Giants in the Earth- campaign setting

[Innis Cabal]

I was only partly kidding about the maps >.>

And im not opposed to things like victorian boomsticks....but anything more insane then black powder weapons.....leave em out.

[combatmedic]

I was only partly kidding about the maps >.>

And im not opposed to things like victorian boomsticks....but anything more insane then black powder weapons.....leave em out.

Hmmm, I wasn't even thinking of going that far with the tech.

[Zeta Kai]

Awsome, if possible the giant city the Hachi(and i would assume another race or two) could be placed between the gaint mountains

And awsome map there Zeta, do you take requests :P

Thank you for your kind words. And yes, I take requests, but each map takes time.

[Innis Cabal]

The Chinese Empire had black powder weapons long long in the past, not to awful of a stretch that we might have....basic point, light, and fire hand cannons

Edit: Then oh Zeta do I have a request for you.

[combatmedic]

The Chinese Empire had black powder weapons long long in the past, not to awful of a stretch that we might have....basic point, light, and fire hand cannons

Edit: Then oh Zeta do I have a request for you.


Ah, medieval handgonnes are one thing, Victorian era revolvers and rifles are quite another. Yes, simple hand cannon would be fine. Let's consult with the others first- some gamers are deathly allergic to black powder in fantasy settings!

[Innis Cabal]

of course, as always, they are only ever suggestions.

[combatmedic]

of course, as always, they are only ever suggestions.

Ya.

Now I'm working on a god for LoC. :smallsmile:

[Lyndworm]

I support hand cannons, but I've never been a big fan of steamtech and the like. Hand cannons are doable, though.

The world I normally play in features dwarves with agriculture. They farm mushrooms and have a racial bonus on identifying toxic fungus and resisting toxins.

Just a thought I've always liked.

Zack

[Another_Poet]

A Sense of Scale

I was thinking about how big the ancient giants must’ve been. To get a specific sense of scale, I looked at a few examples in the posts above:

-Their towers “touch the sky” (so presumably, a simple medieval castle would have skyscraper-scale watchtowers).

-Their paving stones are so big that trees, not weeds, grow between the cracks.

-Their stairs are so big that Medium creatures can build barracks against each step.

These examples lead me to believe that the ancient giants must have been very large – they would fit the Colossal size category (the biggest one D&D offers). According to the SRD that means they have a 30’x30’ space and stand “64 feet or more” tall. I’d have to suggest that they require the “or more”. For example, a single step in a human staircase is about 8” tall, so for a single step to be 10’ tall the giant would have to be about 90’ tall.

Assumptions:

I’ll assume a human is 6’ tall and a giant is 90’ tall. That means the height of any human object should be magnified by 15x to be useable by a giant.

I’ll assume a human is 2’ wide while a giant is 30’ wide. Humans occupy a 5’ square but they are not 5’ wide at the hips or shoulders. D&D is wildly inconsistent in its space-to-height ratios; a human is barely taller than its own 5’ space, whereas even the shortest Colossal creature is more than twice as tall as its space (64’ compared to 30’).

There I assume that a human is 6’ tall, 2’ wide at the hip and occupies a 5’ square only because there are no smaller squares to choose from. I assume a giant is 90’ tall, 30’ wide at the hip and occupies a 30’ square. Using those dimensions, a giant is 15x the size of a human both in height and in girth. The proportions are preserved.

All human dimensions can therefore be multiplied by 15 to get the giant dimensions.

Now, I’m not the OP nor the most frequent contributor to this thread, so if these numbers anmd ideas don’t feel right just go ahead and disregard them. But using the assumptions above, here are some approximate dimensions of things that would be found in the ruins. (The "Food" section is the most interesting to me, so I put it first.)

Food:
Assuming we are not inventing colossal-sized herd animals, the giants would have had an interesting economy. The best choice for meat would be to raise Dire Cattle. Each oversized cow would be the equivalent of one chicken in a human diet. They could also provide milk and cheese. Of course, these dire cattle are likely to have gone wild after the collapse, and herds of dozens to hundreds of the aggressive beasts roam the countryside.

Fantastic meat options like breeding rocs for eggs and meat are possible, but that would radically change the setting.

For vegetables, the giants had limited options. Unless they could digest wood, there isn’t much for them. A good bet would be oversized ferns; some varieties of ferns are edible (and rather tasty) to humans, and some varieties of ferns grow 15’ tall. Put those hands together and you have a shade-loving, fast-growing source of vitamins and fiber for the giants.

Pine trees would also be a good bet, as the giants could have developed a way to quickly strip them of needles. The needles, added to salads or used as herbs in teas and stews, would add a ton of vitamin C to the giant diet. Some needles taste good, and presumably the giants would’ve refined their tastes to enjoy a wide variety of needles.

Watermelons or pumpkins could be popped in the mouth by the handful like berries, and coconuts could be cracked and eaten like juicy nuts. Entire medicinal trees (willows, cedars, etc.) would be steeped in hot water to make tea. Tea would have been an expensive commodity since trees take so long to regrow.

The real problem for the giant diet is getting any sort of starch or grain. Potatoes and corn are the biggest ones, and they're only as big as they are because of millennia of selective breeding by humans. More typical sources are wheats, rices and amaranth which are all miniscule and require a lot of work even for humans to turn into food.

That means the giants either hired/enslaved smaller creatures to grow and process their grains; found some kind of larger grain (which we’ll need to invent); or lived without eating grains much/ever. In the latter case they probably would have to be well-adapted to eating grasses, shrubs and small trees, so that they could graze. This will require a wildly different digestive system.

This question really isn’t that important in and of itself, but it bears a bit impact on the setting in one way: is this a world where abound house-sized apples, dog-sized berries, and potatoes that need a team of miners to dig up? The answer will effect the environment that adventurers travel through.

Roads:
A single-lane dirt road would be 75’ wide or more. Most would be overgrown because, after all, they are just dirt. Wheel ruts (5’ wide and 5’ deep) from giant wagons might still be worn into the ground in places, and might be used as human roads or even as trenches for warfare. The wheel grooves of human-sized chariots and carts might actually be worn into the bottom of the giant wheel grooves.

A single-lane city road might be up to 150’ wide and paved with the equivalent of cobblestones. Because of their rough shape (each brick rises more than a foot from edge to centre) human wagons and carts could not use these roads in any sense. Humans on foot could follow them however, probably incurring many twisted or sprained ankles.

A two-lane paved highway could easily be 300’ wide. Each paver stone would be at least 15’ x 15’; some might be larger. These pavers would be flat and quite traversable, but the seams between them might be several feet across, and 5-10’ deep, preventing wagon travel even if trees aren’t growing out of them. On top of that the road would be "crowned", which means the centre would be 15-30’ higher than the sides (to shed water). The roads would essentially form ridges, probably with weatherworn pavers on the windward side and cracked, overgrown pavers on the leeward side. These ridges would be an ideal place to camp, with a commanding view of the surroundings and a stiff breeze to discourage mosquitos.

Bridges & Water:
Streams up to 30’ across would have no bridges at all; giants could easily step over them. Wider streams might have one or two stepping stones, which would be like small rock islands to humans. Only rivers 180’ across or more would have bridges, which would likely be one lane wide (75-150’) arched bridges of stonework construction. These are likely to have a steep curve to them, rising 60’ or more from one bank to the centre. Such bridges would be strategic assets for human armies, combining the advantages of height, choke point, and river crossing into one location. The bridges’ sidewalls would be an additional 45’ tall and 10-15’ thick, so human armies could position archers on them above the "pass" below. Humans may have added human-sized ramparts along many of these giant bridge railings, or even whole watchtowers at the ends of the bridges.

In cities, lakes smaller than 300’ in diameter don’t exist. They would have been destroyed by engineers the way human engineers try to avoid allowing large mud puddles. Only lakes bigger than 300’ would still be present, possibly walled in with stonework so they can be used as wells.

Artificial fountains would probably be 90’ in diameter or a little more. The central spire – the part that shoots the water – could easily be 5 or 6 stories tall. The fountains would probably no longer function, and would be dry. Squeezing through the 8-inch to 2-and-a-half-foot water conduits of these fountains might be a popular sport among smaller races, if no predators have moved in.

Latrines:
A typical medieval pit latrine could be a chasm up to 60’ across and almost any length. Depending on how full it was and what happened in the centuries since, it could be only 10 feet deep or hundreds of feet deep. Marshes might well have formed in the resulting lowland. No actual sewage would be left, of course.

In an urban setting public toilets may be found with vertical waste shafts (“pit toilets”). The shaft could be 40’ to a side and 300’ deep if it doesn’t hit bedrock first. Again, no sewage would be left, but the vermin and fungi who flourished there may still be abundant in the bottom of the shaft. Looking for lost treasure (dropped items a giant wouldn't both rooting through sewage for, that might be valuable prizes to Medium creatures) could lure adventurers in despite the potential danger.

The seat would be a stone bench with a 23’ hole in it. The bench would easily be 45’ long per “seat”, and raised some four stories above the floor. The same seats would be used in castle latrines, but there the shaft drops out the wall of the castle hundreds and hundreds of feet above the midden heap or moat below.

Stairs:
A single step in a giant staircase would be 10-15’ tall and 15-30’ deep. A one or even two-story building could be built using the side of the step as a wall, although sockets would have to be hollowed out of the step to hold joists or rafters.

Artefacts:
Giant rings would be several feet in diameter and bracelets at least 5’ across. Rings can be used as windowsills in human architecture, and bracelets as fancy doorways. Larger pieces of jewellery would be of limited utility, but could be displayed in royal gardens or museums.

Wine bottles could be taller than a house and, if laid on their sides, children could crawl down the neck of the bottle on hands and knees. Halflings or gnomes (if they exist in this setting) could use giant bottles as homes.

Dishes would always be made of glass. (Trees don’t grow big enough to make carved dishes, metal is expensive, and clay is rarely found in large enough deposits to make much giant-sized pottery; sand for glassmaking, however, is abundant). Dishes could range in size from “king’s bathtub” (a teacup, pudding bowl or saucer) to “roof of a temple” (a serving platter). Giants probably would’ve avoided cooking methods that required large cauldrons, as the amount of metal needed is astronomical. Wooden spoons and skewers, each made from a whole tree, would be common finds in the ruins. Forks would be rare.

Weapons would follow the guidelines in the PHB, but non-magical polearms wouldn’t have existed in the giants’ empire. There’s simply nothing to make them out of. Even if enough metal was found to make a whole 90' spear-shaft, it would be soft and crumple under impact without modern steel or some kind of enchantment.

Magical artefacts, of course, are adventurers’ bread and butter. The Medium and Small races have probably adapted a number of ways to put giant-sized items to use (I would suggest nixing the rule that magic armour is one-size-fits all and potions are one-dose-fits-all, at least when it comes to the Medium/Colossal gulf). A single giant alchemist lab could provide a city with decades of business as potions and ingredients are sold of en masse or used to advantage in war and diplomacy. The rareness of magic items in general in this world makes it all the more imperative that adventurers get creative in putting that 20’ tall Boot of Flying to use.

[Zeta Kai]

Ridiculously detailed analysis...

Awesome work, AP. That's all quite brilliant. I don't know if they'll use your recommendations here, but I'll use them somewhere. :smallwink:

[Innis Cabal]

We were actually going on that sort of assumption. Hence the Macross references

[Ghal Marak]

I like the idea of hand cannons. If we are going to empliment them, though, we need to come up with the rules for 'em. EDIT: Though we may not have to, now that I think about it. A bunch of rules has already been made for blackpowder weapons, we just need to pick the best rules for the job.


The world I normally play in features dwarves with agriculture. They farm mushrooms and have a racial bonus on identifying toxic fungus and resisting toxins.

Such a focus would definately put them into major conflict with the Mushroom Folk. Or... on the other hand, perhaps they trade with the Mushroom Folk for rare fungi. Perhaps they even hire Mushroom Folk to watch over their fungus farms and teach them about the dangerous species. Hmm... I like that idea. They could be close allies, seeing as they would share similar territories.

@AP: Wow, that is seriously well thought out. It brings up a question though. Activated magic items. A wand for example. How would/could a person interact with such a device? If it can be used, would it take the place of cannons? If so, could use a few beasts of burden to spin it around, perhaps some means of changing the angle of the wand, and a Wizard or five to activate it once the target is aligned. Boom! :smallbiggrin:

[Lyndworm]

Excellent work, AP. I think most of us had assumed similar numbers, but it's good to see it all laid out. Excellent work.

Zack

[Innis Cabal]

alright, blackpowder seems a go,

and i like the dwarf/mydocan or what ever they will be called alliance

[combatmedic]

Yeah, the Elder Giants were really, really big. We are talking Paul Bunyan.

Today's giants are greatly diminished creatures, mere shadows of what once was. Perhaps this is the result of the ogres' curse, or deific influence, or something else entirely. This allows us to incorporate some of the ideas from your Crushed Men, without ditching the giant types we'd already established. Sound good?

[Another_Poet]

Thanks guys, I'm glad you like it. I haven't played (seen? read?) Macross so I'm not familiar.

About wands, here's an easy way to do it. If one is found it would still be a standard action to use, and would only take a single wizard to use (it's an act of "spell trigger", which one person can do). Aiming would be the tough part, and the spell would work as normal.

That's the easy way. Here is the fun way.

Giant Wands
Giant Wands use the same spells as normal wands, but on a giant scale. All damage-dealing spells deal Empowered damage (see the Empower Spell metamagic feat); all spells with ranges of close, medium, or long ranges are multiplied by fifteen; and all spells with area effects have their area increased by 600%.

The spells within the wands are considered to be 6 levels higher than normal, as if they were affected by metamagic. This adjusted spell level should be used to determine the value of such a wand as well as the cost of making one. It does not change the actual level of the spell, and the DC for saving throws does not go up. Even though the adjusted spell level will be higher than 4th level, the base spell contained in the wand still cannot be higher than 4th level.

Giant Wands are 25-50' long, 2' in diamater and typically made of precious metals, giant bones, or carved tree trunks. A typical Giant Wand has AC 2, 30 hp, hardness 7, and a Break DC of 24. The wands can weigh 400 lbs or more.

Creatures of size Colossal can use the wands normally. Humans and similar-sized creatures must use one of the two methods below.

New Feat: Giant Adept
Prereq: Ability to use wands

Benefit: You know how to imitate the actions of giant magicians, even though your body is out of scale with theirs. You can trigger giant wands just as easily as you can trigger wands made by your own race.

Doing so takes a standard action. The wand must still be pointed in the general direction of the target or area (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wands.htm) to be used successfully, and you must be touching the very end of the wand (the non-casting end) to trigger it. Touching it anywhere else does not count.

Normal: You cannot use a Giant Wand unless you are size Colossal or succeed on a Use Magic Device Check (see below).

Giant Wands and UMD
Any creature can try to trigger a Giant Wand by making a Use Magic Device (UMD) check. The DC of this check is equal to 26 + 2 per size category away from Colossal. For example, a Human would have to roll a 34 or higher to succeed, because humans are 4 size categories away from Colossal (and 26 + (2*4) = 34).

This check takes a standard action to complete. The wand must still be pointed in the general direction of the target or area (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wands.htm) to be used successfully, and you must be touching the very end of the wand (the non-casting end) to trigger it. Touching it anywhere else does not count.

@ CombatMedic: Yeah, sounds great. I might try a hand at statting out the Crushed Men purely as a NPC race/monster, but probably not till next week.

[combatmedic]

I've seen old school rules for hand cannons and other simple BP weapons....will do a 'net search for them.

[Innis Cabal]

Macross is about the human race in a giant space vessel defending earth from the old owners of above giant space vessel. The vessel of course is intended for the giant's that operated them, and by giants, i mean -huge-, think.....what we plan on doing in space.....really.....CAlled Robotech in America

[Another_Poet]

Here is a link to the (free!) firearm rules from the best old-timey-guns setting out there, Iron Kingdoms:

http://privateerpress.com/docs/privateer_firearms.pdf

Based on those, here is what I'd recommend for one of these pre-Renaissance cannons-on-a-stick:

2-4 ft. in length; 1000 gp; damage 2d8 piercing, crit 20x3, 2 rounds and a DC15 profession (gunsmith) check to reload. Crit 20/x3, range 100 ft., 20 lb. Requires an exotic weapon feat to use.

[Innis Cabal]

looks good to me

[combatmedic]

I have a mental image of dwarven grenadiers marching into battle to the sound of drums! Yarrr, we blow stuff up, dwarf-style! They may not have the longest arms for throwing, but they could use some sort of lacrosse stick thinger to hurl their deadly grenades- maybe this could even double as a melee weapon [club].

The dwarves could also have satchel charges consiting of a thin canvas bag, ceremic flat mine filled with BP, and a pound or two of nails. Nasty way to clear a room.

[Innis Cabal]

Ye Olde Shrapnel....lets not forget chain as well

[combatmedic]

Ye Olde Shrapnel....lets not forget chain as well



Yeah! Just because your BP tech is primitive doesn't mean it cannot be deadly.

We are talking hand cannon, so I'm assuming they aren't yet to the matchlock stage of development. Maybe they haven't invented slow burning matches. The weapons are touched of by hot wire, most likely.

What about their powder? Is it serpentine? Do they know how to corn it? I'm imagining the do know how to corn the stuff. This might be a fairly recent discovery, though.

[Ghal Marak]

I have a mental image of dwarven grenadiers marching into battle to the sound of drums! Yarrr, we blow stuff up, dwarf-style! They may not have the longest arms for throwing, but they could use some sort of lacrosse stick thinger to hurl their deadly grenades- maybe this could even double as a melee weapon [club].

The dwarves could also have satchel charges consiting of a thin canvas bag, ceremic flat mine filled with BP, and a pound or two of nails. Nasty way to clear a room.

That's starting to sound like the Imperial Dwarves that I briefly tried to write up in my own World Setting. Mine used toxin gasses more than explosives. Perhaps we should dial back the explosive bent and add some chemical warfare to the mix. With Mushroom Folk as allies and the Dwarves own fungi bent (if we want to take them in that direction mind you) would provide ample opportunities to find toxic materials to use creatively.

[combatmedic]

That's starting to sound like the Imperial Dwarves that I briefly tried to write up in my own World Setting. Mine used toxin gasses more than explosives. Perhaps we should dial back the explosive bent and add some chemical warfare to the mix. The Mushroom Folk and the Dwarves own fungi bent (if we want to take them in that direction mind you) would provide ample opportunities to find toxic materials to use creatively.

Hmmmmmm.... or give them fuel-air explosives, using gas from the mines and something flammable like grain dust or maybe some fungal product! BIG BOOM!


Talking about fungal weapons is makes me think of T-2 myotoxins, yellow rain. Very nasty stuff, and unless our dwarves are pretty much evil, I doubt they'd wanna use it.

On the other hand, some sort of airborne hallucinogen could be fun. :smallsmile:

[Ghal Marak]

Hmmmmmm.... or give them fuel-air explosives, using gas from the mines and something flammable like grain dust or maybe some fungal product! BIG BOOM!


Talking about fungal weapons is makes me think of T-2 myotoxins, yellow rain. Very nasty stuff, and unless our dwarves are pretty much evil, I doubt they'd wanna use it.

On the other hand, some sort of airborne hallucinogen could be fun. :smallsmile:

Another couple of bad stuff is the Destroying Angel and the Death Cap mushrooms. Nearly as bad at that T-2 stuff. Though you have to eat 'em to suffer any effects.

[combatmedic]

Another couple of bad stuff is the Destroying Angel and the Death Cap mushrooms. Nearly as bad at that T-2 stuff. Though you have to eat 'em to suffer any effects.

Ya.

Am I the only one who thinks of Fantasia right away, whenever anyone mentions mushroom-folk?

[Another_Poet]

You could easily stat out grenade weapons using a pricing system:

d6 any 1 energy to one square, plus 1 point dmg to adjacent squares, 1 rd secondary damage
=price as alchemists fire

d6 any 1 phys dmg (slash, pierc, bludg), hits 1 square and all 8 adjacent squares, no secondary dmg
=price as alchemist fire

any 1 mind-altering spell affect, hits 1 square and all 8 adjacent squares (allows save)
=price as 3x a potion of that spell (ignore spell level cap on potions)

any 1 damage-dealing area affect spell, area centred on square it hits
=price same as a potion of that spell (even tho dmg spells don't usually go into potions)

Combine as desired!

[Ghal Marak]

I... had actualy forgoten about that. Hmm. Perhaps I need to watch it again.

[Innis Cabal]

My mind goes to Sporeiconds from old Magic

[Lyndworm]

Combatmedic mentioned the dwarves using their handcannons as clubs once they were out of ammo, but a hoarde of dwarves firing their cannons into battle, throwing toxic weaponry (to which they were more or less immune) and then using the blades attached to their cannons as axes... it just feels right, you know? I can just see it in my head.

To solve the problem of a dwarf throwing anything with his short arms, I suggest something along the lines of the atlatl catapult/slingers.

Zack

[Innis Cabal]

I think battle sling shots would be awsome

instead of giant crossbows, globe launchers

[combatmedic]

Combatmedic mentioned the dwarves using their handcannons as clubs once they were out of ammo, but a hoarde of dwarves firing their cannons into battle, throwing toxic weaponry (to which they were more or less immune) and then using the blades attached to their cannons as axes... it just feels right, you know? I can just see it in my head.

To solve the problem of a dwarf throwing anything with his short arms, I suggest something along the lines of the atlatl catapult/slingers.

Zack

Yeah, I was driving at that atl-atl concept with the mention of lacrosse sticks. Staff-slings would also work pretty well, I'd imagine.

Axe-guns makes perfect sense. In fact, those were really made and [presumably] used in the real world. There are surviving examples of such combination wepaons from the 1500s and 1600s in Europe [especially the German states of the HRE], and possibly earlier.

I rather doubt the tech level will be developed enough that the dwarves have functional BP mortars or grenade launchers, but what about miniature catapults? Something like that was actually designed for use in WW1, to hurl grenades into enemy trenches.

[Lyndworm]

I know, I've seen pictures. The merging of the polearm and firearm into the perfect killing blow. Vicious efficiency? Yes, please.

Zack

[combatmedic]

I know, I've seen pictures. The merging of the polearm and firearm into the perfect killing blow. Vicious efficiency? Yes, please.

Zack

Henry the 8th [IIRC] even had combo gun-shields made for some of his bodyguards, supposedly. I've seen pictures the artifacts. They look cumbersome. Ah, and there's always the 'holy water sprinkler' mace-gun combo.

[Innis Cabal]

cumbersome, but weighted with awsome

[Ghal Marak]

General racial views
{table]Race Name|Hates|Uneasy|On Good Terms
Dwarves|Kobold|Humans, Hachi, Kenku|Mushroom Folk
Humans|Kobold|Kenku, Hachi, Dwarves, Mushroom Folk|None
Mushroom Folk|None|Hachi, Kenku, Humans, Kobold|Dwarves
Hachi|Kenku|Mushroom Folk, Humans, Dwarves, Kobold|None
Kenku|Hachi|None|None
Kobold|All but Returned|None|Returned
Returned|Depends on previous life|Depends on previous life|Depends on previous life
[/table]

So this is how I think the races would view each other.

I put Returned and Kobold together because I figured that most Returned are former Kobolds. I am not too sure how Hachi and Mushroom Folk would react to one another. Perhaps they have differing ideas on how best to protect nature. Or maybe they are just too alien from one another to get along with. Humans I'm not sure about. Are they going to be semi to full blown xenophobic? If so, then I believe that Kenku may be the only ones to even be remotely tolerated in human cities.

I'm not sure how to grade the others though. Anybody have some insight on this and how they would further mesh?

[combatmedic]

BP has three ingredients: saltpetre, charcoal, and sulfur

Bat caves, mountains o 'dwarf poo, etc, can all be sources of nitre [saltpetre]. For humans in real history, stables were a good source, but I don't know that our dwarves will have lots of horses and such. With all that fungiculture, the dwarves should be pretty well acquianted with excrement and its various uses.

Charcoal? The dwarves probably get this the same way anybody does, they make it in the forest. I can definitely conjure up a mental image of sooty dwarf charcoal burners with goggles and axes and spades venturing into the woods to make loads of the black stuff.

Sulfur? Where are they getting it? Mining, I'd say. Maybe surface mining in some areas that have hot springs with sulfur content, and deeper delvings elsewhere.

[combatmedic]

{table]Race Name|Hates|Uneasy|On Good Terms
Dwarves|Kobold|Humans, Hachi, Kenku|Mushroom Folk
Humans|Kobold|Kenku, Hachi, Dwarves, Mushroom Folk|???
Mushroom Folk|???|Hachi?, Kenku, Humans|Dwarves
Hachi|Kenku|Mushroom Folk?, Humans|???
Kenku|Hachi|Humans|???
Kobold|Dwarves|???|Returned
Returned|Dwarves|???|Kobold
[/table]

So this is how I think the races would view each other.

I put Returned and Kobold together because I figured that most Returned are former Kobolds. I am not too sure how Hachi and Mushroom Folk would react to one another. Perhaps they have differing ideas on how best to protect nature. Or maybe they are just to alien from one another to get along too well. Humans I'm not sure about. Are they going to be semi to full blown xenophobic? If so, then I believe that Kenku may be the only ones to even be remotely tolerated in human cities.

I'm not sure how to grade the others though. Anybody have some insight on this and how they would further mesh?

I like this, but I think we should amend it by stating that it only reflects general trends. It's not as if all humans, hachi, etc will share the same attitudes about certain other species. I think it should, to an extent, depend upon local conditions and history. That keeps players guessing, and allows for some fun roleplaying and story elements.

[Ghal Marak]

I like this, but I think we should amend it by stating that it only reflects general trends. It's not as if all humans, hachi, etc will share the same attitudes about certain other species. I think it should, to an extent, depend upon local conditions and history. That keeps players guessing, and allows for some fun roleplaying and story elements.

Very true. I titled it as you suggested. This is mostly just to give an overall layout of the racial tensions forming within this setting. It's by no means anywhere near perfect, as seen by the multitude of question marks.

If we could work to fill this in, we might get a better picture of the delicate interplay between the races.


Heh, I'm waxing elloquent. :smallbiggrin:

[Innis Cabal]

[QUOTE=Ghal Marak;4863197]General racial views
{table]Race Name|Hates|Uneasy|On Good Terms
Dwarves|Kobold|Humans, Hachi, Kenku|Mushroom Folk
Humans|Kobold|Kenku, Hachi, Dwarves, Mushroom Folk|???
Mushroom Folk|???|Hachi?, Kenku, Humans|Dwarves
Hachi|Kenku|Mushroom Folk?, Humans|???
Kenku|Hachi|Humans|???
Kobold|Dwarves|???|Returned
Returned|Dwarves|???|Kobold
[/table]

I dont see the general Kobold mindset to be very...open to the other races

Hachi would probably not have allies, but be uneasy with all but Kenku

[Ghal Marak]

I dont see the general Kobold mindset to be very...open to the other races

Hachi would probably not have allies, but be uneasy with all but Kenku

I made the changes.

Also, I changed the Returned to "Depends on previous life". I makes sence, seeing as anyone can become a Returned, provided that they know enough Shadowmagic.

[Innis Cabal]

I'd say for the returned they should at least tolerate the Kobolds as they are the shadow casters of the world

[combatmedic]

The kenku.....

Innis' suggested Ottoman/Byantine style for them intrigues me. It suggests an advanced civilization, but also one that is marked by intrigue and general skullduggery. I'm getting a mental image of kenku assassins clutching poison-smeared daggers as they descend upon their master's enemies, vicious palace intrigues in the Aeryie of the Autocrat, a labyrinthine city of freaks and wonders, etc.

Maybe you were going for something else entirely, Innis. Let me know what you think.

[Innis Cabal]

No, that sums it up pretty much 100%

[combatmedic]

No, that sums it up pretty much 100%

Shall we give the kenku an empire, or are they just a ragged collection of city-states? I kinda like the empire option, provided we don't make it so big it overshadows all the other races. The continent is large enough that a fair sized polity could exist, and still leave many areas well outside its reach.

[Innis Cabal]

Polis's...would be awsome

[combatmedic]

Polis's...would be awsome

City-states it shall be, then.

I think at least one [if not several ] kenku city-state ought to be involved in slave-trading. They don't have to be an ''evil'' race, but I like keeping them on the morally shady side of things, as a general rule. They're not monsters, but the civilization isn't always pretty- though they do make [or steal] beautiful art.

[Innis Cabal]

Slave culture? Sure, why not, Mulhorand isnt evil and they do slaves

[combatmedic]

Slave culture? Sure, why not, Mulhorand isnt evil and they do slaves

Exactly.


The kenku are going to be fun to write about, I can see that already.

[Ghal Marak]

All right, so Kenku are (more or less) set up. If we can look back on the Dwarves, how are they going to be arranged? I mean, we can't just go with the 'standard' on this. We already have them as allies with living fungi, so we might as well run with it. Hmm... perhaps we can get them off this ancestor kick and have them focus on the immediate family?

Oh, about the Hachi. Are the hives a sting of absolute monarchies un-connected with one another? Or are they more along the lines of feudalism?

[combatmedic]

All right, so Kenku are (more or less) set up. If we can look back on the Dwarves, how are they going to be arranged? I mean, we can't just go with the 'standard' on this. We already have them as allies with living fungi, so we might as well run with it. Hmm... perhaps we can get them off this ancestor kick and have them focus on the immediate family?

Oh, about the Hachi. Are the hives a sting of absolute monarchies un-connected with one another? Or are they more along the lines of feudalism?

How about this:

Dwarves have no sex. They are neither male nor female, though they mostly look ''male'' to human eyes. They have no generative organs and feel no lust of the flesh.

Dwarves come from earth-eggs- big geodes that dwarven miners uncover. These hollow rocks are filled with a crystalline matrix that houses a proto-dwarf in suspended animation. Secret rituals are used to quicken the life within, and the ''children'' are brought forth almost fully grown- but ignorant and bestial. These rituals, and indeed knowledge of the dwarf life cycle is kept secret from non-dwarves. Vague legends exist, of course, but few outsiders know the truth.

Dwarves, of course, have no families. A class of caretakers looks after the children and gives them basic instruction until they are ready to be apprenticed. Human ideas of family sometimes confuse or alarm dwarves who are not used to dealing with such concepts and relationships.

[Innis Cabal]

The Hachi are a....socialist feudal state

There is -one- Queen ever at a time. She is....more then likely a Huge type creature. All serve that single Ultra-Hive. There are princes and princess's but the Queen is the ultimate form of "god" a conduit to the nature spirits. All serve the greater good of the Hachi race, but....its a light form of conformism, Hachi are free to do as they please as individuals, hives on the other hand serve the central Hive

[combatmedic]

The Hachi are a....socialist feudal state

There is -one- Queen ever at a time. She is....more then likely a Huge type creature. All serve that single Ultra-Hive. There are princes and princess's but the Queen is the ultimate form of "god" a conduit to the nature spirits. All serve the greater good of the Hachi race, but....its a light form of conformism, Hachi are free to do as they please as individuals, hives on the other hand serve the central Hive

Sounds cool. Socialist-feudalism with a theocratic/mystical element. Nice.


Oh, and my rockborn dwarves are merely a suggestion. If it's too weird, we should do something else.

[Innis Cabal]

I actually like it. Very creative and unique

[combatmedic]

I actually like it. Very creative and unique

Good, well, if everyone else likes it, we can incorporate it. If not, we'll just come up with something else to use.

[combatmedic]

Will kobolds will have favored class shadowcater? Something else?

Are the kobolds available as PCs, or are they pretty much a race of evil monsters to be fought and killed [as the default mode]?

[Innis Cabal]

It seems likely that they will have Shadow Caster as their favored class, and other shadow/illusion class's/prestige class's as well.

As a player race....I'm not sure really. Leave it to the other people

[combatmedic]

Let's discuss pact magic in greater detail, shall we? What are the Vestiges [or equivalent thereof] for this setting? How do pactbinders fit in?


I mentioned parallels with Voodoo, and that idea was well-received- maybe we should continue in that vein?
Of course, there's room for more than one take on pact magic.



Oh, and the Hachi- do they have shaman as their favored class, since we aren't using PHB druids?

[Innis Cabal]

Vestiges are the lost souls of powerful creatures, stored within the flow of energy that the earth holds that can be tapped by certain people

[combatmedic]

Vestiges are the lost souls of powerful creatures, stored within the flow of energy that the earth holds that can be tapped by certain people

Certain people being those trained in the lore and science of pactbinding. Yeah, I'm cool with this idea.

What's more, we could say these souls came to be 'stored' within the earth-flow because they were unwilling, or unable to pass on to the next world/plane of existence. In a sense, vestiges are super-ghosts. How's that?

[Innis Cabal]

Super Ghosts sounds....great, but needs renamed

[Ghal Marak]

How about this:

Dwarves have no sex. They are neither male nor female, though they mostly look ''male'' to human eyes. They have no generative organs and feel no lust of the flesh.

Dwarves come from earth-eggs- big geodes that dwarven miners uncover. These hollow rocks are filled with a crystalline matrix that houses a proto-dwarf in suspended animation. Secret rituals are used to quicken the life within, and the ''children'' are brought forth almost fully grown- but ignorant and bestial. These rituals, and indeed knowledge of the dwarf life cycle is kept secret from non-dwarves. Vague legends exist, of course, but few outsiders know the truth.

Dwarves, of course, have no families. A class of caretakers looks after the children and gives them basic instruction until they are ready to be apprenticed. Human ideas of family sometimes confuse or alarm dwarves who are not used to dealing with such concepts and relationships.

Hmm... intresting. It is kinda wierd, but thats not a bad thing. It dosen't seem like they would 'find' more dwarves fast enough though. In order to keep up with the loss of life in a war, they would have to dig up geodes as fast as they loose lives, and that's not taking into account the period of time nessisary to educate them.

SO, as a result, they cannot wage war like the other races. They would be careful about it. Methodical. Supreme strategists would be nessisary to coordinate units in the field to best counter the enemies counter and minimise the loss of life.

Cool. Alright, if we take it this way, then it's got my vote. :smallbiggrin:



The Hachi are a....socialist feudal state

There is -one- Queen ever at a time. She is....more then likely a Huge type creature. All serve that single Ultra-Hive. There are princes and princess's but the Queen is the ultimate form of "god" a conduit to the nature spirits. All serve the greater good of the Hachi race, but....its a light form of conformism, Hachi are free to do as they please as individuals, hives on the other hand serve the central Hive

Ah, I see. Thanks for clearing that up.


Certain people being those trained in the lore and science of pactbinding. Yeah, I'm cool with this idea.

What's more, we could say these souls came to be 'stored' within the earth-flow because they were unwilling, or unable to pass on to the next world/plane of existence. In a sense, vestiges are super-ghosts. How's that?

If I remember right, didn't we say that the dwarves would practice pact magic? Well, if we did, I propose that we switch it over to the Mushroom Folk as practitioners of pact magic.

As a peoples evolved from a fungus, it would make sense for them to make use of whatever magical energies they could tap into. Their close connection with the earth could allow them to detect the presence of the Vestiges, and so they came to use pact magic.

It's one line of reasoning, at any rate. If we actualy look hard enough, any race would be a good choice for possessing pact magic. So chosing might be difficult.

[Innis Cabal]

I think Pact magic, as you've pointed out it being rather good for a good deal of the races, should be...more...pervasive, yet rare....if that makes sense at all

[Ghal Marak]

I think Pact magic, as you've pointed out it being rather good for a good deal of the races, should be...more...pervasive, yet rare....if that makes sense at all

I think I know what you mean. It's more about talent than it is about learning? As in, you have to instinctively 'know' how to do it rather than be taught in a class.

So the talent for pact magic would pop up in all races, but in very few numbers.

[Innis Cabal]

Thats it exactly, yes

[Ghal Marak]

Alright then. Lets bring this back around on the Kobold.


It seems likely that they will have Shadow Caster as their favored class, and other shadow/illusion class's/prestige class's as well.

As a player race....I'm not sure really. Leave it to the other people

I'd have to say yeah, Shadowcaster sound like a solid choice for favored class, considering that is what we wanted to go for.

Now, as a player race? Well... for an evil campaign sure. I mean, these Kobold are going to be 'eviler' than ordinary Kobold by necessary, cause we determined that Shadow Magic has a corrupting influence on it's wielder. That is kind'a detriment to regular games. I mean, if they can make it work then sure, go for it.

That being said, do we want these Kobold to be mechanically different than regular Kobold?

[Innis Cabal]

They'd have to be to reflect the change in their apperance and power I think.

[Ghal Marak]

They'd have to be to reflect the change in their apperance and power I think.

Perhaps we could take a few pointers from the Dark template. I'll start tinkering with it. :smallsmile: Any ideas for a different approach?

[Innis Cabal]

I proposed a more old school concept of them, beastial dog men with a more...ape like build, walk on their hands and feet, big muscled arms. etc

[combatmedic]

I like Pact Magic as a tradition, something learned. Of course, it can still involve an innate sensitity to spirits and earth energies. It can and should be used by multiple races. I think that perhaps only the dwarves and fungoids are generally accepting of it, however. Does that work?

I agree about the dwarves' replacment rate and it's impact on warfare. That's why they have developed blackpowder weapons, toxin bombs, and all that fun stuff. Gotta kill or disable many, many foes for each dwarf that goes down in a a fight. Fortifications will be studded with death traps and redoubts. Ya, dwarves at war is nasty.

[combatmedic]

I proposed a more old school concept of them, beastial dog men with a more...ape like build, walk on their hands and feet, big muscled arms. etc

Dogmen rock! Let's keep them on the small side. They can still be very dangerous, especially if we play up their cunning and savagery.

[Ghal Marak]

I proposed a more old school concept of them, beastial dog men with a more...ape like build, walk on their hands and feet, big muscled arms. etc

Hmm... so... yeah, I've got nothing on it. I've only ever known Kobold as draconic kin, and never as the dog men. Well then, that changes things a bit. Do we have stat's handy, or are we going to have to write 'em from scratch?

[Innis Cabal]

We can keep them relatively the same honestly.

[Ghal Marak]

We can keep them relatively the same honestly.

:smallconfused: But as they stand, they are pretty far from what you described. Kobold are hardly muscular with a -4 Str penalty.

[Innis Cabal]

Just some stat changes, other then that, light sensitivty, etc can be retained. Probably a higher Str and Con, lower mental stats save int

[Ghal Marak]

+2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Wisdom, -4 Charisma.
Small size: +1 bonus to Armor Class, +1 bonus on attack rolls, +4 bonus on Hide checks, –4 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits 3/4 those of Medium characters.
A kobold’s base land speed is 30 feet.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
Racial Skills: A kobold character has a +2 racial bonus on ???
Special Qualities (see above): Light sensitivity.
Automatic Languages: Undercommon. Bonus Languages: Infernal
Favored Class: Shadowcaster.
Level adjustment +0.

Hows that? It's really rough, but we can build off it.

[Innis Cabal]

Looks good to me really. Give them.....infernal maybe for a bonus language

[Lyndworm]

I'm afraid that I don't have much helpful input here. For the record, I know kobolds as ancient germanic legends of mischevious ratmen, and dragonkin. Though I was aware that they had an incarnation as dogmen, I didn't become so until after the fact.

I love the dwarfpod idea, and the implications it has on their society and warfare. Should they be immortal, also? It seems logical that being born fully-formed from the heart of the earth might be immune to death by age, or maybe even natural sickness.

Zack

[Innis Cabal]

I like the idea of no aging. And you said you didnt have much helpful input

[Ghal Marak]

I'm afraid that I don't have much helpful input here. For the record, I know kobolds as ancient germanic legends of mischevious ratmen, and dragonkin. Though I was aware that they had an incarnation as dogmen, I didn't become so until after the fact.

I love the dwarfpod idea, and the implications it has on their society and warfare. Should they be immortal, also? It seems logical that being born fully-formed from the heart of the earth might be immune to death by age, or maybe even natural sickness.

Zack

Hmm... the non-aging thing is okay. But no natural sickness? Na, we could make them immune to 'normal' diseases and such, and then have fun making up dwarf only diseases. :smallbiggrin:

[Innis Cabal]

We'll need to remove the bonus's against giants though.

[Ghal Marak]

We'll need to remove the bonus's against giants though.

I thought we did that already. Dialing the bonus down and switching it from giants to creatures of Large size and up.

[Innis Cabal]

Oh, might have missed that

[Another_Poet]

I can see two possible offshoots of the 'dwarves born from earth eggs' idea.

First off, their views on vestiges could be weird. if vestiges are souls trapped in the earth flow, how are earth eggs and vestiges related? Do dwarf souls become new earth eggs, and non-dwarf souls become vestiges? Or can any soul become a vestige, and every vestige is connected to an earth egg - thus putting dwarves at odds with all people who mess around with their much-needed vestiges? I think this could be an intriguing subject.

Second, it seems likely that long-lived dwarves might stockpile earth eggs in protected places. That way, they can bring them out only when they have the best teachers or only when they are really needed, i.e. for war.

There could even be a special word for a dwarf who was sent directly into combat after being "birthed" rather than being civilised first. Could be cool flavour for dwarf barbarians.

[Ghal Marak]

I can see two possible offshoots of the 'dwarves born from earth eggs' idea.

First off, their views on vestiges could be weird. if vestiges are souls trapped in the earth flow, how are earth eggs and vestiges related? Do dwarf souls become new earth eggs, and non-dwarf souls become vestiges? Or can any soul become a vestige, and every vestige is connected to an earth egg - thus putting dwarves at odds with all people who mess around with their much-needed vestiges? I think this could be an intriguing subject.

Second, it seems likely that long-lived dwarves might stockpile earth eggs in protected places. That way, they can bring them out only when they have the best teachers or only when they are really needed, i.e. for war.

There could even be a special word for a dwarf who was sent directly into combat after being "birthed" rather than being civilised first. Could be cool flavour for dwarf barbarians.


Perhaps we should redefine what a vestige is.

Here's an idea. Vestiges 'are' souls. The soul is returned to the earth, where it is basicaly clensed and put into use once more. Pact magic does not tap into extra-planer beings, it taps into the memories of long dead heroes and ledgends to make use of the remains of their power. The problem with that idea is it wrecks the cosmology I layed out. If deities remove the souls and place them in their own domains, then that would reduce the next cycle of soul... stuff.

Another idea is that we just ditch the earth=soul idea and go with a modification of the above idea. Vestiges are souls, and they grant their power to worthy indevidulas from their respective afterlives as part of a complicated universal law. But, since all souls are basicaly Vestiges, that means that there are a lot of 'worthless' pacts to sift through. I mean sure, if you wanted to have a supernatural way with farming equipment, form a pact with a dead Farmer. That would explain the difficulty of binding, you have to get a good lock on the vestige you want to use.

Now onto the other parts. Yeah, I can see the dwarves stockpiling 'em. I can also see the zerg rush approach you mentioned. Perhaps they use that as a destraction for their true attack. I mean, your more likely to pay attention to the hoard of screaming dwarves charging you than a small group of Dwarven Commandos sneaking around the back. :smallsmile:

EDIT: Hmm... I think I'm going to start working out how I think the Mushroom Folk scociety would opperate. I've also got a few ideas on something that could be unique to 'em. Anywho, I'll post it later. :smallwink:

EDITEDIT: Oh yeah, and this is in my opinion an accurite picture of how the Mushroom Folk should look. link (http://www.mushroommen.com/) There is better pictures inside the site.

[Innis Cabal]

Awsome pictures, and i like the above idea

[Ghal Marak]

Awsome pictures, and i like the above idea

Which? I presented three. :smalltongue:

[Innis Cabal]

Sorry

The last two.

It would give a good reason as to why creatures go to war against one another, to gain vestiges. The souls and spirits of the earth itself, the only real protection against the ever present and all consuming Hungry Dark

[combatmedic]

I don't think dwarves should be immortal or immune to disease- just very long lived and tough. That is, of course, exactly as they are written in the PHB.

As for life cycle, try this:


When a dwarf nears the natural end of his life cycle, he senses that he must return to the earth. Dwarves bury their dead in the deep, secret places of the underworld. They know that the flesh will fossilize [a peculiar phenomenon unique to dwarf bodies, this happens much faster than it would with other creatures], and the spirit will be bourne away on the earth currents to deposit elswhere and form the nucleus of an earth-egg. The earth-flows may carry a dwarf's soul far from his burial place, and the deepest currents are difficult to track. It isn't an exact science.

Because of all that, dwarves are very particular about burial, treatment of the dead, etc. A dwarf who's body is lost on the surface world will not reincarnate! Because of this, dwarves will spare little expense to recover the bodies of and dead dwarf, even an enemy.

How is that?

[Ghal Marak]

Sorry

The last two.

It would give a good reason as to why creatures go to war against one another, to gain vestiges. The souls and spirits of the earth itself, the only real protection against the ever present and all consuming Hungry Dark

No problem. Let me see if I understand this right.

By default, on death the soul is swallowed by the Hungry Dark (as you have named it) and never seen again. But, because he/she/it worship a god, their soul is instead plucked away before slipping down into the Hungry Dark by thier god and sent to their personal heaven/hell.

Binders can bind these souls (as in their name) into contracts that grant the Binders great personal power, and they have to be pretty knowledge to do so. However, this knowledge is not shared equaly among Binders. So, war is one of the many methods of gaining information on new vestiges. Torture of captured Binders would be an example.

However, the idea that a community/city/race would go to war over this information would lead to the understanding that this information is important. One of the few ways knoweldge about pact magic would be important would be if Binders inherently hold a high position among their respective peoples, and the improvement of said Binders would increase their value to their leaders. Thereby, war to obtain the vestige information would be deemed worth it.

At least, that's what I got from reading your post.

EDIT:
I don't think dwarves should be immortal or immune to disease- just very long lived and tough. That is, of course, exactly as they are written in the PHB.

As for life cycle, try this:


When a dwarf nears the natural end of his life cycle, he senses that he must return to the earth. Dwarves bury their dead in the deep, secret places of the underworld. They know that the flesh will fossilize [a peculiar phenomenon unique to dwarf bodies, this happens much faster than it would with other creatures], and the spirit will be bourne away on the earth currents to deposit elswhere and form the nucleus of an earth-egg. The earth-flows may carry a dwarf's soul far from his burial place, and the deepest currents are difficult to track. It isn't an exact science.

Because of all that, dwarves are very particular about burial, treatment of the dead, etc. A dwarf who's body is lost on the surface world will not reincarnate! Because of this, dwarves will spare little expense to recover the bodies of and dead dwarf, even an enemy.

How is that?

I like it. It's Cyclic. But, you mentioned an enemy? So your saying that not all Dwarves are working together? I can see that. Now that their great enemy (Giants) has been defeated (mostly) they break up into different communities, which given time can develop different ways of thinking. Which ultimately leads to contention.

[Innis Cabal]

As the godly cosmology is written up there are three forces and three pantheons in the world

The Three Forces are

The Hungry Dark( or what ever it will end up as)

The Shining Light (See above)

And the Earth Flow-where the vestiges come and go

The gods are posted....earlier, and comprise elements of the world/law chaos and balance

The Evil gods, all of whom serve(or might be entities of) the Hungry Dark

And the Good Gods, all of whom at least know of the Shining Light, but do not really....serve it, more like respect and honor its force in the world.

When a soul is....passed on and it was wicked, more then likely the evil gods will suck it up and either take it, or feed it to the Dark. If it was good, it probably ends up in the Earth Flow, where it becomes a vestige, and if it was truely rightous, it joines the Light or the other gods.

[combatmedic]

Yeah, I don't think all dwarves have to be united. They should avoid wasteful wars and mass killing of one another, naturally. Maybe combat of champions to first blood is a normal way of settling rancorous disputes between individuals or communities?

[Ghal Marak]

As the godly cosmology is written up there are three forces and three pantheons in the world

The Three Forces are

The Hungry Dark( or what ever it will end up as)

The Shining Light (See above)

And the Earth Flow-where the vestiges come and go

The gods are posted....earlier, and comprise elements of the world/law chaos and balance

The Evil gods, all of whom serve(or might be entities of) the Hungry Dark

And the Good Gods, all of whom at least know of the Shining Light, but do not really....serve it, more like respect and honor its force in the world.

When a soul is....passed on and it was wicked, more then likely the evil gods will suck it up and either take it, or feed it to the Dark. If it was good, it probably ends up in the Earth Flow, where it becomes a vestige, and if it was truely rightous, it joines the Light or the other gods.

Ah, I see now. That makes sense. But, how does the Binder learn of the Vestige's existance? For example, a Human Binder is tooling around his castle in his new carrige, and hundreds of miles away a Paladin finaly succumbs to dire wounds after slaying a rampaging beast that would have surely destroyed the nearby town. In passing, he becomes a vestige. Does the Binder instantly know? If not, how would he come to figure out that there is a new vestige?

EDIT:
Yeah, I don't think all dwarves have to be united. They should avoid wasteful wars and mass killing of one another, naturally. Maybe combat of champions to first blood is a normal way of settling rancorous disputes between individuals or communities?

That would work.

[Innis Cabal]

I also see the planer set up far far simpler then that of standard worlds

A single elemental plane, constantly at war with itself

A single dark plane, much like the Plane of Shadow only more dangerous, toxic and vile. A mix of the Neg Eng Plane, with the Plane of Shadow and the Abyss/Baator

The Plane of Light, Positive Energy plane and Elysium more or less combined

And the plane of the vestiges and earth energies, a giant ocean of earth and moss and growth, an explosion of life so unsutiable for life just looking at it blinds you forever

Edit: I would assume much like a wizard learns of a new spell. Word of Mouth and such. With all the people becoming vestiges I hardly think a new one would be heralded as a grand event. The loss of a powerful individual, a King or Such, might make tremors in the Earth Flow, and alert powerful Binders who tell those that serve under them

[Ghal Marak]

I also see the planer set up far far simpler then that of standard worlds

A single elemental plane, constantly at war with itself

A single dark plane, much like the Plane of Shadow only more dangerous, toxic and vile. A mix of the Neg Eng Plane, with the Plane of Shadow and the Abyss/Baator

The Plane of Light, Positive Energy plane and Elysium more or less combined

And the plane of the vestiges and earth energies, a giant ocean of earth and moss and growth, an explosion of life so unsutiable for life just looking at it blinds you forever

Hmm... I'll do the changes to the cosmology picture thingy to reflect this. Cool idea.

[Innis Cabal]

Also edited to answer your question

[combatmedic]

Shadow magic is connected to/ flows from the hungry dark.

Divine magic comes from the gods or their go-betweens.

Pact magic is powered by the Vestiges.


Truenaming is basically messing around with the 'code' of the universe, so the truenamer is actually rewritting/erasing/altering tiny portions of that code. uusally, it's temporary, but some dits are permanent.



Does arcane magic exist, and if so, what's the source? The earth-flow?

[Innis Cabal]

Arcane magic is blood magic.

[combatmedic]

Arcane magic is blood magic.

As in the maho type stuff? Is it actually powered by bloodletting? The caster's blood or something else's blood? Both? Animal sacrifices?

Or is it ''magic in the blood''- inherited magic like that used by a dragon-descended sorcerer in other settings?

[Innis Cabal]

Both. Probably make a 4th power dedicated to it. A more....CE force. Though arcane magic could also work with the Elemental powers as well. I really like the Elemental Princes of Good and Evil

[Ghal Marak]

Sorry for weaving in and out of the discussion. I'm in the middle of my Accounting homework. :smallsigh: Have a look. Link (http://mh.brownstone.net/web/wildFAP18e/Public_Html/ch01/Exhibit_1_9.jpg) I gotta understand that crap. :smallfrown:


Anywho, I like the idea of Arcane magic coming from blood.

[combatmedic]

Both. Probably make a 4th power dedicated to it. A more....CE force. Though arcane magic could also work with the Elemental powers as well. I really like the Elemental Princes of Good and Evil





Elemental...hmmmmm- in that case, I'd reorganize the schools into elemental schools. Instead of necromancy, evocation, etc, you'd have the elemental schools of earth, air, etc. Maybe add a Universal category as a catch all for spells that don't fit well into any single elemntal catgeory. I'd also require sorecers to choose an elemnt.


Hmmmm, what about using a modified wu jen instead of the sorcerer, if you want to go elemental?

The blood magic types could be done with the Maho sorcerers from Oriental Adventures [3E, not the original].

[combatmedic]

Sorry for weaving in and out of the discussion. I'm in the middle of my Accounting homework. :smallsigh: Have a look. Link (http://mh.brownstone.net/web/wildFAP18e/Public_Html/ch01/Exhibit_1_9.jpg) I gotta understand that crap. :smallfrown:


Anywho, I like the idea of Arcane magic coming from blood.



Noooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!

It hurtses us, nasty accountantses.......eehhh......

[Innis Cabal]

Yay math....

Wu Jen would work, though metal would be more aligned with the Earth Flow then the elemental lords.

Where as sonic would be more...bardic magic, perhaps make the Lyrical Theurgist a powerful force in the world?

[combatmedic]

Yay math....

Wu Jen would work, though metal would be more aligned with the Earth Flow then the elemental lords.

Where as sonic would be more...bardic magic, perhaps make the Lyrical Theurgist a powerful force in the world?



I like where you are going with this.

Another possibility would be to just ditch Metal spells for the wu jen and use an expanded bard spell list for Sound.

Metal spells could then be given to a variant class based on the bard. The 'steelsingers' use Sound to activate and manipulate the essence of not only Earth, but the other elements in metals.

That , or we could create alchemist swordsmen, based on a modified duskblade.

Maybe that doesn't fit, though.....

[combatmedic]

Hmmm, or just ditch metal and use an expanded bard spell list for Sonic focused 'wu jen'.

Metal spells could then be given to a variant class based on the bard. The 'steelsingers' use Sound to activate and manipulate the essence of not only Earth, but the other elements in metals.

That , or we could create alchemist swordsmen, based on a modified duskblade.

Maybe that doesn't fit, though.....



Is Lyrical Theurgist a PRC?

[Innis Cabal]

Ya, its in Complete...Mage if I recall

[combatmedic]

Ya, its in Complete...Mage if I recall

Aha, I don't own that one.

I vote we go with your idea about bards. It fits, I think.

I'll save steelsingers and/or alchemist-swordsmen for my next setting project [I love doodling about with world design].

In fact the alchemist-swordsmen would possibly fit my ''devils in Asia'' alt 17th Century world, posted over on the homebrew alt hist contest.

[Darkkwalker]

Vestiges.
I can see an incredably evil Binder training a beast/person up to great heights only to kill them and use them as a vestige.
Does this work? I don't know the mechanics of it.

[Innis Cabal]

Not really...no

[combatmedic]

Not really...no



I don't think it's just a matter of levels, HD, or anything easily measurable in game terms. Just my opinion, of course.

[Innis Cabal]

Not you, the post before me

[combatmedic]

I don't think it's just a matter of levels, HD, or anything easily measurable in game terms. Just my opinion, of course.

Oh no, I was agreeing with you about the vestiges. Sorry if I was unclear.

[Innis Cabal]

Ah, yes, i see, carry on

[combatmedic]

So, something like this?-

Shadow Magic[Hungry Dark/shadoworld ]= shadowcaster

Pact Magic[Vestiges]= binder

Truename Magic[truespeech =cosmic code]= truenamer

Divine Magic[gods, spirits]= favored souls and adepts

Arcane Magic [direct manipulation of elemental energies, such as the earthflow]= sorcercer and bard

[Innis Cabal]

Arcane magic= Energy minipulation/blood magic

[Ghal Marak]

So, something like this?-

Shadow Magic[Hungry Dark/shadoworld ]= shadowcaster

Pact Magic[Vestiges]= binder

Truename Magic[truespeech =cosmic code]= truenamer

Divine Magic[gods, spirits]= favored souls and adepts

Arcane Magic [direct manipulation of elemental energies, such as the earthflow]= sorcercer and bard

Seems right to me.

[combatmedic]

Arcane magic= Energy minipulation/blood magic

Blood magic could even be considered a variant form of elementalism- water and iron, along with other stuff, in your blood. It's alive, so the elemental components may be at a higher 'pitch'. Does that make any sense to you?

[Innis Cabal]

Perfect sense to me.

[combatmedic]

Perfect sense to me.


Let's talk a little about non-magic [or non primary caster] classes.

My suggested list includes:

fighter
rogue
scout
barbarian

[Ghal Marak]

Let's talk a little about non-magic [or non primary caster] classes.

My suggested list includes:

fighter
rogue
scout
barbarian


Hmmm... well... most of that works just fine. In fact, that could be taken as the baseline. Of course, certain cultures would have predilection towards one class over the other (Kenku and rogues springs to mind). We need to expand upon the list however. I'm blanking though.

[combatmedic]

Hmmm... well... most of that works just fine. In fact, that could be taken as the baseline. Of course, certain cultures would have predilection towards one class over the other (Kenku and rogues springs to mind). We need to expand upon the list however. I'm blanking though.


Okay, shall we add knight class from PHB2 as a replacement for the paladin? I think the knight is available as a free excerpt on the WotC site, by the way.

I've got no issue with spellcasting rangers from the PHB- provided we define the source of their powers.

[Ghal Marak]

Okay, shall we add knight class from PHB2 as a replacement for the paladin? I think the knight is available as a free excerpt on the WotC site, by the way.

That would be a great replacement.

[combatmedic]

That would be a great replacement.
Kewl beans.


I must sleep now. G'nite.

[Ghal Marak]

New Cosmological map. It's no Zeta Kai piece, but it will do. :smallsmile:

http://i535.photobucket.com/albums/ee358/Ghalmarak/GiantsintheEarthCosmology.png

Everything is suspended within the Ethervast, which you travel through when going between the planes.

So what do you guys think?

EDIT: Oh, and I took some liberties with the names. If you don't like 'em, their easily changed.

[Zeta Kai]

New Cosmological map.

That looks good. I rather like the names.

[combatmedic]

I like this arrangement of the planes.

[Another_Poet]

Yeah, I don't think all dwarves have to be united. They should avoid wasteful wars and mass killing of one another, naturally. Maybe combat of champions to first blood is a normal way of settling rancorous disputes between individuals or communities?

This!

And, I think it should be common practice that dwarves only fight other dwarves in hidden places where the other races can't see.

[combatmedic]

This!

And, I think it should be common practice that dwarves only fight other dwarves in hidden places where the other races can't see.

Ah, I like the notion of concealing things from the other races. Very dwarvish.

Stat-wise, I think only the most minor of alterations wil be needed. Mostly, the dwarves can follow the PHB rules. Playing around with the bonus vs giants has been mentioned. I think that's probably a good idea.

[Innis Cabal]

All of it looks great to me

[Ghal Marak]

That looks good. I rather like the names.

Thanks! I hope you didn't take offence at that remark. :smalleek:


I like this arrangement of the planes.

Thank you. I should have actualy made the light plane a little smaller. I was going for a distance thing, like the Material plane is up close, the other two are mid way, and the light plane was way in the back. But as it is... it's acceptable.

[Innis Cabal]

So only 4 "color" pools in the Ethervast.

Where is the Earth Flow located? In the material? Along side it?

[Ghal Marak]

So only 4 "color" pools in the Ethervast.

Where is the Earth Flow located? In the material? Along side it?

I had thought that the Earth Flow was coterminous with the Material. At least, that's what I had assumed with all that talk of vestiges going to the earth. I was a bit confused by it all. *shrug* Oh well, One more could be added easliy.

[Innis Cabal]

I saw it more as a "Lifestream" set up, a deep...river of growth and life and....earthyness... that flows through the world. Sort of a natureistic collective unconcious

[Ghal Marak]

I saw it more as a "Lifestream" set up, a deep...river of growth and life and....earthyness... that flows through the world. Sort of a natureistic collective unconcious

Hmm... perhaps that can still be done. I'll fiddle around with a second image and post it here later.

[Innis Cabal]

Sounds good to me.

I just see this....vast glowing tree, its root imbeded deep into the soul of every living creature, pulsing with energy, giving life the needed...source to continue, and the dark energy of the Hungry Dark feasting on the roots like a locust swarm. Snuffing out the "earth" the tree's grow into

[Ghal Marak]

Heres a first try. It's not added in with the others yet.

http://i535.photobucket.com/albums/ee358/Ghalmarak/TheWorldTree.png

[Innis Cabal]

Hahaha, thats awsome, that works for me

[Ghal Marak]

Thank you. Kinda rudementery as it is, but I'll keep tinkering with it.

[Innis Cabal]

It reminds me of Yggdrasil

[Ghal Marak]

Final Fantasy... Ten was it? It had a giant tree thing as well.

Here is an intresting idea; do we want an actual giant tree in the setting? Not as large as what I drew, but perhaps up to scale for the Giants of the past.

[Innis Cabal]

Probably would solidify the whole concept. Perhaps place it in the oldest of the giant's cities, where the empire stood. Place the main Hachi hive in its upper reachs, the mushroom men at its base and under the roots that poke from the ground and the dwarves under it? Have them be the "original" nation of each

Those are the three more nature inclinded races.

[combatmedic]

It reminds me of Yggdrasil

Yeah! That was the first thing that sprang into my mind, seeing the pic.

[Innis Cabal]

There is a slight nordic feel to it all through out

[combatmedic]

Probably would solidify the whole concept. Perhaps place it in the oldest of the giant's cities, where the empire stood. Place the main Hachi hive in its upper reachs, the mushroom men at its base and under the roots that poke from the ground and the dwarves under it? Have them be the "original" nation of each

Those are the three more nature inclinded races.

I agree with this.

[combatmedic]

There is a slight nordic feel to it all through out

Giants, dwarves, possibly trolls- yeah, I can see that.

[Innis Cabal]

I think trolls are needed as a major mutation from Giants, a

"Look what we are now because of the Hungry Dark"

[combatmedic]

I think trolls are needed as a major mutation from Giants, a

"Look what we are now because of the Hungry Dark"


Yeah, mutation definitely works.

This poem has been translated from O.E. into Modern English-



A king shall rule. Cities are to be seen far off,
cunning work of giants, which are on the earth,
wondrous work of wall-stones. Wind is swift in the sky,
thunder is loudest at seasons. The glories of Christ are great.
Fate is strongest. Winter is coldest;
spring most frosty; it is longest cold;
summer most fair with sunshine; the sun is hottest;
autumn most glorious; it brings to men
the fruits of the year which God sends them.
Truth is plainest; treasure is most precious,
gold for all men, and the aged man most wise,
old in years gone by, who before endured many things.
Woe is wondrous clinging. The clouds go on their way.

Translated by R.K.Gordon (Anglo-Saxon Poetry Selected and Translated. London 1934)

The line about ''cunning work of giants'' refers to the Roman ruins and roads in Britain, which deeply impressed the early Anglo-Saxons, who'd never seen anything like it before. I remember coming across that in reading about Tolkien [who was deeply into all of this stuff, of course] and being taken by it. For me, it creates a vivid image of barbarians living amidst the crumbling but still-magnificent remains of a fallen civilization.

[Innis Cabal]

I really think that is the way we should go.

These races huddling in terror and seeking protection against an all consuming, emotionless darkness and having nothing, no one to turn to. All alone, in their villages with their lights....all their sound and rage meaning nothing

[combatmedic]

I really think that is the way we should go.

These races huddling in terror and seeking protection against an all consuming, emotionless darkness and having nothing, no one to turn to. All alone, in their villages with their lights....all their sound and rage meaning nothing

It can be seen as a grim setting, yes. I don't want a Disneyland sort of world. Things can get rough. There is real Evil in the world, and it can be very powerful.

Ah , but there remains the Light. The gods of Good exist. There is something to turn to.

[Another_Poet]

I don't wanna rock the boat too much, but...

Well, I love everything written above. The feel of this world, this grimness, it's all good. But should it really be the hungry dark and the shining light? Isn't that, you know, well, YAWN?

What if cold was evil, and warmth/sacred fire was good? The Hungry Cold from beneath the earth could be the bad force... and considering that people go cold when they die, how terrifying is that?

What if storms/rain were evil, and the world is almost constantly overcast and drizzly; rare days of pure sunlight are the blessed occasions, and the sun is the one people pray to? The Drowning could replace the Hungry Dark.

What if there is an ancient devil-like figure, who was prophesied to awaken and return to earth exactly three months ago? Make the evil a person, rather than abstract darkness. Did he really return? If so, why haven't we seen him? Was the prophesy false? Confusion and cynicism would reign.

Or, here's one last one. What if we take Norse mythology to its conclusion - if giants ruled the earth in the past, then, that means we're living after the days when the giants killed the gods. We're living after Ragnarok. Evil won, evil flourished, evil passed away - all that's left is ruins. Replace the moon in the night sky with a belt of red "stars" (fragments of the destroyed moon drifting as a ring around the planet) and you're set.

I'm not saying any one of the four ideas above is perfect for this world. I'm just saying that I could think up four scenarios besides "light vs. dark" in under two minutes of typing. Instead of holy light/evil shadow black/white trope/cliche tired/bored same ol/same ol, there could be a whole different cosmology at play.

*hides*

[Ghal Marak]

I don't wanna rock the boat too much, but...

Don't worry about that. This is a comunal effort. If you have ideas, then share them. :smallsmile:


Well, I love everything written above. The feel of this world, this grimness, it's all good. But should it really be the hungry dark and the shining light? Isn't that, you know, well, YAWN?

I agree. It is a little too set in this trope. Perhaps we need to rethink this, as you have mentioned.


What if cold was evil, and warmth/sacred fire was good? The Hungry Cold from beneath the earth could be the bad force... and considering that people go cold when they die, how terrifying is that?

Funny, I was actualy working on a curch/religion that focused on this (for a different project). The Eight Sacred Flames. Needs a better name though. Each flame (meaning sect among the chirch) represented a different aspect of a Fire God.


What if storms/rain were evil, and the world is almost constantly overcast and drizzly; rare days of pure sunlight are the blessed occasions, and the sun is the one people pray to? The Drowning could replace the Hungry Dark.

I like this idea, for the most part. I don't know about rain being evil, but the world being overcast and drizzly I like. If only because I love it when it gets like that in real life. :smallbiggrin:


What if there is an ancient devil-like figure, who was prophesied to awaken and return to earth exactly three months ago? Make the evil a person, rather than abstract darkness. Did he really return? If so, why haven't we seen him? Was the prophesy false? Confusion and cynicism would reign.

We can still include that even if it isn't taken as the 'Ultimate Evil'. A particularly well known Giant, who instilled much fear in the Dwarves, was prophesized to return one day and take his vengence upon the Dwarves. That time is passed, and nothing has happened. So, the Dwarves (perhaps it is a specific clan) have taken upon themselves to activly searching for it in order to pre-emptively put an end to it. But after so long with no results, the Dwarves are starting to question wether it has actualy happened.


Or, here's one last one. What if we take Norse mythology to its conclusion - if giants ruled the earth in the past, then, that means we're living after the days when the giants killed the gods. We're living after Ragnarok. Evil won, evil flourished, evil passed away - all that's left is ruins. Replace the moon in the night sky with a belt of red "stars" (fragments of the destroyed moon drifting as a ring around the planet) and you're set.

Hmm... I don't know about god killing in this setting. In fact, other than setting up which gods exist currently, we haven't spoken on what gods used to exist, and how they shaped the cosmos. I think we need to take another look into it. Oh, also, the moon thing is pretty cool, very remnisant of Thundar the Barbarian.

[Another_Poet]

My favourite thing to do for RPG theology is take the Greek gods, don't give any of them alignment, and let each cleric coose any 2 domains and any god or gods they choose.

We could do similar with the Norse gods, though less players know much Norse mythology.

I love the eight aspects of the fire god idea. I've always thought of a fire/cold dualism as a cool idea for a sort of ice-agey, hunter-gatherer-tribey, lone-shaman-on-a-questy type setting. The idea of applying it to a more medieval setting like this sounds awesome.

[Innis Cabal]

The names and concepts can change :P don't worry about it. Have to work from somewhere

But, a world that never has sun or very rarely does will not have as strong a nature pulse as we seem to be going for. At least, not trees and such. Sunlight is an important aspect to the growth of most vegitation.


As for a slumbering evil returning, same with the light and dark, very....done. Not that its a bad idea but if we want to remove alot of the cilche elements, Demonic/infernal bringers of ancient wrath is more then done

[Ghal Marak]

But, a world that never has sun or very rarely does will not have as strong a nature pulse as we seem to be going for. At least, not trees and such. Sunlight is an important aspect to the growth of most vegitation.

Ah, I forgot about that. Perhaps such effects are localized? Or maybe four days out of the year bad weather rolls across the continent.

[Innis Cabal]

That would make more sense.

I love gray pouring rain type days myself, but....for more then 3 weeks its pretty detrimental to the ecosystem.

We didnt even hit the fact of floods and disease that it would cause

[Bago!!!]

I Love This! Can I Help? Can I? Please,please,please!??

[Another_Poet]

I would suggest the following:

-Let's choose the weather we like AND the terrain we like and not worry about the biology. If we have tonnes of hardwood forests and every day is grey, that's fine. If someone wants to explain it...

...say the trees use something besides just cholorphyll. Maybe they supplement their light-dependency with some heat-dependency. Anyone who goes to sleep for the night inside a forest is likely to be slowly heat-bled all night long. The trees draw out the body temperature of unprotected animals and put it to use the same way some algae live off of thermal vents in the ocean floor. Of course, local animals ae either immune or know how to find the places where the trees' power is weak.

This meshes with a cold-is-evil mentality and makes the world a little more dangerous. I mean, friggin' vampiric trees. But Survival checks could identify safe places to sleep and even in unsafe places he players would get Fort saves to resist. It wouldn't be a party-killer, just a nightly trap to think about in certain areas.

Alternately, if fifteen-foot ferns are a stable of the forests as suggested in my post about the giants' food sources, those would do fine with more shade.

-Daily rain would bring flooding, but daily greyness would not. If we had the same average rainfall as Britain (i.e. daily drizzles but not many flash floods) but less sunny days, that would work.

-Innis Cabal, you're right, the return of a sleeping evil is a trope. But a sleeping evil who was supposed to return and didn't... that's kind of new. Still, no sleeping evil is fine by me. I just wanted to get away from the dark/light duality.

[Ghal Marak]

I Love This! Can I Help? Can I? Please,please,please!??

By all means, if you have some ideas then go for it. :smallsmile:

[Innis Cabal]

I dont think the Dark/Light duality is a bad one to have, its native to every world with a sun, not the good and evil to it. But, neither the Hungry Dark or Shining Light need to be either good or evil. They should really be TN, working as they work with little to no concern to mortal or godly powers.

But I dont have a problem with changing it, but there are alot more problems to take into account with gloomy perpetual rain envirnoments. Disease for one. If its always cold, and the races(mushrooms and bee like people among them) have to be suited for it. If not cabin fever(more diseases) and other such problems would araise. I'm not against it at all, but there are things that go hand in hand with it all

[combatmedic]

That would make more sense.

I love gray pouring rain type days myself, but....for more then 3 weeks its pretty detrimental to the ecosystem.

We didnt even hit the fact of floods and disease that it would cause

Ah, I see you didn't grow up in Western Oregon. :smallsmile:

[Innis Cabal]

Nope, But its also a temperate rain forest, are we going to say the whole world is a temperate rain forest?

[Ghal Marak]

Nope, But its also a temperate rain forest, are we going to say the whole world is a temperate rain forest?

Dosen't make much sense to. I still think that a few days of supernaturaly bad weather is the way to go. It could be something of a 'Days of Witching (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witching_hour)'.

[combatmedic]

Nope, But its also a temperate rain forest, are we going to say the whole world is a temperate rain forest?

Nope, that would be lame, IMO


We have dry desert in Oregon, too. Rainshadow effect from the mountains!

[Innis Cabal]

Was just playing devils advocate, id prefer not to do that as well. I like the limited bad weather idea

[Ghal Marak]

Was just playing devils advocate, id prefer not to do that as well. I like the limited bad weather idea

Also, we can throw in something like this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_air).

[combatmedic]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plane_of_Shadow

Back onto cosmology for a minute.....




There are three material planes:

The uppermost is the hyper-living world of endless day.The positive energies suffusing the plane make everything grow and regenerate quickly.

The middle world is the Earth, home of the giants, men, dwarves, 'shroomies,etc. Light and dark, heat and cold, life and death are in balance here.

The lower world is the world of twlight and gloom- a shadoworld. Death is stronger here, and negative energies whirl and eddy throughout the plane.

Edit- Night Air could actually be nocturnal intrusions from the Shadowworld.

[Innis Cabal]

So going for a Yggdrasil theme then?

[combatmedic]

So going for a Yggdrasil theme then?



Yeah, somewhat. If we don't actually use a worldtree[ I'm 100% cool with a tree, though!] then maybe the earthflow actually connects all three worlds in some way... I dunno.

[Another_Poet]

Remember that we can keep our "forces of good/evil" separate from our environment. I happened to suggest both the cold-vs-fire cosmology and the grey skies idea, but that doesn't mean the both of them have to go together.

I'm not super attached to the grey, drizzly weather. The map we have looks like it's got varied biomes and that will probably call for varied weather.

An idea for the deities. If we have Hungry Cold and Sacred Fire, the main religion (at least for humans) could be a monotheistic church that worships the hearth goddess, Vesta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vesta_(mythology)). It would be monotheistic in the sense that She is their "main" god, the one they think is most important; it doesn't mean they don't believe the other gods exist.

All towns would have at least one virgin priestess serving Vesta, and a little sacred hearth in a shrine. Cities would have large temples with dozens of priestesses taking turns watching over a never-extinguished fire. It might be a nice twist to say that the fire has to be natural, not magical, so the priestesses are very careful in keeping it burning.

In Rome, the penalty for a Vestal priestess breaking her chastity vow was death (by being buried alive!). This could provide some interesting plot hooks, say, if a priestess was falsely accused, or if she was divinely impregnated by a god but no one believes her.

Just ideas. Take 'em, leave 'em or tweak as needed.

[Innis Cabal]

There was a god set up table somewhere

But the idea, as by the planes as well

There are three groups

The Elemental and Law/Chaos gods, both are the same set,

The Good gods

and the Evil gods

Then there were three(maybe 4) world forces
The Hungry Dark
The Shining Light
and the Earth Flow
The 4th might be Blood Magic, but we are still...debating that fully.

[combatmedic]

Remember that we can keep our "forces of good/evil" separate from our environment. I happened to suggest both the cold-vs-fire cosmology and the grey skies idea, but that doesn't mean the both of them have to go together.

I'm not super attached to the grey, drizzly weather. The map we have looks like it's got varied biomes and that will probably call for varied weather.

An idea for the deities. If we have Hungry Cold and Sacred Fire, the main religion (at least for humans) could be a monotheistic church that worships the hearth goddess, Vesta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vesta_(mythology)). It would be monotheistic in the sense that She is their "main" god, the one they think is most important; it doesn't mean they don't believe the other gods exist.

All towns would have at least one virgin priestess serving Vesta, and a little sacred hearth in a shrine. Cities would have large temples with dozens of priestesses taking turns watching over a never-extinguished fire. It might be a nice twist to say that the fire has to be natural, not magical, so the priestesses are very careful in keeping it burning.

In Rome, the penalty for a Vestal priestess breaking her chastity vow was death (by being buried alive!). This could provide some interesting plot hooks, say, if a priestess was falsely accused, or if she was divinely impregnated by a god but no one believes her.

Just ideas. Take 'em, leave 'em or tweak as needed.


This looks good, BUT....

We've got a pantheon already.


I think your set-up would work better for an Ice Age setting. I'm not sold on the cold=bad, fire=good cosmology.

edit: Light vs dark, while perhaps overused, fits our conception of shadow magic as a dangerous and corrupting force. That's the main thing that sold me on the idea, in fact.

[Ghal Marak]

Edit- Night Air could actually be nocturnal intrusions from the Shadowworld.

Perhaps combine all three ideas. A few days out of the year, the Shadow plane becomes slightly coterminous with the world, and the nights are filled with horrors. It would be unsafe to go out at night, and even the days would be muted and lackluster. It could then be followed by celebration, as everything goes back to normal. Representing the night being banished by the day.

I'm definately seeing the Humans as being the supersticious ones in this setting.

[Darkkwalker]

Perhaps combine all three ideas. A few days out of the year, the Shadow plane becomes slightly coterminous with the world, and the nights are filled with horrors. It would be unsafe to go out at night, and even the days would be muted and lackluster. It could then be followed by celebration, as everything goes back to normal. Representing the night being banished by the day.

I'm definately seeing the Humans as being the supersticious ones in this setting.

You could take it even further.
I can imagine a major hook being that the Nights of Horror were supposed to end X days ago. And the PC's have to do something about it. Maybe a bit cliche.
Just throwin' it out there.

[combatmedic]

All this talk about specfic times of years, climate, etc has got me thinking....

Is the world a round planet orbiting a sun?

If so, how long is the year? How long is the typical day/night cycle?

A good portion of the main continent appears to be in the temeperate zone of the southern hemipshere [assuming a round, Earthlike world], something we should keep in mind when discussing climate, seasons, and calenders.


I am in favor of a basically Earthlike world: round planet about the size of Earth, circling a star similiar to Sol. The year lasts roughly as long as our year, and the seaons are similiar. 24 hour day/night cycle. One moon [or possibly more, but we should keep in mind the effects on tides, lycanthropes,etc].

I don't care if everything matches up with realistic planetology, geology,etc. This is fantasy, not hard SF.

If we go with a round planet, I suggest we need a calander. The giants probably had an calender keeping track of the times for plantings, harvests, religious festivals, etc . Maybe the other, smaller races often use a giant-derived calender? It would provide a certain amount of commonality, useful for trade and communications. There may also be racial or regional calenders.

[combatmedic]

I Love This! Can I Help? Can I? Please,please,please!??

If you've got ideas/criticism/suggestions, feel free to post them here.

[Ghal Marak]

All this talk about specfic times of years, climate, etc has got me thinking....

Is the world a round planet orbiting a sun?

If so, how long is the year? How long is the typical day/night cycle?

A good portion of the main continent appears to be in the temeperate zone of the southern hemipshere [assuming a round, Earthlike world], something we should keep in mind when discussing climate, seasons, and calenders.


I am in favor of a basically Earthlike world: round planet about the size of Earth, circling a star similiar to Sol. The year lasts roughly as long as our year, and the seaons are similiar. 24 hour day/night cycle. One moon [or possibly more, but we should keep in mind the effects on tides, lycanthropes,etc].

I don't care if everything matches up with realistic planetology, geology,etc. This is fantasy, not hard SF.

If we go with a round planet, I suggest we need a calander. The giants probably had an calender keeping track of the times for plantings, harvests, religious festivals, etc . Maybe the other, smaller races often use a giant-derived calender? It would provide a certain amount of commonality, useful for trade and communications. There may also be racial or regional calenders.

Sure, I support the round planet idea. A Giant derived calender would make sense for the humans, but perhaps the calenders of the other species ought to be a little different. Or we could just go for simplicity and say everybody adopted the superior Giant Calender.

About the moon(s), I think a regular one moon would be enough. Perhaps scooch it closer, so as to have a stronger pull on the tides.

[Innis Cabal]

I like what Ghals has. Closer moon would be really cool

[combatmedic]

Sure, I support the round planet idea. A Giant derived calender would make sense for the humans, but perhaps the calenders of the other species ought to be a little different. Or we could just go for simplicity and say everybody adopted the superior Giant Calender.

About the moon(s), I think a regular one moon would be enough. Perhaps scooch it closer, so as to have a stronger pull on the tides.

Sure, that's cool.

What about a moon that has it's own breathable atmosphere, and is close enough to the planet to share some of it? Stuff lives on it- animals, fey, giant bugs, whatever.

Edit: If you guys think the living moon is a bit much, I'll save it for the next setting I work up.

[Innis Cabal]

Sure, maybe make it just a little more earth like? By that I mean, the Giants never went there so what ever does live there made things medium sized?

[combatmedic]

Sure, maybe make it just a little more earth like? By that I mean, the Giants never went there so what ever does live there made things medium sized?

Hmmmm. What about using normal sized, or maybe even smaller animals and plants? Minimals? You could have fey creatures as well. Lunar marauders!

[Innis Cabal]

If so, we have to use Grix

[combatmedic]

If so, we have to use Grix

Gricks or grix? Enlighten me, please.

Grigs? The little bug leg boys that hang out with atomies?

[Innis Cabal]

THe Grigs, yes...sorry its late

[combatmedic]

THe Grigs, yes...sorry its late

Naw, I gothca. Yeah, I like them , too.

[combatmedic]

I think slyphs, too.

[Innis Cabal]

Fey races would be cool. Have it no operate on the Earth Flow at all. All earth magic stops working

[Ghal Marak]

So the Moon is actualy a smaller world, inhabited by the Fae. Hmm... yeah, it has potential. But we have to keep it dark. We can even tie it into the "Nights of Horror", as Darkkwalker put it, and say that the Fae's power grows on these nights, as the moon shines down in a pallid sheen. Because the earth's power is weaker, and the moons power is greater during these nights, the Fae can travel down to the surface of the earth to abduct slaves. But they are still bound by certain rules, and areas where the earth flow wells up are impenetrable to the Fae.

[Innis Cabal]

Perhaps the moon is the source of the "blood/arcane" magic?

[Ghal Marak]

Perhaps the moon is the source of the "blood/arcane" magic?

Good idea. The Arcane magic could be innately alien in nature to the world. Perhaps it has a side efect of preventing it's users from entering the flow after death? Maybe their souls are instead pulled up to the moon.

[Innis Cabal]

I like that idea, I get a vision of Prinnies, but....thats just me

[Bago!!!]

Let me just start off saying, you guys have done kick ass work!

There are some things I would really like to see in the campeign and others things that still need to be tweaked. So how I try and help is ask questions.

For example, you said this world doesn't produce magic items very often, that most are just remnants of the giant empire, correct? But why would the giants make meduim sized swords or parchment that are just tiny scraps of paper?

How are demons and devils being done again? Cause there is one class I would love to see in this campeign, the warlock! Don't give me that look.... I don't know how they could fit in the world.
Maybe they don't draw their power from the infernal. Perhaps they draw their power from the forces of the fey, or maybe the elements, or perhaps it draws power from the shadow itself? Could it simply be a sort of leyline magic? A anarchic for of magic that twists the light and dark into something entirely different? Perhaps this could be blood magic? If not, sorcerers may fit in.

How are we doing months, weeks, and days? Holidays? Star constellations? Ages? Could this be the second age, the first age being the giant age or were there other civilizations or other ages?

We got the pantheon gods but what about demi gods?
And are the gods and forces accepted by all races as the one and only religion?


How come we aren't using wizards? Actuelly, how are we doing arcane magic as a whole? What makes arcane so... eldritch? Perhaps you should make wizards different than just the book worms. Perhaps they draw their magic instead of just knowledge from the true language written on parchment and written in their minds. But the power of this magic taxes them mentally, causing many of them to go insane and eventually fry their brains out.


Now, how do the others gods interact with the world and their followers? What if someone of the shining light used one of their miracles in a corrupted way, or maybe they healed someone of the hungry dark? Would the god do nothing, strip the fool of their power, or smite both the sinner and the miracle worker?


I think the way guns are done may need a little more work if I am hearing this right. No way is a gun worth 1000 gold and be worth using.


How does currency work to begin with? Standard copper, silver, gold, platnuim or are we gonna get creative like dark sun, with ceramic coins that broke into smaller bits of change?


As for the sleeping evil, its been done so many times. Perhaps the evil is trapped (again already done), perhaps the light thinks its a sleep but in truth, it is awake, stalking the light. A step infront and a step behind, waiting for the time where the light will dim down and falter... Perhaps the


I think it would be easier to stick with a round earth.


How do sorcerers draw upon magic? Is it in their viens? Could sorcerers be blood magic users? It couldn't be so far fetched if done correctly. Perhaps sorcerers are tremendously powerful, but every spell they cast hurts them physically and requires blood, but not just any blood. Blood touched by magic. Basically, you would need a creature of magic or another sorcerer. Maybe even many many creatures.

Blood magic, how could blood magic come about to begin with? Perhaps some mortals have the blood of giants running through their viens, perhaps magic just 'attaches' itself to them before birth. Perhaps all creatures of magic, but only a few have enough to command it.


Very important question. How are we gonna do lycanthropy, vampirism, and undeath in general. Is lycantrhopy and vampirism going to be just a disease? OR, will they be afflictions set by the Hungering shadow, spawn set upon the mortal world to consume them and spread the hunger the shadow feels.


Living moon.... I like it! Would there be one side that always faces the world though? A light side and a dark side? Perhaps it is here that magical creatures come from?


Could we possibly incorporate Leylines?



Thats all i can come up with right now. Tired....



Totally random thought that I had to say before I retire!

I said sorcerers or warlocks could use blood magic, yes? But what if, bear with me, warlocks were the ones who had blood magic, magic that is inherently in their body physically. Sorcerers, their magic on the other hand, is their inherent power of their very soul. They could accomplish things that most could not fathom, while the warlock can only copy some of the power, a mere shadow in comparison.

[Innis Cabal]

Wow....long post......ok........ill tackle some of this

No demi-gods. Worship the Earth Flow(Which are like Ley Lines) or the gods, or ideals

Demons/outsiders are....hazy atm

No wizards or clerics what so ever, was agreed early on. Sorcerer(which use elemental and blood magic) or favored souls. Sorcerers use the energy from the moon as discussed above

The gods as of yet are ill defined, and still up in the air, we will get to them in time im sure

No word on guns really, left for later

As for the very important question. Why bother with them? They to, are over done imho. Lets leave those all out.

[Ghal Marak]

GAH! Wall of text! (:smalltongue:)


Let me just start off saying, you guys have done kick ass work!

Thank you. :smallbiggrin: Though the others deserve that more than me, I haven't done all that much.


There are some things I would really like to see in the campeign and others things that still need to be tweaked. So how I try and help is ask questions.

Sure, works for me.


For example, you said this world doesn't produce magic items very often, that most are just remnants of the giant empire, correct? But why would the giants make meduim sized swords or parchment that are just tiny scraps of paper?

Well, I did mention the Giant Wand thing, and AP was kind enough to see to it. Then it kinda got forgoten. :smallredface: Thanks for bringing it back up.


How are demons and devils being done again? Cause there is one class I would love to see in this campeign, the warlock! Don't give me that look.... I don't know how they could fit in the world.
Maybe they don't draw their power from the infernal. Perhaps they draw their power from the forces of the fey, or maybe the elements, or perhaps it draws power from the shadow itself? Could it simply be a sort of leyline magic? A anarchic for of magic that twists the light and dark into something entirely different? Perhaps this could be blood magic? If not, sorcerers may fit in.

Hmm... the Warlock. Awesome class, but the way this is set up? Not much devil interaction as far as I can tell, so your right with the Fae (or Fey, whatever). A better way would be to set it up like this: Babies born at night during the 'Nights of Horror' have a chance of being born as a Warlock. Usualy, the Fae would then decend upon the location and abduct the baby. But if properly defended, the baby will remain and be all wierd powers and stuff. And on Sorcerers, I don't even remember if we allowed them or not.


How are we doing months, weeks, and days? Holidays? Star constellations? Ages? Could this be the second age, the first age being the giant age or were there other civilizations or other ages?

Eh, we kinda hit on that, but then we moved on. I'm sure we will cover it more in depth eventualy.


We got the pantheon gods but what about demi gods?
And are the gods and forces accepted by all races as the one and only religion?

Hmm... perhaps Demi-Gods are not the sons and daughters of gods, but actualy the chosen ones of them. Or, maybe Demi-Gods are up and coming gods, or perhaps they are just gods that never got around to doing more than have fun in the material world. *shrug* I'm kinda out of my depth concering pathions.


How come we aren't using wizards? Actuelly, how are we doing arcane magic as a whole? What makes arcane so... eldritch? Perhaps you should make wizards different than just the book worms. Perhaps they draw their magic instead of just knowledge from the true language written on parchment and written in their minds. But the power of this magic taxes them mentally, causing many of them to go insane and eventually fry their brains out.

I think we dissalowed wizards (among the other pure casty stuff) because it was too main stream. None of the other classes ever get much limelight, so now they get a campaign setting to themselves. Or at least that's how I look at it. I don't know about bringing them back though, as I didn't realy help in that decision.



Now, how do the others gods interact with the world and their followers? What if someone of the shining light used one of their miracles in a corrupted way, or maybe they healed someone of the hungry dark? Would the god do nothing, strip the fool of their power, or smite both the sinner and the miracle worker?

Hmm... good question. I'im not sure how that would work. Perhaps it's a slap on the wrist. Or eternal damnation. *shrug* I'll let somebody else decide.


I think the way guns are done may need a little more work if I am hearing this right. No way is a gun worth 1000 gold and be worth using.

Oh yeah, it needs some work. I haven't actualy sat down and looked at the rules yet though. I think I'll do that sooner or later and try and come up with a compromise.


How does currency work to begin with? Standard copper, silver, gold, platnuim or are we gonna get creative like dark sun, with ceramic coins that broke into smaller bits of change?

We haven't even started talking about currency. Way to be ahead of the curve. :smallwink:

Hmm... you know, I'm not too sure on currency.


As for the sleeping evil, its been done so many times. Perhaps the evil is trapped (again already done), perhaps the light thinks its a sleep but in truth, it is awake, stalking the light. A step infront and a step behind, waiting for the time where the light will dim down and falter... Perhaps the

You didn't finish that last sentence. :smalltongue:

Yeah, we all know it's been done, even the different aspect AP provided feels a little done. Your idea is pretty good, and I happen to like my Dwarven Giant Hunters idea. We will just have to figure out what we want from that later.



I think it would be easier to stick with a round earth.

Okay. Fair enough.


How do sorcerers draw upon magic? Is it in their viens? Could sorcerers be blood magic users? It couldn't be so far fetched if done correctly. Perhaps sorcerers are tremendously powerful, but every spell they cast hurts them physically and requires blood, but not just any blood. Blood touched by magic. Basically, you would need a creature of magic or another sorcerer. Maybe even many many creatures.

Did we allow sorcerers? I was under the impresion that we didn't. Hmm... perhaps I need to read a bit more carefully.


Blood magic, how could blood magic come about to begin with? Perhaps some mortals have the blood of giants running through their viens, perhaps magic just 'attaches' itself to them before birth. Perhaps all creatures of magic, but only a few have enough to command it.

I like to think of is as Fey in origin. The Moon's 'unamed energy' seeping into the Earth Flow. But, that's just my idea.


Very important question. How are we gonna do lycanthropy, vampirism, and undeath in general. Is lycantrhopy and vampirism going to be just a disease? OR, will they be afflictions set by the Hungering shadow, spawn set upon the mortal world to consume them and spread the hunger the shadow feels.

Perhaps... could again be affiliated to the fey. Or, as you said, afflictions of the Hungering Shadow. Or perhaps they were cooked up by a particularly nasty... something. I dunno. We have a lot of options for their direction.



Living moon.... I like it! Would there be one side that always faces the world though? A light side and a dark side? Perhaps it is here that magical creatures come from?

I was thinking that the fey came from here. But the never turning idea... hmm... it has some merit. Possibly.


Could we possibly incorporate Leylines?[quote]

Totaly possible. As I mentioned in a previous post, 'places where the Earth Flow wells up'. Maybe that could be considered ley-spots more than 'lines', but it wouldn't take much to tweak it like that.


[QUOTE=Bago!!!;4897179]Thats all i can come up with right now. Tired....

Cool. Thanks for asking those questions. Some of them needed to be asked, and I was too dumb to think of 'em. :smallwink:

EDIT: Augh, Ninja! :smallyuk:

[Bago!!!]

Gods, demons and such are still not defined yet, I'll hold off for a little bit on that then.

Gunfire, on hold then?

So no clerics or wizards. Okay, so what will be done to pull up the lack of versatility since both are spontaneous and are by design stuck with what they select. If you want to give some of the other classes light, maybe you shouldn't outright eliminate the full classes but change the flavor, what they have access to, and perhaps add some abilities that make them more on par with the other classes. They managed to do that for the Wizard Class in dark sun. They made there be two types and made the entire world want to kill everyone of them. Being one was tough and resulted in near death, even at the hands of your own party members (personal experiance :smallwink:).

As is the duality of light and darkness, age of giants ruling over the world, dwarves with any sort of gun powder, etc. Most of those have been used for a long time in many scenarios and settings. Vampires, werewolves, army of undead, all of these are classics. Done time and time again, but can be done so differently. I have a DM who is crazy of the undead. And everytime we play, I and the rest of my group know that we are gonna fight another undead somewhere in his game. But nothing prepares us for the actual fight, if there is one. Undead minions seem like perfect minions for the Hungering dark, vampires are just the best villians! Lycanthropes are fun to toss in with a intricate plot. And all fit the hungering dark at night theme, correct?

The moon's energy seeping into the earth flow, which then seeps into the souls and life force of certain people.

MY GOSH I LIKE THAT WARLOCK IDEA!!!!

If you need to read more carefully, that makes two of us. Most of this stuff I missed completely!


Perhaps these ley spots are actually multiple ley lines that intersect each other?

Make the demi gods into avatars? That could work.

Glad I could make some of the things missed out on alive again.



PS, turns out I had enough time to post this. GN

[Ghal Marak]

Gods, demons and such are still not defined yet, I'll hold off for a little bit on that then.

Gunfire, on hold then?

So no clerics or wizards. Okay, so what will be done to pull up the lack of versatility since both are spontaneous and are by design stuck with what they select.

As is the duality of light and darkness, age of giants ruling over the world, dwarves with any sort of gun powder, etc. Most of those have been used for a long time in many scenarios and settings. Vampires, werewolves, army of undead, all of these are classics. Done time and time again, but can be done so differently. I have a DM who is crazy of the undead. And everytime we play, I and the rest of my group know that we are gonna fight another undead somewhere in his game. But nothing prepares us for the actual fight, if there is one. Undead minions seem like perfect minions for the Hungering dark, vampires are just the best villians! Lycanthropes are fun to toss in with a intricate plot. And all fit the hungering dark at night theme, correct?

I assume you mean Favored Souls and Sorcerors (which I now know are included :smallredface:) when you say they are spontanious. Clerics and Wizards aren't spontanious casters. And I've actualy given no thought to that. I guess they will just have to devote some slots to get the bases coverd. Or, maybe for the Favored Soul we could add something like the Domains to it. One Extra spell known per spell level devoted only to healing spells. It would ballence in the end, becuase they still have to use a spell slot to cast it. Now... Sorcerors... they actualy have a lot of things they could do. They shouldn't have a problem.

[combatmedic]

My thoughts.....


Gods:
One pantheon for the whole world. This doesn't mean the names, faces, etc of the gods are constant from one culture/race to the next. It's the essence of the gods that is universal, not the particulars of how mortals see them.

Magic items:

The giants didn't make medium sized items, as a general rule. As you say, why would they? Giant-made items tend to be really big. Their potion bottles are great finds!

Man sized items are not quite as common as in some settings. That is intentional. There are no magic-mart chainstores. To offset the relative scarcity of items, I think we should use fewer critters with DR/magic and also include legacy items [so that a PC hero might have just one magic sword his whole career- it grows with the hero as his legend grows].

Wizards- Nope. We left them out on purpose.

Money:

Let's go with different currencies in different places. Some places may use trade goods a lot- furs, tobacco leaves, salt, hacksilver. It doesn't have to all be generic coins.

What did the giants use as money? Hmmmm, maybe not coins of precious metals. Perhaps the used carved stone counters/small statues?


I like that sorcerers and FS are ''stuck with what they get.'' I don't want super-versatile wizards and clerics. Most magic users in this setting are a bit more specialized than that. Magic isn't something you learn in a school, generally speaking; it's a special talent, a gift from the gods, the result of a pact with nonhuman entities, etc.


I don't think FS need any more cheese!

The giant empire is the central element of the of the setting. It makes the setting what it is. Other settings may have had an Age of Giants, but none published that I've ever seen makes giants half as important to the world as ours. In settings like FR , it's ancient fluff, with little effect on the modern world. Not so in this setting. Heck, the giants' roads are bigger in scale than the US highway system!

Note on black powder- Most settings that include it seem to have a silly leap from invention of the explosive to the appearance of the matchlock [or even more advanced guns] that happens almost overnight. Not so in this setting, where the 'guns' are still medieval style handgonnes. They don't cost 1000 gold, either. They also aren't uber weapons.

[Bago!!!]

Creation feats are still going to be allowed right?

Gods being same pantheon but different names but still same essence sounds neat.

Wait, so magic is a gift from the gods? Even arcane magic? But I thought arcane was seperate from the gods, that it came from the moon and such.


Casters stuck the way they are not only make it terribly boring for the caster (Unless you like constant repition) but can hurt the group in the long run sometimes. And if there are no full casters in this, later foes become nearly impossible to take down because of the lack of magic items except the few ones that a sorcerer or favored soul could make.
I'am not saying we should bring in wizards, what I am saying is make it so that their absence doesn't leave a huge gapping hole in the party. Serouisly, I never met a caster who wanted to be versatile go for sorcerer. Sorcerers must have a certain role, and NEVER go away from it. If they do, they endanger themselves and the entire group, but the repidition of blowing things up can get boring rather quickly. So can healing.
The problem with being a spontaneous spell caster is, when devote a few slots, you devote practically all of them.
Not something you learn at school? What about true namers? How do they learn their words of power? From instinct or from searching through the ruins?

Or some countries could have no money at all. They merely trade as a basis of need.

[Another_Poet]

The gun price is fine. In fact, it's necessary.

Since a gun does multiple dice of damage, it's far more powerful than other weapons. Its reload time is its failing; you can only do that damage once, then drop the gun and draw your sword.

If guns are cheap, players just buy twenty guns so they can shoot, drop, draw, shoot, drop, draw, etc. That's fine at high levels, and having two or three guns at low levels is fine (and exactly what was done historically). But if a low-level character can afford many guns, guns are broken.

At 1,000 gp per gun, the typical 1st level character doesn't have any, a 2nd or third level character can have one, a mid-level character can have several and only serious badasses can keep a big collection. Perfect.

Remember, in D&D price is determined by power, not economy. The gold piece is the unit of game balance.

[Lappy9000]

You guys are nuts. You realize you've posted a 15-page thread in 12 days, right?

Keep up the good work!

EDIT: Well, shucks. Make that 16 pages :smalltongue:

[Zeta Kai]

It needs some serious organization, though. The OP should organize the agreed-upon aspects of the project & put them into Post#1, lest the project collapse under its own weight.

[Innis Cabal]

There will be no versitile casters. This is a low magic setting. Want to be a bat man? Pick another class. It only leaves a gaping hole in a party that thinks they need that aspect. I for one have never played a wizard in 3.5...ever. Sorcerer may be the weaker pick but thats never mattered to me. No clerics, no wizards. Domains are eh, as the god set up is....hardly lending itself to domains to begin with

And yes, some organization would be awsome.

[Darkkwalker]

No druids either right? Doesn't seem to fit the nature theme going on. though I do think you guys have pulled it off well enough so that the druid isn't needed.

[Ghal Marak]

No druids either right? Doesn't seem to fit the nature theme going on. though I do think you guys have pulled it off well enough so that the druid isn't needed.

I think they were replaced with Shamen and something else.

[Innis Cabal]

Ya, we replaced it with Shamen from OA, which get domains incidently

[combatmedic]

The gun price is fine. In fact, it's necessary.

Since a gun does multiple dice of damage, it's far more powerful than other weapons. Its reload time is its failing; you can only do that damage once, then drop the gun and draw your sword.

If guns are cheap, players just buy twenty guns so they can shoot, drop, draw, shoot, drop, draw, etc. That's fine at high levels, and having two or three guns at low levels is fine (and exactly what was done historically). But if a low-level character can afford many guns, guns are broken.

At 1,000 gp per gun, the typical 1st level character doesn't have any, a 2nd or third level character can have one, a mid-level character can have several and only serious badasses can keep a big collection. Perfect.

Remember, in D&D price is determined by power, not economy. The gold piece is the unit of game balance.


Twenty handgonnes!!! No, they're pretty heavy. It's man-portable, but still pretty big. I'm not talking about pistols. I'd rate the medieval handgonne as a Simple weapon, with poor accuracy, good damage, and a shorter effective range than most bows. Poorly made models may burst, endangering the gunner.


Like this:
http://www.handgonne.com/



and
http://www.handgonne.com/album.html

His beard reminds me of dwarves!

Don't forget to check out his video links. He fires the handgonnes.

[combatmedic]

It needs some serious organization, though. The OP should organize the agreed-upon aspects of the project & put them into Post#1, lest the project collapse under its own weight.

Yes, you are right.

I'm going to do some shuffling...get a list of agreed upon races, gods, cosmology, classes, etc put together and paste it into the first post.

[Innis Cabal]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Yuan_chinese_gun.jpg

thats what I see, alot nicer looking though

[combatmedic]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Yuan_chinese_gun.jpg

thats what I see, alot nicer looking though

Quite similar, really. I wonder if it had a wooden stock, originally?

[Innis Cabal]

I don't recall honestly

[combatmedic]

I don't recall honestly

No matter.

Ah, I'm editing and reposting stuff to the first page. Will add spoilers, so the post isn't ridiculously long. Trying to organize this stuff. i think my class list is pretty much what we've all agreed on. Room for additional classes, if we decide to add them, of course.

[Bago!!!]

If you want to make it low magic setting then I see no reason why not. But that doesn't mean certain classes need to be withdrawn entirely. I've played the sorcerer and wizard both. Sorcerer, I grew tired of lobbing lightening bolts. Wizards, I could change my spell lists to fit the given situation. This never put me ahead of the group, rather made me the situational member. If I wanted batman I would play a rogue, but no, someone will want to play a versatile character more often than not, and when there is no versatile caster the chances of someone playing the caster roll diminishes. I for one enjoy playing the versatile caster over the blasty sorcerer or buffing sorcerer. Don't like the versatile casters? Want the other classes to played more or given more light? Then perhaps take some of the spells the casters of access to. Get rid of the wizards specialization or give them penalties if they don't use a spells that they prepared or they have to spend double the amount for materials for magic ink or wizards are viewed as witches and heathens that forcibly manipulate the magic flow that could be incredibly dangerous to the entire world. There are other ways than just elminating magical classes.

Settings have made magical classes weaker in many ways, from making one lose hit points from creating magical items permanently to being violently hunted and hated by all.

And if this a lower magic setting, then why do the spontaneous casters not get diminished at all? They are as powerful as a sorcerer from another world. If its a low magic setting then ALL magic must suffer.


A thousand gold for a single gun is over the top and would make no sense. 500 gold would make sense and thats pushing it. The reloading time and accuracy are the problems with it, along with the constant supply of bullets and powder, and you can't salvage powder or bullets too often without the necessary resources which aren't always available. I say 100 or so gold for a hand gun. Ammunition would probally be 1 gold per a bullet or so with powder costing 5 gold per a cartridge. Plus, the hand guns are dangerous all by itself.
For both the owner and the foe.

[Innis Cabal]

Wizards and clerics just dont fit into the world as it stands. Not alot of things to really study. Archivist might be able to be added but that would be the most extreme.

Warlocks haven't brought up, im not against it but they should be fully fey blooded.

We have talked about the outsiders, they serve the gods, and thats pretty much it

I agree fully with the others comments on the guns

[combatmedic]

Wizards and clerics just dont fit into the world as it stands. Not alot of things to really study. Archivist might be able to be added but that would be the most extreme.

Warlocks haven't brought up, im not against it but they should be fully fey blooded.

We have talked about the outsiders, they serve the gods, and thats pretty much it

I agree fully with the others comments on the guns


Yep, consider all this seconded.

This is a lower magic world in the sense that magic is less common, not necessarily weaker. Most magic comes either from superhuman entities [gods, vestiges, elemental forces] or from innate magical traits [in the blood]. Only truename magic fits the ''learned through formal schooling'' model- and it's one of the rarer forms of magic.

From a stylistic perspective, eliminating several of the core classes makes room for the newer classes. We haven't just eliminated wizards and clerics. There are no druids and no paladins. This isn't a ''standard'' D&D setting, so we saw no reason to include all the usual elements. To be sure, there are plenty of familiar tropes, but many things are rather different. No elves! No elves! No elves! Ahhhhh, that felt good. :smallsmile:

[Bago!!!]

In realistic perspective, elminating several of the core classes leads to incredible problems. Not only that, if magic is not as common as you say then your going to need to come up with entirely new monsters with completely different CRs or need to come up with why there will be magic items for the main heros, cause magic items are essentially part of the CR system.

If there is not alot to study, then how is truenaming done? If there is nothing to study, then that archievest class is really not available. If only the truenaming class fits, then how would they even learn things if theres supposedly not much to study?


Warlocks, would be sort of a combination of fey magic and the dark magic with flavors of elemental. Maybe some diabolic or demonic when we understand what we are doing.

Elves? I really don't mind elves not being in this campeign, even though they are one of my favorite races to play.

[Another_Poet]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Yuan_chinese_gun.jpg

thats what I see, alot nicer looking though


Seconded.

And yes, it would've had a wooden pole stuck in one end. Not really a stock, more of just a handle.

This is what I had in mind too, and YES in D&D you can run around with 20 of them. Modified Quiver of Ehlonna + Quick Draw Feat + high STR = endless guns.

[Innis Cabal]

In realistic perspective, elminating several of the core classes leads to incredible problems. Not only that, if magic is not as common as you say then your going to need to come up with entirely new monsters with completely different CRs or need to come up with why there will be magic items for the main heros, cause magic items are essentially part of the CR system.

If there is not alot to study, then how is truenaming done? If there is nothing to study, then that archievest class is really not available. If only the truenaming class fits, then how would they even learn things if theres supposedly not much to study?


Warlocks, would be sort of a combination of fey magic and the dark magic with flavors of elemental. Maybe some diabolic or demonic when we understand what we are doing.

Elves? I really don't mind elves not being in this campeign, even though they are one of my favorite races to play.


Races were already set i think

As for the rest, thats utter nonsense. I've played games with out a single core class and been better then if we'd had them.

Sonic has a place in the elemental set up here, thats where true naming comes in.

As for monsters/CR and magic items, also complete hogwash. Besides, those are all so far from where we are at the moment they are close to non issues

[combatmedic]

Seconded.

And yes, it would've had a wooden pole stuck in one end. Not really a stock, more of just a handle.

This is what I had in mind too, and YES in D&D you can run around with 20 of them. Modified Quiver of Ehlonna + Quick Draw Feat + high STR = endless guns.



Ah, but you'll have to make that modified quiver, yourself. No magic shops to churn out this kind of stuff. I don't think BP weapons have been around long enough, in this setting, to justify scads of special magical bags o' guns.


Using some sort of whacky item to carry around multiple handgonnes isn't going to mess things up worse than anymore than carrying around dozens of loaded hvy crossbows[ which are more reliable, more accurate, and much quieter]. Let's hope nothing flammable gets into his giant magic gun-sack!

Remember, these are primitive firearms- they aren't THAT good. It took a long time for guns to displace bows and crossbows in the real world, and there are reasons for that. No rifling, possibly uneven quality of powder, no triggers or firing mechanisms, no sights. It's just a metal tube on a stick, with a touchhole drilled in the side. Sometimes it blows up, fails to fire, etc. Guns aren't likely to displace other weapons until the matchlock phase, and even the, bows hang around in many places [English, Turks, etc used bows well into the BP era].

Edit- Would you allow an item that created endless pre-loaded hvy crossbows? Endless Molotov cocktails? I probably wouldn't, because it's kinda silly. So no magic sack o' guns, either.

[Innis Cabal]

As primitave as they were. Think of the terror they would have caused

All of a sudden, a line of men fall into position, your expecting arrows or bolts, and all of a sudden, the air smells rank, thick plumes of smoke billow forward and the very air seems to snap with sound as the powder combusts, everyone around you falling, bleeding and screaming from a weapon you've -never- seen before.

It would be dang near mythological

[combatmedic]

As primitave as they were. Think of the terror they would have caused

All of a sudden, a line of men fall into position, your expecting arrows or bolts, and all of a sudden, the air smells rank, thick plumes of smoke billow forward and the very air seems to snap with sound as the powder combusts, everyone around you falling, bleeding and screaming from a weapon you've -never- seen before.

It would be dang near mythological


Oh yeah- and that's part of the appeal. That, and any peasant can be trained adequately in their use in a couple of weeks. They aren't complex.

[Innis Cabal]

Point and click(well at that point they werent) application in all things makes life easier

[combatmedic]

Point and click(well at that point they werent) application in all things makes life easier

Hahaha, yeah. How about : gingerly touch heated wire to touch-hole, while pointing boomstick in general direction of foes.

[Innis Cabal]

Thats still alot better then some of the other weapons that were around at the time though, and as you said, anyone can do that. Made it a very powerful weapon, albiet unreliable and dangerous and expensive

[combatmedic]

Thats still alot better then some of the other weapons that were around at the time though, and as you said, anyone can do that. Made it a very powerful weapon, albiet unreliable and dangerous and expensive

Yeah. I think in our setting, the dwarves will make enough that they aren't super expensive- in dwarf settlements, when being purchased by fellow dwarves. Probably more expensive elsewhere, maybe a lot more expensive.

It's powder that really matters, though. Who knows how to make powder? It's hard to keep it a secret for long, because it's not really complex. Ah, but if only the dwarves have an actual industry to make the stuff....then we needn't worry.

[Lyndworm]

I still have nothing useful to say. I just thought I'd stop in and let you guys know that I've been following the thread and continue to support this project. I love all of the ideas so far, and if I have anything to say I'll let you know. Until then, you probably won't hear from me, but I'll be here. :smalltongue:

Zack

[Zeta Kai]

I still have nothing useful to say. I just thought I'd stop in and let you guys know that I've been following the thread and continue to support this project. I love all of the ideas so far, and if I have anything to say I'll let you know. Until then, you probably won't hear from me, but I'll be here. :smalltongue:

Zack

QFT, & Seconded.

[Another_Poet]

Remember, these are primitive firearms- they aren't THAT good. It took a long time for guns to displace bows and crossbows in the real world, and there are reasons for that. No rifling, possibly uneven quality of powder, no triggers or firing mechanisms, no sights. It's just a metal tube on a stick, with a touchhole drilled in the side. Sometimes it blows up, fails to fire, etc. Guns aren't likely to displace other weapons until the matchlock phase, and even the, bows hang around in many places [English, Turks, etc used bows well into the BP era].

Exactly. The Privateer Press rules cover all that. The low range increment covers the low accuracy. The Profession (Gunsmith) check to reload covers the difficulty with jamming, uneven powder, etc. The price of ammo covers the rarity of powder. The slow reload time covers the fact that it's a single-shot tube on a stick, not a real gun.

But, to make it a reasonable choice despite all those flaws, the weapon deals multiple dice of damage. Which is sweet! But it means there has to be a price adjust.

Obviously, you can tinker it below 1000 gp, especially if you do intend to limit magical items that aid gunmen. But rest assured, if guns cost only 100 or 200 gp, players will find a way to carry and use a bunch of them at low levels.

I mean, if quiver of Ehlonna is out, I can just hire a squire for a few silver a day to carry my six extra guns (besides the three I have on me). Keep him adjacent and handing an item to me is a free action. I can afford to do this by 2nd or maybe 3rd level, with 200 gp guns. I can fire one or more guns every round for the whole battle, every battle, dealing twice as much damage as the archer or crossbowman next to me.

May not be the worst thing but it has to be balanced somehow. Privateer Press used those gun rules for its Iron Kingdoms setting and it worked really well and has been a popular setting for years, maybe the most popular non-WotC 3.5 setting.

Again, you can tweak the price however you want. I'd keep it reasonably high, though.

ap

[Ghal Marak]

I've been pondering the impact the various things mentioned earlier would have on Mushroom Folk, and heres what I came up with.


Guns: Mushroom Folk would either have no use for such contraptions, or would embrace them alongside the Dwarves. Them being in an aliance after all, it would make sence for the Mushroom Folk to learn a thing or two from the Dwarves, and vice virsa.

Currency: I honestly can't see the Mushroom Folk using a currency amongst themselves. As a race evolved from fungi, they would have a use for everything, and use what other races deem as 'valuables' to simply barter for what they think is more important. Being good at scavenging, there wouldn't be a lot of need to trade for the more important things. But for things worked from metal, they'd trade whatever they have (i.e.- poisons, bits of scrap metal, any gold and gems they happen to come across) to the Dwarves in exchange for weapons and armor and the like.

Eh, I'll add more later when I get a chance. *grumbles about work*

[combatmedic]

Exactly. The Privateer Press rules cover all that. The low range increment covers the low accuracy. The Profession (Gunsmith) check to reload covers the difficulty with jamming, uneven powder, etc. The price of ammo covers the rarity of powder. The slow reload time covers the fact that it's a single-shot tube on a stick, not a real gun.

But, to make it a reasonable choice despite all those flaws, the weapon deals multiple dice of damage. Which is sweet! But it means there has to be a price adjust.

Obviously, you can tinker it below 1000 gp, especially if you do intend to limit magical items that aid gunmen. But rest assured, if guns cost only 100 or 200 gp, players will find a way to carry and use a bunch of them at low levels.

I mean, if quiver of Ehlonna is out, I can just hire a squire for a few silver a day to carry my six extra guns (besides the three I have on me). Keep him adjacent and handing an item to me is a free action. I can afford to do this by 2nd or maybe 3rd level, with 200 gp guns. I can fire one or more guns every round for the whole battle, every battle, dealing twice as much damage as the archer or crossbowman next to me.

May not be the worst thing but it has to be balanced somehow. Privateer Press used those gun rules for its Iron Kingdoms setting and it worked really well and has been a popular setting for years, maybe the most popular non-WotC 3.5 setting.

Again, you can tweak the price however you want. I'd keep it reasonably high, though.

ap


I have yet to be convinced to use those rules, though. I disagree with making guns so potent [1d10 damage is my recommendation- certainly not 2d8 damage!]. Gunsmith skill just to load? I don't get that. Guns should be a Simple weapon, not Exotic. That's the whole point: it takes much less time to train a gunner than an archer. Guns aren't so much better- as they are cheaper in the long run.


Guns at the level of tech we are describing should have doubled 'to hit' penalties at each increase in range increment. They are best at point blank and close range, and get crappy very rapidly after that. These are smoothbores without proper stocks and sights.



Edit- Let's not get hung up on this, though. You might dial down guns in your campaign, and another DM might be more liberal with them. No need to get hung up on iffy details like this, at the expense of further world development.

What do you say?

Oh, and money. I've never cared for how ridiculously cheap gold is in D&D. Why not take this opportunity to shift values for the setting? A silver standard, perhaps?

[Innis Cabal]

Why even use silver? Why not...rocks with holes or carved bark notes?

[combatmedic]

Why even use silver? Why not...rocks with holes or carved bark notes?

Good point.

What about pelts? Tobacco leaves? Cowrie shells? All these things were used as units of exchange in the real world, at various times and places.

[Bago!!!]

Races were already set i think

As for the rest, thats utter nonsense. I've played games with out a single core class and been better then if we'd had them.

Sonic has a place in the elemental set up here, thats where true naming comes in.

As for monsters/CR and magic items, also complete hogwash. Besides, those are all so far from where we are at the moment they are close to non issuesq

I already figured that. Not saying we should put elves in.

What classes? And maybe that didn't affect you too much cause there were other basic classes in the world? Did you buy scrolls? Did you buy magic items? Did you hire cohorts? Its one thing to say that you had an entire group without any core class. Its a completely different thing to say that went through the entire game without even interacting with ANY of the core classes.

That doesn't make any sense. How do you know to say the name? Thats what truenaming is about, isn't? Saying the right word? It requires a skill right? How do you expand your 'vocabulary'?

Hogwash? Hardly. We are using some of the monsters from the MM and are increasing the difficulty of some of them.


I think that guns should have more die damage, but I think that they should be incredibly expensive to maintain, repair, and use in general. Course, hiring cohorts probally won't be the same as it will in the PHB. Only a silver? Why bother doing that if your going to be risking your life and limb upfront and close to the enemy? Besides, at low levels your not gonna really afford the guns, and at high levels there should be better things than those guns.



And how about we actuelly make a plan so we can actuelly stop jumping from one thing to another?

[Innis Cabal]

Those arnt concerns in a normal game. Favored Soul still gets cleric spells, and thus can make cleric items

But thats not the point, its a low magic setting, that might be why, or one reason, and CR and all that isnt even important to world building, only play.

[Innis Cabal]

Good point.

What about pelts? Tobacco leaves? Cowrie shells? All these things were used as units of exchange in the real world, at various times and places.

Missed this

Those were just examples, currency shouldnt be on any sort of standard, heck certain cultures might not take other peoples "money"

[combatmedic]

Agreed about the money. Without worring about hard details, we can state that monetary systems , such as they are, vary widely. Barter is probably common in many places.


Organization? What about something like so:


Cosmology [the Three Primal Forces and the planes]

Gods [the universal pantheon]

Magic [the five types of magic]


Giants [ the Old Builders, the diminshed giants, history, ruins, artifacts,etc]

Common Kindreds [the PC races]

Monsters! [ogres, linnorms, beasts of various kinds,etc]

Maps!

Nations/city-states/territories/etc [ short encyclopedia style entries on the various polities, tribes, etc]

[combatmedic]

That doesn't make any sense. How do you know to say the name? Thats what truenaming is about, isn't? Saying the right word? It requires a skill right? How do you expand your 'vocabulary'?


Here's my take on magic:

Truename magic is learned through study and practice. You expand your vocabulary in a manner not unlike learning any other obscure dead language- except that Truspeech is especially difficult to learn and use. Truespeech is taught by only a select set of scholars, and most people will never even hear so much as three words of it in their lives.

Pactbinding is ritual magic. It's not just a matter of waving bits of paper around and chanting the right words, or chalking a circle and beheading a chicken. It's more like Voodoo, a spiritual practice that uses ritual to connect with supernatural entities [the Loa in Voodoo, the Vestiges in Binding]. A certain spiritual sensitity is a prerequisite for the practice of binding. Many people lack this quality.

Arcane magic is something you are born with, and learn to master over time, through trial and error. It cannot simply be taught to a bright pupil, as you'd teach someone to read.

Divine magic comes only through the favor of the gods or elemental spirits. The gods or spirits chose the recipients of this power, not the other way round. No one can simply train to become a Favored Soul, for instance.

Shadow Magic is taught. It isn't an academic sort of teaching, but a series of initiations into deeper and deeper levels of mystical knowledge. This corrupting process culminates in the transformation of the shadow mage into a creature of darkness, or else his literal consumption by the Hungry Dark.

[Ghal Marak]

Here's my take on magic:*snip*

I can agree with that.


Agreed about the money. Without worring about hard details, we can state that monetary systems , such as they are, vary widely. Barter is probably common in many places.


Organization? What about something like so:


Cosmology [the Three Primal Forces and the planes]

Gods [the universal pantheon]

Magic [the five types of magic]


Giants [ the Old Builders, the diminshed giants, history, ruins, artifacts,etc]

Common Kindreds [the PC races]

Monsters! [ogres, linnorms, beasts of various kinds,etc]

Maps!

Nations/city-states/territories/etc [ short encyclopedia style entries on the various polities, tribes, etc]


Also, I like that framework. Now we just need to fill it out. :smallbiggrin:

[Zeta Kai]

Also, I like that framework. Now we just need to fill it out. :smallbiggrin:

I agree; the organization is shaping up nicely. I had thought that the maps were complete, though. We have one for the cosmology & one for the geography. They just need to be embedded into the first post.

[Innis Cabal]

I'll start working on it when I get all sorted out here, Ike blew through yesterday and we just got power back a bit ago

[Ghal Marak]

Hey, about Truenaming magic. This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90961) seems like it is a great fix, though I haven't read through the entire thing just yet.

[Innis Cabal]

Was looking through it, and I agree

[combatmedic]

I'll defer to you guys on how best to fix truenaming. D20 mechanics are not my forte, although I'm comfortable running games using the rules set.

I'm going to embed the maps now.

[Ghal Marak]

Looking over the Privateer Firearms Pdf (I forget where I picked it up), I'd say that I like what they have, and as they stand are perfect for the game. They wouldn't outshine bows/crossbows at all. I think the rules for it were already mentioned.

[Innis Cabal]

Then lets use em, thats I think thats 3 votes for

[combatmedic]

While I dislike the Privateer Press rules for firearms[from what I've seen of them] I am not worried about mechanics enough to argue further on the point. I happily accede to the majority on this point.

[combatmedic]

What's the best way to show the cosmological chart and the world map in the first post?

[Zeta Kai]

What's the best way to show the cosmological chart and the world map in the first post?

1) Quote post #243 (geography map).
2) Copy image code within spoiler.
3) Paste into post #1.
4) Repeat steps 1-3 for post #376 (cosmology map).
5) ???
6) Profit.

[combatmedic]

1) Quote post #243 (geography map).
2) Copy image code within spoiler.
3) Paste into post #1.
4) Repeat steps 1-3 for post #376 (cosmology map).
5) ???
6) Profit.

Perfect! Thanks. :smallsmile:

Guys, I am going to be really busy the next week or so. I may not have as much time to work on this. Please keep it going [assuming you are all still having fun designing the setting]. I'll check in when I can to offer ideas/advice/what have you. It's a shared setting, right!:smallsmile:

[Ghal Marak]

I... uh... I actualy can't think of much more to go over. Let me look back and see if we need to cover anything more 'indepth'.