norr
2008-09-07, 05:38 PM
The class is pretty cool. It seems balanced, and a lot of fun, with one exception. Venomblood is too good. Free, unlimited poison is not good, especially when the poison can be anything at all (consider that there exist epic poisons of devastating power... devastation scorpion poison, anyone? That's got a save DC of 85, FYI). I suggest you limit this ability to a certain number of doses per day (say 1/day, 2/day, or 1/hour, or something like that), and also limit the value of each dose created. Perhaps have a high cap, but there should be a cap of some kind.

Actually, there is a limit at 10 doses per day. I do think a limiter is a good idea, due to the aforemetnioned epic poisons.

bored_teen
2008-09-07, 07:48 PM
One thing I have to ask, what is the first classical blunder?

that class skill Second Classic Blunder is an allusion to The Princess Bride, a fantastic book, and a spectacular movie. i heartily recommend that you see the movie. the Blunders in question come from what is probably the most famous scene from the movie. i won't ruin it for you, so i'll have to take the quote out of context (GO SEE THE MOVIE!!!).

Vizzini: You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Asia, but only slightly less well-known is this: never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line!

Norr
2008-09-08, 07:22 AM
Ah, yes. I remember that line now. That movie is a classic.

lord of kobolds
2008-09-08, 04:31 PM
If his blood becomes poison at level 10, what happens if someone swallows him whole or uses a bite attack against him?

Also, very cool. :smallsmile:

What about any monster with the drain blood ability?

Telonius
2008-09-09, 10:25 AM
The Blood Drain attack would be another way of being poisoned by it. Vampires (for example) wouldn't need to worry, since as undead they're immune to poison.

Unfortunately I really don't know very much about Epic. Would putting a limit on Venomblood to Non-Epic poison be sufficient to prevent that? Allowing Epic Poison could be a part of Epic Progression for the PrC, but again, I don't know nearly enough about it to attempt it.

Prometheus
2008-09-09, 11:06 AM
I'm really glad someone figured out a way to make poison work in the existing system. It's been tried before, but I've never seen it done this good.

Another variant rule I thought I should mention is that if someone combines two doses of poison, the can instead have it could as a single dose, with a +2 to the DC.

The only criticism I have is that it seems that some of the poison feats granted by the prestige class, the player would have wanted to get earlier, so they either use their feat on something else and wait or waste the bonus feat. Perhaps a more general bonus feat list that includes the venom feats that were linked Sty Stycotl and a couple of stealth/assassin feats. Also perhaps something that allows poison to effect creatures normally immune to poison, albeit at a penalty.

DracoDei
2008-09-09, 11:52 AM
I support what you are trying to do here, but I am not sure about the idea of spending XPs for a faster working rate, especially spending a feat to do so.

PS This thread has inspired me to post a interesting application poison I made up a long while back here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4887500). Technically I posted it in some other thread a long while back, but the variations and in-depth analysis are new, and giving it its own thread helps.

Telonius
2008-09-09, 12:08 PM
I'm imagining this class mostly to be used by Rogues or Rangers, running from level 6-15. This is how it breaks down.

{table]Feat|Minimum Level|Ven character gets it
Brew Poison|3|7
Expert Poisoner|6|12
Poison Harvester|6|10
Supreme Poisoner|12|14[/table]

Would it make more sense if I made Brew Poison a prerequisite, and Great Fortitude a bonus feat at Ven2?

For Expert Poisoner, I can see bumping up the requirements to 15 ranks (only available at 12th level and up). Poison Harvester could move up to 10 ranks of survival (available to 9th level characters and up). That would bring the venomsmith into much closer alignment with the progression. If somebody really wants to spend a three-feat chain on poisoning to get Supreme Poisoner by 12th, more power to 'em. They would have been better off taking the prestige class, but there's really nothing stopping them.

I don't want to make it much easier for the Venomsmith character than that. I still want there to be some sort of a cost involved. For the Venomsmith, the cost is a feat you probably wouldn't have taken otherwise (skill focus) and a very slightly slower poison feat progression. (The benefit is that you can take three other feats that would have been eaten up by the poison feat tree, plus all of the assorted Venomsmith goodies).


I support what you are trying to do here, but I am not sure about the idea of spending XPs for a faster working rate, especially spending a feat to do so.

The XP cost is modeled off of the Brew Potion feat. Brew Potion is arguably even stronger, since without that feat you can't make a potion at all.

DracoDei
2008-09-09, 01:31 PM
The XP cost is modeled off of the Brew Potion feat. Brew Potion is arguably even stronger, since without that feat you can't make a potion at all.
I was saying that you could REMOVE the XP cost and it might STILL be balanced. I was saying it sounded underpowered, not overpowered.

lord of kobolds
2008-09-09, 04:50 PM
Brew poison definitely seems like it should be a prerequisite.

DracoDei
2008-09-09, 06:10 PM
Other Links of relevance (added Oct 2010):
Custom Poison Creation:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158131
Enhance Poison (spell):
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/printthread.php?t=151376

Snake-Blade

Many claim that only cowards use poisons. The Snake-Blade stands as living proof of the flaw in this assumption, standing shoulder to shoulder with other melee combatants.

Hit Die: d10

Prerequisites
BAB: +6
Base Fortitude Save: +5
Skills: Craft (Poison) 4 ranks
Feats: Poison Resistance, Great Fortitude

Table: Snake-Blade
{table]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Special
1 | +1 | +2 | +0 | +0 | Injury Poison Use, Alchemical Know-how
2 | +2 | +3 | +0 | +0 | Brew Poison, Deft Application
3 | +3 | +3 | +1 | +1 | First Favored Poison, Shuriken Flurry
4 | +4 | +4 | +1 | +1 | Poison Harvester, Rubbing Venom in the Wound
5 | +5 | +4 | +1 | +1 | Second Favored Poison, Bonus Feat (Weapon Focus[Shuriken])
6 | +6 | +5 | +2 | +2 | Expert Poisoner, Rapid Application (1/round)
7 | +7 | +5 | +2 | +2 | Third Favored Poison, Rapid Shuriken
8 | +8 | +6 | +2 | +2 | Supreme Poisoner, Bonus Feat (Greater Weapon Focus[Shuriken])
9 | +9 | +6 | +3 | +3 | Fourth Favored Poison, Rapid Application (2/round)
10 | +10| +7 | +3 | +3 | Injury Poison Immunity, Multi-Shuriken
[/table]

Class Skills: Concentration, Climb, Craft(Alchemy), Craft (Poison), Heal, Jump, Intimidate, Knowledge (Nature), Profession, Ride, Survival, Swim
Skill points each level: 4 + Int modifier

Class Features

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Snake-Blades gain proficiency with Shuriken. Snake-blades gains no armor or shield proficiency.

Injury Poison Use: Snake-Blades never risk accidentally poisoning themselves when applying Injury poison to a weapon or weilding a poisoned weapon.

Alchemical Know-how: Snake-Blades count as spell-casters for purposes of creating items with the Craft(Alchemy) skill.

Brew Poison: Snake-Blades gain the Brew Poison feat as a bonus feat at 2nd level.

Deft Application: At 2nd level a Snake-Blade is so practiced with re-envenoming his weapons that it doesn't make him any more vulnerable than any other action he undertakes with his weapon. The Snake-Blade no longer provokes attacks of opportunity for applying Injury type poisons to a slashing or piercing weapon and can use a light shield or two-handed weapon , without any loss of effectiveness while doing so. Once per round a Snake-Blade may apply poison to a weapon as part of a move action.

Favored Poison: At third level, the Snake-blades gains a Favored Poison. This must be an Injury Poison. The Snake-blades becomes immune to the selected poison. The Snake-blades applies his Snake-blades level to all survival checks used for gathering that particular poison. Poisons made using the favored poison have their save DCs increased by 2. The Snake-blades gains a +2 bonus damage to any successful melee, ranged, or thrown weapon attacks made against the source of the Favored Poison, if the source is a creature. (For example, if the Snake-blades’s Favored Poison is Wyvern Poison, the Snake-blades gains 2 damage to successful attacks versus a Wyvern). At fifth level and every second level thereafter, may select an additional favored poison. In addition, at each such interval, the bonus damage and DC increase for any one favored poison (including the one just selected, if so desired) increase by 2.

Shuriken Flurry: At 3rd level a Snake-Blade may Flurry with Shuriken as a Monk of level equal to his BAB. Substitute the Monk's Flurry BAB for the Snake-Blades BAB for purposes of this attack. This may be done regardless of load, armor, or shield.
Edit: For added convenience I have added a table. MIGHT go so far as to incorporate this as a seperate collumn of the main table.
Normal BAB|Shuriken Flurry BAB
+9/+4|+6/+6/+1
+10/+5|+7/+7/+2
+11/+6/+1|+8/+8/+8/+3
+12/+7/+2|+9/+9/+9/+4
+13/+8/+3|+9/+9/+9/+4
+14/+9/+4|+10/+10/+10/+5
+15/+10/+5|+11/+11/+11/+6/+1
+16/+11/+6/+1|+12/+12/+12/+7/+2
+17/+12/+7/+2|+12/+12/+12/+7/+2
+18/+13/+8/+3|+13/+13/+13/+8/+3
+19/+14/+9/+4|+14/+14/+14/+9/+4
+20/+15/+10/+5|+15/+15/+15/+10/+5


Poison Harvester: At 4th level, the Snake-Blade gains the benefits of the Poison Harvester feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites.

Rubbing Venom in the wound: At 4th level, the Snake-Blade may attempt ranged touch attacks at a -10 penalty with vials containing 5 times the normal amount required of an injury poison against a target that has taken a total of at least 20 points of damage from slashing, peircing, acid, and/or fire since the last time it healed any. On a successful hit the Snake-Blade manages to hit an area that was previously injured and inflicts the effects of ONE dose of the poison on the target. This attack deals no direct hit-point damage and uses the range increments and proficiencies for splash weapons.

Expert Poisoner: At 6th level, the Snake-Blade gains the Expert Poisoner feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites.

Rapid Application: At 6th level a Snake-Blade may apply an Injury Poison to a weapon once per round as a free action (included between strikes of a full attack for instance). At 9th level this ability may be used twice per round.

Rapid Shuriken: At 7th level, the Snake-Blade is treated as having the Rapid Shot feat when making a full attack with Shuriken.

Supreme Poisoner: At 8th level, the Snake-Blade gains the Supreme Poisoner feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites.

Poison Immunity: At 10th level, the Snake-Blade gains immunity to all mundane injury poisons with a DC of less than 27. Magical or Supernatural poisons can still affect him.

Multi-Shuriken: At 10th level, the Snake-Blade may make attacks with Shurilken as if using the Multi-Shot feat with a bow.

The Bushranger
2008-09-10, 12:06 AM
OK, can I just say this class is made of pure awesome? ^_^

DracoDei
2008-09-10, 12:38 AM
OK, can I just say this class is made of pure awesome? ^_^

The Venomsmith, the Snake-Blade, or both?

The Bushranger
2008-09-10, 01:06 AM
Both are cool, but the Snake-blade is especially so. Dang, that's...four PrCs I'd love to have my character (Shrike <- see the avvy) take...

Telonius
2008-09-10, 08:04 AM
That Snake-Blade is very, very nice!

Edited the Venomsmith to bar epic poisons from Venomblood, and changed the prerequisites of the feats. Also, moved the PrC to the first post, and spoilered some tables for easier reading.

DracoDei
2008-09-10, 09:31 AM
So it seems balanced in its current form then?

Anyone care to comment on what exactly it was that I did right so I can better incorporate that success into my future homebrewing efforts?

Edit: Posionous Glare for the Venomsmith needs a range limit other than line of sight probably... I suggest Close or PERHAPS Medium to fit with the rogue-like (rather than ranger or fighter like) slant of the class. If you want them to be able to snipe then make it Long... to match the range limit on sneak attack and an Assasains Death Attack go with a static 30'.

Telonius
2008-09-10, 10:02 AM
I think the range should stay line of sight. It's a potentially powerful ability (2d10 Con), but the save DC is only ever going to be 15 max. Even a level 1 Commoner would negate a single instance of the Con damages, 25% of the time. The idea behind that isn't so much to use it in combat, but to injure or assassinate the duke without anyone suspecting him (even if he can't get close enough to poison his food, etc).

It's also a good way to frame the Palace Chef. You're invited to the king's banquet, and suddenly the queen clutches her throat.

DracoDei
2008-09-10, 10:28 AM
1600 feet would seem fine to me (which would be if you slapped the range increasing Metamagic on it too)... 5 miles(Eyes of the Eagle, a flight spell, and a clear day)? Someone is going to find a way to break that...

Also, Delay Poison, and Heal each have an effect on a 10th level Venomsmith but Remove Neutralize Poison has none... you should probably fix that. Also you should allow it to be by-passed so that a Heal can act like a Heal if cast as a 12 hour ritual or something, because there are a lot of special conditions that that spell takes care of and the next stop is Miracle and Wish.

Telonius
2008-09-10, 11:34 AM
Line of sight should be fine. He's going to hit somebody from halfway across the universe in order to deliver ... a couple of DC 15 fort saves? Yeah, it's probably possible to get an absurd range out of it. But if you can do that there's a lot worse things you could do to the target than a "Poison" spell.

I'd been hunting around for the "Remove Poison" spell on the SRD, but I couldn't find it. I was at the point where I thought I'd imagined it, but it's actually called "Neutralize Poison." D'oh! :smallannoyed: I think it would, at the very least, prevent Venomblood from being used for the duration of the spell. But beyond that ... ? Stunned for one round? Worse?

kopout
2008-09-10, 06:51 PM
Damage, but not much. Awesome classes by the way!

DracoDei
2008-09-11, 08:48 AM
Just before the forums went offline for the nightly back-up I threw in two more shuriken specific psuedo-feats, partially to make up for the reduced BAB of the Shuriken Flurry class feature, and partially to shore up the relatively weak (compared to the Venomsmith) capstone.

Norr
2008-09-11, 12:46 PM
I think the penalty for the heal spell is a bit harsh, since it has a lot of unique features of healing. Either Heal works as advertised but shuts the venomsmiths venomblood ability for 24 hours, or allow Harm to act as a Heal spell for the venomsmith at 10th level.

Neutralize poison should temporarily disable the venomsmiths venomblood ability for the duration (10 min / level) and also act as an Inflict critical wounds spell, since that spell is of the same level as neutralize poison (for clerics anyway).

Cute_Riolu
2009-12-25, 01:17 AM
I think the penalty for the heal spell is a bit harsh, since it has a lot of unique features of healing. Either Heal works as advertised but shuts the venomsmiths venomblood ability for 24 hours, or allow Harm to act as a Heal spell for the venomsmith at 10th level.

Neutralize poison should temporarily disable the venomsmiths venomblood ability for the duration (10 min / level) and also act as an Inflict critical wounds spell, since that spell is of the same level as neutralize poison (for clerics anyway).

I'd say an hour would be adequate, keeping in mind that most adventures don't last nearly that long.

...Oh, crap. Didn't mean to practice Threadomancy!