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combatmedic
2008-08-30, 08:49 PM
I imagine someone has already done this, but....

Before us lies a vast continent where once flourished a mighty empire of giants. The giants' empire is gone now, having fallen to famine and strife long ago, but the ruins remain. Huge roadways, collossal bridges, towers of stone so tall they scrape the heavens- all these are strewn across the land, reminders of faded glory. No civilization of the present day can hope to equal the greatness of the giant builders, certainly not without great magic and at ruinous expense. The old roads are still used by travelers though they often are so overgrown that trees as tall as the old giants themselves may grow up among the cracks in the stonework. Many of the old ruins are the dwelling places of monsters and wild beasts, while others have been reclaimed by the burgeoning nations of humans and demihumans.

Map:


Here is the map for Giants in the Earth:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s228/zetakai/Giants.jpg

The top border is the equator (Latitude 0 degrees), while the bottom border is the antarctic circle (Latitude 66 degrees). The scale is 2,000 miles wide. River systems are normally not visible at this scale, but I may (time permitting) add guides to where the rivers are. This map was made in Photoshop CS3.




Magic:

This a not a high magic setting with magic-shops, items-by commission, and wizard academies. No, magic here is less common, more often feared, and less well understood than in many other worlds.

There are five types of magic-

Divine- This magic comes from gods and spirits. It is never taught by rote, nor learned in a school.

Arcane

Pact-
Magical entities called vestiges exist within the currents of the Earthflow. These vestiges were once mortal creatures, but are now immortal and unbodied. They are able to form a symbiotic link with mortals known as pact-binders.

Shadow- Shadow magic calls upon the Hungry Dark, a cosmic force from outside the material plane, older even than the gods. It is dangerous to use, having an insidious corruptive influence on its practicioners.

Truename- Truespeech is the speech by which the gods shaped the protean world, or so the oldest legends tell. The ancient giants used it to mold the earth, heal the sick, and do many other wondrous things. Some members of the smaller races [humans, dwarves, etc] have taken up the study of Truespeech. Brave explorers venture into the old cities looking for the librams of the giant-sages, books filled with forgotten truenames.

Cosmology:
New Cosmological map. It's no Zeta Kai piece, but it will do. :smallsmile:

http://i535.photobucket.com/albums/ee358/Ghalmarak/GiantsintheEarthCosmology.png

Everything is suspended within the Ethervast, which you travel through when going between the planes.

So what do you guys think?

EDIT: Oh, and I took some liberties with the names. If you don't like 'em, their easily changed.





Gods:

There exists one pantheon for the whole world. The names, faces, and aspects of the gods are not constant from one culture/race to the next. It's the essence of the gods that is universal, not the particulars of how mortals see them.

Races:


Dwarves
Hachi
Humans
Kenku
Kobold
Myconids/fungus-folk


Classes:


Barbarian
Bard
Binder
Fighter
Favored Soul
Knight
Ranger
Rogue
Scout
Shadow Caster
Shaman
Sorcerer
Truenamer



Anybody interested in helping me design this, as a shared world/cooperative effort?

Edit- I am updating this, bit by bit, with more to come.

AgentPaper
2008-08-30, 08:54 PM
I could be interested. Any other ideas about what you're making here? Races? Classes? How is magic working?

Innis Cabal
2008-08-30, 08:56 PM
Sure....why not. More info would be awsome though.

combatmedic
2008-08-30, 10:15 PM
Sure!

AgentPaper asked about magic. I have a few ideas
that tend to limit magic without making it super-rare. This would be a medium magic setting.
What do you guys think about these:

Cold Iron Theory:
Cold iron= ordinary iron [or steel]. It's NOT the weird magical stuff from the official books. What does this mean/ Simply that iron tends to act as a magic sink for arcane and fey magic. It soaks the stuff up. Now this, doesn't mean that an armored knight is by any means invulnerable to magical attack, but it does grant him some resistance to many magical attacks. Indirect attacks [stinking cloud, for example] still work just fine, but things like magic missile are much less effective against a steel-clad warrior.

No Magic-marts:

Magic items are traded, but there isn't a large market for them. They are too expensive for most ordinary folks. You don't see magic item shops in most cities, and wizards don't spend all their free time churning out items for adventurers. If you want items, you may need to get them the old fashioned way- dig 'em up out of giant ruins. Of course, some of those items are BIG.

mabriss lethe
2008-08-30, 10:24 PM
this might be a good sort of setting to incorporate alternative magic classes instead of The Big Three.

ToM classes, invokers, psionics-as-magic. the best part about a building from the ground up scenario is that no one can gainsay your choices.

combatmedic
2008-08-30, 10:38 PM
Ah, ToM could work!

Maybe the giants had the secrets of Truenaming, and only a fraction of the old lore survives?
I have an image of scholar-adventurers braving the dangers of a monster infested ruined tower [ built by giants, of course] to gain access to a huge iron-bound book that contains lost true names.


Hmmmmm...if we use pact magic, maybe it could be a form of shamanism? It reminds me of Voodoo in some ways.

Innis Cabal
2008-08-30, 10:42 PM
i like that, and shadow magic could perhaps be more of a corrupting force in the world, make the darkness something to fear.

combatmedic
2008-08-30, 10:45 PM
Shall we use just those three? No actual clerics, wizards, druids, etc?
That might be cool. Can any of the ToM classes make items?

I guess this will be 3E, huh?



I mostly run Classic D&D [from the 80s] these days, but I own a ton of 3E books.

Innis Cabal
2008-08-30, 10:48 PM
3.5 would be best ya.

And perhaps have Favored Souls and Sorcerers for divine and arcane magic. No clerics, no wizards. Use Shaman or Spirit Shaman for druidic magic.

combatmedic
2008-08-30, 10:51 PM
3.5 would be best ya.

And perhaps have Favored Souls and Sorcerers for divine and arcane magic. No clerics, no wizards. Use Shaman or Spirit Shaman for druidic magic.



Sure, that might work well enough.

I'm not really familiar with the favored soul or the shaman. They are in Complete Divine?

combatmedic
2008-08-30, 10:52 PM
Favored souls are spontaneous divine casters- the divine equivalent of the sorcerer, yes? Sort of like special people selected by a higher power, as opposed to clerics trained at a temple. Is that right?

mabriss lethe
2008-08-30, 10:54 PM
Remember that Truename magic needs a major overhaul before it sees any use. (that whole Truespeech DC increasing twice as fast as your skill in it.)I worked up what I think is a semi-viable bandaid for it, but it's *extremely theoretical* (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89510) and some of the other fixes might be better suited.

Shadow Magic is fun, and I know one of the designers posted something akin to a non-offical eratta for it, but I don't remember the specifics (except that it used something akin to a ToB recovery method to regain mystery usage) If you go for the idea of making it some sort of corruptive influence, maybe find some way to incorporate the taint rules from UA or ToH.

Binders could be very Vodoun. The Vestige posesses the Binder in a way very similar to the way a Loa rides a houngan or a bokor. I can dig it.

If you want item creation, but want to avoid core casters, think about using warlocks. They can make/use... pretty much anything.

combatmedic
2008-08-30, 10:56 PM
Remember that Truename magic needs a major overhaul before it sees any use. (that whole Truespeech DC increasing twice as fast as your skill in it.)I worked up what I think is a semi-viable bandaid for it, but it's *extremely theoretical* (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89510) and some of the other fixes might be better suited.

Shadow Magic is fun, and I know one of the designers posted something akin to a non-offical eratta for it, but I don't remember the specifics (except that it used something akin to a ToB recovery method to regain mystery usage) If you go for the idea of making it some sort of corruptive influence, maybe find some way to incorporate the taint rules from UA or ToH.

Binders could be very Vodoun. The Vestige posesses the Binder in a way very similar to the way a Loa rides a houngan or a bokor. I can dig it.

Yes! That's exactly what I was getting at , in reference to binders and Voodoo.


Rules fixes can come now or later- I am confident that we can hammer that stuff out. You guys here on GitP seem pretty hard-core about crunchy stuff!

Innis Cabal
2008-08-30, 11:01 PM
We try! And yes, Favored soul is from CD. A great class.

combatmedic
2008-08-30, 11:05 PM
Is there a general agreement that leaving out the PHB casters would be cool? No clerics, druids, wizards.

I suggest that we leave out psionics. I'm not a psi hater, but for this world, I'm not sure we need it. Anyone disagree?

mabriss lethe
2008-08-30, 11:07 PM
Yes! That's exactly what I was getting at , in reference to binders and Voodoo.


Rules fixes can come now or later- I am confident that we can hammer that stuff out. You guys here on GitP seem pretty hard-core about crunchy stuff!

When it comes to something like truename, if you plan on using it, you need to make that choice early on so you can go ahead and decide what sort of fix you plan on implementing. As written, Truenamers become worse at their craft the further along they get. At level 20 you have a base Truespeech DC of 55 for your utterances and only a +23 bonus from a maxed skill level. Without using every single RAW trick of the trade to dump everything into truenaming, it becomes impossible to use on anything remotely resembling a CR equivalent encounter, this includes your own party. Assuming you used all those tricks you still have something like a 40% chance of spell failure. Like I said. If you like the flavor and are dead set on using truename, find a fix, any fix, and adopt it fast. Otherwise, don't even bother.

But yes, I love the idea of ToM replacing core casters.

Innis Cabal
2008-08-30, 11:08 PM
I'm cool with leaving out Psionics

combatmedic
2008-08-30, 11:10 PM
When it comes to something like truename, if you plan on using it, you need to make that choice early on so you can go ahead and decide what sort of fix you plan on implementing. As written, Truenamers become worse at their craft the further along they get. At level 20 you have a base Truespeech DC of 55 for your utterances and only a +23 bonus from a maxed skill level. Without using every single RAW trick of the trade to dump everything into truenaming, it becomes impossible to use on anything remotely resembling a CR equivalent encounter, this includes your own party. Assuming you used all those tricks you still have something like a 40% chance of spell failure. Like I said. If you like the flavor and are dead set on using truename, find a fix, any fix, and adopt it fast. Otherwise, don't even bother.

But yes, I love the idea of ToM replacing core casters.



Very good point. I will leave the fix up to one of you crunch-masters who actually owns the ToM.
Let's say that truenaming will absolutely be included.

I'll buy probably buy a copy of ToM , if we progress further with this setting.

mabriss lethe
2008-08-30, 11:14 PM
If you replace all of the core casters, another problem rears its ugly lil head.

What do you do with the partial casters that use core casting mechanics, your rangers, bards, paladins?

1. Nix the classes entirely

2. Use non-caster variants for ranger and Paladin (unsure what you'd do with bard.)

3. Reflavor casting using ToM magic, a herculean task that's probably more trouble than it's worth/

4. Keep the mechanic and have them as the primary source of "standard" arcane and divine magic.

If you decide to keep some of the core casters (sorceror or what have you.) it's a moot point and nothing absolutely has to be done.


Also, if you plan on buying tome of magic, do it quick. the used sellers have nearly doubled in price on amazon in the past two or three weeks

combatmedic
2008-08-30, 11:16 PM
If you replace all of the core casters, another problem rears its ugly lil head.

What do you do with the partial casters that use core casting mechanics, your rangers, bards, paladins?

1. Nix the classes entirely

2. Use non-caster variants for ranger and Paladin (unsure what you'd do with bard.)

3. Reflavor casting using ToM magic, a herculean task that's probably more trouble than it's worth/

4. Keep the mechanic and have them as the primary source of "standard" arcane and divine magic.

If you decide to keep some of the core casters (sorceror or what have you.) it's a moot point and nothing absolutely has to be done.


Hmmm, well I'm inclined to remove all the core primary casters- including the sorcerer. Of course, this is a cooperative effort, and if the rest of you guys really want them in....

That being said, I agree that option 3 is not attractive.

Innis Cabal
2008-08-30, 11:17 PM
spon. magic has the ability to cut down on most of the insane builds, and removing druid in favor for Shaman(OA) or Spirit Shaan(CA) would lower their powers collectivly to slightly above, but not to much above, the other three we've agreed on.

combatmedic
2008-08-30, 11:28 PM
spon. magic has the ability to cut down on most of the insane builds, and removing druid in favor for Shaman(OA) or Spirit Shaan(CA) would lower their powers collectivly to slightly above, but not to much above, the other three we've agreed on.

Hmmm.....

Well, I hadn't even considered builds!

Innis Cabal
2008-08-30, 11:30 PM
Well we wouldnt want common munckinry to run amuck.

mabriss lethe
2008-08-30, 11:31 PM
Well we wouldnt want common munckinry to run amuck.

just the new and improved uncommon sort.

combatmedic
2008-08-30, 11:35 PM
Yes, true.

I have no problem leaving paladins [and their pokemounts :smallsmile:] entirely out of this particular setting. I'm not adamantly opposed to them, though.

mabriss lethe
2008-08-30, 11:42 PM
We're treading the line of making Priesthood more of a profession than a class. An avenue of secular authority, not a route to magical power. (though I have a feeling that in such a society, priests would still be magicians of one brand or another.)

Innis Cabal
2008-08-30, 11:43 PM
Thats a problem?

I also get a vision of Macross for this

mabriss lethe
2008-08-30, 11:45 PM
not in the slightest. Just stopping for a moment of reflection before proceeding anew.

combatmedic
2008-08-30, 11:46 PM
We're treading the line of making Priesthood more of a profession than a class. An avenue of secular authority, not a route to magical power. (though I have a feeling that in such a society, priests would still be magicians of one brand or another.)


I agree with this. Most priests should be mundane professionals, not users of magic.

Voodoo style pactbinders might be an exception to this, but who says they are universally accepted? Maybe some cultures respect them, and others fear and revile them.

combatmedic
2008-08-30, 11:47 PM
Thats a problem?

I also get a vision of Macross for this

Macross? Because of the big green dudes [Zentradei, I think....]?

mabriss lethe
2008-08-30, 11:52 PM
If there are more civilized pact binders running about, think about Knights of the Sacred Seal. They replace the idea of a paladin as a religious champion. plus, no pokemount. They've got Andras and Eligor if they want to play with horsies. Of course, you could still incorporate them into a more savage style of binder by having them be more of a "spirit touched warrior"

Innis Cabal
2008-08-30, 11:55 PM
Just a ton of little people living in a giants world.

combatmedic
2008-08-30, 11:56 PM
Yeah, the Knights could very well work as a replacement for paladins. No pokemount is a big bonus for me. :smallsmile:

combatmedic
2008-08-30, 11:57 PM
Just a ton of little people living in a giants world.

Of course. That's what we are going for.
Now I can see what you mean about Marcoss.

Innis Cabal
2008-08-31, 12:05 AM
Just the feel i get. Hordes of goblins and orcs living in an old fortress, the ceilings so high they are home to all sorts of winged creatures, doors taken down and used to make seige weapons for the castle, barack's built into stairs.

combatmedic
2008-08-31, 12:09 AM
Just the feel i get. Hordes of goblins and orcs living in an old fortress, the ceilings so high they are home to all sorts of winged creatures, doors taken down and used to make seige weapons for the castle, barack's built into stairs.

Yes, exactly.


I want 'dungeons' so big they have their own ecosystems and habitats large enough to support big critters.

Innis Cabal
2008-08-31, 12:13 AM
Perhaps make dragons....non-present as well? As much as i like them....we can get better analogs to them

combatmedic
2008-08-31, 12:14 AM
So, paladins out?
We've got a prestige class that replaces them well enough. There's also the knight class from PHB2, although maybe you guys think it's broken?


Bards?

Rangers?

We all seem to agree on nixing the wizard and cleric.

Sorcerers- I'm inclined to leave them aside.

combatmedic
2008-08-31, 12:15 AM
Perhaps make dragons....non-present as well? As much as i like them....we can get better analogs to them

Linnorms? You know, the Norse type wingless dragons? Wyrms, if you will.

Innis Cabal
2008-08-31, 12:21 AM
Knights not broken really, and would be a good replacement for Paly.

Small dragons would be good, like drakes etc. Linnorms work as well

combatmedic
2008-08-31, 12:30 AM
I had a similiar thought about the ranger and the scout class. Use scouts or just non-magical variants of the ranger class, one of the two.

Although...I dunno, rangers we might want to keep. Maybe they are actually trained and organized into fighting brotherhoods, instead of just being dudes who hang out in the woods? Something like the Dunedain of Middle Earth mixed with the crusader knights like the Hospitallers?

This depends on whether we want divine casters in the setting. Clerics are out, and so is the druid, but not necessarily everyone else in the divine camp. Thoughts?

Innis Cabal
2008-08-31, 12:35 AM
I think Divine can fit. I think it should be....far more mystic. The god should be around, but not in the way they usually are.

combatmedic
2008-08-31, 12:40 AM
I think Divine can fit. I think it should be....far more mystic. The god should be around, but not in the way they usually are.



Yes, I tend to agree.

Favored souls might work as a replacement for the cleric. They would be fairly rare, I think. You cannot be taught to be a favored souls- you must be chosen by the gods. Not many are chosen. Their power does not come from the priesthood, indeed, they need not be priests at all. A peasant girl with no spceial training could be a favored soul [think Saint Joan of Arc].

Innis Cabal
2008-08-31, 12:41 AM
That is actually how their fluff is. You are born one, never taught.

combatmedic
2008-08-31, 12:43 AM
That is actually how their fluff is. You are born one, never taught.



Sounds good to me.
Do they grow wings at some point? I vaguely remember something like that.

Innis Cabal
2008-08-31, 12:44 AM
level 17 ya

combatmedic
2008-08-31, 12:48 AM
NPC Adepts? Yes, no, maybe? I see no reason not to use 'em, if we are using any other arcane or divine spellcasters.

Innis Cabal
2008-08-31, 12:50 AM
NPC races arnt to awfuly bad, probably best to include them. The adept can easily be flavored for a mystic, world flowing power source, or demons, or what ever comes to mind

combatmedic
2008-08-31, 12:51 AM
NPC races arnt to awfuly bad, probably best to include them. The adept can easily be flavored for a mystic, world flowing power source, or demons, or what ever comes to mind


Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Adepts don't threaten to overload the magic level and are they are also pretty flexible.

Innis Cabal
2008-08-31, 12:55 AM
also think how large the land would have to be to afford a single giant empire

combatmedic
2008-08-31, 12:56 AM
also think how large the land would have to be to afford a single giant empire

Oh, I'm thinking something like North America. BIG.

combatmedic
2008-08-31, 01:10 AM
We also need to give some thought to what sort[s] of giants this setting features. I imagine giants are much less common in modern times than they were in the days of empire, but they aren't extinct. Many, probably most, have slipped back into barbarism.

Innis Cabal
2008-08-31, 01:13 AM
Forest, Frost, Desert for starters.

combatmedic
2008-08-31, 01:18 AM
I'm with you on forest giants, 100%. They are cool- I really dig the artwork. Frost giants are also cool. I'm not a big fan of desert giants, but maybe that's just me. Stone giants should be included, I think.

Innis Cabal
2008-08-31, 01:21 AM
those as well, forgot about them

combatmedic
2008-08-31, 01:23 AM
Although I like cloud and storm giants, I don't see the giant empire as having had cloud castles and suchlike. They were definitely more of an earthbound civilization.

Naturally, you may have a different view of this. I'm just tossing my ideas out there for y'all to chew on.

Innis Cabal
2008-08-31, 01:25 AM
I see desert giants as the more...nomadic intelectuals. Not as they are printed. Stats are fine, flavor can always be changed. Its like a good chicken noodle soup recipe

combatmedic
2008-08-31, 01:27 AM
I see desert giants as the more...nomadic intelectuals. Not as they are printed. Stats are fine, flavor can always be changed. Its like a good chicken noodle soup recipe

Aha. Nomadic intellectuals...that's much better than giant camel herders, I think.

combatmedic
2008-08-31, 01:45 AM
Well, I've got to knock off for a few hours. Roadtrip tomorrow.

I'll check back tomorrow if I am able, and see how the thread has developed. I wonder if there is a computer where I am headed?

combatmedic
2008-08-31, 09:12 AM
Giants....


Stone
Frost
Desert [ different cultural background, though]
Forest

At some point we should cut off the number of types of true giants [not including giant-kin in this]. I think we can squeeze in a couple of other types. My vote is for the classics: hill and fire. I know there are newer giants in some of the 3E books- eldritch, ocean, death,etc. Anybody have opinions about those?

combatmedic
2008-08-31, 09:29 AM
One idea I'd like to nab from Eberron is to give adepts a domain of choice. They get the spells [but not the granted power] of a single cleric domain. I find this allows them a little more room for customization, so that you can make a hedge witch who's especially good with curses, a magical craftsman, etc.

Keith Baker's gleaner class is also fun, and I'd suggest we consider it.

Innis Cabal
2008-08-31, 10:39 AM
Sounds good, no idea about the gleaner class. I like the domain idea

mabriss lethe
2008-08-31, 02:39 PM
Giants:
Ogre Mages: Thought to be extinct. Still alive and kicking, but they've all gone "underground." Somewhere along the line they realized the best choice for their survival was to merge themselves with the smaller races who flourished after the downfall.

Maybe the ogre mages had darker reasons for it. Maybe they were somehow involved in the downfall of giant civilization and they're hiding from the rest of their giant kin.

Regular ogres then become something like "fallen kin" Once, all ogres were ogre mages but now there are bands of degenerate offspring roaming the lands. (maybe descendants of OMs who didn't escape the wrath of the surviving giants after the fall.)

Dragons:
They can be left out rather easily. There are tons of monsters that can fill their niche.

Innis Cabal
2008-08-31, 05:18 PM
I like it!

combatmedic
2008-09-01, 02:02 PM
I like it, too!

In place of 'proper' dragons, what sort o' beasties are we talking about? I'd already suggested linnorms. Perhaps sometyhing else entirely? What did you have in mind?

combatmedic
2008-09-01, 02:08 PM
Giants:
Ogre Mages: Thought to be extinct. Still alive and kicking, but they've all gone "underground." Somewhere along the line they realized the best choice for their survival was to merge themselves with the smaller races who flourished after the downfall.

Maybe the ogre mages had darker reasons for it. Maybe they were somehow involved in the downfall of giant civilization and they're hiding from the rest of their giant kin.

Regular ogres then become something like "fallen kin" Once, all ogres were ogre mages but now there are bands of degenerate offspring roaming the lands. (maybe descendants of OMs who didn't escape the wrath of the surviving giants after the fall.)

Dragons:
They can be left out rather easily. There are tons of monsters that can fill their niche.


Your mention of hidden ogre mages gave me a thought- what if they aren't Japanese style OMs, but magical shapeshifters [as in Perrault's 'Puss -in-Boots']? We could easily tailor their spell abilities [alter self & polymorph].

Or perhaps that's just silly.
It depends on wheter we want lots of other shapeshifters, I think. D&D has quite a few shapeshifters to choose from, and I'm unconvinced most settings really need to utilize the whole set.

mabriss lethe
2008-09-01, 09:21 PM
Your mention of hidden ogre mages gave me a thought- what if they aren't Japanese style OMs, but magical shapeshifters [as in Perrault's 'Puss -in-Boots']? We could easily tailor their spell abilities [alter self & polymorph].

Or perhaps that's just silly.
It depends on wheter we want lots of other shapeshifters, I think. D&D has quite a few shapeshifters to choose from, and I'm unconvinced most settings really need to utilize the whole set.

errmm... ogre mages are already magical shapeshifters.

Taken from the Ogre Mage Description from the SRD

Change Shape (Su)
An ogre mage can assume the form of any Small, Medium, or Large humanoid or giant.

Innis Cabal
2008-09-01, 10:11 PM
and they are only drawn with an asian influence.

combatmedic
2008-09-01, 11:24 PM
errmm... ogre mages are already magical shapeshifters.

Taken from the Ogre Mage Description from the SRD

Ha! I forgot they can already do that!

combatmedic
2008-09-02, 11:36 AM
Hey guys-

What about gods? There are several ways we could handle this:



1] many gods, with multiple pantheons [ maybe one for each race or major culture group]

2] one pantheon, with different names and aspects of the gods being worshipped by different races/cultures?


3] dualistic - two opposed deities

4] monotheism [I've yet to see this done in a D&D setting]

5] SOMETHING ELSE?


I'm rather inclined to go with option 2. What do you guys think?

Zeta Kai
2008-09-02, 04:44 PM
My only question, CombatMedic, is this:

Do you need a map?

Innis Cabal
2008-09-02, 04:52 PM
Three small pantheons

Elemental/CHaos/Law

Sonic/TN(yes, the 5th element):
Fire/Chaos:
Earth/Law:
Water/Law:
Air/Chaos:

Pantheon of Good(Base Domains)
Beauty:
Good:
Freedom:
Humility:
Valor:

Pantheon of Evil(Same as Above)
Tyranny:
Hate:
Fear/Terror:
Darkness/Corruption:


Can come up with names of course, just wanted to get a general mapout of them here

combatmedic
2008-09-02, 09:45 PM
My only question, CombatMedic, is this:

Do you need a map?

Yes, we need a map. It should be BIG [ a large continet, I think] and have muliple terrain types; desrets, forests, mountains, plains, wetlands,etc. I imagine mostly temperate, with some colder and hotter regions at either end of the map. Doesn't matter if it's northern hemipshere or southern.

combatmedic
2008-09-02, 09:50 PM
Three small pantheons

Elemental/CHaos/Law

Sonic/TN(yes, the 5th element):
Fire/Chaos:
Earth/Law:
Water/Law:
Air/Chaos:

Pantheon of Good(Base Domains)
Beauty:
Good:
Freedom:
Humility:
Valor:

Pantheon of Evil(Same as Above)
Tyranny:
Hate:
Fear/Terror:
Darkness/Corruption:


Can come up with names of course, just wanted to get a general mapout of them here


This looks good. A bit like Dragonlance, which I thought had pretty decent gods. May I suggest that their be local names and aspects of these deities, in some places? It allows us to get the feeling of many gods when we wish for that, without actually having more gods than you have listed.

Oh, and I ask the question I always ask: which god[s] deal with agriculture? Farmers are the majority in most premodern civilizations, and getting food is a BIG deal.

Innis Cabal
2008-09-02, 09:52 PM
I was going to suggest earth spirits/fey/what have you for agriculture, war and some of the more...world spread things. Gives things a little bit easier of a time. Allow clerics to worship their own ideals over having to worship a god or demon lord

Local names works, heck some of the gods could just be energies associated with that element and not really a "god" per say

combatmedic
2008-09-02, 09:53 PM
Also, what about adding one more god to the evil set, so each grouping has five gods?

combatmedic
2008-09-02, 09:55 PM
I was going to suggest earth spirits/fey/what have you for agriculture, war and some of the more...world spread things. Gives things a little bit easier of a time. Allow clerics to worship their own ideals over having to worship a god or demon lord

Local names works, heck some of the gods could just be energies associated with that element and not really a "god" per say

Earth spirits and fey would certainly work. They could even be servants or creations of the elemental gods.

Innis Cabal
2008-09-02, 09:56 PM
Elemental/Chaos/Law

Sonic/TN(yes, the 5th element): Kra'shem
Fire/Chaos: Ensho
Earth/Law: Dane
Water/Law: Illique
Air/Chaos: Whisper

Pantheon of Good(Base Domains)
Beauty: Marea
Good: The Keepers
Freedom: Alanmar
Humility: Yon
Valor: Tapperhed

Pantheon of Evil(Same as Above)
Tyranny: Herruus
Hate/Wrath: Wut
Fear/Terror: Uwerlqer
Darkness/Corruption: Varjo
Cruelty: Yelster


Names subject to change on how people like/dislike them. Feel free to add your own

combatmedic
2008-09-02, 09:58 PM
Looking at it, I really like that you have Sonic as the Fifth Element. This could fit into Truenaming in some way. Gods speaking the world into existence? Maybe the ineffable and totally mysterious Creator[s] of the universe used true names to create the various gods, and the lingering sound of these first words formed the Sonic god? That might be one creation myth, anyway.

combatmedic
2008-09-02, 10:01 PM
I humbly suggest we change Suffering to Cruelty. Suffering can easily be seen as good and noble, or just part of life, but cruelty for the sake of cruelty is pretty evil.

Innis Cabal
2008-09-02, 10:09 PM
changed and names added to all fields.

combatmedic
2008-09-02, 10:19 PM
Looks good! These can be the common names, with other names/aspects as a regional/racial thing.

combatmedic
2008-09-02, 10:23 PM
We don't have clerics, but we do have favored souls, right?

combatmedic
2008-09-02, 10:26 PM
Do we need to list things like domains, favored weapons? Does that stuff matter with favored souls?

Innis Cabal
2008-09-02, 10:27 PM
favored weapon does ya, and domains are listed before their names

combatmedic
2008-09-02, 10:29 PM
favored weapon does ya, and domains are listed before their names

Oh, of course! Those are the domains, not simply truncated portfolios or concepts. Lots of domains, if you have enough of the books,eh?

Innis Cabal
2008-09-02, 10:35 PM
Elemental/Chaos/Law

{table]Domain|Name|Weapon
Sonic/TN|Kra'shem|Mallet
Fire/Chaos|Ensho|Bladed Whip
Earth/Law|Dane|Mace
Water/Law|Illique|Bardiche
Air/Chaos|Whisper|Long Bow[/table]

Pantheon of Good(Base Domains)
{table]Domain|Name|Weapon
Beauty|Marea|Fist
Good|The Keepers|Warhammer
Freedom|Alanmar|Sap
Humility|Yon|Short Bow
Valor|Tapperhed|Long Sword[/table]

Pantheon of Evil(Same as Above)
{table]Domain|Name|Weapon
Tyranny|Herruus|Mace
Hate/Wrath|Wut|Warhammer
Fear/Terror|Uwerlqer|Great Sword
Darkness/Corruption|Varjo|Net
Cruelty|Yelster|Dagger[/table]

Sonic isnt a domain, Cruelty isnt I dont think, the others all are

combatmedic
2008-09-02, 10:38 PM
On the topic of weapons- I'm not a big fan of many of the Exotic weapons in D&D 3E. A lot of them seem bizarre or silly to me. I realize that you may have a very different opinion of them, of course.

Zeta Kai
2008-09-02, 10:41 PM
Yes, we need a map. It should be BIG [ a large continet, I think] and have muliple terrain types; desrets, forests, mountains, plains, wetlands,etc. I imagine mostly temperate, with some colder and hotter regions at either end of the map. Doesn't matter if it's northern hemipshere or southern.

Well, PM me some basic geography you'd like to see, & I'll see what I can do.

combatmedic
2008-09-02, 10:42 PM
Elemental/Chaos/Law

{table]Domain|Name|Weapon
Sonic/TN|Kra'shem|Mallet
Fire/Chaos|Ensho|Bladed Whip
Earth/Law|Dane|Mace
Water/Law|Illique|Bardiche
Air/Chaos|Whisper|Long Bow[/table]

Pantheon of Good(Base Domains)
{table]Domain|Name|Weapon
Beauty|Marea|Fist
Good|The Keepers|Warhammer
Freedom|Alanmar|Sap
Humility|Yon|Short Bow
Valor|Tapperhed|Long Sword[/table]

Pantheon of Evil(Same as Above)
{table]Domain|Name|Weapon
Tyranny|Herruus|Mace
Hate/Wrath|Wut|Warhammer
Fear/Terror|Uwerlqer|Great Sword
Darkness/Corruption|Varjo|Net
Cruelty|Yelster|Dagger[/table]

Sonic isnt a domain, Cruelty isnt I dont think, the others all are

Hmmmm, pretty cool. I'd suggest me mix it up just a wee bit. You've got two gods with mace and two with warhammer- what say we switch one of each for the sake of variety?

combatmedic
2008-09-02, 10:43 PM
What about a pick for Earth?

Zeta Kai
2008-09-02, 10:52 PM
What about a pick for Earth?

Sounds good. What about a battleaxe for Hate/Wrath?

combatmedic
2008-09-02, 10:54 PM
Sounds good. What about a battleaxe for Hate/Wrath?

Also sounds good. Let's see what Innis thinks.

combatmedic
2008-09-02, 11:00 PM
Another question is this:

Are the gods particularly active in mortal affairs, or are they rather distant? I'm inclined towards rather distant, with most interefrnce subtle or indirect. Maybe you guys would prefer a more active pantheon, though?

String
2008-09-02, 11:29 PM
If you guys are still looking for help, I like what ya'll have done so far. As for involved or distant gods, I've always been a fan of the involved gods. If I may ask: whats the planar makeup of this setting? Personally, I can see it just being the big three: Astral, Material and Ethereal.

combatmedic
2008-09-02, 11:32 PM
On another topic, what about PC races? Human, yes , of coure. But what else?
I wouldn't mind having a couple of unusual races, possibly replacing one or more of the standard D&D crew [halflings, gnomes, elves, etc]. I suggest we consider only LA 0 races. That still leaves us with several options, even without using homebrew races.

Oh, and I think keeping subraces to a minimum is usually a good idea.

Opinions?

combatmedic
2008-09-02, 11:33 PM
If you guys are still looking for help, I like what ya'll have done so far. As for involved or distant gods, I've always been a fan of the involved gods. If I may ask: whats the planar makeup of this setting? Personally, I can see it just being the big three: Astral, Material and Ethereal.


I'd like you to join in. It's a group effort now. Why don't you go ahead and post your ideas, If Innis and the others approve, we'll incorporate them.

combatmedic
2008-09-02, 11:45 PM
As far as planes go, I think we need=


Material Plane

Shadow Plane

Upper Plane for the good gods and their celestial servants

Lower Plane for the Evil gods and their fiendish servants

possibly elemental planes and possibly more transitive planes [Astral and Ethereal].

combatmedic
2008-09-02, 11:53 PM
If we want a fairly simple cosmology, what about combining certain planes? The Shadow Plane could feature strongholds of the Evil gods. The Good gods could dwell in 'star realms' that shine in the sky of the astral plane. That sort of thing.

The 3E Manual of the Planes has some great stuff about creating cosmologies, BTW.

Ghal Marak
2008-09-03, 12:37 AM
If we want a fairly simple cosmology, what about combining certain planes? The Shadow Plane could feature strongholds of the Evil gods. The Good gods could dwell in 'star realms' that shine in the sky of the astral plane. That sort of thing.

The 3E Manual of the Planes has some great stuff about creating cosmologies, BTW.

If I can just jump in, I've been working on my own ideas on cosmology and how they interact with each other. Here is an image. http://i535.photobucket.com/albums/ee358/Ghalmarak/Cosmology.jpg

The idea behind it is simple. It's impossible to just "Jump" from the Astral plane to the Shadow plane, you have to go through the Material plane (or Ethereal Plane) to get where you are going. The same is true for the elemental planes, you have to go through heaven to get to the Air or Water planes for example. The analogue for Heaven and Hell are left blank because I couldn't come up with a suitable name for them. :smallredface: This prevents multi-planar shenanigans from happening too much.

Additionally, I had the idea that the Far Plane and Clockwork Nirvana are semi-sealed so that their alignments will not encroach too much upon the Material plane. (You may notice that the planes are more chaotic on the left, and more rigid on the right.) I thought about making a Good and Evil plane that was similarly semi-sealed, but I didn't for reasons that I can't remember, so those are game too. :smallbiggrin:

The Over Realm is simple. It's where the Deities reside, doing whatever they want and such. And then around that is the misc. demi-planes that come and go as the deities wish. They could be personal heavens for those who further their goals the most, or personal hells for souls they manage to steal away from their enemies. Really, they are whatever the DM wants them to be.

combatmedic
2008-09-03, 12:39 AM
Wow! That's a cool cosmology!

Ghal Marak
2008-09-03, 12:41 AM
Wow! That's a cool cosmology!

Thank you. :smallbiggrin:

combatmedic
2008-09-03, 12:44 AM
I mentioned celestials and fiends. I think these should be servants and/or creations of the good and evil gods, respectively. Elementals could be connected with the elemental gods. Tonals for Kra'shem, perhaps.

combatmedic
2008-09-03, 12:45 AM
Tonals are old school- they're from the Classic D&D of the 80s. I'll get a link for a 3E conversion, wait one...

combatmedic
2008-09-03, 12:48 AM
This conversion is the work of Jamie Baty, not myself. It's from the Vaults of Pandius website:
http://www.pandius.com/tonalc.html

Tonals are even more potent than I had remembered!

combatmedic
2008-09-03, 01:08 AM
If we use PHB style dwarves, how will we explain their giant fighting-fu? [Obviously, this isn't a concern if we don't use 'em]

I was thinking the dwarves could have been barbarians who invaded the giant empire after the ogre uprising had crippled it. That's why they developed their traditional anti-giant battle skills.

Ghal Marak
2008-09-03, 01:10 AM
The Energons would work pretty well as servants for the Elemental Gods. Specificaly, the Xac-yij, Xor-yost, Xap-yaup, Xac-yel, and Xong-yong. Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire, and Sonic energy respectively.

EDIT:
If we use PHB style dwarves, how will we explain their giant fighting-fu? [Obviously, this isn't a concern if we don't use 'em]

I was thinking the dwarves could have been barbarians who invaded the giant empire after the ogre uprising had crippled it. That's why they developed their traditional anti-giant battle skills.

Well... yeah, that'll work. Or, could just change it to where they have a natural hatred of all things bigger than Large size and get a reduced +2 dodge bonus to armor class?

If you go the first way: Perhaps the Ogre Mages arranged for the Dwarves to move in and battle with the giants? It wouldn't take much, and an Ogre Mage could do a lot.

Innis Cabal
2008-09-03, 06:12 AM
honestly, i'd say few humans. make it a little less...cliche

Zeta Kai
2008-09-03, 07:52 AM
honestly, i'd say few humans. make it a little less...cliche

Wait, Humans are cliche now? Then why bother with other equally cliche elements of fantasy literature?

Far too much of fantasy literature is based on the same tired old ideas. We need to free ourselves of the constraints of antiquated thinking. We need to embrace new paradigms, & liberate our imaginations so that we can craft bold new stories. The root of our problem lies in our base assumptions of what our fantasy world is like. We assume that it has to have gravity, atmosphere, & land masses composed of earth & stone. How boring! We assume that the creatures that live in this world breathe oxygen, have bilateral symmetry, & are composed of carbon-based proteins. It's been done, people! Sensory imput based on electromagnetic radiation in the "visible spectrum"? Lame! Two genders of roughly the same physiology? Please, let's move forward! I wanna read stories & play games that take place in a world so bizarre, so alien to my experience that I couldn't possibly relate to the characters & their motivations. That's what fantasy is really all about. Anything less is just a rote Tolkien ripoff.

combatmedic
2008-09-03, 09:57 AM
Wait, Humans are cliche now? Then why bother with other equally cliche elements of fantasy literature?

Far too much of fantasy literature is based on the same tired old ideas. We need to free ourselves of the constraints of antiquated thinking. We need to embrace new paradigms, & liberate our imaginations so that we can craft bold new stories. The root of our problem lies in our base assumptions of what our fantasy world is like. We assume that it has to have gravity, atmosphere, & land masses composed of earth & stone. How boring! We assume that the creatures that live in this world breathe oxygen, have bilateral symmetry, & are composed of carbon-based proteins. It's been done, people! Sensory imput based on electromagnetic radiation in the "visible spectrum"? Lame! Two genders of roughly the same physiology? Please, let's move forward! I wanna read stories & play games that take place in a world so bizarre, so alien to my experience that I couldn't possibly relate to the characters & their motivations. That's what fantasy is really all about. Anything less is just a rote Tolkien ripoff.


You should see the debates people have about aliens in Traveller. Whoo boy!

Okay, Innis and the rest of you guys, what about this for humans-


Humans are an old race, with storied and ancient traditions. They've been around, and widely spread, since the days of the giant empire. Of course, back then, they were scavengers who were very careful to avoid being trod upon by the giants! The humans of those times might be compared to mice or rats. Some humans lived under giant cities, scavenging and stealing food [and other things]. Some humans lived on or near the farms of the giants, nabbing food when they could and avoiding the giants' equivalent of cats [shudder.....]. Others lived wild and free in the wilderness, favoring the places the giants avoided- swamps, small cave systems, and densely tangled woods.

In those days, humans had little magic and only primitive technology. Still, they were imitative, creative, and adaptable. They watched, thought, and learned. When the giants' civilization fell, the humans merged from the shadows and began to carve a place for themslves in the emerging order of things.

combatmedic
2008-09-03, 10:02 AM
Of course, maybe that whole background is garbage. You guys decide. I tried to avoid human slaves, human conquerors, and humans as a newbie race.

combatmedic
2008-09-03, 10:16 AM
We should draw up a list of basic PC races, I think.

Allow me to begin:

Humans [relative numbers to be determined through discussion- Innis has one take on this, while a couple of us other guys seem to be in the ''humans are common'' camp]

and.....

It's wide open at this point, guys.

I suggest that we stick to LA 0 races that aren't in the ''nearly always evil monster'' category. We don't need to use any of the PHB races, or we could use 'em all. Ditching elves is a good start, IMO. The giants fill the role of elder, magic-using race for this setting. We have forest giants, so we also have a specifically forest adapted race, as well. Maybe you guys want to keep elves, though?

combatmedic
2008-09-03, 10:33 AM
If we don't use my idea about humans as scavengers in the old giant cities I'd like to salvage the notion for goblins or kobolds [assuming we have either of those]. It fits them even better, I think.

Lappy9000
2008-09-03, 11:27 AM
Anything less is just a rote Tolkien ripoff.

D&D didn't rip-off Tolkein, nor did Gary Gygax invent Advanced Dungeons and Dragons. Despite what some sources may tell you, back in the late 1920s, John Ronald Reuel Tolkein discovered an archaic wooden crate floating in a tidepool at the beach. Upon opening the box, he discovered the most wonderous thing, a game of "role-playing" and "miniature model combat." After reading the tombs within the box (One of which was labeled Explorer's Handguide v.1) he thought that it would make a fine idea for a book. After coming to great success upon the publishing of "his" Lord of the Rings series, Tolkein mysteriously lost the crate, which disappeared from the annals of history for years.

Then, in 1973 Mr. Ernest Gary Gygax discovered an that very same crate in his attic. Figuring that "these sort of things always turn up in attics" Gygax realized the truth that Tolkein, had in fact, stolen his ideas from the tombs! Figuring it to be a stroke of genius, Gygax published a gaming system a year later (all the work was already described in the tombs, he just re-worded them). Therefore, this is why the Tolkein family did not sue Gygax when he introduced first edition with hobbits and balrogs, and the like.

I am raising funds to host an expedition to find these ancient tombs. Currently my current funds of currency (including government grants and spicy currey), included some -$1.27 because I spent some money on a doughnut for breakfast. Conclusively, D&D is evil for robbing me of my hard-earned money in the pursuit of happiness and American jelly-filled pastries.

Apologies all around....

combatmedic
2008-09-03, 11:43 AM
Haha!

I don't really see all that much Tolkien in D&D, not at the heart of the game. Oh sure, there are elements taken from Middle Earth [halflings, orcs, ents,etc]. Underneath all that, I see a lot more Howard, Lieber, and Vance.


Of course, some campaign worlds owe more to Tolkien. Dragonlance [oddly, as they ditched the orcs and modified the hobbits into something new and different] is very LotRish for a D&D setting. Birthright had some very strong Middle Earth vibes going on, but was still pretty original in execution [fairy tale elves, shadow-porting halflings, earth-aspected dwarves, divine right nobles with inherited powers, the awsnhegh,etc].

Innis Cabal
2008-09-03, 12:22 PM
You should see the debates people have about aliens in Traveller. Whoo boy!

Okay, Innis and the rest of you guys, what about this for humans-


Humans are an old race, with storied and ancient traditions. They've been around, and widely spread, since the days of the giant empire. Of course, back then, they were scavengers who were very careful to avoid being trod upon by the giants! The humans of those times might be compared to mice or rats. Some humans lived under giant cities, scavenging and stealing food [and other things]. Some humans lived on or near the farms of the giants, nabbing food when they could and avoiding the giants' equivalent of cats [shudder.....]. Others lived wild and free in the wilderness, favoring the places the giants avoided- swamps, small cave systems, and densely tangled woods.

In those days, humans had little magic and only primitive technology. Still, they were imitative, creative, and adaptable. They watched, thought, and learned. When the giants' civilization fell, the humans merged from the shadows and began to carve a place for themslves in the emerging order of things.


I think it works honestly, i didnt mean no humans, but the "humans are the raising stars of the world" etc, we can do better then that!

Innis Cabal
2008-09-03, 12:29 PM
Elemental/Chaos/Law

{table]Domain|Name|Weapon
Sonic/TN|Kra'shem|Mallet
Fire/Chaos|Ensho|Bladed Whip
Earth/Law|Dane|Pick
Water/Law|Illique|Bardiche
Air/Chaos|Whisper|Long Bow[/table]

Pantheon of Good(Base Domains)
{table]Domain|Name|Weapon
Beauty|Marea|Fist
Good|The Keepers|Warhammer
Freedom|Alanmar|Sap
Humility|Yon|Short Bow
Valor|Tapperhed|Long Sword[/table]

Pantheon of Evil(Same as Above)
{table]Domain|Name|Weapon
Tyranny|Herruus|Mace
Hate/Wrath|Wut|Scythe
Fear/Terror|Uwerlqer|Great Sword
Darkness/Corruption|Varjo|Net
Cruelty|Yelster|Dagger[/table]

Sonic isnt a domain, Cruelty isnt I dont think, the others all are

Also, Domains are changed

As for Kobolds, I was thinking...more old school, hairy, more like gnolls, maybe mix the two. Have them actually be a threat, take the orcs invader role?

Another_Poet
2008-09-03, 01:06 PM
Hi guys!

I think this is a wonderful setting and I love what's being done with the classes, gods and elements. I have some suggestiosn for races, if you'll tolerate one more over-eager voice :)

Giants in the World

There are three types of giants left in the world, none of which are exactly the same as the ancient giants who built the empire. All presumably originated with that race, but each has changed in some way. They are:

1) The Crushed Men, a new PC and NPC race.
These are the last known descendants of the ancient giants. They are much bigger than humans, but they walk hunched over as if they fear their height. They are nowhere near the size of their ancestors, as anyone who has seen the ruins can tell. They have shrunk considerably over the generations, and are often pitied rather than feared.

The Crushed Men are not very common, but common enough that at least one or two can be found near any village or town. Many of them live in the wilderness or camp out in the remains of their ancestors' empire. These feral Crushed Men generally keep to themselves, but can be extremely hostile and dangerous if spooked or provoked by travelers. They are sombre and morose by nature. Many won't even speak; they simply hide out and bide their time, and attack without warning if angered. Diplomacy is only as successful as the Crushed Man's mood that day.

Other Crushed Men have become valued members of rural communities. They don't farm or build normal houses, but as a local strong man and village protector they can be quite productive members of society. The fact that they don't ask for much in way of payment is also appreciated. Like their wild brothers, these Crushed Men are filled with a bitter sadness and are neither talkative nor friendly. But they have learned to be civil (in the barest sense of the word) and are great stoics. Children can be left in their company with no fear.

The most peculiar thing about the Crushed Men is that they are all male. No female has ever been spotted. Some people wonder if this was the cause of the fall of the ancient giants, but the Crushed Men accept it as a matter of course. They have long life-spans like elves, but how they were brought into being at all without females is a mystery.

The typical Crushed Man should be size Huge but counts as size Large in all respects. Their stooped posture limits their physical prowess, so their speed, strength, constitution and weapon size are all those of a Large creature. Crushed Men have oily grey manes of hair, grey-white skin and the salt stains of tears in their beards. They care little for life or their own wellbeing, and don't bother grooming unless their human neighbours ask them to. Although sad by nature, their loyalty is great to those who bring them even brief moments of joy.

They know little or nothing about their ancestors or how the empire ended. If they have any knowledge of such matters, they aren't sharing. They dislike large crowds and stay away from cities.

I can offer a ful stat block if you guys like this race. It'd be LA+1 with no racial HD. Probably +2 Str and Con, -2 Dex and Cha, and some cool abilities like Scent and the like.

2) Ogre Mages, restyled.
As others discussed above, these Ogre Mages have moved underground. The mortal races living above ground do not know of their existence; they are only rarely encountered, and even more rarely survived. Those who do report seeing them are either called crazy, or told they simply saw a feral Crushed Man (see above).

These Ogre Mages should be changed from the MM version. They should be made one size category larger (which would still be nowhere near the size of the ancient giants; they've shrunk over the ages almost as much as the Crushed Men). They should also be given some abilities that mesh with their underground lifestyle. This will increase their CR, and they are not available as a playable race. I would be happy to try my hand at statting one out, if the others here like the idea of making them bigger & tougher.

Ogre Mages loathe Crushed Men, considering them despiccable weaklings. They only come to the surface to hunt and kill Crushed Men, and then only in small parties at night.

3) Colossi, the Sleeping Titans (epic-level monsters).
Although the ancient giants died out, a few of their number instead went to sleep beneath the earth. Not in caves like the Underdark; rather, they have morphed into actual terrain. Certain mountains and large hills are named after them (a crag known as Giant's Rock, a sulphurous vent known as Giant's Lantern, etc.) but no living person knows there is truth behind these names. The Colossi sleep in their stony graves, waiting for the day they are awoken again by the bright victory-horns of their fallen kings, careless to the wonts and lives of those tiny vermin living above them.

I would suggest that only 15-30 Colossi exist in the entire world. None of the races know they are there, although some old fragments of myth make reference to them. High-level PCs could find clues to the locations of their lairs through study and exploration. There are many places named after the Colossi, but only a few actually house a sleeping giant.

These giants can be woken in any number of ways. Striking into their resting places with iron tools may disturb their sleep and incur their wrath. Songs in ancient Giantish could perhaps procure their friendship. Finding and sounding an ancient victory-horn may awaken many of them at once, hopeful that their empire is rising again - and they will be murderous when they discover the truth.

The fey know of these sleeping lords, and may taunt adventurers with clues to their whereabouts and habits.

These Colossi are meant to be beings of legend that only a few PC groups would encounter and even fewer could hope to defeat. Their CR could range from 20 to 40. I wouldn't bother statting them out as a race; rather, I think that each one should be its own unique creature with strengths and weaknesses. Think of the PS2 game Shadow of Colossus and the range of different giants enountered there.

Although they are of the race that built the ancient empire, these Clossi have changed in some way; their magic and ingenuity is faded, their minds are warped by the passing of time and the losses they have sustained. Although mighty, each one is afflicted with its own form of PTSD from watching the world fall apart - some are sad, some psychotic, some in denial. It is best to leave them lie, but what do adventurers do best? Hmm...

For other giant types besides these three, I wouldn't use their fluff, just their crunch. For example, the stats and abilities of a Hill Giant or Forest Giant could be used for a feral Crushed Man who is supposed to be a serious challenge. More badass giants like Cloud Giants and Fire Giants could be mixed in with the Ogre Mages or used as a basis for one of the Colossi.

That's the way I would suggest structuring it, mostly for setting/atmosphere reasons. If all the different MM varieties of giants (trolls, ogres, ogre mages, those sea-ogres, hill giants, forest giants, fire giants, cloud giants, etc.) are still wandering around, the ruins don't seem as special and the setting doesn't seem as lonely and "discoverable".

Instead, I'd suggest just these three types of giants for fluff, with only the Crushed Men being public knowledge. This leaves a lot more mystery in the world, and players who run into an Ogre Mage with Fire Giant stats can't just look in the MM to see what they're facing. Just as much variety in terms of challenges, but more enticement to explore and learn.

ap

Ghal Marak
2008-09-03, 02:13 PM
I like the idea of the Colossi (and I loved Shadow of the Colossus), and I am in favor of the Ogre Mages being bumped up a size catagory.

The Crushed Men are pretty neat, too. But you brushed on something that I'd like to look at in depth. Trolls, and where they would fit into this. Are these going to be the standard Trolls, or something a bit larger like Mountain Trolls? Because in a bigger world, you need bigger trolls.

Another_Poet
2008-09-03, 02:27 PM
I like the idea of the Colossi (and I loved Shadow of the Colossus), and I am in favor of the Ogre Mages being bumped up a size catagory.

The Crushed Men are pretty neat, too. But you brushed on something that I'd like to look at in depth. Trolls, and where they would fit into this. Are these going to be the standard Trolls, or something a bit larger like Mountain Trolls? Because in a bigger world, you need bigger trolls.

Hi Ghal Marak!

I'd say either trolls could stay as-is (but not considered Giants, as in, conasidered more related to orcs than to the ancient Giants).

Trolls are probably too flavourful to leave out of the game, but if they are one more race of giants running around, again, the ruins seem a little less "special" to me.

ap

Ghal Marak
2008-09-03, 02:45 PM
Hi Ghal Marak!

I'd say either trolls could stay as-is (but not considered Giants, as in, conasidered more related to orcs than to the ancient Giants).

Trolls are probably too flavourful to leave out of the game, but if they are one more race of giants running around, again, the ruins seem a little less "special" to me.

ap

Hey AP. :smallbiggrin:

I agree with the change from Giant type. Could go with what you said, changing it's type from Giant to Monstrous Humanoid type with Goblinoid subtype. It could be a step above Bugbears in the goblinoid pecking order.

Or perhaps change it to Magical Beast? I always thought of Trolls as less Roving Marauders and more eat-everything-within-reach-then-move-on kind of monster.

Another_Poet
2008-09-03, 02:54 PM
Either works for me, if it feels right to the other contributors in this thread.

I'm eager for more responses to my proposed giant races, whenever people get round to reading them. :smallsmile:

combatmedic
2008-09-03, 05:48 PM
Colossi are very cool- I'd be very happy to include them.

Innis Cabal
2008-09-03, 06:05 PM
i like the colossi, agree pretty much with Combat.

combatmedic
2008-09-03, 06:19 PM
Crushed Men are very well thought out, but I'm not sure I want to abandon the MM giants Innis had proposed [FOREST, DESERT, etc]. I don't care for LA + races in this setting, and I don't want giants as PCs. I would prefer to keep the giants a bit more mysterious and uncommon [if not downright rare in most parts].

Let's vote. Crushed Men or MM types [not all, just the ones we want]. I'll be happy with whatever the group decides. This is a shared world, after all.

Colossi get my vote, no matter what else we decide. They are way cool!

Ghal Marak
2008-09-03, 06:54 PM
Yes to Colossi.

Hmm... I have to go with the MM Giants on this one. Nothings wrong with the Crushed Men, but they just don't seem right for this set up. No offence AP. :smallsmile:

String
2008-09-03, 07:12 PM
Personally, I'm against the crushed men, and in favor of the MM giants, although I like the idea about the ogre mages and the Colossi. I also like the idea combatmedic suggested for the humans history. I also like the thought of dwarves bonus being to Large creatures, and also suggest an idea for elves:

What if there are no elves anymore, because they are all drow? I mean, generally drow are considered an 'offshoot' of the elves, and its assumed that the races are pretty much split. I suggest that the drow are intrinsically connected to the Shadow Plane (drow shadowcasters! :D). For example:

No race now living (or at least, none that would share it's knowledge) remembers a time before the Drow. No human, no dwarf or gnome remembers when Elves walked, in the waning days of the Giant's Reign. While Giants learned the Truenames of things, the elves hid within their cloistered Havens, warded against detection and intrusion, and toyed with Shadow. They opened permanent portals to the Plane of Shadow, and exposed their race to the dark energies within. They discovered a way to bend it too their wills, and the first Shadowcasters were born. Over time ,the elves became dependent on their ephemeral magic, and their constant exposure to the dark energy warped them, until eventually, they became something new and evil. They were the first drow. These drow were vicious, and a coup began. Eventually the elves had been all but destroyed, and the drow were the new masters of the Havens. But these new creatures were not content to sit and let the Giants rule the land. They struck out. And they were struck down. When the dwarves came, only the tattered remnants of the bloodthirsty drow remained, hiding in hills and mountains. The dwarves drove them deeper, and burned their havens, while their Binders used their vestiges' knowledge to close the portals. Some learned of the shadowstuff before it was all but banished, though, and passed it along. Now the drow live in the hearts of the deepest pits and caverns, driven off by the Dwarves, and still that dark magic flows through their veins.

-

There. Drow! Thoughts?

Innis Cabal
2008-09-03, 07:18 PM
No Drow, i will dig my heels into the ground for as long as i can. New Elves, not nature, not drow, totally new if elves at all

String
2008-09-03, 07:27 PM
No Drow, i will dig my heels into the ground for as long as i can. New Elves, not nature, not drow, totally new if elves at all

Not to be confrontational, but may I ask what you have against drow? I'm not particularly fond of them myself, truth be told, but I like this background. Also, could you explain what you meant by the bold section of your quote?

Innis Cabal
2008-09-03, 07:34 PM
Because

1. New setting, we can avoid....problems with people complaining about them
2. They are....boring, as a race, even if we reflavor them
3. Over done.

String
2008-09-03, 07:41 PM
Hmm...I feel like i'm encountering a knee-jerk reaction to Drow (that once again, I share) being 'over done'. However, I really feel like they could be used well. However, I am willing to concede the point.

Do you have a problem with Elves as the original Shadowcasters? Or with them being a non PC race? What if we keep the flavor I wrote up, but ditch the color-scheme change and just make it so that the Elves got cocky and then got smacked down? What if they are all feral now? Not animalistic, but more of a woodland tarzan type thing: Not friendly, not fancy, not your momma's High Elves.

Innis Cabal
2008-09-03, 08:27 PM
Giants should have been the ones who used Shadow Magic first, imho. The elves could have easily been their slaves, much like the humans, only kept around to use the magic though

combatmedic
2008-09-03, 08:34 PM
I vote no drow, ever. Again, I'm not sure why we need elves at all.


Would the shadar-kai work in place of drow, for what you're talking about?

combatmedic
2008-09-03, 08:52 PM
I should add that the elf idea was very good, I'm just not sold on elves in this setting. Maybe I'm just burnt out on elves because they get so much attention.

Please don't let my reaction stifle anyone's creativity. I'm not the 'head editor', just the OP. I'm just letting you guys know how I feel. I'll go with the overall group decision, as always. Let's continue the discussion, please.

Innis Cabal
2008-09-03, 08:52 PM
what do you think of the kobold idea?

combatmedic
2008-09-03, 08:53 PM
what do you think of the kobold idea?

Old school doggie kobolds? Hell yeah!

combatmedic
2008-09-03, 08:56 PM
I started playing with the Red Box. To me, kobolds are scaly little dog-men, not miniature dragon-men. I've never quite gotten used to the new reptillian 'bolds.

combatmedic
2008-09-03, 09:02 PM
Kobolds should not be reptiles, IMO. They are mammals. Look at an armadillo. They certainly have a scaly appearance [with some hairy bits if you look closel]. Scaly does not have to mean reptilian.

Innis Cabal
2008-09-03, 09:03 PM
I agree, started with the pink, but yes, hairy dog men, in this world, nasty threatening agents of the Shadow Magic

combatmedic
2008-09-03, 09:07 PM
I agree, started with the pink, but yes, hairy dog men, in this world, nasty threatening agents of the Shadow Magic

Ah, kobolds as shadowcasters? Now, that is different.

Innis Cabal
2008-09-03, 09:08 PM
Perhaps not as shadow casters, but...mutations from the dark corruption, used by what ever strong hold's of the actual shadow casters

combatmedic
2008-09-03, 09:10 PM
Perhaps not as shadow casters, but...mutations from the dark corruption, used by what ever strong hold's of the actual shadow casters

That's cool, too.

combatmedic
2008-09-03, 09:11 PM
Shall we discuss the PC races?

Innis Cabal
2008-09-03, 09:13 PM
Dwarf: Should be kept imho, retool them as the race that burrows into the sunken cities of the old races

Elves: I think they can work. How so? No idea. Shouldnt be written off

Hafling: Eh?

Half orc: Again an Eh....maybe?

Human: see above

Half Elves: Depends on Elves themselves

Wawrfoged: Heck no

combatmedic
2008-09-03, 09:19 PM
Dwarf: Should be kept imho, retool them as the race that burrows into the sunken cities of the old races

Elves: I think they can work. How so? No idea. Shouldnt be written off

Hafling: Eh?

Half orc: Again an Eh....maybe?

Human: see above

Half Elves: Depends on Elves themselves

Wawrfoged: Heck no


Humans- I absolutely want them included, and as a common race [no, they need not dominate the entire setting].

Dwarfs- Sure, they can be cool. Burrowers into the sunken cities of the old civilization[s]? Sounds good.

Elves- I am fine with using them, if they can be made cool and different. Nothing we've seen before in a dozen other settings.

Halflings- please no.



Warforged - I agree, they don't fit the setting.

combatmedic
2008-09-03, 09:22 PM
Gnomes- I have some ideas for them, but they would probably work better in a different setting.

Innis Cabal
2008-09-03, 09:23 PM
I bitterly hate gnomes...though im not opposed to them in any form

combatmedic
2008-09-03, 09:25 PM
I bitterly hate gnomes...though im not opposed to them in any form

I'll leave them aside, then.

Innis Cabal
2008-09-03, 09:26 PM
no on, go ahead with your plan. Just...so many years of hate....

combatmedic
2008-09-03, 09:29 PM
What about this lineup:

Humans

Dwarves

Elves

up to 4 other LA 0 races

No half breeds [elves and humans are not interfertile, at least not without magic involved].

That strikes a balance bewteen old and new, I think. The additional LA 0 races replace the half orcs, half elves, gnomes, and halflings. These new races could be homebrew or taken from the official books.

Innis Cabal
2008-09-03, 09:30 PM
ill take a glance through some of the other races, but it sounds good to me

combatmedic
2008-09-03, 09:31 PM
no on, go ahead with your plan. Just...so many years of hate....

My plan for gnomes doesn't fit this setting. You'll see it later, in another homebrew, I'm sure.:smallsmile:

combatmedic
2008-09-03, 09:43 PM
In addition to the several LA0 races in the WotC books, many of your fellow posters have created homebrew races. I don't know jack about most of these, but I'm perusing the list now:


http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10826


If there is something we all like, we can attempt to contact the creator and obtain permission to use it. I imagine most people would be happy to say ''yes.''

Innis Cabal
2008-09-03, 09:49 PM
I've made a bee/huminoid combination, called the Hachi, for another project.

They sort of fit the feel of a huge expansive world. I can give a link if you'd like

combatmedic
2008-09-03, 09:59 PM
I've made a bee/huminoid combination, called the Hachi, for another project.

They sort of fit the feel of a huge expansive world. I can give a link if you'd like

Link please.

Innis Cabal
2008-09-03, 10:01 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4516642&postcount=2

can be as relfavored as needed mind you, but they could work very well with the binder class/shaman world view

combatmedic
2008-09-03, 10:02 PM
I'm looking over it now....

combatmedic
2008-09-03, 10:05 PM
I like them. We'll have to see what the other guys think. They might need minor adjustments to fit this setting[alter dragon reference if we aren't using true dragons, change favored class].

Innis Cabal
2008-09-03, 10:07 PM
Of course, the flavor of them can change greatly, though they would work best still nature worshiping creatures. The flavor as written for the Lords of Creation game I'm apart of

combatmedic
2008-09-03, 10:08 PM
Of course, the flavor of them can change greatly, though they would work best still nature worshiping creatures. The flavor as written for the Lords of Creation game I'm apart of

I was in the original Lords of Creation game. :smallsmile:

Innis Cabal
2008-09-03, 10:14 PM
So I've heard. You should join up. Awsome world we have going

combatmedic
2008-09-03, 10:17 PM
So I've heard. You should join up. Awsome world we have going

Maybe I will....

combatmedic
2008-09-03, 10:18 PM
This dude has made [based on some online game] the best elves ever!

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11558

combatmedic
2008-09-03, 10:22 PM
I wouldn't really use those elves for this setting, though.:smallbiggrin:

Lyndworm
2008-09-03, 10:26 PM
If you guys are looking for more races, then I'll definitely pimp out my work offer my services. The only race I have statted up are the Tanarkin, and I don't think that they fit very well, but you're welcome to them.

I've been following this thread for a while, but didn't have anything to contribute. Long story short, excellent job.

Zack

combatmedic
2008-09-03, 10:28 PM
If you guys are looking for more races, then I'll definitely pimp out my work offer my services. The only race I have statted up are the Tanarkin, and I don't think that they fit very well, but you're welcome to them.

I've been following this thread for a while, but didn't have anything to contribute. Long story short, excellent job.

Zack

Cool. Yeah, if you've got an idea for a race, shoot.

combatmedic
2008-09-03, 10:32 PM
I agree with you, they probably don't fit this setting very well. They are a cool race, though. Have you used them in your home game?

Lyndworm
2008-09-03, 10:53 PM
I came very, very close to using them, but a player and I decided that they didn't quite fit. I have every intention of using them soon, though.

Zack

combatmedic
2008-09-03, 10:59 PM
Let's look at the niches occupied by the races I've suggested we leave out:

half-orcs- big, ugly, bruisers

half elves- diplomats, in-betweeners

halflings- small and sneaky

gnomes- ???

Maybe this can help us to pick good replacements. I don't mean the new races have to be knock-offs of the old ones [what would be the point, then?] but just that we ought to consider how they will fit in.

Innis Cabal
2008-09-03, 11:08 PM
We can even homebrew a race for all those roles. No need to not tailor races to the world we live in

combatmedic
2008-09-03, 11:08 PM
We can even homebrew a race for all those roles. No need to not tailor races to the world we live in

True, true.

combatmedic
2008-09-03, 11:10 PM
I'm not really sure how'd I'd describe the gnome niche. Apparently, neither are the WotC designers, since they keep on changing the little dudes! And now they are in the MM?!?

Innis Cabal
2008-09-03, 11:12 PM
Couldn't be more happy about them not being in the core players book

Also, what are the demons/devils of the world going to be like? The angels etc.

A suggestion, if i may, i know ive made alot of them, hopefully all good >.>

The Devils and Demons are the opposite sides of the Shadow Magic, one wishing to drown all in the flood of night, the other wishing to slowly and silently cast the "light" of its power on all things, controling them through silence and order.

combatmedic
2008-09-03, 11:17 PM
Couldn't be more happy about them not being in the core players book

Also, what are the demons/devils of the world going to be like? The angels etc.

A suggestion, if i may, i know ive made alot of them, hopefully all good >.>

The Devils and Demons are the opposite sides of the Shadow Magic, one wishing to drown all in the flood of night, the other wishing to slowly and silently cast the "light" of its power on all things, controling them through silence and order.

That's an interesting notion about demons and devils.

I think the gods should be served be outsider races. Celestials should serve the gods of Good. Fiends should serve the Gods of Evil. There may also be independents among both the celestials and the fiends, of course.

Innis Cabal
2008-09-03, 11:20 PM
Well, another idea i had for the less...godly powers..

Nature: Spirits of the Earth, power shamanistic and binder powers

The Light: Since the world is set already as a dark/light world, the Light is a power higher then the gods, unknowable its its power, extent, or even its reason for aiding the world, fuels the base of the favored soul powers, creates them where it is needed, but allows them to serve the other gods

The Dark: The source of the shadow magic, a corrutping and malific force that devours, converts and controls all it touchs. Some even speculate that the gods of evil were once noble before the touch of The Dark(name pending)

combatmedic
2008-09-03, 11:26 PM
Well, another idea i had for the less...godly powers..

Nature: Spirits of the Earth, power shamanistic and binder powers

The Light: Since the world is set already as a dark/light world, the Light is a power higher then the gods, unknowable its its power, extent, or even its reason for aiding the world, fuels the base of the favored soul powers, creates them where it is needed, but allows them to serve the other gods

The Dark: The source of the shadow magic, a corrutping and malific force that devours, converts and controls all it touchs. Some even speculate that the gods of evil were once noble before the touch of The Dark(name pending)

This could work. Then again, some people may prefer to emphasize the gods. Let's see what the other guys think.

Innis Cabal
2008-09-03, 11:27 PM
all of its just throwing things out at well past midnight....just putting them on the table to be stripped, devoured and thrown away :D

combatmedic
2008-09-03, 11:30 PM
all of its just throwing things out at well past midnight....just putting them on the table to be stripped, devoured and thrown away :D


Yeah, me too! :smallbiggrin:

Lyndworm
2008-09-03, 11:30 PM
Howabout Kenku, for the sneaky role?
+2 dex, -2 str, Small size, Low-light Vision, +4 Racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks, 2 claws (1d3), when on the giving or receiving side of an Aid Other check, the Kenku receives +3 (vs. +2) and when attacking a foe that is flanked by an ally, the Kenku receives +4 (vs. +2), able to Mimic sounds, voices, and accents. MM3. Normally evil, but we're refluffing anyway.
Maybe the bruisers could be a modified hobgoblin/bugbear?

Unfortunately, I can't think of any diplomats. Hoepfully I've helped.

Zack

Innis Cabal
2008-09-03, 11:33 PM
Kenku would actually be really awsome. Always loved them

Perhaps give them more of a...levant coast/near east? Think birdmen of the Byzantine Empire/ottoman empire

combatmedic
2008-09-03, 11:37 PM
Kenku are voice imitating crow-men now, and not telepathic mute hawk-men. BIG chnage between editions! Weird.

Anyhoo, I'm fine with Kenku. The only issue would be evil alignment, and as you say, we can rework the background details.

What bout you other guys [Innis, etc]- how do you feel about kenku as the 'sneaky race.'

Innis Cabal
2008-09-03, 11:38 PM
change alignment, i think my previous post says how i feel though

combatmedic
2008-09-03, 11:40 PM
Kenku would actually be really awsome. Always loved them

Perhaps give them more of a...levant coast/near east? Think birdmen of the Byzantine Empire/ottoman empire

Hey! Byzantine crow-folk? That's great!

Innis Cabal
2008-09-03, 11:41 PM
Thank you!

Races that can fly would have an -awsome- advantage in the world at large. No need to build up with stairs and the like in the Giant cities. Giant Eyire's, towers that hang from nothing but walls. Architecture would be....amazing

combatmedic
2008-09-03, 11:44 PM
Thank you!

Races that can fly would have an -awsome- advantage in the world at large. No need to build up with stairs and the like in the Giant cities. Giant Eyire's, towers that hang from nothing but walls. Architecture would be....amazing

The kenku don't fly, though, right? Are you talking about other races?

Innis Cabal
2008-09-03, 11:46 PM
Other races, the Hachi if they are put in

I was thinking, retool them more to be like paper wasps. Growing and building cities in the upper reachs of other city based civilisations. Really going for the Macross feel here. Thats how the whole world feels to me A giant Zen'Tradi world

combatmedic
2008-09-03, 11:50 PM
Other races, the Hachi if they are put in

I was thinking, retool them more to be like paper wasps. Growing and building cities in the upper reachs of other city based civilisations. Really going for the Macross feel here. Thats how the whole world feels to me A giant Zen'Tradi world

I like this.

Innis Cabal
2008-09-03, 11:53 PM
Glad you do, sadly, its time for me to hit the hay. Let me know if I should start working on the Hachi as a more world present race.

combatmedic
2008-09-03, 11:55 PM
Glad you do, sadly, its time for me to hit the hay. Let me know if I should start working on the Hachi as a more world present race.

I'd say yes, retool them. The other guys haven't weighed in on them yet, though. Maybe your revised write up will sway them, eh?

G-nite. I'm going to sleep soon, myself.

combatmedic
2008-09-04, 12:20 AM
insomnia...........

Another_Poet
2008-09-04, 10:22 AM
I'm okay with all of the PHB races, or leaving any of them out. I'm indifferent.

Hachi should, I think, not be available for PCs. They're a great addition to the world but they'd be much better as a hostile race that inhabits the upper reaches of the ruins.

No problem about keeping the proposed MM giants. If they're really very rare then it keeps some of the mystery, I suppose. Especially since none of them are Colossal (as I recall).

I will say though, I wonder if we couldn't keep Crushed Men in as another option, maybe if they are more rare as well. Something about a race of shrunken, stooped, heartbroken giants...it justs seems cool. If they had no racial bonuses other than their Large size they could maybe be LA+0. Or maybe we could keep them as an NPC race only. Would either of those options make you reconsider 'em?

ap

Innis Cabal
2008-09-04, 12:27 PM
The Hachi are rather...nature minded to be all that hateful, but they could be the exemplars of nature, the ones that strike out against the other races. Would that work?

Another_Poet
2008-09-04, 12:31 PM
Works for me. Kind of a "you can walk around beneath our hives if you pick up after yourselves and don't mess with us" kind of mentality?

Innis Cabal
2008-09-04, 12:35 PM
Ya, i'd still like to push for them as a PC race over some of the others, sort of....wandering keepers of the forest and the power of nature. But ya, over all a "we're watching you...always....dont litter..." force

combatmedic
2008-09-04, 02:18 PM
I like the Hachi as a nature oriented race, whether they are NPC only or available for PCs. If they are NPCs, might as well give them full flight. If PCs, what about dressing up your crunch of flight at a certain HD, by describing it all in terms of insect life cycles [pupae vs adult, that sort of thing]?

Innis Cabal
2008-09-04, 03:52 PM
sure thing

combatmedic
2008-09-04, 04:03 PM
So, what about other PC races?

Innis Cabal
2008-09-04, 04:49 PM
taking a look

Kenku really can work well
you said no LA races....so that is slowing my search

Ghal Marak
2008-09-04, 04:53 PM
I have to say, I like the idea of the Hachi. If only because it has that Gulliver's Travels feel of a tiny guy fighting a wasp (or in this case, a bee man) with a needle. :smallbiggrin:

Personally, I like the idea of plant people. Looking over the link Combatmedic provided, I ran across a race called the Mushroom folk. The other fungus race is not so good, but the Mushroom folk is pretty awesome. :smallbiggrin: You could think of it as this.

Mushroom folk evolved from the fungus that tends to spread through the wrecked Giant homes. A house that is reclaimed by nature (i.e. windows broken, mold and lichen spreading through the food stores, vines and grasses growing throughout the house) are the places where Mushroom folk originate.

Back on the Elf/Drow subject, I personaly like the Drow idea. But since everybody seems keen on shooting it down, I guess it dosen't matter. :smallsmile:

Oh, also, just throwing this in, the Returned race seems like it would be pretty cool. Perhaps people who wielded Shadowmagic too much come back as a Returned when they die (loosing all previous racial traits and gaining new ones).

Innis Cabal
2008-09-04, 04:55 PM
Thank you, perhaps you to should look into LoC hmm? :D

And the returned seem like a good idea, I see a very....dark/light battle comming in this world. Night time and darkness flushed away by the world of humans in sheer terror, the Hachi flying around with giant lanterns "dispelling" the clinging nothing, while the dark creatures cast giant swaths of deeper darkness before they invade

combatmedic
2008-09-04, 04:56 PM
I have to say, I like the idea of the Hachi. If only because it has that Gulliver's Travels feel of a tiny guy fighting a wasp (or in this case, a bee man) with a needle. :smallbiggrin:

Personally, I like the idea of plant people. Looking over the link Combatmedic provided, I ran across a race called the Mushroom folk. The other fungus race is not so good, but the Mushroom folk is pretty awesome. :smallbiggrin: You could think of it as this.

Mushroom folk evolved from the fungus that tends to spread through the wrecked Giant homes. A house that is reclaimed by nature (i.e. windows broken, mold and lichen spreading through the food stores, vines and grasses growing throughout the house) are the places where Mushroom folk originate.

Back on the Elf/Drow subject, I personaly like the Drow idea. But since everybody seems keen on shooting it down, I guess it dosen't matter. :smallsmile:

Oh, also, just throwing this in, the Returned race seems like it would be pretty cool. Perhaps people who wielded Shadowmagic too much come back as a Returned when they die (loosing all previous racial traits and gaining new ones).


Fungoids? Yes, I am a fungus fan. Some kind of myconids would be cool.

combatmedic
2008-09-04, 04:58 PM
taking a look

Kenku really can work well
you said no LA races....so that is slowing my search


If no one objects, I'd say kenku are in. I especially like them with your Ottoman/Byzantine/Levantine angle.

Ghal Marak
2008-09-04, 05:04 PM
If no one objects, I'd say kenku are in. I especially like them with your Ottoman/Byzantine/Levantine angle.

I don't really mind one way or the other. I've never played a Kenku nor even seen a Kenku played.

EDIT: @Innis Cabal: LoC? I'm not familiar with that abbreviation.

combatmedic
2008-09-04, 05:14 PM
I don't really mind one way or the other. I've never played a Kenku nor even seen a Kenku played.

Ya, new ground.

Innis Cabal
2008-09-04, 05:16 PM
Lords of Creation, its a game thats running on these forums, its another world building project where you play a god and make an organic and living timeline. We are about to enter into the second "Year" of the game, out of three

each year is a 12 week set, so, lots of time left

Also, Kenku and Hachi are in then?

combatmedic
2008-09-04, 05:19 PM
Lords of Creation, its a game thats running on these forums, its another world building project where you play a god and make an organic and living timeline. We are about to enter into the second "Year" of the game, out of three

each year is a 12 week set, so, lots of time left

Also, Kenku and Hachi are in then?

So far as I am concerned, Kenku are in as a PC race. Hachi are in, but their PC status is still being discussed. I am for it. Let's see what everybody else thinks.

Ghal Marak
2008-09-04, 05:28 PM
So far as I am concerned, Kenku are in as a PC race. Hachi are in, but their PC status is still being discussed. I am for it. Let's see what everybody else thinks.

Perhaps they should be enemies? I can't see bird people and insect people getting along very well.

Infact, I can see where all the races would be mistrustful of any other race but their own.

About the Hachi being PCs... hm. I like how they don't get instant flying, they have to mature into it. Yeah, I'm for them as PCs.

EDIT: Oh, and about the Kobolds. I've only ever known the Draconic kind, but personaly I don't care either way. Fuzzy kobolds would be new. :smallsmile:

Innis Cabal
2008-09-04, 05:30 PM
Awsome, and ya, I can see the races being....even openly hostile toward each other save for large sprawling cities. Just random human village A though....your in trouble.

combatmedic
2008-09-04, 05:36 PM
Hostility between species is fine, but let's not take it so far that you cannot reasonably have a multispecies party. Perhaps some places are fairly cosmopolitan, and others are unaccepting of anything who looks too weird.

edit- Yeah, I guess you hit on that with the reference to ''sprawling cities.''

Ghal Marak
2008-09-04, 05:45 PM
Awsome, and ya, I can see the races being....even openly hostile toward each other save for large sprawling cities. Just random human village A though....your in trouble.

Not necessarily. The humans, to fit in a world as hazardous as this, would have to adapt a means to defend themselves from attacks in any direction. Spears and pole arms would definitely reign supreme over other close combat weapons (to keep things out of arms reach). Their fortifications would be nearly unmatched save the dwarves. Because when you have no natural means of excelling, you have to get innovative.

combatmedic
2008-09-04, 05:48 PM
Not necessarily. The humans, to fit in a world as hazardous as this, would have to adapt a means to defend themselves from attacks in any direction. Spears and pole arms would definitely reign supreme over other close combat weapons (to keep things out of arms reach). Their fortifications would be nearly unmatched save the dwarves. Because when you have no natural means of excelling, you have to get innovative.

Spears and polearms have a long history of widespread use [even battlefield dominance] in the real world. And that's without humans having to fight flying monsters, ogres, etc. Spears and polearms rock.

You'll need close combat weapons for going after dwarves and kobolds in their tunnels, though.

Innis Cabal
2008-09-04, 05:49 PM
i meant wandering into random village a and your in trouble

combatmedic
2008-09-04, 05:52 PM
i meant wandering into random village a and your in trouble

Roger that. There should probably be backwater areas where being of the wrong species can get you into all sorts of amusing trouble.

''Those wasp-folk will sting ya to death, just like a real wasp, only they are so big!''

''Kobolds took my baby!''

Innis Cabal
2008-09-04, 05:54 PM
Kobolds ate my baby.....

combatmedic
2008-09-04, 05:55 PM
Kobolds ate my baby.....

Actually, they may have. Nasty little guys!


The goblins, now, they just steal the babies and make them into new goblins.

''Dance , magic, dance!''

Innis Cabal
2008-09-04, 05:56 PM
I suddenly feel so very nerdy

Ghal Marak
2008-09-04, 05:58 PM
If I remember right, Kobolds ate my baby is actualy a game. And Labrynth was absolutly soul crushing for me to watch. :smallsigh:

combatmedic
2008-09-04, 05:58 PM
I suddenly feel so very nerdy

Hahaha, that must mean you got my reference to the movie.

Lyndworm
2008-09-04, 05:59 PM
I really like the Hachi, and I especially like how they have to "grow" into their flight capabilities. It makes me wonder whether or not you've seen the Raptoran, from Races of the Wild.

(Their flight abilities, for simplicity.)
Gliding – may move forward 20’ for each 5’ he/she descends. Affective “flying” speed is 40 with Average maneuverability. Also, falling damage is negated by gliding. May not be carrying more than a Light load.

Flight – at 5th level, the Raptoran can Fly 40’ with Average maneuverability for (Constitution modifier) consecutive rounds without becoming Fatigued. Most combine flying and gliding to stay airborne without becoming Fatigued (though this still occurs after 10 minutes per day of Flight). At 10th level, the Raptoran does not become Fatigued.

May make a Dive attack (i.e., a Charge) and “run” when flying.
Not that yours doesn't work, but it's rather close to official mechanics.

Anyhoo, I support the Hachi, but would like to point out that they don't really cover any of the archetype roles we were looking for.

Zack

Innis Cabal
2008-09-04, 06:02 PM
There is in fact a game called Kobolds ate my baby, and hence my reference, an absolutly awsome game mind you

How can you -not- like the Goblin King from that movie? Really?

And there is a reason for that Lyndworm, they are in fact similar, because i used them for the hachi

combatmedic
2008-09-04, 06:07 PM
There is in fact a game called Kobolds ate my baby, and hence my reference, an absolutly awsome game mind you

How can you -not- like the Goblin King from that movie? Really?

And there is a reason for that Lyndworm, they are in fact similar, because i used them for the hachi

Hmmmm, well , what if the hachi take the elf spot? I mean, they can be the nature oriented, magic using race. Give them short bows and we have mobile [flying!]a archers. The elder/uber race role is definitely filled by the giants, after all [NPCs, and rare in modern times].

combatmedic
2008-09-04, 06:09 PM
Hey guys, I'm going to have dinner with my wife and watch the Batman animated movie we rented last night. I'll be back later tonight. Please keep on with the discussion without me.

Innis Cabal
2008-09-04, 06:10 PM
Sounds good to me

Ghal Marak
2008-09-04, 06:12 PM
There is in fact a game called Kobolds ate my baby, and hence my reference, an absolutly awsome game mind you

How can you -not- like the Goblin King from that movie? Really?

And there is a reason for that Lyndworm, they are in fact similar, because i used them for the hachi

I like the Manga way more than I like the movie.

I still need to get a flying mechanic for my own flying races. :smallsigh: But I've been too lazy and spend my money before I can buy Races of the Wild to copy the mechanic out of it for my own purposes.

Innis Cabal
2008-09-04, 06:13 PM
Only got the first book for the manga, just....wasnt really all that impressed, i miss you Henson....we all miss you

Ghal Marak
2008-09-04, 06:17 PM
So, what are the Hachi hives like? Where would they build?

Lyndworm
2008-09-04, 06:20 PM
I imagine them building their hives in the eaves of ruined temples, keeping watch over the balance of the strange, fledgling ecosystems.

That and in giant forests, with 300ft+ trees.

Just a thought.

Zack

Ghal Marak
2008-09-04, 06:35 PM
Okay, so this is what we have so far. If I missed anything let me know and I'll correct it.

{table]Race Name|Yes|No|?
Dwarves| X||
Humans|X||
Elves||X|
Gnomes||X|
Halflings||X|
Half-Elves||X|
Half-Orcs||X|
Mushroom Folk|||X
Hachi|X||
Kenku|X||
Kobold|||X
Returned|X||
[/table]


I imagine them building their hives in the eaves of ruined temples, keeping watch over the balance of the strange, fledgling ecosystems.

That and in giant forests, with 300ft+ trees.

Just a thought.

Zack

Hmm... yeah, I can see that. Pretty cool.

So... is everything going to be huge? Like, Huge size cats and the like? Or will they have analogues.

Innis Cabal
2008-09-04, 06:46 PM
So, what are the Hachi hives like? Where would they build?

Much like paper wasps, like Lynd said and I said in a previous post, they will be builing in the high reachs of the ancient cities of the giants, if you saw, they are actual mammels, not insects just insectoid.

But think...large sprawling cities inside giant constructed walls, paper walls, giant defensive swarms.

combatmedic
2008-09-04, 08:27 PM
Okay, so this is what we have so far. If I missed anything let me know and I'll correct it.

{table]Race Name|Yes|No|?
Dwarves| X||
Humans|X||
Elves||X|
Gnomes||X|
Halflings||X|
Half-Elves||X|
Half-Orcs||X|
Mushroom Folk|||X
Hachi|X||
Kenku|X||
Kobold|||X
Returned|X||
[/table]



Hmm... yeah, I can see that. Pretty cool.

So... is everything going to be huge? Like, Huge size cats and the like? Or will they have analogues.


How do you guys feel about pleistocene critters- sabretooths, spotted lions, dire wolves, etc?

Innis Cabal
2008-09-04, 08:37 PM
I think they could work, espcially in the far reachs of the world,

combatmedic
2008-09-04, 08:49 PM
I think they could work, espcially in the far reachs of the world,

Yeah, in the really wild regions.

Giants who hunt with axebeaks? Think of a falconers hood on an axebeak. Spot game and release the birds. Of course, they don't fly, but they do run pretty fast!

Thurbane
2008-09-04, 09:19 PM
Just going to stick my 2 cents in here, without having read the whole thread...how about a jungle valley populated by "beast folk" (i.e. animalistic humanoids) - catfolk, lizardfolk, bullywugs, gnolls, ibixians etc.

combatmedic
2008-09-04, 09:23 PM
Just going to stick my 2 cents in here, without having read the whole thread...how about a jungle valley populated by "beast folk" (i.e. animalistic humanoids) - catfolk, lizardfolk, bullywugs, gnolls, ibixians etc.

Hmmmm....I dunno. That sounds fun, but it may or may not work with the setting as it stands now. I'll reserve judegment till the other guys weigh in.


Ibixians are LA +1? Or are they LA 0 ?

Innis Cabal
2008-09-04, 09:33 PM
That is another question, what will the climate be of the world at large? I highly doubt we need more then a single land mass considering the scale we are talking

combatmedic
2008-09-04, 09:38 PM
That is another question, what will the climate be of the world at large? I highly doubt we need more then a single land mass considering the scale we are talking

Zeta is making a map. One main continent and some large islands. Climate ranges from arctic to tropical. Most of the main landmass is probably temperate.

Innis Cabal
2008-09-04, 09:40 PM
Alright, sounds good

combatmedic
2008-09-04, 09:45 PM
It's southern hemipshere, so gets colder the further south ya go.

Innis Cabal
2008-09-04, 09:49 PM
Sounds good, probably throw the Hachi in less rainy area's, maybe near the plains

combatmedic
2008-09-04, 09:52 PM
Sounds good, probably throw the Hachi in less rainy area's, maybe near the plains

Grasslands, yeah. There are definitely giant ruins out there- it used to be their farmland and pasturage.

Innis Cabal
2008-09-04, 09:54 PM
That works great. Should I write up their main hive then?

combatmedic
2008-09-04, 09:55 PM
Yeah, I don't see why not. We've got to start someplace, We can always adjust things as needed, later.

Zeta Kai
2008-09-04, 09:58 PM
Here is the map for Giants in the Earth:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s228/zetakai/Giants.jpg

The top border is the equator (Latitude 0 degrees), while the bottom border is the antarctic circle (Latitude 66 degrees). The scale is 2,000 miles wide. River systems are normally not visible at this scale, but I may (time permitting) add guides to where the rivers are. This map was made in Photoshop CS3.

Innis Cabal
2008-09-04, 10:02 PM
Awsome, if possible the giant city the Hachi(and i would assume another race or two) could be placed between the gaint mountains

And awsome map there Zeta, do you take requests :P

Innis Cabal
2008-09-04, 10:08 PM
The Grand Hive- The Esteemed City of the Hachi
Ruler: Queen Ssxkixti
Metropolis
Main Exports: Hachi Jelly, Natueral products, ancient writings.

The Grand Hive is the central and single most important Hive for the entire Hachi race. Created in the far reaches of the most ancient and ruined city of the Giants whose name has been long lost to the annals of time, the paper walls bulge from the natural mason work, droves of guard Hachi flying in the air, hunting for food in the bird flocks that also make the giant city their home. Deep inside the paper walls, the buildings of the hachi hang, centralized on the Grand Chamber, where the Queen sits, laying eggs for new generations, and contemplates the natural world around her and her children.

Sites

The Barrows: The Central living area of the Hachi populous, centered around several large cracks in the giant ceiling, where rain water and condensation drip down, channeled by Hachi paper work to run like streams to the waiting city centers

Grand Chamber: The Grand Chamber is a massive complex that spirals deep into the ceiling, creating a massive tunnel structure, deep within the folds of the chamber, sits the bloated Queen, attended by the strongest Hachi warriors.

The Paper Walls: The Paper Walls are a natural construction owing to the spit and natural abilities of the Hachi to create structures from reprocessed wood and grain pulp. Though they are weak against fire, they are multi-tired affairs, made to receive blows and to deflect all but the most powerful of attacks

combatmedic
2008-09-04, 10:09 PM
Dwarves...

I like the idea of them as burrowers beneath the old cities. That's a cool image.

One thing I dislike is dwarves as all craftsmen and no farmers. What if building/repairing walls and such is communal labor for dwarves, so everybody has some experience with basic masonry? Like Amish barn raising, maybe?

Innis Cabal
2008-09-04, 10:10 PM
Bloody Amish.....

But sure, that works for me

combatmedic
2008-09-04, 10:14 PM
Bloody Amish.....

But sure, that works for me

Yeah. What about other dwarf stuff- languages, technology, religion,etc? I don't want subraces, but multiple cultures would be good.

Innis Cabal
2008-09-04, 10:15 PM
keep any real steampunk/tech out

Make this a mid magic setting but magic being very...pervasive if that makes sense. Not a whole ton of Archmages, but magic is a very powerful and present force

For Dwarves, make them differ by climate of where they dig and explore. Colder regions more hardy and hard, the deserts have them be more open and excepting

combatmedic
2008-09-04, 10:18 PM
keep any real steampunk/tech out

Make this a mid magic setting but magic being very...pervasive if that makes sense. Not a whole ton of Archmages, but magic is a very powerful and present force

For Dwarves, make them differ by climate of where they dig and explore. Colder regions more hardy and hard, the deserts have them be more open and excepting

Sounds good. Yeah, no need for steampunkery in this world. I'll save that for something else.