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View Full Version : [4e] Avellor [Race] -- Yes, They Can FLY!



Neftren
2008-08-29, 06:25 PM
Here's an excerpt from my campaign setting. I tried to keep the game rule information simple so that just about anybody can pick up this pdf I'm compiling and start using content from it. There will of course, be references that you'll have no clue about, so bear with me. I also have not drawn any pictures, so I'll suffice by scrounging off the internet until I've done my own. So anyway, here goes:

Avellor
The Avellor are an avian race that took to the skies in an attempt to reach the heavens. They are excellent hunters and wardens of the lands they inhabit, and are tribalistic in nature.

Game Rule Information:http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/2421/avellorcc6.pnghttp://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/fcpics/features/commander_eesha.jpg


Personality: Avellor are accepting of outsiders, and often welcome others into their midst. They are also extremely religious and devoted to their tribe. Avellor often take the more optimistic view on life, and are one of the few races with the capability to understand all the little things that go right every day.

Physical Description: Avellor strongly reflect the appearance that of their avian ancestors. They look roughly human, but with five talons for each hand and foot. In addition to that, their bodies are covered in feathers. Possessing a wingspan of approximately nine feet, their heads are that of an eagle or falcon, depending on their ancestral heritage. Most Avellor stand at approximately six feet in height, but there have been cases of Avellor reaching six feet and as much as seven inches.

Relations: Avellor have become well known for their spiritual advice. People often make pilgrimages to Avellor lands, seeking enlightenment or peace of mind. They maintain especially good relations with the Etymae with whom they share a border with. Unfortunately, Avellor tend to view Igmarins with a more cautious (edging on hostile) attitude, after the Igmarins attempted to invade Avellor lands. Most other races view the Avellor with great respect.

Alignment: It is very rare to encounter a chaotic or evildoing Avellor. Many of them embrace a disciplined, rigorous life that often leaves them with little time for other things. The Avellor are often a beacon of hope for those in despair, and Avellor tend to choose to serve their community.

Avellor Lands: The Avellor once lived throughout all Ithaeric, but their great civilization slowly dwindled until only ruins remain. Today, the Avellor keep watch over the Perenol Valley. A majestic lake encircled by a ring of snowcapped mountains, the Perenol Valley is the seat of the Tribunal, a ruling council of elders who guide the Avellor. The Avellor not found within the Valley are often discovered in temples and shrines across the countryside, or as adventurers in pursuit of something greater than themselves.

Avellor Communities: Avellor are often found serving their communities. They are loosely organized into tribes, each resembling a different family of birds. As noted before, eagle and falcon are two possible tribes. Most Avellor try to help enrich their community and everyone strives to make life equal and better.

Leisure, Art and Literature: Most of the Avellor are often working, but leisure is not uncommon. Often games are played high in the air with much swooping and diving to be had. Some of Ithaeric’s most magnificent carvings have been those of Avellor manufacture, and the Avellor have kept their history together in a strong oral tradition.

Technological and Magical Strengths: The Avellor generally tend to take a simplistic attitude to life, preferring to live a life among nature. As such, most modern amenities such as an airship or firearms may only be found in large cities built specifically for trade with foreigners and merchants.

The Avellor Government: The Avellor are ruled with a tribal system consisting of a chief at the top and a healer or medicine man who advises the chief. The chiefs of every tribe convene every five years to elect seven members to a Tribunal, which governs the entire Avellor race as well as acting as a council with the capacity to negotiate with other governments and powers.

Religion: Avellor take a more accepting view of religion. They understand that every person has the right to choose their beliefs, and do not attempt to forcibly proselytize their beliefs. Avellor recognize the existence of the Ithaerian Pantheon, but hold ancestor worship as a more important practice over the practice of deity worship.

Language: Avellor possess the capacity to speak avian dialects, allowing them to converse with all types of birds and understand their speech. Foreigners have dubbed this bird speech “Avora”, but are incapable of speaking it themselves. Thus, the Avellor have learned to speak Common (albeit accented) in order to further establish relations with outsiders.

Names: Avellor names often reflect things about the person in question. Blackfeather could quite possibly be the name of an Avellor with black feathers. Names tend to reflect more on physical characteristics, but names referring to mental capacity are also common.

Adventurers: Avellor adventurers could be seeking enlightenment away from home, or possibly questing for the answer to a burning question. They could even be on a crusade against the forces of evil. Avellor who perform terrible deeds or crimes are often cast out and left to their own misery.

Shadow_Elf
2008-08-29, 09:34 PM
Few Things:

1. Spot is no longer a skill. It is part of Perception.
2. Distance is measured in squares, not feet, in 4e.
3. The Racial Power doesn't make sense to me, but maybe I'm not reading it right... Also, the power counts as a feature in the above list (see examples in the PHB)

Neftren
2008-08-29, 11:02 PM
Meh. I'm still working out that mechanics stuff. I haven't had a chance to read fully. What's more important to me is the fluffy bits. Thanks for the proofread though.

Oh and one addendum: Apparently people over at Gleemax feel flight at 1st level is overpowered. I may rework that. Hmm....

Ceiling009
2008-08-30, 11:04 AM
Most feel that flight at level 1 is overpowered if it lasts longer than a turn. Remember the Eladrin have teleport 6 as an encounter power at first level, having flight as an at-will is too awesome at level 1. Remember flight is a level 16 wizard power, with a sustain minor. So something like flight for a round or a turn is acceptable as a racial encounter power.

Neftren
2008-08-30, 04:58 PM
You know how in 3.5e, there is no race that can truly fly at level 1? The goal of this race was to create something to fill that gap, but for 4e instead. What if I gave large stat penalties instead? I can understand how flight may be a bit overpowered in the low-powered 4e world... maybe the people over at Gleemax have a solution.

Mando Knight
2008-08-30, 11:04 PM
Uh, you might be able to give them Overland Flight 5 at level 1, then "upgrade" it to Fly 5 (clumsy) at 11 (I don't see anything in the DMG or MM that Overland Flight gives the same defense penalties as clumsy flight), then Fly 5 or 6 at 21. Add an Epic Racial Feat that gives them Hover... Flight won't be really worth it for horizontal movement, but it'll

I just dislike that no PC is meant to sit on the ground for 15 levels while there are at-will flying enemies throughout all three tiers, and whereas PC mass flight is an epic daily power that requires a minor action every round for up to five minutes, there are quite a few monsters with non-clumsy flight or even hover as one of their move actions in the same tier.

I plan on later adding a series of feats that allow the player to have at-will flight using a progression similar to the one I listed above... but adding in Dex and Con minimums (reasons I'll explain when I post the feat series...) to try to keep a semblance of balance.

Neftren
2008-08-31, 08:21 AM
I really don't see an issue with a person being able to fly at will. I think the issue is people abusing the ability by becoming immune to melee attacks. Since magic is much rarer and there's really only one archery class, I can understand how it can be abused.

I want to make flight a viable alternative in combat, but I need to work out a way to make it so that it doesn't completely remove melee as a valid method of combat.

Mando Knight
2008-08-31, 02:03 PM
Since magic is much rarer and there's really only one archery class, I can understand how it can be abused.

Monsters have quite a few ranged powers. Don't confuse PC limitations with monster limitations. Even Kobolds can hurl sling stones at flying characters.

Neftren
2008-08-31, 02:38 PM
So what's the problem with giving PCs flight at first level...?

JackMage666
2008-08-31, 03:09 PM
So what's the problem with giving PCs flight at first level...?

They can bypass all difficult terrain, walls, pits, a good number of opportunity attacks, pretty much all attacks against them provoke from ground units (as ranged attacks do that), and a number of other benefits. Is it gamebreaking? Not in the hands of a good DM. Is it unfair to the others who can't fly? Yes, pretty much plain and simply, unless the DM decideds to really make their flight a burden by using high wind currents and such.

Neftren
2008-08-31, 03:16 PM
Hmmm... Well there really is no way around it I suppose. Any suggestions as to how to give true flight to a PC without making it gamebreaking outside the hands of a good DM?

JackMage666
2008-08-31, 03:20 PM
Make it an Encounter power, with a Sustain: Move qualm - That way, they can pretty much only do it once and encounter, and they can only be flying, not attacking and flying, and they'll do it slowly as well.

Neftren
2008-08-31, 04:02 PM
Well... these people are supposed to be able to fly normally out of combat too...

JackMage666
2008-08-31, 04:34 PM
Encounter isn't a term limited to combat encounters. Encounter is considered roughly 5 minutes, I believe, or anytime there's a trap, things such as that.

Neftren
2008-08-31, 05:04 PM
Hmmm... Okay.

Shadow_Elf
2008-08-31, 06:25 PM
I'm sorry I don't have a link, but someone posted racial feats for Dragonborn to fly at some point here on the forums. The progression they made was very sensible to me. I believe they took away the character's level 2 utility in exchange for the ability to do a flying leap. Then, at later levels, this ability simply let them take to the skies, giving them improved overland flight and hover powers at epic levels. Perhaps this race could do something similar, to represent them "learning to fly over time". That way, if they just want to be a hard-core melee fighter, they can just skip learning to fly properly.
Following the idea above, a good racial power idea would be to allow them to leap into combat once per encounter (a la KOTOR Jedi Soldier Jump) so they could engage enemies quickly in a surprise encounter.

Lyndworm
2008-08-31, 06:26 PM
They look roughly human, but with five talons for each hand and foot.

Most people would assume that you mean:

"They look roughly human, but have talons in place of hands and feet."

Technically, you've described a being with ten hands and ten feet. Might wanna re-think that.



Possessing a wingspan of approximately nine feet, their heads are that of an eagle or falcon, depending on their ancestral heritage. Most Avellor stand at approximately six feet in height, but there have been cases of Avellor reaching six feet and as much as seven inches.

It's a good thing I hate cat-girls so much or I might regret this...

Something six feet tall with a wingspan of nine feet is highly unlikely to be able to fly. At that height, I'd suggest wings of at least twelve feet, probably closer to eighteen. I'm of course assuming that in addition to being near human in shape and size the Avellor are also near human in bio-mechanics and weight distribution. Even with hollow bones and air-sacs (like falcons), these guys would probably weigh around 80-120lbs. You'd need massive wings for something like that. The great bustard is the heavies known animal capable of flight, and it only weighs 45lbs. The wings in question? Eight feet, and that's barely enough. It's an extraordinarily clumsy flier, though it is capable of flying at speeds in excess of 37mph.

Hopefully my geekery has brought more good than harm.

Zack

Mando Knight
2008-08-31, 08:05 PM
Most people would assume that you mean:

"They look roughly human, but have talons in place of hands and feet."

Technically, you've described a being with ten hands and ten feet. Might wanna re-think that.


1. a claw, esp. of a bird of prey.

All birds of prey have hook-tipped beaks and sharp curved claws called talons

Both of these sources equate talon with claw, so his original description is semantically correct.


Make it an Encounter power, with a Sustain: Move qualm - That way, they can pretty much only do it once and encounter, and they can only be flying, not attacking and flying, and they'll do it slowly as well.

What you're basically describing is Overland Flight:



Overland Flight: Overland Flight applies to creatures that fly to move from place to place but remain on the ground to fight. A creature using overland flight loses its minor, immediate, and standard action while it flies, and can use its move action only to fly. The number associated with overland flight is the number of squares the monster moves with a single move action. If it takes actions to do anything else, it crashes.

Basically, when a character uses Overland Flight, they can't do anything while in the air but use one Move Action per turn to fly and/or land.

Neftren
2008-08-31, 08:18 PM
@Shadow Elf: I know of that progression, and I also know its concept is similar to that of the Raptoran from 3.5e (Races of the Wild). The Raptoran can technically "fly", but it can't at first level. It has to go through a bunch of random stuff and then pass a test in order to fully fly. I want something that flies right off the bat.

@Lyndworm: Semantically, yes I am correct as Mando pointed out. However, the fact that there was the possibility of misreading it... would it make more sense if the clause read: "roughly human, but with five talons on each hand and foot."?

As for the wingspan, I just randomly thought of a number. I was at a loss... what can I say? :smallbiggrin: I should probably go fix that.

Overland Flight... sounds workable. Especially if I add in a feat that allows combat at some later time? So that way the PC can still fly normally, but can't really do much else. Thanks Mando!

Lyndworm
2008-08-31, 08:19 PM
@ Mando:
I was pointing it out because I found the imagery humerous, but if you want to get even more technical about it than I can.

These creatures posess talons but no hands/feet or toes/fingers. Clawed nubs. Good thing they can fly.

His orginal semantic was incorrect, albeit in a different and more absurd way than my previous musings.


@ Neftren:
No, there's no reason to change it, really. I was just struck by an odd image and thought I'd share it with you. I highly doubt anybody would ever read what you wrote and think you meant what I thought.

There's no real reason to change the wingspan, either. The fabric of D&D's reaity is permeated with magic. In a world like that, the aws of physics rarely apply. If you prefer the idea of a race with wings acheiving flight as opposed to the idea of a race perfectly adapting flight due to superb biomechanics, keep the wingspan. If not, change it.

When it comes down to it... You're the creator, do what feels right.


Zack

Neftren
2008-08-31, 08:24 PM
Okay, here's a revised wording on the Racial Power:

Flight -- Racial Power
At-Will -- Move Action -- Personal
Effect: You may fly as if you were under the effects of the Overland Flight ability.

Edit: Also, the stat bonuses should be to Dexterity and Wisdom, not Charisma.

Ceiling009
2008-08-31, 08:56 PM
Like I said, it's probably best to have an encounter power do something like Fly for a turn (not clumsy, unless you want to suffer that -4 penalty). No sustain minor, overland flight is absolutely terrible. You might as well give them Overland flight in their write up, and not bother with it as a power. Cause overland flight is only good for out of combat, while effect like fly (speed) normally are used in battle, and denote how good they are in the air during such situations. Look that dragons, they have like a speed 7 (used for walking/running etc), fly 7 (clumsy) (so basically they can fly while in battle and fight with a -4 penalty), and then overland flight 10 (which only used outside of combat). If you go look at the genasi preview in the FR preview on WotC's site, they have an encounter power that let's them fly 8 squares for one turn. I would probably say that a paragon feat would allow them to sustain that flight encounter power, and epic feat gives them hover straight up.

Neftren
2008-08-31, 08:59 PM
Like I said, it's probably best to have an encounter power do something like Fly for a turn (not clumsy, unless you want to suffer that -4 penalty). No sustain minor, overland flight is absolutely terrible. You might as well give them Overland flight in their write up, and not bother with it as a power. Cause overland flight is only good for out of combat, while effect like fly (speed) normally are used in battle, and denote how good they are in the air during such situations. Look that dragons, they have like a speed 7 (used for walking/running etc), fly 7 (clumsy) (so basically they can fly while in battle and fight with a -4 penalty), and then overland flight 10 (which only used outside of combat). If you go look at the genasi preview in the FR preview on WotC's site, they have an encounter power that let's them fly 8 squares for one turn. I would probably say that a paragon feat would allow them to sustain that flight encounter power, and epic feat gives them hover straight up.

I think that just straight up giving them Overland Flight would imply that they somehow obtained that ability through magical means. Since the way I have it organized, people might just read the game rule information and then screw the rest of the fluff (which is fine, so long as they know just a bit).

Ceiling009
2008-08-31, 09:13 PM
Well they look to be bird people, so I don't why they just don't get overland flight as it is... in fact, take out of their write up, and make it something like an epic feat or even a paragon feat, or something. But overland flight as an encounter power is kinda... well odd. Since you do nothing with it, other well move about outside of a fight. Which was a big game breaker... or well makes DMs angry sort of deal.

Neftren
2008-08-31, 09:13 PM
Game Rule Information has been updated.

Edit: Maybe it's just me and a holdover of 3.5e, but Overland Flight sounds so much like a spell rather than a physical ability. Flight sounds like a physical ability. Also, I'm getting tired of repeating that I don't want to make this a paragon or epic feat. The goal is to be able to fly at first level with no limitations. It's also not an encounter power. It's 'At-Will'.

The premise is that you can fly in combat, but you really can't do anything while in flight. Later on, feats will become available that let you fight while flying, etc. In the quoted clause by Mando, I don't see where it says you can't fly while in combat... I don't have my DMG at hand, but I will look it up when I can.

Ceiling009
2008-08-31, 09:29 PM
If you use "overland flight" you cannot attack while doing so, doing anything else other than using a move action to fly causes you crash. It's a not spell, its a movement mode now. If you don't want it to be feat, and you want them flying at level 1... whatever, then just give them straight up overland flight in their write up, it sort of stops terrain and the such being such a hassle for getting from point a to b, but it's not like it really matters. But Fly as movement mode is specifically for how they can use flight in a combat or encounter situation. Having overland flight means nothing when you're getting shot at, cause doing anything else other than moving to fly or land causes you crash. You should also specify a height limit, and a speed for fly and overland flight, cause there's always a number of squares associate with it. So fly 8, mean I think they can go up to a maximum altitude of 8 squares before crashing, even if they do take the minimum 2 square movement to stay aloft. That's why hover is something sort of important.

Edit: So if you want them to fly in combat, that would be their racial encounter power, probably something like either lasting a turn, or a sustain move; once they are flying, they can still attack, just not really move.

Neftren
2008-08-31, 09:45 PM
If you use "overland flight" you cannot attack while doing so, doing anything else other than using a move action to fly causes you crash. It's a not spell, its a movement mode now.

It's supposed to be a movement mode at level 1.


If you don't want it to be feat, and you want them flying at level 1... whatever, then just give them straight up overland flight in their write up, it sort of stops terrain and the such being such a hassle for getting from point a to b, but it's not like it really matters.

That's essentially what I have done, but Overland Flight as an ability by itself makes it seem to much like a spell effect. As a racial power, I can introduce a series of feats to improve upon it. If it's just built in, I would have to override the RAW. As a power, I can build on without violating any rules.


Edit: So if you want them to fly in combat, that would be their racial encounter power, probably something like either lasting a turn, or a sustain move; once they are flying, they can still attack, just not really move.

They can fly. That's the goal. Combat is secondary and can be achieved through a feat chain.

Shadow_Elf
2008-08-31, 11:13 PM
I have had many arguments with my DM on the subject of the purchase of a Blade Spider for my wizard. Bare with me, as I think this is relevant.
Mounts are purchased as magic items of their level, and if the PCs possess mounts, a creature of the mount's level is added by the DM to counteract any bonuses the mount might give, or any combat the mount may engage in. I desired a Blade Spider for my wizard for the novelty of its spiderclimb speed. It can essentially walk on walls and ceilings. The problem with this was that I could sit on the ceiling and spam my magic missile and other area attacks without provoking opportunity attacks from my enemies. Even if he added a level 10 creature onto the enemy's team, it wouldn't help them much if their melee fighters were unable to reach me. This was an issue at level 10.

As you can imagine, giving a race the ability to fly, which is even more useful than my precious spider's spiderclimb ability, at level 1, as an at-will power, is not fair. Eladrin are given the ability to teleport 5 squares as a move action once per encounter. This is better than flight in the sense that "taking off" does not provoke opportunity attacks. It is worse in the sense that you cannot end your movement in mid-air. Thus, I think that allowing your race to fly 8 squares once per encounter would be fair, as long as they landed somewhere by the end. This is still useful and they needn't attempt any bothersome climb or jump checks. You could then make feats that allowed them to Sustain: Minor it, and so that they had to move minimum 3 squares to stay aloft. Landing would end the power. More feats would allow them to hover, and then snipe thing from the air etc.

@Ceiling009: "Fly 8" means it can fly 8 squares, up, down, left, right or diagonally, as a move action. Just like "Speed 8" means it can walk 8 squares as a move action. It has no bearing on the height to which they can fly. Fly "clumsy" means they must land at the end of each turn or crash. Fly "normal" means they must move atleast 3 squares on their turn to stay aloft. Fly "hover" means they needn't move on their turn to stay aloft.

I apologize for the length of my argument, but I hope this helps.

Mando Knight
2008-09-01, 12:00 AM
@Ceiling009: "Fly 8" means it can fly 8 squares, up, down, left, right or diagonally, as a move action. Just like "Speed 8" means it can walk 8 squares as a move action. It has no bearing on the height to which they can fly. Fly "clumsy" means they must land at the end of each turn or crash. Fly "normal" means they must move atleast 3 squares on their turn to stay aloft. Fly "hover" means they needn't move on their turn to stay aloft.

Actually, any Fly movement other than Fly (hover) means that you have to move at least 2 squares to stay in the air at the end of your turn. This applies to Overland Flight, Fly, and Fly (clumsy). Clumsy flying means that the flying unit takes a -4 to all defenses and attack rolls while flying. They can remain in the air so long as they move at least 2 squares every turn, but it is advantageous to them that they land as soon as possible if they are going to fight at all.

I would assume that you can assign Clumsy flight to Overland flight, so that the flier not only can use only a single Move action every round, but also takes a -4 to all defenses. They can't attack in from the air, nor is it defensively advantageous for them to stay in the air during a fight. It'll save them from the dreaded Needlefang Drake Swarm, but they'll never be able to kill it without landing, where they're easy prey for the drakes. (Flight does provoke opportunity attacks, as well, but can't deliver any.) For all the "fewer limitations" that 4E D&D flight gives vs. RL flight, unless the character has normal flight or hover flight, they're better off staying on the ground when ranged or flying enemies are in play.

Spider climb can actually be more troublesome than clumsy or Overland Flight, since it doesn't require any type of movement to remain on the wall, and allows for attacks and defenses without penalties.

The level 10 Blade Spider actually is the same level as a hovering mount: the Wyvern. Same size, but greater movement and gives a +2 to defenses to level 10+ riders with Mounted Combat in exchange for the Blade Spider's Combined Attack. For "staying out of reach and spamming ranged attacks," you should have asked for a Wyvern.:smallwink:

Ceiling009, the only dragon in the MM with clumsy flight is a young Black Dragon. The others start with hovering flight, from 6-10 spaces depending on the dragon (blues and greens get 10, reds get 8, and whites get 6). None of the young dragons are paragon tier. Like you said, though, the Overland Flight speed is only used out of combat because of their higher Double Fly speed. (They can't, however, use Double Fly for extended periods of time outside of combat)

EDIT: Oh, yeah: only hovering fliers can shift in mid-air, so non-hovering fliers can't use shifting effects from their powers...

Ceiling009
2008-09-01, 12:04 AM
I was pretty sure that the x number by fly is their maximum altitude too... but yes, the point I said about it being a movement mode means it's not a magical effect, it's just something they can do. I think you're messing more with RAW when messing with overland flight and making it normal fly... since I gave you an example with the Dragons, they have two flight modes, Overland Flight and Fly X (clumsy), meaning that I think it's perfectly fine for a race... I guess, to have overland flight as just being part of it, so they can fly at level 1... but must have fly x for a turn as a racial encounter power so that when it comes to combat or other encounter situations, they still have the ability to fly and be useful. Otherwise, in flight, they do nothing but fly. Also, you need to give a speed for overland flight and fly.

Edit: the black dragon was just an example, and I was sure others had better fly speeds, but the point is that there is two for a reason, one is for out of combat flight, the type that isn't so much a game breaker as it is more head ache for a DM who doesn't like quick travel... and the other is based in encounter and combat situations, which if at will is game breaking.

Shadow_Elf
2008-09-01, 09:19 AM
Another thing you may want to consider is that staying in the air for an extended period of time is crazy annoying to track. You have to find a way to run the fight in three dimensions, to see who is adjacent to your character or in range in 24 different directions. Even when its done you may find that you only use your flight to jump over obstacles and avoid pressure plates conveyor belts etc.

@Mando: Wyverns suffer a -2 penalty to all defenses unless they are in an open space. That's why I prefered the sub-terranean Blade Spider. Wyverns are still cool though. (Most Annoying ~20 encounter: 3 Feyborn Wyverns, Ridden by 2 Yuan-ti Malison Sharpeyes and 1 Yuan-ti Malison Incanter. Encounter takes place in a room with a series of snake-shaped pillars the party must jump across, or fall 10 feet into a poison gas cloud. Enjoy :smallbiggrin:)

Mando Knight
2008-09-01, 12:51 PM
@Mando: Wyverns suffer a -2 penalty to all defenses unless they are in an open space. That's why I prefered the sub-terranean Blade Spider. Wyverns are still cool though.

I forgot about the -2 penalty in enclosed spaces since it's only in the DMG and they don't remind you of it in the MM...

Neftren, a minor nitpick: the Avellors' racial power should have a green box instead of a red one if it's at-will, since red is for encounter powers.

Neftren
2008-09-01, 02:08 PM
That's what's been bugging me all day. The wrong colored box. Thanks. I'll go fix that in a bit.

Shadow_Elf
2008-09-01, 02:18 PM
Ok, the ability is still wrong. Overland flight is not usable in combat whatsoever. Not even to just fly in cricles. It is an out of combat only movement mode, just like walking, riding, and boating are movement modes. Overland Flight is not an ability. Just like when you read a monster entry and it says under speed: Speed: 8, Swim 8, Fly 10, Overland Flight 12, it means that they can walk 8 squares as a move action, swim 8 squares as a move action, fly 10 squares as a move action or fly 60 miles in a day, whereas something with only fly 10, and not overland flight, could only fly 50 miles in a day. Overland flight is literally flying over land. Getting from town to town, dungeon to dungeon, tracking the bad guys over several days etc. It is not usable in combat. It cannot be a power. It is not an ability.

Sorry if that sounded angry. Just trying to get my point across.
Check Page 261 of the PHB and Page 48 of the DMG. There is relevant information in there.

Neftren
2008-09-01, 03:44 PM
Ok, the ability is still wrong. Overland flight is not usable in combat whatsoever. Not even to just fly in cricles. It is an out of combat only movement mode, just like walking, riding, and boating are movement modes. Overland Flight is not an ability. Just like when you read a monster entry and it says under speed: Speed: 8, Swim 8, Fly 10, Overland Flight 12, it means that they can walk 8 squares as a move action, swim 8 squares as a move action, fly 10 squares as a move action or fly 60 miles in a day, whereas something with only fly 10, and not overland flight, could only fly 50 miles in a day. Overland flight is literally flying over land. Getting from town to town, dungeon to dungeon, tracking the bad guys over several days etc. It is not usable in combat. It cannot be a power. It is not an ability.

Sorry if that sounded angry. Just trying to get my point across.
Check Page 261 of the PHB and Page 48 of the DMG. There is relevant information in there.

Hence, I add a feat that will allow you to fight in combat. Meh. Like I said, my copy of the DMG is currently not on hand. When I can get to it, I'll try to fix it.

Shadow_Elf
2008-09-01, 04:05 PM
What I'm trying to get across is that you cannot "be under the effects of the Overland Flight ability" as it is not an ability. You cannot have it as a power. You can give them overland flight, but it is a movement speed, not a power or ability. Next to where it says "Speed: X squares" put "Overland Flight #". It does not qualify as a racial power or even as a racial feature. It is just there. Then you could add feats that gave them a Fly (clumsy) speed of Overland Flight -2, a paragon feat for normal flying, and an epic feat for flight (hover). You could then give them a Racial Power that allows them to perform a Flying Leap once per encounter, allowing them to get out of sticky situations, avoid difficult terrain, engage enemies faster etc. This could be improved by even more feats. i.e. longer leap, finishes with an attack, does not provoke AO's etc. could be added via feats.
Check in your feats section of your PHB, and find the Elven ability "Light Footed" (I think that's what it's called...). It only applies to Overland Speed, not combat speed. The differentiation must be made.
This way, the Avellor could fly at level 1, but they'd need to take a feat. So at level 1, they can fly overland quickly, and they can fly clumsily in battle, but they don't have the feat they would normally put in something else.

Mando Knight
2008-09-01, 04:08 PM
Ok, the ability is still wrong. Overland flight is not usable in combat whatsoever. Not even to just fly in cricles. It is an out of combat only movement mode, just like walking, riding, and boating are movement modes.

Sorry if that sounded angry. Just trying to get my point across.
Check Page 261 of the PHB and Page 48 of the DMG. There is relevant information in there.

Those pages say nothing about whether Overland flight can or cannot be used in combat. The MM (page 281) says that it's not meant to be used in combat, and the extreme limitations on what actions the flier can take support that, but I don't see anything in the RAW that says that you can't use an Overland Flight speed inside combat if that's the only flight speed you have. (However, it seems that the MM doesn't usually give out Overland Flight movement alone, so Clumsy Flight may be better...)

Neftren
2008-09-01, 04:09 PM
What I'm trying to get across is that you cannot "be under the effects of the Overland Flight ability" as it is not an ability. You cannot have it as a power. You can give them overland flight, but it is a movement speed, not a power or ability. Next to where it says "Speed: X squares" put "Overland Flight #". It does not qualify as a racial power or even as a racial feature. It is just there. Then you could add feats that gave them a Fly (clumsy) speed of Overland Flight -2, a paragon feat for normal flying, and an epic feat for flight (hover). You could then give them a Racial Power that allows them to perform a Flying Leap once per encounter, allowing them to get out of sticky situations, avoid difficult terrain, engage enemies faster etc. This could be improved by even more feats. i.e. longer leap, finishes with an attack, does not provoke AO's etc. could be added via feats.
Check in your feats section of your PHB, and find the Elven ability "Light Footed" (I think that's what it's called...). It only applies to Overland Speed, not combat speed. The differentiation must be made.
This way, the Avellor could fly at level 1, but they'd need to take a feat. So at level 1, they can fly overland quickly, and they can fly clumsily in battle, but they don't have the feat they would normally put in something else.

Fair enough, but must I keep repeating to you right now that I don't have a Dungeon Master's Guide sitting in front of me currently? If you could kindly quote the full text for the rules on Overland Flight and Flight (and Teleportation while you're at it), that would be most helpful in my fixing anything. If it's not readily apparent to you (I don't think too many people noticed that red line under Aesyl), the game rule information block happens to have been built in Microsoft Word, in a Word document. I don't have access to that document either.

I don't want Avellor to have to take a feat to be able to fly in combat. That's just dumb and I doubt anyone would be willing to burn their first level feat on the capacity to fly horribly in combat.

Shadow_Elf
2008-09-01, 04:34 PM
Flying Rules from the DMG:



The rules for fighting in the air stress abstraction and simplicity. In real life, a flying creature's ability to turn, the speed it must maintain to stay aloft, and other factors put a strict limit on flight. In D&D, flying creatures face far fewer limitations.

The Fly Action
Unless otherwise noted below, a flying creature moves as if it was on the ground. It can turn as often as it likes, move backward, and so on. Unless a special ability says otherwise, it moves like it does for any other mode.

Fly: The Move Action
* Movement: Fly a number of squares equal to your fly speed
* Moving Up and Down: While airborn, you can fly straight up, straight down, diagonally up and diagonally down as well as forward, backward, left, right and diagonally.
* Remaining in the air: If you fail to fly atleast 2 squares on your turn, whether due to not moving far enough or simply not taking a move action, you crash.
* Landing and Crashing: If a creature flies up to a surface it can hold onto or rest upon it can land. A creature that accidentally flies into an object, such as an invisible wall, automatically crashes.
* Double Fly: As double move from the PHB, but airborn.
* Provokes opportunity attacks: If you fly away from a square adjacent to an enemy, that enemy is entitled to an opportunity attack.
* No Opprtunity Attacks: A flying creature may not make opportunity atttacks.
* Knocked Prone: A flying creature that is knocked prone crashes.

Crashing
Flight is a fast form of movement that allows a traveller to avoid obstacles and swoop over enemies, but it comes with a major drawback. Tumbling from the sky and falling to the earth is risk enough to keep many adventurers with their feet firmly on the ground.

Crashing: Most of the time, a creature that falls from the sky slams into the ground and takes falling damage (PHB page 284). (Stuff about being up high enough to catch yourself without hitting the ground)

Special Flying Rules:
Altitude Limit: A creature with an altitude limit cannot fly higher than the indicated number of squares. If it does so, it crashes at the end of its turn, even if it returns to acceptable altitude in the same action.
Clumsy Flying: A clumsy flier takes a -4 penalty to attack rolls and defences while flying. These creatures are ill-suited to fighting in the air.
Clumsy Grounded: As Clumsy Flying except when the creature is on the ground (i.e. a bat)
Hover: A monster that can hover can shift and make opportunity attacks while airborn. It remains flying even if it does not move the minimum distance on its turn. It stays in the air even if it takes to move action to fly.
Overland Flight: Overland Flight applies to creatures that fly to move from place to place but remain on the ground to fight. A creature using overland flight loses its minor, standard and immediate actions while it flies, and it can only use its move action to fly. The number ascociated with Overland Flight is the number of squares a creature can move with one move action. If it takes any other kind of action, it crashes.


Some paraphrasing and emphasis(es) mine. Underline for places where I changed or removed irrelevant detail.

Teleprtation is just like walking but it is instantaneous. THe advantage over teleportation is that you you only need line of sight to use it (i.e. you can teleport to the other side of a glassteel wall, but you cannot walk through it) and it does not provoke AoO's.

Neftren
2008-09-01, 04:40 PM
I don't see anywhere where it says you cannot use Overland Flight in combat.

Ceiling009
2008-09-01, 04:44 PM
That was pretty much my point... I guess I didn't make it clear enough, that there is a reason on those monster entries there is a "overland flight x" and "fly x". You lose all actions, but move in Overland flight, so no standard action to attack, no minor action to anything that isn't an attack, and you only have a move action with which you can only fly or land. So you can't use it in combat unless you want to crash.

Shadow_Elf
2008-09-01, 05:14 PM
Overland Flight applies to creatures that fly to move from place to place but remain on the ground to fight

It is not meant for combat, as is said above.

Neftren
2008-09-01, 05:46 PM
Overland Flight applies to creatures that fly to move from place to place but remain on the ground to fight

It is not meant for combat, as is said above.

The way I read it, players can fly while in combat, but if they want to attack stuff, they'll have to land first. Nowhere does it say "I cannot use Overland Flight while in combat".

NecroRebel
2008-09-01, 06:07 PM
There's nothing stopping you from using Overland Flight in battle.

However, if you are using your Overland Flight speed, you cannot use standard, minor, or immediate actions.

Since most actions that are useful in battle, like attacks, defenses, healings, and interrupts, are standard, minor, or immediate actions, and combined with the fact that if you fail to fly 2 squares you crash (something that eats your move action), Overland Flight speeds are of extremely limited utility in battle.

Get it? You can use Overland Flight in battle; it's just stupid.

Neftren
2008-09-01, 07:26 PM
There's nothing stopping you from using Overland Flight in battle.

However, if you are using your Overland Flight speed, you cannot use standard, minor, or immediate actions.

Since most actions that are useful in battle, like attacks, defenses, healings, and interrupts, are standard, minor, or immediate actions, and combined with the fact that if you fail to fly 2 squares you crash (something that eats your move action), Overland Flight speeds are of extremely limited utility in battle.

Get it? You can use Overland Flight in battle; it's just stupid.

That's the way I want it. It makes it so you CAN fly, but it might not be the most advantageous method of movement. That way, I can build a feat chain in that gives you the ability to fight with Overland Flight. Like... that gives you back your actions or something.

Ceiling009
2008-09-01, 09:24 PM
But that's why there's a Fly mode, so you can use flight while in battle. Why bother with messing with overland flight, when you can just as easily give them the Overland Flight ability in their write up, versus an at-will power; and give them fly x for a turn as an encounter power? It's simpler, and it doesn't mess with anymore rules as it is.

Gallanoth
2008-09-01, 11:45 PM
The racial power does not necessarily need be described by overland flight. So as to help clarify what can and cant be done with the overland flight, I suggest that overland flight be placed in the movement descriptor as previously suggested for movement outside of combat; however having the racial power be described as Fly (clumsy) without the ability to attack. Then later through the use of feat chains, the racial power can be upgraded to Fly (clumsy) for a penaltied attack, Fly, and Fly (Hover).

Just my two cents :smallbiggrin:

:edit: also if you follow my advice the power should probably be changed from at-will to encounter with a sustaining minor + a move action for balance

Neftren
2008-09-11, 08:01 PM
I've decided to revisit this issue. So...

How about I just give them Speed 6, Overland Flight 10.
Their power will be changed to an encounter power, giving them the ability to use normal flight. Or maybe even a daily power.

Edit: New Game Rule Information:http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/534/avellorjm9.png

Mando Knight
2008-09-29, 03:25 PM
Well, with the Adventurer's Vault, it seems that WotC intends to release some official playable races with fly speeds sometime... Butterfly Sandals, page 127: Increase the flight speed of your flight powers and racial traits by 2. (Italics mine)

It's almost like they want us to stat out races with flight speeds.

Rigon
2008-09-29, 04:12 PM
okay... i've read this discussion and i have a suggestion.

Overland flight movement mode outside of battle only on level 1.
When entering battle the Avellor lands immediately to protect his/her wing from harm and prevent a possible fall. You could also add an often recalled story about a "fallen" ancestor who was cursed to walk till the end of his life because he did not take heed.

later on (ask the rulebook sages which level) their experience would allow them to use overland in a fight in battle (but still.: forced to move each turn, and only move action).

THEN you could add a racial paragon path which would allow them hover and fly(clumsy). Why a paragon path? Because they would need serious aerial-battle oriented training to obtain the ability to fight and fly(clumsy)...

the important part is the you limit it "outside of battle only" at level 1 so it wont get abused as much.

i hope i did help a bit.

EDIT: also something like "cannot fly when bloodied"... or having a wounded wing (which is an ancestral heritage) is a kind of disgrace. fluff can fill rulegaps.

Neftren
2008-09-29, 06:41 PM
Well, with the Adventurer's Vault, it seems that WotC intends to release some official playable races with fly speeds sometime... Butterfly Sandals, page 127: Increase the flight speed of your flight powers and racial traits by 2. (Italics mine)

It's almost like they want us to stat out races with flight speeds.

Yeah I heard about that from my friends. I'll see about getting the book. I think it's decent the way it is, but I could always improve.

Shadow_Elf
2008-09-29, 06:56 PM
Model the encounter power after the Windsoul Genasi encounter power. Then give them a racial paragon path that is flight-focused. Problem Solved?